Why Is Everyone Talking About VAMP Rules? | Biz To Biz Podcast

Welcome to the Biz to Biz Podcast, your number one source for all business news. Hey everybody, welcome to B2B Vault. This is a special edition today and we're going to be talking with Mark from Disputifier about a hot subject that's being discussed all over the internet about chargebacks and the new rules, VAMP, vamp— not vampires, but vamp— from Visa on chargebacks. So we're going to dive in and talk to Mark Wagner from Disputifier, one of the top, uh, companies who helps merchants with chargeback alerts. And, uh, welcome to the show, Mark. This is probably like the third or fourth time I've had you on.

Yep.

And Chargebacks is a, uh, crazy, you know, a thing that merchants have to deal with. And, uh, let's dive in. So first, tell everybody a little bit about Disputifier.

Yeah, absolutely. So Disputifier is a platform that helps merchants to even the playing field because we felt that chargebacks were a very one-sided kind of equation where it heavily favors customers and it doesn't really favor small businesses that are doing the best they can. So we help merchants to automate the prevention of chargebacks as well as the recovery of chargebacks and, uh, just help you figure out kind of how to stay alive and stay ahead in this ever-evolving game that is, uh, that is chargebacks.

So how— let's dive in and let's give us like an overview, like what should— you know, is this only targeting these new rules high-volume merchants, or this is going to affect anybody in the, you know, non-card-present, you know, internet e-commerce? Like, how's that playing out?

Yeah, absolutely. So just to back up a bit, VAMP is exclusively designed for e-commerce merchants. It's designed to really throttle the amount of fraud going through the e-commerce ecosystem. However, it's really not necessarily something that is only going to impact enterprise merchants. Even though that's how the rules are written. So the rules are written right now in which you need 1,500 disputes in a single month to trigger. So you would think, oh, well, 99.99% of businesses are nowhere near that, they're going to be absolutely fine. However, it's worth kind of looking a little bit further down the line because the processors also have that same 1,500 minimum., and processors are going to have no problem whatsoever hitting that. So I think there's going to be a lot of downstream effects where these processors are now not only, you know, potentially doubling their thresholds because of what they've done, which we can dive into, but they've also reduced the percentage that they need to obtain in order to breach the dispute monitoring program, which again we'll dive into. But I mean, Short story here is processors now need to have less than 0.5% chargebacks. And if a merchant, despite them being small, has 1% chargebacks or 2% chargebacks, even if that merchant isn't triggering VAMP, it's going to obviously increase the processor's ratio. So I think every merchant needs to be a little bit worried, especially if you're doing e-commerce, especially if you're on a higher-risk processor, especially if you have slightly higher fraud ratio, slightly higher dispute ratio. It's just something everyone needs to be aware of. Everyone needs to be preparing for.

It's kind of crazy because— hey, Sean, does this belong to something? Oh, okay. Sorry. We'll cut that out. The, you know, the kind of crazy thing is I started in this business in 2000, you know, 2000, you know, 2000, 2001, started my company. The chargeback ratio at that point was 3%. Crazy, right? And then slowly went down like to 2%, and then it hit that 1% mark. And even today we'll get inquiries from merchants and they'll be like, oh yeah, you know, can you withstand 8%? 8%? I mean, it's not even, it's not even doable anymore from that, from that standpoint. And there are merchants out there whose chargeback ratios have forced them to, you know, RDR and automatically refund people. And even CDRN and Ethica alerts, people are set, merchants are setting to automatically refund people. But I think those are also counted or were going to be counted in the VAMP, correct?

Yeah, so let's talk through it because they flip-flopped a couple times and they just announced like 2 weeks ago they were updating it again. And basically what they're doing now is they're going to kind of double count a fraud chargeback. So whenever a fraud chargeback gets filed, there's the initial notice that's called a TC40, right? And that just tells them, hey, we think this is fraud, but that's not an actual chargeback.. And then following that, there's typically an actual chargeback that gets filed. So you'll have two things. You'll have the fraud notice and the dispute notice that gets filed. So the alert can remove the dispute notice, but it can't remove the fraud notice, which is why earlier I was like, some of these processors, their ratios just doubled because, you know, they're changing the goalposts and now they're saying like, hey, fraud dispute counts twice. Haha, sucks to suck, use RDR. You know, like that's, that's essentially what, what the message is right now. So it means that RDR is no longer like that, that silver bullet that's going to just, you know, reduce your ratio to zero. And a lot of merchants and processors need to start thinking about, you know, actual fraud prevention, actual mitigation, actually getting ahead of these problems versus just kind of like sweeping them all under the rug with RDR.

Yeah, I don't, I don't really think there's enough being done on the card issuing side, you know, and everything's being piled on top of the merchants and the processors, and nothing is being required of the card issuers. Like, why aren't the card issuers forced to send out text messages and give people codes? Like, the other day was— I was making a purchase for some airline tickets, and yeah It popped up and it said, oh, you're going to get a code from your bank.

Yep.

And I had to put the code in. I mean, that should be done like on every single transaction.

Yeah.

So that's really, you know, obviously someone could clone a phone, but I think that's, you know, I think we have to start, you know, the, you know, Visa and MasterCard and American Express and Discover need to start thinking about like, okay, how are we going to help merchants in all of this. And I don't even know if— because really, like, the, the merchant can't force some kind of text message. The processor can't force a text message. No authentication. I mean, 3D Secure was supposed to do that, but that proved to not be so reliable.

Yep, yep. Yeah, 3D Secure is likely, I would guess, what that text message was, but As we know, I mean, they haven't really done much with 3D Secure recently in the US. These rules have nothing to do with 3D Secure. They don't mention it anywhere, which is obviously concerning for all the 3D Secure companies out there, right? That being said, you know, maybe it is somewhat of a more viable program as merchants look to just reduce fraud at all costs. But, you know, I could go into 3D Secure all day. It's, it's unfortunately also not the silver bullet. You know, it's just maybe one thing to consider. Together. But I absolutely agree. I mean, there is nothing that says these issuers can't just file a TC-40 on every single transaction. And, you know, some of them do to some extent, right? Like, some of these guys are just sending fraud notices, fraud notices, fraud notices, and they may not even send chargebacks along with those, which is super concerning because that means merchants and processors, if they're exceeding thresholds, They're going to pay for something that's not even a chargeback. Like, how does that make any sense? Um, the fees are pretty weird.

It's really weird. We've been seeing a lot of— a lot more retrieval requests coming in. Yeah, right. And then the retrieval request comes in like we saw. I saw— I got today, I see a chargeback. The original retrieval request was in the end of April. Here we are approaching the end of May, 30 days later. Over 30 days from the original, um, request, and now it's turned into a chargeback. Yeah, and I don't understand. They're like, oh, show— merchant needs to, um, provide proof of, of EMV, you know, that they read the chip. I don't understand. The issuer can see that the chip was read, so why are they asking the merchant for proof? Yep, like the same thing they say on an e-commerce transaction. Oh, provide proof of positive AVS and CVV2. Okay, they know that, they can see that. This is like part of the game that I don't understand, you know.

Yep, it's like there needs to be a better system for it, especially as they go in and they change all the rules again, and then they haven't actually built the infrastructure to support the new rules. I mean, there's a, there's a lot of things that should be changed with it. But yeah, I suppose that's why, that's why there's so many chargeback providers such as us out there. It's like, you know, the system is broken and we're just trying to do our best to fix it.

So are you guys at Disputify, are you offering some fraud tools now that merchants can install into their, onto their websites?

Yeah, absolutely. So we do offer fraud prevention tools, which essentially helps scan every single order. It finds any signs of risk, and then you can automate cancellations or customer verifications. And this I think is going to be, I mean, probably mandatory across most of our merchants because they just can't afford to let any true fraud slip through. But the hard part is the friendly fraud, which means, you know, real customer just kind of abusing the chargeback system. If I order something from you and I'm like, eh, don't really want to pay for this, and I just call up my bank, there's not really a way to stop that. I mean, sure, we have databases, we can find problematic customers, but It's just a lot more difficult to find that than if I steal your credit card and go buy something off Amazon. You know, they're two completely separate things. And with one, I mean, it's very easy to find, and with the other, it's, it's not very easy to find. And if you do end up refunding all those customers, you could be refunding real people. So it's, uh, it's a, it's a tough dynamic because in the US, you know, so many people just abuse the chargeback system. So That's not fraud and that shouldn't go against merchants. But unfortunately it does because everyone just groups it under this whole, this whole fraud category. But there's multiple different types of fraud of which I feel, you know, Visa needs to take notice and start segmenting these programs out. But clearly they just, you know, don't care that much about doing so.

The thing is, this is like also like if people are doing a bunch of RDRs on a merchant, You don't know. You could be in some dark web. They could be in— these guys can be in a dark web chat room, on a Discord, on a Reddit thread. Hey, order from XYZ company, do a chargeback, they refund everybody. And then the next thing you know, merchant gets hit with a whole bunch of, you know, friendly type fraud of different, different from, from all, from all over the place. Because whatever, they're all of a sudden this hole in their, uh, system is exposed on the dark web somewhere.

Yeah, I mean, that's what a lot of people say. I've never understood the argument though, because if I go charge back from you, I get my money immediately, and then the merchant has to fight for it back. And typically, as a consumer, I never really see the back end of that. Like, I, I never really know if the merchant's gonna fight it or not. So I think it almost comes down to the card issuers. Like, if your customers have more than like a 1% chargeback rate, then why don't you enforce that just like you would for a merchant? You know, like there, there needs to be some sort of just, you know, rules that you can't just charge back 5% of your transactions or whatever because clearly you're not legitimate. Just like a business, if you have 5% chargeback rate and you're a customer, so Yeah, I mean, I think it's, um, it's something that needs to be enforced on both sides. And right now it's just enforced again, still, it's a very one-sided thing that hurts small businesses and has no recourse for customers that abuse the system.

Well, you see like large retailers, you know, like Target, Kohl's, Walmart, when you go return, they want you to give a driver's license. And if someone's an excessive returner, You know, you get really like raked over the coals before you can make a, you know, get a, do a return. And in the stores, they're really, they monitor like, oh, is this person over, you know, abusing the return system? Yep. And, um, you know, I don't know, this is what I always, never, I never feel like they treat the, the merchants are all true, we're true, they're treated like criminals, right? Right. And the cardholder just gets a free pass.

Exactly.

Yeah, you know, like when you were saying you get your money back, that's why I always tell friends of mine, like, don't charge stuff like that. You don't charge stuff on a debit card because debit is not treated— even though it's going through as a credit transaction, it takes way longer for your bank to give you back your money through a debit transaction. So if you're going to charge, you know, charge, just charge on regular credit card because, like you said, you get your money back and then, you know, and, and that's it. You know, the money's back. And if they rule not in your favor, then you got to pay the money, obviously.

Yeah.

But with debit, it could take, you know, up to— it could take weeks before you get your credit back.

Yeah, absolutely. Plus, that cashback's nice, you know.

Yeah, cashback is nice, and some points and miles. Oh yeah, as long as you have the system and you know you're going to them up, you know. Yeah. Otherwise take the cash back. That's my—

Absolutely. I agree.

So what's the— what's the— is there an additional fee from— and not like— I don't know, there's other chargeback companies. I don't know exactly what their offerings are as far as fraud tools, but what kind of fees do you guys have when it comes to fraud tools?

Yeah, for sure. So our fraud tool is just per order scanned. This covers our costs, like kind of loaded into our database. Analyze the order, etc. So that's just a fee per transaction scan. Typically it's about $0.05 per order. We're doing some volume discounts on very large merchants, but yeah, it's about $0.05 per order, which is pretty competitive in the market.

You know, it's a lot less than most of the tools. And what's it, an easy install process? Just so—

absolutely. Uh, we don't even need a code snippet for most of it because we already integrate to most of the backends, most of the gateways and CRMs and stuff. So yeah, we're working on a lot more integrations, but if it's a supported integration already, it's basically you just click a button and it's active.

Oh, really cool. You'll have to send me a list.

Yeah, absolutely.

Let our clients know because it's super important. We'll include it in the podcast notes when we put out the podcast. No, it's super important, you know, that because I think now when, when the onus is back on the merchants, you know, you have to kind of figure out like, okay, what am I going to do? And not every gateway has fraud tools built into it. And then, you know, you have to go out and get other tools, you know, on the side. So it's important to figure out what— how you're going to— how you're going to approach this. I talk to merchants every day and I'm like, okay, well, how are you going to go— how are you gonna deal with this? And how are you gonna deal with that? And why, you know, and a lot of them, they just roll the dice. Yeah. And then we were talking when we first got on, we were talking about two other things that all plays into this whole, you know, chargeback world, is the FTC, you know, has their hard rule on click to cancel. You must have a cancellation button on your website or you will be— you can get up to a $55,000 fine for not having a click to cancel.

Per occurrence, I believe, right?

Yeah, per occurrence, $55,000 up to— I mean, that's just crazy. And also California has their own rule, so you could get— if you sold to somebody in California or you're located in California, you could get hit by both agencies. And then the FTC came out with their first round on the negative option, which I say is way overdue., you know, all these free trials, especially in the higher risk merchant categories of Nutra diet and things like that. And I think that's going to really, combined with the VAMP rules and the click to cancel, this is going to, this is going to create a big, uh, I don't know what, a big learning curve. For merchants that are— that are in this. They're gonna have to come up with a game plan, right? Yeah, absolutely. How do you see that playing out?

You know, I think it's very well-intentioned for sure. Some could argue like some of this regulation has already existed, such as like Rosca, you know, dating back decades, I believe. But, um, I personally think it's a, it's a good premise. Like, it's a good conceptualization to protect the consumer. Absolutely. I support it. You know, clearly VAMP is targeted towards higher-risk processors that have a book that's not necessarily balanced and maybe supporting some of these, these higher-risk businesses. I think in general, you know, some businesses are still going to choose to roll the dice, meaning that they're risking obviously serious fines, they're risking regulation. Often these business owners are not even in the United States, though, so they just don't care, you know. But I think in general, it's, it's great. However, I think that as with everything, you know, when you make these sweeping regulatory changes and changes like in terms of VAMP, you're impacting not only, you know, the problem merchants, but you're also impacting the regular merchants too. Because, for example, let's just say I sell, I sell backpacks online, right? Totally normal business. And my processor is in VAMP because their chargeback thresholds have doubled because Visa is now double counting them. And they went from a 0.4% ratio to a 0.8% ratio. So now they're getting assessed an $8 fee, but that'll also be $16 for any fraud chargebacks. And they're of course going to mark that up. So it's going to be $30, but that doesn't take away the initial chargeback fee. So it's going to be another $25. So that's $55 per fraud chargeback now. And that gets applied to me even though I'm not breaching because my processor is breaching. So now as a small business selling backpacks, I'm now paying $55 per chargeback because of some new rules Visa made that have absolutely nothing to do with me because I sell backpacks.

Okay.

I just feel like, you know, I love the changes. I love the thought behind the changes. I hate the execution.

Yeah, that's one thing. One of the processors we work with that does e-commerce, we have the merchants when we're boarding them, it says, oh, low-risk retrieval request, high-risk retrieval request, low-risk retrieval, low-risk chargeback price, high-risk chargeback price. Yeah. Yeah. And it's— and also we see, you know, processors like Stripe who never charged anybody for chargebacks. Yeah. Now is saying they're going to charge— first they said they're going to charge $15. Now they came out and said they're charging $30. And that could go higher because of the incredible—

yeah, so it's— I, I think it's going to go higher too. I think it's $30 now. I think in a couple of months we could be talking $45 plus. And the worst part is they're just trying to funnel them into their own products, right? So Stripe is now, you know, they're offering their own solutions to deal with disputes, and then they're kind of waiving fees, if you will, if you use those dispute programs. But it really just means they're switching out the fee for something else that they make more profit on. But still, I mean, I mean, they're clearly charging more for disputes. They're finding ways to monetize it. And it is what it is. You can't blame them as a business. But I think we will see chargeback fees across the industry get way, way more expensive in the next couple of months.

I do see that. I do see Stripe shutting down quite a bit of quite a lot of merchants as I monitored like chat rooms on Reddit. And you see a lot of people complaining, oh, I got a— they got a couple of chargebacks. But I think they're also monitoring— I think they're also monitoring things like, are these business owners really in the US, not in the US, things like that. And looking at where are these people banking, right? Where, where are they banking? And, you know, are these bank accounts legitimate? Is the signer legitimate? I mean, there's just a lot going on. I mean, we see an immense amount of fraud. Like, when we get in internet leads, uh, I would say— it's bad to say this, but 8 out of 10 applications that come in are not real. They're not, they're not real merchants. Plus, we can see their IP address and the IP is located outside the US. We block a lot of countries, but they use, you know, VPNs and get around that. But you can still see their, their geolocation with our software. So we go, oh no, you're in whatever, some country we're not gonna— you're not— and you're not a real— or they spoof another business, but it's, you know, It's, it's, it's happening. I feel bad for the merchants. And, you know, so if merchants— if you're a merchant, you're listening to this and you're worried about chargebacks, you can contact me at Nationwide Payment Systems. We can get you, you know, a consultation going about chargebacks and look at your whole situation and make recommendations on fraud tools, on chargebacks. I think every merchant needs to look at, especially if you're e-com or you're key-entering transactions, I think you have to definitely start. If you have any type of, you know, chargeback issue, I think you have to definitely— if you're not using a tool today, you need to use a tool. And, you know, one of the things I always say is lacking in the industry is nobody's really come out with a tool for card-present merchants. To use. And that, and that's sad that because we see a lot of abuse going on because people will just do a chargeback. And sometimes I think they just hope that maybe the merchant doesn't respond to them, like at a restaurant or something. Maybe they don't respond, you know. And that's kind of sad. Like I said, I think I think it's time for Visa to, uh, let's lobby Visa. It's time for Visa to— Mastercard, all the car brands to put— I think in Europe everything is a— you have— they send a text message, right?

Yeah, everything's 3DS mandated in Europe, but you do that in the US and your approval rates go down. So it's like, it's a really interesting dynamic at play for sure.

Why do you see in European merchants with the— their approval rates are down in the— on, on e-com?

If they're mandating 3DS in the US, then absolutely, yeah. Because a lot of people have abused that system, a lot of high-risk merchants. So again, it's like, you know, you got a couple bad apples and then you make sweeping changes, and then the good guys get caught up in that. So, uh, that applies to 3DS as well.

Yeah, that's kind of crazy, but It's, it's, it's very— I think it's interesting about, you know, what can be done. What's your suggestion of how to fix it? Do you have a thought?

I mean, I think every merchant needs to just understand where they're at, which unfortunately is very, very difficult right now. Like, you can't log into your processor and see your vamp ratio at the moment, right? So, right, we're working with some processors to enable that, but right now, I mean, it's like try to know where you're at, you know, try to get an understanding. Assume it's your chargeback rate plus 40%, you know, maybe a little bit more. And then make sure you have some good fraud tools, not like decline if the CVV is incorrect, but like actual good fraud tools, ideally like AI-powered fraud tools. And then just, you know, kind of understand where your, where your chargebacks are coming from. Is it due to subscriptions? Is it due to You know, unclear delivery times, like what could be causing that? And then ultimately just try to diagnose and fix whatever issues are causing the chargebacks. But I think that's kind of step number one. And if you're still having difficulty after doing that, then absolutely go talk with Allen, go talk with myself, go find an expert that can help you to truly diagnose what the issue may be and then try to resolve that the best way possible.

Yeah, I don't know if there's that many AI tools out there looking at fraud right now. Somebody probably needs to develop one.

Yeah, yeah, there's a handful, but I, I agree. I mean, it's necessary for, I think, every card not present business heading into, uh, heading into VAMP.

Yeah. What do you think about like the affiliate marketing? How is that— how do you think that's going to get impacted?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for the higher risk stuff, it's going to be, it's going to be a lot more difficult. It's going to be a lot more expensive. They're going to get even lower margins. And then again, they're just running insane regulatory risks from like, you know, the regulation that you were referring to previously. So I think that it's definitely changing. You know, it's not what it was 10 or 15 years ago. And a lot of these people are kind of pivoting into like lead generation and that kind of stuff, which is, is certainly interesting to see. You know, I think generally whatever is good for the customer is good for the overall environment. But I think the affiliate game is going to continue to look more and more different as we extrapolate this out and see how every processor is kind of reacting to it. That's not to say it doesn't exist or won't exist. But I think that the way it's done is going to look a little bit different for sure.

Yeah. So if you want to find out more about how you can— how VAMP could affect your business, you can reach out to myself. You can reach out to Mark. You can find us on LinkedIn. Mark posts a lot about chargebacks on there. We've been in a few discussions on different posts with different people about it, and it's It's interesting. I don't see that many merchants chiming into it yet anyway, because they might be looking at it. I think other, you know, I saw somebody once that showed me a monitoring tool where they actually monitor how the traffic was coming into different websites, like how their affiliate traffic was coming in. And then they rate it by like, oh, this one. Has too many chargebacks. This one, yeah, good traffic, bad traffic. Then they have to like cut those people off. I think people are going to need— merchants are going to need more sophisticated tools in order to maintain, maintain this. I don't think those tools exist on a hot— like exist right now where you can just go out and find 5 or 10 of them. Right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Somebody, some, maybe some of these AI guys will figure out, uh, oh, I need to develop this AI tool to detect, um, detect fraud. And here we are, right? Yeah. And Mark seems, Mark says he has something. I wonder if a couple of my clients that use Mark are using that already. And probably if they're not, they probably need to because it's definitely something that has to be looked at. And, you know, and also, you know, when Mark's saying like, oh, $1,500, right? You also have to think about your business and like when you're going, okay, well, I'm going to scale this business, right? Well, when you're going to scale the business, this is the time when you put all these tools to use, not after you go, okay, now I'm doing $500 grand a month. Now I need to figure it out. You're not going to get to the $500,000 a month mark or the $100,000 a month mark because you're going to get hammered from different— with different things, right? So you have to think about this from like, oh, I'm starting my business or I have my business now in place and I want to grow and these things are holding me back. How am I going to fix this? And this is, you know, you have to take those steps. And I think a lot of merchants, entrepreneurs, you know, skip over those steps. But I think now it's completely necessary to put those steps in place. So put those tools in place so that you can grow and you can grow at the pace that you want to grow at. And all of a sudden, you know, you know, I've had clients come and all of a sudden they're growing and then all of a sudden, oh, boom, there's a chargeback. Oh, there's this, there's— oh, shipping wasn't explain correctly to the person. And I think that's another thing we're going to see processors crack down on is making sure merchants have shipping times and they're giving people tracking numbers and all that. And it's available, you know, making it available on their websites to, to, to better communicate. Because I think when merchants better communicate to their clientele.

Absolutely.

Then they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna get, have less problems. And I think, you know, absolutely, yeah, merchants have to concentrate on how fast can I get this delivered to somebody. People aren't going to wait 60 days to get a product.

Yeah, for sure. It's all that communication. And then of course, like you said, definitely not, you know, taking 60 days to deliver something. But if you do, you know, there's a way to do it, and most merchants aren't doing it that way.

Yeah, you got to think about your policies on your website, checkboxes on the checkout page. You know, that's something we review with people when they come to us. They give us their website. We review like, oh, you need to know, you need a checkbox for this policy, for that policy. You need this. Like they're really cracking down on, like you said, higher risk businesses. Like they want people to have like an age checker on the checkout page now. For different products so that the person has to like take their picture, hold up their driver's license and prove that they're over 21 to buy those products.

Yeah.

So it's, it's, it's getting it. It's getting very, very, very interesting. Also, that is going to help with the chargeback to somebody holding up their driver's license.

Right.

And getting their picture taken by, you know, AgeChecker or Persona or one of those, you know, authenticators. You're going to be able to send that in and go, yeah, well, this guy was totally authentic. This person was totally authenticated. So that's going to help you defend chargebacks too. Again, it adds cost, but I think people have to look at, you know, what's a good, you know, how much is this going to cost versus am I, am I going to go out of business?

Right. Yeah, absolutely. That's one way to put it. And then you also got to balance friction too. You know, does your conversion rate go down if you do all these different security measures? And everyone has their own balance, you know, that's why I think it's good to some extent that not everything is mandated across the industry, but it leaves room for merchants to figure out what's right for them and, you know, take calculated risks, if you will, and just try to balance security with obviously, you know, profit as well.

Right. And, you know, and processors are going to force merchants to put these things in place. Over time. It's not going to happen tomorrow, but they're going to force it. And then consumers are going to say, oh, well, I went to this website, they made me do this. Now I went to another website, I maybe do the same thing, so, oh, no big deal. And they're just going to get used to it. But I think we're going to see more and more of this authentication on checkout for certain products that are age-restricted.

Yeah, absolutely.

Think we're just going to see a lot, a lot of different things coming up. And, you know, merchants need to think about, hey, do you want to end up in a, you know, on the front page— well, not the front page of the newspaper, but on Facebook or LinkedIn or somewhere on Google. Oh, XYZ Merchant sold to underage kids or whatever. Yep. It's getting tough even in, even in retail, right? We look— when we sell to liquor stores and smoke shops, we tell them like, you have to get this age verification. Piece on your, on your POS system so that you're age verifying every single person. And that just keeps you out of the, out of the loop with the, with the, with the authorities.

Yeah, absolutely.

Nobody wants them knocking on their door.

Indeed, indeed.

FTC, the police, etc., etc., right?

No, absolutely.

All right, so that's our podcast today about VAMP and what's going on with Visa and chargebacks. It's getting crazy. Do you think we're going to see— before we sign off, do you think we're going to see any more updates or they're done?

Probably. Yeah, I think we will. I think we will. It's scheduled to— penalties are scheduled to start the end of September. And, you know, we still have quite a bit of time. So I think they're going to continue to monitor to figure it out and Perhaps they will, they will change some things because I don't really think it's sitting too, too nicely right now. So yeah, and maybe we'll do another podcast talking about the new updates.

We'll keep everybody updated. But I think now's the time. If you're going to put things in place, now's the time to start thinking about, okay, let's make— let's get educated and make a good educated choice on what to do. So thank you for listening to B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz podcast. Sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems. Thank you to our guest, Mark Wagner from Disputifier. He's been a frequent guest on the show. We always appreciate Mark giving his expertise on this area of chargebacks, and I hope everybody got to learn something today. And peace out, carpe diem, and everybody, let's make some money out there. Go entrepreneurs, right?

Oh yeah.