From Unfocused to Thriving: An Attorney's Journey to Finding Her Place

I think the online space is now evolving to be more like quote unquote, the real world. Right. I think whether it is because more people are here, the impact of COVID but I think people want to talk, they want the real relationships, they want the events, they want the retreats, they want to be treated well. So I do think businesses that go a little bit above and beyond in terms of customer service are the ones that are remembered.

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Amber McHugh here and I am pumped for the conversation we are going to have today with sarah from destination legal.com she's an attorney for coaches and online business owners and she's got a super cool story after being at a law firm for several years. Maybe you can relate to this and a few career jumps. She ended up falling in love with online business and she helps entrepreneurs online get protected from a legal perspective. Wife a traveler, food wine lover and when not at her computer she's with the kids, having wine with friends, flying around the globe and connecting with other online business owners just like she is today with me and you in this conversation here. We cover the gamut here so we did something fun. We just followed the right on time moments and the conversation. We're going to start with a little travel conversation. I'm curious, have you been to the places we're talking about or is one of these your favorite too? And we're going to end the conversation about pricing, client services and AI and what you need to think about from a legal perspective when it comes to AI. So this is going to be fun and it's going to be practical and you're going to get some something incredible out of this for your life and your business. So great to hang out with you. Let's get Sarah in here. Sarah from Destination Legal, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

Oh my gosh, I'm so pumped to be hanging out with you. You know, we just very briefly and we. I promise we saved all the good stuff for the live conversation because we just barely touched on the fact that we both have quite the travel bug.

A hundred percent. I feel like we could talk about this forever. Yeah.

I love it. What's your favorite place that you have traveled to?

This is a question that I have gotten a lot and I cannot pick one. I'm gonna give you three. Is that okay? I'll take it.

Yeah.

So one of my favorite places and I lived there for almost a year is India. I have, like a love hate relationship with India. I love it so much. It's also one of the hardest places to travel. At least for me it was Santorini. Greece is definitely top of the list. And then my family, we frequent Aruba. And so the beaches of Aruba are just have like a soft spot in my heart.

Oh, my gosh. I went to Aruba in spring of 2022. I think it was one part Christmas present, one part 20th anniversary present.

Wow.

Oh, my gosh. We stayed at Overwater Bungalows.

Oh, yes. So I've probably been there 12 times. We go there basically every other year. Although it's always family. So maybe my husband and I should go sometime, just the two of us.

Oh, my gosh. It was amazing. It was amazing. So I know you spent time in Africa. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah.

Okay. Where in Africa did you visit?

So I have been. I mean, I've been around, so I've been to Kenya, Tanzania, Rwanda, Uganda. I did an African safari, which is one of my favorite experiences ever. I've also been to Egypt and Tunisia and South Africa.

So quite a few places I'm drilling in even more. Did you go to Cape Town?

I didn't go to Cape Town. So I was there for work. So I was. We went to Pretoria and Johannesburg. So Cape Town is, like, on my wish list. I feel like if I went there, I would fall in love and just be like, okay, we're moving here.

Exactly. That's why I asked. Because when you shared your favorite list, I'm like, she's got to have Cape Town on there.

Yeah.

And because I know you spend time in Africa. We were just talking to friends. We just got back from Morocco.

They were.

They're going to Egypt. They had been to Morocco, and Morocco was like, more than I expected. I mean, I had pretty great expectations. I'm like, oh, it's Morocco. It's going to be great. But I. I didn't think beyond that because I've just Been in a busy season. It wasn't really thinking through it. Oh, man. But we got there. Loved it. Lisbon is high on our list, but I think Cape Town still, like, takes our number one spot as a family.

Wow, that's good to know. Yeah. Morocco. We thought about Morocco for our honeymoon and didn't end up doing that. But it's definitely on the list, too.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good trip. That's a good trip. I got. I've got a great travel agent. Anybody's looking for one to make that trip happen. You traveled a lot. You have lived abroad. What took you abroad?

So, you know, to back it up a little bit, I did not like being a lawyer. Right. So I started out in Washington, D.C. at a law firm. And really quickly I realized this was not the path for me. I had no desire to be in a corner office. I had no desire to work 70 or 80 hours a week. I had no desire to bill my time and, you know, 15 minute increments. And so after a couple years, I knew I wanted to do something more. And so I actually looked into the Peace Corps and like, how can I travel? What else can I do? I ended up going back to school for my master's in public health and then eventually ended up working in global health and international health regulations, like, this really small area. And actually, what I did primarily, it's interesting to think about now, I worked on implementation of a treaty called the International Health Regulations, which is all about, like, biosurveillance and biosecurity, but with the idea of helping other countries prepare their early warning detection systems for a pandemic. Right. So this was, you know, a decade before we had ever heard of COVID but that's what we were doing. We were helping ministries of health and small governments kind of make sure that they had the proper testing in place. And what if there is an outbreak, how can we control it, and who do we alert, what's a chain of command, and all that stuff. And so I primarily did that in Southeast Asia, the Middle east, and Africa. While I love doing that, and I love getting to travel, for me, getting to travel for three months out of the year and then spending nine months in a windowless office writing reports that nobody ever read was still not enough for me. So even though I quote, unquote, had my dream job, I wasn't happy. And so that's when I really started looking for my next step. And that's when I found the world of online business, which I didn't even know Existed. Wow.

How incredible. So you were working in corporate. Corporate sort of style. And what was, was that. Where were you based when you were doing that?

So I was in D.C. i was actually working at a, At a think tank and then I was at a. But you know, any night I feel like any 9 to 5, it's corporate enough, right? No matter what it is.

Exactly. Yeah. Unless it's like itty bitty company, maybe we can go like mom and pop vibes. But yeah, I agree. It's got that feel. And then you go abroad and. So did you come back from that job looking for something else or did you transition right. From being overseas working and that dynamic to being in the online business world?

So it was not a smooth transition. I ended up back living with my parents because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I left my nine to five and I spent two weeks on an island in the Philippines learning how to build an online business from these two dudes who had a podcast. Right. And, you know, I'm still friends with them to this day. They're amazing. They run this whole community of digital nomads. Like, I learned so much from them. And so I left that, like, oh, you know, in two months I'm going to have this amazing online business making like thousands of dollars a month. It didn't quite turn out that way. Right. And actually it was a good three years until I really had found my niche with destination legal and settled in. You know, I, for a little bit, I ran a dropship E commerce store and I was doing, you know, digital marketing for other E commerce stores and living in Chiang Mai, Thailand, and just like trying to do the digital nomad thing. But it, it was not overnight. And in the meantime, I was still consulting for my previous employer. I was still, like, trying to pay the bills. It wasn't really until 2015, 2016 that I dove all into the legal stuff.

Wow, I'm obsessed with that journey.

Yeah. You know, I fought it for a long time because I didn't like being a lawyer, but the more coaches and online business owners I met, they kept asking me these questions, like, do I need a privacy policy and what about my contract and how do I trademark? And all of these questions. And I knew I wanted to help because there really wasn't a resource. I certainly didn't want them to have to go to a, you know, old white man law firm and pay thousands of dollars for a contract. And I knew they wouldn't do that anyway. And so that's kind of how, like, the template shop was born out of, you know, wanting to provide this service for this community of, of business owners and coaches that really needed it.

Oh, my gosh. This is so cool. So you said you were in the Philippines in the digital nomad community. Two awesome dudes in a podcast. I love it. Were there for about three months.

You said no. So I was there for just a couple weeks and actually started my first online business, which was called the Bootstrap Lawyer. And it was like, all about helping bootstrapping entrepreneurs. But I wasn't really ready yet. I was so new, I didn't really understand digital marketing or what I was doing. And at that time, online legal was very new. It was all, you know, how do we do this? Can we do this? There weren't a lot of examples. So I did that for a little bit and then I kind of backed off and, you know, did some other things. And then, you know, during this time, I was living at home. My parents were like, get a job. I was like, eh. So then I bought a one way ticket to Thailand. I knew some people there. And so I was like, I'm just gonna go be, you know, this is the manifestation, right? I'm gonna go be around the people that are doing what I want to do, you know. And once I got there, I traveled for, you know, a year and a half, kind of with this group of digital nomads. And that's where, you know, the business kind of started. And eventually I decided I was done traveling. I wanted to meet my future husband. And it's kind of hard to do that as a digital nomad. I know people do it, but I was having trouble. So I came back to the States and it was good because it allowed me to, yes, meet my husband, but also just focus on one thing, you know, I don't know if you found this. I feel like maybe you guys do more slow travel, but when you're traveling every six weeks, you're always like, what's the next spot? And, you know, you spend so much time on Airbnb and where am I going to live? And, you know, it's hard to put in the hours to build a business when you're doing all of that.

It really is. We've had a couple of seasons where we've had to hop around a lot. And if your mindset's ready, it is doable. But there becomes a point where like, okay, all right. I can remember exactly what was happening when I had my first meltdown. And it was months in, like. And it was one good meltdown. I'm like, okay, I'm calling Uncle no more on this. Because, yeah, it does get exhausting. One of the things that I really appreciated in that season where we were hopping around every few weeks was being able to just open my laptop. Like, I got really good at. I can work literally anywhere. And people would comment on that. They're like, whoa, you just sat down. You're gonna start working? I'm like, yeah, I'm good. They're like, can you hear them? Nope, can't hear a thing. I go in my zone.

I'm good.

As long as I have a place to sit and the laptop, I can get in the zone. So I got pretty good at that.

Yeah, that's amazing.

Oh, I am just so in awe of this journey and in that time. So you are reflecting what we know to be true when we move down a new path. You know, you. You've got this calling, you've got this idea hypothesis, this nudge that this is where I need to be going and I need to start to make some shifts in my life. And you said it took a little while to really get grounded in destination legal. Can you tell us what that process was like, around getting grounded and, like, okay, when you had that feeling of, I think this is working?

Yeah, absolutely. I remember it so clearly because the previous, you know, six months, I had been kind of trying to do legal and also kind of trying to do some business coaching and meld everything together, and it wasn't really working. Like, I was unfocused, and people were coming to me, but they wanted the legal. And there was a point where there was no. There was, like, no money, and I had to ask my parents to help with rent, and my dad was sending me, like, contacts in law firms. I was living in Chicago at the time, and I was, like, brushing up my resume, and I just felt this huge, like, pit in my stomach. This is very fresh because I actually was just interviewed for an article talking about this moment, and I knew that I'm like, there's no way I can go back to a nine to five at this point. Like, no. And so at the time, I was starting to really be in the coaching world. I had thought for a minute that I might want to be a holistic health coach. And I was like, you know, had some business coaches, and I just found this whole new world that I didn't know existed. And once I put myself out there with some new legal offers, I started getting interest and within a month I had like several clients. I had made, you know, a few thousand dollars. And it was almost like the universe was telling me, if you go all in on this, like, this is going to work. And so I did. And then within, you know, six or seven months, I hit my first 10k month. And then it just grew and evolved from there.

Oh, wow, okay. You were getting signs. If you go all in, like, okay, I gotta do this. Am I really gonna commit to this? And you created new offers, so it's interesting. What were your offers previously like?

So it was kind of a, you know, I had thought, do you need a contract? I'll do this. And then, you know, we can talk about some business strategy. And I was doing some coaching and then I came up with this offer called let's get legal, which doesn't exist anymore. And it's so funny, like what I charged for it then and what I would charge for it now, but it was basically like a starter bundle for a new coach. So it included their one on one contract and then everything they would need for their website. And I sold it for $1300. And you know, that was the first, you know, real destination legal offer. And then from there the template shop was born. So once I really knew, did a lot of these contracts, I was like, I can sell these as templates more affordable for, you know, coaches and service providers and health coaches. And, you know, since then we've grown to over 30 templates depending on what the businesses need. I didn't love being a lawyer to this day, don't love sitting around talking about privacy policies. So what I really had to do was change my mindset around it. And my first coach really helped me with this because it was like, I also had real guilt around charging because I was like, this is so easy for me. I can draft a contract and. But she was like, but they can't, right? And you went to law school and paid, you know, six figures for this. And so I now love it because I know what legally protecting your business does for these women and these coaches that I'm helping. And so helping them protect their passion. One of my trademarks to this day is protect your passion. Like helping them grow and get legally protected, feel more empowered and confident so that they can spread their gifts. Like, that's what excites me. Right? It's not like the nitty gritty of terms and conditions. It's what they do for my people.

Oh my gosh, this is so fascinating. I love hearing the journeys that we Walk down in this incredible life. And so often it is not a clear path that's laid out. It unfolds unexpectedly and nudges and prompts from your parents saying, I read it's time to get a job, babe.

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, I love this. So you now have 30 templates, and what would you say is like your product mix? Do you sell primarily templates or do you also do a lot of strategic one on one legal work?

So I don't do a ton of. Of one on one on purpose because I don't want to be trading dollars for hours. I really. Time freedom is really important to me. But I do offer a full service trademark package. So those are kind of the two main revenue streams we have. We have the digital templates, which are, you know, done for you, downloadable, you customize it. And then the trademark package, which is templates or do it yourself, the trademark package is done for you. It's full service. We handle everything from start to finish. And I really love that because trademarks are like brand assets that your business owns. Right. And it's so powerful to be able to say, I own my brand, I own my program name. Nobody else in my industry can use it. And so at one point I was going through, I don't know, a business crisis where I felt like I had to focus on one of these because they are very different, they have different avatars. But I have since let that go because I enjoy both of them and that's fine. Right now. They feed into each other. One is definitely a more scalable business. And, you know, if at some point I decide I don't want to keep doing trademarks, I don't have to. Right? Nothing is forever. But for the moment, I took the pressure off of myself and just am doing it all. I'm not doing it all. I have a paralegal and a team.

But, you know, but take the pressure off. There's so much good stuff here. So oftentimes, and I've walked that path before, and I walk that path with clients and colleagues who are like, oh, should I focus? Am I okay? And I think there's. It's a balancing act in any number of things can work. I tend to like to focus, but for a period of time, like, I run multiple businesses and I know that I could not have gotten two businesses off the ground at the same exact time and builds like. And ran that in parallel. But what I can do is build one. Okay, then I can build the next one. Then we'll, you know, Maybe we'll build the next one, or maybe we'll adjust strategy on those or. And then things start to layer. But did you start. You started with shops and then added on trademarks or other way?

Yeah, no, I started with the contracts and the templates and then eventually added on the trademarks. I mean, you know, seven or eight months later, it just. It wasn't. But I felt like that was kind of growing, and then trademarks were something that I wanted to be able to offer. People came to me for a while, and I just, at that point, didn't have the capacity. And finally I was like, okay, like, yes, let's do it. Mm.

You know, as I think about your journey and I think about the people who listen to this podcast, it is 100% in their arm's reach that they can do the next thing in their business. Whether that's, hey, I'm just starting her out, or, oh, hey, I'm going to take it to the next level now. 100%. I have no doubt that the person listening to this can do that.

Yeah.

And I wonder, did you have that feeling of, like, oh, gosh, is it going to work? Is it like, you started one eight months in, like, where in there? Did any seeds of doubt come up?

Yeah, for sure. Because the unfortunate thing with trademarks registrations is they aren't guaranteed. Right. And so, you know, I can do my best, you know, to make sure that it gets through, but it's never a guarantee. And so I have had ones that didn't. And when that happened, you know, at the beginning, I would take it so personally, I would probably be more upset about it than my client was. Right. And so I really had to get to a point where I could separate that. I did my job. The U.S. patent Trademark Office is made up of a bunch of attorneys, and they think they're doing their job right. So that was a tough thing when you, you know, I do my best for my clients. Some of them know that it's going to be a risk, and other times, you know, we are very confident that it's going to get through. But that was hard for me because I am a people pleaser, something I am constantly working on. But that was difficult. And so at that point, I was like, do I really want to do this? Do I want to set myself up for this? But then when we do get it and when they get that certificate and they can start using the R with the circle, which is so awesome. It's like, that was more important than, you know, the Ones that we aren't able to get through.

Oh, that's so good. What. What are the percentages, do you think, of those that go through versus those that don't?

It varies. I can say mine is somewhere between, like, 85 and 90%. I. I don't know the percentages of, like, all trademarks, because people that try to do it on their own have, like, a. At least a 50% fail rate. And so I think it's. It's hard to say. That would be a good stat to. To know, though.

That is a good stat. And even that if it's average 50% and you get 35 to 40% lift on that. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You mentioned that when you first started pricing your trademark services, you were. You were, relatively speaking, pretty affordable there.

Yeah.

What was going through your mind when you priced that? Do you remember?

Yeah, I mean, I think with all of, you know, whether I was starting out doing contracts or trademarks or anything, but the templates, any of my templates, time, services. I started out at the time what felt like amazing, like someone's gonna pay me to do this for this amount. But I also, like, had this, you know, I. There was this level of guilt money mindset stuff that, like, how can I charge for something that's so easy for me, Right. I know so many of us have those same thoughts, right? But, you know, there's an interesting. I'm sure you've heard it, the story of the carpenter or the plumber that comes to your house and puts a nail in one piece of the wood, right. And charges $500. And then the woman's like, how can you charge so much? And he's like, well, you're not paying for that nail. You're paying for the 10 years of experience it took for me to know that's the nail that needed to go in. Right?

It needed to go in.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so pricing has always been an interesting thing. Thing. And obviously, as I've gone and been more confident, had more experience, my prices have gone up. And something that I worked at there was a couple years ago where I really didn't want to be doing, like, single contracts or things like that. And my coach at the time, you know, I think I was charging, I don't know, maybe like twelve hundred dollars or something. She's like, well, what if it was, you know, fifteen hundred dollars? What if it was eighteen hundred? And I was like, oh, well, okay, then that would feel okay. Right. And so it's just interesting how pricing dynamics Happen. And I know it's something, especially in the online space that is ever changing.

It really is. I tend to align with your approach on this though that you actually took on your path is I'm going to do what's comfortable for me at the time and maybe inch it up a little bit. But what I oftentimes see is if we go up too high and too fast from where our mindset is, we end up psyching ourselves out. I'm like, oh, and then nothing happens.

Yeah.

Okay, now let's bring it back down a little bit. That feels comfortable.

Totally.

Then. Okay. We'll see this flow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Oftentimes I hear from people when you change your pricing, you may get a different kind of clientele as well. Did you see that shift or do you think you were just kind of growing with your clients at the same time?

I think I have very much been growing with my clients at the same time. So some of my first like template clients that bought like a coaching contract in terms of purchase five or six years ago have now bought five trademarks. Right. And so they were just starting out and now many of them are seven figure coaches. So I definitely feel like it's been an evolution. And then now I get from the spectrum, I still get a lot of new or relatively new coaches that are interested in, in the templates and the bundles. And then I get a lot of more seasoned entrepreneurs that are like, I've kind of been waiting and now I need three trademarks. Right. And they're ready to invest. They're gonna just pay that and include it as part of their business. So it's been interesting to see that and also just to be on that journey with my clients as well, which I really enjoy.

I agree. Do you also. I'm circling back a little bit to the, the people pleasing that you mentioned because this is something I think in service based businesses. I don't know if this is like across the board in the online space. I mean, I saw it all the time in all of the industries I've ever worked in. But especially in service, we are there to support people, love people up. And I just saw an article last week. I think it was Wall Street Journal. I really wish I knew the exact place, but I'm sure if you Google this you will easily find it. But it was about how customer service complaints are going up and that customers who are complaining are much more vocal, much more in. There's an intensity that's coming with it and I can see it like Some of those airplane stories that I see on the news, knock on wood. I have not had a horrible airplane travel experience yet, but I could see, you know, we've had a rough few years, but I am very similar in that, like, my team will come. Like, okay, can Amber, can you reach out to this person? Like, I can, but I might offer to pay their mortgage or do they need a new car, a new refrigerator? How can I help? Like, oh, man, you know, yeah, we messed up. We got to own it sometimes. We didn't mess up and somebody's just having a bad day. But, man, like, where we can bring a little joy into someone's life. Like, I'm down for it. What do you need? How can we help? How do you navigate the clientele, the client interactions, the people pleasing? And I'm just throwing so much at you at once. But does the current climate play into any of that as well, do you think?

Yeah. So, you know, fortunately, this is not a big issue for our company. Like, I would say we get a complaint maybe once or twice a year. Like, nice, easy. It's fortunate. We're very fortunate that people are really happy with our products and there aren't a lot of issues. You know, if there is, it may be some confusion, like, oh, I thought it was this template, and I really need this one. And in that case, we'll work with them to, like, figure it out whether it's giving them a coupon or the other template or things like that. And I always just really try and tell my team to as well. Like, customer's always right. Like, kind of kill with kindness. If someone is coming at me, I just, you know, try to treat them like they are having a bad day and we don't know what's going on there. Fortunately, being a lawyer, like, you know, knock on wood, we've never had a missed payment. Like, that doesn't happen in our world. And I think it's because we of what our business is. I would say the people pleasing has come in most on the trademark side side. And what I did at the beginning, if we didn't get a trademark, I would like, basically give them another one for free. That's something that I promise you. The attorney at the law firm down the street is not doing that because I still did my job to the best of my ability. I just want them to be happy. So that's something I did have to work through. On the people pleasing side, that's pretty.

Cool, you know, and those are brand stories. And even if you were still doing that today. How awesome does that sound? Like it's not my fault. And even though it's not my fault. I got you. Yeah. One more go.

Yeah. We're going to try again. We'll try again. Yeah.

That's amazing. I love it. You know, and it's interesting, too, because you share that it worked for a season in your business, and then you adapted and evolved it and something else works. But whatever it is that people are implementing, you know, those wacky strategies, one that I love and go back to is the Ritz Carlton's customer experience. Experience. I mean, it's just above and beyond. I love reading about it.

So smart. I love that, too. I love their, like, each. They empower their employees. What is it up to? Like, $2,000 for every client issue. And I remember staying in a Ritz, like, this was pretty early after things had opened up after Covid, they were still, like, delivering all the food and, like, Styrofoam. Not the experience that you want at the Ritz. Right. And one night, like, my dinner was, like. It was pretty delayed. I would say, like, over an hour. And, like, the woman brought it, and she was like, this is on us. I'm so sorry. And, like, here's another credit for, like, tomorrow night. Like, they just went above and beyond. And it does make a difference.

It really does. So that a secondary case study that follows the Ritz Carlton legitimately, they followed the Ritz Carlton approach. So the ritz does the $2,000 that employees have a budget of. I think it's daily to, like, just take care of, like, whatever comes up. If something comes up, you've got this take care of people. And they also have something where if you walk in proximity of a colleague of a client, you say hello. And I believe it's if you're 10ft apart, you nod. Like, give it a nod. You don't yell across the hall. But, yeah, I see you. Like a nod, a wave, a smile. If you're five feet apart, you say hello. So I read a study about a healthcare system, Oxnard Healthcare System, that pulled this through and implemented this in the hospital. There were absolutely people who were not interested in participating in this experience. I'm a surgeon. I'm too busy. I got things done. Like what? I got to take care of my patients. I don't have time to say hello. Okay, fine. And they didn't force it on anyone. But what they found is that it naturally spread. Employees got involved in it even when they didn't think they wanted to to start, they saw employee satisfaction go up, they saw client patient satisfaction go up, and they saw outcomes go up. Because people like, oh, yeah, that's how they're going to treat me at this facility, this health care facility, of course I'll go back. So they were going back for follow ups. They were taking care of themselves better after they left the facility. I mean, the ripple effects of something like that, it just gives me goosebumps every time I think about it.

Yeah, that's so, it's so true and so amazing that some of these little things can just make a huge difference to, you know, your, your customers and your audience. And then it helps, it just helps you and your business.

You know, Sarah, you've been in the online space for a bit, you dabbled and then you were all in. And how do you think the online world takes care of clients today compared to that, that scenario that we were just talking about?

So, you know, my husband and I often get in this discussion because he's in real estate, he's very traditional, like on the phone, let's go meet people. And I come from the online space of like, I don't want to talk to anybody, like, just send me an email. And I think the online space is now evolving to be more like, quote, unquote, the real world. Right. I think whether it is because more people are here, the impact of COVID but I think people want to talk, they want the real relationships, they want the events, they want the retreats, they want to be treated well. So I do think, you know, businesses that go a little bit above and beyond in terms of customer service are the ones that are remembered, you know, with brand recognition and things like that. I do feel like we're seeing more of that than we used to do. What do you think?

Yeah, I tend to agree when you mentioned that personalization. I think we're seeing that exponentially rapid, fast in our marketing too, like that, that connection of right dms going up, real time responses, being ready all the time, you know, to meet someone where they are online, offline, you know, all the things that are happening. So I totally agree and I think it's very exciting to see that, that shifting or that maybe, I don't know if it's shifting or a bar is being raised or it's being looked at more closely. But I think it's an exciting time and I think it's a really challenging time.

Yeah, because you have, you know, all of those, those extra touches or things like that take time or team or you know, some sort of investment and as we all know, starting and growing businesses, there's a lot to do. And so I think people have to really weigh out where they're gonna spend that time and money.

Speaking of things people are weighing right now, AI is something else that's emerging or has emerged. It is.

I mean, it is here. It is here. It was like one day it wasn't, and then one day it was. Was. It feels like that to me.

Do you use any AI and your daily.

I do. So I, you know, I'm new, right. Maybe it's been in the past month or so, but I have started using it for like some content ideas and I, you know, 10 ideas for toddler lunches and, you know, things like that. I've definitely started. I feel like I'm just scratching the surface, but it's, it's interesting from a.

Legal perspective on this. I'm sure you've got some viewpoints and I know that the industry is like.

What are we going to do with this?

What are we going to do with this?

Yeah, so there, you know, and as you know, I just recently did a blog post on this because there are some legal issues that are popping up. You know, the biggest one is really around copyright, like who owns the content that AI is producing. And the answer really is nobody. Right. Because copyright means that it's first of all, under the legal definition to get copyright registration protection, it has to be created by a human. So right there, anything that's coming out of AI is not going to be able to be copyrighted, nor would you want it to, because we could ask the same thing and have the exact same response. Right. And so then there's not an original thing there. The other interesting piece that I found when I was researching for this, this post was if you are doing content, social media, post emails, something through AI or ChatGPT and you copy and paste it completely under their terms, you're supposed to tell your audience. So you're supposed to be, you're not supposed to pass it off as you. If it was really written by chat GPT. And so I think something for those of us that are using it, and if you're thinking about using it, is to just use it for outlines, ideas, but put your own spin on it. And I do think we're all beginning to kind of sense, oh, that was clearly written by AI. Right. And so I think adding our own flair and our own touch is really important.

Yeah, this is a good point. I do not typically lift exactly what any of the content creation sites sent me, I use it more so as a brainstorm. I've actually been using Jarvis AI over a year now.

Wow.

And it's been great to brainstorm a headline or brainstorm like a bunch of different email subject lines because my brain might not be, you know, as creative. So I'm like, okay, give me something. Give me something to work with. It's like a live brainstorm.

Yes.

But I didn't realize until you had shared it that, oh, no, you got to say if you just fully lift.

Yeah. You know, and same. Which I think it's great for. And I did this recently with a new app and I was like, okay, here's a title. And I was like, but be funnier. Try again, try again, try again. Right? And you know, that is try again.

You find yourself being kind when you're in a conversation with the chat GPT system.

Yes, 100%. I'm like, thank you for that. That was really helpful. You know, one thing to say is, like, the law is always behind technology. So it will be a while before some of these legal issues are actually tested and laws and or regulations are put in place, man.

And any one of us listening who are leveraging this technology have the opportunity to be right in the middle of some of that. So keep an eye on things. Try and stay ahead of things. Listen to the guidance from those like Sarah at Destination Legal. Sarah, I have so loved chatting with you. And I'm so grateful that when we open this, like, we could go a few different directions and we just rolled with it. Right on time.

Yeah.

Is there anything you're like, oh, don't forget about this. People need to know this. Or is there anything that's just top of mind for you right now?

We really didn't get into the legal, which actually I love just, you know, kind of talking about stories and online business in general. But I will say, you know, for those of you that might think like, legal is scary or boring or not exciting, I would just remind you and ask you to think of it differently. If you're building an online business and you're an entrepreneur, like, think of legal is your friend. Think of it as your foundation that you are building your powerhouse on. And you want to make sure that you're protecting. And that's, you know, that's the message is just legal is. Is about empowerment and confidence and, you know, building strong businesses.

So good. And I could not agree more. Sarah, people find you over@ Destinationlegal.com. is that right?

That's right. And you can follow me on Instagram also at Destination Legal.

I love it. Thank you so much for hanging out today. It has been a blast.

Thank you so much for having me.