Lincoln Haycock: AI Won't Save Healthcare Until This One Problem Is Fixed

Welcome to Go to Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go to Market is sponsored by Fullcast and Silicon Slopes. It is such a pleasure to introduce to you today Lincoln Haycock, a healthcare analytics leader for companies like Castell and Intermountain Healthcare. Lincoln, how are you today?

Great. It's great to be here. Thanks, Amy Cook.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on. You know, we were talking a little bit last week about healthcare analytics. Some people call it a, a quagmire. Some people call it a super complicated mess. Some people call it, an opportunity for healthcare. What do you call it, Lincoln? Where are we in the state of healthcare right now?

All of those are appropriate. Certainly all of those apply. Great words. I see it as an opportunity. Healthcare is too disconnected. It's not coordinated enough. And that really is one of the reasons behind why we're not getting the value out of what we're spending for healthcare. And I think at the end of the day, no one in this country would agree that we are getting the value commensurate with what we're spending on healthcare. And so I, I think the data aspect, the siloed nature of it, the quagmire you talk about is one opportunity, but certainly many others.

So, yes, absolutely right. And I come at it from a huge proponent of healthcare tech. You know, I— you and I talked a little bit about your, your background, which we're going to get into in a minute, is absolutely fascinating. My background is healthcare marketing, starting with post-acute care, moving into health tech and AI and healthcare. And, and that's my passion. So I love what we're doing in the healthcare sector right now, all the opportunities for innovation. And I just appreciate you coming on to tell us some of the things that you've been doing to try to improve an aspect of healthcare. So let's start a little bit with your background. How did you get interested in healthcare analytics?

My whole career has been in healthcare analytics, and it actually starts in undergrad. I can point back to two things. One, I wrote a paper in a business writing class about healthcare in America, and I wrote about how different states could be laboratories for how we could test things that might work on a national scale. So that kind of introduced me to the idea. I think Romney was campaigning at the time. And so that was interesting. And then I took it my senior year. I took a health economics class where I was introduced to some of the, what I would call perverse incentives that exist in terms of how healthcare is paid for both doctors, the economics of insurance markets, which I found fascinating. And then I also took a SaaS programming class, which I had taken a little bit of programming, but that, that gave me a little bit more and really helped me get my first job opportunity, which was with a small consulting firm based here in Salt Lake City. And they, all they did was healthcare data and analytics. And so from then on, that, that's all I've known. That's all I've done.

Thank you. Healthcare data and analytics. I love that. How amazing to have specialists like you who can make sense of it, first of all. So tell me a little bit about how do you feel about the way that healthcare is going right now and what kinds of analytics do you think are the most effective in, in, in moving the needle and improving healthcare right now?

Yeah, it's an interesting question and I, I've had to do some soul searching, frankly. I've been at this for 17 years and I was recently shopping for health insurance on the marketplace here in Utah. And was frankly disgusted by how expensive it is. And to think, man, I've been at this for 17 years, been doing what I think is some pretty innovative things, working with great technology that, you know, in small pockets has done some amazing things. But at large, we're still paying more for healthcare in this country than we ever have as a percent of GDP. 18% is what I hear.

Wow.

And if you look at kind of any objective measure, we're not, you know, the outcomes aren't improving. Life expectancy has plateaued and, you know, we're not, we're not healthier for it. And so I've, I've had to do some introspective soul searching about, wow, what are we doing? I think it comes back to the system, right? I've studied the healthcare system and I did a master's degree in healthcare administration and studied it, and I think there are like fundamental challenges in the system that no amount of AI or technology will solve. Now, do I think AI has the opportunity to take out some of the administrative waste that we know exists in healthcare? I do. So far though, I've, I've only seen it add a lot of cost. We aren't to the point yet where we are meaningfully or materially taking cost out of the system. And that's where, as an AI leader and as leaders in healthcare, I think that has to be our North Star, is how do we not only use this technology to carve out new niches and extract more, more profit from the system, but actually do things that take costs down. And I've been encouraged by some of the leadership in CMS. You listen to Chris talk and that's what he's talking about. He's saying we want innovators, we want partners, and we want people who are committed to doing that.

So, well, I totally agree. There are a couple of really interesting companies out there that are doing some things that I've really never— I had never heard of before the past couple of weeks. So Jake Fackrell at Savos Health, he's come up with an almost escrow situation where the provider gets paid cash pay on the day of the procedure. And he works with self-funded employers to be able to bring down the cost. So I thought one was interesting. There's also an interesting database that gives us the opportunity to do a lot of innovation with genes with— it's a combination database with the state of Utah and the LDS Church to be able to like have some of that innovative DNA measurement come through. I'm going to have to— I'm not speaking very well. It's Healy, Healy ATX Therapeutics. I was talking to him today about it. So there's all kinds of innovation going on right now. When you talk about the cost cutting that needs to happen, What do you think we need to do? Is it on the responsibility of each provider to say, how do we bring down the cost for our patients? Is it the government's job? Is it the patient's job to stand up for themselves? Like, what do you think is the answer?

That is so elusive, Amy Cook. That, that's, that's again where, you know, I, I did a master's degree in this and, and that kind of came out in our class. It's like, we don't really know what works or what the silver bullet will be. You listen to folks like Mark Cuban and they talk about breaking up the large insurance companies. And I, I'm supportive of that. I think that they're, they're too big. They control too much and they aren't returning value to the communities. And I spent 8 years at Intermountain Health who has a nonprofit mission, right? Their, their responsibility is to the community. And I, I think they're, you listen, you listen to their board chair and he has a mandate that Intermountain move toward more value-based care.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where you change the payment models. So physicians, providers of healthcare are incentivized to not just do more procedures, you know, fill up the hospital, but to keep people healthy and drive outcomes. Yeah. You know, CMS is continuing to do innovative things. They just kicked off a 10-year pilot with their access model to pay for outcomes. And that's innovative. I, I think there's, there's potential there. I also look at it a little bit with a little bit of skepticism because we've been on this value-based care journey for 20 years and there's been pockets of success, but we haven't seen the industry adopted wholesale. And we haven't seen a tapering of the growth in the cost curve associated with that. And so I, I think if we can get consumers more engaged, I, I think that will be promising. And that's where, you know, if AI can help us take advance the price transparency side of it, the patient engagement side of it. Another thing I'm really excited about is the way the administration is talking about interoperability and really enforcing the breaking down of data silos. For years, EMRs have been required to support the capability to share data, but when you're actually asking them for an extract, there's no one at the clinic who knows how that works, and it's not very seamless to get meaningful, actionable data out of those systems. And so the way that payers are going to be required to share data, the way that providers have been required to, but I think will be more operationally effective at sharing data. I think that holds promise. And so I'm excited about those, the promise that's there on those fronts.

Well, that's good. So it's a few of the problems that you've identified that need to be solved and are made. We are making some progress on it. Are the interoperability, pricing transparency, the realization that increasing costs have not resulted in enhanced patient outcomes. And we've also got a recognition that value-based care, for all of its push from, you know, I was a skilled nursing leader, I was greatly affected by the value-based care because the hospitals were always trying to kick out people from skilled nursing and take them to home health so they could catch more of the the pot. And that to me was incentivizing the wrong metrics too. So, you know, it's just really interesting to, to see. So several of those things you've mentioned are, you know, we, we know what the issues are and we have some innovations that are starting to help. From a consumer perspective, what advice do you have for patients who want to take more control of their own health from an analytics point of view, what recommendations would you have for us?

I'm a huge fan of kind of diet is medicine, right? I actually think there's, there, there's so much evidence supporting the connection between diet and health outcomes. And I think frankly, that's where I think some of the, you, you read about the CMS payment models, you know, that they're paying for outcomes. And you're, you're holding the provider of care or the builder of technology accountable for driving those outcomes with people. And, and that, and that's always been kind of this, like, I feel like kind of this awkward reality of value-based care is like, you've got to get people to change their behavior, right? Change their lifestyle. And I think culturally there are some positive changes happening in the country. I think about the equity of that, right? That those, those changes don't happen as fast or as completely in, you know, poorer neighborhoods and zip codes. And I think it's multifaceted, but as a consumer, I think if, if every consumer believed that they had a little bit more control of their outcomes, and that their behaviors would influence those outcomes. I think that, that, that's what I would say. Certainly there are diseases that come independent of outcomes. Genetics are a huge factor that play into that. But more than anything, I think it's just a belief that, hmm, what I do influences my health in many ways.

Okay. That is the best advice ever. Just don't get— first of all, don't get sick. To help keep the cost down, don't get sick.

And I'll bet the preventative behaviors that make it less likely that you get sick, right? I'm thinking about things like diabetes. You can do a lot of things to avoid that. And you can also reverse that diagnosis once it happens through lifestyle change. And you know, this is top of mind for me because I have a family history of heart disease. You know, my, my grandfather had open heart surgery. My dad had a stent put in, you know, relatively young in life. And so I know that this is, you know, there, there are genetics.

No, but I think what you're saying is absolutely the way forward. Preventative health has to be on the consumer, on the patient every day, right? We need to take ownership of our own healthcare outcomes, like that point from my perspective is a really, really important point that is not always talked about because you're right, like oftentimes we put the responsibility on the healthcare provider when it really should be on us to help to, you know, take responsibility for our own healthcare outcomes.

Assuming— And the insurer too. I mean, it mainly sits with the insurer today and kind of the legacy model unless you're pushing that risk to the provider and engaging them in it. I mean, that's who it's sitting with today.

Yeah, you're right. So outside of taking care of our own healthcare or our own health outcomes, what is another piece of advice that you would have for patients? For example, if we need to go into the doctor, is there anything we can do to help improve payment transparency?

Hmm. That's an interesting question. You know, for the average consumer, I just think the expected experience is one of frustration. And delay and lack of transparency. And, and I think if you expect something different, you're setting yourself up for just like unneeded frustration. It's a great question, Amy, and I don't have an answer. And that's one of those things that I think structurally, systemically, we've got to figure that out through better coordinated care, right? I, I, I, then that's where like, I, I'm excited about the concept of accountable care organizations, right? Because in those constructs, you have who would otherwise be competitors sharing data with one another. And there are incentives to get the patient to the lowest cost care setting. But the execution of that, just, it hasn't, it hasn't been there yet.

Yeah, you're right. And I think that understanding that is another, as you say, another really important thing to realize is that that is That is the current model right now. As you go in, you have a high deductible, you expect to pay everything out of pocket except for copay, and then you expect you might have a lot of other payments on the back end depending on what goes on, right? So I think that that's a really another very good point is just to set your expectations kind of, you know, It is what it is.

So such a terrible answer.

It's not an— no, it's a realistic answer. I actually think it's actually a very good answer and an honest answer. Is there anything else that we can do besides kind of, you know, understanding the— understanding the environment that we're in, being our own health advocate with our diet and our, our own health outcomes? Is there anything else we can do to help us understand and navigate our healthcare system more effectively?

Just know that there are, I think there are really smart people, really ambitious people who are out there trying to make it better. And there's a lot of investment going into this space. I mean, care coordination, you know, has a lot of investment. The technology has a lot of investment going into it. We, I don't think anyone who works in healthcare is happy that it's this way or finds it easy to go home at night and say, oh, we're doing a great job. But we have not. And so we're working very hard on it, but at the same time, we acknowledge that for the average patient, like most of them have not experienced it. Like many patients who are part of an ACO, they won't have received an outreach call to do a preventive action. Now, many of them have. And so that's— there are certainly success stories. I just think if you look at the expense to provide that proactive outreach to patients. You can't do that across the entire population. It's too expensive. And so it's very targeted, right? We have predictive models who needs this the most, who's, who would benefit from it the most. And those are the people who are receiving the outreach. And so there, there are people out there who are getting it. If you're not getting it, maybe count your blessings that you, you aren't one of those people at hitting the predictive model. As the person who's going to be really sick and you need some help. And if you are, just know that there are a lot of organizations out there who are trying to help.

So I love that. That's great. Well, it's, it's so fun to talk with you because you're so well-versed on so many different aspects of healthcare. We've talked about transparent pricing. We've talked about accountable care organizations. We've talked about all kinds of different analytical models and predictive outcomes. You are at the top of your game. So what do you do to stay there?

This is a question that has been top of mind for me with, with AI and kind of the rapidly changing nature of AI. It's evolving so quickly. I mean, daily it changes. And I've actually asked this question of a lot of my peers over the last year at conferences. I'll ask this question of people and gotten a lot of different answers. So I'll share some of those, but also share kind of what works for me. I think, I think First and foremost, I can't say that taking care of myself and my family and like finding ways to give back is just a core part of making sure that I'm stable and that I have that stability. Outside of that, I think just staying humble and curious. Like we know that we're lifelong learners and, you know, the jobs that I've had didn't exist when I graduated from college and the job that I'll have tomorrow doesn't exist today. And so realizing that and embracing that, and to me, that's, that's been a really fun part of working in healthcare technology is, is the change. And for me, I actually really value structured approaches to learning. And so I'm, I've enrolled in a Chief AI Officer program through the University of Chicago Booth School of Business to give me some structure. Right. And, and, and I really value that. A lot of people I've talked to said, man, the way I keep up on it is I watch YouTube videos at night, you know, and go get the kids to bed. And I don't watch shows. I just watch YouTube videos of, you know, what are people doing with AI? I think that's valuable. I don't have the patience to watch YouTube videos like that all of the time. Podcasts, I can definitely do podcasts. So I'd love that. Happy to contribute to the podcast space here.

I appreciate you contributing. Yep. This is awesome.

And then finally, I would say communities are really valuable, being a part of them. You know, I, I, talking to people is amazing. And so, you know, I use my personal network, you know, people I go to church with, they're happy to talk about how they're using AI. And then colleagues that I have from school. And then, you know, Silicon Slopes is a, is a great community as well. I love the events that, that are hosted through, through that here in Utah and the, the community that's there. So I don't know, those are some of the ways that I'm trying to stay at the top.

I love that. Well, thank you so much, Lincoln. I really appreciate it. It makes me feel better about our healthcare environment knowing that people like you are working on solutions to help us out and to help reduce the cost for each patient while keeping the outcomes very positive. So thank you so much for participating and for being our guest on our show and giving us some more knowledge about how we can be our own best healthcare advocates.

Thanks, Amy Cook. You're a great host. Appreciate it. Business is that business.

Business is that business.