Lonny Sternberg: Are You Building for Today or Scaling for Tomorrow?

Welcome to Go to Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go to Market is sponsored by Fulcast, the go-to-market cloud. My name is Amy Cook, and I am so excited today to introduce you to Lonnie Sternberg. He's an experienced revenue operations and go-to-market advisor. He's worked for companies such as AudioEye, Vestwell, and others. Lonnie, thank you so much for joining us today.

Hey, Amy, thanks so much for having me. I'm super excited to participate and to add some value to the conversation this morning.

Well, absolutely. I'm so excited, and I've been really excited ever since the first time we talked about this. Concept of working in the business versus on the business. And all of the revenue operations leaders who are listening to this podcast know what that means and how important it is. But my goal today is to really get out there that revenue operations is a very strategic role, and you have to have like dual sight for being in the business and on the business. So Let me just start there, Lonnie. What does that mean to you?

Yeah, I think it's a great topic and one that's definitely getting a lot of airtime these days for a very, very important reason. So when you're working, you know, within the company, if you will, I think there's a lot of different mandates and there's a lot of different initiatives, both strategic, tactical, and then of course all of them need to lead to impact. So as a result, I think that there's a need to make sure that others as well as yourself as a leader understand that you've got to execute day to day. There's got to be the day-to-day execution and enablement operations and processing, you know, what I call like the block and tackle and, you know, where the rubber meets the road. But there also needs to be this concept and this mutual understanding that we're not just, you know, processing and working in the business, but we're really working on the business to achieve the larger, you know, goals, the longer-term objectives. So if we factor it down to micro and macroeconomics, if you will, there's the macro and there's the micro. Specifically, where do we want to be in 5 years? How do we prepare ourselves to be sustainable? How do we prepare ourselves to be scalable? How do we react to an ongoing landscape where there is an environment of incre— increasing technology such as AI. You have an ICP that could be ever-changing. You have the different pricing models that could be balanced. And you have, you know, the demands of now really needing to create value more than ever.

That I totally agree. And it's very interesting because I think of like a zoom lens, right? Where you have to like, you have to look, you have to zoom out and you have to look at the overall big picture macroeconomics like you said, then be able to zoom in, then be able to zoom out again. Look forward into the future 5 years, look tomorrow into the— it's a really interesting set of strategic skills that not very many people can do very well. So really, like, my overall thesis that revenue operations people are the smartest people in any room, I think really holds true, especially when we start talking about this.

Yeah, it's been, you know, I think it's been an awesome journey, you know, for the past, you know, 12+ years, you know, serving as a RevOps leader, you know, in different B2B, you know, landscape to businesses. Um, you know, I'm, I'm super passionate about both, you know, the, the macro and the micro, working in and on. And I think that's if we just do like, you know, that quick history lesson of like, you know, you originally had sales ops because you needed technical expertise to work on the tooling and, you know, to handle the, the, the support needing by your, your top-line sales leaders. And then you moved into this idea of like, okay, we're going to graduate and we're going to have this distinction of RevOps, which is going to be the culmination of aligning, you know, marketing success and sales. And I think now you're going past that to this idea of possibly go-to-market ops. So the analogy that I like to think about that we could really dig into is, are you familiar with motorsport racing or any type of, you know, I'm an enthusiast, but I don't know very much about it.

So tell me more.

So just, just thinking about the core concept of the idea of a pit crew, right? If, if you were setting, you know, some form of a racer, you know, albeit, you know, it could be, you know, some type of horse racing, motorsport racing, whatever. It's a team sport, right? And it always revolves around, I think, people. And if you say, hey, we want to win this race, you're, you're not going to send, you know, 75% of the team into a room and say, okay, everybody ready, we're going to win this race. You're going to set 100% of the team into the race. And you need to have, I think, these consultative advisors and partners and thought leaders, i.e., RevOps, to be part of that, have 100% of the people or the whole pit crew and say, hey, look, we've got to, you know, do lap times of X, we've got to reduce and remove friction from the, the entire process. We need to make sure that we mitigate our risks. Okay, we need to have a little bit of a contingency plan. If you don't have everybody in the room planning for that ahead of time, you're really at a disadvantage. So I think by companies evolving and really infusing this alignment, this unification of a revenue operations ecosystem just puts the company in a position to have a strategic and competitive advantage supporting its competitive advantage with its products and service and its pricing models.

I love that. So would you— so what are some examples of being in the business versus on business? And how do you in your mind characterize that?

So I think in the business is more of a reactive state. It's, it's the block and tackle. It's supporting the tools and the processes, the demands, the needs, the reporting. It's— I think what it is is it's reacting to a lot of other motions that are happening around you. It's working on that alignment. I think it's moving towards the on the business, but I think you're really boiling up. It's a bottoms-up approach, in my opinion. Of really kind of like, hey, these are the way things are kind of working and we're going to add value, of course. But it's kind of like a bottoms, a bottoms-up approach in some regards or a reactive state. We could draw the analogy and say it's top-down, but I think it's really— let's just call it reactive versus proactive for simplicity's sake.

Yeah, sounds good.

So if I think now working on the business is really more proactive, it's saying, hey, this is an evaluation or an audit of where we're at today. And it's really assessing the, you know, laddering up to the OKRs, diving deep into the KPIs. And the framework that I like to use is people, process, systems, and tools, not just people, process, and tech. So when you've done that full audit, I think you're prepared to go to the mat or go to the room and take that proactive approach on the business and say, oh, I'm understanding that we want to achieve this in 5 years. I'm understanding we want to have a gross margin percentage of Y. We want to have top line revenue of X, you know, we want to have an NPS score of, of this, etc., etc. And then you're in a position where you have that framework, that evaluation, your expertise in the business to say, we have a gap here. Oh, we do really, really good at this. Or, hey, I think we need to make— double down our investment in this other area to be able to achieve some of those goals. And I think when you reach maturity, that perfect culmination of saying, Hey, we understand being in the business and on the business and we're being leveraged as a strategic advantage and we have the tooling to do so. We've really reached a place where we are having full autonomy, if you will. And full autonomy to me means like, hey, we have design, build and management of the tooling that collects our data. We have nomenclature influence. We know how to measure, what to measure, and when to measure. Definitely have a handle on all of the tools. So rather than being in a position where we are being asked like, hey, can you go implement this thing, maybe it's in a position where everything is mapped end to end using that customer blueprint, that customer journey, i.e., that Winning by Design Bowtie model, and saying, hey, we know all of the processes, we know all of the procedures, we know all the systems, all the tools, all the KPIs in each step of that end-to-end journey. And rather than being on the receiving side. We're on the side of, hey, we'd recommend doing it this way. We would—

I love that shift. So how do you work with other departments? Okay, I have two questions from based on what you said.

Sure, sure.

Can you identify a little bit more how you differentiate between systems and technology? Because I think that's super important. And then can you also talk to me a little bit more about how you work with department heads on that, what they prefer versus what you prefer, and how do you do that negotiation?

Great questions. I love that. So I think on the first question, systems and tools, you know, we, we, we, I, I mentioned earlier, we talk a lot about processes. I mean, if we look at like the real rooted definition on both of those, I think systems often, I think, is used interchangeably with tools. And I think when I say tools, I mean technology, right? So platforms, subscriptions, licenses, right? Systems, I think, is, is a— are the overarching models or frameworks that the processes are laddering up into. We have a process or sales process, a sales motion. We have a CPQ process. We have a process of renewals. Those all kind of, you know, a couple of processes come together to form a system. And then all of those systems are traveling or being managed within all of these tools. So I think, you know, I'm, you know, thinking about those design models and just aligning, and it doesn't have to be that specific definition, but just aligning on that in general, I think is number one. So that leading into question number two, if we just think about alignment and start with the basics, the nomenclature, I think going through the conversation and meeting the other team members where they're at and saying like, look, let me just understand your objectives. Let me understand your pain points. What have you tried? What have you not tried? What are you being asked to achieve? You know, what are you laddering up to? And I think by understanding where everyone is at, that is a good way to, to meet them and not only understand, but then to say, okay, great, So I've done my own evaluation and I've looked at all these things and here's what I have found. And I think if you come together to promote collective success and what you're trying to achieve, then you build that trust ultimately. So I think I'm trying to establish trust, number one, to your point.

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I've worked with RevOps leaders in the past where they take a more like dictator stance and they're like, I'm in charge of this and you don't get to choose anything that you want. And then I've worked with RevOps leaders who say, I want to— and like, exactly the way you do it, where they're like, I want to understand what you're trying to achieve, what your preferences are. And I actually have one, one leader that I work with now at Fullcast that is so good working with me because he keeps like— because, you know, there's a lot of passion in all of this, right? And he keeps reassuring me, he's like, I'm here to help you, Amy. I'm here to I know, thank you, thank you.

I think there's a time and a place for both, frankly, and it just depends on the relational, you know, like intersection between the two different people. But, you know, sometimes you have to definitely hold your ground without a doubt and just say, look, this is the data and this is why I'm passionate about it, I'm supporting it. And like, you know, it's a flat out, this is what we're gonna do. And then I think there's other times where you have to, to, to lead with empathy and just say, hey, look, like, you know, what, what are you trying to achieve? I think to your point, you kind of maybe start with the, hey, what are you trying to achieve? Let's lead with empathy. And then once you get to the conclusion, you're like, okay, so this is the plan and this is what we're gonna do. Because if you want to achieve this, you know, I'm expertized and empowered in this area, this is what we need to do. And that's where I think if you have that level of trust, then someone says, okay, fine, let's just move forward and get it done.

I 100% agree with that. It's to me that You can call it a soft skill if you want, but that ability to build trust across departments, to me, that is the real secret sauce of really effective RevOps leaders because you can be technically proficient, but the people like you were saying who are able to build trust, those are the ones that get the most done because then you'll be willing to defer as a department head. You'll be able to say, all right, I can tell you're trying to help me. Let me listen to what you're saying here. I will defer to your judgment. I can do a different system even though I'm used to a different one. And I think I love, I love everything you said about that.

Yeah, I appreciate that. Thanks. I think the one thing that, that I believe is one of the objectives too, though, of, of this exact, you know, podcast is that you gotta have the executive alignment and support, 100%, and there's got to be the autonomy And I think the company as a whole has to, to understand the time and the place and the reasoning for the investment. So then, so then people really can galvanize around like, hey, we're as an organization, we're invested in this. This isn't an afterthought.

That makes sense. 100%. I love that. Okay, so tell me a little bit more. So we've talked about kind of collaboration and the difference between systems and technology. We've talked about in the business versus on the business. And, and you kind of tied it all together so neatly with, with the idea of the pit crew. And I think that that is a really, really great analogy. Um, how do you see yourself within that pit crew, and who are all the other players?

Definitely, I like to think of a hub and spoke model when it comes to trying to be everywhere at once, right? So if we break down the— I would say in some ways the complexities, but also how some areas may be getting simplified with automations and AI and other things. I think about it by really having this idea of a hub and spoke where you have, you know, parts of a department where you're, you, you together are one as a hub, but you know, you have different specific roles, levels of expertise, and cross-functional collaboration so that when everyone is out doing their work, if you will, and independently, you know, running the race or on the field, you know, as a team sport, they're, we're coming back together as a hub and saying, okay, well, so-and-so is working on this project and I'm trying to achieve this and this may be, you know, markups and this may be sales ops, this may be sales enablement, partner ops, sales effectiveness. You have cross-functional collaboration within your own hub, but you're also kind of expertized in getting some area of, you know, this spoke where then these outside collaborators come back to that trust building and that relational value. They know like I'm always gonna go at Amy. And Amy is my partner on this. And I think that is a model that I have used to try to really build the team dynamic as well and have people advance and grow in their career as they become— you know, I don't want to say siloed, but I want to say like, you know, they become expertized, but also they get exposure to all these other different parts of the compo— of the business.

I love that too. And really foundationally one of the most exciting things to me is the ability for that RevOps lead to be able to give exposure from all areas of the business to each other and to really build that integrated go-to-market model.

So 100%.

Yeah, Lonnie, thank you so much for everything that you've shared with us today. I mean, it's clear you're at the very, very top of your game. So there's One question that I always ask, how do you stay there? How do you stay at the top of your game? What are you doing that other RevOps leaders can do to help get to where you're at?

Yeah, thanks, Amy. I, you know, I want to compliment a lot of others, frankly, because there are so many smart people in, in RevOps, and I don't want to take credit for you know, being the, the originator of everything. I think there are so many smart people out there, and I'm very, very thankful and appreciative of the opportunity to collaborate, to read, to, to learn, to communicate with them, uh, you know, virtual coffee chats. Um, you know, I commented earlier on LinkedIn today about, you know, a book that was written by another, you know, fellow RevOps operator that is expertized. So I think that it's a community of individuals that are really, you know, have a people-first mentality that are like, oh, I can help you with that. Oh, you have a question? Sure. Or this is what I'm going through. Or hey, I mean, frankly, if you just go through a lot of LinkedIn posts, like people are like, hey, I'm raising my hand for help. Has anyone seen this before? And I think Everyone being so vulnerable and wanting to reach out and, and elevate everyone, that's really what's special about operators and RevOps is that they're, they're there to solve problems. They wanna help everyone. So I, I'm just thankful of everybody around me that allow me the opportunity to also learn from them.

Well, I think that that speaks volumes about you as a person as well as the community. And one thing that I find very interesting is that Probably 90% of the time when I ask this question to other RevOps leaders, that's what they say.

Yeah, you learn from each other. Yeah, like we're just all, we're all just trying to learn every day.

And I think that's what's so exciting about this burgeoning and developing industry is that we're doing something absolutely phenomenal here. We are bridging bureaucracy and digital transformation and creating what is best in class in business structure today. And I just think that there, there is such an incredible opportunity in front of us to be able to—

no doubt. Yeah, very well said. I mean, I honestly think the best mindset is to go in and say like, look, I'm not expecting anything in return, I'm just here to help. And I think the person helping often is the person who learns the most because you, you get exposure. So it's, you know, whenever I'm asked like, hey, can you help me? Or I'm like, I'm just thrilled that you're asking me. Like, of course, definitely want to help. And I, I think that's really how I end up learning more, is I learn about myself, I learn about the industry, I learn about different companies' challenges. And that's why I think so many people in RevOps have— they, they have their full-time, uh, role, right? They have their, their commitment to the company. But by doing a little bit of advisory work, right, or being on, on a collaborative board or taking a certification, having the coffee chats, you know, getting involved in the Slack communities and things like that. You know, you see so many diverse opportunities to learn and then bring that back and creating so much more value for the organization.

No, I love that. That was, that was well said. Well, Lonnie, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for all of the insights and, and structural— like you did the same thing that you say every RevOps lead does is You went broad to narrow to broad to narrow and forward, and, and I just really appreciate all of the insights.

Thanks for having me. It's—

I love talking about this. It's a ton of fun. Yes, thanks again. Thank you.