Noah Marks: Scaling with Purpose: How RevOps Aligns Teams for Growth

Business. Business.

Business.

Business.

Welcome to Go-To-Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go-To-Market is sponsored by Fulcast, the go-to-market cloud. My name is Amy Cook, and I am so excited to introduce Noah Marks, SVP and Head of Commercial Strategy and Operations at Diligent. Noah, how are you?

I'm great. I'm reeling from the day after Halloween sugar buzz. House is a mess with candy wrappers and so on, but it's good. Glad to be here. Thank you.

Well, thank you so much for being willing to arise from the candy coma and all of the work from trick-or-treating and meeting with us today. I'm really excited. You are an absolute, you know, amazing advisor to us and power user at Fulcast. And so just wanted to say thank you, first of all, for being so awesome to work with and thank you for joining us today.

Absolutely. Well, I'm very happy to be here.

Awesome. Well, the question that I have for you is, as a leader, you have, you have been in the game for a long time. You've been at the top of your RevOps game for many years. You know what it takes to be good at your job. You know what it takes during the year to get everything done. So I was wondering if you could just give our listeners just an understanding of your job. What is a day in the life of Noah Marks?

That's a scary, scary venture right there. You know, it is. The reason why I really love this role is because there is some— there's some continuity between the day to day. But it varies considerably depending on what's going on at any one particular time. And there's an— there's a huge aspect of— there's a huge draw on creativity in this role. And that would— that's what attracts me because there's an element of this algorithmic connecting the dots where you're trying to figure out what's happening in the business at any given time. And you're trying to be most useful in the long term by looking at how do we make things more predictable and repeatable and increase productivity over time. But those are the things that you want to focus on today to align to that. And so any given day, I mean, I'll start— my days can start super early. Folks I'm working with either in Europe and the East Coast, but oftentimes it's, it's collecting around what are my priorities. So the very first thing I start out with every morning is going through all the things that I kind of have on my plate and just making sure I restate my priorities for the day. I think one of the biggest challenges that people get sucked into, or the pitfalls that people get sucked into, is being really busy and not actually accomplishing anything. I do not have inbox zero. I don't— it's, it's the idea of like, if it's not as important as the other stuff I have to do, it's just going to go by the wayside and I'm never going to be fully finished. But as long as I'm tackling the things that I need to make sure I take care of today, a lot of that for my team is And again, for context, I consider— I think of myself more of a coach where, you know, I'm not going to be scoring goals, I'm not going to be making assists, I'm not going to be saving goals, but that's going to be my team. And so I need to make sure that my team is out there doing the right thing, thinking about it the right way, being able to make real-time calls and judgments and not have to defer to me. So I have to empower them. So I spend a lot of my time on a day-to-day basis thinking about where I'm potentially a blocker. I need to either be providing more guidance and more vision to a North Star to some teammates. And other times I am a psychologist and I am, you know, or psychiatrist, sit down, you know, sit down on, sit down on the couch and let's just talk about stuff because, you know, it's every, every job has, you know, it's not as glorious as any other job that appears to be, but there's always challenges, right? So thinking through what's happening. Making sure that you're— everyone's got to be in the right mindset. And then, and then thinking through again, what are the things that I have to make sure that we're aligned with across the company? So these are things that are usually interconnected dependencies. Usually planning is a big— was a big thing, and that certainly consumes a lot of the second half of the year for most of my peers, but also just on the elements of like, what are the big things we're tackling, the thematic challenges or programs we're tackling at any given time to make sure that those are continuing to flourish and continuing to progress. And so it's really just like I get up in the morning, I'm like, okay, what are the things that I— you know, there's certain things that are going to wake me up in the morning that I can't stop thinking about, right? But then ultimately just prioritizing those. And some things, those things that keep you up at night aren't the most important things at the end of the day that you need to be tackling. And so that's, you know, there's only so many hours, no matter how much you work, but focusing on those, those top 3 to 5. And if I can get those done, then I'm in a luxury of tackling other things.

I really love the way that you're positioning that. You know, I have always prided myself in being an efficient person, right? So I was one of those inbox zero people.

Yeah.

And as I have, you know, gotten older and matured in my role, I am prioritizing a lot more, just like you, because I've run out of hours and I've run out of time, and there are certain things that are more important than other things. And so I'm fully aligned with what you're saying about waking up in the morning and saying, what main things I need to do today. Just to picture this, what time do you usually get up?

It, uh, it'll vary, but there's oftentimes, uh, 5 o'clock. Uh, usually I got to get the kids out, you know, ready to go, so it's usually about 5, maybe 6 o'clock at the latest.

Oh my gosh. Okay, do you, do you get a good breakfast? Are you a breakfast guy? Do you do a green drink?

So my— I wish, uh, I would love to have that sort. My, my cadence is I'm usually woken up by my dogs Um, so the first thing I do is I, I get the dogs and, and we go for a walk. So I'll just walk for like a mile or two with the dogs. That's oftentimes when I'm just like catching up on like what's happened overnight. My boss wakes up 3 hours before I do. Uh, he also wakes up very early, so there's usually a scattering of, of comms that I'm going through. Um, so that's just kind of my way to collect myself of like, here's, here's like surveying the land, here's all the things that I'm thinking about, here's kind of what's happened overnight or in other parts of the the world, and then thinking through how do I prioritize my day. So it's kind of my— it's a little meditative, you know, it's that—

yeah, I love that—

you start. Most of the time I'm working out of my home if I'm not traveling to one of our locations, and so that, that does create that break in the morning. Um, and then I come back and it's a whirlwind of getting the kids ready to go to, you know, to go to school, you know, whatever else they need to bring in for practice or whatever afterwards. Um, and so after that kind of flurry goes, then it's usually just making sure I got a good cup of coffee to start, and then it's usually those calls are pretty early. I'll oftentimes on a call at 5:30, 6 o'clock in the morning as well.

Oh, wow.

I'm doing these things. But it's just that balance of like, there's stuff I gotta do in my personal life and there's work and it's all hours. So it's making sure that I can kind of balance those two things out.

It's a big challenge, I think, for a lot of people post-pandemic. Yeah. At least it is for me to be able to balance personal life versus your work life, and it all does kind of blend together. I start my calls not as early as you, but I start them at 7 in the morning, sometimes 6:30, and it's kind of like, you know, I will like drive my daughter to school and try to get off 15 minutes early so we have a little time together. But it is always that challenge, and I feel like for RevOps leaders like yourself, um, where there's just so much to do it's really important to take that meditative time and have the time for your family, which is why I wanted to lean into it more. I think that you do that so well and you really prioritize your family and other things that are important in your life. So I think that's very—

that's good. And the other thing I feel is important is I also communicate that to my team. So I'm going on a vacation. I took a couple of weeks off a few months back and I wanted to make sure my team was aware of that. Like, like I expect them to take at least a vacation or time off every quarter. Take at least a week off, like you've got to go and reset yourself. There's no endgame, you know, even if you do, you know, we think about what our careers are and what we're doing day to day. Even if you take a break and go to another job at another company, there's just— it's just ongoing, right? So you've got to make sure that you're, that you're addressing your own personal needs, whether it's, you know, staying athletic and eating the right foods and just, you know, going outside. You know, we all forget that before COVID you know, we took phone calls without a video associated. Right. And so, like, you don't always have to be on a call with video. You can just go outside and take a walk. And I used to take— I mean, I remember this, used to go one-on-ones around the block, right? Just outside, walk around. So I think there's an element of like, okay, how do we think about the idea of what screen time requires and how do you make sure that you're just taking care of your personal life? Because it can get mixed in this. And I just see when that happens, there's an imbalance. On my team, I can definitely see it in, you know, the stress levels. And so it's just one of those things. It's like, we've just got to make sure that there's a— it's a marathon, you know, at times there's sprints, but it's— this is a marathon.

Yeah, I love that. And you got to stay in shape and you got to keep your, you know, avoid the burnout and keep your mind ahead in the game. Okay. So you've got your coffee, you're starting on your calls. Yep. You've got your priorities. And then, you know, what percentage would you say of your job is strategic versus operational versus tactical?

It's, you know, I am, I'm not a very good individual contributor anymore. I'm going to have to tell you that my modeling skills are just not what they used to be. I did have to share a model that I'd had about 10 years ago with somebody recently, and I shared it on the confidence they weren't going to laugh. But I don't think you ever get out of the expectation. I think where I try to spend most most of my time is the strategic lens of what are the biggest things that are opportunities or challenges to the business. I think as, you know, as our role, our role is to help the entire company scale. There's people on my team who are aligned to sales or customer success or other parts of the business. But my role is to help tie it all together. And what am I seeing across those points? And what do I need to elevate up and share with my peers at the company? That's what I feel is my foremost responsibility. There should be this idea that seeing all these different components moving, is there some opportunity that we're seeing as a result of this? And so that's where I try to spend my time. It's difficult to do that in 30-minute increments. So those are times when I need to just block some time on my calendar just to be thinking through and get creative and just start digging into the data and just seeing where it takes me. Um, I try to do that as much as possible. I think that's first and foremost to the business. That's my most important to my team. I'm spending a lot of time going through tactical, more operational, logical arguments. I've said this before, but I love the concept of there's no one right answer, but there's something that has more logic. And so having those discussions with my team and hearing what's happening in their front and just thinking through the logic so that they can be better prepared as they're encountering these issues. So when I'm working with my team, it's a balance of strategic, It's operational. It's very tactical. It can, it can range. But the idea is, I feel like if, and this is what I tell my team, that at least 30 to 40% of your time should be focused on the things that you will then in your next job interview talk about, the things that move the needle, the things that are, nobody thought of this thing. We came up with this idea. It's going to be incredible. Let's go build it, launch it, whatever that means. That's what, you know, you just think about, like, we're never going to be at the same company for the rest of our lives. So in that interview, if you were just to think forward to that interview, that next one you have, what are you going to talk about? Are you going to talk about reading your emails and being on the— like, no, it's like, what's the really interesting stuff that moves the needle? And if you can attach yourself to some of those things and have those become your passion project, then I feel like you can really move yourself through your day and you're contributing more value or being more strategic as a whole. So trying to figure out through my team how they can behave like that. Change management's a big thing that I deal with. So I think that's, that's a strategic element, but it's also very tactical at its heart. It's, it's the Maslow's hierarchy of survival.

Right.

When there's change happening and scale happening and uncertainty, you have companies with all levels across. And if I'm trying to help navigate and align and figure out what the best solution is for our company, there are going to be people in there that may push back, not because it's a bad idea, but because it's different. And what they've known, what they— how they've been successful is very different than that. So thinking through those things, you know, playing a little bit of chess in my mind about, you know, not to outmaneuver them, but just to think through how are people going to react to things. I found that myself in the communications element, I will, because I'm thinking about these things every day, all day long. Everybody else in the business most likely are not. So thinking through and taking a step back, okay, here's what we're going to do. Is everyone aligned? Is everyone's, you know, is everyone's North Star going to overlap in these projects, or I need to come back and think through, think through it a little bit differently. So that area is, I mean, my answer is very varied, but it's, it's a, it's a combination across the board.

I think that nugget of telling your team 30 to 40% of everything that you do should be things you want to talk about in your next job interview. That is a fascinating nugget that I'm going to start using with my team. It really helps align them strategically in thinking like, is what, is what I'm doing important? Does it matter to the overall scale of the business? And I think that's, I think that's such a great piece of advice. When it comes operationally, right, we think of like this, our strategy is like people, processes, technology, right? So I have a couple of, we've talked a little bit about process. How many people report to you and how big is your business and how many RevOps people do you need for say marketing operations or customer success operations like you were mentioning?

It's interesting. This is very topical. This probably the most frequent question I get is about what does a team need to look like? And there are some good— there, I mean, I have some internal benchmarks that I use as kind of, you know, back of the envelope. This is probably how many people will need for any sort of given area. It ultimately depends on the complexity of the business, the geographic diversity. The RevOps world is an interesting one because it depends If you're talking about, it can include Salesforce admin as an example. So it's really most of the metrics out there are very vague in that sense. But the way I would think about, I think about the strategy and ops world in 3 buckets. One is more strategy-related business partners. So these folks are aligned to business leaders in the company, whether it's the CMO, CRO, Chief Customer Officer, you know, you name it, the commercial leaders out there. Then there's folks that are more systems process technology oriented. That's more holistic. That's more ops in my mindset. And then there's an analytics bucket of folks that are focusing on what's happening with the trends and the datasets and digging in to understand what's going on. And those 3 areas are, to me, is what makes it really successful. The strategy part, the business partners advising on what we should be doing. The health of the business, how we can actually hit our targets or exceed the targets. Most of that will then be prerequisite that there are systems and processes that can support those items. So that's the second part of the team to make sure that works with them. And then the data tells you where you are, how you're tracking, whether or not you're actually following the right directions. But it's hard to know where you want to get to if you don't really have a good understanding of where you are today. And so that grounding in the data, the operational data, which I should assert that it's very distinct than the financial data. It's more so what's happening right now in the system, in the teams that you can gravitate towards and act on. And it should be something that's highly visible to the rest of the business. So when I think about metrics and overall, I would say if there's a— I quote a number of different sources on this, but I think that In general, it's probably about 15 to 1 for the, the, the people that, that you partner with versus the size of an ops organization. Back of envelope, and it's going to vary. I would break that down even further to say like enablement, 40 to 1 as a good example. So you kind of, if you're a small organization, I would start with 2, you know, minimum. But as you kind of think through this, and I think this applies from kind of the $50, $75 million up to 3/4 of a billion. These ratios tend to hold true. Business partner roles, 30 to 1-ish. You know, marketing ops is usually in the 8 to 10. I've seen some that are 13 to 1. Depends on the complexity, the tech stack, the campaigns they're running, the multiple products, the geographic regions. CS strategy and ops, very similar to sales in terms of at least 15 to 1 overall, but 30 to 1 on the business partner side. And then on the kind of the systems and operations side, it's more so do I have the areas of the business covered? Do I have— if I'm owning the technology pieces, the go-to-market tech stack, do I have people that are aligned to like territory, somebody that just manages the territories across sales and CS and has that and they're using, for example, Forecast to drive that, or somebody else that's thinking about just accounts and contacts and the governance of the data. So for me, I would say like my, my perfect scenario would be probably no more than 5 direct reports. I think that's very manageable. And then the team can vary. I've had teams up to 75 total, which includes enablement, deal desk, you know, more PMO sort of roles, the, you know, kind of the functional ops teams. There's a new era of like product ops, which is coming back a little bit like product strategy and ops, which is the run part of the business that's not currently covered by the go-to-market RevOps world.

Interesting.

But it should be. They need the data and the cuts every bit as much as the rest of the business. So there's a lot of this evolution. And so I'm more so just, do you have the things you need to do? And again, I'm happy to showcase any of the core benchmark ratios, but those are mostly just to say, are you in the ballpark? Of what is out there today. Is it, is it reasonable what you're thinking about putting together? Is it just far off the charts one way or another?

Oh yeah, this is so, so helpful. And you mentioned the tech stack. So what does a go-to-market ideal go-to-market tech stack look like to you?

It is, I think the go-to-market tech stack is the, is probably the biggest area of tech right now. Of the kind of the infrastructure landscape that's in flux. I think the GenAI components that are now out there and the small startups that have originated through the COVID times are going to massively transform and disrupt this market. I think there's a bunch of change out there. I would like in the last 4 years to be almost like the 2008 to 2011 era. So many incredible companies were born out of that era of people leaving their big companies, starting something small. We're seeing so much of that happen right now. So many cool glimmers of things that our people are doing, um, that is starting fresh, rethinking how the, the tech stack goes, um, you know, whether or not people are thinking about a, you know, universal interface to— and all their technology sits in the background— to whether or not it's, uh, Gen AI kind of mapping that customer flow. Um, it's the data interactions, like plugging all those things together to understand what your business look like, what does a customer journey really look like, and are you actually adding value to it? Everyone's talked about that for years, but every technology is a silo. And so I do think that there is gonna be more, more of a platform play across that because I think there's a lot of commoditized functionality in there that, you know, is, is interesting. You know, but I think a lot of it is there's a lot of companies that do this, right?

And a lot of prospecting tools. You see a new AI prospecting tool every day. There's a new one. That's one that I think is commoditized like you're talking about. And that's very interesting to me to talk through like the platform play because you see some of the big roll-ups like Zoom's now got Zoom Engage as well. They're AI prospecting. And it's interesting to see the data. And the prospecting coming together in ways that I hadn't thought of before. And I love that part of it. When it comes— so as a marketer, I'm very interested in leads. And one of the things I'm curious about is, you know, there's been a lot of talk about, you know, lead routing, lead scoring. Is the lead scoring leading to the right lead routing? How do you think about that in your mind?

That's a good topic. This is one I've spent a lot of time on lately and over the years because I think this is one where inherently the lead scoring is fundamentally flawed. Most times scoring is a score that somebody thought of and based on a number of interactions, that score builds up and it hits a threshold and all of a sudden now it's the right time to go engage. If you think about that as a standalone, it's kind of comical that that's the process that has traditionally worked. To do any better though has been really difficult because you need all the data to sort of all the signals that are happening across and the orchestration of all the data between communications with your prospects, with customers, what a good prospect may look like, the mindset of customers right now when they go and engage in websites, All of those things are constantly in flux, and the best models I've seen out there are individuals updating the model on a month-by-month basis because it's, it's changing so much, and that's just not realistic. So I think GenAI is fundamentally seeing the change there. I've seen some really cool technologies. We're looking at one pretty heavily. That's just, it's, it's, it's going to tell you when the lead is good. Everyone's like, what's, you know, do they use BANT? Right, these qualifications. Well, you know what technology is good at? Maybe telling you that they think that this is actually a good opportunity or good lead to pursue. So it's not an arbitrary, you know, mark that somebody on the phone call heard something that they think might be the right thing, but you can actually use data to reinforce it. I like that one a lot. The lead routing piece is also interesting because that's one of those tried and true challenges of a business where Every company I've ever come into, usually there's, ah, people are on the wrong roles, stuff's getting routed to the wrong stuff. We don't know if it's stuff. Oh, we just found these 1,000 leads that nobody ever responded to because it went into this old email thing. I mean, I think the listeners may— that may sound very familiar because I think that happens.

It absolutely— I mean, you're really like hitting at the core of some of my anxiety over the years because I've been part of that where, you know, one time as a consultant, I got hired to to understand whether all the MQLs that they were receiving that the sales team said were bad were actually bad and, and how they were coming in and what was happening. And so it took us a month to figure that out, right? Um, to— because you had to unhook all the technology and review every lead by hand. And then on the lead scoring piece of it, I laugh because that's why everyone says MQL— why marketers change MQLs. Because it's fundamentally based on the lead scoring of what people think might be a good lead. And you have to, you know, change that over time to get a good lead. And so then, of course, salespeople are just like, marketers change MQLs to suit their needs better when it's really just the process, the flawed process of how do you build a lead scoring model.

Yeah. And actually, so this, I don't know if I've told you the story before, but this is how I got introduced to, reintroduced to Bala. So we of course worked at Salesforce together back in the day, but then at the company I was at right after that, we had a break in our system right around November timeframe, and we ended up having what was rated a D lead being routed to our SDRs for follow-up. And it turns out they were scoring every bit as well on those D leads as the A leads. And it just like my head exploded. I had this epiphany moment that I'm like, are we just overly reliant on these systems that are out there right now, which is so fundamental? And then when you dig into it, it's literally somebody had to say this means good or this means bad.

Yes.

And it was so arbitrary that that's when I actually started looking around and ran into, into Bala, um, and the team back, uh, in the day. That was like 9, 10 years ago, I want to say, something like that. Um, and they had just started on that venture. Um, and, uh, but that was it. That was kind of the, the core problems that you're like, there's got to be better ways to do this. Um, And certainly on the routing front and then the scoring front too, it's amazing where we still are when you think about the advances in certain parts of the business and all that. And some just have been left behind, I feel like.

Yeah, I think so too. So when it comes to lead routing, this is kind of my last question because I care so much about this as a marketer. How do you score or how do you— excuse me, I'm going to move more into routing now. How do you route accurately? What have you found in your own tech stack that gives you the best routing capabilities?

So I am a 3-time Fulcast customer, I think now, or 4-time. No, I'm a 4-time member now.

Wow.

Last time I will actually say I didn't even purchase Fulcast. It was already purchased before I got here. So fundamentally, the reason why I've gravitated to that, and again, I think I've mentioned this previously, so no surprise, but I The last two companies, Fulcast was the first product I bought because what I really gravitated to the whole, the theory behind it was it's basically fixing Salesforce from the inside out. So if you have the right, because it's the, the orchestration of territories, if you have the right people in the right territories, lead routing is super simple. Most of lead routing tools that are out there today are banned. Most, most tech stack items that are out there today are are around because they are Band-Aids for where Salesforce fell short or where they didn't develop their product line. They kind of built the 70% and let people kind of do what they needed. So all these things kind of happen on top. And I don't know if I've ever been talking to any company anywhere that said, oh, their Salesforce data is excellent, right? Everyone says my data is bad, like, is this the stuff? And there's accounts in the wrong thing and the hierarchy is wrong. And it's like, it's not that difficult, right? You have Dun Bradstreet for your account data, you have ZoomInfo, your contact data, and if you have Fullcast running there for, for the orchestration of your territories and the roles, it all works. And that's the thing which I think is, is kind of fundamental. It's like if that stuff works, then you're starting from the inside out. And if your contacts and, and accounts are, are reliable, then that just spreads its way and that just makes everything else. You're able to put together good territories, you can actually make a rep successful. And so it's that thing about, you know, I mentioned early on making stuff repeatable and scalable, it starts at the fundamentals. Like, if you don't have the right sort of data in place, you're not responding to leads in time. You know, one of the things that you guys all built, which could be its own company, is a speed to lead. The idea about a global sales dev organization that's, you know, oh, everyone's responding in 72 hours. Well, that's because we're measuring on a Friday in APAC. And by the way, they're not— they're out of the office until Monday. So guess what? Right. Just fundamental things and the ability to track, like, are you even getting back to your customers in time, whether it's 5 minutes or at least within an hour? I think there's so many of these things that are just missed. And if you can solve that front end of the, of the funnel, I, you know, again, the 1% solve there is much more important than the 1% solve at the end of the funnel. So we're, you know, even back to how you started the conversation, which is how do I spend my day? The strategy aspect, a lot of it's like thinking about our pipeline. The pipeline is your lifeblood of an organization. It's something that everybody across the company can get involved in, from marketing to product to partners to sales dev to sales. Everyone can be involved and can contribute. And so part of that is making sure like your top of the funnel is as big as possible to get the, the right level of quality. And if you have bad quality, then you're just going to be wasting your time throughout the rest. And if you can get really well done, which is, which is why I love the idea around a better lead scoring because then your team is going to spend more time on the things that matter and not having to pursue things that, you know, might have been a glimmer, but it was a false positive and they just wasted an hour of research and of a discussion and then realizing that there's no opportunity. So I love that idea. If you have the right data in place, you're getting leads to the right people in time, it's the right quality of leads. That's like table stakes for me. It's like foundational stuff. Like I can't— I have a hard time tackling other elements in the business if that stuff is flawed. And so I, I'll be glad.

So, so basically you, you build it correctly from the ground up, then these Band-Aid leads, lead scoring and lead routing tools become unnecessary because your territories, your accounts, and your contact data are all done correctly from—

right, because it's all done within the system. So if a lead comes in and you have somebody has this type of account, this region, it will go to person or that language, you know, support or whatever it is. The way Salesforce was kind of designed, and I feel like where people get challenged is people try to overthink Salesforce. They try to make it too complicated or one-off it, and there's, it's a system for the masses that can work at a broad scale, but you have to work with it. And I think people fight it by trying to do all these really weird things. At the end of the day, none of that really matters. Just have it work at its core. And you don't, you're to your point, you don't need all these other things that kind of sit on top and do these band-aids because it just works as it is. Now, it's never always done. You're always gonna be continually updating and tweaking and improving stuff. But it's gonna be a lot better if you just let the systems work as they should. And then you can focus on other items. I mean, don't try and reinvent the wheel, particularly in that, in that world.

I love that. That is so phenomenal. Thank you so much. That's great advice. I'm going to go back into Salesforce right after this call and start looking around as well. So thank you. And I know I've taken up so much of your time and I'm so grateful. My last question for you in its entirety is how do you stay on top of your game? You are clearly at the top of your game and have, you know, have led RevOps for so long. How do you stay on top without burning out, without getting like, you know, overwhelmed, being able to take trips to London like you're doing next week and do things with and still have that stamina to keep going?

It is tiring, but I think it's like anything you do. It's like I found this world in my fourth, my fourth career switch. So there were, this was, there were three other things I did prior to this stuff in the last decade. But I found a passion for it. And if you can get into something where you love, like building— and people ask me the time, how do you get into this world? Or how did you know? It's like, I didn't really know. I kind of stumbled on it, but I was looking and it hit and it made a lot of sense. I think the mindset— there's a mindset issue or there's a mindset challenge, which is there's no one right answer. And that's why I love this space. You know, I saw folks leave big companies, folks leave Salesforce and they replicated it somewhere else and it failed because it's very unique to the company. There is best practices that you can absorb, but it's by, you know, it's by engaging in my day-to-day job and I love talking to other companies out there and just hearing what they're going through and you get those nuances and I've talked to my peers in the industry and we're kind of like problem solving, but it's, it's at the end of the day, all this stuff is there's, there's what's right for the business based on the leverage you have. There's only so many levers pull, but it's trying to think through what's going to be the best thing. And there's nothing better than building something that's successful. I mean, I take it personally. I know my team takes it very personal when the orgs don't do as well as they should, because we're really trying to build something that people years from now will be like, man, that was, that was an incredible organization. They really built that up. It's that aspiration to be part of that, of that greatness concept that I think pursues me to continue on. It does get tiring with life and in general, but that's why I say you've got to make sure you have time for yourself. You take vacations, you get downtime, you spend time with your family. You know, everything's going to be there tomorrow. It doesn't go away, trust me. But just kind of make sure you do that. But if you're not in it, you don't find excitement in it. It makes it very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis. Or if you're in a culture that's not fun and promoting and encouraging to take risks and encouraging to lean out and do the right thing. It can also be problematic. And so it's also finding that right org that you work with. And I've fortunately found great people over the course of my career that I continue to work with. Company I'm at now, just, you know, love the people that I'm there and they're all forward thinking. And so that makes it really, really helpful that, you know, that you're on a team where people are like, let's do this, let's just, you know, let's make this great, no holds barred, vulnerability in our answers and let's figure out how to do this together. So it's that team mentality that I think you need as your support layer.

I love that. So taking a little vacation time as you need it personally, being part of an organization that's got a great team, understanding, you know, the vision, wanting to be part of a winning team and, and be part of something great. Those are all excellent pieces of advice. And thank you again. I mean, it's, it just goes to show the depth and breadth of your abilities when we've talked about in, you know, half an hour everything from what you do in a day to deep on the tools to career advice. So thank you again, though. I really appreciate your time.

You bet. Super happy to be here.

Thank you. Thank you.