Prasad Varahabhatla: Mastering RevOps From Data Integrity to Personal Growth

Welcome to Go to Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go to Market is sponsored by Fulcast, the go-to-market cloud, and I am your host, Dr. Amy Cook. Today we are privileged to hear from Prasad Barhabadla, Senior Director, Sales Incentive and Master Data Operations at Philips. Prasad, how are you doing?

I'm doing awesome. And how are you, Amy?

I'm doing well. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining me on this early morning to talk about everything RevOps. And it is so exciting to have someone of your caliber and your experience come and talk into the depths of what RevOps is and why it's important and why it's really truly one of the fastest emerging jobs in the industry. So thank you again for being willing to come on the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, thank you. Well, today, in our conversations that we had earlier before this podcast, One of the things that you mentioned that was so insightful to me was what is that connective tissue that makes the RevOps process stronger? I loved your idea of connective tissue in terms of like an organization as a body. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Yeah, sure. Right. I mean, I think RevOps has been around the block now for 8 or 10 years. That's when it started. People started talking about revenue operations as a concept, right? Otherwise we had sales operations, we had marketing operations, we had customer success operations. And customer success operations also is pretty new. Sales operations is the only thing that was there for a long, long, long time, right? When we started moving towards recurring revenue, software-based services and all that, where we actually are not now selling a widget— widget has a serial number, you scan the serial number, life is done— we're actually now moving to more of software and recurring revenue. Yeah, the need was felt. And also, if you remember, the Technology Association has this entire racetrack, right? Right? Where there is more to the life cycle of a customer with a company than just landing the sale. There's stuff that you do before you land the sale in terms of marketing operations, where you talk about leads and prospecting and stuff like that. You take those into opportunities, you convert them into orders. But even after you convert them into orders, you have to start thinking about, okay, how do you make sure that your customer is adopting the product, adopting the software that you have to go with it, and where you create enough stickiness that it actually converts into an annual. Now, when you start thinking about that, there is a lot of people who are involved from point A to point Z, but a good or successful revenue operations. And when I talk to some of my peers in the industry, one of the things that connects all this is the flow of the data from point A to point Z, meaning from the time you start prospecting a customer to the point where you convert into an opportunity, to the order, to actually when it goes into when we go towards customer success, when you actually are ready for, let's say, renewal of a subscription. The point is that what you need to not lose, Saeed, is the integrity of the data that's flowing through. If you create processes that don't align this flow of data from one point to another, where the data from the previous step is actually adding value to the future step, right? Yeah, that's the one big thing around revenue operations where you need to start focusing on, where you need to think about this as a one continuum of of process as compared to 3 or 4 or 5 different processes.

I love that because I feel like beforehand we used to see sales operations as a column, marketing operations as a column, customer success operations as a column. And now the way that you're explaining this with the flow of data, it's more of a cycle and like a continuous stream. And I think that that is really the end state that we're all trying to get to in RevOps. And it sounds like you have really done a great job over at Philips in other places that you've worked with connecting that data and making the data flow?

Yeah, we, we, we try, we try, we do, we try to make sure that there's not too much that you do in terms of creating breaks in the flow of data from a source system to the final out, uh, final place where the data is going to be used. And then the output of whatever process you manage, you need to make sure that it goes to the next step in a seamless manner. I mean, it's extremely important to get this part right, because most of, most of the value that we can generate, and if you think about, start thinking about how people refer to one of the things people refer to, when it comes to revenue operations is customer lifetime value. You're not thinking about the customer in a transactional way, you need to start thinking about the customer in terms of Okay, what is the full lifetime value of this customer and am I there right now? And what are the other ways in which I can use the data that I currently have about the customer's preferences, customer's buying patterns, and customer's needs to actually convert that into the next thing that you do with the customer so that you can maximize the customer lifetime value and also build a great relationship that actually stands the test of time. So I think one thing that people underestimate is having this data and having this connected tissue is where they can— it's almost like it becomes where you, your own money starts generating more income for you, or your own data starts generating more income for you because you know how to use it intelligently.

Oh, I love that. So what are a few things about that you've learned over the years about the flow of data? Like, for example, where is it most likely to get stuck in the operations? That's one question that I have always wondered.

Yeah. And this is where I can— I have seen it multiple times, both implemented the good way and the bad way, right? When you— one of the things that I care about, especially when we are doing tool implementations or systems implementations around any of these processes, one thing that I'm extremely passionate about is you should not be touching data that's flowing from one system to another. In several companies, they do not spend the time and effort and energy that's required, first of all, to classify what is the source of truth for this information. You actually will have 3 or 4 or 5 different versions of the same data in different systems. I'm not saying they're all completely different. They may be 80% together, 90% maybe similar. Or you actually create processes where, okay, the data will come to this point. At this point, Jack will take over the data, download it into an Excel spreadsheet, do some beautiful manipulation, and then upload it into the next part of the process.

Yeah.

Anytime you create something like that in 2024, there is no manipulation that somebody can do in Excel that a tool or a system or an IT platform cannot do better and faster. So somewhere along the line, data integration must be a core concept that you consider across the end-to-end process. You need to classify what you believe is the source of truth, the one and only truth that you believe where That's the only place you pick data. Like, if you have a customer master data, there has to be one place that feeds everything else. You can do whatever you need to do to enrich that part, but you have to hold that particular system, that particular process, that particular area accountable, put governance around it. But the point is, you need to call out the sources of truth and make sure that everybody refers to the same source of truth. Because I've seen in some companies where there's 4 different sources of a particular hierarchy.

Interesting to me because I've actually been in companies like that before where marketing uses HubSpot, sales uses Salesforce, customer success uses a different, you know, a different CRM. And, and, and the personal conflict that these leaders have with each other just trying to get the data right actually creates rifts within departments. And it's been very interesting for me to watch that it's— this is not just a data, this is not just a business. Thing. This is like personal relationships at stake, right?

Yeah, that, that is there. But even if you assume for a second that people have preferences for different— let's say maybe HubSpot does a great job of leads, but Salesforce is great at opportunities— connect the two. I mean, there's no religion around tools. If you can afford the tools and you already have the tools and you're still using the tools, connect the tools. It doesn't matter.

I love that. I love that one can have what they want. Yeah. That is a quotable quote, Prasad. Everywhere, just connect the tools. That's all you got to do. And then for Philips, what is the single source of truth for you?

So I mean, I think at least in Philips, we do have an Informatica-based system for our master data management. We do have Salesforce for our opportunity management, and we use SAP for our order management. And for the most part, many of them are connected. There are some parts of the process where we are not there yet, but at least the journey is on and the understanding is there that these, these need to be connected and we are on the journey to make sure that we get that done.

That's one.

And I, I worked in my previous company, some of these things were connected for years now.

That's awesome. That's awesome. So that's one of the, like one of your personal missions I can tell when you come into—

Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah.

That's wonderful. And that just goes back into, you know, the river and the flow of data and how important that is. So you also mentioned before to me that you said data is the superpower, and if you don't use it, you're failing. Can you explain a little bit more about what you meant by that?

So, I mean, end of the day, today, right, uh, every decision that you make and every— or even to decide what you need to make as a decision, right, you have to depend on data because there's nothing that we do in revenue operations or sales incentive operations or any of these operations that we do in service of the customer. There's no touchy-feely stuff here. This is all— I mean, obviously the relationship our sales team has with the customer, that's where you have the relationship aspect of it. But every decision is earmarked on the basis of leveraging the information you have and the information you have about the customer, about what we have done in the past with this customer, what their particular needs are. Everything is driven by data. So when you do not leverage data enough, like for instance, as an example, take something like you have your install base. You already know that you're serving this particular customer for the last 10, 15 years. They have maybe, let's say, 100,000 widgets from your company. Now you know that some of those widgets may be coming up to end of life or end of service. Now, if you leverage that data properly, you can actually know well in advance, maybe 15 months or 18 months in advance, that I have an opportunity coming up with this customer where I can flip this particular device that I sold to them 10 years back with the latest version of that device. Now, if you do not do this in a timely manner, if you do not have a systematic way of— and by the way, people do it even now. Let's say we do this kind of analysis in some companies. The problem is, is it a systematic process? Is it something that happens not just because Prasad remembered to do it, but it's something that the system tells you that—

that will notify you so you don't have to wake up every morning thinking, wait, is this end of service day?

No, no, they don't do that. I mean, that's not how bad it is. However, there's a lot more— that's it— there's a lot more you can do where you can unearth opportunities that you didn't know existed. Be very, very ahead in the conversation because it's a competitive market. It's not that we are the only company who delivers a particular product. Our competitors are also always there at our heels trying to get the same customer.

I have actually been part of competitive takeout marketing campaigns where we have targeted an end of life for a— for— I won't mention whose company, but we've, we've targeted that and tried to roll people over onto our system instead. So I totally understand what you're saying. And that is a superpower that can yield millions and millions of dollars just by knowing that data. That's a really good example.

Your install base has your future business if you can use it properly.

Yes, I love that. That's another quotable quote for me. Your install base has your future customers if you use it properly. I love that. And with, you know, I was reading some recent statistics with Gartner and a few others that just barely came out. 70% of B2B opportunities are are from within their own install base, just exactly the way that you said. Only 30% of business is new business in B2B, and it's getting harder and harder to grab those new customers. So absolutely love that.

I love that. Yeah, getting new customers is tough, right? And so, and retaining old customers— don't make retaining old customers tough.

That's right. I love that. Well, so as we talk through integrating the data and the river of data, how do you ensure that we don't lose integrity of the data as we go through that process?

Yeah, I mean, again, as long as you know how the boxes connect, what information is relevant in each step of the process, because remember, all of these are transactional activities, which means as you keep doing more transactions, more data is getting added. The important thing is to understand the entire, I mean, the architecture and flow of this data. But if you don't create breaks in the process and breaks in the flow, and you don't create a series of outside of the system manual processes, and even if there are manual processes, sometimes they are necessary to have a reasonable method of getting all the insight or intelligence or data that's generated out of this outside process and put it back into the flow one way or another. Again, see, I know that automation is great, but automation requires investment. Sometimes you're able to do it, sometimes you're not able to do it. We have to be pragmatic about it. But the point is, do not lose sight of the fact that even if the process is outside, how do you get the data that's generated out of the process? Inside again and keep the flow going. Right. That's basically it. I mean, it's iterative kind of process. Obviously, when you first— if you're designing a new solution or a new product and you're making an investment in a technology now, let's say in 2024, then there's no excuse to leaving anything outside. So one thing that I keep saying is if you're in— if you're implementing a big project, and you're looking end to end on something, if you don't fundamentally change the role of the people who were working before in that particular process, you're not doing enough.

Interesting. That's a great rule of thumb, huh? That's a— that I've never really thought of that before. Just, it is really a fundamental change.

Absolutely. Job content has to change. With technology implementation.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, um, you mentioned a single source of truth in— and that journey to get there, especially for some large enterprises who over time have accrued a lot of technical debt. Um, in a perfect world, how do you set up your systems properly and in the best way to get that single source of truth?

I mean, I think these things are already defined, and especially at least in mature companies these things evolve over a period of time. But the point is more about governance because most companies know what the source of, like for instance, for opportunity or lead information, Salesforce is the source. Okay, no argument there. But then if you have different business units or different organizations still doing something on the side, they may take the data from there, but then they do all kinds of enrichments or anything else outside of it and you lose that, you don't have that visibility to that, then you are not necessarily using the single source of truth properly. So which basically means the need for that of the time is one thing is to determine what the source of truth is. The second thing is to put some governance around it that people cannot go off the grid and do—

I see.

And even if they go off the grid and do stuff, You are able to track them like you put GPS on everybody who's going off the grid so that you know where they are and how to get them back.

Yeah, that makes sense. So things like in Salesforce validation rules and forcing that particular, you know, the particular motion through the process, I think is super helpful.

Yeah, there is nothing that the tools of the world today cannot do around the revenue operations and sales operations processes. People sometimes— I've been in situations where they say, okay, this tool sucks or that tool sucks and this tool is broken, that tool is broken. The tool is not broken. The way you're using it is broken.

I love that. The tool is not broken. It's the way that you're using it that's broken. Well, that's one of the things that just from talking with you, Prasad, earlier and also now that I'm understanding is I love that your expertise spans across tools and beyond tools, that for you, revenue operations is not knowing how to use the tools. It's a philosophy existentially about how we should be managing our data and how we can use that data to create an integrated process that, that helps companies grow and increases revenue. I think that's such a great, powerful perspective that I've learned from you.

Yeah, and actually I think, see, one thing is about the data, definitely. But, uh, you see, tools serve a purpose, and, uh, getting too enamored by one tool or another doesn't make any sense, right? At the end of the day, the more important thing— there too, one of the other things that's there, if you move from data to one other topic around revenue operations, is this is something that sort of I wonder about revenue operations sometimes. There's a lot of companies that have now started floating their revenue operations organizations. There are some places where I've seen them doing it well, like I can see revenue operations all under one umbrella, one, one leader. Marketing operations, customer success, sales operations, you organize all of them around one leader. There are some places where the organizations remain separate, right? And there's no saying one way is right, one way is wrong. The more important thing that we need to do is— there's a lot of people You just don't rename your sales operations organizations and call it revenue operations.

Exactly.

The problem is about also about investment. Let's say if you do merge all of these things, but significant proportion of your investments go into sales operations, and by the sales operations does take a little bit more than, let's say, marketing operations to a certain extent. But the point is, you need to make sure that you make the investments, especially on the customer success operations side also. That has to grow. You have to make large investments on the customer success side too, to ensure that the flow of revenue is kept intact. So one of the things that I was always wondering, like, you just cannot rename your organization as revenue operations without changing the organization structure. And even if you merge all of these organizations into one leader, you just change the leader. You have to change the ways of working. Yeah, how the handoffs happen between these teams. And obviously you have to talk about what we, what we talked about before. You have to connect the flow of the data and the processes that these guys are in. There will be lots of duplication when you bring these kind of organizations together. Somebody was doing the same body of work here and then somebody is doing the same body of work here. Now, how do you look at the job content and say, you know what, you do the job content of that body of work only once? See, one of the biggest sins in operations is where the same task is done multiple times in a flow, it makes no sense. Right? So somewhere along— and again, it takes a little bit of analysis, a lot of understanding of the end-to-end flow of the process. Say, where is the waste? Where is the duplication? Where is the— where are we doing redundant— where is the redundancy and how do you remove the redundancy? So as we start developing more and more DevOps organizations, regardless of how you structure yourself independently or together, The biggest thing to do is to look across all these organizations with a little bit more collaboration to understand exactly that we are, we are making the best use of the resources in each block of revenue operations. That's basically one of the other things that about revenue operations that I am doing a lot of reading and talking to friends on.

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Well, just to shift just at the end towards how do you stay strong? And I'm hoping to ask this question for all of the rest of us who are up late at night, working hard, keeping the company together. What is your go-to for keeping you at the top of your RevOps game?

Yeah, I'll come to that question. There's one thought that has been stuck in my mind Based on the previous conversation, I want to get that over and then I'll—

Oh yeah, absolutely.

One of the things is it's easy to think as an operations organization, as a DevOps organization, you, your value is in optimizing the workflow and all that. So I talked a lot about data optimizing flows and all that, but the value of doing all that is to actually generate information and insight that drives top line growth. A DevOps, I hope it's not in many cases, but should not relegate itself into a cost center. Yes, something that drives top line. And this is very important because it's easy when you use the word operations to assume that they are on the cost optimization and saving costs, right?

Yes.

The idea is to say, how is this organization using everything that's at their disposal to drive future growth, to drive top line growth, to make sure that we either land new business or secure old business or whatever else. But everything has to be predicated on how are we making money for the company. And that's the important thing around revenue operations, because it's easy to classify operations as a backend. And now I'll come to that. There are parts of revenue operations that unfortunately or fortunately have to be these backend operations. So there's a when everything is going well, you don't hear much. When things go bad, it seems like a thankless job. In many cases, there are many roles under revenue operations where it almost seems invisible and thankless, right?

Yes.

And as long as we are certain the value we are adding, and we are making sure that we are doing something in advancing the company forward, it is important to keep yourself centered because a lot of effort goes in, but you may not find the recognition or the support or the understanding of what it takes to maintain what we have, right? From my perspective, my go-to is I actually do listen to a lot of podcasts like the ones we're recording, right? So, and in the recent past, in the last 1 to 1.5 years, one of the areas of subject matter that I have become very interested in is philosophy. So I've been doing a lot of reading or listening. I actually do Audible, so I do a lot of listening to podcasts around philosophy, right from Socrates, Plato, to Stoicism like Marcus Aurelius, Seneca.

And then I am so impressed because I spent my entire PhD only focused on Aristotle. I didn't even get into Plato and Seneca and all of the others. So I am just so— we need to have a long conversation about that.

The thing is, again, I didn't realize that I like it. I knew I always liked a little bit around philosophy and all that. I've been reading it for some time, but in the recent past, what I realized is I can actually sit through, let's say, over a period of 2 or 4 weeks, sit through an 18-hour lecture, a lecture by a professor on a stage about ancient philosophy and not get bored by it. That's amazing. I mean, again, see, on the actual— and I also spend my time on keeping abreast with digital technology and digital transformation. So I do listen to those podcasts. I do listen to DevOps podcasts, but I do spend a lot of my time when I'm driving my kids around on philosophy. And it basically, I mean, one of the only— I'll say, I'll give you one of the learnings from all this philosophy. Yes, I do like Stoicism as a practice. I'm not fully Stoic yet, but I will get there sometime, I'm sure. One of the rules of Stoicism, and this is actually shared across many philosophical disciplines, is focus on what you can control. There's a lot of stuff that happens around you. The only thing is, is it something that you could control? If no, it's their task. Something has happened. Somebody did something. Somebody said something. Yes, you can. I mean, we're all human. So you can feel offended at the moment. But I very, very quickly, like my camera is doing, I quickly center myself back again. Saying that not in my control, not my task. And not my— like my wife very famously says, not my circus, not my monkeys.

I think we better end with that, Prasad, the wise quote from your wife. Wonderful chatting with you. And thank you so much for all of the amazing wisdom that you've given me personally and to all of our listeners and viewers. And thank you one more time for everything that you're doing and being that unsung hero that's keeping everything together.

Yeah, the only thing I'm keeping together is myself for the most part, but that's okay.

All right, all right, well, thank you so much, Prasanna. I guess. Business, yes, that's business. Business, yes, that's business.