Whitney Merrill’s Guide to Stellar Growth

Welcome to Go-To-Market, a podcast for RevOps, sales, and marketing leaders to dive deep into industry insights and best practices. Go-To-Market is sponsored by Fulcast, the go-to-market cloud. My name is Amy Cook, and I am so excited to introduce Whitney Merrill, a revenue operations leader who has led revenue operations at Symantec and Equinix go-to-market operations. Whitney, how are you? I am so excited to have you here today and to chat everything RevOps.

Thank you for having me, Amy. Fantastic to be here. Really great.

Yes.

You know, we were just talking about you, if you don't mind, you know, sharing a little bit about you. You got your, your PhD and how you, you came on this journey. So I thought that was a great place to start. I've been a coach for many years, and so I always like to ask where people come from. So if you don't mind sharing, that would be great.

Well, I really appreciate that. That's very kind of you. Sure. So, um, I received my PhD from the University of Utah in organizational communication. Um, I have a very interesting— what I think is interesting discipline where we combine communication, organizational theory, philosophy, rhetoric, psychology, and sociology. And so my PhD was very heavily based in sociology. And the, you know, the two theorists who inspired, inspired me the most are Kenneth Burke and Aristotle. So that's where my background is from. Um, from there I, um, had a very interesting experience. I'd always worked, but, um, I took some time off to raise kids, and, um, my husband was working at, um, Lehman Brothers in 2009. Wow. And he lost his job. And, you know, we had 4 little kids at the time, and kids have to eat, right? And so we were trying to figure out what to do. And so, uh, Jeff said to me, Amy, here is $10,000. This is what we got in our tax return.

Uh-huh.

And like, we were not paying the bills. Like, we were— we did not have any extra money. Oh. And he's like, let's take this $10,000 and let's split it in half and let's see who could make the most. And he like turned it into a game. And I thought that was so much fun. And I said, okay, well, can I start a business? And he said, yes, absolutely, and I'm going to invest mine in real estate. And so I started a marketing agency because that was my background. I had grown up in the entertainment industry with my family. Um, I had a writing background, a writing career prior to having children. And, and so I just started this business. And at first I just started getting whatever jobs I could get, and writing was my discipline. And so I, you know, would just go ask for business. And they said, okay, well, you can write, but can you design? Can you do web? Can you do— and of course I couldn't do all those things. And so I had to create a team around me. And it was just a wonderful organic bootstrapped company that gave me just a ton of experience and I learned so much. So that's how I got into marketing.

Wow. Fantastic story. Thank you for sharing.

Well, thank you. Well, tell me more about you now. Tell me about— Yeah.

Well, sure, I'll start with the Lehman Brothers since you mentioned that. I'm originally from the East Coast. I grew up in, you know, went to college and then went and got into technology selling network solutions to large companies like Lehman Brothers and others in the New York area, right? And I really found out that the passion of technology, which I loved, right, was based in the Bay Area. And I actually ended up coming out here, working at Salesforce, and seeing how that technology can really transform. I was always been in sales, always been leading sales teams, and how it could really transform, you know, the go-to-market teams, you know, sales, marketing, customer care. But until I had really seen it in action and been there in the Bay Area, I don't think I really got it. But when I got it, I really got it right. So I had done a Salesforce implementation at a company, and then I said, I want to work at Salesforce. I wanted to go work at Salesforce. And I saw, wow, this actually works. It all runs together. And, you know, for being in sales and, you know, and, you know, being customers all the time and trying to figure it out. To have a system and a technology and a platform that really supports you was very empowering. Um, it really, really launched me. I went to go work at Symantec. I actually went to work at Verisign, and we were acquired by Symantec, this big company that came in, that came in. Um, and all of a sudden, you know, a billion-dollar company was now, you know, $5, $6 billion company, and there were 10 instances of Salesforce. And I went to our CISO at the time and I said, you know what, I really believe we can get some real opportunity here if we work across marketing and customer care and sales and really kind of figure this out. But we're going to have to learn how to be part of Symantec. And so I took an enablement team, some trainers, some new business development reps, sales engineers, and built a small RevOps kind of, you know, I call it an intrapreneurship, right? You know, run a business within a business, right?

Yeah, right.

And had one of those first teams that really thought end to end and we were moving from a point solution to a subscription model. Model over a period of time and ultimately ended up running all revenue operations, the whole planning process for, for that organization, the renewal organization, and did that and loved it. And I realized, okay, this is what I want to do full-time. So I, I had been doing sales and running sales teams and helping with that, and I began to realize that revenue operations and sales operations was really where I wanted to go.

Wow.

3 things as I see it. It's really the technology piece, as I mentioned, it's process, Understanding and the process, but it's really also about understanding people, right?

Yes.

Products don't sell themselves, or most of them don't, right? And you really need those people to work together and figure a way to go do that. And that's where I began to get involved in coaching and leadership development and helping teams come together.

Wow.

Those three elements are what I love. I call like that, you know, three-legged stool with data brings it all together. People, process, technology.

I love that. And which is, which is the foundational pillars of strategy.

Exactly.

Oh, my gosh. I love what you're saying because I have always thought of RevOps as really the center of excellence for revenue, right?

Yes.

And I think what you're saying right now is it really speaks to that. It's that you have a background in sales, you know people, you got the Salesforce bug like I did.

Yeah.

And then you think, okay, well, now I need to bring it all together with operational processes in order to really pull together a strategic approach to revenue. I love—

and then the reality hits you, right? So I ended up following our CISO to Equinix, um, and went to from a $4 billion to an $8 billion company, and it was like, or it was $5 billion at the time, right? And all realizing, oh my goodness, like, they are using, you know, you, you have to look at your tech stack and assess it across all the services you're trying to provide, not only forecasting and planning and compensation and lead management and customer success profiling, um, but you have to do that across the quote-to-cash stack and all these elements, right? And then you realize, OMG, I can't do it all. There's no way I can do it all. And then the pandemic hits.

Yes.

And you go, oh my God. So the change in technology over that period, 2009, '10, '12, you know, into the, into the 2000s and the change that happened here was dramatic. And I think the pandemic changed everything with regards to what's happening. I remember going from an annual planning cycle to an annual planning cycle with a mid-year check-in to a quarterly to a monthly review. And it hasn't changed. It hasn't stopped since then. Right?

Everything has sped up just like you were saying. You know, one of the best images I have in my mind about what happened during COVID in terms of the digital transformation was there were people standing. It's a cartoon of people standing in an office, in a glass office, talking about COVID and with a big, huge wrecking ball called digital transformation.

Great image.

And I feel like that's so true because— and the pressure on yourself and others like you to be able to really hold up a business immediately like that. Like truly, you guys are the heroes of these businesses in the last 5 years and beyond, but really keeping things running.

Yeah. Well, I have a metaphor I'll share. We'll see if it sticks with you. But I mean, so I really want to give credit to the leaders that have to run the business, you know, the CRO, right? They're having to change strategy in the midst of this. So, you know, this is a role to support them in being successful and all the go-to-market leaders. But the metaphor I use is Star Trek. And you have the ship that you're running, right, through the universe, right? And you have the person at the helm who's usually your CRO or something like that, right? And they're like, we need to move at warp speed. We need to go. And they call down to engineering, which is RevOps, and say, you know, Scotty, I need warp speed, you know? And you look around and you go, oh my God, we're on impulse power here, Captain, right? You know? And—

Yes.

But we have to do this because we have to change our strategy. And you are like, OK, we're going to go make it happen. And you're there. You know, and you then have to come back up to that, you know, the deck of the Enterprise and say, okay, I've got it going. We can do warp speed now, right? And your job is being in that engine room, managing the people that are down there, but also being up on the deck and be able to make those calls. Because if they try and press that accelerator button for revenue when the systems and the process and the people won't work, you will fall, right? And so you have to be able to give them that guidance.

I don't think I've ever heard a better analogy than that. You are Scotty and the CRO is Captain Kirk.

Yes.

And if it doesn't all work, then you're sitting ducks and the Klingons are going to get you.

Exactly. You are. Your revenue is going to fall off, right? And so that partnership with that leader and that trust, I mean, we use this analogy of Star Trek, right? But, you know, Scotty and Kirk, they get along, right? And they've been through the battle, so they understand that. So he's not saying, give me impulse power. He's like, can you give me warp speed? What do I need? You know, how much time do you need? Scotty to get those engines online. And that trust and that communication, whether you're down in the engine room trying to fix the warp drive or you're up on the deck giving commands, is really what is necessary in the world we live in today, in my opinion.

Oh my gosh, that is— I love that analogy. So true. Another thing that really resonates from that analogy is how fast these things have to happen in life and death situations, right? And in many ways, like, you had to really accelerate change, right, during this time? How in the world did you manage that?

I'd like to break it down in component parts. I mentioned a little bit about the different elements you have to deal with in the complexity of RevOps, but ultimately you're dealing with what I'll call services catalog, right? The services you provide are services like forecasting and visibility and planning and compensation and again, quote to cash and lead management and all these different variables that you have to provide. And I think when you break them apart and look at those 50 to 60 services that your function is providing, you You kind of need to look at each of them as a capability and a maturity. And if you have a system and a capability 1 to 5 that is at a 5, you're like, you're good to go, Captain, you can drive then and we can hit that. But if you go and activate a service that is not ready for primetime, you're pulling out spreadsheets in the back of a pickup truck and trying to hammer it out in the dark.

Yeah.

And so understanding where and when your capability is ready to go and is online, whether it's people, process, or technology along this, it could be a team that you you did an acquisition in Brazil and you brought on a team and they're not ready for primetime yet because they haven't been onboarded, right? So assessing those services and being able to manage and deliver that and explain that to leadership so they understand it's not just a no, it's, it's not just a defer, it's this is what I'm gonna need to do right now for you and here's what I can do next quarter and here's what I can do next quarter.

So you take a really strategic perspective in this and I can tell that you put a lot of of planning and thought in how you're going to work with the people, processes, and technology. Do you have like a, like, what's your process for pulling that together? Do you like put like a briefing document, you know, that you create that and then you go to each stakeholder? How does that work for you?

Yeah. So, so an integrated framework of your services and the capabilities that you're delivering, where you are reality-wise, because, because ultimately you're really building trust with your go-to-market leaders. You're going into battle with them, right?

Right. Right.

Go every quarter and hit the number, right? And so you have to be really honest about where you are. I mean, sometimes you are just working the weekend and you're giving them something on a spreadsheet or a PowerPoint that they could— they need for Monday because that's what's needed. And sometimes you're like, no, that's a capability that's coming online in a quarter or two, and I'm going to give you this now and I can give you this later. So it's building that trust by being very clear about what you can do now and what you can't. And to pivot to Fulcast and the platform and why I got so excited when I got involved with Fulcast is, you know, a lot of these capabilities that you're asking these RevOps teams to do are not fully available in the tech stack that's available today. It's not there in Salesforce. I love Salesforce. It's not there. It's not there in your marketing stack. It's not there in your customer account. And to bring and extrapolate a RevOps, you know, it's that back to that enterprise, you know, that dashboard running the ship, right, for RevOps so that you can really give those insights to to your go-to-market leader so they can make the bets. That is a game changer, and that is— it's table stakes for what we need to do in this environment of rapid change. We haven't even talked about AI yet, right? Look at the change that is happening to us in that space, you know.

It's unbelievable, and everything has pivoted so, so quickly. I love what you said again about that dashboard. That analogy like works so well. It's amazing, like, because really, like, with RevOps being the center of excellence for revenue, right, you have that strategic overarching perspective and you have, you know, you know what needs to be in that control and command center. And then you have like, you've got Salesforce for sales, you've got HubSpot for marketing, you've got Gainsight for customer success or whatever, and you pull it all together and you understand how everything all works together to make it flow properly. So it's interesting.

But if you don't have that dashboard or that command center available, you're throwing bodies at it and you can't throw enough bodies at it. Or spreadsheets at it in this amount of time. You have not enough analysts in the world that can crunch the data for you, right? And so that is something that's really happening right now for people. Sales leaders and go-to-market leaders are being asked to do the impossible and change and shift, and they're going to RevOps and saying, do it for me, right?

That's exactly right. Well, and you know, when Bala, Bala Bhaskaran, our co-founder who built the software, when he was at Salesforce, He did it in 1,500 spreadsheets and forms, which is the standard way of doing it, right? But, and then he's like, dude, there must be a better way than this. And so that's why I love, I love that we're talking about this because it really comes out of solving a problem. But I want to shift to AI a little bit about what you were talking about in terms of change. Like, what's your overall take on AI from a RevOps perspective?

Well, like, you know, we're talking about AI for sales is, you know, help me with my customer calls. What's the data you can give me to prepare me and all that, right? Marketers, how can I use it for my flow and my stack? Customer, you have that. RevOps needs the sit beside AI as well, right? Because again, a lot of the tasks you're being asked for require work, work, work to go do. And if you can offload some of that work from that analytics and that what if and that scenario building to AI within an integrated platform that learns as it goes, it's a game changer. Right? That is what is really needed. You know, ultimately it's an annual cycle because most people are on an annual, you know, planning cycle and fiscal cycle. But planning now is a regular all-time exercise. But 40 to 50% of the capacity that you want your RevOps team to do is being taken up in that, those administrative, you know, workflow.

Right, right.

And so if you can offload that, you then can have them do the higher order work is those insights. And, you know, give me my what-if scenarios and, and show me what I would have done if I went to market with this product in this area over this period of time. When you can bring that together versus I'm doing Excel to, you know, map out 67 territories over this group, it changes their ability to deliver for the business. It's again what I'll call table stakes, you know.

I love what you said there. That makes so much sense. So, you know, with— I fully agree, Fulcast has the, the AI-enabled what-if scenarios what-if scenarios and modeling, which is awesome. One other thing that you mentioned, again, I keep going back to Star Trek and with this imagery. Scotty was integral to the entire operations, not a support function.

Yeah.

And what do you say to people who view RevOps? Because I've been in companies before where the RevOps leader is is basically relegated to the admin get-it-done guy. And that's not how RevOps should be used. So what do you say to people who are trying to do that?

Well, I come up with those scenarios and I say, well, what did you do during the pandemic? How did you pivot? You know, what was your engagement with RevOps or sales ops or, you know, whatever silo you were in? What was your engagement? How did you go solve that problem? What's neat when you have kind of an existential crisis that's just been on our doorstep, right? Previously with pandemic and now AI, people are being asked to deliver on this, right? And, you know, look, there are administrative functions and services that you deliver within a revenue operations function. I understand that. But again, when you're trying to pivot strategy, where you're doing M&A or you're shifting your business model, change your route to market, these require understanding at a higher level, right? If they don't and they won't engage there, well, then that's not a partnership. Right? You know?

That's right. So I would imagine that the people who are using— I mean, it seems to me like if you're trying to use them as a support function, you're pretty much screwed.

If you're using them as a support function, you're not getting the most out of it. And just like anything, you want to get the most out of the functions, the people you have, right? Again, back to salespeople. If you can get salespeople better prepared for sales, customer-facing engagements with AI, you're doing that. So you're trying to supercharge your RevOps to give you the insights, to give you the data, to allow you to pivot, to allow you to go to warp speed. What I tell them is, if they get my analogy, you want impulse power? No problem. I can do that all day long. I'll take a couple of weeks off and I'll come back later. You want warp speed when you need it, when you're in the middle of a firefight? That's where you need RevOps on deck with you.

Can I just please put that on my quote wall? That was amazing. Well said, Whitney. That was awesome. Well, I mean, it's clear that you are at the very top of your game when it comes to RevOps. I really appreciate your perspective and your framework is just outstanding. How do you stay on top? What do you do to keep yourself charged? And, you know, it could be anything.

Yeah, no, um, you know, I think that it comes from being on the front lines, you know, and being a sales leader and handling customer calls and support calls and selling to customers is I believe you have to keep touched with that at all times. So, you know, when we all sat together with sales and when that was available before a lot of us became remote and moved around the world, right, I would sit with the sales teams and I would listen. I would sit with the customer teams and listen to their calls, right? I think that at a minimum, being on a customer call and a customer-facing engagement call at least once a month is a minimum for a RevOps leader. You have to sit in their shoes and you have to listen. I think the other thing is, apart from that sounds like a great best practice, is remember you're going to have to go back at some point to the CRO when they want to pivot and make a change. And these are the nuggets that I usually bring. I mean, sure, I can talk, well, remember the problem we had during the pandemic? But if I can say, you know, I was on this call with this large enterprise customer and they expressed this need related to what you're trying to do, and I have those nuggets in real time, it changes your ability to have that real conversation with them.

Oh, that's so insightful. And it really does all come back to the customer, right? So if we are all trying to be customer obsessed, it only makes sense that we would all need to understand what the customer wants and feels and believes and hear it from their, from their own words, which I love.

And a lot of times you're then pivoting from the call to the person you're on, you know, the customer success person who was dealing with an IRA customer for whatever. And you're saying, well, what would you have needed to in order to address that problem? And you're right in the problem solving, which if you don't like problem solving, don't do RevOps because this is your day to day, right? But whether it's sales or customer care or marketing, right, you're listening to them and saying, how can we help you solve that problem? And most of the problems is the other point I really want to make is I mentioned the different groups is most of the problems are end to end, right? It's not that this customer is upset. It's, you know, they had a billing issue or it's a quoting issue. It's an ordering issue. It's a, you know, a pricing issue. All these things tie across the end-to-end value stream. So the more you can see the pieces of this, the better you are able to— when you need to give warp speed, I can give it to you because it's all tied together.

You know, I love that. Yes. Well, thank you so much for your incredible insights. I would love to— I hope you'll come back on again and talk about something in addition to this, because this— I just feel like we barely scratched the surface. It was so wonderful chatting with you, and thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for having me. This has been great. Thanks so much.

It's that business, business. It's that business.