19: Should You Attend Conferences as an E-commerce Owner?

Hello and welcome to the Product Growth Lab podcast hosted by Andrew George and Melissa Pickle. This is the podcast for creative product-based business owners who want to grow their businesses without overwhelm or massive investment. Each episode, we explore actionable strategies, real-life stories, and insights from business owners and experts who know what it takes to succeed. Whether you're just starting out or looking to scale, we're here to help you grow your business on your own terms. Subscribe and join us each week as we dive into practical advice and inspiring stories to fuel your growth journey. This is the Product Growth Lab. Let's get started. So hello everyone. Today we're talking about one of Andrew's and mine favorite things. Should you attend conferences as an e-commerce business owner or not? And this has a multi-layered answer. I thought there's a key few keywords in that title that say no and some that say yes. Should you attend conferences? Yes, as an e-commerce business owner, maybe not.

I think it depends which ones. I think there's definitely things to get out of it, but I don't want to spoil the whole podcast in the first 10 seconds.

All right, let's get going. Does anyone listening actually attend conferences? I feel like that's a good question to ask.

Yes, two of us do. But that's one thing to put in our Facebook group, on social, wherever you know us. Let us know, have you been to any? Which ones have you been to and are they worth going to?

Or on the flip side of that, are there ones that you want to go to? That's important too.

Yeah. And do you need to have the same, whether it's worth it for you? 'Cause there's a lot that sound very exciting, but depending on what kind of business you have and what your goals are for the event, they'll make it, okay, this is worth going to, or this is not worth going to. Like, are you there? Yeah. Are you there to build connections? Are you there to find people to collab with? Are you there to hear from particular speakers you want to hear from? Or are you there to find customers? And I think for the most part, unless you're in that B2B world, like for me doing email marketing, like it does make sense, especially if I can find ones where e-commerce business owners are. But for me, as the e-commerce business owner with a Personalized Gift business, I'm not going to find customers there, but I don't think that automatically makes it not worth going. I can still go to a conference and find, well, I can find people I want to hire to do stuff and outsource social media or the podcast or anything like that. I can find people to collab with on different things.

As an e-commerce person, you can definitely find collaboration opportunities at a conference.

Yeah, there's most likely someone someone who does something adjacent. There's hopefully other e-commerce sellers. There's people you can connect, like they're so, I'm like, there's like, it's so broad, like the way you can collaborate with people. Like if there's people, I don't know, who have podcasts, you could be a guest on a podcast. If there's people from like the press world, maybe you find like a media outlet where you can go as an expert and get your products into their magazine or whatever it is they do. And like, there's so, so many things. And even just finding like really good friends, really good people who you may never collaborate with in any way, it's great. Like, I've been to a conference recently and like there's, there's people I will collaborate with, there's people I've collaborated with in the past, and there's people who are just really good to meet. And I also think that, and like there's no way to tell how this is ever gonna happen, so it makes it really difficult to judge a conference by, is people know other people. Like just because you're like, wow, this person that is like, I sell bow ties, I don't know why that's bursting into my head, it's a real weird example. But I sell bow ties and this other person at the conference is a fisherman. I'm not sure where these things are coming from. I'm not sure what kind of conference I'm at. He's a fisherman who sells fish. And you're like, okay, we're probably never gonna collaborate, but the fisherman knows the editor at Bow Tie Magazine and ends up referring you there. Like you never know where those kind of connections are gonna come from and just getting to know people and don't do it in a, like, I'm expecting them to know, like, just genuinely meet people and get to know them.

The people you think are gonna have the least in common with you usually have the person that you need to talk to, which is really cool. Yeah.

Building network. I also, I think that's true in all of this. Like LinkedIn is one of those places where you're like, why would, like, people add you randomly and it's like, mm, should I? And it's like, they know people. Who know people, like it, sometimes you end up with the best kind of connections from someone who can refer you to someone else. So it's really hard to tell where those connections might come from. So I think there's all, like, no matter what you go to, there's always a chance, but I think picking the right events will also increase your chances.

All right. So I feel like we started out like really wandery and vague here. So I want to go back just, just 30 seconds and be like, why bother going to conferences? Like, should you even bother going to conferences? Kind of things. Because most of them aren't built with product sellers in mind. Now, there are dropshipping conferences. There's— you can find any interest out there, there's a conference for. There's subscription box conferences. Like, those are pretty cool. I've considered going to that one in New York, uh, because I'm right outside the city. But most conferences going on are not typically product-based for product-based sellers. A lot of the ones, like especially the ones that Andrew and I go to, are more for coaches, digital people, all that stuff. But they can be really, really amazing anyway. Definitely, as Andrew was saying, the people that you meet, um, they typically have some connection that could be beneficial to you in the future. But also just hanging out with people— come on, business is the loneliest thing that we do, right? It's the loneliest job out there. Getting out there and making friends friends at these kinds of conferences who are also going through the same stuff you are, or very similar track to what you are, is so amazing. I know I have people that like, screw the conference, I just want to go to hang out with the people that I know. So like, that part of conferences is absolutely astounding. And they can open your eyes too, because we get kind of locked in on one train of thought and one train of marketing. So these can open your eyes to all of the options that are out there and different things you might not have considered just because we hang out by ourselves in our studios by ourselves, maybe talking to a couple of people by ourselves. Right? That's why you listen to our podcast, to get crazy ideas.

And I think that, um, Even when the, like, since I go, the presentations aren't geared towards e-commerce, but there's always a lot you can take and adapt from those. And I think gaining that skill is really good. Like, I know, like, recently I was at AutomaCon and it definitely leans towards like your service providers, freelance kind of thing, but there are e-commerce sellers there. Like most things I go to, I do find that there are a few. In there even if they're not tailored to that. And I think at Tongva, like, they don't— like, I think they are quite welcoming of Pride people and definitely have purposely have them in their community. But there's like so many things like sometimes presentations are more about like mindset and learning perseverance. They spoke a lot about, um, like working with people and having like this whole big dome of Lili, which is a whole episode in itself. I'm like, there's so many of these things that you can apply to. There was presentations on like social media and the future of social media. And also that applies to anyone doing social media. So I think there is still a ton of things to take from that. And the same speakers, people you want to see. Atomic Con always have like one, or maybe even multiple, but like at least one kind of famouser person who did like the general public. Would know. And me, like, the past 2 years— I was like, I've been to 3. Like, the first one was so exciting, good to me. But the last 2 are 2 people that I grew up with watching on TV. And like, being able to tell myself, like, 10 years old, whatever, that you're gonna be sat in front of that person in real life, it's like amazing. So sometimes just to have an opportunity to say, okay, I've been in the room with Debina McCall and Fran Cohen is like an amazing opportunity. And even like sometimes that's just worth it.

It can be. It can be.

And you sometimes— and I said, well, aside, but you realize how businessy people who don't come across as businessy are. It's like, okay, they're both TV presenters, but in different ways. They both ended up— they kind of have a business. They are. But even before that, becoming a TV presenter, there's a whole— because you're a personal brand and you have to do the social stuff. You have to put yourself out there. You have to— Davina last year spoke about wanting to be on MTV and sending in a tape again and again and again until they told her to stop. And she was like, okay, if you want me to stop, you better tell me who I can actually send this to and then I'll stop sending it to you. And that's how she got on MTV. But that's kind of businessy, like the whole rejection and the go for no and stuff. There's so much starting to apply for that. You guys have— there's a whole mindset shift that comes from a lot of these things that I don't think you can get online in the same way. That you can learn from going to place in person and learning from people who on the face of it might not seem like your business owners, but totally are. And I think those are often the things that stick with you and you realize that, you know, everyone is in this and it has to do these things and you kind of leave with a whole new mindset. Even if, yeah. Like even if you don't get a, here's how to set this thing up on Shopify and here's how to do this.

Here's how to take better product photos.

Yeah. Which I actually, some, not everything is like that though. I did go to, it wasn't a conference. It was more of like a, I don't know what you call it, but like a one day meetup. Like there was some talk.

Like a one-day conference?

Yeah, well, it wasn't a conference. It was like a thing, mini community event. I don't know. It was hosted by Adobe, but they call it like a content circle or something weird. But there was lots of stuff and they had stuff for Pride people. They had someone who was talking about Pride photography. We had a good conversation because it's something I suck at. So I think finding that community is, and I think some places are starting to realize that they need a bit of it. There are places that do cater to product people as well. I don't think they are automatically kicked out. I think finding the right events can be difficult, but they're there. And sometimes you're like, I can't find anything, I can't find anything. And then you finally find the thing and there are like 5,000 other people there and you're like, how did I not know this existed?

So let's do that. Let's talk about choosing the right conferences to go to here. Because you just go out there, you're like, I don't know, nothing looks good. Oh, 18 million of them look like so much fun. What do— like, what— set us some parameters for yourself on like, what kind of conference do you want to go to? Are you looking at the speakers who are going to be— I always look at the speakers. Is it people— if Ed Mylett is speaking, I'm going. And I highly recommend anyone watching this, if you have an option to go to a conference and Ed Mylett is speaking, go. He's amazing. But do they have strong speakers? Do they have workshops that you can go into? Is it getting— putting together the people in the room that are your kind of people that you want to hang out with? People that you want to be like? Sometimes it's great to go to a conference a little bit above your station to see how those people act, how they talk, how they are living that life, because you know that's the identity that you want to pick up. It's a reason I go to a lot of conferences.

It depends on your goal. Like if you're there to get stuff out of speakers, you need to look at the speaker lineup. I like, as time has gone on, I think I care less about the presentations and more about the other people who are going. And I'm happy, I'm happy to skip sessions if I can have a really good conversation that builds a relationship instead. Cause like the things I go to, not all of them, but the ones where I will do that always have the recordings and I'm like, I'd rather just sit home, watch the recording and take any action I want to take from that instead because I've built relationship, I've got a new client, I've done whatever instead.

Like the hallway and break conversations are the most valuable part of a conference. So don't go and sit there by yourself with your notebook and just write or be on your phone. You can talk to people.

Yeah. And you can talk to people in rooms. I met people like as we were waiting for presentations to start, like you can still make connections in, in the room as well. And there's like, I know someone who will often, cuz they want to meet clients already have and future clients and people, sometimes they'll sneak into the like wherever the event's being held without a ticket and just like sat at a chair and invite people for conversations and meet them there and like, I'll buy you a coffee and they're like, I'm not interested in the actual event at all. If you can find one where that would work, I think a lot of them you might struggle to get in without a ticket, but you can do that. You can, like, if you know people are going to be there, even if you're just somewhere really close by. I think it's so easier.

Hang out at the Starbucks next door.

Yeah. And if you're at one that's in a hotel, like they can't shut the, unless somehow they managed to pick up the entire hotel and every single room, they normally can't shut off the hotel to just the events. You can still get in reception, you can still hang around there.

All right. So Andrew, what's your favorite conference to go to?

See, I only really go to two, and I love them both for different reasons. Otakon is like big and it's exciting, and I see the most—

giant party.

Yeah. And I love— I also go to Adventures in Mark and Edinburgh, and it's like, it's local— er, not that much. It's, it's in Scotland, um, it's a lot smaller, which I like I can like have real conversations and meet people and do like more close connect, more intimate connections because there isn't like thousands of people there. So I do, I do like them both for different reasons and I think it's good to like, I think that's another thing when we speak about picking things like conferences and events, What do you want to go to? And like a lot of people find, and it's gotten worse over time, or like better as, 'cause it's bigger, but it's gotten busier over time and more people find it really overwhelming. And like you see people in the group who are like, I left in tears, had to go home. Like it was just too much.

That depends on the kind of person you are. And this is where our polar oppositeness definitely lives. 'Cause I thrive on that high energy, rush the room, screaming out like you're at a concert kind thing level engagement and excitement. And like, I feed off of that energy even though I'm not an extrovert. That like fills my tank for a year.

But what I'm saying is you need to think of what your goals are and what you like. Kind of like if you're gonna find that overwhelming, don't go for the big conferences. Do you want to find the, like the ones of hundreds of people? Or do you want to go like Eventbrite would be a really good place. Like, do you want to find the things that are like 10, 20 people in a room. Like you still, they are all, yeah. And there's great connections to be made in all of those. And sometimes, sometimes it's better to be in the small tailored room where the people you really want are instead of going to somewhere where there's like 1,000 people, but it's hard to get to speak, to speak to them. They aren't the right people. Like finding the things that'll work for you. And if you find it a bit kind of overwhelming and scary and how do I start conversation? In that room of that many people, find a smaller room. Maybe work your way up to it.

Andrew does little things, I do the big things. No, Atomicon is a big one.

Yeah, Atomicon is one of the biggest in Europe. It's just, it's gotten bigger every year and I do think like, it's great and there's lots of people and there's great energy and I do really love it, but it's made it much harder to meet people. Like, I had to go, I had to have a group of people, I went with planned in advance. And there's a bunch of people who, like, we always said, oh, I'll see you at Tomacón. And we're like, oh, I'll see you. I didn't see you. Like, there's, in that crowd of all that people, you never came across them. And it made it harder to kind of have those things. There's people who I see once or twice a year. And we like meet and we hug and we chat and stuff. Like I didn't get to do that this time because it had gotten so big. And I think that—

I'm not gonna lie, I'm also the person to buy the VIP pass. So while there is a run on the room sometimes, the Funnel Hacking Lives were great. I sprint trained for that room. That was great. That's now done with it. The other ones like the Growth Hacking Live I'm going to in September, the AI Bot Summits that I go to, all of that stuff. I usually have my VIP pass and there's a reserved like 2, 3 rows in the front and you just walk up and you feel really spoiled. Mm-hmm. So big things to look at is will I actually implement anything I learn? And being okay with yourself, you feel like I'm going to see all the cool stuff that's out there and I know that I'm not gonna change a thing, but at least I wanna be aware of all the cool stuff that's out there that I could do. Do you want connections? Do you want strategy? Do you want hype people? Do you wanna feel inspired? Some people go to conferences just to feel inspired and like get reinvigorated. Sometimes talking to a million other people about your business gets you reinvigorated if you're feeling kind of blah. So those are all really good or things to think about when going into conferences. So now that we've decided we're going to a conference, be it a 20-person or a 20,000-person, like, what do you want? Let's look at how to get the most out of it. We already kind of covered that pretty well. I feel like we've been a blend of all of our topics this whole time.

Let her end here.

We did that. Okay. Setting a goal, hanging out in the hallways, finding your people, knowing what to say when someone says, wait, you sell physical things? Because they're going to be so flabbergasted and entertained and intrigued. So know how to describe what it is you sell.

Yeah, be able to describe what you do. In one sentence, like having that elevator pitch thing, like, hi, I'm Andrew and I do this, or I run a business that does this thing.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Is really important. And having easy ways for people to like having a QR code, having a business card, having, I saw someone who had like a bracelet thing and if you tapped your phone, it did Oh, it's an NFT bracelet thing.

That's cool. Not NFT, it's a different word for that. So was anyone walking around Atomic Con with the QR code backpacks, with the LED backpacks?

No, that's a bit too flashy.

You guys really are boring.

Jeez, it's like, it's also that there's not a ton of spaces that can hold the amount of people that go, and it's, it's cramped. Like the Like, I went in my kind of slightly flashy denim jacket thing, that custom embroidered stuff. Barely anyone saw it because everyone is so crushed in together. Like, that was the pre-pandemic, even the smaller room. Like, barely anyone saw it because it's too— like, there's not— you kind of have to be at a distance to be able to, like, see someone. Like, you don't stand out. So I think there's definitely— yeah. It's definitely getting slightly more squished in the past few years. But yeah, I'm sure she's going to find Andrew and Pete and be like, hey, look at this. People did see it. Yeah, I think someone had like the QR code tattooed on, like temporary tattoo, not like an actual tattoo.

That's funny. I have a lot of friends with the backpack.

Yeah, having enough, having like easy ways for people to get in touch with you. 'Cause I, like I went as an email marketing e-commercey kind of person, but people saw the damn jacket name and they were like, oh, I might be in touch. Like what can, like this is awesome, how can we do this? So people are still looking for physical products. People, I don't think there's anyone at any conference who's never bought a physical thing. Like you can still find customers just—

We buy a lot more physical products than we do digital ones. You buy physical products every day.

Yeah. So, and like, even if it's not like your ideal, like there's still people who buy things. Like what's the sales Julie, like any room she goes into, there's likely someone who would buy that. So you can still make connections even if it's not a jewelry, in fact, it would probably be more effective to be a non-jewelry conference than a jewelry conference. Well, to make sales.

Yes. I would go to a jewelry conference to get better suppliers, better product deals, wholesale accounts, that kind of stuff.

Yeah. A lot of what we're talking about today really goes back to goals. I don't think there's one size fits all. I think different people get different things out of conferences, and I also think it changes. Like the first year I went to GemmaCon, it was all about different presentations. And I did it. I met a couple of people, like, I didn't do a ton of the networking. Like, it was the first in-person thing I did. It was the first time I'd, like, traveled on my own. Like, it was like, Brian Shaq. More like the past couple of years where I've gone, like, with a group and I made lots of connections. And I, like, the second year it was the connections and I still went to all the presentations. And then like this year it was really far more about connections and meeting people and clients and things. And I skipped a couple of presentations, but I made use of that time. Like I didn't just waste it. I deepened connections, met people, there was a bunch of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Um, like that. So it all, it all really goes back to going, I think, Like every time I've gone to the same event, my goal changes. And it's like multi-track and shit like that. Like Adventures in Marketing is different because like it's single track. Apart from there was a couple of breakout kind of things last year. Like it's single track. There's no, like there's no hallway thing. Like you go in the door, up some stairs and it's the thing. In their room. So it's slightly different and you sit through the whole thing and then you kind of go down afterwards and kind of chat and stuff. And then like a group of us were like, oh, we're going to go out for a meal. And I made connections that like, it's totally different dependent on the vibe. They've been chatting about stuff lately and it's like they're going to have a proper pre-party and post-party and stuff. I think those things might be the like I will attend everything because of the way it's set out, but I also have those opportunities to meet people. And like we went for the meal and then we all— it's quite cool because a lot of people stay at the same hotel. So we all just kind of sat in the hotel bar, made connections, met some business owners who are more than a little bit tipsy. And you make very different connections with a drunk business owner than a sober one.

Be sure to get the picture.

Yeah, but don't shake on any deals. Don't be—

you're like the calm, we'll go to dinner afterwards kind of thing. Meanwhile, the last conference, not really conference, it was a cruise, but it was with the conference people that I was on that night. We're like, we're waiting, we're all starving, we're waiting for dinner. So we try to sneak out to go to dinner. We're going to go to this Italian brick oven pizza place, Luciano's, something like that, in Key West— or not Key West, in Fort Lauderdale. And we're trying to sneak out, and we're trying— like, the inner group is like, whispers, okay, we're gonna go catch a, uh, we had a golf cart cap, we're gonna catch a golf cart to go over to this, this place for dinner. And by the time, like, the core of us had made it outside, there were like 50 of us, and we needed 3 or 4 of these ginormous golf carts. And we ended up on karaoke golf carts. Karaoke golf cart cabs going because there's no parking. It's easier to go to golf cart when you're in Fort Lauderdale. It's awesome. If you ever get the chance to karaoke, it's great. But that's the kind of stuff that starts really building those relationships, especially if you don't know anyone. Just attach yourself into a group that already exists. And it's so much fun. But yeah, that's the wild crazy things that we do. Poor Andrew would be in shock if he came with me to one of my events.

I have other stories. I'm like, I'm keeping it safe for the podcast.

Okay.

All right.

Let's talk about—

I have other stories about Edinburgh I could tell you, but to save the embarrassment of the people involved.

I figured karaoke counts.

And myself. But yeah, and that's the other thing I would say is I've learned this over time. Sometimes you'll be at an event and you'll feel like a little bit out of place and like you're different and like you think everyone knows each other because they're all having conversations and they seem like they're talking and they're laughing and the conversation's flowing. But if you actually talk to them and ask them those people just met 2 minutes ago. Like, they just were the confident people who managed to go up and start a conversation. Like, you feel like everyone else knows each other, but really they're just all talking and laughing and having fun. And I think, like, you can be quiet, you can be shy, you can be nervous, you can be anxious, but, like, if you can kind of get over that and work with that and talk to people, I think you'll realize that you're a part of it. And people are really welcoming, especially if you find the right event like Atomic Con and Dimension Market are both really friendly kind of events and don't attract the slimy people as much that, yeah, people will make you feel welcome and want to talk to you and not just be there to, I don't know, to like sell or to make you feel uncomfortable and stuff. Like, I've definitely— I've been to things in the past where it's like, oh, these people are so slimy and want to know what they get. Like, I went, spoke to someone once, and I could totally tell once they started talking to me, it was like, okay, they want to know what they can get with me, what can I do for them. And the second they realized I wasn't in the industry, it wasn't what they wanted, they like turned to someone else and just completely blanked me. I'm like, okay, Fuck you.

That's okay. You didn't want to talk to them anyway.

No, no. They came over to me because I accidentally was just like looking and accidentally like glanced at it.

Made contact.

Oh crap. They're walking towards me.

But yeah. If you want to meet a lot of people, finish.

Well, just finding the right event and making sure that has your vibe, I think is important. And I think Like, it's kind of hard to tell unless you go once. Sometimes you have to kind of make a mistake once. Um, but yeah, finding your vibe. And like, it's, it's not one size fits all. Like, Milos's vibe and my vibe are probably very different, um, and what we'd want to go to.

Yes.

Yeah.

That's okay. Cause that's gonna say if you're an introvert and you're going, you're like, oh my God, there's a ton of people here and I don't know who to meet or any of that. Make best friends with an extrovert and they will drag you around to everyone and you will know the entire room before the end of the day. Just tag along with an extrovert.

And sometimes it's not about someone has to be an extrovert, it's someone who knows people. Like, even if you're not an extrovert, if you know enough people and are like known enough, people just kind of talk to that person. Like, I, I never know what to say myself because things like Atomic Con and big conferences and seeing people and getting to talk to people and doing lives and stuff is what fires me up, which is an ex— like, that is an extrovert. Do you get your energy from people? That's extrovert. But I am like the kind of quietest, shyest person until you get to know me. Like, most of you are like, really? You'd never shut up. But yes, I'm like, I don't know what I am, introvert, extrovert, whatever. But I know enough people from like— sometimes I'm kind of shy and quiet and find it hard to talk to all these ones, but so many people know me from going to them and going to other stuff and just showing up around places that I'm most of the time in conversations. But yeah, hanging out beside some people or hanging out behind someone like me who just knows enough people. Like, I went— like, when I was at a talk, I was with someone who was kind of anxious and was kind of— but they knew a bunch of people and had conversations. And they introduced me to some of the stuff, even though we kind of kept each other company and I wasn't anxious and was willing to go around the event and kind of keep them safe, but they were willing to start more conversations. So it was a nice kind of thing. And yeah, generally finding groups. Jargon is great because there's a mean freelance group, people who are freelance who we meet. There's like a community and there's a circle group and we meet every Friday and other times for stuff. I went to them, there's like 30 or 40 of them this year. So we all were in a group, pretty much mostly all in the same hotel. We met up beforehand, went places together, Ubered together, and I think that makes it a whole lot easier because you're never alone. And even though, even though, um, Some of those people I'd never spoke, like, never really even spoken to in the group and never met in person before. Like, some of the really best people I met, like, the people I liked the most and had the closest connection with were the people that I'd met 5 minutes before. We ended up going to everything together and talking the most and, like, trailing the streets of Newcastle at midnight trying to find the hotel with So yeah, there's definitely a point that I'm trying to make that I forgot. Yeah, finding your people before. Yeah, going as a group. And I do think finding your cunéi and finding— it can be difficult to find people who do the same thing and want to go to the same places. Are local enough that you can go together can be hard, but definitely finding that kind of space really makes it easier. And kind of like, I always wish there was more people who would come in from Aberdeen so we could take the train together because I think the journey would go a lot faster if you have a conversation enough with just a member of staff from the train people about what drink I want. Like, they're really nice people.

So let's move into some travel tips, energy saving hacks, food, our favorite things to talk about besides business. All right, so you decide you're going to a conference, you picked it out, you got your plane tickets, your train tickets, your hotel, whatever it is that you need. What do you pack? Becomes the key question. I get the feeling we have very different answers.

Yeah, but it depends what you're going to and how you're getting there. Like, I've done the— not so much for business events, but I've done the EasyJet where you get a tiny bag and you have to fit it under your seat. And I've done the— like, I like the train because you can bring as much luggage as you damn well like, and I'm going to. Don't Con has a— like, I feel like I mentioned Don Con a ton, but like, even Edinburgh, like, it's But I still got an extra day or so dorm allowance to explore. But yeah, Chongqing is like, there's the pre-pre event. We did a pre-pre event, then I met the Bn Freelance people, and then we went to the community mixer, which then became the pre-party. Then there's the actual day, then we went for a meal, then there's the post-party. There's 3 days of events, and you're like, okay, well, I need different kind of stuff to wear for all of these. Like, obviously things on the same day, I'm not going to get changed 5 times. I'd have to like bring a bag and get like, and have to be like, I don't know, like Superman or something, like go in a phone box and whoosh. But yeah, sometimes you like, you do need a few different outfits. But I like, I'm like, I can fit everything into one smallish kind of company bag, it's what you call it. And for everything I go to, I never bring— I've seen photos of people with like 10 cases. What are you doing?

What are you doing? I'm like, I have a week's worth of outfits.

I ended up back to my new shoe goals. I got a pair of shoes. All the toiletries I've stolen from the hotel bathroom. They had 800 chargers for watches and phones and all the tech. You'd be like, I had everything in that bag and it was heavy and annoying to move. I'm like, that was as big as I'm willing to go. Why do you have multiple cases? I don't know what you're bringing.

Yeah, I am the one bag wonder. One personal item size suitcase, unless I'm going on a cruise. Then like the one I just did, we had two suitcases because fancy clothes had to be involved. And it was fun. But I remember the first time, like, trying to figure out what to pack, and I was going to a Brendon Burchard Growth Day event, and I was like, I need to look a little bit more professional than my everyday, like, t-shirts and jeans going on here. So I went to TJ Maxx, and I found myself, like, a business jacket and whatnot. I didn't wear the business jacket the entire time because it was too goddamn hot in the place. And, like, the whole time I was there, the whole 3, 4 days, I just felt like not myself.. And one of the things that it covers, I feel like if you're gonna actually make connections with people, you have to authentically be yourself. So now I go to events and like during the days I'll wear a branded for me t-shirt, um, or jacket or what. I'm always in my brand colors and I usually got jeans and sneakers on and that's it. But that is my brand is very, very relaxed. If you are like business casual, if you are dress up kind of person, do that. Pack what actually exemplifies you going to the conference.

Yeah, and I think most conferences are like— most conferences that you're gonna have to like go to and pack and stuff for are a decent size. And I find as long as you've got at least like 100 people there or something, there's such a mix of people and what they think is the right thing to wear that you don't— you're not gonna stand out. Yeah, at Otakon there is the more like dressed up, businessy shirt and stuff. I tend to go more like nice casual, but there, there's like the people who are like just in hoodies and stuff. Um, or someone dressed as a lemon.

That's great.

That was a whole branching thing. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think like there's all like every— there was such an array of what will do. And like, sometimes you see it in Facebook groups. I think I remember the Manchester Market one and someone being like— because it has like the— I think there's extras this year, I think. Well, next year. And but this year I remember there's like the day and then there's like informal, go back to the hotel and grab a drink together thing. But they were like, do I need to bring like a cocktail dress? And do I need like— how many different outfits should I bring? And it was like, you're totally overthinking this. Like, yeah, it's— bring—

Will the cocktail dress make you stand out and be more memorable for the people you're talking to through the event? That is a better consideration. And will you be comfortable in it and authentic in it versus like, how many outfits do I need?

Like, like that particular occasion. It was a— I don't even know if she was there, but like, because people went to a Times Square for meals and stuff. But when we went back, there was like 10 to 20 people, all very casual, no one was dressed up. I think you would have stood out and been like, why is she wearing that? If you don't wear dress, like, it was totally casual. And I think— I don't think anyone— because what did we do? We went to the event walked to the place, got something to eat, and then went back to the top. So it was— we were just waiting what we'd worn the whole day. No one got like changed to do this. Um, so yeah, we had like one outfit and I don't think it would do— like, you don't want to do the camera work. It was— it's quite casual. Like, there was, there was a baby at the table in front of me. Like, it was like that kind of casual. You bring kids, you can bring— you can wear what you want. Like, it's not this kind of formal fancy event. So, which is what I like. If it like, okay, if it was some sort of black tie event, you have to like go back and get dressed or something, I'd be like, okay, I'm not buying a ticket to this.

I got all the dresses for the cruise and the black tie dinners. But anyway, beyond that, let's get to the next thing about conferences, which is food. Very, very, very important is Food.

Okay, but when it comes to food, I think the thing that has run through this whole episode is that there's no one-size-fits-all. It all depends. Again, are you there, I know, are you exploring a new city? I want to try all the different foods. Are you like, I'm on a budget and I want the amount, like, what can I make with the cat all in the room. Like, what are you looking to get for? And again, will the event feed you? One of the things I like about Otakon, and Adventures in the Market can do this too, they both give you lunch. I wasn't a big fan of Otakon's past 2 years. Weird sandwich. I'm fussy with sandwiches. I don't like mayonnaise. I don't like cold— I don't like a lot of cold things. It should be hot. In my opinion. I don't like— yeah, I'm just— I'm too fussy. I don't like a lot of salad stuff. Um, yeah, so I like to bring my own, but they do feed you. Um, and then, uh, Avengers of Markham last year— I can't remember— they do feed— yeah, they fed us both years actually. Uh, yeah, it's like a hot meal. First year was soup, and last year they had like a char siu, like, actual meal meals. So that makes it easier. Again, there's things like breakfast in the day, and I think if you're going to a conference that lasts the whole day, set yourself up with some good food. And then what you're going to do afterwards.

So a lot of the conferences I go to, they do not feed you, or if they are feeding you, you paid for them to feed you. Um, so I tend to go as cheap as I can. I'm in the US. I get— if I said this is a multiple-day conference, which typically are the only ones that I go to, that I travel for, I will have a Walmart delivery to the hotel and I will get a coffee maker that actually does, you know, 8 to 10 cups. I will have heavy cream dropped off. I will have coffee brought with me. Typically I'll pack the filters and whatnot that I need. Um, I will have snacks, breakfast muffins, uh, trail mix. I will have all of that delivered to the hotel. I will get stuff for making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches so I can eat in the sessions, or I can eat that at lunch while everyone else is eating their expensive fancy stuff that they stood in line for, for like 30 minutes of our 45-minute lunch break. I am all about that, like getting the snacks, getting the breakfast, definitely the coffee maker. Or at lunch, if you're at Burnout, I go up to the room and I make myself a fresh pot of coffee and it's wonderful. And also bringing the great big water bottle. Because it's always iffy on if they are going to provide water, and if they are, how much water they're going to provide for you. So I'm always bringing myself my own giant water bottle that I can bring to the table. And I'm usually Googling, is the water in this area safe to drink from the tap? Because if it is, I'm refilling my water bottle at the sink bathroom if they don't have refillers there. Yeah, luckily bathroom sinks. I say sink bathroom. That's a good one.

Yeah, luckily in the UK you don't really have to worry too much about whether water is drinkable, but I don't know, someone who's in Scotland, which has the world's best water, fight me on it, um, like English water just doesn't taste as nice, and the further you go, the worse. Like, I know I thought Newcastle's water wasn't as good as Aberdeen's, and London's was like sewage, um, but all safe to drink supposedly. Um, but yeah, I'm like, I'm quite go with the flow. I do like to run to a shop to get stuff. I think it's the whole, like, the way UK and USA are, but I feel like in the US, if you don't drive, it's hard to get to, like, a Walmart, whereas in the UK—

it can be, yes.

Yeah. Whereas in the UK, there's normally, like, a small kind of shop, like a Co-op or Sainsbury's Local or Tesco. Express kind of thing nearby. Like, when I'm in Edinburgh, there's a market. I'll normally, if I have time, try and run out to one of those for snacks. And like at Comic-Con, there was a great big Tesco, like Walmart-sized supermarket that I managed to run to. Although, that's a whole random aside, England has stupid Sunday trading laws about how much shops are about are allowed to stay open. So I like ran there, like, you know, I left Apostille, it shut at 4 on a Sunday. I'm like, it shuts at midnight or something in the Aberdeen one. So I'm like running around trying to grab as much snacks as I can and there's like announcements coming on. Yeah, there's like an announcement on, store's closing. I was like trying to run around like, like just grabbing stuff like Crazy.

That looks tasty.

Yeah, because the— I don't know, I mean, like, a lot of people have, but, uh, yeah, I think breakfast is a big thing to set yourself up well for an event. A lot of people— well, not a lot of people— a few people had the hotel breakfast, and supposedly it was overpriced and not very good.

I have never met a hotel breakfast that was reasonably priced unless it was included.

Oh, I'm Premier Inn for me. And like they do everything. It's like $9.99 or something for unlimited food. I'm like, that I'm very happy with.

Yeah, usually the buffet breakfast at the conference hotels are like $40, and they're like, no, no breakfast is worth $40.

Yeah, so set yourselves up with something. I normally will get something like, you get the little porridge pots, you just add water to, like, it's a simple thing. Um, are— what do I do? Sometimes I'll go to like, if it's on the way, if I could— like, I've never been to one in a hotel, so there's normally a walk. Now, like, if there's Starbucks, Costa, Black Sheep Coffee, something, I'll like go in on the way, grab like— I don't have luck with weather, so normally it's cold. It's like grab a hot chocolate for warmth. And some sort of breakfasty thing from there and do that. And like, Tonkon is quite good. They have like a whole pastry table and a donut stand this year. I never went to, but it was supposedly very good. Um, so they do—

which one was I at? Uh, one of the Russell Brunson ones had a donut wall on the— at the welcome party. That was pretty cool.

Yeah, so you can find one that feeds you out, like save your money and do that. And then after conference, I think, yeah, I'm like, what should I do? I can't remember what I did the times when I was alone, but every time in the past 2 years, there's normally like, sometimes it's planned beforehand and sometimes we just spread it along, but we normally end up going somewhere decently nice to eat afterwards. It's like, Treat. So yeah, if you're saving money, there's also the choice there. What can you make in your room? What can you get? Like, I know I've done things where I'm like desperate, I'm like, okay, we're next door to McDonald's, I'm just gonna grab that.

All right. So you have your goals for the conference, you got to the conference, you've eaten at the conference. Let's talk about the post-event. What happens either if you're a multi-day or like at night of the conference after the networking and the partying is over with, and what kind of stuff happens when you get back home from the conference? Because you need to take something away from that time that you spent, unless it's just that you went to party. Like it's okay if you just went to party, that's fine. Um, but usually we wanna take something a little bit more away from that. I know one of the things that I do each time at the end of the day, because like I said, I'm usually doing multi-day conferences, we're going to have 20, 30 speakers going on. It's a lot to retain even when you write notes. Is when I lay in bed at the end of the night, usually I'll take my event notebook and I'll write down what were my top 3 takeaways from the event that day, from the sessions, from conversations, the hallway, doesn't matter what it is. What were my top 3? Maybe even just an observation about how they ran the event because I'm in the logistics I'm a very disoriented person. But I'll write down my top 3 things for the day. And then I'll kind of like do a review thing. How did I feel? What was really cool? What was boring? What am I hopeful for? Any of that stuff. And this way, when the conference is over and I go home, I can look at— I already have my action steps kind of lined out, or maybe my top 3 takeaways. And then what's an action step from that? I'm sorry, 3 takeaways and action step. And then like my general feelings of the day. And this way, when I get home, I don't have to look back over multiple days of events. I can just— and speakers and like, oh my God, this one was so good. That one was so good. What were the things that I thought I could take action on quickly? And I already have that list preset for myself. Whether I use that list or not is a different story, but at least it exists.

Yeah, I tend to be more— because all the things I go to, like after parties and all these things, Normally, like, it's the first thing, like, it'll be the first thing you talk about and then you kind of move on to more fun stuff. Like, first things are like, oh, what did you like? Who did you go see? Sometimes, like, sometimes the speakers themselves are at these after parties and stuff. Sometimes you're speaking to the actual speaker about their presentation, which is nice. But again, through that, and that's kind of how you do the kind of takeaway. And then it turns into like just random chat and then you get more drunk and then it's really random chat and then you're like, it's too late. I've walked back to the hotel and it's— I'm going to sleep. Sometimes, like I would, sometimes we'll DM, like, do you get back to the hotel? Do you do it? Like, yeah. But yeah, normally it's very late and I'm like, okay, I have to sleep. So I have to get up in the morning to catch a train home. So most of my kind of debriefs stuff happens once I'm back home. And because I'm mostly about connection, the first thing I do is message people. There's a lot of unfinished DMs. Like, being able to like chat to people, talk to them, even if you met someone— like, and people do this to me all the time— is that, oh hey, it was It was great to see you yesterday at Comic-Con. And that kind of can start a conversation. Just making sure that all the connections you make, that you kind of had some conversation with them and being able to do it kind of, I was going to say offline, but online instead of not offline. I mean, also online in a much more quiet kind of space. Like, I can read an Instagram DM anywhere. I cannot hear you when you're trying to scream in my ear when there's 1,000 people and music.

Yes.

Um, I think that's what I do. And I tend to do the more, the bigger kind of conference takeaways when I go and watch some replays and stuff online. Um, for ones that have that and things like Inventor Market and they don't do the replays. Um, it's normally kind of going back through my notes and being like, okay, what did they say? And normally I'm not good at taking notes. Answer it. Like, trying to be like, okay, what did that thing I wrote down mean?

Yes. Oh my God. What did I write here? What does that mean?

I also think being able to talk it out, because it's more the way I process stuff. Because we have our coaching group and I'll always come back and talk to them about what we did, which is as much for me as it is them really. Like Avengers: Endgame, it was often a mess and I couldn't remember it. But once I got the chance to sit and really talk to everyone. I was like, oh, the theme was sales and always be selling. We shouldn't have kept up longer, but we spoke about having daily sales activities and I realized how much I learned and how much the whole sales thing carried through the conference. And I was like, oh, this was the big takeaway and this is all I learned. And it's because I got to talk it out with people that I learned that. That works for me better than taking notes. But again, I feel like we've said this on every single point in this, what works for you is different for everyone. I'm like, there's no one size fits all, even in any conference. Yep.

No, I do that too with a bunch of different groups I'm in is that I'll go in and I'll reteach something that was like the most, I thought was the biggest aha from the event and I'll reiterate and reiterate and reiterate and it's helping them and it's helping me make sure that that thing that I learned is like embedded in my psyche is this is something we do now.

Following people who've been there on social media, or if there's a Facebook group or something for the event, and seeing what other people post and being like, oh, that's what they took away. I never even noticed that was a point in the person made. Or just sometimes like redrawing things, or like they'll put in a quote. It's like, I can't remember quotes. It was just when I did my English, When we did English exam at school, you used to have to like learn a few different books or plays or whatever you're talking about, and you had to memorize the quotes you were going to use even though you didn't know what the question was going to be in the exam. I hated it. I never remembered all the quotes. It was horrible. Same at university when I had to learn— you had to learn legal cases. Who was it versus who? And what happened in the case. And like, then I had like all the little index cards and try to remember it. And it's like, like, I just don't have that kind of memory where you can just recite stuff. It's that I couldn't remember it then. If you ask me now, I can probably tell you what the cases were because I don't know, I have like the better long-term memory stuff. Like, if you want to know about Chemical Plumbers v. Smith and about whether someone's an employee or not. I can tell you now, but I probably forgot it during the exam.

All right. Do you want to do a rapid fire round, Andrew, and close us out?

In this bumper hour long episode.

Let's do it. All right. So worst food you've ever eaten at a conference. I feel like you already answered that.

Yeah, I've been quite lucky. I like eat, I know I won't eat and throw it away, or I take my odds. I don't think I've had a bad food experience.

When I was at the Funnel Hacking Lives, Russell would always the first day order in dinner for everyone, except it was always some variation of Chinese food. And I am not a big Chinese food person, so it was always like, Eh. But there was no time, like you literally got online for the food because we were going into workshop sessions, so you had no time to do anything else. And the workshop sessions were amazing, but the food was bleh. And one time there was like these quinoa ancient grain kind of things, we're like, what is this in the dish? So that was the worst food.

I do like Chinese food, doesn't sound— but I do remember the worst food I've eaten is, it was at Adventure Market and I didn't get a chance to speak to them properly at the time. So we spoke over lunch and by the time we finished speaking, all of the soup was gone and there was no food. So I had to run back to my room and eat like 2 pieces of shortbread. That is probably the worst food I ever had to eat at conference. That was my lunch.

Okay. All right, next one. Weirdest speaker moment you've witnessed.

Weird.

I'm trying to think, was there a weird speaker I got 2 if you need a minute to think.

Yeah, let me think.

Okay. One, I was at an AI Bot Summit. Actually, I think this one I attended virtually and Chris, whatever his name was, the internet kind of went down or it was not strong enough to do his slides. And he had a total screaming rant on stage about how great his presentation was going to be and how dare the Wi-Fi not work and everything else. That was horrible. And that was weird. And then when I was at AI Bot Summit this past January, there was an Australian copywriter speaker And I don't know if she was hungover from the party the night before or what, but she could not make a single point in the entire 40— like, the— Perry went up on stage and tried asking her questions and like doing a Q&A kind of thing, and she still could not get a coherent point across. I left that session angry. Like, I had to rage walk through that— that hotel was attached to a mall, so I like rage walked through the mall on the 20 minutes it was going to be before our next session. I was so mad.

Yeah, I think for me it was going to an event and seeing people afterwards. One of the speakers was very, very drunk and oh my God, they were so annoying. Like, would not leave me. I had to escape.

They kind of attached themselves to you while they were drunk.

Yeah. I was like, okay, they've had enough of And so have I. Let's go back. Let's go to bed.

All right. One thing you will never forget to pack again.

Chargers. Like, not being able to charge your phone and stuff and remembering to charge the battery pack. I took a battery pack, needed it because my phone's battery is like gone. I'm thinking of a reply to the phone. Um, yeah, and I didn't— like, it wouldn't charge because it— and I thought, there's plenty of charge in this, I need to charge up. I did. So I ended up— a bunch of people went for ice cream and I had to miss it because I had to go back to my room to charge up my phone because I was like, I need it for the night, I need it to get around. Like, it's everywhere in the UK is cashless nowadays, so it's like, it's my way of paying for stuff. Sometimes you need QR codes to do stuff. I'm like, okay, I have to have the phone. So I missed out on ice cream because I didn't charge stuff. So I'll never forget chargers, battery packs, and if your phone is bad, replace it or get a battery replacement or something before you go.

Mine is socks. I went to an event one time and I thought I had a bunch, but I ended up only having the pair of socks on my feet and we couldn't, like, there was no place to go to get socks. I ended up wearing the same pair of socks for like 3 days. It was so bad. I'm trying to like rinse them out at night in the sink, everything. It was so bad.

It was wintertime. Yeah, I'm really bad for it. I'll pack like far too many, like plenty of spares. And this year I was like, you know what, I'm just going to pack the right amount. That was a dumb decision. I had like, I had one toe where it was like rubbing on my shoe. I ended up buying—

oh no—

and it was like annoying, so I put a plaster on it and thought that's fine and it wouldn't annoy me so much. Took the plaster off, it ended up ripping skin off with it, and the socks that were the next day— they were white socks at the start, they were red socks at the end of it. Oh, and I was like, I was finding it was like, where is the after I can't remember what it was. There was some sort of thing I was going to and I was like, I want to change these, but like, I only brought the right amount of pairs and I have to wear one pair for 2 days if I do this. Like, why did I not bring one? Like, I had one spare, it'd have been okay. So they're just like, had a plaster and stuff. Oh yeah, that was annoying.

Yeah, definitely on that. I usually, if I can, I do a theme park day after a conference. A lot of the ones that I attend are like in Florida and whatnot, or they're in Vegas. So I'll usually plan a play day for after the conference. And that way, like, what better way to like talk it out with friends from the conference and whatnot, what we learned, what we want to do, than while waiting online for adrenaline-pumping rides. So I always, I try extra, extra things. All right, secret hacks, where to sit, what to skip, how to sneak snacks in, like any kind of secret hacks for you, Andrew George George.

Sneak snacks, put them in your bag and eat them.

I don't give a fuck. Yeah, that part's easy. I don't know why that's in the list.

Where to sit? It depends. If you think there's a chance you might not like it, sit on the ends. You don't have to ask everyone to move. I've had to do that before. Don't sit at the front for most things, like Atomic Con. The stage is quite high off the ground and it's like, it's not, it's uncomfortable to sit in the front. It's like a few rows back in the middle if you want to see people the best. If you think you might want to make an early exit, sit on the end.

I am usually within the first 4 rows and I try to sit on a middle side. So like not all the way on the end, like the middle. Of the end because most of those things I'm at have the big, um, projection screens. So if you're in the first 4 rows, you can still see the speaker really, really well and hopefully less chance of them making direct eye contact with you where it gets weird. Um, but this way I have a great view of the side screens where if they're doing slides, presentations, I can get really good pictures.

Yeah, and one thing I learned from Merchandising Market, it's a really cool venue. But the stage is like in a section, like there's walls at the side, it's like in. So one of the tables, like the table was at the side and you couldn't see the slides, and like there was QR code and stuff, and one of us from the table had to go up, photograph it, let everyone else take like scan the QR code, like that. So be careful, but I was at a table with the best people, so I also wouldn't have moved There you go.

Another thing, if you're at a high-energy conference where people are fighting for seats— it does happen, people fight for seats— um, if you are the sprinter going for the seats and you have a group of people— I'm usually the designated sprinter— uh, bring a bag, jackets, whatever, and lay them across the seats. Because if you just go and stand in front of the seats, someone will slide in behind you and sit their butt down. So I kept that clean, Andrew George. Um, be proud of me. But bring a jacket, bring backpack, something to put over all the seats you need. Like I would at Funnel Hacking, I was the sprinter for the seats and be like, how many do we need? 9? We need 9 seats? Wait, you want me to get 9? So I'd have like jacket, bag, backpack, and then I would be standing, you can't see it here, like spread eagle across the next 4 holding it. And I'd be like waving for the next round of people who were gonna be the first from my group to come in. It was the funniest, most fun, crazy part. Most things are not that insane.

Yeah.

I like it. And then once the rest of the people got there, I would just stay standing on the chair and dancing.

Yeah. I've been lucky at my events. It's more like you go in, find a seat, um, like a Tonkon stuff. I'm normally with people and we all just find seats there. Mentioned the market and I was there kind of on my own with new people. I just found a table. People came along, ended up being really good people that I knew. And there was one person who's like, oh, my friend's running late, can we save that seat? I was like, yes, that's okay. There is no, there's no fighting. So definitely different vibe.

Yes, very different vibe. All right, so hopefully you enjoyed, if you're still here, our rant, our ramble on conferences here. You can tell that we both absolutely love them. And we're excited to know what kind of conferences you are thinking of attending, you are attending, you did in the past, if you like them or not. Like, that's always really cool. Definitely, like, drop comments below with that kind of stuff. Join our Facebook group, any of those things. Andrew, where are you headed to next conference-wise?

Next, I'm kind of not fully decided. I'm thinking of going to an e-commerce one in London, but it's like, very professional kind of people, very different vibe. I don't think I'd meet a ton of people. Like, I think it's going to be a different— so I might go to that just to see what that's like. But if I don't go there, the next one will be the festival where I am a speaker, which will be a whole different—

that's so awesome. We have a whole different follow-up podcast to that.

Yeah, that will be a whole different vibe to what I'm used to. Excellent. I don't think anyone I know is going, so we'll see how it goes.

Gotta tell your freelance group that you're gonna be speaking.

If you do know me and do want to come, I do have an affiliate link. Oh, and you can also watch it virtually.

So there you go.

I was gonna say, even if you're not—

we'll be talking a lot about that as it gets closer and closer.

Where are you headed, Lawson?

In September, I am, fingers crossed, going to Growth Hacking Live. That is just such a tongue twister after I did Funnel Hacking Live so many times. But we'll be doing Growth Hacking Live in San Diego. And I'm even more excited that post that, we'll probably be going to spend a day or two in Disneyland. Because we're like under 2 hours away. So September will be the next conference for me.

Awesome. So thanks again everyone for coming. If you, well, I don't know how to connect it to the green button.

If you need money to go to a conference, the best way to do it is to run a flash sale.

And the best way to run a flash sale is with our Flash Sale in a Snap guide that you can grab by going to the Product Growth Lab www.productgrowthlab.com/flush.

Flush. All right, so thanks for tuning into the Product Growth Lab podcast. We hope you found today's episode insightful, inspiring, and entertaining. If you enjoyed the show, leave a review. It helps us reach more creative entrepreneurs just like you. Stay connected and keep experimenting. Follow us on your favorite podcast platform, and don't forget to join our community for more resources, tips, and support. Until next time, keep growing and creating. This is the Product Growth Lab signing off.