How Taxwire Is Revolutionizing Global Sales Tax with Andrew Rea | Fintech Frontiers Ep 02

Welcome back to FinTech Frontiers, the podcast where we talk to the people building the future of financial technology. Today, we're excited to have Andrew Rea, co-founder and CEO of Taxwire, with us. Taxwire helps fast-growing companies take the pain out of sales tax, saving time, money, and a lot of headaches for finance teams at companies like Pulli, Rev, Italic, and more. Andrew's no stranger to fast-moving startups. He led growth at Capital, former party round, was on the early team at OnDeck, and helped fix tough finance and ops problems at Ordu. He's also been an investor, a founder, and someone who's learned by doing at every step. Andrew, it's great to have you here on the show. Welcome to FinTech Frontiers.

Thank you for having me, sir. It's great to do this, and I appreciate the kind intro. I'll try to live up to it.

Well earned, well earned, Andrew. Look, I think it'd be great to start the conversation by really asking you what is the big problem that you have spotted in the market and decided to go after and solve?

Yeah, great question. I'll kind of, let me see here. I will do a quick, quick, quick background on myself because that kind of ties out into how the heck I got into this and then we'll talk about the market. But so my career largely before this is I've spent my entire career doing either investing in startups or working at startups. The most recent company I was at was a company called Capital, and we built banking and payroll software and things of that nature for startups and small businesses. That company got acquired by another financial services company called Ro in New York City.

Yay.

This is probably spring of 2023. So we got, we got acquired. I was newly unemployed. I did not go to the acquiring company and was thinking about what I would do next. And I went to this company called Ordo that you mentioned in the introduction. And this company is a very fast-growing food marketplace. They recently raised raised a pretty large, large round from XYZ and Excel to replace like an on-premise kitchen with their own locally sourced food from, from like restaurants, caterers, etc., in a local community. And so it's fresh food for schools, kind of replacing the old school Sodexo of the world, or just like a lunch lady with like a more modern experience for K-12 school lunch here in the States. And I'm sure they'll be going global in the near future. And so I went there for a few months, just I was like acting head of finance just to help my friend out. I'm a small investor in the company, and we had a huge issue with sales tax compliance. So for For people that are not aware, sales tax is— so there's VAT if you're international, and then there's sales tax here in the United States. And sales tax, unlike VAT, is largely on a state and locality basis here in the United States. So we don't have— there's no country-level tax rate that's being applied. It's all regulated at like a state, city, and locality level. So you have New York State, they have their own tax rate, they have their own tax laws. The city of New York City has its own rates and laws, different like municipalities and special districts. In some states, you have literally like completely different rulings between what a locality is charging taxes on and what the actual state is doing. So it's essentially a bunch of mini, mini countries within the United States itself, and then many, many localities, different rules, different rates, different laws. It's quite complicated if you're selling across all those different places, trying to figure out how you deal with this. And so I didn't know any of this though coming in. I just, I knew a little bit because in the payroll space you deal with this on withholding taxes. So we, to make a long story short, we had gone from no revenue, no, no anything, to operating in 20-something different states, hundreds of schools around the country, and selling food and trying to figure out how we collect, how we collect and charge sales tax when all of these rules and rates are different. And also the, our billing model was complicated, how we, how we actually like the different rules around like, well, is this taxable if it's a nonprofit school versus a for-profit school? And is this, if this piece of food, if we have, if we sell 4 different types of food that taxed differently. Well, how do we apply tax to that? And then we have to actually like collect, register, and file and remit these tax returns every month in all of these different jurisdictions. And it quickly stacks up on you. And for this business, when I walked in, these were like several young founders that had gone from nothing to a substantial, fast-growing business. And what you'll see if you talk to a lot of companies, whether it's in the software industry, in AI, in e-commerce, just anywhere where you grow very quickly, you can potentially be— have sales and revenue and operations and tax exposure across multiple states and/or countries very, very quickly. Exactly. And you see this in our company.

And that's becoming a headache.

Exactly, exactly. And so to kind of answer your question about like how the world got this way, before the internet, this was not something that companies really, besides the largest enterprises, really dealt with. And so it wasn't really a problem. The internet happened. And so what was going on for really 20-something years is that companies like Amazon, most famously, e-commerce sellers, software companies, they were not collecting taxes on their revenue unless they had a physical presence in the state. And so if I have a warehouse or an office, sure, I might collect collect sales tax in my home state, but I'm not dealing with any of this across all the other different states and countries. And what has happened over the last 5 to 10 years or so in different— in the United States as well as around the world is governments have realized they're missing out on a lot of revenue because of that. So the tax laws have changed to where now in the United States, we had a pretty big ruling back in 2018 where now all of the states require you to collect sales tax even if you don't have a physical presence in that jurisdiction. On top of that, internationally, you have other countries that have done the same thing. And so every, every month now, a new country is like telling someone who's never been to this jurisdiction that because you have sales there, you need to figure out how to correctly register, collect, and file and remit these taxes to governments around the world.

Right. And that sounds fair because if the income is being generated from the citizens in that place, but the tax on that has been paid somewhere else, then there is, there certainly is an argument for those jurisdictions. And that, that's been recognized as a kind of generally accepted principle now that you can, you can tax where the sale takes place.

Exactly. Exactly. That is, that is correct. So largely the regulation has settled out to where this is, this is just the way the world is going to operate. And from a, from a governmental perspective, it is governments do have to, it's unfair for companies that are operating locally that are collecting these things to not enforce that on someone selling via the internet into that jurisdiction. It's, it's a fairness issue. It's also that governments need these funds to fund operations. Something you see in the United States is that a lot of, a lot of, a lot of governments here are struggling from like a revenue perspective. And so raising income tax rates or property tax rates tends to cause problems for politicians because their voting base is not going to be happy about that. Where sales tax or VAT internationally, it's these, these indirect taxes are felt less directly. And so therefore it's easier to raise tax rates and not have it make people as upset as it is because it's consumption-based.

It's not for other types of tax on your tax deductions or on your tax returns. And I think it spreads the base a bit wider as well. So you can get a more balanced model, indirect and direct taxes. Yeah. So that makes sense.

Yeah. So that's kind of, that's, it's, it's, it's understandable why governments want to do this and this is happening. There's a big thing happening now in Europe called ICE. I think it's bridging the VAT gap of trying to bridge both non-compliance and eliminate fraud. So this is a very active thing for governments, both in the United States and abroad. And so to kind of fast forward and bring that to like how I dealt with this, I dealt with this from the perspective of being at this company and having, knowing other friends who dealt with this. Yes. Where you're just scaling and you're as a business operator, a finance, a CFO, a controller, like an accounting firm trying to help your clients, an entrepreneur, you're just trying to do the right thing and run your business. And it's, it's these, this can just stack up on you really quickly. And so what I discovered both at this company and at a lot of other companies I would talk to is that people, it was, there were several products in the market for this. There were many consulting firms you could pay to help you get compliant, to clean up past noncompliance, to help you automate this. But generally, the software products that were out there and their names you would all know, like the Avalares of the world, the Vertexes, there were products that existed that were quite big, but many of them either didn't handle— they were very difficult to actually use, to onboard, to implement. They were very expensive. Like, because it was so difficult to implement these things, a lot of people would just kick the can down the road even longer. And so I just, I spent I never expected to, but I spent months and months and months on the phone with small companies, large companies, from like the tiniest businesses to the biggest enterprises in the world, accounting firms, accountants, CFOs, just trying to understand like how they dealt with this and what they did. And if they, if they were using a service provider or solution, like what their experience had been. And essentially like the viewpoint we ultimately came to, um, it was kind of the genesis of Tax Buyer was that this was a problem that had really grown in complexity and was no longer just a US problem, but also a global problem because companies are now selling, selling across across the world, and I think that will continue. Two, people expect their implementations to not be difficult. Like, you need to make it easy to comply, and part of making it easy to comply is making it easy for— to actually use a product or service to actually get compliant in the first place. You need to be very easy to set up, or else, like, people are going to— they're going to wait a lot longer to actually get compliant. And then you need to handle this problem globally. You need to be accurate. You need to be something that people can trust, because ultimately you are solving taxes and managing a piece of potential risk for a business. Because if I'm a CFO and I'm buying a tax product, I'm relying that that thing is going to be accurate or else I could potentially be out of material amounts of funding. So that was kind of the belief that we had, that clearly the existing solutions had gaps. This was only going to grow in complexity. The solution needed to be global and we kind of had, I guess, enough hubris to think that we could go tackle it as being young founders, as my co-founder and I were. And so we got started in late 2023. We raised, at this point we've raised about $4 million and we recruited in several folks from our industry that have been around for a long time. So our head of tax built a company called TaxJar where they were like an early player in this place that Stripe acquired. He worked at, worked at Stripe, and Stripe has a, has a product that's in the global sales tax space. Some folks on our team have been at some companies like, like the big incumbents, like Avalara, Finoa, etc. So we took the lens of—

You've got a pedigree, a high pedigree team is what you're telling me.

The pedigree is useful, but it's more of this is a complex problem. And if you want to build the right product, you can spend a ton of time making a ton of mistakes that are going to potentially hurt your customers or hurt you as a business, or you can hire the people that have been there, done that, do it right, build the right product and just do the thing correctly. And so that, that was the approach that we have, we've taken and knock on wood, it's going well so far.

Yeah. Well, absolutely. So would you say that you're kind of the second generation of these, these kinds of sales tax, uh, compliance solutions and that you're like, from what you're saying to me, that you've got a solution that's very well geared to rapidly scaling startups. Is that, is, is that correct?

Based on your experience in the margin? Yeah. I'd say, I'd say, um, yeah. So I'll, I'll break it. There's like two questions in there. So there's the historically speaking there, I'd say there was wave one was actually pre the internet. There was Vertex, Thomson Reuters, Wolters Kluwer.

Yes.

All of these like incumbent companies. And they were actually, they were actually the first generation and they were the first to build software for this. Because before this was like a pen and paper problem. And so these companies built like on-prem bolt-ons to like SAP, Oracle, like these really old, old systems. And these are still big companies. These are multibillion-dollar companies that like are very big in Fortune 500. And then kind of as the internet rose, you had Avalara, TaxJar, Taxamo, who I know you know as well, and a couple other companies. And I'd say those, those companies took different angles, focused on different parts of the market. But that was wave 2, I would say. I think we're now in wave 3. And Wave 3 is kind of kicked off over, I'd say, like the last couple of years. And I think that looks like people now attacking this problem in a way that's like global for the first time, which I think companies like us are doing in a much more modern, easy to implement way. And then I think generative AI and large language models and the things that you can do with that is becoming a big component of a lot of these solutions. And we can talk more about that if you're interested. But I would say where we fit into that is we focus very heavily on accounting firms and then fast growing, like medium-sized startups, e-com, like e-commerce brands. Um, we have construction company customers, like, like any company, it could be a startup, it could not be, but any company that is selling globally and growing very quickly is, uh, is like one set of customer. And we focus on like being the best partner that a controller or VP of finance, whatever has ever had for trying to get compliant in the first place. And then, and then we work with a lot of accounting firms to help them solve this for their, for their, their SMB customers. Yeah. So, uh, would you, you'd say you're a B2B, basically a SaaS, uh, B2B, B2B SaaS is probably the most, most, uh, whether that's either a compliment or an insult depending on who you talk to, but yeah, like largely B2B software provider.

I love, love SaaS B2B, particularly when it's fintech.

Me too. Me too. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, and, uh, now like, are your, so I know, so the accountants, they're a channel that they, they can, they can, they can use your platform and help provide compliance to their clients. And then you're going directly to the market. Does it make any difference? If, you know, if the company is selling physical goods or if it's selling services, is that, is that a material factor?

Um, it, it's, uh, it's a great question. It is a little bit for right now on the international side, but like largely, so largely we do both. Um, today we, it's, I'd say it would be different from the customer's perspective of like the, of like what they're thinking about from a tax perspective is physical and digital products are taxed differently in many jurisdictions. And so the tax implications to our customer is different, but from our perspective, we can work with either. We have customers that sell hardware products, food, CPG, the things of that nature. We have customers that are selling like tech, like, uh, like software as a service, digital products, digital services. We can, we can work with both.

Okay, cool. And one of the things, well, that's great. You're versatile, you're global. If it's, if it's a digital or product, that's okay with you. One of, one of the things that kind of we learned at Keeper Solutions from, from being a tech partner with Taxamo, which kind of grew up on VAT on B2B digital products in the European Union, which had a very complex VAT, MOSS kind of thing. And they were able to get all of the complexity of that system and the different rates into their product and make it easy to consume. And it was about bringing complexity to simplicity and reducing friction for companies that were scaling, particularly on the finance and operations side. But one of the challenges there, I wonder whether, whether this is something that you've had to solve for as well is what is the proof of the location of the buyer? Because that's relevant. And you've said it could, could be sales tax could be set at a state level, at a county level or a district level, or, you know, you have to, yeah. Do you have to prove where they're, where they're located and how do you, yeah.

So this becomes totally, this is a great question. And only something someone who's been in this space has some experience in the industry could, could ask or dealt with the problem. The, so this is a little bit different in the US versus internationally. So I'll tackle the US first and then I'll talk about outside of the States. In the United States, it's the really hard thing is the jurisdictional complexity that we have here. And so there's, um, we have, you have the state, you have the city, you have the county, but you also have special districts. Like Alabama has police districts that are, have very tiny regions. I could even, I could even show you, show you like, uh, like polygons of like how tiny these jurisdictions can be, but they, they have special rules and special tax rates that can exist in these regions.

And it'd be up to the state boundaries and there's funny stuff going on there.

There's funny stuff there. It's yes. And so it's a, it's a difficult problem because just having a zip code is not, is not enough. You really need to know the exact most precise place that that customer is for where you're sourcing the transaction to. And so that is difficult because even if you have all the zip code rates and you try to apply tax rates across those, in many of these states where it's more complex, you're going to get incorrect tax rates when you, when you try to charge sales tax on that transaction. And that's maybe, maybe you don't like that. It's fine until you get caught for that, or until your customer flags to you that like, hey, this tax rate is not correct. And so as you, as your company grows in complexity and you eventually get audited or this, this comes up in some other context, that's when it becomes a problem. And so the—

if you've overpaid or you've underpaid, both are a problem.

Both are a problem. And so, and what we have done and is, is something that's quite hard to do and many, many of the players in this market still, still do not do is that we have, we have gone painstakingly and drawn polygons for every single jurisdiction in the United States of America. So in our tax engine, as it's called, we can source exactly whether or not someone's— it's called rooftop accurate, but whether someone is on one side of the street versus the other, we are actually geocoding that precise point on a map and showing like, this is where the customer is, this is where the transaction is, these are the overlapping jurisdictions, these are the rules that overlap with that. And like the customer, our customers don't see any of this, but this is like all of what's going into actually calculating the tax rate on that. And then what that gives you is you can take that and if God forbid, hopefully not, but someday our customer is ever audited, we're, we're actually building in like features to, we can send a report to the state auditor that tracks every single transaction, explains it, and basically gives you a bulletproof solution that is like very, very hard to, um, to attack from an, from an auditor perspective because you've done everything correctly and you have the trail and you know why it was calculated that way. So that's the—

that takes it to another level, doesn't it? Because in the earlier model, you could say, well, it's a fair cop, gov, but I really genuinely thought that this was the rate. Whereas in this one, you know that you're on the right rate and you can prove it. From the product point of view though, it does sound like a— you've got a huge geospatial engineering challenge. Did you build that on top of something?

We did. We did. But the— we, we, you on the geocoding side, we use like, you knew of all the providers, there's Google Google Maps, there's, uh, I forget the name of this company, but geospatial something or other. There's several providers. We work with like the best of the best on actually doing the geocoding. That's not something we built ourselves. The thing that's hard is getting the actual boundaries correct for the tax jurisdictions. And that you have to go, like in some cases you're literally calling up a state to ask them to send you a PDF of whatever it is they have. But we have essentially done the work to get whatever data they have and then to do our, draw our own polygons. And so we have geospatial engineering resources on our team. Actually is the one that masterminded this. He's literally done this attempt to do this before. And so he is probably one of the foremost experts in the world in how to do this. And so I can't take any credit for that, but he, he did all of this, he manages this, and kind of we, we now have a team that oversees it. Uh, but it, but it is a non piece is hard, but it's a non, non-trivial engineering challenge. Yeah.

And in the process, it seems that you've created a kind of a moat of that, that in its own right seems like a kind of moat around your, your business model?

I would probably tell an investor that there's a potential moat there, but I would say I actually don't really believe in moats. I would say, and maybe I shouldn't say this, but I believe that on a long enough timescale, especially in software—

Oh, do please, say it.

Yeah, I believe that on a long enough timescale, anyone can build anything. And so other companies can and will build this. The only real— it is harder to build, it is a barrier, but anyone can build it. I believe the only moat you have in software, at least on a long enough timescale, is potentially something around distribution. But even that can potentially be attacked. So all you really have as an entrepreneur is relentless focus on servicing your customer better than anybody else and building the thing that does that. And then, and then you obviously do your best to out-distribute that versus other people. But, but even like Bill.com, for example, a company I admire a lot, a lot, um, built a great product that is still very heavily distributed across accounting firms. They are now facing very stiff competition from a company called Ramp because Ramp, many people believe, product is better now. And so they have, they have what you would think is unassailable distribution, but Ramp services the customer better. So eventually, if you don't out-service the customer better than somebody else, you're going to be vulnerable to competition.

Great. Good insight there. So the only moat is relentless innovation and focus on, on, on your serving your customer.

Yeah. In my opinion, in my opinion. Yeah. Makes sense.

Keeps you moving. Okay. And maybe we could, maybe we could talk then about your business model. Could you give me some insights into how you're generating value for your shareholders.

Doing our best. So no, we, we right now, and you're a seed stage company, pricing is always a thing you're working on, but we, current pricing model is that we charge software fees on a per jurisdiction basis. And so it's, it's roughly a SaaS fee, but if you're in, I don't know, a dozen states and maybe 5 countries, we would charge a single fee per state or per country per month. And so it roughly scales to that amount of volume. For certain direct-to-consumer businesses where they have a high amount of transaction volume, we potentially in some cases have a slightly different model for that. That makes sense given that we're doing a large volume of calculations for them. But for, for simpler customers, we just try to keep it very tied to just amount of states, amount of countries, and one set price that they're going to pay on. And so it's, it's very clear, it's very easy to understand. If you're a CFO, you can model out exactly what you're going to pay. We stay away from anything percentage-based or take rate-based because generally I think that, um, I think the that it is dis— I think it is misaligned with what the customer wants. They don't like that. They generally don't like some yet, yet another person trying to take money from them every single time there's a transaction. It's also hard to model if you're a finance or accounting person. Um, it's, it feels less transparent. So we've generally just stayed away from that.

Are you talking, you're talking about number of seats and then number of states or number of countries internationally?

Number of no seats, just number of states and countries. So if you're in, if we're registering, filing, collecting, and remitting taxes for you in, uh, 10, 10 countries or 10 states. So we would apply a single rate per each of those countries and states, and that's how our pricing works.

So how do you differentiate then between the customer that's selling a million and a billion across 10 states?

That's why I, uh, asterisked, as for a lot of companies, the volume of transactions is relatively small to where it doesn't come up. If we deal with a large direct-to-consumer company where they are doing like tens or call it millions of transactions. But we introduced a separate piece of pricing that scales roughly with the amount of like, if they're calling our API with like 10 million transactions a month, we would introduce like an add-on price that just scales with that volume. So it's, it's, it's, it's a little more trans— it's still SaaS pricing, but it's just tied to an amount of API calls.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're, you're, you're capturing value, but you're not inserting a an additional kind of penny on the sales price, um, that keeps the— your, your, your customers happy. They don't feel, okay, this is either eating away at my margin or pushing my price up. It's not doing that.

Exactly. Exactly. I don't, I don't, don't wanna be— I think if you're in that space, you're very— it just, it just misaligned with what I know our customers want, and I have a hard time introducing a pricing model that creates friction with how they run their business. Yep.

Yeah. And I suppose that brings me to, so would you like, would you have any advice for founders as to how they can, you know, understand, you know, how the customer buys? Is that an important, something important or?

I think it was for me. I don't, maybe this is easier for other people, but I think something, if you're in the idea maze, call it, or you're trying to understand to make sure, like the number one job in the early days is to build something people want, to build something that gets to product market fit and to build something that works. And so you're very focused on, am I building the right thing? Am I building the right features? Will this solve the problem? Will people pay me for this, et cetera? And you should be, but also you should be trying to understand how, how someone thinks about your solution, how they buy your product, competitive products, products in other, other parts of their, their, their tool stack. Um, so if you're selling to an accounting firm or if you're selling to like a CFO, a controller, you want to understand like what else is in their stack? How did they discover that? If they decide they need to buy something, how are they made aware of it? Do they text a friend? Are they in a community? That they like ask people for advice? Do they care about who else uses you? Do they like, how many vendors are they going to talk to if they run a process? Where do they consume content? Like there's all of these things you can try to understand and eventually that builds you a mental model of what your customer is, how they see the world, how they're going to buy things, what influences them, who influences them. And that allows you to understand how you can build distribution as a business. And so you under— okay, I know that like this channel channel, that this is a potential channel partner for me because this is just an example. But let's say, let's say you're building an ERP. Well, I know that like whatever firm is doing like the, like whatever CPA firm this company is using to do like taxes and audits, that, that they have a large amount of influence on my, on who's going to get implemented to do like some kind of like ERP implementation or something like that. You can figure out like, oh, this is a channel partnership that if I go build a relationship here, we could potentially have very scalable distribution. And so there's different signals for different businesses, but understanding that is very crucial in my opinion to not only servicing your customer well, but making sure you understand how you're going to scale out the go-to-market side of your business.

Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, what would— could you maybe tell me, so like, how have you, how have you managed all this relentless innovation? How do you go about innovation to, to create such a complex and scalable product? Product?

Hard question. I think you just show up and do the work and you try to prioritize your resources as much as you can. I don't have an overly insane answer beyond—

Product roadmap, I suppose.

We have a product roadmap that we are, my co-founder, myself, my co-founder is our CTO, our head of tax, and myself are kind of like the managers of, I guess you could say. But we are constantly, we have a channel in our Slack where anytime we see something that is a pain point for a customer, that is a thing we discovered is like a blocker in a sales call. Just an insight that we feel like someone learned is like, oh, I understand why this really matters. We are constantly adding things there. And so I'd say it's like we're just constantly, constantly you're looking for like, how do we make this better? How do we— like yesterday, as an example, I found something I did not like about our onboarding process. And I literally got like my entire onboarding team on the phone and was like, hey, so like this, this, this, and this, and this is bad. From now on, we're going to do this, this, and this. And we have to— and this is why, and we have to make it better. You just, you're just, it's really like staying focused on like trying to see the world through your customer's eyes, trying to understand where there's friction and then just like keeping, keeping that like you want. And then ideally you're shipping quickly. We try, we ship things daily, weekly. We, we probably have like a big release that happens every week and then we try to ship small things daily if we can.

Continuous.

And then, and then we, and then I'd say on the bigger picture stuff, we have a long-term roadmap of all of the, of the bigger projects, call it, that you would need to, like, for example, we, we are in the middle of rolling out expanded coverage for international taxes. And so that, that was like a, a thing we knew we'd do at some point, but there was a moment where we decided, okay, this is something we're going to prioritize. And then we kind of said, all right, we're going to say no to some of these other things, and we're going to just focus really well on doing this, this specific part of our roadmap for the next 3 months.

Well, it sounds like you've got it well organized. I mean, you've got yourself into the market, you found your product market fit, you're getting lots of traction in the market, and And you're, you seem to be driving forward at a great pace. So, so it seems to be working whatever way you're organizing yourselves there.

It's always, it's always, even when it's working, there's a million things that feel broken under the hood. So I would say we are no different there and think things are going, going well. I'm grateful for that. But we, I would, I would still say, and I say to our team, we have, we have much work to do.

Oh, for sure. Tell me, what does the next 12, 24 months look like for TaxBit?

Yeah, I think, well, we, we've rolled out a fairly large US sales tax compliance engine instead of managed services for doing end-to-end US sales tax. That's been like our bread and butter over the last 6 months. Um, we, and then we're in the middle of, we've started rolling out international taxes for VAT and GST in Europe, Canada, UK, Nordic countries, et cetera, many of them like major, major regions. Um, and so that's really a big thing for us over the next few months. And then if I were to zoom out 12 to 24 months from now, we are trying to make a heavy push on, on 2 areas. We're trying to We're trying to expand, we're trying to truly expand just like the pure global coverage that we have. And then the second thing is we're trying to push into, into additional industries. So I think we're going to start covering telecom taxes. We're going to start covering a lot of just different new, uh, like ecosystems that we don't cover, like ERPs, NetSuite, your Sage Intacct, some of the more new modern like billing and ERP players that are in the market. So it's, it's a, it's a lot of just like adding new industries, new jurisdictions, and new integrations that service customers that we, we've had to say no to so far. And so I'd say it's like, it's just like, it's just continuing, like the endgame for us is global product, any jurisdiction. Jurisdiction you sell into in the world, any product, any tax behavior, and any integration in any, any system that you need. And it's just, it's going to be a many-year march of being the best product and best service in the market for that.

Brilliant. I think you've got a great shot at this.

It's a good start. We have a lot of work to, a lot of work to do. It's like anything, uh, the race to be, uh, to be the, the modern player in global indirect tax compliance will be a competitive one. We have an excellent team. We have customers that, uh, we've had no churn today. We have customers that love us. Um, and so if we, I think if we keep, keep executing, hopefully be in a good place.

Well, Andrew, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the pod here today. It's fascinating. It's great to see what you're doing, and I hope that it's inspiring for our listeners to hear how you're going about your business as well. Thank you.

Thank you for having me, sir, and it was great chatting. And always happy to be helpful if any folks want to reach out. I'm pretty reachable on the internet.

Yeah, tell me, where can they get hold W?

I'm, I'm at andrew@taxwire.com if you'd like to email me. And then LinkedIn, Twitter, any, any of those places, feel free to just shoot me a request or a DM. I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty easy to access.

Great name for the company. And taxwire.com on your website as well. Brilliant.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right. We'll put them in the show notes as well. Thank you.

Thank you, sir. Thank you for having me. This was fun.