Why Leaving Money on The Table? Pricing Every AI Agent Company Should Know | Jenée Hall, Former CRO

With Monograph, I think before I got there, they were charging maybe like $29 or $49, and they literally found they could triple it. But they did that through testing.

I just went to charge a PT and ask how much should I charge. Let's start with that number. Hopefully, I'm not the only one.

A lot of people do address it as a finance problem or like an accounting problem. If your listeners think of one thing, it is meant to be an evolution. It's never meant to be like we. We priced it this way and that's been working for us.

Everyone tells me I need a free tier for adoption. Without one, no one will try me. This is a common one. What do you think? True or false?

There are also times when people will not go for a free version at all because they think it's not worth it. Like it's not quality. If something's for free, well then it must be pretty bad. If they're not paying anything, then they kind of like, they don't expect anything from it or they expect it to tie their shoes and make their toast for them as well. They don't want the freemiums that are just the tire kickers. Would you pay for that? Yes, you would.

Okay.

Would you pay Yeah, I'd pay $200. Would you pay $250? Uh, $250 feels a little bit too high.

So you're saying price before the product?

If there is no value, they would never pay anything for it, then it may be either table stakes or it's really not worth developing. Buying anything is an emotional experience. Humans are still here because we are human and we have these emotions. That's something that no matter how much AI you have, we're still the ones buying the things. You still have to appeal to the humans.

Today I have Janae Janet Hall. Janet has led sales and pricing for SaaS companies across various industries, including health tech, architecture, and agriculture. And now she's running Janet Hall Consulting, where founders keep bringing her the same thing over and over, including myself, Janet. You know, we think we're probably leaving some money on the table. And today she will teach us why almost every technical founder is probably right about that. And what to actually do about it. Welcome, Junae.

Hi, Angelina. Hi, everyone. Nice to be invited.

Can you share a version of you that isn't something AI can search or I can find on LinkedIn?

Oh, interesting. Yeah, I mean, so I have— I mean, we're all very diverse people, right, with diverse interests. So I am an AYSO referee. So I referee soccer tournaments, youth soccer tournaments, but I can do Everything from 8U all the way up to like, you know, high school. So I really am passionate about soccer. My daughter's in soccer, but that's something that not a lot of people know about me. And I know all of the soccer rules. So yeah, it's a little version of myself that you wouldn't ever see, but I do wear— I have like a badge, I have the yellow card and the red card. So the World Cup has been a big thing for me. I've been very interested in the VAR especially. So yeah, that's something you wouldn't necessarily find. Anywhere else.

That is so interesting. Do you play soccer yourself growing up?

I didn't. So that's really crazy. I didn't. I think my parents weren't really into— they really weren't into any sports, like getting me into sports. I did dance, I did all kinds of things, but it wasn't until I had my daughter. I mean, I did track in high school and stuff like that, but once my daughter got into soccer, I got really into soccer. And actually, a little-known fact, I became a ref so that I would be quiet because I was getting too excited at games. So I figured the best way to really understand the game was learning it. So I had to go through all the trainings. There's a certain amount of hours that you have to have to get certain referee badges. I've been in lots of tournament situations, very like hard situations. And I don't know if you know this, but like, there are parents on the field that get really crazy. So, I didn't want to be one of those crazy parents, but that's why I did it. And now, I'm a really respected referee. And there's not very many women referees, at least in our area. So, it's another thing that I really am proud about because when you see— when you have girls that, you know, you're kind of prepping them before the game starts, they really look at it like, it's a girl referee. Yeah, that encourages me even more that I'm showing them, I'm modeling that, that like women can do anything. So anyways, that's actually why I became a rep.

I think it's similar in a sense for being a sales leader as well. You were Chief Revenue Officer, sales leader, pricing leaders. I feel for sales, it's also less women in a room, isn't it?

Definitely, especially at the leadership level. I mean, of course, like, that varies company to company, but as a whole, yeah, like, there haven't been very many women in the room. And usually, the women are people in culture or, like, HR roles. So, yeah, I've really, you know, yeah, I've been one of those, like, fortunate people to be trusted. And I've also had some really great women leaders and mentors as well. But, yeah, and a lot of, you know, male leaders that are very supportive. Of bringing more women leaders in. So, um, but yes, sometimes it can be, it can be challenging when you're the only woman.

Yeah. Yeah. But, but, but let's go to early stage. I want to represent more junior founders who are, have, have really small team and not worried about who's in their building yet, trying to, you know, sell their early stage product. Including myself, I'm seeing technical founders, you know, treating this idea of pricing like a Spreadsheet problem, you know, I set a number and maybe just roll it out and maybe I'll tweak it later.

So I think that like a lot of people do address it as a, like a finance problem or like an accounting problem, right? So they start with a spreadsheet and by no means is that bad, right? Like that is, that is one way to look at pricing, but I think like one thing that I would really, you know, encourage is that pricing is meant to be evolved. It is never a set and forget. It's always meant to be something that you come back to, you validate, you recheck. And there's a lot that goes into that. No matter what kind of pricing you have, what value is it providing? And is it providing that value? So, you might start on a spreadsheet of like, okay, I think I can get this many sales Based on X, Y, and Z, right? But as you gain, as you have more founders come on, or as you have a board, you have investors, right? They're going to want to see that grow, and how you grow that really matters. So yeah, it's by no means like, yeah, you have to start from a spreadsheet somewhere, but there is a point where you definitely have to make sure that you're delivering the value to your customers and get that feedback. So there's a lot of data points. that go into the evolution of pricing. But if, if you're, if your listeners think of one thing, it is meant to be an evolution. It's never meant to be like, we priced it this way and that's been working for us for now.

The reason I started with a spreadsheet is because I kind of know my costs. You know, I know the token cost, I know my API cost. It's very easy for me to list them out. So that's where I'm starting. And then it becomes like, I have no idea what to do next.

Yeah. So, I think that is a great place to start. Like, what are the hard costs? What are the business costs? So, it's not just like, okay, what's the API? But like, what are all of your costs that you have to recoup for running the business? So, thinking about not just the thing, but like all the things that power the thing that you're doing, right? So, that all needs to be thought of. But even like marketing costs, what does it actually take to market or to get leads or to, uh, to get eyeballs onto your product. Um, and that may be, you know, very, very little if you're, you know, if you're joining a podcast or something like that, right? But like, really think about considering all of your costs within there. Um, yeah. And we can get into then, like, you know, it's not just about covering your costs, it's about like, what are you providing that's different than anybody else out there? Or is it like, are you comparing yourself to somebody else. That matters. And where you position yourself matters in relation to that.

How about we just start with a case study? We can do a mini workshop. I have a small case that we can, I can run by you, you know, and talk about how to, how to solve the pricing problem for this, for this early stage company. So, my friend Nicole Konigson is building a startup and her company is called Agents Flow. It's, you probably have run into, you know, some of the AI agents company. She's building one as well. And there's so many out there right now, right? Almost every AI company is claiming they have some sort of AI agents. So it's very hard to differentiate and not to mention how to price it, right? So we'd love to get your idea on how to think about it. In our audience, I have a lot of builders are building AI agents related, you know, stuff, products.

I could speak to it generally, but I would love to share, love for you to share a little bit more about the business if you can.

So, so in plain English, what it does is it sits on top of, you know, products or platforms building AI agents. It can enable self-evolving AI agents, so make your agents work smarter. And the second benefit is it can reduce cost over time as you use it. They have technical proof points. of fit that they actually can cut costs by at least 5x. There's no numbers, no packaging, no pricing page, no landing page. So maybe we can start from there.

I love this case study. And I think it's a real one because there are so many, you know, people that are thinking of like, how can I create agents that take something off of somebody's plate, right? Like that's, that's the value that they're proposing. So I think that AI agents, you know, maybe in another session we can kind of go over like pricing fundamentals, but I think this is going to be Really good to address. So AI agents really like, they change the way that you think about pricing because the customer isn't buying a software necessarily, right? They're hiring a digital employee. And so I think like the question that can be asked is like, well, what job is the customer hiring that agent to do? Right?

The way I would interpret it is it's, you can think of it as maybe how managers managing an organization in a human company. When we know how to hire your own team and your sales reps and you train them and you put them into different tasks on different roles, and then you've learned like who's great at what kind of tasks or projects, you probably wouldn't put a PhD on a junior task, right? So you as a manager, you have to learn that information. And this is the same thing in the AI agents world. The difference is this is real time. So, in real time, you will know the performance right away at every step. And over time, you will know, like, what's the best path to go after. Like, you can assemble the team on the fly, basically, and to accomplish a project or task based on past information. And not only performance, but also your cost.

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of how much time that could have saved me. In past years, I only have to look forward. That's great. Yeah. So I think, you know, given that, like, it's, I love that it's like learning and it's taking, you know, some of those, like, it's equipping or like changing the performance or looking at the performance and knowing which tasks to give which agents that, that gives you, I guess, the best bang for your buck, right? If you said that, like, you know, the cost, you know, the expertise, right? Like, that's, that's great. And it sounds like you can even train. Different agents to learn new tasks perhaps. Right. So, um, I don't know if that's, that's an element of it too, but it sounds fascinating. Um, sounds really, really cool. Yeah. So I think that like, there's, there's a couple of different ways that, that you can, that you can do this. Um, and I think also I'll kind of talk about different like layers of, you know, how you might think of, you know, AI agent pricing. Um, and then where I think it's actually going, which might be most relevant actually to this company. So what I'll just kind of like, you know, give examples of a bunch of them. So you could certainly do an access model, right? That's like a very SaaS model, even, even, you know, SaaS entities that have AI agents. So it's probably the least differentiated, right? Examples of, you know, this, this layer 1 would be like a per-seat price, per workspace, per organization, like a monthly subscription, something of that nature, which you can totally do. And that is, That's very, very common. But you'll also, like, you'll probably want to also have like some sort of platform fee because every customer like needs some onboarding, some security, maybe some integrations, monitoring, administration, like all of that stuff. Right. Right. So this is, this is kind of the right to use the platform, right. But not where the value is. I think like layer 2 would be consumption, right? So this is where many AI companies like really, you know, take off from here, right? They'll, they'll, We're all familiar with like the tokens, an API call or minutes, documents processed or conversations or images generated, right? Like I can think of, you know, all kinds of things like that. But the trouble with that is that customers don't always understand tokens. I was literally just having a conversation. My husband happens to work for a fintech company, and I was asking him about like, you know, how many tokens do you get and how many do you use? And he's like, I don't really know. I don't think I use, I don't use them all, but like, I don't have a sense of if I'm nearing, you know, my token usage or something of that nature. Right. So it's like, if you're not, one thing with pricing is that if you make any of that complex for them, for, for a, for a customer, they have to, if they have to think about it, that's not ideal. Right. It's kind of like that example of like, nobody buys electricity because they love kilowatt hours. Right. They buy air conditioning. They just want like that outcome. So usage metrics are great internally, but like they're not a great value metric. So the next kind of, you know, layer of that is really agent capacity. So, you know, instead of like charging for seats, you could charge for workers. So maybe you have 5 active agents or 25 concurrent agents, 100 automations running, or 50 research agents, right? Like, Or unlimited agents with throughput limits, right? So those are things that you can think about as well. Um, and this really mirrors like cloud pricing, kind of like AWS. They, they don't charge one computer, they charge computing capacity, right? And so like, you know, with AI, that cognitive capacity could be an element that you, that you're thinking of, right? So these are just examples.

Have you seen those like charging per agent companies?

I haven't, I haven't worked with, um, I've only worked with one other like AI agent specific company, but everything else I've worked on has been like a component of like they have software and they have AI agents. And so this is where like maybe in another session we can come back to like some pricing fundamentals and how, how that might work like in bundles or tiers or when you think about those things. So 2 more layers that I can think of. So the 4th layer is really like work completed. And so maybe this is an element for agent flow that could work there, right? This is where pricing becomes much more aligned with like the customer value. Because again, you can, like the tokens piece, certainly engineers, coders, you know, product managers, you guys, you know, you understand. I don't want to say you guys, but like— Those of you that create, right? Like you, you have a sense of that, but the end user, that's where like that gets really confusing. And I've seen it in pricing before where people are like, wait, so what if I don't use all my tokens? What if I don't use all my calls? Like it gets confusing and you don't want them to have to think about it. So if you think about work completed, that could be like instead of the $99 per user per month, right? In a, in a, in a SaaS model, you could say like invoices reconciled or contracts reviewed, right? So as you're talking about Agents Flow, like what those things are that they're doing, these are the things that like, this is the work that they will complete. That's where like, that's where it gets really interesting actually, because I don't know with Agents Flow, like, do they have different agents doing different things for different companies? So that's where like this, this sort of idea, um, You know, is interesting, but to put a few other examples out there, maybe it's SDR outreach campaigns completed or qualified leads generated, or looks like I got the thumbs up, pricing recommendations delivered, or like claims processed, right? Like, I'm trying to think of different industries, support tickets resolved even, right? So that the customer really thinks like, did the work get done? If yes, like, great. That's at the end of the day what you really want them to think about. And that's really, that's a lot easier to justify too, like that, like you're worth the price. This is what we did for you. This is the outcome. Or that's, that's the work that was completed.

I'm just thinking, you know, they are actually an infrastructure company. So meaning that they, they, they are probably a little bit more upstream than the downstream results. So I wonder, I wonder if that's harder to quantify or define.

Yeah, definitely.

Because one workflow can be really, really heavy or expensive and another one could be, you know, something that's much simpler. It's hard to imagine like, how do we, how do we offer that? But let's say they have a dashboard, then I can totally get it that there's a platform fee for using the dashboard, understanding the performance and cost. That part I get because, because you're selling the transparency, the completion. I don't know. Tell me more. You might have other layers that you haven't shared yet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. So, I think like one of the other layers that I could think of is like just outcomes. This is really the hardest, but the highest value. So, like for instance, you know, instead of like, we have an AI pricing agent, maybe it's, you know, they're selling like increased gross margin by 3%. So, Like, for instance, when you said that they're cutting costs by 5x, how, how are they, you know, calculating that? So that, that could be, that could be their outcome, right? And so maybe that this is an element that fits, uh, like with agent's flow potentially, or, you know, instead of like, you know, like AI sales assistant, right? Like they sell 25 qualified meetings per month, right? Now you might talk about like revenue share, gain share, performance Fees, success fees, percentage of savings. So maybe it becomes a different pricing model completely. I'll just use an example that I know from my experience. So most, I'll take Mindbody as an experience and then I'll kind of compare it against something else. So Mindbody, it's a software as a service. They have a monthly fee. There's also payments APIs, like all kinds of stuff, right? Okay. But they're health and wellness software. All right. So that's one element. Then you've got this other, this other company, their name just completely shifted from my head. I'll remember it in a second. They basically have a completely different model where what they do is they have a software for personal trainers. And instead of charging a monthly fee, they charge based on the revenue that that company is getting. And the reason that they can do that is because they are almost acting as an agent that is sourcing marketing, new marketing leads, following up with new personal training leads. And then they are, they're literally like making that sale, creating that membership, getting people into the training sessions, follow up, all of that sort of stuff. And so they are basically measuring, the price that they charge is based on the marketing. So that's like, I mean, it's a totally flip of the script that like they're, they're doing, but you know, that, that's where this, like the outcome piece kind of comes into, into land. Yeah. And the attribution can be, can be messy. So that's where it's like, it's really important then for, for companies to think about what are they delivering? What's the outcome they're delivering? And can they make that attribution absolutely cleaner? That might take a little bit more integrations or a little bit coordination. But I think that's where if you can attribute that outcome that they've had to that agent, that could be really powerful potentially. Yeah. So those are like some, some layers of AI agent pricing that I could think of. Um, yeah, and it could be a hybrid too, right? Like, just like you were saying, there could be a platform fee and then there's an outcome fee, right? Like, like this, you know, 5x, um, you know, in cost savings. Like, so maybe there's an element there that they could think about, uh, for sure. Yeah.

How much does what my competitors charge actually matter when I'm, you know, setting my price? Is, is that something where I, I start?

I definitely think that, like, thinking about what competitors are doing is essential. So if you're in a, in a realm where nobody else is doing what you're doing yet, fantastic. You can really set your price. Right? Again, based on the value that the customers would perceive, that value of like, this is worth me, you know, paying that much. But if you do have competitors in this space, that's where you really need to look at how, how do you differentiate and how do you position themselves against you? Because if you're just in a vacuum on your own, you can set the price. But if you have competitors, that's where you have to really like do that research. Um, and so like there's some things to think about. So if you want to be lower than the competition, competition and gain more market share. That's one thing that you can do. You can also set your price higher, and that signifies better quality. All of your marketing, all of your positioning has to be around why you're better, why you're more expensive, or why you're a premium experience potentially. So that's something to think about in relation to competitors. There's also something where you could do like price skimming. That's charging high, And then decreasing over time, potentially. I mean, that's something that I feel like Tesla probably did, if I had to think like an example, right? They like charged a lot for like the Model S, and then you had the Model 3 come out, and those are like a lower price line, right? So, and the cost of the Model 3s and the cost of the, uh, the S's and the Y's like have all come down because there's more and more that are being manufactured. So there's things of like that. Penetration is another form of pricing. So it's low to enter. You want to take away the attention from a competitor. And then once you have more market share or wallet share, then you can raise it potentially. So like Netflix is famous for doing that. And then definitely like you want to think about in relation to competitors, is there a seasonality potentially? Is there like a sales or a discount, something like that? Like one company that I was consulting with, they wanted to, um, basically they had renewals that all came about at the beginning of the year. So we said, okay, how do we get the most people actually like signing on, um, and signing on early, um, so you can recognize some of that revenue within that year, not just in like 2027, January 2027, but before that, as long as you can deliver something. And that's where we said, okay, let's do a promotion where you can actually get that. So there's all kinds of things that you can do when it comes to competitors, but you have to have those data points of like, what are they providing for what price and how is it different from what you're providing? Right.

What if we're kind of in this emerging market? I still see AI agents as an emerging market, which means that I can say that maybe we're similar to some companies. But not completely similar. You know, how do I, how do I think about my pricing when the competitors really varies depending on how I interpret my, my product, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's where you really need to think about like the value that you are providing. So where, like, something I could think of is maybe there is a competitor that has one thing that you provide, but not another thing that you provide, perhaps. I mean, that's again where you have to really like, your messaging has to be clear of like, this is how you're different, implied better, and really, really show that there. I think there's other ways that you can do it too. I mean, like for instance, like there's a very famous video out there of Steve Jobs like unveiling the iPad and he used what's called anchor pricing. And so the anchor pricing is basically like, your pricing is anchored against something else, right? So I can't remember the— it's been a while since I've watched this video, but I'm sure I can surface it and we can post it. But it's basically like he said, here's what the competitors have. And then he basically talked about why the iPad was going to be different and better and how much it was worth. And he anchored it on, I don't know, like a $699 price or something. And then literally he showed it being shattered and said, but we're offering it for $399. Or whatever it was, right? So like, that's another thing that you can do is you use your competitor as like an anchor, and then you're literally speaking to that, maybe not saying their name, but you're speaking to like the value they're providing and how much, how yours is different, either cheaper or more expensive because you're using that as an anchor. So that could also be something that is thought of.

Speaking of this anchor pricing, right? Is that something that You know, maybe we did the thought process, we compared our price with our competitors, and this is something I take to a sales meeting as well because the iPad is a consumer product. But what about B2B? Do I just go to the sales meeting and just tell them, okay, my competitor is selling at this price and I'm $399?

Yeah, but that's where, again, like, uh, the power of how Steve Jobs does it, uh, in that, in that, you know, it was like a I don't know if it was like an Apple all hands or whatever it was. Yeah, exactly. It was something where he didn't just talk about his competitor. He talked about, he talked up all of the things. So you can't just be like, and the price is $399. It's that lead up that's so powerful. It's him really talking about all the different positioning statements. That's what makes the price powerful. So when you do have— Yeah. A price that you want to assign to something, it's not a matter of just going to the sales team and being like, there it is, sell it. It's how they pitch it. That's the important nuance that actually a lot of companies don't understand. They're like, oh, we set this price, like, what's the problem? And then you figure out months later, ah, sales didn't believe in it, or sales is discounting it because they think it's too expensive, right? And so, like, you really have to, like, there has to be an enablement portion. If, again, if you're a company that has either customer success or, you know, salespeople, you know, or even in your marketing, like, you have to really, like, do that education piece and take people along for that journey of, like, why this is priced, why it is, and then, you know, go through any, like, rebuttals, hesitations, concerns, etc., before you get 3 or 4 months down the line and be like, why isn't this selling? Why, why aren't we selling it at the $399 price? And it's because maybe somebody didn't believe in it. It's more expensive than it was before. Maybe they're not making as much of a commission on it. Like there's all kinds of behavioral things too that have to be thought of. And I think that's where also like, if you are taking notes, another thing to kind of keep in mind is that talk to your, talk to your customers about your pricing. So if you have like customer champions, That's something where you really want to say, hey, so I'm thinking about rolling out this new feature and I wanted to roll it past you. I wanted to get your feedback. First of all, that makes any customer feel really special, right? You're coming to me. It might be coming to 4 other people too, but like it makes them feel special. So asking them what they think, would they use it? Would this be powerful for them? And then just asking them the question even of like, how much would you pay for that?

Interesting.

You start to get and kind of what's called a willingness to pay. There's like a whole Van Westendorp, you know, sort of like model on pricing that you can use, but you start to understand what is their willingness to pay for this new thing, this new feature, whatever it might be. So talking with your customers, like that feedback loop is really important to like pressure test things against like whatever data on the spreadsheet you might have. You have to pressure test. So going back around to talk to customers.

Should I just do that like with Agent Flow? Let's say I'm, if I'm the sales rep for them, and then I'll just go talk to companies and just tell them what's the value add and ask, ask them, are you willing to pay for this and how much you're willing to pay?

Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that that's really powerful. I would do one better probably and really make sure that I understand the customer's needs. Do they have a need for this? Because If you say we can do all these things, and then, and then you're like, how much would you pay for this? And they're like, I wouldn't pay very much because you haven't done enough research to really understand enough of that sales discovery to really understand like what's important to them. What's gonna help them get to that next level? What's gonna help them get to that revenue outcome that they really want? That has to be understood before you truly are pitching something.

How does a technical founder should be thinking about how to do This, uh, discovery step?

Yeah, great question. Uh, I, I think like, and actually this is where I think founders are usually pretty good. Usually they are very in tune with like, right, 'cause they're building something. And I, I don't see many founders, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but usually founders are like in tune with what customers want. They have an idea and then they pressure test the ideas, right? If a founder isn't pressure testing those ideas against a customer, especially those few starting champions, then that's really telling. There was another founder that I was working with, and basically, he had said, he's like, I have this idea. And I was like, okay, that's great. Have you tested it against any customers? And he was like, well, it's a good idea, and I know it's a good idea because I've been in this position before, and this is what I really needed. And it's like, that's great. That may be one example. And so, I told him, go out to 5 people, In this industry that you're in and really pressure test this. And he came back and he was like, okay, 2 of them really needed that. The other 3 really didn't. And I was like, okay, so do you build for those 2 or do you build for the 3 or do you build for the 5 and be kind of like pivot your, or be able to offer different things to different people? And I think that's where he was like, I think that these other companies need this. They just don't know that they need it yet. And I was like, okay, but you have to meet them where they are at right now. Because if it's not solving their problem right now, you can certainly come back to them and be like, okay, let's talk in a few months and see if this is an issue for you. But it may never be an issue for them potentially. So, that's where you have to be willing to say what you stand for and what you want to do. Versus just your willy-nilly ideas that you think will work. You always have to pressure test. And that's not just a one-time thing too, right? You may deliver something and think like, high five, we delivered it. They love it, right? But do they continue loving it 6 months in? Because their business is changing too. So your business has to change with it or not. I think that's where you really have to decide. So to answer your question, how do you do that? I think you just have constant conversations. And if it's not you, it's somebody else who's asking the really insightful questions of like, what would help your business next? If we were to build anything, what would it be? And I think this is also where another founder that I've worked with, they had an idea and then they talked to a bunch of people and they were like, this is not the real problem that people need solved. It's a problem, but it's not the real problem. We discovered another problem that really needed to be solved. It's more painful. Go for that more painful. problem.

Do you have a list of these questions that you can share with our audience? Like, you know, these are the sales discovery questions and these are the, you know, the pricing discovery questions. We can just share that based on what you just taught me. So the first step for discovery of the pain points is part of building, part of the finding PMF. That step, there's no shortcut to it. Do, do you think, do you think we should think of pricing before that step, or do you think it actually happens You know, during the step or afterwards?

Oh, that's such an interesting question. Great question, Angelina. I like this one. I think that, like, okay, so first and foremost, when you're doing discovery, you have to care about the business. Like, not just pretend you care, but like really care about solving, because companies can really feel that. So, if you really care and you show like you're really curious, like, for instance, I was just talking to a business the other day, and look, I could have solved all of their problems, But I needed to know what are the other challenges that they're having that have nothing to do with me? Maybe I can't even solve those things. What I did in listening to those is I actually said, you know what? I may know somebody that might be able to help you with this other thing. I can't help you with that thing, but this is an interesting thing. Let me connect you. They instantly see you as somebody who cares genuinely about their outcomes, and then you're connecting somebody else as a figure that can help them, right? So, that's like first step in discovery is you truly have to care about the business. And really uncover all of the challenges that they're having, some of which may have nothing to do with you, but there could be a theme that comes up potentially. So that's number one. As far as like when you're thinking about building and pricing, I really, I didn't think about this at first, but now through my pricing training and the years of pricing, I've really even trained product managers, engineering teams to Think about, okay, so whatever you're building, why are you building it? And what, like, how are you going to monetize it? Like, and maybe you don't monetize it at all at first, but there may be a point in time when you have investors, when you have a board that say, how can you monetize that? You've already built that into it, right? You've already, you've already done some of that thinking. So again, maybe you don't charge for that thing, but knowing how much somebody's willing to pay is an important question to ask. Again, even if you don't charge for it, it's something that I think it's good to think of, especially if you ever want to think about tiers. So tiers or bundles or something of that nature. And there's so much more we could get into with all of that. But, you know, with tiers and bundles, you have to think like, why am I building this thing? And what is it going to go into? What value is it going to bring? And that kind of determines then where you place that. Is it in a basic tier? Is it in kind of like a medium? you know, middle tier, or is it in the premium tier? I think knowing that and knowing how valuable it is will really drive smart revenue through the company.

So, you're saying price before the product?

I think it's both. It goes together. Like, every product person should be thinking, when I make this, if I ever had to monetize it, like, what would that look like? Would it, you know, just, it's part of the thinking, right? It's kind of like saying, you know, how would you market this thing? Well, you should be thinking of that even as you make it. What is the solution that you're giving? Well, just hand in hand, what's the price to value that a customer might see in this? If there is no value, like, if they would never pay anything for it, then it may be either table stakes or it's really not worth developing.

Right.

So that's, I think, what I would think about that. I don't think it is like product and then pricing or pricing before product. It's kind of like at the same time, what does this thing do? What, and what value does it bring? Um, and what might somebody pay for it? And I know that's probably a lot to think about all at once. So you can certainly like build a thing or, you know, create the, the A-frames to run it past a customer and then ask them like, is this something you would actually pay for? Is it like, how much value do you get? Would you get out of this? Or how much saving, how much time savings? So that's where like ROI calculators can be really powerful. So like for this agent's flow, like they have, you know, this confidence that it will reduce costs by 5x. That's huge. What are their costs right now? Can you actually like define that? And so then if you were to say, okay, so if we were to save you $50,000 a year and I charge you like less than 10% of that, is that worth it? Yes. Right. So I think that that's where knowing your price to value just really helps. Again, whether or not you charge for that upfront or, you know, somewhere down the line, it's something you always have to think of.

Yeah. In order to price something like Agent Flow, for instance, as a builder, I'm assuming the founder knows how much it costs or the team costs, whatever infrastructure, whatever. So that piece is solid. They probably know about it. Yeah.

And I'd probably build that into the platform fee. So cover, cover those costs as much as you can.

As a sales rep, I'm going to go talk to different companies and discover, am I really solving— is this product really going to help you solve a pain point? They might come back and tell me 5x cost reduction is very, very interesting. And then in that process, I can ask them, how much is your cost, right? Do you want to do a pilot? And then we can go into that and actually have verified ROI. And let's say it's $10,000.

Yes.

That's their initial cost before, right? And then after that, it's $2,000, let's say. And then I can give a price point when all these data points are collected.

Yeah, totally. I think that's where also, yeah, one of the things that, and all of these founders may be at different points and stages of their existence, right? Being able to say to a pilot prospect that you're talking to of like, We have 10 other companies using this, right? That's huge. That's powerful. If we say, being able to say we've got 10 other customers and we verified that we've been able to at least 5x their cost savings with all 10 companies, that's powerful, right? The more proof points you can have, the more somebody's going to believe that you are the company for them. You are going to be able to help them, right? And And being able to say also, like, we've done, we did this much by this time, right? So maybe did it take 3 months? Did it take 8 months? Did it take 2 years? That's going to be, that's going to be something that naturally somebody is going to ask as well. But I think that you, you know, being able to like, you know, have, if you, if you can get 10 customers just paying the platform fee, great. That's covering your costs, right? Like hopefully, and then you can start to like Develop more and more features and go to each of those 10 and be like, is this valuable? Is this not valuable? No? Okay, great. We're going to stop development on that. We're going to go full bore investment on this other thing, right? So I think, I think you need to get customers in the door first. And that's where like, maybe it's just, you know, it's a pilot. It's, it's free to a point potentially. I mean, we can talk all about, gosh, you know, the freemium things. Like we could talk all day about all that stuff too. But I think that that's where you need to get clients in the door so that if you Uh, if you are talking to a board or future investors, which I think a lot of your listeners are, that's where you need to say like, I've got this many customers paying this much. And this is where that platform fee, it really creates predictable revenue, right? They're paying this much every month or every year. And that's predictable. Investors love predictable. So if you have that at the very least, and then you start thinking about Either agent capacity and how you how you price those things, right? Like you start to add on from there. So I guess it really depends on where you're at in your business and what you need in order to gain more confidence and then evolve from there. But again, coming back to our rule number one, pricing should always be something that evolves. It should always be something you're looking at and coming back to and being like, "Should are we are we leaving money on the table?" And if you had if you you know first you had just the platform fee. to these 10, 20, 50 customers. From there, you can go, okay, you've got enough data. You can start to see what they're using the most and what they're not. So, that's how you start to test. And then, you could maybe do either tiers or bundles, or you start being able to have a sense. But that's where the usage comes in. And you can even say, this is something we did with customers, like, hey, do you find this really valuable? And they're like, let's, I don't know. Then, we see their usage and we might even tell them their usage. Did you guys, did you know that your team is using this 50 times a day? And they're like, I had no idea. I had no idea it was that important. That also becomes part of that retention conversation if you ever need to. So like tracking the usage of what types of businesses are using what the most is going to factor into that pricing conversation too, of what you put in a basic structure versus like, you know, the middle structure versus a premium structure as well.

There are so many options in pricing now. As a founder, I really need to be very open-minded towards different options. Like for this specific example, uh, it sounds like I should think about a platform fee, which is more predictable, as you said, and probably should consider a hybrid approach. Only through these conversations can I actually find that out and also find ways to reshape or pivot the product itself.

Totally. And sometimes this can be done in the form of a survey, right? But like, if you have some customers or if you want to even just gauge interest, I mean, it's, it is interesting at Mindbody. One of the things we used to do in market research and user research. So, those 2 teams really worked hand in hand together. And it's, you know, that's more of a bigger company thing where you can even have the luxury of having 2 different teams that can do that. But one of the things that user research was always responsible for was like, hey, let's validate these ideas of what we think is going to be powerful new features, right? So, UX would be responsible for that. Market research would then go out and do a huge survey to a lot of those kinds of businesses that we were targeting. And we'd say, hey, how much are you spending on marketing these days? What does that look like? Is it a separate component or is it similar, right? So, like, if Mindbody had an idea to take a marketing thing in-house and offer that within the platform, that's something that we validated not just in our users, our existing users, but also for prospects, like just the market in general. And then we would say, wow, like Mindbody has, you know, customers that have a bigger usage set for that particular feature than the general public, right? But it also helped us know, how do we go to market, you know, attracting new people in What do we have to say that's different than say, like adding on or upselling an existing customer? So that's just a very like vague example, I know. But these are, these are the things as you evolve are good.

How long do you think for a new company, no pricing solidified, how long does it actually take to do a real pricing exercise?

I mean, I don't, I don't think it should take very long, right? So like, here's, here's an example with a very large business. We would do a pricing workshop, like to start. It was a, it was a 3-day event, right? But that was like, we had never done a pricing exercise before. Uh, you know, they, um, we collected the data ahead of time, but like nobody reviewed the data, right? Like we really had to take them through a journey. So that's like with a big business with like multiple different organizations, really kind of walking through this. Okay. So In a smaller beta, you know, beginning, you know, company, I would say that maybe it's a half day, right? Like, here's the data that you're looking at, and you probably know your data because you're small and you're looking at the data all day. And there are, like, I, you know, I've, I've done, you know, different pricing workshops, but I can also recommend, you know, a really just amazing kick-ass pricing consultant that might be able to help too. Um, and so, like, I think that it really depends if you're looking just for A competitive analysis, that could be, that could take, you know, very little amount of time. If it's a full, you know, workshop sort of thing, you know, maybe that takes 3 days. But I think the, you know, getting the brains together and everyone aligned on like, what should we do? And then executing to that execution part is the longer part, right? Like, are there different updates that you have to make in order to make that pricing possible? Right. So like, I think like there's, there's, there's the brainstorming and the workshopping.

Mm-hmm.

Versus the execution, those can be different things. But I think for a smaller business, it shouldn't take a huge amount of time. If you're talking about it all within a week and then the execution is after that, I think that that's plenty of time to really come to fruition. I was working with a company in Spain and they literally, they're like, we don't know how to price this at all. This is what we have. This is who we have using it. What do you think we should do? And they were contemplating either a price increase or moving some of these freemium people to a paid thing and what was going to happen in the churn. All of that, we had to look at the data of what were the different risk factors. But all in all, I think we probably had 3 or 4 engagements together talking through, okay, we have some more questions. What happens if we do this and how should we message that to their existing customers? I think all in all it was like 4 engagements. And, um, you know, when they got back to me afterwards, they were like, this went really well. Like we had very little churn or the churn we had churn that we knew we wanted. We didn't want these customers. And that was powerful. But I think if you're brand new and starting out, it's having an idea of what the pricing could be and then testing that, right? Test it with a few, a few people. Uh, and then, you know, be able to test something different with a few other people and see how that goes. Get their reflections. Like, that's, that's the piece that if you're brand new, you really have to test some things.

I want to do a rapid-fire round, like, very quickly, and you can just tell me your reaction. Everyone tells me I need a free tier for adoption. Without one, no one will try me. What do you think? True or false?

That is really— so that is really common. Sometimes that is really important to do to get, like, traction. But there are also times when people will not go for a free version at all because they think it's not, it's not worth it. Like it's not quality, right? If something's for free, well then it must be pretty bad. So I think you have to tread onto that. You have to kind of tread into that lightly. Also, something else that, that I've seen is when somebody's gotten something for free, when you want to charge them, this actually happened with the company in Spain. They had a whole bunch of freemium customers and Those customers were perfectly happy using it when it was free. They didn't want it. Wasn't valuable enough to then pay for it for them. And so like that was really that was really interesting. You know to see who stayed or goad on that freemium tier. So yeah, like I think that's where you have to be careful. You have to make sure if you have a freemium tier, you have to make sure that you're delivering value because when you want to then charge for it, are they going to pay for it? Do they see the value in it? Is it, is it really worth it? Or is it something that they could just, it was easy for them, but they can do it just as easily just on their own in a spreadsheet or like on their own truly. So I think that, that I, it's neither good nor bad. It depends. I know that you hate that answer.

What matters more, price right on day 1 versus how about I just go with a number and then just, just, you know, have the discipline to raise it later. Which one is better?

I think it, it, it depends, right? Like, where, where are you getting that price? Like, is it founded on something? You often can raise. It's sometimes more challenging to lower. And if you are going to lower, because maybe you found that you came in a little too high, um, better be sure that those legacy customers, you're willing to lower it for them as well. Because otherwise, like, I have seen companies Where they're like, no, those people, they bought and they paid a higher price. We're just going to like keep like trying to get as much as we can out of them. That I would say backfires on the loyalty and the integrity piece. So if you're going to like set a high number, see what you can get, and you need to lower later, that's right. You should really be willing to lower it for everybody, right? If you are going to start low and then raise, that's something that I always try to do. Like, let's start low. We can always raise from there as people see the value, et cetera. Um, so that's usually the path that I take, but there may be some times where, you know, again, it's that back to that competitive landscape. Are you trying to capture more market share than your competitor? Maybe your competitor is priced at one thing and you want to price higher because you do provide a more premium experience. There are some people that will be like, I, I want to buy the premium experience. No matter what it costs, I want that more premium thing, right? Because I believe it's better, and I want to talk about it as if it's better. Then you have, you know, if you want to take more market share from your competitor, maybe you want to price lower, and then maybe at some point you raise to meet them potentially, but you're trying to steal a lot of attention. And so that could be a play that you do. So it's neither bad nor good to start high or low. It just depends on what you do next. But that's why I usually say, Start lower if you can, because oftentimes too, a competitor can't meet that. But it's also like, how long can you do that? How long can you be at that low price and still cover your costs? Um, right?

Is this pricing low better or premium is better? I can lower it, lower it so much that it becomes free. And then where's the line, right? Which one is better?

Yeah, I, I, uh, so this is my personal preference. Like, it depends. Every, every company is a little bit different, and there may be a reason to have a company do freemium. But I always say that, like, having them pay something is better because here's the thing too, when they're paying something, they are more committed to make it work, right? Like, if they're not paying anything, then they kind of like, they don't expect anything from it, or They expect it to tie their shoes and make their toast for them as well, right? Like there's a weird set of customers that will expect everything from it because it's free. But that's where like, if they're paying something, they have a little bit more investment into like, will it work for them or not? And even if that's a low rate. So I always like to say, I'd rather, you know, for most businesses, I'm being very, very general here. For most businesses, I'd rather have a very, very low tier. $5, say $8, like whatever that might be, a very, very low tier. And then like, you know, or maybe it's like, it's a, it's a low price for a certain amount of time. Maybe it's for the first, you know, 15 days, or maybe it's for the first 30 days. So you could do something like that. I'd rather them invest a little bit because what I don't want is I don't want the freemiums that are just the tire kickers. And then they're not really customers. Like that's what starts to come out. In investments and boards of like, well, how many of these are real customers? Oh, well, they're on the freemium tier. So you don't know, are they just tire kickers?

They're always charging something. At least give you a little bit of signal, right?

Yes. Give me a signal that you are, you're invested even like minutely. It could be a very low, low price, but like, at least you've got an investment. They had to like do that effort to give that payment. So that's where I would, I would always advise. You know, again, generalizing, freemium might be something for some companies that is good, but I would say it's freemium for a small period of time. So is it free for 3 days? Is it 7 days? Is it 15 days? Whatever that looks like, it's not free forever. Unless again, you're, you're making your money in other ways, right? Like the Google model, it's free, but they make their money in other ways, right?

Right.

Or you could have a very low price model. They make, you know, maybe there's upsells from there that make most of the money up, right? Or, um, like I think Zoom, for instance, has, you know, they, they don't, they charge like actual, like bigger companies a little bit more because they're using more of it so that they can charge like smaller companies very, very little. So there's, there's elements to that that I think need to be thought of too.

What about charging what the market will bear? I remember I talked with someone from a data company. Their pricing team told me that they name a price, and then if a client says yes, then they will raise it the next time. They just keep going until their client says, you know, that's too hot.

Yeah, that's again getting to that Van Westendorp model of willingness to pay. For some people, then there's usually like, it's kind of, without bringing up the picture of it, there's like kind of quadrant of like what's too much, what is too low, and then there's like a goodness in between. The tricky part about that is, you know, some customers, if you approach them like, hey, we price this special to you, that could signal then that like, well, wait, so if somebody's better at negotiating, do they just get a better price than I do? And that's tricky, right? So, there's all kinds of things that you have to think of with that. And so, yeah, if it is If that customer, if you do want to try and get, you know, kind of test like how much you can get from that customer, you have to make sure that value is following, not just like charging more just to charge. Like you want to make sure that that value is in line. But that's where like when you do a Van Westendorp like study, it actually says what's too high, what's too low, right? And that's where like if you're talking to your customers like, okay, what would you pay for that? And they're like, I don't know. First of all, maybe the question is, would you pay for that? Yes, you would. Okay. Would you pay $200? And they're like, yeah, I'd pay $200. Would you pay $250? Ah, $250 feels a little bit too high, right? Like that's, that's how you start with those lines. And then like, it's like, it's like a little quadrant or a little, little, you know, shape in between. That's where you want to land.

Oh, can I ask multiple clients? The first one I was able to sell at $250 and I'm going to raise it to $275. And to see if we can sell at $275, then that's going to be my new baseline.

Yeah, you can totally do that. And that's where like you sometimes have to do a little bit of experimentation to land, like, uh, you know, like, uh, for instance, with Monograph, I think, uh, before I got there, they were, uh, they were charging maybe like $29 or $49 or something. And they literally found they could triple it. So, but they did that through testing. So that's where like, okay, with those legacy people that were at the $29, you have to have a plan eventually. I mean, it can be years down the road, but you have to have a plan eventually of how you increase them, right? There's also a lot around how the percentage of how much you increase somebody in any one year, right? So it's like, it shouldn't be huge digits, right? You shouldn't be like, I'm upcharging you 50% more. I'm going to raise your price by that much. That doesn't sit well. So like, do you have to spend years to try and get them up? Or is it a conversation of these are our new tiers, or this is our new pricing, we'd like to get you up to this, and showing like the ROI that you've, that you've proven to them already, right? Like there's, so there's other ways to do that. But yes, to your point, you can totally be like, let's try this at $275. Um, and let's try it like on 5 customers, 5 prospects at $275 to see if they bite. And if they don't, then you know. Maybe your pricing is around $269. I mean, there's, there's even so much methodology around, um, you know, do you do $499 or do you do $500 or do you do, uh, $197 or do you do, make it something clean? There's a whole bunch of psychology around that that we can probably get into next time as well. So.

Well, I love that. I really wanna understand the psychology of pricing. Really curious whether it differs between the consumer product versus the business product because Is it, are people thinking differently if it's a B2B because it's not my money anyway?

I wonder if people would be more willing to pay. The consumer behavior is definitely different than the business behavior, um, for sure. But all pricing has psychology. Like even when you say like the $14.99, when you're out and about as a consumer, that takes so long to say $14.99 rather than just $15. But there is a psychology of it being under $15. Right? That's why you see a lot of like 49, 59, 69. It's under a certain threshold, or like 95 instead of 100, right? Because once you get into 100, you just feel like, ah, it's a whole— it's a whole other big jump.

A lot of us think we're probably charging too low, and it turns out many of them have told me that over time they figured out that they are— they were charging too low.

So thinking about Pricing is an evolution. Like testing is huge, right? Making sure you get that customer feedback beyond that. It's pricing that outcome, not just the technology that you're, that you're utilizing. It's maybe thinking about the value metrics. Like, again, it's bringing it back to that customer journey. What is it that they care about? Not just like, oh, you know, we built this thing and so we built it to charge by seat. But by seat, like, doesn't per seat doesn't really make sense or per call or whatever it is. Like, right. Like you have to, you have to think about it in value terms for the customer. So I think that's really important. Uh, one other like kind of pitfall that I've seen businesses, especially like new founders think about is that like usage pricing, like don't think of usage pricing as just like, oh, that's the pricing way. Or like, that's what everyone uses. Like, Um, it just, it just doesn't mean that you should, right? Like, you know, especially because like OpenAI charges by tokens, right? And that's like by usage. So like they have a certain model. And so others are starting to like follow that model because it's what they're used to, but that's not always what I think makes sense for a business. So you might have to test some different pricing models to see what lands. And I think then like price, if I think, you know, kind of a big picture, Price should really reinforce the strategy. So it's not just about the revenue collection; it shapes that customer behavior, right? So like you know product-led growth that could be removing purchasing friction, enterprise expansion that could be encouraging multi-team adoption perhaps, or there's premium positioning and that avoids you know the race to the bottom of like who can be the lowest. So I think that that's that's something that should really like. How— what do you really want your— the value your customers to get, and how does that influence their behavior? That pricing should follow the behavior that you want them to take. Um, like, we could get into next time, like, for instance, if you did have one basis of pricing and you wanted the customer behavior to be you want them to add on, well, making those add-ons easy, uh, you price them such as such, right? But then you go, well, you could Surely you could add, you could add this on and you could add that on and you could add that on. But like, if you add 2, you're up into this other tier anyways, and you get a 3rd one for free. You know what I mean? It's things like that, like design it for the path you want them to take. And so if that is an upsell or if it's something like that, somebody to think about. I wouldn't obsess over willingness to pay interviews, right? Like how much would you pay? Like I think asking those questions, which we can come up with and create a resource for your audience, but what are you replacing? Are you replacing 2 people? I mean, that's something I always had to think about in operations of, okay, if I do this workflow, if I do this process, I have this new tool, who am I replacing? And it's not that I'm just laying people off and letting them go. What can I use those brains to do differently then? How can I use those same people that are within my business to do something different then? That's what I kind of think about. How painful is something today? Or how often does this happen? And right, you want to make sure that you're thinking about like asking the right questions to get at, okay, so that's a pain point, but how often is the pain point? Is it just like, it was just a recency bias where it was like yesterday? So those are things to think about too. And also like, what happens if you do nothing? So if you don't make a change, there's a, there's a cost to that. And then I think Trying to think what else. I think just kind of what we were talking about, your first pricing model is a hypothesis that you need to test. So as we were talking about that, like, do you charge, do you say, oh, this will be $250 and they totally bit it. They're like, oh, $250 is a bargain. Okay, great. Maybe you say $350 next time. Right? So it's all about testing hypotheses and then coming back and rethinking them. But that's where pricing, again, coming back to our Number one rule is it should be an evolution always. So those are the things that come off the top of my head. Being aware of your competitors, of course, differentiating from them is also huge. Yeah. So those are the kinds of things that I think of to sort of summarize how a founder should be thinking about things.

Thank you, Janae, by the way. I really enjoyed this session. I feel like I learned a lot. I learned several things. One is we keep coming back, The pricing is something that's evolving with you and with your product. It also seems to be a value discovery journey for yourself and for your product as well. You, you are trying to discover like, what is the real value I'm providing to my customers, basically.

Yes.

Right?

And that's huge, Angelina, because what the value you provided one year may not necessarily be the value that they see the next year. They may just like take it for granted and they're like, yeah, but what have you done for me lately? So, that's again why that evolution has always got to be something you always have to be looking at. Gosh, what value am I providing? And I think that there are definitely consultants that can help with that. You don't have to have a full-time team doing that. Like somebody can come in and interview your customers, put all that information together. They're third parties. And sometimes, that's really beautiful because a third party can glean more information than if it was the company themselves, right? Or maybe that, you know, It really says a lot that a company, like a CEO or a founder is doing an interview. It's like, wow, like you really do care. So there might be loyalty points there as well to think through. But yes, like you should always be evaluating and reevaluating, like what is the value? And as other competitors come up in your space, what differentiated you before may not differentiate you as much. And therefore your price, you might, you might be maybe charging too much now.

I've never thought that pricing strategy actually changes your user behaviors. That's so interesting and new to me.

Yeah. Yeah, no, of course. Like, and that's why when you were asking me earlier in our conversation, you know, is it like you need to think about the product and then the pricing or the pricing first and the product? It's like, how do you, you don't think of the, the user experience like separately, like you think of the idea, but then you think of like, what's the best experience for that? Part of that experience and that value, because remember, buying something, anything is an emotional experience, right? Like, may not always be the most emotional experience, right? But that's where you really need, like, depending on how you're pricing something, like, it, you have to factor that in. Humans are still here because we are human and we have these emotions. That's something that no matter how much AI you have, we're still the ones buying. the things, right? Is you still have to appeal to the humans.

Before we end, I have a confession. I spent in the past least amount of time on thinking about pricing, and what I did was I just, I just went to ChatGPT and asked, how much should I charge? Let's start with that number. I don't know how many founders, or, you know, the early-stage founders are doing the same thing. Hopefully I'm not the only one.

You're not the only one, and that's That's where I would start tomorrow too. But hopefully through this conversation, that's where you can start. But then you really have to like understand, like if that's not getting you customers or you're getting customers at a slower rate, or they just don't see the value, like you've got to do something differently. And this is where, again, like you still have to have that human interaction either to tell the pricing agents, like, what should I do? Right. And like, you know, assess that data. That's all good and well, but at the end of the day, like, you need some human thought into this because again, it's, it's, uh, the buying experience is emotional. So, um, yeah, I think it's perfectly normal and natural to start from a ChatGPT or a Claude and be like, how much should I charge? That's great. It's just, you're going to have to do some work from there.

I would love to close our podcast by asking you a traditional question. What kind of book would you recommend to our audience?

That is a great question. And I'm actually going to give you a pricing book. There's a lot of books that come to mind, but one pricing book that I can think of, it's called Monetizing Innovation. So it talks about how smart companies design the product around the price. It's a really, really, really great book that I love. And it's especially around like the product design piece around the price. And so that goes back to what we were saying of Do you think about the product first and then the price or the price and the product? It's both. It's both together. So this is by Madhavan Ramanarajam. I don't know how to say that. And then George Talk, but we can certainly post it afterwards too. But this is a great book.

Awesome. Thank you so much. Really honored to have you here today.

We'll see you next time. Thank you, Angelina. Such a great time. So much fun.