TC184: Dr Anita Collins on the Neuroscience of Music Lessons and the Brain

Hey everyone, it's Tim here, and before we begin today's episode, I just want to acknowledge the COVID-19 situation, which is rapidly changing and affecting all of us around the world right now. In fact, the situation has changed so fast that many of us are now facing lockdowns in our countries and have been forced to move all our teaching online in a very short space of time. While the changes may seem daunting, teachers around the world have embraced this new reality, and while finding the transition exhausting at times, we're hearing many reports of teachers who are enjoying the experience. On the blog, we've got our expert roundup of online teaching resources, and our YouTube and Facebook streams will be of particular interest to those of you teaching with Zoom and exploring multi-camera setups and software like ManyCam. And over at topmusicpro.com, we've released a brand new online teaching workshop for our members, and I'm recording as many tutorial and problem-solving videos there as I possibly can. If you've got any questions, please reach out to us on social or email support@topmusic.co. Rest assured, the Top Music community is here to help support and guide all of you through this challenging period. Keep up the great work, stay positive, and I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome back everyone, you're listening to The TopCast, your weekly home for inspiration, lesson ideas, and support for your music teaching studio. And you're listening to episode number 184 and a very special welcome to my Top Music Pro teachers. Now before we get into today's topic, I just wanted to remind you again that we're right in the middle of Online Teaching Month on the blog and on YouTube, and also in our membership with some of the resources that we're providing our members. And this is a topic that's become more and more popular recently. So if you're interested and have any questions about online teaching, teaching via Zoom or Skype or FaceTime, how to do it, what to do when you can't touch kids' books or hands, and all of those kinds of questions— discipline, focus— then make sure you check out some of the resources that we've been sharing online. over on the blog at topmusic.co/blog and also on my YouTube channel. And keep in mind that today's show notes and full transcript are available as well at topmusic.co/episode184. So in today's episode, I'm wrapping up our 4-part series sharing with you some of our speakers from Piano Pivot Live back in January 2020. And in this episode, we're giving you a taste of one of our other keynote speakers, Dr. Anita Collins, who was talking about fireworks in the musical brain. Now, if you don't know Anita, then here is a little bit about her. Dr. Anita Collins is an award-winning educator, researcher, and writer in the field of brain development and music learning. Anita is best known for her role as on-screen expert and campaign lead for the Don't Stop the Music documentary that aired in Australia on the ABC in late 2018. She's recognized for her unique work in translating scientific research of neuroscientists and psychologists to language that the everyday parent, teacher, and student can understand. Anita is currently an expert education advisor for professional orchestras, public, independent, and Catholic school authorities, Australian and international media production companies, research expert for university, advocacy for nonprofit organizations, and a founding director of the Rewire Foundation. Now, as I mentioned at the end of last episode, it was Really lucky that we could actually speak to Anita at all because sadly, she couldn't actually attend the conference at the last minute due to bushfires in Canberra. She was actually in the airport ready to leave when they closed the airspace and the airport and told everyone that they had to go home, that there would be no more flights that day. So we sort of swung into action and I spoke to my tech team and I said, look, how can we make this happen? And in actual fact, I have to give a shout out to Samantha Coates and Carly McDonald. who helped me realize when I had so many things going on in my head during the conference that perhaps we could get her on Zoom and project it live on the screens, that I hadn't actually thought of that as a solution. So we did manage to do it and we caught her on Zoom. And I have to say, I'm so glad we did that because she and her presentation ended up being one of the absolute highlights for our delegates. So her topic originally was to be the following: an enormous amount of research has been conducted over the last 2 decades about how music learning impacts brain development. The research has revealed new understandings about how the brain processes music and how the learning process sets off incredible fireworks within every musician's brain. And because of the nature of our Zoom conversation and how it all ended up, it ended up being more of a Q&A and an interview with Anita live on stage. And it worked really, really well. The questions we got were fantastic. And Anita was only too happy to unpack as much as she could in the time that we had available. So here is Anita Collins, not live on stage, but live on Zoom on the Piano Pivot Live stage with her presentation. I hope you enjoy it.

Please welcome Dr. Anita Collins. So I want to start with a question for me. What does it feel like to be so famous as a TED speaker?

It's a bit weird. I had a lady— I was in the Sydney Central Station and I had a lady get off the train and she grabbed me and she said, you're the lady on the television, I love you.

I love it.

So, but I think the thing I really like is being able to see that there is an impact, not only, not just of my work, but people are able to use that work and are able to listen. And it's not just, you know, music teachers who've heard it all before, it's, you know, state governments. And I'm about to start working with some really huge philanthropic groups around the country, big corporates who have suddenly gone, you know what, music education is the next step. So we're on the very front of a wave, I think, in this country, and we can show a lot of other countries how to get it right. But we're also solving it our own way, and I think that's really important.

Fabulous. Well, we've got our first question for you. Martha, who you know well, has asked, can you tell us about the fireworks you're able to see through the fMRI, and do other areas other than music respond as greatly?

Great question.

So you better actually talk about what the fireworks are for those who don't know.

Yeah, yeah, okay. So that, that's a whole lecture in itself, but in a nutshell, Michelle, the very first thing they found, you would have seen on the TED little animation, which is the auditory, visual— and I always do a triangle— auditory, visual, and motor cortices. So our ears, our eyes, and our body connected consistently as we learn music. And they have to be. If you think about it, like, to play a piano and to read music, you've got to interpret the symbol, you've got to hear the sound you want in your brain, you've got to put that into the piano, and then you've got to hear that sound back into your brain and go, was that the right sound? And what's more, you're doing that incredibly quickly. So it's, um, it has what's called high cognitive load, which means it's, it's a really— and I interpreted that to be it's a good workout for the brain. So it's, it's just like a high-intensity workout for the brain. Since the, the video in 2014, we've moved a really long way. And I actually think the next 5 years are the most exciting 5 years we're going to have of this research. We've almost reached the sort of pinnacle at the top. What they've found is that there are 3 areas of the brain working. Those 3 areas of the brain have 3 networks that connect them. So if you think about the parts of the brain are the buildings and the networks are the roads going around. But then they've found 6 other networks which are operating simultaneously as we learn to play music, and they're things like the reward network. So we actually set off our own little drug lab in our heads when we play music, and that, that's why we keep going back to it. We set off the cognition network, which is about making meaning of, so analytical and making meaning out of it. We set off the sensory network, which we now, anyone who's teaching young children or early childhood would know, of course, the sensory network's the most important, but we've kind of forgotten that as kids and as adults as we get older. So we're now finding that's where everyone, that's getting set off. The perceptual network's getting set off, the cognition, the cognitive and the competent network, they're 2 different ones, gets set off and the emotional network. And that's all happening simultaneously. While we're doing music as it's happening over time, our brains are dissecting it vertically over time as well. But then we're almost doing it 3-dimensionally over time at the same time. So it's— those are the fireworks. That's the reason why they saw so many lights going off at once, because there are so many parts of the brain that are being utilized through one single activity.

I mean, it's mind-boggling that it works at all. I mean, how does— how's it possible? It's, it's kind of insane, isn't it?

Yeah, well, they think the reason why it's possible is because it's one of our oldest networks. So we had music before we had language. So the reason why it's so good at what it's doing is it actually was one of the very first. So the brain has evolved over time, but music and music processing, sound processing, was one of the very first parts, and therefore it's had the longest amount of time to develop. So that's why it's so—

One of the questions, and I remember asking you this when we had our podcast, is about rewards. Now, you mentioned the reward system of the brain. Now, it makes sense that kids that love playing an instrument will keep going back and wanting to play more. And I've seen this with Jack, my son, on his guitar. He's just going back and back and back. But for other— and it doesn't always happen though. So how do we judge how we use our own reward systems, whether that's stickers or food or— Miss Mack, who everyone knows was my teacher, gave me money. I remember her putting like $1 and $2 in the piano. Winner! How do we use those to— because sometimes we need a little kickstart, I think, to the brain's reward systems. Tell us, can you tell us a bit more about that?

So kids are very externally reward-focused. Very few kids are born being internally reward-focused. Like they actually go, I just want to do it because I want to do it. That's not how kids are built. We actually spend all of our lives trying to get intrinsic motivation, which happens in adulthood. And that's why stickers, stickers are the bomb. Stickers are the best. They are the— that's an external reward. But what it is, is it's reinforcing. We give them when they do something or when they accomplish something. So the brain goes, I've got something, I've been given something because I did this action. I will do that action again. So it works externally, but what we're trying to do is move from external to internal. And a lot of what we're finding, and it's not just in music, in all education, that it's about giving kids choice and having them far more involved in their learning from much earlier. It's not that rote learning anymore of just play it again, play it again, play it again. It's like, play it again, and this is what all great teachers do, play it again, but this time can we try and do this, or can we aim for this, or can you play around with it and see what happens? It's that moment that actually moves a kid from extrinsic or external motivation to internal motivation. But it's, um, we're not born with it, so we have to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat to get to that point where our brain goes, no, I want to do it because I, I want to do well. And I think I've experienced it, my students, they have this click moment. Sometimes it's when they're 16, 17, and they suddenly go, I'll just go and practice myself. I don't need to be told. I don't need to, you know, I'm going to set myself a goal and I'm going to get to it. It's like You've reached that point. You've reached that point where you're pushing yourself. But it happens at a different point for every kid, and every child is different, every adult is different. So we are learning about the reward network through studying musicians and people who are addicted to drugs, because that's when the musicians— is when the reward network's firing really well and internally. And addiction comes from it not firing the same way and possibly leading to other— sorts of behaviours or needs. So it's a really interesting— this is how we as musicians are the guinea pigs for great brain health.

We've heard it from Anita, stickers are okay at the start at least to get that motivation going, right? Yeah, so there you go. Maybe the money wasn't quite the right thing, but I don't think anyone gives money anymore.

Hey, did it work? Doesn't matter.

I'm here today, right? So it must have done something.

Yeah.

Now we've got some other great questions coming in, and just stop me if you want to go on and talk about anything else in particular, but otherwise, you happy to keep going through the questions for now?

No, questions are great. It sort of tells me where you guys are at and what's most interesting to you.

Cool. Um, so I love this. Uh, Don't Stop the Music was a flashback to my musical education in the '80s. Why has our education system in Australia gone away from this?

I think it's for a lot of different reasons. I think there's a bit of a misconception, well, a lot of a misconception that you study music to be a professional musician. So it's a direct line. And we've lost what we had even 100 years ago. Music was a core part of the curriculum, and not, not as an arts study, it was music. So we've gone away, we've, we've gone into— and anyone who follows Ken Robinson and his thinking about how we need to evolve school, um, will know that it's, it's— we've kind of drifted. We've drifted away from this idea. You do this thing. So it's like saying we study maths because every child's going to be a mathematician, and that's not correct. So, but somehow we've got it in us that music is only for the talented, only for those who can perform at the very highest level, for those whose parents can pay for it because it's an extra, and for those who show an interest. So that we shouldn't force any child into doing an activity. that they don't seem to show an interest in. Now, I think where this research really kicks in is to say, actually, music is a tool. And, you know, it's chicken and egg. Did we as humans make music and then our brain went, oh, this is useful? Or did our brains have music in them and then we've constructed it? Because we're the only species that has music. So why have we got it?

Hmm.

That's a big question in the research. But the idea that we— every child needs music for their cognitive development as well as their musical development. I don't look at them as one or the other. I say we need them for both reasons. And in many cases, kids need it because it's hard and because it's frustrating and because it's difficult. Because in our first world countries, we're running into this problem where— and it's coming to schools— they haven't got resilience and they haven't got persistence. Because we're getting a bit like, well, if it's too hard, they can give up because they're not enjoying it. As opposed to actually, we're not allowing them to develop resilience, which is kicking us in the teeth when we become adults because we're not allowed to, to respond to things that happen in life. We haven't got those skills. So that's why music comes back into that early part, besides the fact it's needed for language development, it's needed for executive function and social skills. It's all these super important things. So I think we've just lost our way. I think that's why I like this research, because it looks at music as a different additional purpose to what kids need in school and what they need to just be productive adults, not to be musicians.

Mm-hmm.

That's the whole idea. So I think, and I think, you know, the South Australian government has seen that very, very clearly, and they have then used Catch a Catcher strategy for the next 10 years. Like I said, there's groups all over the world and all over Australia, big groups, who are suddenly going, you know, we need to think differently about this. So we're on the way. Don't Stop the Music was perfect for that because it showed the Australian public not music, it showed the process of music and why it was so important.

And the power of it too, I think.

Yeah, I think we don't do that enough. We show the shiny performance at the end because that's what we're taught to do and not the practice in the middle. And I think we need to get better at showing The process of learning and why that's beneficial to a child's development. Yeah.

So for those of you who didn't see it, we should have just explained the ABC. It was an ABC program over 3 or 4 weeks, I think.

3.

Where— or you should explain it, you were there. Just tell us in case anyone hasn't seen it.

Yeah, it was a 3-part documentary following some kids in a school in Perth. It's a very challenging school, and they put a Year 4 program in for music when they'd never had one. And the kids got to choose a string instrument or a brass instrument, and then we just followed them over 9 months. We got to go into their homes, we followed all these different things that happened, their very big ups and downs, and it finished with a big concert at Perth Concert Hall at the end. But the power in it was the messy middle where, you know, the kids are all excited and they all open their instruments and they go, this is going to be great, and then you hear the first sound that the violin makes and it's like— it showed all that. It showed that it's not easy and it showed that it requires persistence. Yeah, I mean, interestingly, schools are using it— not the music teachers, but primary schools are using it because they, they've got a kit as well about teaching persistence and resilience. It's got nothing to do with music.

Interesting.

So it has— it's, it's, it's coming into the larger questions of what is education and what is the future of our country.

Yeah, I'm not sure if it's on iview, but check it out if it is, or YouTube or wherever. Yeah, yeah, well worth a watch. And grab the tissues for the, the end. I was Yeah, there's quite emotional moments in it when you see these poor kids from really some pretty basic backgrounds finally getting an instrument and having that first win. I think it was amazing.

Yeah. And it's not an, I wish I could share. It's really funny. I got to the end of it and I went, everyone said, oh, this is amazing what these kids can do. And I went, no, it's not. This is what kids do. And then I realized I get to see this several times a year. So I get to work in Western Sydney with really young kids who play string instruments, but they have to leave them at school on the holidays because Because it's not safe to take them home. And they make blankets for them and they wrap them up and they say goodbye and they say, I'll miss you. It's a really strong connection. That's beautiful.

A follow-up question to that. Isn't music part of what companies are looking for in creative and innovative thinkers? So should we aim at getting business more involved in music somehow?

Yeah. So making the really strong connection between music training, which is what it's called in the research, And innovation, or the skills of innovation, is the most important thing. And an example of how we're not there yet is the government did a few years ago, they did an innovation fund, which was, you know, all about innovation and how we're going to create it. Really what they were doing was funding getting science ideas commercialized, and it was missing a whole entire— and the reason why it didn't work, it hasn't worked very well, is because they miss the middle bit, which is like, what's the innovative thinking and where do you get that in your training? So I think that's part of what my work is, is to go, okay, this is music, but here's the straight line between that and an innovative economy. And I think that's where we're going to get the money and the support and the, in some cases, respect and understanding, is when we get up here and we go, it's worth this much, and they go, oh, maybe we should invest down here then.

A simple— well, I don't know if it's simple, but a quick question. By how much percentage is the brain bigger for music learners? Is that actually a thing? Do we know that?

We sort of do. So there are 2 physical parts of the brain that we can identify as size. So one's the gray matter, which is actually the squishy, disgusting stuff that you see when you see a brain. Um, one of the very earliest findings was that they had 30% more gray matter. Which is an interesting thing. It's like, well, where do you put 30% more? There's no more brain or skull. Yeah, this bit here. But what it actually means is that it's folding over on itself, it's denser. So if you think about that, having— it's, it's like, it's like having a Swedish house where everything fits together really well and you can store more stuff. It also is one of the major things that protects our brains from any diseases that attack the brain. So Alzheimer's and certain types of dementia attack the brain, but if you've got more you're sort of insulated from that. That's one statistic. There's another one which is about the white matter. So the white matter is all the connective, um, nerves that go through. Anyway, sometimes you can see them. They're called diffusion fMRIs, and they're really colorful and they look beautiful. I go by that. Um, and they are the connectivity. So more recently, because they've got better technology, they've measured also that, um, it's somewhere between 20 and 30% more white matter. That is, so more connectivity in the brain, more density in the brain. So it's a healthier brain that's more connected, and the more connected part is the neuroplasticity, and the denser part is the brain health and protection.

Right.

I hope we're all keeping up with this. It's like mind-blowing, literally mind-blowing. We've got some kind of practical questions coming through as well now, and keep your questions coming, guys. I'll do what I can to share them. For students who are forced into learning piano, do you have any suggestions to help them get over the I hate music and help them actually enjoy learning?

Yeah, it's such a— and piano is, I think, particular to that. I've noticed it's like, it's the— well, I don't know why. I listen to parents and say, why did you choose piano for your child? It's like, well, it's the hardest instrument. It's like, well, I guess maybe. Or it's the best instrument. Or it's, I read it in a book and it's And it's really interesting because I find that I get parents saying, which is the best instrument for my child? And at the moment there's no best instrument. They're all slightly different. But the more important thing is, which instrument does your child connect with? And that could be how it looks, how it sounds, how it feels. You know, if you get a kid who absolutely wants to play tuba and you chuck him on xylophone, I don't think he's going to be very happy. So it's about that. But to get that connection, they have to physically physically get onto the instruments. So that's one big practical change that we need in schools. But when it comes to piano, fascinates me because so much of the research looks at the social learning of music. Now, for piano, that in our traditional way of teaching it, it doesn't really exist. It's very individual. So how— and so they're missing out on that social— you get a buzz from being in a social group and playing a piece of music. And so a lot of teachers go, oh, well, you know, piano players can accompany. And I sort of go, yeah, but they can't accompany until they're really, really good and very confident and quite independent. So what do we do for the young kids? And I think it's the tried and true things that we have always used as teachers, which are, um, to play music that they engage with. If they have to play piano, how can it be repertoire that they actually use? Getting them to figure out how they need to learn it, having them more involved. But unfortunately, I often think— and this, this goes for other instruments as well— Sometimes it's just not the right instrument, and changing an instrument is okay. And it goes back the other way. Some kids are on a social instrument that's just not hard enough for them, so they want to go into something that's more individual and they can actually grow and change through. So it's a really tricky practical one. Um, I think we need to keep working with the research to figure that one out.

I always find it funny when you think about the instruments people choose and the personalities that they have, and every trumpet player I know are the loud, brash people. They want to make lots of noise. And the flute players are a little bit more reserved.

I know. I used to say at university, like, the flute class— I'm a clarinet player— the clarinet player, we were next to each other. So in the flute class, they always used to walk out and they're tall and elfin.

Yes, that's true.

And the clarinet class used to walk out, we're all short up, we've all got these lovely stubby fingers, we're a little bit louder and a bit ruder.

There you go. I don't know if there's research in that, but, uh, it's funny anyway.

No, there isn't, but you know, it's just observed.

So if that little taster got you inspired about Dr. Anita Collins and her work and the kinds of things that she was talking about, then make sure you grab your virtual ticket at pianopivotlive.com/virtual. That is our Piano Pivot Live virtual tickets where you can watch the whole of Anita's presentation or her interview in high def. You can also download the delegate playbook and you get access to all the other about 10 hours in total of some of the world's best piano teaching presentations all in one place that you can consume at your own pace. Rewind, fast forward, take notes in the delegate book. There's space for notes, and you get that all for just $129. So if you want to grab that, head to pianopivotlive.com/virtual if you haven't done so already. And remember that Top Music Pro members, you get half that price. You can find the information for your coupon code in our discount section inside when you log into the membership. All right, so continuing on our online teaching focus on the blog and YouTube, next week we're featuring Stephen Hughes of onlinepianostudios.com to talk about how he uses technology and online teaching to run his whole business. It's quite epic. I can't wait to introduce you to him then. I'm Tim Toppin, and you've been listening to the TopCast from topmusic.co. I'll see you next time. For more information about this episode and to find out how to enhance your own teaching, visit topmusic.co. You'll find everything you need for your studio, from lesson plans to cheat sheets, quick-win teaching ideas, and guides on how to build your teaching business. Plus, you'll be connected to a global community of the world's top music teachers. And when you're ready, join hundreds of other teachers around the world by becoming a Top Music Pro member and get access to all our bonus content and courses, including an extended cut of today's episode. And don't forget to follow topmusic.co on social media and subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to it. That's all for today. We'll see you in the studio.