How Compassionate Leaders Hold People Accountable

There is a quiet fear spreading through our workplaces that as machines become more capable, people will become more expendable, that efficiency will matter more than dignity, that in our race to build more intelligent organizations, we may create workplaces that feel less human. Today, I'm joined by Laura Berland and Evan Harrell, founders of the Center for Compassionate Leadership, For a conversation that could not be more urgent, because Laura and Evan believe we are asking the wrong question about AI. Instead of asking what technology can replace, we should be asking what it can elevate. In this episode, you'll discover why compassion is not weakness and why fear and shame may produce short-term results, but they quietly destroy trust and burn people out. You'll learn how to hold people accountable, deliver difficult feedback, and set clear boundaries without sacrificing their dignity. And you'll hear how one person, without permission or formal authority, sparked a movement that eventually transformed an entire global organization. Today's conversation is not about being nicer. It's a conversation about becoming the kind of leader Our future desperately needs. Welcome to The Flourishing Edge, the podcast where we share weekly tips on making flourishing your competitive edge. I'm Ashish Kothari, your host, and each week we'll dive deep with flourishing experts, changemakers, and executives to share best practices that can help you unlock higher performance through science-based Interventions. Let's step together into the edge of what's possible and live, work, and lead with more joy, health, love, and meaning. Hi, dear Laura and Evan. It's so wonderful to host you, the Flourishing Edge podcast. Thank you for joining us.

It's such a delight to be here.

I've been so inspired by your work, both of your work in the space of compassionate leadership. And I think it is an ever-needed way of being and leading in this age of AI, where there is so much changing. And so I want to start with this question. From your points of view, as work becomes more intelligent, what are we at the risk of losing?

You know, it just— that sort of sends chills down my spine. It's like, there's intelligence, and there's the technology. It's like, we are human. We are so human. And we've lost so much of that humanity when we show up at work already, like before AI came to dominate the conversation and the landscape.

Yeah.

So I love that this is a moment that really provides us with the contrast that allows us to talk more courageously about becoming more human because we need each other. We need each other to make this technology as effective and potent as it can be. But deep down inside, we need each other. We need to be connected in our humanity. And this is the moment to do that.

And I think that people bringing AI forward are asking a question that's just slightly off the mark. So often they're asking, what can we use AI to replace? How can we, how can we save something with AI? But what we need to be asking, because this is where the power's going to come from, what can we, how can we use AI to elevate something? What can we elevate with this incredible power we are beginning to see emerge? And if we start eliminating the human element, well, guess what? It's not going to elevate where we go next. It's just going to stagnate.

I think it's so resonant with me. Technology, I think about every technology, and AI is no different, really as a knife, right? If you think about the analogy of a knife, knife in the hand of a surgeon can save a life, in the hand of a murderer can take a life. And AI is no different. I think we really have, it's a genuine gift. If we think about it as a co-intelligence, we can really make it To help each one of us become superhuman. It can elevate our skills. It can create space to kind of help us see our biases and things that we can't. But if we don't wield it the right way, it can highly dehumanize the workplace because all of a sudden I say, Evan, I can do 4x more at 1/10 the time that you do, so why do I need you? Or why do you need so many? And I think that's a lot of the rhetoric in kind of the first almost era. I think it's changing now that I'm seeing, but I think this notion of what you just said, don't think about it as replacing, but think about it as how can we leverage it to create more of what we have, which is humans, our humanity? How can they tell humanity?

Yeah.

So what is a leadership capability from your point of view? That we need the most in this age of AI?

What we need is a leadership capability that recognizes our shared common humanity and recognizes our deep interdependence. If we don't recognize that, we're going to drive ourselves off of a cliff. If we do recognize it, not only will we avoid the things that we're all recognizing and afraid of, we will actually elevate what we can create. Our deep individualism is a little bit of a mirage, is that you hear people say, I did this, I deserve that. None of us did anything alone. We all came into the world without having done a single thing is the starting point, but you can go from there and everything that has evolved Whether it is from our ancestors or from our teachers or from our coworkers, everything is co-created. And what we need are leaders who recognize that deep connection.

You know, you remind me of these beautiful words of one of my teachers who I hold deeply, Thich Nhat Hanh, who says, we inter-are. That is reality. Desmond Tutu, Ubuntu, you are, so I am. And I think so much of the rhetoric over the years around self-reliance, self-dependence, I think often robs us of that, robs us of that connection to each other. And as you beautifully said, creates a mirage that we've done everything on ourselves and causes so much harm.

Yes.

Yes. Because then we get attached to something that is actually not sustainable. We can't do everything ourselves. We won't be able to do everything ourselves. And when we recognize that what we have created has been because we are part of a much more beautiful, bigger, greater whole, we will create more bigger, more beautiful, greater things.

And I think what I'm also recognizing is I think in a world with so much uncertainty and rapid change, it also, that way of being also disproportionately causes suffering because as leaders, I'm like, I have to figure it out. You don't. There are so many people around where we can figure it out together. 10 brains, 20 brains on a team are better than one brain trying to figure it out and hold the light for others, right? The old model of leadership is not actually working right now.

It's not only not working, it's causing more stress and harm and disconnection and dis-ease in the workplace. place and in society in general. So again, like this is a beautiful moment to sort of move the ship of leadership in a different direction than we have been living with for decades and decades. I mean, we all grew up with it, command and control, and today it no longer is not effective. It is harmful.

So I love the work you do and specifically this notion of Compassionate leadership because it originates from inter-our-ness, right? From interbeing, from recognizing that really together we are stronger. But look, the reality is there's so many leaders who still believe compassion weakens performance. Compassion is soft. Compassion is avoiding accountability. Compassion is not calling out and lowering our own expectations.

Right.

Why is that understanding of compassion so incomplete?

Well, I think part of it derives from what we've just been talking about. We've all grown up in and are swimming in the cultural waters of command and control.

Yeah.

The reality is that it's not sustainable, but guess what? Fear does work in the short run. Shame will get people to do things in the short run. But it burns them out. It destroys trust. And so what you end up creating is a dysfunctional culture that can get things done by just burning people out over and over. So what people think is, okay, if I have to give up these traditional command and control elements, I'm obviously going to have to give up something. But the reality and the evidence does not support that. If we take a different path, a path of collaboration, a path of cooperation, a path of trust, what you end up with is fabulous results for the organization while the employees flourish as well. So you don't actually have to give anything up, but you do have to go on a different path. And that requires trust. So you have to, you have to be courageous to go down this path because you're taking a little bit of risk to go trusting people where you haven't been before. But when you do that, what happens is it's like putting fertilizer on a plant. It just, it grows and it flourishes.

Yeah.

So you can still hold people accountable, but you do it in ways that understand their humanity, respect their dignity. And do it in a way that actually expresses a belief that they can improve, they can change.

Yeah.

As opposed to, well, you didn't do the job right. You need to be punished. That's the traditional form of accountability. So it's this misperception that the way we've always done it is the only way to do it. And if we move off of that, we're going to have to give up something. It's not about giving up something, but it is about going a different way and gaining in the process.

So let me, let's, let me ask you, so what is the difference, you know, for people who are still kind of scratching their head and going like, yeah, I, I hear that, but tell me the difference between compassion and just simply being nice.

So being nice will oftentimes avoid challenging conversations because nice is sweet. Nice is Pretty.

And at the core is, I want you to like me. Right. So please.

So oftentimes being nice is about something for me, not for you. Compassion is about speaking truth, but doing it in a way that's respectful, that can even be kind. And for a compassionate leader, I mean, one of the, one of the ways that it devolves is you say to someone, It's not okay for you to do this, and I believe you can do better, and I want to and will help you do better. That is compassion. But you know what? It's not very nice to say, it's not okay for you to do this. That's harsh. It's hard. It's challenging. But compassionate leaders have the courage to be willing to say things need to change.

So what you're highlighting is that we can be compassionate While delivering hard feedback or even making a difficult decision that we might need to make for the betterment of the broader group.

Yeah, definitely.

Can you describe for me what that looks like in practice?

It starts from the inside, what it looks like from the inside of the leader. And I mean, some of the neurological tools could actually scan the brain and, and tell you where that arises in the But it starts with bringing presence to the other. Simply recognize that I am here with you. It starts with a clear intention for where you want to go that is based upon what is good for the organization and good for the team and good for the participants. It then comes forward in ways that express that. Without being judgmental, without shaming, without being overly harsh, and being very clear. So it sets bright boundaries. It's not afraid to say, no, work needs to be handed in on time. You know, or we have a schedule that we follow and we have to meet the objectives. We need to get the models with No errors, whatever we want to set as the standards, so long as they're realistic and humane, recognizing that there's always errors in the system, whether it's AI or humans. So, I mean, it starts from the inside and then it flows outward in a way that expresses that internal respect for each of us.

It really involves being Very tuned into the inner landscape that you're showing up with as you're about to have a very difficult conversation and to really, Evan used the word presence, to be grounded and clear and centered so that the nature of the conversation can happen in what, you know, we love to call this Goldilocks zone of the window of tolerance. So that you're not showing up in a way where you're already activated or angry or anxious or frustrated, but you're showing up with a neutral presence that allows you to really listen to the other person so that the other person can actually feel what's happening within you, that you're not there to rap them on the head, that you're there to co-create a solution in a difficult situation, that you respect what they've tried or done, and that you together look for ways to create a better outcome. When people can feel that you're not there to threaten or hammer them, it's a completely different conversation.

Yeah.

And Ashish, let me just add one thing, because I think you would recognize this because you have been inside many, many companies and you've witnessed the way teams work, the way organizations and leadership work. And you can see it the way people speak to each other, the way people interact, whether they're actually avoiding each other, staying in their space, or whether they're connecting and smiling and actually engaging in ways that reflect engagement.

Yeah. I think, you know, it's, it's, you're pointing to, you're pointing to 2 important things to name. I think number one, what you're highlighting is to be, to practice, we have to do it first of all, from a place of a regulated nervous system grounded within with an open heart, right? To recognize that there is suffering, things aren't going well, I'm suffering, and so might be the other person. Recognizing that we, in the end, all want to achieve and grow and do good work, right? So we ground ourselves. We're not doing it from a place of anger or frustration.

Mm-hmm.

We are doing it by opening our hearts to alleviate suffering. And the third is that we are doing it with a sense of curiosity versus judgment around the fact that we are not getting to where we need to go. And so being really curious about what's missing. But the reality is most people don't do feedback from that place. They're doing it because they're upset, they're angry, they're carrying that energy in, which means their hearts are closed, their minds have a story. And their ego's telling me, I'm right, you're wrong. And 3, you're not listening to understand. You're just, you've already decided you're the judge, jury, executioner. You suck and you need to actually do this right, or I'm going to let get, you know, get rid of you.

Beautifully said.

And very little is actually possible from that versus the other way where we still wanna have it, but we're gonna practice those 3 elements together.

Yeah. Right on.

So in our conversations, you highlighted a beautiful story where you worked with the chief medical officer who realized that the medical residents were not consistently recognizing the importance of compassion and the impact that it was having. So tell us a little bit about that story and what was happening and what were some of the changes?

Sure.

That were made and what was the result of it?

So we love this story for many reasons because it does illustrate the power of compassionate leadership. And it also is evidence of what a single leader at a C-level can do if they make some simple choices. So this chief medical officer who who has been through our program, he's the chief medical officer within a major large hospital network, observed in their data that there was, were challenges with the way the residents were interacting with both staff and patients. And he introduced a single question into the resident interview process ahead of the resident match that was designed to try to gauge their capacity for compassion, not whether they were compassionate or not, but what sort of capacity they might have. And over a period of years, because, you know, these resident classes come in and are usually in the hospital for 2 to 3, 4 years, the entire culture of the resident program shifted. And they can see it in their data. And they have now, in terms of their hospital rankings, have seen an elevation in their, their hospital rankings. So it was a simple, small change with one question introduced into the hiring routine. And by applying it over a period of time, made a major change in the organization. And this is really powerful because the biggest body of research around the power of compassion and leadership is within healthcare. People heal faster when they are treated with compassion. Staff are much easier to burn out when they are not treated with compassion. So it was one simple change that one person could make. And it—

What was the question?

The question was, name a time when you encountered compassion with a patient. What was it and how did it unfold? So basically asking them, you know, what do you think compassion is? But asking it in a narrower context.

And the beauty too is that it, it not only changed the culture within the medical staff or the doctor level of medical staff, it rippled very directly into the nursing staff, into the support staff, and throughout the entire culture. of the organization, which is how the hospital ranking metric really made a huge difference because you could feel it when you walked in the door of the hospital. You know, from the very first moment a receptionist greeted you at the entrance, that's how profound the change swept through an entire organization.

Can you, for our guests, ask that question again?

Name a time you encountered compassion with a patient. How did it arise and what was your experience?

I can see versions of that question in every workplace.

Absolutely.

Right. In any setting, at schools, in, in, in— wow. It's a beautiful question.

And he used compassion very specifically, and it can be asked in many, many ways because many of the elements that we see contributing to compassion involve things you've already named, courage, curiosity, open-heartedness. So you could ask people, you know, when did, when were you curious at work and where did that curiosity lead? If, you know, there are just so many ways you can do that, but it refocuses on the human element.

So I'm curious about this case and I want to dig into it a little bit. Because residents are the lowest on the totem pole, at least in the physician world. Most medical settings also operate with a 2-class society of your staff or you're a doctor, and then you have nurses and et cetera, et cetera. But in the body even of practitioners, residents are the lowest in the totem pole. What I'm curious about is when you describe when this medical officer saw that this That we were not recognizing the importance of compassion. Everybody else, the senior residents, the doctors, the nurses, all of that didn't change. You just changed people who were coming in. I would've thought he would've started at the top around really the leaders whose actions every day affect. So I'm just curious how that folded and how actually you can, because what you're highlighting is you actually can start from the bottom. You don't need to start from the top.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I think that's a really powerful observation that you start with where you are and the domain of your influence and your capacity to insert these kinds of tweaks to the system. So the easiest tweak for him was not to influence his peers at the C-level, although now they're all very influenced by his actions. But he could carry on this change within his domain of hiring, even though it affected these, as you mentioned, the poor residents who are the lowest people on the medical totem pole and who work, you know, like insane hours and have the hardest jobs that anyone can imagine. But it's a beautiful way of looking at what can I do in my organization? Maybe I don't influence the senior people. Maybe I influence a small team. Maybe I am that receptionist at the front desk. And I, as an individual, have the power to insert compassion into all of my actions every day. And what change does that affect in me? And what change does that bring forward in the People that I interact with or who are touched by a shift, maybe they just witness what I do. Maybe they are in direct receipt of what I do, or maybe they can then shift something in their realm because they get that feeling and upliftment from a change in behavior. Think about a receptionist that fought, you know, that smiles at you, or a postal worker or a grocery person, or A barista. You know, those small human interactions, we tend to just flash by them, but they are so full of potential for changing the way that we can be with each other, getting back to interbeing. And, you know, we are all connected. And if we just open up the capacity that we have to be human with each other, wherever we are in the organization and whatever we're doing, it can profoundly I think, and what you're also highlighting through that, and you're kind of reminding me, Laura, is emotions are contagious.

Our actions are contagious. So I think start with what you can affect, point number one, very well taken, right? Don't try and change your peers or that massive system that has worked in a particular way. Start with what you can change. And second, believe That if you are actually, even if you change one person, that one person's actions will ripple through. Just like actions of cruelty can ripple through, so can actions of kindness and compassion can ripple through. And so what you're inviting to also is hope and agency that we all have to transform our workplaces versus feel like a victim and say, oh, There is no space for compassion in my organization. Have you seen my leaders? And what you are challenging is to say, actually, no. Yes, you can make a difference. Start with what you control and who you are being in the world.

And research is very clear that that ripple impact that you described will typically go out at least 3 degrees of contact. And so, there's this multiplicative power that goes on. And you don't even realize it because by the time it's gone that second and third degree of contact, you don't know where it's going, but it's going everywhere.

This conversation is brought to you by Happiness Squad, where we help leaders build new mindsets, new habits, and transform their ways of working to truly flourish. If you are ready to unleash the untapped human potential in your organization, and operate at your best, come visit us at happinesssquad.com and start your journey today. You had another powerful story around agency and how one individual can create a network that influences everything. So bring to life the story of the large multinational NGO that was experiencing burnout, stress, and a lot of resistance from entrenched management on changing And yet this one individual made a massive change that changed everything. Just tell that story.

Yes, indeed. I mean, just sort of to highlight what we just said, from wherever you are in the organization, this person at the time was in middle management, had a sphere of influence that was quite limited, but noticed the depth of suffering Mm-hmm. Amongst her colleagues. There was so much stress that everybody was trying to do too much without, you know, sufficient resources. So she started gathering small groups of colleagues who needed to be together to reflect and to be in community so that they could share their stories, so that they could unload, so that they had a safe place to practice a dialogue around compassion, some practices around compassion. So she started meetings, convening these small meetings. Literally, her boss was not really keen to this. So he said, you know, when I'm out, you can use my office, but don't tell anybody. So she started these gathering, these small groups and regularizing these meetings and people came. And that's just such a powerful example. example of creating, you know, starting to create a network. And not everybody is going to show up and say, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed. But once someone does that and invites others in to commune around the shared suffering, it's really powerful and potent. And not that they would sit in their suffering, but they would look for ways to support each other, to build trust, To create this sense of safety and connection and belonging that elevates, that moves us away from going deeper into burnout, but to have a road back to feeling confident and have agency and trust and be able to ripple out into the system. So slowly, this kept rippling over a period of time. The CEO caught wind of what was going on. And she said, You know, what's happening here and why is this making people more engaged and more committed, even though the conditions were really difficult at the time? And they invited us to train hundreds of leaders across multiple countries to bring practices in that would support wellbeing and support the alleviation of this stress and heaviness. And eventually the CEO, as they were redoing their strategic plan, inserted in a 5-pillar plan, 2 of the pillars ended up reflecting the need for compassion, one in a wellbeing of employee pillar and one in the human resources pillar.

HR, the hiring pillar.

The hiring pillar, back to our first point.

It's a very practical application of how do we hire the best people? How do we make sure our people are Flourishing? And the answer in this case was, is compassion.

So it was not only a beautiful example of creating a network and the power of network and ripple effect and all that we've talked about, it's also a beautiful example of how this brave, courageous individual expanded their role, you know, without permission per se, just because—

Without, and without authority.

Without authority. Exactly. You know, role-making, role-making. And now here we are a couple of years later. She's actually been promoted several times, is at the C-level, making better decisions for the whole organization from a power of a different level of authority. So it's, it's really a lovely full-circle moment as she took this latest role at the senior level. Because of these deep-seated, you know, there was so much misalignment in her, and this was her way of bringing more alignment to her internal landscape and into the organizational landscape.

I love it. And it speaks to the power of the framework that you all teach, right? Which is, there is one part which is about leading with compassion. And then there is a second part, which is about leading for compassion. So explain the difference to our listeners between these 2 kind of levers and how they can actually bring that into their workplaces.

Sure. So we know many, many, in fact, if you look in most organizations, they're filled with compassionate individuals. But yet the workplace may still stink. So being a compassionate individual in a system that is not, isn't sufficient. The framework of leading with and for compassion comes from Monica Worline and Jane Dutton, who have created the social architecture framework that we embrace. Leading with compassion is when, as an individual leader, your individual interactions with others are compassionate. You're acting compassionate on an individual basis. When, when you and I, Ashish, interact, I'm interacting with you compassionately. But if we're operating in a system that is focused on other aspects, that gets crushed right away. And this is where Leading for Compassion comes in. It's important to be able to create the environment where Anyone who wants to lead with compassion is supported in that. And in fact, people are directed and trained and shown how to lead with compassion. And so that cultural water that we're swimming in, instead of being this command and control burnout-inducing water, becomes a different framework. And it's that framework where organizations get results and people flourish.

So I love their work, Jane and Monica's, and they talk about these 4 distinct elements in this social architecture, right? Roles, routines, networks, culture. Walk us through a little bit of these to say, if somebody wanted to actually create an environment where they were leading for compassion, what would be some of the changes that they would make as they thought about the broader architecture of the organization?

So a deep bow to our common friends and colleagues, Monica Werlein and Jane Dutton. I mean, their work has been truly transformational, not just for, for us, but for the, the way we help spread this approach to creating more compassionate organizations. So first and foremost, put on your compassion lenses, you know, change the color of the lenses of what you see and do and how you notice where there's suffering within an organization. And once you do that, it's so rich that there are— they have defined for us these 4 levers: roles, routines, network, and culture. If we look at this fabric of everyday life within organizations through these 4 domains, and we have our compassion lenses on, we can see so quickly So many ways in which infusing a little compassion here and a little consideration there and a little kindness over here and a little trust and safety and belonging over there can really ripple through and create massive change. And it may start very small. So for roles, for example, in the case study we just shared, this was somebody who saw that within her role, Compassion wasn't a formal part of her job description, but she needed to bring compassion forward for her own wellbeing and for the wellbeing of others. And there are many other places.

And I would say to everyone listening today, you can shape your role this week to bring more compassion. One of the things that we do is we often ask people to give us their ideas of roles and the The roles that often come up as people are thinking about compassionate leadership is coaches, mentors, all of these nurturing compassion roles, but they're also the roles of the boundary setter, the disciplinarian, all of the things that we've talked about earlier around difficult conversations. So I would challenge everyone here to set a boundary this week with kindness, With generosity, with the recognition of the dignity of the other. And what you'll find is you'll become a more effective leader and you'll gain the respect and trust of everyone else as well, because they will see that you are working hard to make sure that the right thing gets done, even when it's hard. So that's a, that's a way you can bring more compassion into your role in a way that might be counterintuitive.

Mm-hmm.

Set a boundary this week that you've been Avoiding.

Yeah. And routines are the simple work that we all do on an interdependent basis. We all have routines within our organization. And again, if you just put on the lenses and look at the existing routines, you're not trying to, you know, go from black to white or white to black overnight, but you're looking for places where you can insert small disruptions to the existing framework and insert a more compassionate approach. And these small moves, this is what I really honor so deeply about this social architecture framework. When we make small moves within any of these areas, it can have outsized impact.

The interview question we gave earlier was the introduction Into a routine. And I would, I would tell everyone here, there's something you can do in your meetings that will help you notice suffering better. Introduce this prompt. If you're looking for a prompt to start a meeting, ask people, tell me this week, one way that you can be supported or one way that you can be challenged. What you do is you give permission to people to start talking about The need for support or the places at their growth edges. And that's a powerful way to increase the effectiveness of teams.

Tell me one way you would like this week to be supported or challenged.

Yes.

Simple.

A beautiful question for a meeting.

Yeah. And people can go as deeply or as, you know, non— as shallow as they want. You allow people to answer that in whatever way is most comfortable to them. But as, as you ask it, people begin to recognize that, oh, I can actually say where I need support without people thinking I'm weak.

Yeah. Let's talk about networks.

Kind of my favorite. Monica might say she has a different favorite child. My favorite child are networks. You know, in the example of one person starting to create a small gathering of colleagues from different parts of the organization, cross-functional, or you could strengthen the network that you already have in place. You want to think about networks as the roadways for connection and trust and ways that we have, you know, just as in the real world, there's like a dirt road. I can think of many examples with You know, that awkward moment when you have to call a partner or a colleague in a different department and you're like, ah, you don't know me, but could you do this for me? You know, versus you have an existing relationship, there's a sense of trust and respect for each other. And that gets built over time, not necessarily from the point of being transactional in the connection. But in the basic human need to be connected and to, to relish that human connection and to look and reflect for each other, we are both human. We deserve respect. We support each other in our common humanity. And one way to do that is to go out and just explore, be curious about somebody in your organization or in your partner network. Or in your community that you want to develop a high-quality connection with. It's like you go first. We often say compassionate leaders go first. You have to put yourself out there. You need a little courage maybe to get over the hurdle if it's not your natural inclination to be an extrovert and go make a connection that doesn't have a specific purpose in the moment, but it's just a human connection. And our capacity to build networks is so limited because we're sitting in front of our machines all day and we're not in the world making human dialogue and connection. It's a very powerful element of the social arc.

And I think we have to start by creating space on our calendars rather than be stuck in back-to-back meetings.

Yeah.

Indeed.

Right? And actually replace a bunch of things and add at least 15, 30 minutes where we are explicitly creating connections and expanding our networks and starting by taking action ourselves.

Yeah.

Yes.

Love that.

The final element of the architecture is culture. Share a little bit about how you've seen repeated behaviors become beliefs and transform organizations.

We don't have a small act to change the culture. The culture is going to result from the things you're doing in your roles, in your routines, in your networks. The culture is the result of that. The one thing that you can do is recognize what are the expressed cultural elements and ask yourself every day, am I living these? Because we can put culture up on the wall in beautiful phrases, but if our actions are not in alignment with that, it's counterproductive. So the one thing that we would encourage people to do is simply challenge themselves. Am I living in alignment with what our stated cultural and our stated values are? But the culture is going to move if you're focused on these other small moves that we've described in roles, routines, networks.

And it's a very powerful distinction, Evan, because most people think about starting cultural transformations top-down with this massive 1, 2, 3 things. But what you are highlighting is cultural transformations don't happen through 1 or 2 micro or mega moves. They actually happen from 1,000 Yes. Or what people activate through roles, through what they do every day, through routines and networks, how we support and amplify. Do that, culture will change.

Yes. And there's a cycle there. And the reason it doesn't work when you just make a declaration from above is those declarations don't change those micro-actions. It's not enough to embrace them, to express them, To name them. It actually requires behavior change on the part of everyone. And so you need both. You need the support at the top. You need the behavior change from the individuals. And when it does, it becomes a positive cycle.

So you've given us a lot in this conversation. As we come to a closure, for a leader listening who says, okay, I'm open to trying this. You've shared a lot already, but what might be 3 practical moves you invite leaders to make this week? They listen to this, go do these 3 things today that would help them lead with and lead for compassion.

So I hope we've already named them. Go start a meeting and ask people how they can be supported, Or challenged. It doesn't have to be in a meeting. It can be a one-on-one. It can be when you greet someone in the morning. In, in a routine, go do something that's challenging, but actually is required of you as a leader. So go set a boundary, but do it with kindness and respect and treating the other person with dignity. And third, Reach out to somebody who's not in your network for no reason at all, other than to make a human connection that's vital, that's mutual, that respects, you know, their, uh, them with positive regard.

Do all of that by putting your compassion lenses on and really noticing a different way of showing up and where your opportunities are for bringing more compassion into The dialogue.

And all of a sudden you're connecting to people on deeper levels, on levels that are aligned with all of our experience. And it just, you know, people feel that. People feel seen. They feel heard. There's nothing better than that.

Yeah.

Evan, Laura, thank you so much for the powerful work that you're doing to create more compassionate leaders in the work. You both are a big gift to me, our friendship. I'm excited to host you all here in the next month and bringing your thinking to about 20 of our local HR leaders who really are creating environments where compassion thrives. And I'm sure you'll learn from them and they'll have a chance to learn, and you'll leave with 20 new connections of people who you don't know. And for our listeners, if you are interested, we'll have this in our show notes. But Laura and Evan run certification programs around where you, as individuals, can learn these skills and start to be the agents of change you always wanted to be, but never felt you had the permission to do. Consider this your permission. You can make the change. Those ripple effects will go through the organizations. And by the way, you will do it if you do it the right way. Your work will result in higher performance, but it'll result in higher performance because you're amplifying the humanity and the ability of people around you rather than burning them out. Thank you.

Thank you, Ashish. What a pleasure to be with you. And thank you for this delightful invitation. The more we can share and talk about these good works, the better. Really honoring your work as well. How powerful it is to bring it into organizations.

Thank you both.

Thank you.

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