The Company Putting A Score On Your Life - EP 28 Dugal Bain-Kim

You are more massive than I had expected from the photos. Have you been doing extra lifting or have you been in this state for some time?

I actually used to be significantly bigger. This is being like trying to maintain and hang on mode.

Okay.

40 years old.

I must have been just seeing like shots from the shoulders up or something. Yeah. I was like, damn, dude's rolling in. Well, here, I'll set us up for success.

Okay.

Or I'll try.

Let's do it.

Dougalbain Kim, thank you for joining us. Um, we've never met before, so this is a treat for me, at least. Um, you— we're going to get into your background and everything, but So people know you're the co-founder and CEO of Life Force. I think it's safe to describe it as a longevity human health company, and we'll get into what it does. You, your background is a bit of business and management consulting and things like that before you, before you got here. But do I have the basics right so far?

Yeah, that sounds great. Thanks for having me on. I love the show. Glad to be here. Awesome.

Um, just before we kick off, I'll just mention as always that the show is sponsored by E1 Ventures, the finest venture capital company in the land. Um, thank you, E1. All right, well, you are near and dear to my heart already because you're Australian and my mom is Australian.

Oh, that's cool. Where's she from?

She's from Sydney. Um, which I think is where you're from?

I'm from Brisbane.

You're from Brisbane.

About an hour north of Sydney, but We all know each other out there anyhow.

Yeah. So I'm half Aussie. I used to go there twice a year every year when I was growing up, spent tons of time there. Most of my family was much larger on the Aussie side. So yeah. So I've— it's near and dear to my heart.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Getting along already.

And you, you sounded like the typical Aussie type. I mean, tons of sport growing up, outdoors, all that.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I, I loved growing up in Australia. I was there until my early 20s, and, um, yeah, I think it's been, uh, it's been something that I've always kind of looked back on around that outdoors experience and pretty health-conscious sort of, sort of country. And, um, have a lot of friends there and love to get back there and bring my daughters back there as they get older.

It's— I don't know if, like, people who haven't been there fully appreciate, it's just like afternoon weekends, just everybody is outside, or at least that's what it used to be like when I— I go less often the last decade than I used to, but I don't know, like too many other cultures that are so sport-forward and outdoor-forward.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it is definitely something you grow up with is just, just sort of core to what it means to live a good life is to be outdoors and be active and get involved in things and You know, if you're down on Bondi Beach at 5 a.m. in the morning, any day of the week, it's going to be packed with people doing all sorts of things. Yeah, it's a, it's a pretty lucky place in that way.

Yeah, I love it. My parents ended up living by Manly Beach and yes, exactly what you said would transpire every, every day. Well, I want to— I mean, there's a— I do want to do a little bit more on your background, but I also want to explain Life Force to people quickly just to let them know where we're heading on some of this conversation. I'll take a crack again and then you can, you can tell me if I've gone astray. But, you know, you mentioned it's in the longevity realm. We clearly have a number of companies that have popped up over the last decade to try and help people live healthier lives. And we have all these new tests coming, things, blood tests, things to measure your, your clocks, your, your aging speed, all kinds of tests. And at this kind of consumer level, it seemed like you guys are taking advantage of that and then adding a lot of stuff around it to help people make sense of the data that they might be getting. I saw— let's start here, if it makes sense, which is this struck me as different to some of the things that I've read about in the past, which is you actually send a phlebotomist to people's house to go collect this initial sample. And so tell me what Life Force does and does it like kind of begin with this blood sample.

Yeah, absolutely. So Life Force is the largest longevity medicine platform in the US. So we started building the company about 4 years ago when even the term longevity was still pretty niche. And it's been wild to see how quickly that's become mainstream. And it's sort of at the point now where longevity honestly means everything and nothing. I saw a protein powder the other day that was just a protein powder last month, and now it's a longevity powder. So it's sort of this really exciting but kind of chaotic stage for the category as well, where I think so many people, both consumers and entrepreneurs, are excited by this idea of people taking better control of their health. But it's also very fragmented and a lot of stuff going on that can be confusing for people to know how to do it the right way. So the way we approached the category, you know, even 4 years ago when we started building, was to think about what would it be like to create a single, fully clinically integrated solution that pulls together all of these different things you need to manage your body the right way. So the diagnostics, the doctors, the coaches, supplements, pharmaceuticals, wrap it all in a good, good convenient experience and land it at about the price of a gym membership. And we felt like if we could do that, then we would accelerate and make more accessible this idea of having a much more proactive health manager, you know, really through the middle decades of life primarily.

And this is one of the big reasons I wanted to have you on is, yeah, I feel like consumers are getting bombarded by this stuff and it's almost impossible to tell what's real. We were talking about it before the show. Anyone who's followed my work knows I've covered Bryan Johnson for a long time. I think people are divided on, on him and whether what he's doing is real or not real. There's, there's a jillion, it feels like, of these, these how old are you actually in your body tests.

Telomere biology.

Yeah. Looking at telomeres and things like that and unless you're really paying attention, you know, those are based on these clocks that the, the science is real, but it's, it's, it differs depending on how you, you structure your clock and, and you don't really— once it gets to the consumer-facing end, you sort of have— unless you're really digging, you have no idea what they're using to come up with this number. And so, so yeah, I feel like this moment's exciting but also overwhelming for people. So walk us through, walk us through the basics of what— I go sign up today, what would happen?

For sure, yeah. So you come to mylifeforce.com, you sign up for membership, and the first thing we do is to send a phlebotomist out to your house, your office, or your hotel room. We've done this everywhere across the whole country, and we do that so that we can obviously create a convenient experience that's more likely for people to actually do. But it also allows us to do a full blood draw so we can look at a really comprehensive set of biomarkers initially. So we're looking at the 70 biomarkers that really are most important for what we define as, as the pillars of longevity in our model, which is propensity to sustain your quality of life, uh, reducing your risk of dying early, and then moderating your speed of cellular aging as well. So everything we, we're doing, we're analyzing, we're offering comes back to, comes back to those pillars. So we do the, do the blood draw and then, um, you're integrating any wearables that you have directly into the platform as well. And then you're filling out a really comprehensive intake. It's about 100 questions that goes well below, well beyond, you know, all the basics around health history to also understand your home life, your work life, your future goals, you know, all of that context that in an ideal world you would want the partner that's helping to manage your health to really understand about you. And we analyze that through first a proprietary technology that's calculating a metric called the Life Score. So the Life Score we created with Professor Kurt Hong from USC School of Gerontology, and it's a credit score for your health. And this was really because as we spoke to our members, we didn't launch with the Life Score, but we found that people were really missing that much more simplified, aggregated understanding of how healthy they are and what way they headed. So that's why we created this metric. And then underneath that, we're actually helping you understand those 3 pillars I described. And all the underlying biomarkers. And then our clinicians actually engage with that data further. So we have longevity medicine clinicians across the whole country working directly with members. They're in there doing the further interpretation, really helping to understand what are the couple of priorities that we want to get you started on for the next, for the next few months. And then from there, you set up a telehealth consult to go over that for about 45 minutes. Coming out of that, you should be clear on here are your goals for the next quarter, here are the strategies we're going to use to, to pursue them. And then, um, in, in terms of the lifestyle strategy side of this, uh, you're also matched with a health coach from our team to work with as much as you want. And in 3 months' time, we do the retest, and it gets you into this quarterly cadence of goal-strategy-feedback loop to help us understand how your body responds, or if we've got something sorted out, move on to the next goal.

Okay, I've got loads of questions. Is the 3 months every 3 months all the time?

Every 3 months it is.

Okay, is So for the Life Score, is that what I was talking about? Is it ultimately a clock test or there's more to it than that?

It, it's not actually biological age. So we use Morgan Levine's framework for calculating biological age, but that's one of the three pillars that are rolling up into the Life Score. And it's really interesting actually, because to your point, we often see people mistake biological age for how are they really doing holistically across their health. Whereas in reality you could be doing well on biological age, but still have other things you really need to pay attention to as well. So it's a piece of the puzzle, but it's not the full snapshot of, of, of your health and how you're tracking. So that's how we think about it. You know, it's, it's one of the pillars around— we want to moderate cellular aging, but we also want to work with you on the conditions likely to take you out prematurely, the things likely to affect your quality of life. And all of that rolls up into the Life Score, uh, and that's a score out of 100, and we want to get you above 85.

I saw that. Yeah. Okay, what percentage of people that do the test are 85 or higher on the first time they take it?

Very few. The average score when people arrive is in the high 60s, low 70s.

Okay. And how is this like exponential? How bad is that? Is it logarithmic or—

No, that is, you know, to put it in context another way, when we look at the underlying biomarkers of the population when they arrive, 26% of biomarkers are out of the optimal range.

Okay.

So that's kind of helping you translate that Life Score down to under the hood. What's happening on the biomarkers that matter.

And so like, what might I get back? Say, say I take it and, and you're getting the score in the 60s, and versus going to the doctor for your physical and they're telling you, oh, your cholesterol is high, um, you know, your blood sugar is high, what, what would I be seeing that's different to that annual physical?

Yeah, it's different in a couple of ways. It's different in terms of what we are measuring, just the breadth of what we're measuring and how leading edge the, the biomarkers are versus traditional primary care. But it's also different in the bar that we are holding as we interpret that information. So to use a couple of examples, then take something like vitamin D, which is very straightforward. Everyone's had a vitamin D test. I myself was, you know, getting annual physicals for a decade, and my vitamin D level was at 31, 32, which is marginally above a clinically diagnosable vitamin D deficiency. And because it was marginally above, that was never discussed with me as an opportunity for improvement. In reality, most people function their best and feel their best in the 50s and 60s for vitamin D. And this is, you know, a well, well-established sort of goal metric if you want to be in good health versus just not in very poor health. So for the same biomarker, that's showing you different ways of interpreting the result. And once you take a longevity lens to it, then you will be more proactive and you will build a different program for someone if you're, you're trying to move them to good health versus just keep them out of the red zone. Another example, you take a biomarker like ApoB, which is now becoming, you know, much more well understood as a more effective marker for cardiovascular risk than a standard cholesterol panel. That's something that just isn't included in most primary care panels. So what we're doing is both testing more things and more leading-edge things, but also holding a higher bar for where we want to get you to in those things that actually matter.

And so you're saying this is based on Morgan Levine, her, she has a, she has, she's put numbers around this stuff.

She, yeah. So she, she has a methodology around biological age that pulls primarily from organ health, inflammation, a couple of other factors as well.

And again, I mean like this is a tricky part because people have different formulas. How do we know that what she's doing, you, how do you know that you're actually getting good results.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, it's very— it is very confusing and it's very, very noisy. And it's also often, uh, what we see is there's a bit of a phenomenon here around people wanting to sort of mow the front lawn while the house is on fire, as in wanting to, uh, engage in things that are quite niche and, you know, where there's a lot of nuance involved in interpreting the results, when actually when we look at their results and take a step back, they're pre-diabetic or they have a pretty clear hormone imbalance or they're DHEA deficient. So, you know, things that are going to have the, the biggest impact on how they feel and how long they're likely to live versus some of these other things which are really interesting and sort of catch people's imagination but aren't actually going to be the most important things for determining how well the rest of their lives plays out.

So there's these broad, like, clear major health metrics that you guys are going to pull out simply by doing a proper blood draw, looking at at more metrics than you're going to see in your annual physical. And then you're sort of saying, once we take care of the big stuff, then maybe we'll drill in on some of these other bits where, um, where maybe there's like a little more debate around the science, or, or is it— is that—

yeah, I think it's actually a blend of— and this is where our approach to longevity medicine I think differs to traditional preventative health, for example, where if there's something you're motivated to work on, great, let's do— let's work on that as much, as much as we can, right? So let's take that motivation motivation and actually engage around that with you. And, and that's often what drives good program adherence, good retention, and kind of earns the right for us to also draw your attention to other things you need to be working on at the same time. So if you show up and it's energy levels, it's the, that's the main thing that's really bothering you and you want, you want to work on, we're absolutely going to work on that with you. But oh, by the way, in analyzing your, your data, you're also at elevated risk of Alzheimer's and dementia. Let's include that as the second goal in your program and tackle those two things together. So it's a bit of a different orientation, I think, certainly than traditional healthcare where a lot of those quality of life things are not super well acknowledged or addressed and they're sort of treated as not as serious. But we've definitely found that they're actually the keys to earning this relationship to work on all kinds of things with you over time. I mean, what you guys—

I was reading over everything you guys were doing last night. I was like, oh, I guess in an ideal world, I mean, this is what your doctor would do with you. But clearly doctors don't have a lot of time. Probably some of this is more expensive than what your insurance is typically. But yeah, I don't know. It's kind of— it's like, oh, this is what everyone should be getting, right? I mean, you know, in a perfect world, I suppose.

Yeah. And effectively we end up in that primary position for our members where we have the most data, the most relationship. We're sort of the longitudinal health manager. And if you rewind to the the value prop of primary care in the '50s and '60s, it was, it was meant to be more of those things, but it's obviously not now. It's, it's, it's very transactional. It's very narrow. It's very reactive. Um, not because of the fault of the, of the clinicians who are working super hard in that model, but just because of the structural handicaps around how much time they can spend, how much data they have available, what they get paid for and don't get paid for. So I think part of what's behind this huge boom in longevity that we're talking about is a craving that people have to have that sort of different sort of health management solution. And whether they go to the supplement landscape to try and find that, whether they go the testing landscape, whether they work with a full-stack solution like us, I think a lot of it is traced back from that sense of, I'm in a certain stage of life, I want to be functioning as well as I can. I don't want to get taken out by something that surprises me. And I want to make sure that I'm tracking for the future, where do I go to get those goals handled properly?

And, and I don't know if these numbers are right because I saw it, it was the internet and you never know what the internet is going to tell you. But I mean, it looked like $350-ish for the first blood draw and analysis, and then like $120 a month.

Yeah, so $350 for month 1 and then $149 a month after that.

After that. And so, so you do this, and when you get the blood drawn, you have this initial consultation. That's with a, with a doctor, or who, who is that?

Yes, it's with one of our clinicians. So, so, um, we think it's important to have clinicians properly integrated. They're our clinicians on our team, so it's the same team using the same data set, working hands-on with members. Um, we just find that's really important for explaining the program, building the best program, but also driving that accountability to stay on track.

And how do you, how does that scale? I mean, what if 100,000 people are signing up for the service?

That's probably the biggest surprise from my perspective operationally since we launched is that what we've realized is just like there's this explosion happening on the demand side of this category. So more and more consumers wanting to, you know, wanting to do something proactive about their bodies. There's a similar sort of thing playing out on the supply side with so many clinicians wanting to move into this style of medicine as well. So whether that's primary care clinicians or folks from different specialties, the opportunity to practice medicine in the way that a lot of people went to medical school to do with great data set, engaged people proactively versus reactively. There's this whole groundswell of folks who are taking their careers in this direction as well. So that, that's actually been a real positive surprise for us in terms of how many excellent clinicians are applying to work at Life Force and other solutions in the space. And I think we'll see that continue. We've hired fewer than 2.7% of MDs who've applied to work at Life Force.

Okay. And I imagine, I mean, you do this initial test and then some of the, you know, even, even Brian with all the, like everything that he does, I mean, you know, he'll tell you it's like sleep more, eat better, get exercise. You, I imagine some of that is coming back in the first bucket of results is like, people are taking this test is you're overweight, let's focus on, on that. Um, yeah, I just always wonder how many levers there are to pull on even when you get this rich set of data back.

Yeah, I think we've learned a lot around, um, not just sort of how to identify the right goal, but how to communicate that to members as well, where, you know, people are motivated in different ways. And as we think about The way we present the data, the way we build the user experience. Some people, for example, love competing against this life score concept and get me above 85 and keep me there.

Like I could, I could see that, that, that's a smart move because I, yeah, that's what I would focus on.

Yeah. So some people are wired that way. Other people, other people are wired around social comparisons. So they want to know how are they doing against other guys who are 40 who live in, in California. You know, other people, it's more around connecting to sort of deeper things in their lives, being around for their kids, being a better spouse. So there's, there's multiple different things we weave into the experience because it's not— to your point, you know, often, often it's things that are sort of fundamental, but the trick is how do you break through in someone's mindset around why that thing is important and, and give them confidence that they can actually improve on it as well.

Yeah. Okay. And when I, you know, when I was teeing around— all right, so we've got— I just bring up Brian because I got to know the best. I mean, you've got his program, right? People can, can eat his food. Um, he doesn't make a ton, I don't think, of his own tests, but he, he puts up the tests that he takes and you, you can order your blood panels and things like that. And I think he is kind of co-branding. I mean, then there's companies like Functional Health. I think there's one called Vitae, which I think is focused more on women.

How do you—

yeah, when you look out at this landscape, how do you see yourself as different? What's the main difference between some of these different programs?

Yeah, I think the main difference is whether a solution is focused on sort of one piece of the puzzle or whether they're a more comprehensive solution. So obviously we've taken the approach of being full stack, clinically integrated. Wanting to integrate the testing and the interventions and the clinicians. So it's kind of technology plus human and then both testing and interventions at the same time. So that's, that's one approach and there's a set of companies going that way. There's other companies that are more narrowly focused on a piece of that. So, you know, whether it's testing like Function or Insight Tracker or a particular clinical condition like Midi Health in menopause or, you know, some other solutions that are focused on one need state. I think that's a useful framework for thinking about what the category looks like. I think this step from giving people data to actually practicing longevity medicine is a pretty important distinction as well. It's a whole different ballgame operationally and regulatory and everything you can imagine to move from, you know, effectively, here's your bank account to, we're going to go and place the trades to build your portfolio and, and grow the bank of bank account over time. So, um, in terms of sort of national platforms that are practicing longevity medicine, there are not too many of those around, but you do find smaller brick-and-mortar concierge clinics in, you know, in, in lots of different states that are doing a version of that at smaller scale.

Yeah, yeah. I'm generally shocked. I mean, I've had a Fitbit, I think, for I don't know, maybe like 12 years or something like that, a decade. And, you know, I mean, it's great like week to week, but it's astonishing to me that there is no— I've been sucking all this data up for all this time and there's just like almost no analysis of it. It doesn't connect to like anything my doctor gets. And, and I, it's just like baffling to me. I've seen, I've seen the, You know, Microsoft, I remember they had like HealthVault for a while and you could put in your, your records. It seemed actually just like a record keeping kind of service for your medical stuff. I was sort of shocked that the, especially the big tech companies that already have so much data they could get from you, you know, Fitbit's owned by Google. It's crazy to me that we're in 2025 and yeah, So many people have these things and nobody seems to be doing anything with this information.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think that, I mean, to use a wearables example, we, this is, this is something we turned on about 8 months now where we now encourage our members to integrate their wearables directly into the platform and we pull in 2 years of historical data and it effectively means now that you have a team and an entity who's doing the monitoring and the analysis on your behalf while you just go about and live your life and it has real clinical value to bring these datasets together. The, the blood biomarkers with the family health history and your outcomes around how you're feeling and your wearables information, all of those datasets together will literally lead us down different and better paths in how we build the program for you. So, you know, you might show up with concerns around your energy levels. We can see in your blood biomarkers that you have testosterone on the low side for your age. But then we can also see in your Oura data there's a particular pattern in your sleep that we know is going to be suppressing for testosterone production. So with all of those pieces together, then we can build a program that's working on that goal for you in a much more personalized, more sophisticated way versus any of those things in, in isolation. And I think people are happy to provide that data if, if they are confident they're going to get something of value back for it. So the, the pure sort of system of record where you're effectively just storing data, like you said, and it's not clear what you're getting back from it as a consumer. I don't think any of those things have really gotten the traction that companies wanted them to get. But when you combine it with the actual virtual clinic on top, or the thing that's actually going to fix problems for you that you care about by giving access to that data, I think that's the potential, um, in this next phase of longevity.

I like, I like it when 23andMe or Fitbit, they're like, uh, pay $12.99 to find out, you know, like your, uh, your heart data. You're like, you're like, Jesus, man. I mean, I've already bought the device. You're actually like not going to tell me if I'm just going to keel over, uh, unless I pay $12.99 a month for this. I don't know. It seems like a weird, uh, bargain to be making with some of these things. But yeah, it drives me, it drives me nuts when you, when you You mentioned like sort of this proprietary analysis of that. It just— when you were walking through it, you know, if you're getting 2 years of the— I feel like somebody would actually have to be paying quite a lot of attention to look at my Fitbit data and my blood panels and becoming— I realize it's possible, but I mean, yeah, for a bunch of customers to actually have somebody spending the time to do that, that seems I mean, you must do like a software first pass on all of that that flags things or—

Yeah, that's right. And this style of medicine, you know, sort of true longevity medicine has such a broader data set than you would come across in any other specialty that it's functionally impossible to practice this way without heavily deploying technology and increasingly AI copilots in how that's analyzed as well. You imagine what it would take for an individual clinician to sit down and prepare for a consult with all of this. They'd be spending hours per, per customer, which isn't going to work at all. So now in our model, it is that, it is that triangle between patient, AI, and, and clinician to make that scalable, but also make it more accurate. Because if you're now looking at 5 datasets and trying to spot correlations and patterns between them versus you know, just a clipboard of information in the primary care environment. It's a totally different ballgame.

Yeah. And like, as ever, I get nervous on the AI stuff, just overpromising things. However, I've been like stunned from personal experience in the medical. I mean, the AI seems actually like very good. My dad is, he's quite old. He's in his 90s, was sick. He lives in Mexico. He went to get a chest X-ray and, and got some blood work and I mean, it wasn't a huge deal, but the doctor's like, oh, it's going to take us 5 days before we send you, before we meet with you about the results. But they emailed them to him and they were all in Spanish. And I just put it in ChatGPT and it diagnosed the chest X-ray and his blood work. And then, you know, 5 days later, the doctor said the exact same. I was just impressed that it did this off this image. And then I was talking to one of the world's like foremost oncologist. He's sort of like the oncologist to the rich and, and, um, like he's like the guy you call when things are really, really bad and you have all the resources. And, you know, he was telling me about a very wealthy person who, I'll get some of the numbers wrong, but it was something over the span of about like a year to 18 months had been feeling quite bad, had been getting every test on earth, um, to try and figure out what was wrong with them. Had the resources to see all the best people. They couldn't diagnose anything. He ended up being on a trip somewhere and passed out and got taken to this rural hospital. And they were able to— they said, look, you've got some really crazy rare cancer. And then this rich guy took all that data that he had gathered and with this oncologist built an AI system to go just analyze the data without knowing what had happened. And it, from that data, predicted what he had. So, so it was like sitting there all, all along and people just had missed it, but the AI did find it. So I do, I do find like this pretty, of all the AI stuff, I don't know, this is what I tend to believe and think. Yeah, it just makes sense that, that, that a system that can read every paper, they can see infinite more data than a human ever could should be able to detect patterns in things that humans miss.

Yeah, I, I agree. And I think that— so obviously our model is to combine human expertise with, with AI expertise. And, um, you know, we think that's important because the— I think the role of, of the human expert over time moves pretty quickly from choosing the right thing to do to being the entity that helps clear the blockers for someone to actually do that thing. And those blockers are often psychological or emotional or, you know, really getting into that human conversation around, you know, we feel confident that this is the right path, but let's explain it in a way that actually, you know, makes it, makes it into your mind. Let's talk to you about what reservations you have. Let's understand, you know, have you tried and failed things in the past? Are you secretly feeling worried that you're not going to be able to stick to the plan? Like that whole other uniquely human side of not just identifying the action but making the action happen, I think is still super valuable and will be for a long period of time. But I do think it'll probably surprise people how quickly it almost seems a bit irresponsible for, for a clinician, particularly a clinician working with this much data, to not be partnering with the right AI tool to, to build the program. Like, it'll, it'll feel off the pace very quickly for people.

Yeah. That makes all the sense to me. How did you, how did you get into this? Well, you know, if anyone digs around on your background, I mean, you did your undergrad in Australia, University of Queensland, I think, and then MBA at Cambridge and then got in. You were at BlackRock, I think, and then another management consulting firm and then go off on this startup journey. So what was the What's like the moment in time where you just decided this is the thing you're going to do?

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. I started my career in, in finance, which was great fundamentals and training, but I got to a point in my late 20s where I was, I was noticing things in how I felt about work and how I felt about life that I hadn't come across before. And as I sort of reflected on those, I started to understand that I needed a much stronger mission and purpose in work in order to have that intrinsic motivation to apply myself. Yeah, I've always liked to work very hard, but doing that purely in an extrinsic motivation capacity, which is sort of what it had got to in finance, was depleting rather than restorative for me. So I started thinking a lot about what would that look like and what are the set of problems that I'd be really excited to spend the rest of my career on. And this was around about the time that the first wave of digital health companies were coming through., and that, that value prop around leveling the playing field and creating wider front doors to get to better quality care was just super exciting for me. Um, my older sister's had severe, um, health issues since she was a teenager. My mum spent a lot of her time caring for her. So the firsthand experience, particularly for the two of them, of trying to navigate the healthcare system and even, even in the Australian system, which is much, much more straightforward than the US system. The idea that a technology platform could help with that for a lot of people at scale was exciting. So I joined a company called Grand Rounds Health. It's now called Included Health. And what Grand Rounds was working on initially was the first data science models to measure individual doctor quality. So rather than you asking a friend or Googling who's a good ortho—

Yeah, I've seen the doctor ranking websites.

Yeah, exactly. You know, that's something that you can actually turn into an objective objective metric, which, which we did across a lot of different specialties. And then from there added on various different capabilities to actually deliver the care, but all from that place of clinical quality. So that was sort of stage 1 of stepping in this direction. And then stage 2 of Life Force came from my own experience of being 35 years old, having, you know, considered myself a pretty health-motivated person up to this point, but also in hindsight, pretty complacent about, you know, how I manage my health. I just kind of did the same stuff I'd always done. Used to be a, um, a college rugby player, so felt like I was generally pretty healthy. And then when I was 35, Dad got diagnosed with advanced dementia. I had my first daughter. Um, somehow I'd put on 20 pounds that I couldn't shift and was feeling fatigued like I never had before. So it was this collection of things that, that really just flagged to me that you're in a different stage of life here, both, um, in terms of your responsibilities, but also in terms of your physiology and what's actually happening. And my experience of going out and trying to find the right sort of solution and partner to do something proactively about that was so frustrating and so expensive, both in terms of time and money. So that's really where the idea of Life Force came from. It was this feeling of being totally stuck in a chasm between the traditional healthcare system and the health and wellness industry and thinking, what if you could bring the best of both together? And by doing that, I think you tap into people wanting, you know, not primary care, not health and wellness, but this new solution for controlling their lives through their health.

And that's when you were around 35? Yeah. How old are you now?

40.

40. And so what did you, like, obviously, you know, Life Force didn't exist at that. What did you go, what did you go do as you tried to figure this out? What were the things?

Yeah, a lot of talking to people, a lot of talking to people, both friends and family, and then everyone else I could find around this concept to try and get a sense of, is there appetite for this? Am I the only one who wants something like this? And those conversations, people wouldn't have called it longevity. People called it all kinds of different things, but the sentiment was the same. When I would talk to people about this sense of I want to continue to function as well as I can, and I want peace of mind that I'm on the right track. That felt like a very, very common thing, particularly for folks over about the age of 35. So in those conversations, I started to form this idea of, you know, this membership-based full-stack solution. And then I was connected to some great investors in LA called M13 who'd also been looking a lot at this longevity category. Were really excited to back something in this space. Through them, I was introduced to my co-founder Joel Jackson, who's a great technologist and also had been, you know, thinking about similar things. So it was a group of us coming together, all seeing the opportunity from slightly different angles and thinking if we could create the first brand and platform that does this at scale, the timing would be really good to make this significant company.

Did it start in 2021?

We started building early 2021 and we launched at the start of 2022.

2022. And so sorry again, I mean, this is kind of like Brian's rise is taking place. I just feel like he's kind of captured a lot of the public's imagination on this stuff. I mean, yeah. What are you— what have you made of his whole thing?

Yeah, in general, I think it's, I think it's positive. I think it's good for the category. I mean, I think we have different positioning and different philosophies around, you know, evidence-based and experimental versus validated. But I think there's a space for a spectrum of solutions like that. I think that consumers should be allowed to choose where are they on that spectrum and then find the right companies. It's a little bit like the gym space. There's plenty of great gym companies at all different price points, different orientations. And I think the longevity category should be the same. I think he's been fantastic for word of mouth, eyeballs, buzz. So, you know, overall I think that's all healthy for the category. But then I think that from here we'll see, we will see consumers start to get a bit more discerning around what sort of solution and what sort of, you know, where they want to be in terms of taking bets on things that are more experimental versus, you know, things that are a certain level of evidence behind them.

I feel like you're— it's a struggle to get attention. You know, he's out here tweeting with his blood boy and his erections and everything. And then it's like, where do you want to draw? You know, longevity and aging, it's always been such a— it's this field that's hard between snake oil and science and how you're going to get attention to that and prove that you're real versus something else.

Yeah, no, you're right. You're right. And in some ways we've been a little bit the inverse of some other players in that we've been very focused on the product experience, outcomes, operations. We launched across all 50 states. So there's a lot we've been focused on in making this solid and working well and demonstrating outcomes around it, which we now have. So definitely time for us to turn up the dial and take up more space, which you'll see us do from here. The other thing that's been really interesting recently has been the opportunity we now have to partner with other parts of the healthcare ecosystem. So not even the health and wellness space, but payers, employers, providers, because they're all looking to participate in this longevity boom as well. But they want to, they want to do that with an even higher bar around protecting their reputations and staying away from snake oil and working with companies that are delivering results. So because we've been in market for 3 years now, we have the receipts around outcomes. Um, those conversations are accelerating. We, we launched one yesterday actually with a, a company called Toku. And, um, what Toku actually does is, is create the software that is used in optometry offices to, um, apply AI to retinal scans. And there are actually very well-validated biomarkers in those retinal scans around heart attack risk, and speed of aging as well. So we're partnering with Toku to be the handoff for people who want to actually take action and go, go, go and do something about it when their optometrist is helping them understand that they're at risk of, elevated risk of a heart attack or they're aging faster than they want to be aging.

Yeah. And then I've got my friends, they go to Taiwan and they get these like the full body scans. I know. And then there's startups here in the US that do that. I remember Craig Venter for a while was trying to I think probably still is. I forget the name of the startup he was doing, but, but this— you go in and you get— spend a day and you get assessed. And, and, and again, I just— yeah, this is the same thing. I just feel like people have so many options that it's, it's like I'm one— I'm terrible. I'm one of those people. I hate going to the doctor. Both my parents had cancer when I was a kid. I have just like a psychological total aversion to hospitals. Go to the doctor. It's, it's probably like the exact opposite of what I should be doing. It's just there, you know? And I just, I want like nothing to do with it. I'm super busy. So I report on all this stuff and I'm like so fascinated by it and then I'm horrible and I don't, I'm like, you know, I've had, I play tons of competitive tennis. I've had like a bad shoulder for months just to go in and get an MRI. Took me like 5 months and my wife had to make the appointment. And, and so I don't know, I'm probably like not the— I'm— I would like kind of guess the average person's better than me maybe, but then still trying to decide like, oh, okay, am I going to sign up for this monthly program? I have these check-ins every 3 months. Am I going to go for the one-time, the full body scan every 3 years? It seems daunting. I mean, would, would you— you talked about that partnership, but are you heading to a world where you guys would do things like the full body scan, like kind of just put everything in one place?

Yeah, I think that more and more we are in, in the, in the role of navigating or helping our members navigate this whole space, because I think the pendulum has swung so quickly from even 5 years ago of people wanting more information and not being able to get their hands on it, to now having often too much information and trying to reconcile my full body MRI with my DEXA with my biomarkers. And so for the members who come to us, they're really looking for that single partner that can almost be like their due diligence for the whole category. And whether that's advising them on what additional scans make sense or helping them understand what's a good supplement brand versus a not good supplement brand, it's that concept of almost like a private wealth manager that understands your whole portfolio, takes a lot of that burden off your shoulders on what to do and what not to do. And A lot of it is honestly about streamlining and focusing versus, you know, more spray and pray on different things. But in your, your example, I think if you're someone who, you know, wants the additional data set of a full body MRI, great, you should be able to have access to that. We want to help you access that, hopefully save you some money through a partnership in doing that. But most importantly, we want to then help you interpret those results and we want to help you interpret those results in the context of everything else we already know about you. Because this what now problem is a real thing. And I think it's going to continue to get more and more where people are left with, you know, a report of some sort, but not the extra interpretation and follow through on, on what to do about it. And so they sort of end up spinning their wheels a bit in isolation. And for our members, that's, that's the role we're playing is because all of these things are coming into a central a central integrated view of what's happening in your body. So then they make more sense together.

Can you send a phlebotomist to my house every 3 months?

Yes.

Yep. So yeah. Wow.

Would that get you over the line?

Well, I mean, that's way— it's like every 3 months, it's like, okay, that's a commitment. However, yeah, it's like going to the hospital is the— that's if somebody is actually showing up at my house, that's way more helpful.

Yeah. Yeah.

And they come like any time or I mean, I guess you just schedule it, but yeah, you just schedule at your convenience.

And we did that. We did that because because you need that in order to get the sample to run the quality of analysis that we want to do. But it's also a different type of accountability. You know, if the person's at your door, they're going to get the blood versus the, uh, you know, finger prick test or saliva, which will sit on your kitchen counter for 6 months.

Which I am— I have them sitting there currently. Yes. Yeah, I've got a DNA test and, and I think Viome, which I, I don't think does quite what you guys do. They're more gut.

They're a stool sample.

Okay. Yeah, yeah. So that's sitting there. They keep yelling at me. This is how bad I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the— okay, well, I realize you can beat me up clearly. I'm going to ask you a couple of difficult questions. Okay. The Tony Robbins and Peter Diamandis are a couple of the co-founders and backers of the company. I mean, I don't know Tony at all. I know Peter. He's done a bunch of amazing things in the world. The only thing that strikes me about both of them is, you know, super successful. Clearly I think a lot of people would view them as kind of marketing salesmen type people on certain things. You don't have a medical background. Yeah. I mean, if you looked at this through one lens, it's like, okay, this is, this is kind of some business people trying to, trying to sell me on this thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. So to be explicit, Tony and Peter are not involved in the clinical side of the business or have any influence on protocols or what we offer or don't offer or anything like that. Um, we have our medical director, Dr. Vanita Tandon. We have our chief medical officer, Professor Kurt Hong, and then they work in partnership with our scientific and clinical advisory board. So that includes people like Dr. Rudy Tanzi, who's the head of neurology from Harvard. He was our main partner in the brain protection program we launched recently. Um, Dr. Catherine Rexroad, head of women's health from Brigham hospital. So there's a whole, there's a whole organization within Life Force that assesses every individual biomarker test, supplement ingredient, pharmaceutical, anything that we, we offer to be consistent with where we want to be on this spectrum, which is leading edge, not bleeding edge. So coming back to the conversation around Bryan Johnson before, We want to shorten the time it would normally take for people to get access to things that have actually been validated. But we're not trying to be the place to go to be experimental. Some of those things will then become validated and will make their way into Life Force over time. But we think it's ethically the right place to be and commercially the right place to be to focus on things that are real and clear the threshold for, for validation. Tony and Peter have been really effective for us in helping to get the word out about the brand. They've got really passionate communities, particularly in the first year when we launched the company afresh. It was a, a great head start and advantage to be able to speak to a community of folks through their megaphones when generally a lot of those people are in it because they want to improve their lives. So you think about Tony's community and he's been in the business of helping people improve their lives for decades.. And so this is a very natural conversation to have with them. And he was great as an advisor to think about storytelling and marketing and how we think about those sorts of things, but not at all on the, on the clinical or scientific side of Life Force.

Okay. I mean, I like the special— I had some family members who were sick recently, and the biggest advice I got was, was just like, do not assume the doctors are looking at the sort of that zone that you're talking about, things that aren't, are not, it's not crazy risky, but they're at the cutting edge of, of what seems to be working. And, and just like, don't assume that your doctors are paying attention to all that stuff and like be proactive about, um, asking about them, bringing it, you know, finding out what, what is available.

Uh, it's usually about 15 to 17 years. You've probably heard this stat as well. For a, a protocol to be validated in, in a research environment and to make its way into mainstream practice.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, it's, it's that cliché around the future is here but not evenly distributed. It very much applies within the healthcare space as well. Yeah. So there's a whole set of things that are not leaps of faith or taking punts on things that aren't safe or validated. It's just the, the mechanics of the healthcare complex and how long it takes for things to make their way into the average provider's way of, way of working.

And then, I mean, another question I had, and I think it's a tough one to answer, I guess, in a, in a meaningful way, but I mean, you could see a world— you guys are also selling supplements and hormones and recommending these things. Obviously you could see a world where it's like, oh, okay, well, that's the, that's the real business, that's the bigger end of the business, and, and you're going to be incented to recommend these things to people. And yeah, I mean, how do you Again, it's a tough question to answer because it's like, okay, well, we're going to do our best to do this pragmatically. And, but, you know, I do, I could see people looking through this frame and being skeptical.

Yeah, I think it's an important question, not just for us, but for the whole category, because I think that if you know what to look for, it is quite easy to find businesses where the incentives are all out of whack. And, you know, we're all human beings, incentives will drive behavior and If you're a company that makes all its money off testosterone prescriptions, that's going to create a weird dynamic in that business, even if, even if there are still good people, you know, trying to do the right thing there. So we've been very intentional in how we design the business and the economics of the business to make sure that we are in the right place on that. So, you know, as an example, the majority of members don't have any pharmaceutical or supplement with us. Having said that, we think it's important to be able to provide those things because On the supplement side, for example, we offer, you know, very high-quality kind of specialist formulations on a narrow set of things that are often things that we know our members need help with because of all the biomarker data that we can see. But when we're talking to them about that, we're talking to them about the molecule that will make a difference, not the product that will make a difference. And we're also talking to them about the whole supplement landscape and often referring them to other brands and other products because we haven't Tried to create some comprehensive line of supplements. I think we've got 10 SKUs at the moment. So, you know, we want to put them in choice through education around this is the, this is the issue. This is how this molecule can help you. This is how to find a high quality version of that. And if we do that job well, then for convenience reasons, people often, you know, want everything in one place as well. So. You know, under the hood, the business works really well, um, if we are supporting people with the membership and the membership only. And anything beyond that is kind of depending on the individual program.

Do you ever have to like protect people from themselves a bit? You know, I mean, obviously there's people who get addicted to things like plastic surgery or whatever. And then, you know, I, I go on this AgelessRx website sometimes and you're just looking at everything, you're like Oh, I could lose weight, improve my skin. And you know, and you're like, yeah, I am having a little trouble with that. Like, oh, I'll do this thing too. And I don't know, it's just right there. You can just click away and this stuff shows up at your door. And you know, some things I'm actually digging into and then some things you're just kind of like, okay, well I assume these people know what they're doing. Yeah, I don't know. I just feel like people could get, get overactive.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's really interesting because often, often what we'll do as part of the first consult is a bit of an audit on, okay, what else are you doing? Where did this thing come from? What's the goal that you're doing this for? And it's pretty—

I was taking metformin for a while because everyone in Silicon Valley was, and I just went to my GP for my checkup, or no, I was maybe like my dentist, and they're like, why are you taking Do you have diabetes? I was like, no. And they're like, what are you doing? I mean, they were so horrified.

And it was like, I was like, I guess that's the other end of the spectrum. You don't want to go there either, you know, because, because it's because I think you sort of, you have to respect people and put them in choice about things, not shame them or make them feel silly. Because a lot of these things like metformin in a proactive sense is, is potentially a great, a great ingredient in someone's program. So you don't want to be all the way at the other end of saying, oh, unless you have you know, chronic diabetes, you shouldn't ever think about metformin. That doesn't make any sense either. It's just a matter of helping people get a bit more organized around what are the things we're doing, why are we doing them, how do we do them in the best way. And some of those things can be, you know, much more on the progressive proactive end of things. Others will be more core things that they know they need to be doing. I think it's often just helping people come up with the proper kind of blueprint to organize all this stuff together. Versus spraying and praying on a bunch of stuff that's pretty disconnected. And I think once we do that, you know, we often end up with people doing fewer things, but the things they're doing are going to be more impactful for what's important for them to work on.

When you guys say you're the largest program of this type, I mean, how are you measuring that?

Number of members.

Number of members. And are most people— do you guys say how many members? No, publicly. You're based— are you based in LA? You are?

I'm based in LA. Yeah.

Is the company— it's based in LA?

Technically based in LA, but we're a remote company, so we've got folks all over.

Is Southern California sort of like the biggest market?

It's actually not. Yeah, it's one of, but our distribution maps the US population, which is interesting because I often get this question of, is this a New York, San Francisco, LA phenomenon? But if you see a map of membership, it's across all 50 states and it does just track the population, which is great because I think it shows that, you know, this has now jumped the fence from something that is clustered in those cities to just this broader sense of folks all over the place around, you know, wanting a different and better, better solution. Um, when before we launched, we, we did sort of think about this as what would it be like to export the best of, of longevity medicine that you might have had to pay that $50,000 or $100,000 to do in a concierge clinic in LA across the whole country at a price point that could become part of people's ecosystem.

I am curious where all this heads. I mean, some of me feels like we're exporting LA culture across, across the world. I, I, I do agree with you. I think there's broadly, as the science and the tools and things available, people have gotten more interested in longevity. I think you see young people drinking far less than they used to. There's something going on of like a, cultural. It seems so stupid, I guess, in some ways, like people want to live longer. But then there's, you know, this is what I used to always fight with Bryan about. I mean, there are like, there are some trade-offs that I think are, I mean, it's probably net good that people want to be healthy and live longer. I had a friend who was, they live in LA and then they went to a restaurant in New York and they're like, man, there's just, everybody's talking here. And they're like, oh, they're all like drinking. Like that's why this restaurant doesn't feel like a library. Very, you know. And, uh, yeah, I don't know, especially like, I'm sure as an Aussie this is, this is run through your brain.

Yeah, I definitely think you can, um, you can optimize the joy out of life pretty easily if you go far down here. And, uh, yeah, when I go out to dinner with people and want to have a couple of drinks, people are like aghast that I would be interested in doing that. But I think of it as it's, it's more around like do the things that are going to be most important so you can enjoy the things you really love to do as well. Like, it doesn't mean that everything you enjoy is a non-healthy thing to do, but you've got to have both. You've got to have a balance. And when we think about who we have built Life Force for, sure, we have hardcore health optimizer folks who do this for kicks and love it, and they're great members. And, you know, that's, that's a, that's a, that's a good cohort, but that's not actually who we really thought about building platform for. It's people who have health motivation. So they, you know, they're sincere that they actually want to function well and live a long time and they're willing to put in some effort, but they have busy lives, a lot of stuff going on. They've probably let themselves slip from where they were earlier in life and they just kind of want it handled in a trustworthy and convenient way because they're doing it in service of other things that really bring them joy in life. It's not the, You know, it's not the longevity practice itself that they get joy from, it's the other things that enables them to do now and in the future. And I think that's the, that's the biggest opportunity here. And that's, you know, that's sort of the, the way we've thought about balancing, you know, anything from number of biomarkers to what we offer. It's like, how can we, how can we help that group of folks have a fantastic 30s, 40s, 50s, and beyond?

Because this seems like The US is the best place to do this in some ways, and then it just seems like it would be a liability, like fucking nightmare to do this in the United States where you just have some rando who's doing the program. They just happen to like be sick because they're sick or something. And yeah, it's like, you didn't, you didn't make me live forever. And yeah, yeah, I don't know.

I mean, this is, I, yeah, I suppose, yeah, it's, it's a good point because I think that on one hand Americans, uh, sort of have that attitude of I'm going to go out and I'm going to find a way and I'm going to fix it. I'm going to do something like I can, you know, I as an individual can choose my path, which I think is part of the psychology that you're seeing with longevity as well. But then on the flip side, we've got 4 law firms and I've spent an obscene amount of money making sure that we're buttoned up and doing everything the right way from that side as well.

Yeah, I am required by law to ask you what you do. You know, what's your regimen? And I don't know, do you take any things people should be— or that have worked for you?

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, switching hats as a Life Force member now, you know, when I first started on the program, my main concerns were body composition and heart attack risk. So on the body composition side, I was carrying a few pounds that I couldn't shift. It was the first time in my life where I didn't feel like I had control of that. As we dug into those results, we saw that my hormone balance, specifically my DHEA levels, were off, which can be a, can be a factor in not being able to really control body composition. So that's a very straightforward thing to measure and control. That's just an over-the-counter supplement, as long as you find a good one. So that's part of my program. I mentioned my vitamin D levels, which was helping me with mental performance and energy. And then on the heart attack side, my ApoB was at 110 and then trended to 120 and was heading in the wrong direction despite changes to my diet, despite changes to my exercise, which signals a genetic predisposition. And no man on my dad's side of the family had ever lived to see grandkids. That's something— that's a risk I just wanted to move very aggressively on. So I started rosuvastatin to lower that, which, you know, which it did. So that's a good example of kind of a step therapy approach of see how much I can move it, and then at a certain point, if a pharmacological solution is, is, is there to do the job, I'll happily do that for myself. But it's individual decision. And then at the moment, I'm thinking a lot about brain protection as well. And, um, you know, Dad's got Alzheimer's at the moment, and, um, when, when we started to dig further into that space as we're building out our brain protection program with Dr. Tanzi. There's a set of blood biomarkers that will show you the early pathology of Alzheimer's and dementia up to 25 years before the symptoms. So Dad was diagnosed at 66, I'm 40, you can do the maths. So that is an area from a diagnostics perspective that I'm digging into a lot to see if I have any of those early signs. And from there, depending on the results, then my program will, will probably change with that as a core goal.

What's your— what is your score?

My score's a 79.

79. So, and you want people to be at 85?

Yeah, that's right.

Well, you got work to do.

I do. I do. It's found a— found a life.

Yeah. I mean, I know you just mentioned a couple of things, but I mean, is it obvious what would get you those 6 points?

Yeah. So, so the, the other goal for me is metabolic health. And insulin levels and lowering my HbA1c a little bit.

Okay.

That'd be, that'd be the other lever that will get me higher from here.

And do you, are you vegan? What's your, what's your diet?

I'm not, no. I'm, I'm generally low carb, um, balanced, kind of Mediterranean-style diet. That's how I describe myself.

And obviously you work out every day.

Try to, yeah. Yeah. I find as you get older, it's just, it's a consistency game. Yeah. Um, you know, even when you go away on holidays, you take a week off and you'll spend 2 months trying to get back on track.

Yeah. And so you lift, then you do cardio.

Lift, cardio. Got into pickleball a year ago, and that's become my— that's become my thing.

I told you, that's okay, that's okay.

Yeah, so I'm, I'm a total pickle dork at this point.

It seems like good exercise. Um, uh, the name Dougal— well, I guess it's not— it's probably not Australian.

Is that, is that like No, it's actually Scottish. Scottish. It's Scottish. And my dad, my dad's got a red beard and has always been very proud of his Scottish ancestry. And you mentioned 23andMe, but we got him a 23andMe test a couple of years ago. And it turns out that he's far less Scottish than he thought.

Okay.

But by that stage, I was already named Dougal.

Yeah. I mean, the second it was coming out of my mouth, I was like, oh, it's probably a British name. Although it feels like an Aussie nickname almost. Like, because they give nicknames to everything. That's true.

You'd probably be Vance.

Yeah, I would. Well, because I was Ash everything, you know? Yeah. So what was the surprise?

I mean, he still had some Scottish roots, but it was a little bit more of a mix from various places around the world as well. Sorry, less thoroughbred Scottish than he thought.

Are you a ginger when you're letting the flow go?

It's been a while since I had the flow. I have a, I have a little bit of ginger in the beard actually, but I, I keep that pretty clean-shaven.

Okay. Um, what are— we should be mindful of your time. This has been fantastic. I mean, okay, so obviously people can go to— I think it's actually mylifeforce.com.

mylifeforce.com.

Yep. And you know, what is— what's like on the horizon for the next 6 months to a year, or, or where are you guys heading?

Yeah, I, I We're, we're, um, pretty excited in a couple of directions on the product. One, one is that this, this problem that I mentioned before around people having gotten a blood test or, um, some data from somewhere and not knowing what to do, what to do with it, I think is a really natural opportunity for us. So increasingly we're going to allow people to actually get started with, with data from other places as well. So hopefully that means that Life Force is even more accessible and can kind of fill that gap we're seeing where as, as testing becomes more and more prevalent and commoditized, there's going to be more and more people needing somewhere to go to take action. So that's going to be something that we're going to, you know, encourage people to do with us. And then also adding in and integrating more, more diagnostics around the core of what we do. So DEXA scans, for example, is a great example of something that people should be doing, you know, once, maybe twice a year.

What is that?

So it's a body composition analysis. So you actually go to a physical location. It only takes about 15 minutes. They actually have trucks that will drive around and have you do it.

I know what you're talking about.

Yeah, yeah. But our ability to help our members understand when's the right time to do that and help them get there with more convenience, save them money and pull that in. And you actually get an update on your Life Score and a better perspective on how you're doing. That's a theme and it's not just limited to Dexa. It's a whole set of things that we're pretty excited about that will sort of increasingly allow us to be that, that single repository of all this information that we then use to actually do something useful with you.

Okay. Yeah. It's like I've, I've done my whole genome sequenced. I've got my Fitbit. Yeah. I've done blood tests. Yeah. And there's, they're all scattered to the wind in like 6 different places.

Exactly.

And it's just, it's like just, it's basically just annoying to keep track of. And there's, there's definitely no merging of this data to come to any kind of conclusion. And my doctor has like no access to any of it, which makes all the sense in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a little bit like the analogy I used before about a financial planner of a lot of people effectively working with like one financial planner for debt, one for the stock market, one for their cash account.

Yeah.

And. You know, none of it's kind of flowing to the same place.

Yeah.

And as a result, you don't make so much money. Yeah.

Yes. All right, man. Well, thank you, Dougal, so much for coming in. I really appreciate it.

Cool. Thanks, Ashlee.

It was fun, chat. Core Memory is hosted by me, Ashlee Vance. The show is produced by David Nicholson and me. Our theme music is by James Mercer. And John Sortland, and the show is edited by the John Sortland. Thank you all for listening. As mentioned, the show is sponsored by Yuan Ventures. Thanks.