The Space Race Is So Back — EP 76 Ashlee Vance And Kylie Robison

All right, Kylie, we're going to save America this week.

We got all the answers.

We got them all. I am Ashlee Vance.

I'm Kylie Robison.

And this is Core Memory. Here we go. Da da. All right. We are indeed saving America.

We sure are.

I think we started a movement. This, for months now, I have been calling for America to make actuators. If you don't know what they are, you, you will find out here shortly. And, and they are a very important part of many industries. Turns out America was not making many of them. China was making a lot. And then, then I got highly Completely filled into this cause. And I genuinely think, well, okay, we're diving deep on this in just one second. But Kylie wrote this masterpiece story all about actuators, about a couple startups who are trying to make actuators in the United States again. I know these companies existed before we started our campaigning and tirade, but I do think we I do think we helped foment a moment.

We did. Yeah. I— you've seen my progression of actuators on this very pod because I was looking back for my reporting because I was like, obviously I was skeptical and then I became an acolyte and I went back to one of our pods where you say Kylie didn't even know what an actuator was. And now I'm completely pilled. We are so fucked. Not enough people are paying attention to it. And so we wrote this big, big story on it.

Yeah. So let's explain to people if you haven't caught it on the site. I mean, we're going to talk about it here, so you don't have to, but you should read the story. It's called—

No, you have to.

You do have to. This is why America can't have robots and other nice things. So where should we start? You want to explain what an actuator is for the people?

Yeah. So this was my favorite part of the story because Ashlee Vance said, I want you to ask every person you talk to to define an actuator. And this was in the story when I asked Jordan Sanders, a co-founder of Westmag, one of the companies featured, he tried to make it into a haiku and got lost and don't think he really defined it. An actuator is a machine component that turns energy into motion. It can go linear one way up and down or rotary in a circle, and they make up about 60% of the cost of making humanoid robots in every joint, they are largely made in China.

And as you point out in your story, very broad. I mean, they're in laptops, smartphones, anything that moves, more or less. Yeah, I got hung up on this because of the humanoid robots, because they are such a big part of the cost. It's where all the interesting stuff happens with the limbs moving. Anywhere you see a joint, anything like that. And as we were reporting for a documentary project on, on the rise of these humanoids, it became very clear that not only does China have way more humanoid robots than we have, but they make all the parts, the key parts that go into this. So in the actuator, there's a, there's a, there's a motor, an electric motor. And these two things are really joined together because it's, it's the same problem that affects like the United States drone industry, for example, where we don't make any of the motors that help the propellers grow. So even if you have a United States drone company like a Skydio that's trying to, trying to revive the US drone business, you get in trouble pretty fast when you need these extremely important components.

Do you know where they source their motors and actuators?

I think they were with a Japanese or a Taiwanese or a Korean company, which you can— there are people in, in all of those countries who make motors, actuators. But China is cheapest, is cheapest and just totally dominant. And any time I would ask anyone about, well, why don't we do this? Like, part of this is it's not like it's like impossible to do. The United States has plenty of smart people and the manufacturing capability to make these things. The one of the main issues is cost. And it's just this notion that It's pointless for the United States to even try to do this because our— even if we built these motors and actuators, they'd be 10 times the cost of China.

Yeah.

But at some point you sort of have to do it if you think, if you think stuff like drones and electric cars and humanoids are going to be a thing in the future, which I'm pretty sure they're going to be and only more. And this is— this goes to weapons. This goes to all the things that are getting electrified, then, you know, if you run into a situation— China and the US clearly have tense relations, and if things get more tense and China wants to cut this off, you've basically cut off like all of modern, modern devices, manufacturing, everything.

That was my point with the story is that you don't need to know the specifics of what an actuator and motor are. You need to really understand the stakes. Everything, you know, like the, the modern comfort that we experience here is largely thanks to motors and actuators, and they largely come from China. And China didn't go out to like sort of dominate the motors and actuators industry. They dominated in those markets you mentioned, EVs, humanoids. So we've, we're just kind of fucked. And drones.

Yeah.

And so we've sanctioned, you know, in all sorts of ways drones, but you know, we're still not making the key components here. And that's a huge issue. Exactly. If, you know, if you go to the American Dynamism A16z webpage, they lay out sort of this fictional scenario of China taking Taiwan in 2027 and we're fucked. Uh, that is sort of the scenario I don't go deep on because we don't know, but it's, it's the real critical issue of really how screwed we could be.

Yeah, and you just want to make all this stuff if you can. I mean, the other part of it is just we see the re-industrialization movement, so we want to make We want to make the drones, we want to make weapons, we want to make, um, senkutsen, just, just metal parts and bring all that back again. But then when you have some of these key pieces that you're missing, sometimes you have to question if it's not like it's full-on theater like I've written about, but I mean, there's an element to it where it's like, okay, well, you're doing a lot, but we're missing some pretty key parts that make the whole thing. Not pointless, but flawed.

What did you think of— So one of the approaches in the piece, there's two companies, Westmag, they're making the motors and actuators in America, in South San Francisco, the industrial city. I went to their office. They have a Chinese humanoid robot in their lobby, which we'll get into later. And then there's Atlas Motion Systems. And the plot twist there is that they design them in Long Beach, California, but they manufacture them at scale in the Philippines. So I was wondering what you think of that approach.

Well, I mean, the Philippines is an interesting choice. So Atlas is in SoCal and yeah, so both companies are relatively the same age. I guess WestMag's maybe a little bit older.

Yeah.

They've got some swag here. They're noted for their swag. I don't, I mean, it just has this, it's kind of like what iconic.

It's just, so how it started is I tweeted that we need American actuators. I've been pilled. And everyone started tagging David Hanson, the co-founder of WestMag, and he immediately DM'd me and sent me merch. And I was like, what do they do? Are they a merch company? And then I was telling you that they'd be interesting to cover and you're like, what do they build? I was like, I know it's not just merch.

So, well, okay, so yeah, there's these two different philosophies that you outlined. I mean, the Atlas guy. Okay, well, both companies are very interesting when you, when you wrote your story and then just on X, you see that everyone's like, oh, WestMag, this guy David and his team, they know everything about this stuff. They're going to do it. Atlas felt a little younger in terms of the company. And then the founders are— they've just come from other hard tech companies. And so, and one of the founders has ties to the Philippines. He also worked to the like adjacent side of the US military and spent time all through Asia. So he's building off this firsthand knowledge that When I've talked to him, I got the feeling he just agrees with this thesis of like, yeah, it would be great to build them here, but I just don't even know that that's, that's actually gonna happen.

They both think the other one is kind of dumb in their approach, right? Like, I, I understand like sort of the Atlas approach, which is we're just not going to make it at scale here in a way that's efficient, good, like good quality, and quickly. So, you know, go to a treaty ally country and build there at scale.

And then you have to wonder why that has— because it has happened to a degree. I mean, Korea, South Korea, Japan, these are countries— Taiwan. Well, Taiwan is problematic, but the Philippines is problematic too. It's in that part of the world. I just think if things kick off, it's— don't you run into similar problems? You're not going to be able to have boats just cruising.

I say look at the Strait of Hormuz right now. Right.

And so So that part, I mean, I get their logic 100% and maybe a lot of all of this is like you have to start somewhere, you know, because I see people on the story, they're like, well, they're building the actuators and the motors, but we still need the rare earth magnets. And this whole thing is flawed, which is true. But it's like you have to start somewhere.

You have to start somewhere.

Both companies are trying to get to this like critical mass. And you could, you could 100% see a world where Atlas even gets going in the Philippines and then you can—

onshore. Yeah.

Stuff in the US as well. Somebody just needs to make a lot of these. The big difference that I don't know that everybody sees because they'll see Tesla making humanoids or Figure and a couple other companies is just that in the difference is even if Tesla got to a massive scale and by the way, Tesla at least buys its prototypes from China for these parts. Um, there, there's still a flaw because they, they, they don't sell their products to other companies, whereas in China Unitree will sell a robot to whoever wants one. And then there's 10 companies like Unitree. And so unless I just— when you start thinking about where the volume of all this would go, and if humanoids really take off, then the US needs a general purpose supplier of these things to many, many companies. And it's, it's like every startup the same thing happened in the rocket business where everyone wants to make their own engine because it's like the— it's seen as the key part. And that's like where you make a difference versus other companies. But then time and again, the engine just bankrupts every company because it's really expensive. It takes a long time to build and the motors and actuators aren't as bad. But you point this out in your story, or I think it was David, maybe it was, is that the Silicon Valley instinct is to be like, well, I'm going to make a better actuator than you. And then I see the merits of that. But then you can't have 50 companies doing it. It's just a lot of wasted.

You just need to make a shit ton, which both companies plan to do in different ways, but they both understand you just need to make a ton. For Atlas, they have software, the woo-woo AI software that David says isn't necessary. Atlas uses to, you know, design these bespoke parts and then mass manufacture them in the Philippines versus Westmag wants to just do a generalized standard process, standard motor, and then, you know, sort of design around it once they're good at that.

What was the software called again?

Vector.

Vector. So I only got to see it when they showed it. I have never played with it. I only got to see what—

I didn't get to play with it, but they did show it to me and I'm not mechanical engineer. So it's a very long page with all these specs and all this math. It's very, very pretty. Uh, I bet it's very sexy to someone who works in that field.

It looked cool for— I have reported on companies like Ansys before, which makes software that all types of manufacturing companies use. When you want to, you create your computer-aided design prototype, and then you can actually put what materials you're gonna build this wing of a plane out of. And it's, it's grabbing the materials properties, it's helping you with these simulations. And so they've, essentially built some AI-infused motor actuator-specific version of that type of software. It looked really cool in that you're supposed to be able to go to them and say, I want my motor to accomplish these tasks, it's got to push something that's like this big, and then the software goes in, designs a motor, and then it checks to see if it works for your system. Do we actually have these parts on hand at the ready? This is how much this would cost, and all the time with this type of software, I get a little nervous until you've actually seen it in action and know that it works. But totally, it did look fancy.

So part of it too is, say you are at Boston Dynamics and you have figured out a new architecture for your motor and you want to test that on your humanoid. And these, I don't want to say they break easily, but if you're testing them all the time, you're going to run through a bunch of these. So you've designed a new one, you want to get it. And you send it off, it's going to take a long time for that to get back and then you've already moved on to something else. So that's sort of the problem they want to fix is that you make this design and rather than like take months of engineering and designing, you have it in a few minutes and then they go manufacture it and get it to you in a week. Right now it's 8 weeks to get it, which was really funny to ask them. I was like, how long would it take? And they're like, well, yeah, we need a lot more money. It's about 8 weeks, but we're trying to get it down to a week. So that would be really interesting.

And there's definitely something going on here. I'm not, um, I don't know if I'm, uh, well, I am a true believer in the people trying to reindustrialize for all the reasons we've outlined. I've been skeptical about which bits and pieces, but when you add up companies like Senkotsen, you see what Atlas and Westmag are doing, and then after we did our story, there's folks like, like Knox Metals in Detroit, all these, these people popping up, it does seem like something interesting is happening where I think it's on a tiny scale compared to China. But again, you have to start somewhere and everyone's building these different parts of the supply chain.

Totally. I was just thinking of Gretchen Whitmer visiting all of these companies.

I—

her LinkedIn post that's in my story is she visited Westmag. She also visited Astro Mechanica, which I was like, oh my gosh, that was in my San Francisco episode coming soon. And, you know, this like reindustrialization of America. It feels like the government is finally catching on and they're like— David says this in the story, like, you know, it was chips and drones. What else does this apply to? And robotics motors, actuators seem to be having a moment.

Yeah, she needs to— they need to get Michigan to put some money instead of just doing a bucket of money. Yeah. All right. What do we do at Core Memory? We cover innovative, fast-moving, forward-thinking companies, which is why Core Memory is sponsored by Brex, because Brex is the intelligent finance platform for many of these companies. 30,000 companies from startups to the world's largest corporations rely on Brex's technology for their finances. They've got smart corporate cards, high-yield business banking, and expense automation tools that are fantastic. I hate doing my expenses and Brex's AIs and software run right through those expenses, figure out where we're spending money, and take care of so much stuff for you so you don't have to waste your time on it yourself. Go to brex.com/corememory to learn more and just, you know, get with the program. Let's get going. Let's get out of this archaic finance software and move toward the future. CoreMemory and Brex. Well, you did the story. Anything else that jumped out at you that maybe didn't make it into the piece?

Or, um, you know, the China approach— I was also thinking of like the government taking notice because, you know, they're going to know more than us, this, us, you know, civilians, about what's happening and escalating around the world. It seems to me like— do they? Um, it seems to me that things are escalating and I'm slightly concerned. I had a lot of people reach out about the actuator story, and someone who works in robotics was like, this is really important for people to care about, and I haven't convinced anyone to care about it. Like, how do you get people to care? I was like, I'm a writer, you know. It was like, you know, the two narratives. But by the end, anyone who didn't know what a motor actuator was— you don't have to know— they understand, like, we have a manufacturing problem here. And that really seem to reach people in an interesting way. And another thing too is I am very hardware-pilled. I was covering AI for so long, I couldn't imagine pivoting out of it, which is funny because before that I was covering Twitter, the Elon Twitter, and I couldn't imagine pivoting out of that. And with this one, it feels like not enough people are covering it whatsoever. It's kind of shocking. We wrote this week about a new act, a new bill proposed by Congress, and no one, not a major publication, covered that. And that just doesn't happen in AI. Like, every single movement in quote is covered, but not in this.

Yeah, the bill came right after your story, about a day or two, and was— is aimed at setting the groundwork for more or less having a way to ban Chinese robots from U.S. soil, much like we've done with drones and Huawei on networking equipment. And it's early rumbles and they're just, they're, they're doing the thing they always do. I covered the whole Huawei. Um, yeah. You get to this point where, so Huawei makes networking equipment. Now they make a whole bunch of other stuff, but the US didn't want all this Chinese networking equipment and data centers and telco racks and everything. And so they always come out with the same thing, which is it has backdoors that people can spy on. And then you're like, you're like, wow, is anyone spying? What do you mean?

And then.

They, they never give you actual details. I mean, you and your reporting on this did find— I mean, there were researchers who—

I did not know about those exploits in Unitree. So the bill, you know, is basically the same way we banned drones and Huawei, as you mentioned, like you put it on the covered list, the FCC covered list, and that means it can't come into the United States. We can't sell it. But, you know, with DJI, you know, it's still kind of, you know, floating around America consumer markets.

But a bit of a problem when you actually want a drone.

Exactly. So, uh, so to essentially do that, and they were really targeting Unitree specifically, a China humanoid robot, and they do quadrupeds, the robot dogs. Um, they were really targeting them and they were like, they have backdoors, they're going to spy on us, they are spying on us. But they didn't say how or what any of those instances were in the actual bill or the press release. And then when I went hunting, I actually found some of those exploits, which I didn't know about before. I'm, you know, sort of like, are they actually spying? I guess I would lean more to, yeah, we should be cautious. But that is the sort of brunt of their, their press release in the bill, is like, we should be fearful, when in actuality, as I wrote, you know, we haven't built it ourselves, and fear is the best way to sort of catch up, it seems.

The nightmare scenario being that China does dominate the humanoid robot market, we have them all in our homes and factories, and then China decides one day to, you know, to weaponize them, or they're just listening to everything that's going on. The great flaw with our politicians on this plan is, is that even if we wanted to replace these robots, we really kind of couldn't do it right now. Yeah. So it's like, well, you can ban that. It's the same as in drones. I mean, all these police departments, fire departments, everybody want— they use DJI because they're really cheap and good and they do your job and We don't even make enough to supply everyone.

So yeah, Unitree was first. They're fast, they're better, and we just don't really have an equivalent. You've covered some of the American equivalents, but they're very young. It's still like a really nascent market because I want to say between 13,000 and 18,000 humanoids were sold last year around the world. It's still very small.

Yeah, mostly for research.

So for research. Yeah.

So you're skeptical. I always see your skepticism. You wrote in the story you don't think a humanoid will be feeding your cats by like 2030. Yeah, we're 2026.

You think a humanoid will be feeding my cat by 2030? I hear a lot of 2030 sci-fi at this point, and I'm like, I'm not so sure, guys.

What's the problem? The problem is still the hands, and then the thought that you have this big giant machine that just goes bonkers.

No, you know what, I'm not so fearful of the machine. I mean, I live in a studio. Can you imagine that clomping around? My downstairs neighbor would fucking kill me. Um, No, I just, I don't see us figuring that out in America. Like, I don't need a Unitree robot, something small, consumer-grade. The bill does not cover wheeled robots. So I'm thinking of like sort of the Black Mirror-esque wheeled robot that is not banned. But by 2030, no, I don't, I don't see that really happening. And the humanoid market, well, when you look at these things, that was like my first week at Core Memory. I was deathly sick. We all were. And I went to What was the robot shoot?

Yeah, we went, we did at least one at the, um, the rec, um, was it the big battle?

No, it was the humanoid sit-down interview.

Right.

With David and Kamen.

And it was, oh, the Phantom.

Is it Phantom Foundation? Uh, they have a Businessweek cover where it's like Terminator style.

Right, right. Um, yeah. Keep vamping.

Hey, so, so, uh, we went there and I had never really seen a humanoid like that up close.

And that one is like the Phantom robot made by Foundation.

Foundation. Yeah, that was like— that robot's like, what, like 6-foot-something?

It's pretty— yeah, I mean, it's— and it's, uh, it's broad-shouldered. It's a big robot.

It's a big robot. I think they had it on hooks basically, and they were taking it apart for the video. But that thing was freaky. And it doesn't help that they have like the magazine cover on the wall that's like, this thing's gonna kill you, basically. Uh, I'm not really scared, but something like that I don't see like in a consumer market any time, maybe within 5 to 8 years, maybe a decade. But yeah, not by 2030.

Skeptical.

Super skeptical.

I won't get into this because I didn't really listen to everything he had to say, but I did laugh. Bernie Sanders did his— we should give half of AI companies away to the American public, which, you know, I don't know. But I do laugh because he's got his DJI microphone on his lapel.

And I find comedy in, in all of this, the, the sweet irony of it all.

We just got our senator mic'd with the— as we're passing all this legislation about robots spying on us, our senators in his office with his DJI mic. I mean, you don't even need a back door, he's just, he's just mic'd up.

Yeah, there's something else I was going to say about the robotics front. I think, you know, it's having a moment. It's really interesting. Um, I'm still pilled, like I'm still really, really fascinated by the progress this market is making. I just don't see like this broad consumer use of them anytime soon.

Well, we have been trying to fold a t-shirt for very long. Yeah.

Oh, that's the, that's the other thing too, is what I'm really pilled about coming from AI is something that's touched on in the actuator story, which is If you're AGI-pilled and you think, like, you know, we're going to reach AGI and it needs a physical, you know, body to exist and learn. And I don't think I've talked about it on the pod too much, but world models really interest me. Me and David had a good debate about this actually on the SF shoot because he's not as— he thinks world models aren't going to work. I think it's like a fascinating new avenue to create new intelligence. It's how we learn through the world. That's interesting. If we reach something like we're, we're reaching self-improving AI, Anthropic said today, I think, in a headline, then it being in robots makes sense to me. But that is a little— that's when it gets a little scary.

Seems like it's going the driverless car route where you have 80, 85, 90% of things solved, but the last 10% are really important and kind of make everything work. And the hand And being dexterous.

Yeah.

Is one of these. And then the safety and, um, even when, what is it, 1X was selling that robot, I think they're still remotely monitored and, and this is, it's not gonna work like that. So maybe it takes, maybe it's the same thing. I mean, we've just, even though a lot of money's been poured into this over the years, we've kind of like just hit the phase where it's that many, many billions of dollars and many companies trying, like we saw in self-driving land. So yeah, this could be like 10 years.

Also, fun fact, remember Ben Katz from my story?

Yes.

He— did you know he works at Pi?

No.

Isn't that interesting? Yeah. So I mentioned this guy, Ben Katz. He had a thesis. I believe he was a researcher at MIT, a graduate student, and he made— it was the Tiger motor. And he was like, China should steal this because I want it to be everywhere and we can't manufacture it. And they did. They did. And they did. So that's like sort of the basis both for WestMag and a lot of motors out there and actuators. And yeah, he works at Pi working on those hands.

Yeah. Okay. Well, that makes sense. Well, all right, we'll move on. That is— but you guys should all read the story. And we did our duty. You'll probably read that exact same story in The New York Times in, I would imagine, like 18 to 24 months.

Yeah.

So I, and I promise you that will happen.

Yeah.

I'm not sure exactly.

I literally had nightmares about it as I was so excited about it. Last I'll say about this, I was so excited about it because OpenAI just released a position to be an actuator engineer. As I was writing the story and I was going to bed, I was like, if The New York Times and Wall Street Journal write about this in 18 to 24 months, and don't credit us, I'm going to throw a fit.

They will and they won't.

Yep.

So, um, they'll probably get there quicker now that we've put it out there.

I know.

Uh, yeah, always interesting to see their follow speed. I'm going a little off route for one second because we have to congratulate Michaela Sortland. John Sortland, as you all know, is our wonderful podcast editor and the drummer of The Shins. His wife has just been elected to the Nevada City Council. Nevada City is not in Nevada, it's in California. Um, we just went to shoot part of an episode there last week because half of our employees work in Nevada City. And, uh, it is this strange, very artsy, musical— it's an old gold mining town. It's very well preserved. It has lots of tourists who come visit because of this beautiful downtown, and it's in the mountains. But then it has this strange, um, cultural streak to it where there's just a lot of famous musicians who have come out of it, artists. And Michaela is, is in bands. John is in multiple bands, including The Shins. When we were there, I got to hang out for a little bit with Joanna Newsom, who a lot of people listening to this will know. She's a singer and a harpist, and they named whatever it was the day we were there, like the Tuesday or the Wednesday, it became Joanna Newsom Day.

Yeah.

Forever. She got the key to the city and and gave this riveting speech. And then, and then Mikayla was running for office while we were there. Then she won.

Yeah. Incredible. I'm from Northern California, so I love Nevada City. Love a gold mining town. Makes perfect sense to me that they're weird and hippie. It's fucking rad.

And we got to go— The Shins. Well, they got the whole The Shins together to do a thank you concert for Mikayla to 100 people. And I got to just basically walk right up to the very front of The Shins playing more or less a concert just for, for us. And it was amazing. I got to hang out with James Mercer, the lead singer, and all the band members. I think James and I are chums now, and it was very cool. We'll have an episode coming for everyone, but just give a little shout out. And this reminds me, all right, we're going to do it for like a couple of weeks more. The Shins are going on tour with Weezer and Silver Sun Pickups, and it starts in September and it's big. And we need you to leave more comments and likes on Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to this. And if you— whoever leaves the best one from our judgment will get 2 tickets to this concert. And, um, you know, from what I saw, They are prepared. They're prepared to play.

I just decided I need to make a playlist of my favorite songs from all of these groups because I really love The Shins and Silver Sun Pickups. I listened to them so much in college. Weezer was my entire middle school experience. I am stoked to go to this concert and you guys should listen to their music. So I'm going to make a playlist of my favorites.

I have also been digging in on The Shins since hanging out with them.

How could you not?

They're so good. All right, pod friends, I am here to tell you about SendCutSend. They are a manufacturing phenomenon. Whether you're working on your own car or you're a giant automotive company, a rocket maker, if you need metal cut, machined, or bent, you're going to SendCutSend. They'll do it for you right, and they will do it for you fast. Go to sendcutsend.com/corememory for a 15% discount. On whatever you're trying to make. We love SendCutSend. Go visit them today. Where should we go next?

Rocket Land.

You can go Rocket Land. It was probably, I want to say, about a week for, uh, whatever, who knows when this will come out, but recently a Blue Origin New Glenn rocket exploded on the pad at Cape Canaveral. This is always terrible news, um, when a rocket explodes so violently on the pad because it creates Tons of damage. It's also extremely bad timing for Blue Origin. They were, after many years of going much slower than SpaceX, had just started to hit their stride. Yeah, it looked like maybe SpaceX would have a genuine competitor on the horizon. I think they still will, but this is problematic because historically it's taken anywhere from a year to 2 years to rebuild all the infrastructure you need to redo this rocket. Blue Origin's CEO David Limp was saying he hopes to fly by the end of the year. Eric Berger, who's one of the best space reporters around for Ars Technica, interviewed a bunch of space— SpaceX went through a pretty similar thing. Oh, I forget the year. I want to say it was like 2012 to 2014, somewhere in there. SpaceX had had a few successful launches of the Falcon 9, then they had this brief really bad run where two blew up in pretty quick succession. Same thing, they had major pad damage. And it was one of those moments where it was like, oh, okay, maybe you guys can't actually do this. And Facebook had a satellite on one of those rockets and Zuckerberg was really shitting on Elon about it all. It was a bad public relations thing on top of everything. And I don't know if it was full-on life or death moment, but it was probably if they had had one more explosion in that window, it could have very well been because you start to just lose all trust. People aren't gonna give you money. Um, and maybe you just don't have things figured out. And so Blue had finally hit this moment. It was very exciting. We, everybody wants to set up satellites. Now we're doing data centers in space.

Yeah.

We need lots of rockets. There's, there's really not still that many rocket companies that figured this out. And so this is, this is, this is kind of like bad news for Blue. It's very good news for SpaceX. It's probably good news for Rocket Lab. They are coming with their Neutron rocket that's a bit smaller than what SpaceX and Blue Origin are doing, but Rocket Lab has this great track record and, and people just need rockets. And so it looked like for a minute it looked like Blue might kind of outflank Rocket Lab too, just, just in terms of having resources and this, this big rocket. And so yeah, bad news for, uh, Jeff Bezos and crew.

In my neck of the world of people my age who hate technology, I saw a lot of people saying like, fuck Jeff Bezos, I'm so glad this blew up, blah blah blah, they just think it's a rich guy's hobby, which I totally get. And if I wasn't, you know, sitting across from the guy who did the book, I maybe I would think the same, but You know, I also think of sort of the parallel between that recent space mission with NASA, Artemis.

Yeah.

And how excited we were for humanity and our future. And like, that really hit home. But we see something like this, we're like, oh, you know, that rich guy, who cares? And it's just really interesting because we, we do need rockets. We do need this innovation. It is incredibly important. And I do think some of the richest people in the world should be the ones backing it.

Well, people get confused sometimes because Blue Origin does have the space tourism portion, which is the New Shepard rocket. And then, and then it has this, which is New Glenn, which is all the things you were talking about. This is much more on the industrial, if you want to go that way, patriotic end of sending up things the US very much would like to have in space, whether it's military or infrastructure. And it is essentially SpaceX versus China. Right now unless Rocket Lab, Blue Origin all come along as well.

Does China send up a lot of rockets? I actually have no idea.

They do. So I mean, they have a relatively young space program in the big scheme of things, but then now have become the clear number 2 in all this. All— and it really is SpaceX versus China. China's been catching up extremely rapidly. They have government-backed rocket companies and then they have these quasi SpaceX, where it's like a private company, but it's kind of like owned by the government, and the rockets look awfully similar to SpaceX's rockets. And but on things like reuse, SpaceX still way ahead, Blue Origin even ahead, although China is catching up. And then they're willing to do the stuff that we're only rhetorically willing to do, and then, and then maybe financially, which is, you know, they are hardcore moon and, and want beat the— and will— they will beat the US back to the moon with a person. I mean, the US says they won't, but they will. And, and so that's going to be a— even though we've been there before, it's going to be this massive PR hit for the United States. And so Trump— everyone's been desperately— this is what people want to find a way to help the US get a human to the moon before China. But it would take a miracle of timing and China's been working on this faster, and then they're doing exploration too. So the US still, because of SpaceX— SpaceX does more launches than the rest of the world combined, and then plus multiple times. And then, but China's second after that. It used to be Russia, and then Russia's space program has been undermined by both corruption and obviously the war, and the war has cut off a lot of customers for them, but still very strong. Europe launches about usually like one rocket a month. Um, don't leave Canada. I'm like, a good year. Canada's coming. You've got Japan, India— those are other space powers— and then New Zealand because of Rocket Lab.

Um, why does it matter that China would get to the moon first on this next go-around?

People are divided on this because it's like, we did it so many decades ago, and so it's kind of like, uh, you're just doing what we've already figured out. But I think because it's just, you get seen as being innovative, pushing the limits. This is, we're going to this next stage of, we're not just going to the moon to stand on it for a few minutes, but we wanna make a colony there.

And NASA put out a thing that we're gonna have a moon base and you were like, no, we aren't.

Well, we will, we just won't. I don't know if NASA will be the one who actually, yeah. Builds it. I mean, they'll try, but I, I, I think if we were gonna bet on things, we would wanna bet on the, on the companies. But I think it's really that, that next era of the moon. And if this is gonna be some strategic industrial kind of thing, it's like if China gets there first and they're really doing stuff, they're not gonna be real happy when it starts all this crap all over again. This, this like territorial. And so I think the moon went from a science project this curiosity, this, you know, public relations, we can get there to becoming much more of like an economic and strategic sort of thing. And so, so that's the big deal. And that's just, yeah, it's going to look bad because the US, I think if the US had been like, oh, we don't even want to go back there, we're like all Mars or something, and China's doing like the old thing, maybe they could have saved face that way. But we did, we said we want to go back too, and now we're gonna, we're not gonna get there before them. So yeah.

Did you get into rockets similarly how I feel about hardware right now, where I'm like, no one's covering this?

I mean, I was— it was really— I started— well, I just got interested in Elon out of— people forget. I mean, Elon had been— he'd kind of like been a thing because of PayPal, and then he was a thing when he first announced SpaceX and Tesla. But that was around like early 2000s and then kind of like 2008, SpaceX flew its Falcon 1 successfully for the first time and Tesla was trying to make the Roadster. And so it was like, oh, this Elon guy, he's doing all this crazy sci-fi stuff. But then there was this like long period of time where nothing was really working. The Roadster had all these delays. SpaceX was a little more quiet. And so by the time like 2012 came around, Then I got, I just kind of got into like, oh, I didn't really, I had never covered Elon as like a beat or like he, he wasn't like, um, um, unknown to me, but I, I really didn't know that much. And then I decided I wanna do a magazine story. And so I went to SpaceX to interview Elon in his, I guess it was like a giant cubicle. I was in office and, and then I was, I was like, holy shit, this is, not what I was expecting. I, it's, it was in Los Angeles, right by LAX.

Yeah.

So you're like, you're in the heart, you know, this was not just some weird remote outpost. It was like right in the heart of the city. And I totally thought it would be like one rocket and there'd be a few people trying to get this thing. And this factory was just like full of rockets and thousands of people. There's like heavy metal music. You just feel this palpable energy. And so I was already hardware-pilled, and then this felt like the apex of hardware-ness. Yeah. Like, oh, this is, this is cool. This is— I did not— I don't know, you hear some rich person trying to take on NASA. I was just as skeptical as anyone, you know.

No, there's nothing more tantalizing than the manufacturing floor.

Yeah. And this was, this was on this, this grand— I mean, it was just, it was just way bigger and cooler than anything I'd expected. And so then, no, because I was just not a space dork. I knew nothing.

Yeah.

And I just got into rockets.

Yeah, that's like, I think, another thing that's made me so excited about this beat. Like, I didn't— I don't necessarily— didn't necessarily like choose to cover hardware, but once you go to these factory floors, it's so different from a software company. Like, I won't name them, but you just go to their office and it's like sort of 2012 beanbags and chips. But these manufacturing floors, it's just guys covered in grease and, you know, building stuff, blasting music. And you can actually touch and hold like the first prototype, what they're building now. You can click it together if you want. And it's just like, wow, this is fucking rad.

I've won. You have.

You have.

No, I mean, you're 100%. I think you're totally right. The— there's some awesome software and there are cool stories to be had, but there's, there's something, especially as a reporter, is just get to like hang on to a physical thing. It just, it feels real.

And it's a real deep feeling.

Yeah.

It's like, wow, this is just, I don't know, rich.

That's it. And the people are working hard and they are, you wrote a, it was your lead on your story.

Yeah. They're very humble.

They're just a different breed. Yeah. It's just software can get, I guess all of it can get a little repetitive, I suppose. But I feel like—

And a little uptight.

Yeah. You know, and you're just having your, You're having your lunch at their fancy office and yeah, it's sort of—

it makes you a little comatose after a while, which, you know, I— again, I— there's no love lost for software. It's just when you enter the hardware world, it's like, wow. And it's like guys you can have beers with and, you know, just talk shop. I don't know. It's just a different feeling.

You haven't even blown shit up yet. Oh, you did? Well, you can sort of— you almost—

well, and with the Astromechanica.

Yeah, yeah.

That was an engine test. But no blowing shit up. Not yet.

That's the, that's, that's the key. Uh, and then, okay, so related to all this space stuff, SpaceX announced they, I think there was like a FAA, um, filing that went out. So they have this, this Starfall capsule. This really caught my attention. It looks like, um, people have to go hunt a little bit to find these, these pictures of this thing, but it's essentially sort of a, a laboratory you would put into orbit. It reminded me a lot of a startup called Varda. Mm-hmm. And we've written about Varda. They are, okay, there's this thing that happens in low Earth orbit, which is fascinating, which is that atoms arrange themselves in different ways than they do on Earth without gravity pressing against them. They go in these very precise formations. And we've known for many years and have proven that you can make medicines, different chemicals than you can on Earth. Yeah. But the problem has been the only place you could really do these experiments was on the ISS. And it was like Procter Gamble or some scientists would pay for some astronaut to like fiddle with some atoms and—

fiddle with some atoms.

Yeah. But, you know, and they proved— they proved this works. But then it was like, what do you— How do you make this bigger? And so Varda's whole bet was we'll make, um, essentially like a biotech lab, um, that's pretty big in low Earth orbit. And then we'll, they send up, they go run the experiment, they mix up the chemicals, they try to make a medicine. So there's been a lot of medicines that have failed that were promising, but then they, like their shelf life was bad. It was, it was like Earth was, uh, you could see all the promise of, of the molecules, but then they had flaws. And so Varda's been trying to take these compounds to space and see if, if in this different environment, maybe we can get around this. So they do all the experiments, they make the chemical, the molecule, and then they bring it back to Earth. They kind of like freeze it in time and then they bring it back to Earth. And so Varda's flown maybe like 5 or 6 times, which is actually pretty good. They've gone a lot faster than most space startups do. They are backed by Founders Fund. Founders Fund is one of the biggest backers of SpaceX. I find this interesting that now SpaceX is more or less saying, hey, we're gonna get into this business too. And, and this is all stepping stone towards manufacturing in space. So you start with chemicals and molecules, but you're more or less sending up this laboratory, this mini factory into low Earth orbit and trying to see what you could do. People also think you can make, um, semiconductors differently in space that we could like make chips. There's this hope of like all these things that you could make.

That is sick.

It's pretty sick.

I did not know anything about any of this. That's dope.

It's been, it's just been really hard for all the reasons you would expect is, is like somebody has to build all the stuff, you gotta like fly it up and down and get it back and it's gotta go through the Earth's atmosphere.

And so SpaceX is doing exactly that.

They're getting into it. I, I, Deleon, who's the, you know, one of the co-founders of Varda, is very outspoken on X. I, I didn't check to see if he had tweets about this SpaceX Starfall capsule. The— it, it reminded me that SpaceX has been so focused on— the core of its business was sending up satellites really for other companies and countries. So it did that for many years. Then the run of the last 2, 3, 4 years has been doing that, but also setting up a lot of its own satellites for Starlink. And then Mars was always looming in the back as the, the main mission, which was about setting up a colony. And then SpaceX ignored all the other things that startups were nipping at, which would be space habitats, things like this, making factories and things that Jeff Bezos talked about a little bit more, but also was not doing yet. And now I just wonder, as they become a public company, are they going to trample over everyone in every one of these businesses? We have an episode coming on Vast Space, which is making a commercial space station, and it will be flying on a SpaceX rocket and then in tandem with the Dragon capsule that takes the people to this. So they're kind of like a partner.

Wow.

But, and all this stuff costs money. I don't, I don't even know that, I mean, it's Elon and SpaceX is about to raise a ton of money, so maybe they could do all these things. Each one these things is like a multi-billion dollar project, and, and you don't know if it's actually going to be a going business. But I do know when I saw that, I'm like, oh man, I just— I saw this as a signal that SpaceX is kind of like, we would also like to get into these industries.

That's a good thing.

It's a good thing for SpaceX. It's probably a terrible thing for everybody else because SpaceX, unless something changes, just wins because they have the rockets.. And none of these other companies have rockets. They're all looking for rides. Yeah. And so SpaceX can turn up and turn down historically, like in competing against Starlink, um, SpaceX would even fly. So OneWeb is a competitor to Starlink. Amazon has been trying to compete. SpaceX would fly their competing satellites for their space internet. Wow. Because it was happy to take their money, basically saying, I don't think you can actually compete with us, but like, if you want to give us money for a ride, we'll take it. And then now they've been cutting that off. And so Blue Origin, for the reasons we talked about before, Amazon's trying to build a competitor to Starlink. You would think it would fly on Blue Origin's rockets because it's like all in the Jeff Bezos family. They were going to fly on Soyuz rockets. They can't because we can't fly in Russian. Rockets with the war going on. They've been really limited and they will remain rate limited on how many satellites they can put into orbit. Even worse now with this explosion. And then, you know, if you're Varda, um, you're probably fine for the foreseeable future. Rocket Lab is coming with Neutron. It's bigger rocket. But anyway, no, I mean, this is, this is like people are so far from— I should give numbers because people don't know all this stuff. I mean, traditionally, like, a government— the government rockets have been the what, how you got to space. And, and almost everyone— a great year was one a month, was like, so 12 a year. I mean, SpaceX is up at like somewhere between 160, 190. They're flying almost every 2 days.

Whoa.

Yeah. So this is, this is drastically different. And. And so if you wanna ride on any of this stuff, you're beholden to SpaceX. And we can't— American companies can't use Chinese rockets. Russian rockets are grounded.

Mm-hmm.

Europe hardly ever flies. You can go to India. You're just very limited on your options. So, um, so we'll see what happens as SpaceX gets in into— I think this is the Rocket Lab is a little behind now on its Neutron rocket. If they are able to fly that and start getting closer to flying all the time, the life could be pretty good because Rocket Lab is very neutral.

Yeah.

And willing to help people out.

It's funny, I'm thinking about my second week at Core memory, which was I was hanging out with you in the office and we were talking about the HBO Wild Space. I hadn't seen it. I went home and watched it. I was like, this is funny. I was just with my boss all day and now he's on my fucking laptop. I'm sorry. But no, it was also awesome because I could just text you like, oh my God, this is crazy and this is crazy. But when that rocket— did it blow up? It didn't reach the orbit it was supposed to reach.

The first Rocket Lab rocket?

Yeah. Yes. Oh my God. That was the most heartbreaking thing I'd ever seen because they were just so close. You're so on that founder's side and then just Screwed.

Yeah, I will. Yes. I feel like I've been prattling on about space, but that one was Peter Beck is a perfectionist. Nobody ever gets a rocket right the first time. He was very much going to get a rocket right. The American regulators, the safety officers who were there to monitor the situation, I believe if I remember right, installed their software wrong. And so the rocket was not— they didn't see it where it actually was, so they blew it up. And otherwise, Peter Beck pretty much would have been the first person in history to get it right.

Like mere seconds or something. He was so close. It was so messed up. Yeah. Yeah. What is it, rocket science? Can't be that hard.

Because it was just— that was just software. Software bug. Yeah. This is what— this is the problem. The software people show up.

I know. Messing everything up.

Okay. Well, that's all I have to prattle on about SpaceX, although I will say the IPO still. Oh my God.

Shall we? The IPO.

We talked about it a little last time. I think now I've had time to marinate. I mean, these numbers are insane. The— there is— if you are a— if you're like a purely rational investor, you should not in any way, shape, or form be participating in this SpaceX IPO. When you look at like the revenue versus profits versus valuation, there would've been nothing like this in history. The only reason this makes sense and the reason there's this premium is the Elon of it all. However, if you go to all the things we just talked about, there is actually some scenario. I mean, this is a long-term bet that you're making, but it's, it's a bet on what I wrote about in my last book. So I do believe in this, that there's a giant economy to be built in low Earth orbit and beyond., and I'm just always skeptical on the timescale of where that plays out. Will we have data centers in space? Yes. Uh, one day, will we have tons of data centers powering the immediate AI boom in space? That seems far-fetched to me.

Um, shall I give some statistics for our, uh, listeners? SpaceX has set its IPO price at $135 a share, aiming for a record-breaking valuation of approximately $1.7 $7.7 trillion, right?

So, and this is like, okay, I mean, we only have a handful of companies valued at a trillion dollars. NVIDIA is a hardware company. All the rest are essentially software or services, which is what you would expect. I mean, it is hard to say that like a hardware company doing rockets, which is is not even like a very profitable hardware business. But yeah, so, you know, you have to look at things like Starlink, which is a telecommunications subscription service. That's good. That makes sense. Data centers would fall. Anyone who makes money in space, you make it from doing a service in space. And so, so like there is a world where all this makes sense. If SpaceX, you know, if these businesses take off, it is unclear that like really any other rocket maker would be there to compete. And so maybe SpaceX just has a monopoly over every everything happening in space, would that be worth $2 trillion? Probably. I mean, maybe, you know, if we're like, would that happen in 3 years? Maybe like 20, I think. Um, and that even seems optimistic. I don't know. So, um, you know, the Elon is able, but that's sort of the thing is like he is able to plant that seed of possibility that this actually could happen.

Unlike anybody else, it's so funny to see this trajectory because I was covering the Elon of it all for Twitter at Fortune. And it's so weird because now that's a part of SpaceX. Twitter is— I don't know what happens there. Is it just for, you know, training data? But yeah, the Elon of it all.

It's— there's still Still, whether you guys like it or not, nobody like him for all that. Yeah. Anyway, I mean, I mean, it's funny because I covered space for so long and it's just, it's, there's a couple businesses that have worked and they've been great, but all the rest of the stuff, it's just like a graveyard of lost hopes and dreams and money. So to be betting all in on this is a lot.

The first time I learned about keyman risk was Elon. I was just thinking, I mean, he's not old, but he's getting up there. And, you know, this is a very, very long-term bet. So you're really betting on Elon at the end of it.

I mean, that guy— well, I don't want to say it. He lives a stressful life.

He does. I'm thinking of the key man risk. If you're betting on the Elon of it all, I don't know anyone who could replace him, quite honestly, like him or not.

SpaceX Quinn Shotwell has run it so well, but it's all those, those ancillary things you're taught. It's the mystique, it's the taking insane risk and yeah, and finding insane amounts of capital. I guess he might never have to do this again as far as like IPO.

Yeah.

Having it, well, just having to talk people into the, the vision to, to take that next big giant gamble because Tesla's already public.

Every earnings call once a quarter.

Yeah, but I mean, you're getting like your pile of money from the IPO and then it's kind of like it's just nice to have the stock price up to keep employees happy and stuff like that. But you're not going to get your bag. I mean, this is, this is, this is his last bag because he's put all the companies into—

I don't think he needs more bags.

I mean, he always seems to. There's always like another, another thing. I guess eventually I'm sure Tesla and SpaceX merge into some, yeah.

Yeah.

Mike Solana is a genius. And so he works at Founders Fund and did this great thing where They're playing Mafia and they got together like just the all-star.

Have you played Mafia?

I've played Mafia with my family, but like once or twice and not— yes.

So it's a very tech employee game. Like I was only introduced to it through the tech world and I'm bad at lying. It scares me.

How does it— remind me how it works.

So Mafia. So I watched this episode last night, the Founders Fund put out of all these all-stars playing, uh, Mafia, and it goes something like this. There is a sheriff, there is an angel, there are 3 mafia people, and then the rest are just townsfolk.

The goal—

so it's kind of like Heads Up, 7 Up. You close your eyes and the MC will be like, okay, all the mafia wake up. Who do you want to kill? And they all agree to kill one person, and then they go to sleep. And then, um, the angel wakes up. Who do you want to save? Angel tends to save themselves just so they can continue playing. They go to sleep. Sheriff wakes up and it's like, who do you want to interrogate? And everyone goes to sleep. And then, you know, someone dies. He's like, so-and-so died in a mine explosion. Uh, who did it? Who's the mafia? And then they all get to interrogate each other. They choose people they think are the mafia. They get 15 seconds to plead their case, and then they get to vote the person off. So, uh, Founders Fund did this with people like Sam Altman, Palmer Luckey, uh, Trey Stephens— Stevens?

Stevens. Bryan Johnson. Um, just an all-star cast of, uh, the, the co-founder of Signal, the, um, Dylan Field from Figma, and, um, Moxie Marlinspike was there, the, the co-founder or inventor of Signal. He's He's a total character. Um, it was kind of like who you would want— all people who pride themselves on their intellect. They're— a bunch of them are, um, trying to find the right word.

I mean, are, are like into strategy and gameplay, and they're executives, they're investors, they're people who know how to do game theory and talk about it a lot.

That's kind of— they do game theory like in their life.

Yeah. And so to see, to see Sam there We're all expecting him to be a mafia person and lie through his teeth.

A master of game theory. And then Palmer. Palmer plays D&D every Sunday. He has done it for many, many years. A little different, but he— and then I remember I played Magic with Trey one time. I mean, Founders Fund is really into all this, all this competitive stuff. And Mike came up with this idea. It's genius. I'm so jealous. I wish I'd thought of this.

It was so good. I was skipping it because I was like, oh, I don't know, like, I don't want to watch a bunch of CEOs talk. Thinking it would be like a boring panel sort of deal, but it was so entertaining, and I won't ruin it for who won and how it went, but watching these people like sort of lie— that's the game— and just become incredible actors, it was, it was so good. And there's more episodes coming out.

It was very well done. I love to see Brian Johnson has evolved so much over the years. He's quite funny and charismatic. He used to be a little shyer and buttoned up. I enjoyed seeing him doing that.

They— I, I guess it won't ruin to tell you who everyone was because that's what they first— the cards that they're dealt. Um, Trey was Mafia, Brian was a Townsperson, so was Palmer. Um, Dylan Field was the Sheriff, um, the signal inventor was the Angel. And yeah, uh, Brian and Palmer— Brian was a little bit more quiet and people were like, oh, you're Mafia? And he's just like, bye. You know, sort of Constitution, a little bit more reserved. But yeah, it was so cool.

Um, awesome. Uh, anyway, I want to check that out. And, um, I wanted to take a brief moment to talk about 60 Minutes.

Oh, my boss stepped in it.

I lost what appears to be some number of thousands of Twitter followers with my take on 60 Minutes, which did get a little hostile. I, I— it was late night and I I'll explain. Okay.

60 Minutes is so— 60 Minutes, the, the television show I used to watch with my grandma when I was younger. Uh, they have new management. Paramount hired, uh, Bari Weiss to lead the, the program, to lead CBS and the program. And she just hired Nick Bilton, who's gonna be their new producer. But they've had a lot of tumult. They have gone through a lot of their correspondents, their on-air anchors. They have been fired or they have quit. Their last executive producer either was fired or quit. So it's been really, really, you know, tumultuous. And, uh, Scott Pelley, one of the last standing correspondents and someone you would recognize as like the 60 Minutes guy, he was fired by Nick Bilton and Bari Weiss. And they put out this statement saying like, he was not willing to work with us. It was clear he didn't wanna be a part of this team, so we had to let him go., and people were up in arms about it. I had texted Ashlee Vance like, this is crazy.

And then, wow. Yeah. Well, yes, there's a lot of things going on here. I mean, people think Bari is, has been Trumpified and, and Trump's done all this stuff to CBS and, and, and Larry Ellison, he hated 60 Minutes, owns it. David Ellison now owns Paramount and, well, everything really. Yep. Um, and so, Clearly the thinking is they will become stooges of, of this, uh, administration. 60 Minutes is the— meant to be the highest form of journalism that we have left. And, and so, and then, okay, here's what I— here's where I diverge. I get all that. I get all that. And that is, that is, it's, it's grim if that happens. I think Nick Bilton, I've worked with him. We worked together at the New York Times. He's a friend. Um, so whatever, take that with— for all it's worth. And I just don't think he— there's just— I know he's not an ideologue, and there's no evidence that he's an ideologue. Okay, if Bari's his boss and she's giving some commandment that things have to be this way, okay, you know, I fully see that. I see them firing these people. Scott Pelley wrote this letter that he said they were trying to make him put falsehoods into stories. Is all of that alarming? Yes, it is. It was Seemed a little, I, you know, maybe I took this too personally. I don't know. I just think Scott had this huge tirade against Nick.

Mm-hmm.

On his first day. I just don't think Nick, I just don't think you were gonna assume that he is, he is some, uh, toady for these people.

Yeah.

There's, he's not like that. He's, he's, there's no evidence of that. Nick is ambitious. He's got an ego. He's gonna wanna like make his mark. I don't know. That doesn't mean he's gonna do better than what was there before, but he will try to do something original.

That was a huge point of contention was his lack of experience. People were really dogging on that.

Yeah, but you know, Nick has been like really entrepreneurial with his career, and, and I, I do— yes, okay, so they're talking about his experience. The dude has written like bestselling books that were really well reported. He's like not naive to what it takes to report a story. This was my other contention, is that I appreciate everything that 60 Minutes has done. God knows I celebrate a reporter that's like willing to put their life on the line, people that are going to spend all the time to really report something out and fact-check it. Please understand I'm not trying to undermine that. I also find it to be— it's a little too precious. I mean, they've done lots of good stuff, but it's like we're holding this up like it's okay. First of all, when they do those stories, it's fantastic. Most of their stories are not that. They're very formulaic. It's somebody has a sit-down interview, Scott Pelley takes a little slow stroll with someone for like 20 feet, and then they go on a little bit of a field trip. I, I find it all pompous and Um, I find Scott Pelley quite pretentious in his delivery of things. I think it hasn't changed in a long time. They always get celebrated cuz they have such great ratings. It's like they follow CBS Sunday Football, which is the biggest thing you could possibly be attached to.

Yeah.

In this era. Like if you actually think that 60 Minutes on its own in a, in a moment when TV is just fading into oblivion would be some money spinning, juggernaut of ratings, I think you're insane. And so like the idea that they want to maybe change things up a little and put some new energy into the show, I just, I do not find that offensive.

So where I empathize with your argument is that we both came from sort of the gray lady institutionalized media world, and both of us aren't so precious and don't take things so seriously. We take our reporting seriously, but we don't take ourselves so seriously. Right. And so we're both kind of allergic to that pompous energy and people saying like, well, we need to keep that because that is like what real journalism is and how dare this guy come in and change that. I empathize with that being really annoying of an argument. What, what I get is the whole Trumpification of it all and firing Scott Pelley is like kicking a puppy in front of all of America. It's just like you It's like, why would you kick the puppy in front of all of America when you're trying to like sort of unify this network and get it all back together when there's been drama completely fragmenting it? So many people are leaving. There was reporting that the whole staff could quit after this. It's like, dude, that was an unforced error. But I agree with like the sort of the pompous energy. It's like, dude, like media is different. We can be different. We can approach it differently. It doesn't have to be this age-old thing that's like, you know, so precious. I get that, and I really empathize with that opinion, and I agree. But yeah, it was an unforced error.

I mean, they run like, you know, every ad that runs against 60 Minutes is some pill that you take when you're like 70 years old. I, I, the, it's, I just do not believe, I, I, I, I think they have convinced themselves that they're, they're doing a much better job than they, they probably are. I know the salaries and the expenses of this thing must be so bloated and tied to, like, we've already been through this in in print journalism, which is like, there are no magazine jobs that used to exist where you just got to go off for like 4 months and stay in a 5-star hotel and then report your like 2 stories.

I miss this whole fucking era. And I worked at 2 magazines.

I will tell you, I was the last person to do it. God. But I set expense report records. This does not happen anymore. And I think there, because they have been— because they are iconic and they were like holding on to that last spot. I'm sure that cost structure is still in place. And I honestly believe they're sort of protected by this football thing and where they sit. And so the idea that Scott Pelley is getting paid $5 million a year and is somehow at like 68— I'm sorry, irreplaceable as a talent. I don't think he's that talented. I'm sorry. I just don't. I mean, I appreciate everything. They've done. I just, I think this is way too precious. What I did not expect, my God, was like the—

you kicked the puppy, man.

Dude, people are emotionally attached to the show. So maybe everything I'm saying is wrong, but the— oh my God, people are like sending me death threats. They're like, unfollow. I'm like, it's just an opinion on a fucking TV show.

What I didn't really understand is just how inflamed this argument has gotten over 60 Minutes. I used to watch this this with my grandma in the summer, like it was nothing. I would fall asleep during it, you know. It's— people are very precious about it. I think it's sort of, you know, a symbol of how screwed everything really is. And it's like, it's the one thing you can attach to and be like, dude, like, we can uproar about this, but them making a boxing ring at the White House right now is just so ridiculous that none of us can process it. But this, it's like like, how dare you, how dare you, you know, infringe on our entertainment and our journalism. I agree with the whole, you know, is he irreplaceable? Um, you just can't— you just gotta read the room when people are inflamed and just not poke the bear. But you like poking the bear.

Yeah, I was pretty happy to poke it on that one. I did not expect some of the, the severity of the backlash. I remember when I wrote for the New York Times. This is what 60 Minutes reminds me of. It's like when you're writing for the front page of the Times It's in some ways the most prestigious thing you can do while you're there and the worst experience. Because if I was writing for the business section, it was mostly me and one editor really doing like the vast majority of the work.

Mm-hmm.

The story was like the story that I wanted to tell. Yeah. More or less. By the time it gets to the front page, you've had, it's like, there might be like 12 people have had their way with this. It has to read to like the widest possible audience. It becomes like a caricature of the story you're originally trying to tell. By nature of it being on the front page, it cannot have the detail that you had set out to do. And so you feel like you're kind of like— it's the pro side of, okay, as many people as possible now are aware of this thing that I cared enough about to report on. This— the downside is it's the jokey, you know, worst version of the way I would have told the story. I almost don't recognize it.

Yeah.

60 Minutes, any time they've reported anything that I know anything about, it feels like that. And I get it. They have to speak to like everybody. So you cannot be talking about, you know, actuators on some crazy deep down detail. You have to do the most basic version of that.

I just imagined them doing the actuator story.

Yeah.

You know, this is a motor.

This This is the one component of the US tonight.

60 Minutes.

But so, so I get it all. I get it all. I, I, I'm at this point where it's, it's like, okay, well, I mean, because there is power in that, is it is important. You have to like reach people where they are. You want, it's like the closest thing I guess we still had to that. That era when the country— there were so few networks that like everybody kind of knew something. Yeah. And but, you know, then when I— and maybe it's just me, it's not just me, it's just the way the world is heading. It's like when you— I'm like, is Scott Pelley better than some YouTuber who is actually nerding out on the thing? And you're, you're like, okay, if I care about this thing, I'm going to learn way more about what's actually going on. From this person sitting here for 40 minutes. It's, it's, it's like apples and oranges to a degree. It's also where the world has shifted. I think we're like people who are— 60 Minutes is still that thing where they're like telling you what's important.

Yeah.

Whereas the rest is kind of like, I'm into this, I'm going to go look for it. And 60 Minutes would be like the last place you would want to go to learn about imaging satellites or something. Because I remember them doing a story on Planet Labs and I was just like, this is This, this is very bad.

What are the grandmas and grandpas in the retirement homes gonna do? They're not gonna watch YouTube, right?

Okay, but so this is the problem. It's like, what is— what's the bet you're making then? So are you— you're just like keeping 60 Minutes around for as long as possible to sell those ads, keep those baby boomers fed with what they want? Or is CBS and Barry and Nick doing the right thing, which is like, there's this great institution, we have to find out what What's the next chapter? Are you telling me like in 20 years there's going to be a fucking clock ticking with somebody sitting there in a suit?

It kind of makes me sad to think that there won't be for some reason, even though like I am incredibly allergic to the legacy media of it all where, you know, my experience with magazines too, it's a completely stripped down version of your story to be palatable to CEOs in their 60s or whatever. And it's just like, this isn't the magic. This isn't the story I wanted to tell, or the story even at all. But there is something to be said of, like, you know, providing that information to a really, really general audience that we're allergic to, but there's clearly a market for. Um, but the reaction to it is— was so loud and overblown that was a little hard to understand.

Well, people see this as the last vestige. Yeah, of all these traditions. I, I just I, I see all that. I get it. Yeah, the crap that Trump's been doing with CBS and everything is, is like revolt. I don't want Trump anywhere near anything to do.

And I think that's the reaction, is they're like, oh wow, like Trump is just owning this network. They're taking the last vestige of truth, you know, that we have, and he's owning that and destroying that. That is completely a valid argument. But this, the specific Scott Pelley of it all was just a little intense. Your replies were insane.

They were, they were. I was like, you guys are putting way more energy and emotion into this than what was the little tweet that I crapped out in like 2 seconds as I was just barely thinking about this.

The moment I saw it, I was like, oh, oh buddy. And then the next day you're like, it's gotten a little attention. And I went and looked and I was like, holy crap, people want you dead.

I made into a Business Insider story.

Really?

What smart people are saying about this? I was like, oh God, was I? I, uh, yeah, I think I— even on that last point though, I mean, this is the thing, I, I feel like there is more garbage and things have gotten politicized in gross ways, but I think that's the central contention I'm making is that I think there's actually like more good stuff that never existed. Like, it used to, like, just be 60 Minutes.

Yeah.

Now you have all these really clever people who are super into stuff doing actually way better. I just think there's options now. I just, I just, I don't think— I don't know.

We're very biased because there is a very specific reason I'm not at any, you know, legacy media outlet. Like, I was just telling someone at the Times because they were saying there was an open role, and I was like, they would kill me with rocks. Like, I could not be happy and thrive there and write my actuator story in the way that I would want to because we're doing something new and we get to do it on our own terms. And we both experience like the uphill battle of getting these weird stories in print. So, you know, we're just sort of biased in that way. I think 60 Minutes should survive. I would love to see it in 20 years still clock ticking just because it reminds me of my childhood. But I think the reaction to it is just like not even grounded in reality whatsoever.

Yeah. I wonder if that will happen.

In 20 years? Yeah. I don't think so at this rate. We'll start doing it.

This week.

On Core Memory, the hour.

The hour. I did see somebody.

I saw that tweet.

That was the other thing. Someone's like, Scott Pelley's just going on YouTube like Katie Couric and Megyn Kelly. And I was like, I know you like Scott Pelley.

Yep.

Highly. I don't think people would follow Scott Pelley.

I'm not sure I would either.

And this is the other part of my argument. I do not think Scott Pelley is the talent. Maybe we all, um, it is, it's weird how when you, you're like one of those correspondents, that was the other thing. It always reminds me of, of the times where you're, you become a columnist like Murray Dowd or, um, Tom Friedman. Or what's the other guy, David Brooks? And you're just like locked in for like 50 years. It's like, do we just have to hear the opinions of these like 6 people? How many times can you have an opinion on things before you just run out? That is funny to me. I don't think these jobs should be institutional. I don't think they should be locked in for that. Like, I think Leslie Stahl does an amazing job. Do I just need to hear from her for like 40 fucking years?

Yeah.

No, I don't know.

That's another thing I'm a little biased about, is that I didn't go to journalism school. I studied tech. I've only been in this world. This is my version of journalism. I don't have a ton of high respect for TV anchors. Yeah, like, that's not like the pinnacle of journalism to me, except for like, you know, war correspondents, like, you know, going out there into the world and reporting on dangerous, scary, you know, topics. That's important. But just like a TV anchor is not my pinnacle of journalism.

So when they do those war stories, they got to put themselves in the danger. Yeah, gotta go through all the like grime and grit.

That's the peak of journalism, right?

And then you do the, the confrontational interview, and you got to be good at that. You gotta, you know, be able to pull it off. But to your point, it's the producers that are doing it.

Exactly, exactly.

By the time Scott Pelley's talking on camera, somebody else is— yeah, you know, found the story, reported out the story, arranged everything. And that part always bugged me.

It bugs me. What— I don't know, that was sort of— it's— I feel like it's quite obvious to everyone, but when I found that out, that they don't even do their own stories, I was like, wow.

No, I don't think it is. This is why everyone's like, oh, Scott. And then I'm like, uh, somebody else is, is doing a lot of the— he— you're, uh, you're like a Okay, you're not fully a meat puppet, but you're a bit of a meat puppet.

I am. See, we're, we're making things worse for ourselves, but that it, that's just my opinion, man.

I mean, I do this job. I had people can choose that, but like, we, we actually report out all our stories and, and, um, and to the on-camera stuff.

Yeah.

So anyway, sorry, Scott Pelley from Ashlee Vance. Highly's a fan.

I just, I don't like poking the bear. I see when things are inflamed, I'm like, never tweet, man.

Why is it? Yeah, no, I was willing. I was willing. Yeah. Anyway. All right. Um, I think they're the, you can't, I think if Nick had been a proven ideologue historically, then Scott's like overreaction in this initial meeting might've been justified. I just don't think you could come into the new guy who's probably actually well-intentioned and just try to like totally undermine him on— I feel like there's a different way to go about it.

So the first time an old white man paid him $5 million a year as a TV anchor has yelled at everybody above him. Is it the first time ever?

Well, just don't expect to like keep your job though.

They always do. I mean, like, it is just such an unforced error. You're entering the 60 Minutes legacy media zone and Scott Pelley's gonna yell at you. He's gonna call you an idiot. It's like literally the history of like TV anchors that are paid too much. Yeah. You know, that's just, that's just it. And then firing him for being subordinates, like, dude, Scott Pelley, he's gonna yell at you. He's gonna yell at you.

Well, I'm sure you'll be able to see 60 Minutes cover actuators here soon. Um, off we go. You should all read Kylie's story. Oh, and I don't mean to just be, uh, Atlas is sending us. Yes, I don't mean to be giving WestMag attention at the expense of Atlas. Um, we're neutral here, and they're sending us stuff.

I had tweeted that I'm, I'm stoked on all the little machinery items I get from my travels, and they message me, they're like, we're sending you stuff, don't worry.

Okay, amazing. Um, Kylie, thank you as always.

Thank you, Ashlee Vance.

We will have exciting things coming for you all. Kylie's working on scripts, it's gonna be appearing on the YouTube shortly. Um, as always, please check out our Substack, our YouTube channels, our podcast, leave the likes and reviews, and we love you all.

Love you guys.

The Core Memory Podcast is hosted by me, Ashlee Vance, and/or Kylee Robison, or both of us together. It is produced by me and David Mickelson. Our theme song is by James Mercer and Jon Sortland, and the show is edited always by the Jon Sortland. Thank you so much to Brex and SendCutSend for all your support, and thank you most of all to everybody for listening or watching. We love you. Please leave us a like, a review, a subscribe, all those tremendous things. Thank you, and we'll see you again.