47: The Gupta Program w/ Ashok Gupta

It is a good day, friends, and I welcome you to Our Power Is Within. I am your host, Chas Smith, aka Just Chas, and I am on a mission to inspire people to take their power back and help everyone to realize that each and every one of us has a healer within our own self. When we can create an environment that supports healing and get out of our own way, we are truly capable of healing in mind, body, and soul. Whether you've been following along this whole time or if this is your first episode, thank you so much for being on this journey with me. If you could please take a minute and help me spread the message of empowerment, healing, and possibility, it would mean the world to me. The simple ways that you can help support this podcast are by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or a 5-star rating if and only if I've earned it, or sharing your favorite episode on social media and tagging me @ourpoweriswithin. How did last week's challenge go? Did you try something new? I hope you had a lot of fun. I know I really did. Um, while I have played with my Para Ball before, I decided that this week I would watch some videos of new movements that looked challenging. And then I took my ball down to the beach and I practiced several different swings. I messed up a ton. I couldn't quite figure out some of the movements, and I laughed at myself through the whole experience. In my past, I would have been so afraid of trying these new exercises and movements because I knew I wouldn't catch on to them right away. And so The fear would have been in looking silly or someone seeing me mess up and judge me. Um, but you know what, through the growth work that I've done lately, I am just happy to report that it was actually so refreshing to just be outside and be out there and truly let myself play and make mistakes and fail my way to figuring some of the movements out joyfully and, uh, free of worry. Can you relate though? Have you ever been afraid of something new, trying something new just because you might not be good at it right away? Afraid that someone would judge you or you would look silly? I mean, I know it sounds super fun to just be great at everything right away, but honestly, I think life would be ultimately boring if there was never a learning curve. Um, yeah, who knows, maybe that's just me. You'll have to let me know what you think. Anyhow, our challenge today is regarding movement and neuroplasticity, and I am going to be challenging everyone to walk backwards every day. Yep, you heard me, walk backwards, and I do mean physically walk backwards and not metaphorically. Just like changing things up and using your non-dominant hand, walking backwards has the same impact on the brain. It is also really good because it's stimulating different muscles, um, differently than we're used to, and it has many other benefits. How long you choose to walk backwards is up to you. What's in your training zone? For me, I will walk backwards on any given day anywhere between 0 and 20 minutes. When I do my morning beach walks, I just occasionally flip around and I walk backwards along the water's edge. Maybe you can do it in your backyard, down a hallway, or out at a park. Maybe you start with 1 minute per day and you work your way up to 5, which can all be split up into smaller increments. I say do what's right for you, and most importantly, have fun with it. And if you do decide to walk backwards out in public, be prepared for some confused looks from other people. However, you just never know who you might be inspiring, and they might turn around and do it later themselves.

All right, so for today's episode, guys, I know I always say I am excited for the guests, and I am.

I am always excited because I have so many wonderful, talented, and inspiring, beautiful soul that I get to chat and connect with for this podcast and then share with you all, which is truly pure awesomeness. And here's the thing, today's guest I have been so incredibly excited and giddy about sharing with you from the moment he and I chatted. Our guest is Ashok Gupta. Some of you might already know this name, and you might be familiar with the fact that he is the creator of the Gupta Program, which is a brain retraining program that that has been around for more than 20 years now and has helped thousands of people recover from chronic pain and illness. Ashok is absolutely as amazing as I anticipated and maybe even more. For those of you that are familiar with him, then I believe you already know what I'm talking about. And for those of you who maybe this is a new name for you, I believe you will quickly see what I'm talking about as you listen. He has so much compassion radiating through him. He comes across in a very loving and kind way and is an inspiration to help us all learn to create joy in our life and to love and be patient with ourselves as we heal. He is truly a gift to this world and the chronic illness community in many, many ways. Today we talk so many things— brain retraining, learn all about healing, as well as have— how to have compassion and patience for ourselves along the way through our journey. If you have been down and out If you've been in pain, if you've been sick and you've been confused, not knowing what steps to take next, I would personally highly recommend and encourage you to check out the Gupta program. I am a huge fan. You will find links in my show notes, and you can also feel free to message me with any questions you might have. And with that said, I hope you enjoy today's episode.

All right, you guys, I have Ashok on the line, who is the creator and the founder of the Gupta program, and I am so excited to welcome him today.

So Ashok, welcome and thank you for being here with me.

Yes, it's wonderful to be here and thank you for inviting me.

Of course. Yeah, I'm so excited. I have lots of great questions that I know people are gonna also be excited to get to hear the answers to. Um, so jumping right into it, actually, I wanted to ask you, uh, this is a big one.

I want—

I'm curious, and I know many people I've talked to are very curious How does one go from having no program to creating a really wonderful program such as Gupta? Because I know that you had your own healing journey that you went through and you did a lot of research on your own quest. But how does, how does the program that you've created emerge from that experience?

Yes. So, I mean, if I just go through my story briefly, yeah, I suffered from ME and chronic fatigue syndrome. Around 25 years ago when I was studying at Cambridge University in the UK. And you know, you can imagine I was a young person, I had a whole— my whole life ahead of me, and suddenly there's a brick wall. Suddenly I'm told you're gonna have this illness forever, we don't know what causes it, and there's nothing we can do for you essentially apart from give you some antidepressants and tell you to go home. And that for me was a lifelong quest to try and understand these chronic conditions. And I said to myself, if I can get myself better, I'll spend the rest of my life trying to help others get better from this. And so I researched brain neurology, I read medical papers, I read various books and journals, and essentially came up with a hypothesis as to how I believe it's caused in the brain, in the unconscious brain. And so I published a medical paper retrain my brain ad hoc and got myself better. And this was kind of around 2000, and then went on to open a clinic to help others with the condition. So I've been doing this for 20 years now, and we've been refining and refining the program. And then I published the, the first neuroplasticity program, which was the Gupta Program, in 2007 online— sorry, as a DVD program. And then I We revamped the whole program in 2019, so it's all online now with webinars. And so yes, that's the journey from being ill to researching, publishing, and then setting up obviously the infrastructure around helping others.

Yeah, it's so impressive because we're all going— I mean, I feel like so many of us go through that journey and we're always doing all the research, but to actually be able to put all this different research that you had accumulated together and create something so wonderful is really quite impressive.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, of course. And you, you said you wrote a medical paper. Were you in school for something along these lines? Were you in medical school or was it just— did it— did this situation and this illness you found yourself in just catapult you into an entirely new direction?

Yes, I was self-taught, in fact. So obviously I did attend various courses in these, in these fields, but essentially my major was not in any kind of medical field. It was actually economics. And interestingly, economics, although it seems far away from what we're talking about, there are a lot of similarities in terms of understanding cycles because economics is actually very psychological as we're looking at the psychology of people and cycles in terms of unconscious cycles, conscious cycles. And that, I think, framed the situation for me. In terms of what might be the reactions between the brain and the body. And yeah, it was a real journey. I mean, I constantly am researching medical papers and it's— because it's this particular specialism, I've developed quite a lot of understanding about the brain neurology of these types of chronic illnesses.

Wow, that's awesome. And that's really neat how you were able to see the similarities because I've taken several economics classes and I totally understand what you're talking about. Um, and you— what was your original hypothesis then that you kind of built this off of?

Uh, yeah, so the, um, the core of this— so if I can just briefly go through the hypothesis— the core of this is the idea that, um, you know, if we ask the biggest question of all, why are we here, right? Uh, now obviously we can ask that from the philosophical perspective, but from a scientific perspective, we're here because over millions of years of evolution, this nervous system that we've inherited has evolved through plants and invertebrates, vertebrates, animals, mammals, to where we are now to adapt to the environment and survive so we can pass on our genes to the next generation. Yeah, so our brain, our nervous system, our body is a survival machine. That is its number one priority. And anything which threatens survival the brain will prioritize that particular issue, which makes sense, right? That makes sense totally from a scientific perspective. And now if we take a lot of these types of chronic conditions, let's take the example of ME and chronic fatigue syndrome, which is often triggered by some kind of infection, some kind of virus or bacterial infection. If somebody happens to be quite feeling quite weak a lot of stress in their lives, perhaps stress that's physical, mental, or emotional stress. Yeah, it doesn't always have to be emotional, can be physical stress. Their immune system is going to be weak, and that's something we know from psychoneuroimmunology, that the more stressed we are, the weaker our immune system. So imagine the brain is trying to fight off, uh, an infection, but it feels it's weak and it's only just managing to fight off this flu infection, let's say. And obviously the COVID pandemic has made us acutely aware that Many people every year do pass away from flu, yeah, so it is a life-threatening condition. So imagine the brain, it's fighting off this flu virus but just feels that it's losing the battle, so it goes into overdrive and continues to overstimulate the immune system to protect us and the nervous system. Now imagine it just manages to fight off the flu. A lot of this can happen without our even conscious awareness that this battle is going on. It leaves a legacy in the brain where the brain becomes traumatized. So we understand emotional trauma, but what we're saying here is there can be physiological trauma or physiological traumatic response that even once the virus is gone, our bodies are still responding as if the virus is here. And the key bit of neurology which is so important is the symptoms in our bodies which are caused not by the flu virus but actually caused by our own immune system, they become a trigger for our brains to believe we're still in a dangerous situation. So the symptoms in our bodies from our immune response come into our brain, our brain decides that these signals are reflective of still being in an infectious state, the presence of virus is still here, it then triggers the nervous system and immune system, which creates symptoms in the body. Because as I said, all the symptoms of flu, vast majority are caused by our own immune system. So that causes physical symptoms in the body, which loop back to a hypervigilant, hypersensitive brain, which creates a vicious cycle, which is why these illnesses then continue, because the input and output of the cycle have got interconnected. And for those of us who understand physics and mathematics, we know that cycles often occur where there's a feedback loop. Yeah, so this is the key thing. Our brains unfortunately have created a conditioned trigger. So before, the infection, uh, the flu was an indicator that we needed to trigger the defensive response. Now the legacy is any symptoms in the body are a conditioned trigger to make the brain believe that we're still in danger from that virus. And so it triggers the immune system and nervous system, creating this vicious cycle. So that's the— in a nutshell, the hypothesis.

Right. Okay.

And so this is essentially also how you just explained all this regarding the flu is essentially the same thing that is happening with long-haul COVID symptoms.

Yes, exactly. So we believe COVID-19— and obviously there's more research to be done— but COVID-19 is a potent trigger of a post-viral condition which people are obviously calling long haul or long haul COVID. And those symptoms are very similar to ME and chronic fatigue syndrome. And then in the case of fibromyalgia, the slight difference is that in fibromyalgia, the pain networks are activated. So you may start off with a car accident or a pain that's in the knee, for instance, and that pain the brain then generalizes to the entire body. So when it starts detecting any signals from anywhere in the body, it detects that and thinks, oh, this is indicative of some severe trauma in the body or physical injury, therefore my— I must inflame the entire body. It inflames the entire body by triggering the immune system, which creates pain and stiffness and all the other symptoms of fibromyalgia, which loop back to a hypersensitive pain network in the brain. It decides that this is, uh, still dangerous, then once again releases all of this inflammatory response around the brain and the body, creating a vicious cycle. And then finally, with, um, mold illness and chemical sensitivities, food sensitivities, the only difference there is that the conditioned trigger isn't something external. So rather than symptoms in the body being the conditioned trigger, actually it's something outside the body, such as a chemical or a food or presence of mold, which creates this vicious cycle.

Right. So, okay, how do you explain that or how do you understand or perceive why one person, Person A, gets, you know, COVID-19 and they heal right up and then they're back to living their life, no long-haul symptoms. But Person B, same thing, gets it, even seems at some point to have like a milder case, but then they have this lingering effect that what they label as long-haul COVID?

This is a very good question, and it is a— we know there are potentially some types of genetic vulnerabilities to these types of conditions, and those genetic vulnerabilities tend to be around the inflammatory response or the ability for the inflammatory response to be moderated. Yeah, so there can be some genetic vulnerabilities, but also For me, it is about the convalescence period. So how long does someone really allow themselves to rest whilst having the virus? And we've seen this time and time again with ME/CFS, that even if someone has it mildly, it doesn't mean that it's not a dangerous infection. And so many people that we've interviewed, we've often found that they have had the infection, but they've pushed themselves a bit too hard. Now, that's not to blame the patient, that's not their fault. It's just that they've had a lot of stresses in their lives at that particular time, or they've been working long hours, etc., etc. For others, there's been no characteristic that would indicate an increased chance of getting long-haul COVID. So it's all a bit of a mystery at the moment, but we certainly would say, from our understanding, it's very important that if people do get COVID-19, that they deeply rest and don't become complacent and push themselves too hard.

Yeah, that makes sense. Have you seen or witnessed— what about if they, you know, you get some people who are very afraid of it, who almost are because of the idea that it can linger. These could create fears within people. So when they get it, they become very fear-driven by it. Do you, do you, in your experience, do you think the fear could exacerbate the long-haul symptoms? Because it because of what it's doing to the brain?

We know that many illnesses have that characteristic, that if we are deep in fear, if we're deep in triggering our stress response, that makes it— it takes us longer to recover from an illness, it compromises the immune system. So there's no reason why that shouldn't also be the case with COVID as well, yes.

Okay.

And do you feel like, um, Maybe, you know, especially in the world of mold, food chemical sensitivities, why one person, you know, I've heard this story where two people like a husband and wife live in a house that may have mold. One person becomes gravely ill and the other person is just fine. Do you think that on some level there's— is it— do you think there's anything to do with the amount of trauma overall that the brain of one person has experienced versus the other? You know, maybe from years of built-up emotional trauma or other physical and chemical trauma, or do you think there's impact in that regard?

There could be, yes. Certainly in conditions like fibromyalgia, we know that there is more of a preponderance towards childhood trauma and things like that. And what we call this is the factory setting of the amygdala. So the amygdala is this almond-shaped structure, which is our defensive response, or it triggers the kind of fight or flight response, but is also involved in immune responses. And our— the experience of the mother during pregnancy can impact on the amygdala's factory setting. The birth experience can impact on it. Our childhood experiences, our traumas, what we observe, can all impact on the factory setting of the amygdala. So once we're an adult, it could be that a more sensitive person or a more sensitive brain is more prone to learning these kinds of conditioned responses as a part of an overall defense response. So, you know, in medicine, we generally tend to separate physical and emotional, right, or physical and mental, physical and psychological. But as far as the brain is concerned, these are all integrated defensive responses. So someone who's had more emotional trauma is probably more likely to trigger more immune, immunodefensive responses. And there is some evidence that people who have adverse childhood experiences are more prone to inflammatory conditions later in life, such as irritable bowel syndrome or inflammatory responses in general. So yes, there could be a link there. But it's very important to recognize that we're not saying that any of these conditions are psychological. These are real physical illnesses with real physical symptoms. It's just that the, the unconscious conditioning in the brain, we may be more prone to that from these kinds of adverse childhood experiences.

Right, right, right.

Yeah, and that's such a good thing to point out and, you know, understand that distinction because people— I know people can often misinterpret that message in some ways, or, you know, suggest that— and somebody might be suggesting that it's not real physical illness, even though in a sense we can heal it without sometimes, you know, physical, without addressing just the physical being.

Yes, yes, exactly. And some people, um, you know, get better from these conditions, and that's the hope that I want to give to everybody. Some people get better from these conditions just naturally, where the brain eventually decides that, um, you know, it's no longer dangerous, and therefore somehow, in some way, um, the conditioning is stopped and people come back to normal. That can be from supplements or changes in diet. But for those people where it persists past 6 months or a year, that definitely indicates then that there's something that's been rewired in the brain that needs further rewiring.

Okay, that's good, that's good to know. So if people are getting to these symptoms for longer than 6 to 12 months, that's, that, that's their indicator?

Yes, because, you know, even with ME/CFS, it's only once you've had the symptoms for at least 6 months that you can be classified. Otherwise, it's more of post-viral syndrome or post-viral condition, because there can be some viruses where it does linger, you know, symptoms do linger for a short period of time. But even in those scenarios, brain retraining can be very powerful because we find the earlier you catch it, the better, you know, because there's less conditioning and it's got, you know, reached less deeply into the brain.

Right, right, right.

Yeah. So that you don't get those feedback loops, like even like more stuck and really solidifying these new neural pathways that support the illness in a sense.

Exactly. Yeah. But then we also find it doesn't matter how long someone's had the condition, we can still get the brain retrained because the brain is your— how can we put it— your cheerleader. It's your servant. It wants you to be happy and healthy. It's just that it needs updating and retraining. So we've had people who've had the condition for 20 to 30 years who've managed to get well. And even age is not a barrier. We've had people in their 80s who've been able to use the brain retraining and get their health back and, you know, live out the rest of their years, you know, with a modicum of normality. So this is something that we believe anybody can do, no matter how old they are or how many years they've had the condition.

Yeah, 100%. I believe that too. Yeah, I've just— it's hard not to believe that when you've witnessed so many profound healing experiences in people. So, and I love that you pointed out age because I know a lot of people that get older, I've I've known people personally that are— it's like they'll be 60 years old and they'll feel like it's too late to start now. And the truth is, it's never too late to start, you know, and it's never too late to heal until we're, you know, until we pass on.

Of course. And that's the birthright of every individual on this planet, is to recognize their illnesses and have access to, you know, resources that can enable them to heal. And when we recognize that, you know, sometimes I get it. We can feel fed up with how our body's feeling and fed up of, I've been to this practitioner, I've taken this medicine, I've spent thousands and thousands on treatment, nothing's helping, and we kind of give up. And the hope I want to give to people is keep going no matter what. Always have that hope and faith that eventually you will heal.

Yeah, that's a good— that actually leads me into my next question because this is a really common question that I know people will be excited to hear your your response. Um, what are your thoughts on why someone might be brain retraining faithfully for an extended period of time, like let's say 3.5, 4+ years, and yet they're still not actually feeling the level of well-being that they were desiring? Um, is there something missing? Is, you know, do they need to pivot in some ways? Do you feel like, um, do you feel like healing is truly possible for everyone, or maybe is that just not their, you know, calling? Uh, what are your thoughts on this?

No treatment works 100% for everybody, and we are constantly researching to understand the people who don't respond to the Gupta Programme, what tend to be the characteristics, or how can we help them further. One thing we will say is that obviously if somebody's been committing for 3 or 4 years, it must be that they had obviously some improvements, otherwise they probably wouldn't commit for 3 to 4 years. But often what really takes them to the next level is is then looking at trauma and looking at trauma healing as a part of physical healing overall. Now, most people can do the Gupta program, which isn't a trauma healing program, although it seems to help people with that, and they don't need to actually go into any formal trauma healing and they can get better. Others, it seems that somehow, for some reason, the past traumas that they've experienced in life have got combined with the condition that there is, you know, there's become a strong link. And therefore, if someone has been retrained for 3 or 4 years, hasn't got the full recovery that they desire, then I would encourage them to kind of go down the route of some deeper trauma healing potentially.

Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. That was my theory as well. Like, I always think if we're doing this and it's not working, then yeah, maybe there's something deeper at the emotional level that needs be addressed. If, if that's, um, if there is somebody who does have physical symptoms or physical illness and also knows that they have a long history of heavy trauma, in your experience, would it be advisable to initially brain retrain and then down the road move into trauma healing, or could the adverse, um, could like the flip of that work as well?

I would say you do the brain retraining first And let me share why. There is a time, or there was a time for every patient probably, where they still had that trauma history but they didn't have the chronic illness, right? The chronic illness often comes later in life. Yeah, so it's perfectly possible to go back to the state of still having the trauma but not having the physical illness. And actually healing from trauma we know takes some energy. For those people who've been through it, they know what it's like, right? And actually, to have physical health back in the body somewhat, even if it's only 70-80%, is beneficial to then being able to look at and reflect on your trauma. You know, you're in a better energized state. But if you're in a very low energy state in the first place physically, and then you're trying to address trauma, that certainly can be challenging. I think. So most of our patients, what we say is start with the program, see how far a recovery that you can get with a program by itself if you have a history of trauma. And then some of our— I mean, all of our coaches are trauma-informed, so they're not necessarily trauma therapists, but they're aware of trauma. And they can either work with one of our coaches or they can work with somebody else who specializes in trauma relief. And that can often take their health to the next level. But it's important that once again, people don't think, I can only get better if I heal my trauma. No, absolutely. Most of our patients, uh, do the trauma work afterwards.

Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And do you have like a personal suggestion as far as if somebody was a very faithful, um, you know, brain retrainer and very committed, you have a, you know, a time frame where you would say, hey, listen, if it's been this many years or this long, this is when I would maybe advise you start looking into the trauma healing.

I would say a year. I think that we say the Gupta program is a minimum 3 to 6 month program and we'd love people to be faithful with it and commit to it. And I'd say after a year, if you're still feeling like you're not getting that recovery that you expected, then it's, you know, worth looking at trauma. And it could be earlier than that if you're fully— you see, this is a very subjective experience because If after 6 months you recognize that you're regularly getting traumatic responses, that it's coming up regularly, then you know, you know that this is something I need to address, right? For other people, it may be something they're not conscious of, and it could be deeply unconscious and not really impacting on them day to day. So it's a very intuitive decision as to when you decide that actually, right, it would be good to look at the trauma as well. That could be even after 6 months.

Hmm.

Okay. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense too.

Thank you.

So I'm going to backtrack just a little. So you— I know that you mentioned your program, your— the Gupta program was the first brain retraining program you first launched in 2007. You revamped it in 2019. And we know at this point now in 2021 that there's actually several different brain retraining programs that have now been created. So, I was wondering, basically, if you could share a little bit about the foundation of your program and what might set yours apart from any other program.

Yes, of course, happy to. So, I think the first thing, you know, about our program is that we really focus on it not being like a boot camp. So, there are other programs out there. Which are very much, this is the technique that you use, you keep doing it again and again and again, and that's pretty much all you need to do. And if you're not getting better, it's because you're not doing it enough. Yeah, it can often trigger, you know, feelings of guilt and shame. It can be something where people push themselves too hard and actually get relapses as a result of that. Ours is a far more compassionate approach, which is that you can't force yourself to get better, you can't force it by just doing one technique, but there's a number and range of different techniques that support healing. So I think that's the first thing is we're not— we don't have that boot camp approach to the main brain retraining. And secondly, we make sure that this is about understanding the deeper reasons for the condition and making sure you stay well. Because many people may be able to retrain their brains, get their health back, but then if they jump back into 100-hour weeks, right, or they start not indulging in self-care or all the other things that they may have been doing before they got unwell, that can just mean that dip comes back. So it's uncovering the deeper reasons as to why we got in in the first place and making sustainable recoveries and those long-term steps to recovery. And also we feel that we give people, you know, a lot of support. So included in when people purchase the program, they actually get 12 weeks of webinars included with it, a very supportive forum, and access to, you know, 30 coaches around the world. And so we give people a lot of resources and to be able to support their journey. And it's a holistic approach, so we not only look at brain retraining, but we look at diet, the anti-inflammatory diets, sleep, getting into nature, pacing, all of these things. And we recognize that people may have a history of trauma, and you know, that, that So supporting that aspect of it is very, very important as well. And finally, I would say that something that sets us apart is that we do offer a 1-year money-back guarantee in our program because we know people have limited funds and limited resources. So we really encourage people to try our program. If it doesn't work, they can return it, no questions asked, and get their money back. And finally, we're the only program, as far as I know, that have got a randomized controlled trial data published on the treatments. So you may know that late last year there was a study published in the Journal of Clinical Medicine, which is a very prestigious journal, which showed that our program was far more effective than a placebo control group. And this was for fibromyalgia, and it showed that there was zero impact in the control group but a 40% reduction in fibro scores within 8 weeks. In the active group. There's a halving of anxiety and depression, a halving of pain, and a 50% increase in functional capacity. And that— so that was just an 8-week intervention, and obviously we'd expect the results to be better for us, a full 6-month program. So that means that, you know, although that was a pilot study, at least there is some scientific validation towards the approach that we take.

That is so awesome. I mean, 40% in 8 weeks is a huge— you know, that's That's huge. And I love this approach. I love that you include the holistic approach because, um, well, that and, well, all of it, but also how you said that you, that the program really helps people to understand the deeper reason and help them to create sustainable recoveries. Because I've definitely been a witness to seeing how people will do, you know, certain programs and they'll retrain and then they think they're better. But yes, like you said, they might go from 0 to 100 or kind of integrate right back into these old patterns that may have, you know, been a part of why they got sick.

Yeah, and it's being aware of the deeper reasons. You know, if we want to, you know, we don't want to go too spiritual, but from a spiritual perspective, we don't blame anyone for getting illnesses. But sometimes some illnesses are a wake-up call for transformation, to look at how we've been living life. Has it been according to our authenticity, to our soul's view on life, or have we been programmed by society to define success in certain ways and therefore pushed ourselves too hard? And it is like a cocoon. So we give the analogy of a caterpillar turning into a butterfly. The caterpillar is how we were with the condition before, you know, so before we got the condition. The condition is like the cocoon. It cocoons us and literally, you know, makes us go inwards so that we can transform into the butterfly. And the butterfly strengthens its wings by struggling out of the cocoon. So our ability to indulge in self-care and be centered and heal ourselves and brain retrain within the cocoon then strengthens our wings so that we can have that ability for the rest of our lives, and so that we are taking care of our mental, physical, emotional health and putting those things first rather than what society or the world or the people around us expect of Right.

Yeah.

And just living that, like you said, living that life that is more authentically aligned to our truth.

Yes.

Yeah, I know that's been my experience in my healing journey for sure. It just, it was a, it was definitely a wake-up call. And I really also appreciate that you do the holistic with recognizing diet, sleep, nature, pacing, because it's great to retrain around food sensitivities and have the ability to eat anything we want. And we still also, for our, for our, you know, so that we can sustain health and well-being, we, we can make good choices in our future to still choose things that do support our optimized functioning.

Yes. Yes. And, you know, these are things which can make all the impact. I mean, I always find it really funny, a story where we had a lady come into our clinic for brain retraining. You know, she had severe anxiety and fatigue and various things. And, you know, we were doing all great things and lots of different tools. Nothing seemed to be working. And then I went into her diet and I said, you know, well, you know, what are you drinking? What are you eating? And she's like, yeah, I mean, you know, I have cups of tea. I mean, you know, that's all I have. And I said, well, how many cups of tea and coffee are you having? She goes, oh, only about 10 to 15 a day.

Oh, jeez.

And I was like, well, you know, this is why it's so important to be holistic because you can't underestimate the impact of just one thing you might be doing in life that could be having all the impact.

Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think, I mean, I'm a huge advocate for the holistic approach in supporting our well-being from a multifaceted level, you know, mind, body, and soul. So. What type of person would be ideal for the Gupta program, or is it truly everybody? You know, they say some people need a more regimented approach depending on personality type or the style of the person. Do you have an idea of who your program might be most ideal for, or is it really truly all types of people?

I think it's all types of people. And, you know, I think that we all have an inner child, right? We all need a compassionate approach. Yeah, I think we're all very similar as human beings. We all want to be loved, right? We all want to have that self-love. And so I don't believe that any of us truly want a regimented approach. I think it can be counter-indicative of compassion. For ourselves. And I think it's really— the bigger factor is, are people ready to commit to taking responsibility for the healing journey? Because we've been taught in Western culture certainly to pop a pill and then we'll get better. So everyone's waiting for the research to happen, some miracle drug to come along, and then we'll all be healed. Yeah, but in these conditions, I don't believe it works like that. I don't believe that will ever happen. And so it is— the main thing is, is somebody prepared to say, um, actually there is something I'm going to have to do, there is some commitment I'm going to have to make to retrain my brain. It will take some time each day, but I'm committed to doing that for the sake of my health. So I think that's really the type of person that, uh, you know, is ready to, to come forward on this.

Yes, absolutely. And what is your I guess, what is your suggestion or opinion in regards to how much time somebody does need to commit to experience true results?

We say a minimum in one sitting of maybe 20 to 30 minutes a day, yeah, and then we have short exercises throughout the day. So that would be the minimum commitment. And obviously, the more time you put into the program, the more you're retraining your brain. So by definition, you're gonna have better results the more commitment that you put into it. But we recognize that people have busy lives and families and work, so it can fit around a normal life. Yeah, as long as you put those things into place in your life. You know, we all take a shower in the morning and brush our teeth, right? Because we know that that's something that's good for us. So the same way, when we put things in place during the day that are good for our physical and emotional health, then it can become part of a normal routine of life.

Right, yeah.

And you're not saying if they don't commit to every single thing every day that they won't heal, you're just saying it might take a little longer.

Yes, and you know, it's, um, it's not X plus Y equals Z. So some people will just do 2 of the tools and they'll heal and they'll get better, which is why we give people a menu of different tools that you use in different scenarios and situations. Other people, they really find they have to do, you know, a lot of the tools and techniques together to see those results eventually occur over time. So it's something which is, you know, is variable, but it's something— it's more the commitment to retrain overall and then you'll intuitively do the things that you know are going to help you. But, um, and so what tends to happen, the biggest challenge we have, is people throw themselves into brain retraining, they get 80, 90% better, uh, or even 100% better, and then they become complacent. Um, they go— as they gradually get back into normal life, they push themselves too hard again, and then they get a dip, and they think, oh, what do we do now? I thought it had worked. But all it is is that their brain's got hyperactive again restimulated defensive responses and they just need that further retraining again.

Okay. I love that. And so if that does happen for somebody, do you suggest they go back to the beginning of the program? Because I know this is another thing, you know, just having so many connections where I've heard the fear kick in of, oh my gosh, I ruined it, or I just made myself terrible all over, you know, all those versus like, well, you, you had like a little a little setback, but you're not where you were 2 years ago when you first started this. So do they just kind of pick up the tools that they've learned along the way and just reintegrate them?

Yes. You throw yourself back into the program and continue with it as if it's the first day you were doing it. You see, when we get a dip, people think, oh, everything's lost. All that great stuff I learnt is gone. But it's not. It's just that the brain's got overexcited or overstimulated, it doesn't mean you've lost all the brain retraining that you did before. Yeah, it's a bit like, let's say you're learning a musical instrument and you're learning a particular song, and you've learned that song in your head. Yeah, you've nearly rewired your brain to be able to play that song on the piano. Now let's say you do a particular piano recital in front of an audience and you play that particular song and you make a number of mistakes, right, because you're nervous, right? Now you don't then think, oh, I've completely forgotten the song, I don't know how to play it, it's all gone wrong, I'm starting from scratch. No, the programming in your brain of how to play that song is still there. It's just that in that moment, um, in front of all those people, your brain got overactive and overexcited and couldn't remember how to do it correctly. But all of that knowledge is still there in the brain. So we just go back to the, the retraining and the practices, and people can get back to normal. So that's the most important thing, is a dip does not mean you've, you've lost the knowledge or start from scratch. It's just going back into that faith and commitment again.

This is the most wonderful explanation I've ever heard of this, literally. And it feels so, um, it's just, there's this very easeful feeling about that mindset, about having that mindset when that happens, you know, rather than getting caught up in the worry, the fear, and all that other stuff.

Exactly. Wow. It's actually— it's funny enough, I just made that analogy up on the spot, and I really like it as well. So I'm going to start using with our clients.

Yes, it's a wonderful analogy. I love it. So thank you. Um, so do you have, in all the years experience you've been doing this, over 20 years now, and do you have, uh, just like some type of just radical transformation or healing that you've witnessed along the way that you would like to share?

Uh, yes, we're very lucky to, to get these wonderful emails that come in every day into the clinic of healing journeys that people have been on. And certainly with long-haul COVID, um, you know, people have been able to— some people within, within days and weeks, they've been able to get back to 80-90%, and then continuing for a few months, getting up to 100%. That's been really nice to see because a lot those patients are being ignored by the mainstream medical profession, or there's not enough resources to support them. And so for them to have this option to be able to heal is fantastic. At the same time, you know, we'll be honest, there'll be some people where it's been a year of brain retraining, and it's beautiful to see that even after a year they're committed and they are showing then another step change in their health after a year. Because they committed and kept going. And this tells us that brain training is an art, not a science. We don't know how quickly the brain will get retrained. We don't know how long the detoxification processes need to kick in to support that. The healing of the physical body from these types of conditions is very much a black box. And so whether you get better in a week or you get better in 6 months or a year, however long it takes, keep going. That's the number one thing. Keep going until you make that recovery, because it is that idea of that persistence and faith and keeping going. Your body will eventually get the message. Your brain will eventually retrain.

Yeah, I mean, and I mean, just with everything that your program includes and what the tools that people are using in this experience, in my opinion, I think it far supersedes the healing of the physical conditions. I mean, we're— these tools are like, you know, we talked about, Audrey, they're helping us to align to our authentic self, to really live a life that aligns to our soul's purpose, and to feel more whole, to feel more love, more compassion for ourselves that we can then project out into the world and other people. And, and so, yeah, as you keep doing this and keep using these tools, the benefits far supersede just the physical.

Yes, it is a whole program of of discovery. So yes, we have our core program, which is the first 10 sessions, video sessions, which is all about retraining the brain from this condition. And then the final 5 sessions are a more profound journey, a deeper journey into understanding more about ourselves as individuals, our authentic, our authentic selves, and, and how to live a life moving forward that keeps us healthy and also is authentic.

I love it. Yeah, I know for me in my Brain Retraining experience, very early on, the momentum and the drive that kept me going was— it wasn't— I wasn't even fixated on the physical symptoms. It was— I was so in belief that if I would keep focusing on aligning to my truth and discovering my soul's purpose and upgrading my mindset, I had no doubt in my mind that the physical symptoms would have to fall to the wayside. It just— it intuitively, that's just what felt very right for me.

Yes. And, you know, I think we really have to get people— as we see this in patient groups all the time— we have to get people out of this dichotomy of physical and psychological. Yeah. And it's an artificial Cartesian separation that modern medicine has created, which, you know, it sounds like a harsh word, it is a lie. It's just, it's just not true. Uh, you know, these structures like the amygdala and the insula, they process emotional threats and immunological threats, biological threats, chemical threats. These structures don't make a differentiation between them. And every physical illness has an emotional component, every emotional illness has a physical component. We know, for instance, that people who suffer from severe anxiety are 3, 4 times more likely to develop a chronic condition, right? You can see the links there. And another great example of this is, you know, we are big supporters of mindfulness and meditation, which is a supporting tool within our brain retraining program. And a Harvard study, 2015, one of the largest studies ever conducted, found that people who learned to meditate had a 42% drop in their usage of medical facilities. Right? Imagine that, 42% drop. If some drug company came up with a a pill that would almost halve the usage of medical facilities, it would be hailed as the miracle drug of the 21st century. I mean, you wouldn't even imagine it. And yet we have something available for— to us for free with little side effects, um, which is available to all of us. It just requires that time commitment, and it can actually heal the physical body or prevent it from getting ill. We have that evidence base now, um, and, um So that's really the mindset that we need to shift is let's get out of this physical versus psychological. And unfortunately, you know, a lot of support groups think that our program or Brain Retraining is somehow psychological. It's not psychological. It is actually a new branch of medicine that can only be called neuroplasticity approaches or neuroplasticity techniques. And it is different to psychological approaches. And that's really the message that we're trying to get through again and again and again. This is not in your minds, but it is in the unconscious brain that is beyond your conscious awareness. Therefore, these illnesses are not your fault. They're not psychological. But we found some novel ways of training the brain on the periphery of consciousness to be able to switch off these unconscious responses.

Right? Yeah.

So good. You have— speaking of meditation, a really awesome app. Called The Meaning of Life Experiment, and it's free, and people can download it and follow along every day, and it's for a month, and it actually includes daily meditations with a different focus each day, choosing between 10 and 20 minutes, plus an accompanying video that you provide. It's— so far I've been doing it, and the videos are— have all been topics that you've been sharing on.

And I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your hope and intention behind this Yes, this app is a result of my own journey over the last 20 years. It was all a download of my brain, as it were, into the app. And it's a not-for-profit app to really take people on a journey of happiness, meaning, and purpose. So within the app, as you say, there's a daily— it's 30 minutes for 30 days, but you don't have to do it just in 30 days. You might do it over 60 days or whatever. And every day you get a meditation and a video. And it teaches you a regular practice of meditation, but then goes deeper into understanding the, the science of happiness, uh, the science of self-awareness, why mindfulness works, um, how you can go deeper into your life purpose, you know, what is the gift that you're here to give on this planet. And so it's a complete holistic approach to your personal development And yeah, we really hope people get an opportunity to try that. Now, of course, if somebody has a chronic condition and a chronic illness, we probably recommend doing the Gupta program rather than the Meaning of Life Experiment. Yeah.

Or maybe they could incorporate that down the road in their recovery.

Yes.

Yeah. Well, I love it. So I thank you for creating something so beautiful. From the first day I explored it, I want to share it with everyone. So I'll make sure that I have a link in the show notes for that app for sure. And also, of course, the program, right? Because most, most of the people who probably find this podcast are at the beginning or somewhere in the middle of their journeys of recovery and healing and, you know, trying to figure out what's the right solution for them. Ashok, overall, what is your mission statement?

I think our mission here is to uplift people who are going through chronic illness and to enable them to lead healthier and happier lives. You know, that's why we're here, to give people the access to this knowledge which is their birthright, that health and wellness is their birthright.. And that's our hope.

I love it.

They are our birthright.

Health and wellness is our birthright. And in the show notes, I'll put links to the Gupta Program website. And then, like I said, also the app. But is there anywhere else that people can follow along with you?

Yes, they can like our Facebook pages, Meaning of Life Experiment and Gupta Program. So those are two Facebook pages they can also like. And our Instagram, which is Ashok Gupta TV. You can follow us on Instagram as well. But the main thing I would encourage people to do is, as you say, go to the website and you can sign up for a free 28-day trial of the Gupta Program. So you can watch lots of videos, there's even a meditation there, so you get a flavor and a sample of it with things that can, you know, really help you even from day one before you even commit to any kind of payment.

That's really awesome. That's very generous. 28-day trial. I'll make sure that I include that information as well. Do you have any final message that you would want to share with the world and anyone listening? Yes.

Once again, I think we mentioned it earlier. No matter the struggles you've been through with your condition, no matter the feeling of a loss of hope or cynicism, coming in. Whatever you've experienced, whatever you've been through, I want you to know that my experience has been people do eventually heal, whatever path they go along. Healing is possible. And, you know, keep up that hope and faith that you will get there. So keep going.

I wanted to thank you once again for being here, for sharing your wisdom, for creating an absolutely beautiful program and contributing to just the growth of our collective and helping support healing, because we know that when one person heals themselves, that they're actually making a contribution to the entire planet. And so, yeah, thank you for doing what you do and for honoring your word that you made to yourself, that if you healed, you would be committed to helping others heal. So that's a really beautiful gift that you're sharing with the world. And thank you for being here.

Yes. No, thank you for inviting me on this podcast. It's been wonderful. Thank you so much.

That's a wrap, my friends.

Thanks again for being here. Don't forget to check out the show notes and the links available for this program, as well as the wonderful app that Ashok created as a gift for all of us. Until next time, walk backwards and make this week great.