Episode 106 – Interview with Mr Retirement Asif Rahman
12 Mar 2019 · 73 min
Gian Galea talks with M Asif Rahman about his path in WordPress, living overseas, and startup investing. They discuss where WordPress is headed and the challenges of building in that ecosystem.
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Welcome everybody to Mastermind FM. This is Gian Galea and with me today I have Asif Rahman, all the way from Bangladesh. We're just going to get into his journey in WordPress and the post WordPress phase of his life and what he's currently up to at the moment. So welcome to the show Asif.
Thank you John. It's actually my absolute pleasure and that's actually my first time I'm like doing a podcast so I'm a little bit nervous but I'm not nervous in conversation. And I know John for quite some years already we had like few very good conversations before.
That's right.
And looking forward to have a lot of like interesting discussion in terms of like what I have done, what we are all thinking and going on.
That's right. Also I must mention right away that you have a very good YouTube channel going on with interviews. I guess some of them are not in English, but I've also heard some of them which are in English and were very interesting. So anyone who wants to check those out apart from this podcast, they can obviously check that out after they finish this episode.
Yeah, it's actually like I like talking to people. I'm very much involved in startup community for almost like 10 years. Especially like when I talk to entrepreneur they could be like someone I knew before or they could be someone that I'm just meeting today. It is very good conversation. So I came up with an idea of a show. It's called Adda with Asif. So Adda is a Bangla word that means like, like gossip or like informal conversations.
Right.
In some ways it's actually almost like a podcast, but we do it in a video. I did like four episodes already. The first three was in my language in Bangla, the last one was in English. I'm looking forward to have more English episode in coming days.
And where's the setting where you record them? Because it seems like quite a fancy setup as well in terms of studio or wherever you're recording.
Yeah, yeah. Like video is kind of a little bit difficult than like just only audio. So in video you need setup, you need good light, you need like good crew. So what I'm doing, like I am using a startup in Bangladesh. Their name is like Movians. So they are like a small startup but they do video a more cheaper way. So I'm partnering with them. So they do all the setups, the editing and everything. That's why like it could look a little bit like professional, not fully because I want to keep it as simple as possible. So not much like post editing.
Well, good job so far.
Thank you.
All right, so before we get ahead of ourselves, I'm going to challenge you. Could you give us a summary of your journey so far in less than two minutes? You think you can do that?
Yep, I could surely do that.
Go ahead.
I am involved in computer and those things very early, since my grade 8. I actually started my company back in 2004 before I start my university. In that time I got introduced to WordPress. I found it very easy to actually make website with WordPress. My experience before was only little bit of like HTML, not much even PHP. But making website in WordPress was easier. I started making a lot of different kind of website and I have a like passion for content as well. So I made a lot of website with different kind of content. I did not actually got much success in first few years, but then I have like some very good success. I was able to sell some of those business as business. Then I got my first big break with the tech journal and it became like very popular. Within first six months we had like Alexa rank below 4000. Later on I was also like vocal about like what I'm learning in WordPress, what's going on in WordPress security and optimization. So by the time I finished my university, I was actually already Was able to attend a lot of like, what camps and I was also attending a lot of like different tech conferences in US or all over the world because of the tech journal. So in that time I also found that I have a passion for actually helping the young entrepreneurs and talking about startup. I started to invest and I had like good friend circle that actually helped me to get introduced to more people. So I end up like building a lot of like different kind of product around WordPress and invested in interesting startups, like even also in Facebook earlier than their ipo. Interesting. And I retired last year in first September of 2018. That's it. End of my life. Two years done.
Awesome. So let's overlay a few things on that. I believe we're actually the same age, give or take one or two years. I'm 35 at the moment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And interestingly, you know, not only you and me, a lot of people in our WordPress ecosystem are in same age like me and Matt is same age.
That's true. So Facebook founder and many others within the space of two, three years. That's right.
Yeah, very true.
So like, you, you like traveling and you've lived abroad in several countries. So if we had to overlay these experiences of living abroad over what you just described, this journey, could you like give us some more context into how living abroad came to be and how it helped you in business and in life?
Possibly, yeah. Like let me answer in like two ways. In terms of the family, if you ask me, like in family wise, that's very different when you are travel with a family. So me and my wife, we are blessed to be able to live in at least like six to seven cities where we stayed more than like three months. So if you ask any of us about like what is the best city to live in, the answer we give, we really have experience. We are speaking from experience, not is actually somebody told us that like Melbourne is a good city to live so you get to explore more. You have like real experience, like where is actually better to leave or where's the like specialty of some place in terms of business? I did a lot of travel without my wife as well when I was actually like living in Orlando, but I was traveling also in a lot of different place and probably, you know, like I have attended like over 100 wordcamps and when you think like when I mean in Bangladesh and still like I'm traveling that much, sometimes it could feel confusing like how I was able to attend like so many what camps? Well, Like a lot of what camp doesn't happen in here. Like we never even had a single word. Camps in Bangladesh or Dhaka we are going to have this year hopefully, but we never had before, right? So if you talk about like travel and work camps, I find out like if I do not actually travel, if I do not get to introduce to new people, probably it's actually hard to go beyond what you are doing right now. So for me all the career growth or like different business aspect or different things happen for my life. It has a lot of like good relations with the travel I had like, like if you go to just one or two event in a year and meet just a few people, if you do that for one or two year may you will have like good hallway conversations. But to have a deeper relationship you need to actually meet them like few times, right? So when you are actually doing a business for that long, you need to have like some kind of advantage or like good communications with the people you are working. So I had those advantages and actually that also let me excel in my business as well.
It's interesting I'm asking these questions because although we grew up in totally different parts of the world, maybe a similarity is that in our respective countries it wasn't so easy to be successful without looking outward. You know, I grew up in a small island in the middle of the Mediterranean where opportunities were limited and to grow I had to always attend. Same thing in mind that there's never been any word camp there and no plans for it yet. So I had to always go abroad, go to conferences, network with people. And that's definitely been one of the most important aspects if I had to look at my success, you know, meeting people and really getting interested in people and what they're doing abroad, always.
Yeah, very true for me as well. And you see like sometime when you live in a like country like Bangladesh or anywhere, sometimes you actually think in your own space. So like for Bangladesh, life is cheaper. Most of the people the way they think. And you could also find like cheap labor in here. Everybody knows that, right? But if you are making for say maybe like $5,000 or $10,000 in here, you will probably feel like you have a lot of money and you could do a lot of different things. And sometime in terms of business, when it grows, people feel like they are complete already. They don't need to actually compete anymore because they are already earning enough. So when you like explore, when you talk to more people, find out like how much they are making or what they are actually Doing how they are actually doing a lot of different things that actually help his business grow, then you could probably have more challenges in your mind.
Agreed. So you mentioned Melbourne as the favorite city, right?
Okay, so you got that one. Yes. I was about to actually live in Melbourne for a while. Melbourne is a fantastic city. It's very good to live. Their weather is very weird but like I don't mind because like everywhere in the world when it's actually having summer in Melbourne is absolutely like winter is very different. But our main reason to prefer Melbourne is we found like the weather and the atmosphere and the people, everything is very vibrant. Only the shortcoming is Melbourne is costly. So if you're making plans to raise a family or something, probably San Francisco will not be your choice. San Francisco is very costly in any aspect. So Melbourne is very costly. That's the like only trouble. Otherwise like we found like life in Melbourne is very vibrant.
Interesting. I haven't been personally but I've had friends who went there and I saw the photos and everything and it seems like a very like well organized, clean, all the best facilities. So it seems amazing.
Yep, very true.
So I actually went on the same more or less journey of traveling a lot in order to find this perfect place and that's why I'm in Barcelona now. So I wonder if you've been actually to Barcelona.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Barcelona is a fantastic city. The weather is fantastic, the people is fantastic. They have like really good culture. I remember like when I was in Barcelona the first time we went to like a film festival kind of things. There was a lot of artists so I know like the whole country and culture is like very interesting.
Yeah. We just had the mobile World Congress here this week.
So yeah, Barcelona. Yeah, I attended many years. I attended like three years consecutively probably.
Nice. Yeah. I found Barcelona to be a balance of everything I kind of wanted. It's not as clean or well run as Melbourne or other cities but it's much cheaper for sure.
Good food, good weather and in some time they became their own country as well. So it's very funny they declared their own independency for a while. Right?
Yeah, that's actually one of the main problems of living here. But the politics. Yeah, but anyway you could say that for everywhere. So it's true what I do is just ignore everything and that's it, you know?
Yeah, yeah. When you are in Barcelona like do you get involved in their startup ecosystem or those kind of ecosystem as well?
Well depends in terms of investment. Yes. But I never liked the Startup ecosystem that much as in, I'm more like the bootstrapped kind of person. Build small things.
Okay.
More lifestyle, you know, lifestyle businesses than startups. But I have invested in like the property crowdfunding. Most of them are startups.
Okay.
So I've not invested in them directly, but I've been there from the very first days of their inception investing into their products, like the real estate in this case.
Okay, that's a little bit like interesting for me. Like I was always into like take startup investment kind of things because I always feel like I understand this ecosystem. I understand like what people are really building and how to add value.
So let me ask you though, when you talk about investing in startups, is this in Bangladesh or worldwide?
I actually started investing internationally, so my first investment was actually in New York.
Right.
But later on I invested most of my companies, I invested they are actually from like Bay Area in San Francisco. So I came back in Bangladesh and I started investing in Bangladesh since 2012. So before that all my investment is in US so I started investing in Bangladesh since 2012. But in last two, three years when I'm staying in Bangladesh like full time, I'm investing like in more in here. So we have like good startup ecosystem in here. Like it started also with my hand in 2012, so I'm like more involved in here. I also help to build up the ecosystem with the government, with a lot of like private entities as well. Right.
So obviously the fact that you are living in say San Francisco, you are networking, being aware of all these startups and getting involved, I guess that's how it worked. Right. Okay. So if you had been living in Bangladesh, you wouldn't probably have been able to do those investments. I guess.
Yeah, it could be true.
Talk us through like a typical investment. Let's say I want to invest in a startup in the us what should I do from here? Because I actually honestly don't know where I would even start from.
There are like few stages of investment. Like I'm like a small scale investor, so my investment scale will be like much smaller. It will be always like below $100,000 or even less. Like it could be even just 5 or $10,000 as well. So this investment, it means like I'm investing in seed level or like even pre seed level. So in pre seed level it will always come up with more risk because they're full possibility that they will not actually reach to series A. So if they do not reach to series A and if you invested in a convertible debt, that Means your money will not even convert it as share. But sometime you have the opportunity. If you don't know people whom you should invest to. You could also invest as a group as well right now like Angel List or Micro Venture, those kind of website. You can they have like two kind of opportunity. Like Angel List. They could have something they call like a syndicate. So I could actually have an open syndicate where I choose to invest in a startup and I could actually invite my friend that like this startup raising like 500,000 and I will invest 50,000 and I could allow like more people and they will have the all the documents and the vetting process and everything. So you could get more chance. So you do not have to discover the startup, they will discover it for you. But you will have to rely on somebody and sometimes they will charge some. So you will have to pay them like 10 or 20% or something like that. But when I invested in Facebook, I did not invest in Facebook in very early stage. It was just like two or three years before their ipo. So there are like a few ways of doing that. One could be like secondhand share. So somebody else own the share and they wants to actually offload some of the shares. So then they could actually bring in a broker and they could actually sell those share in like in a bidding process or something. Something or sometime like when they are raising like series B or series C or series D. In those like a higher round they have a like smaller check size. Maybe smaller check size is like 20 million or 50 million. So in that time like small scale investor doesn't get chance. So what they do sometimes they form a like mutual fund kind of thing. So it will be a mutual fund and you all put money in there. Then that mutual fund will invest the whole money in a bigger startup, right? So right now like it's very easy to invest. Like you could try out with like maybe just $5,000 or $10,000 in micro venture and you could see like a startup like Docker or like like a lot of like shiny startup is actually available in there. Probably you will pay a little bit higher price because that's actually probably secondhand share in like second market. So if you want to invest in a very early stage then probably angel list. Look at angel list like what people are doing. Sometime you could get opportunity from like Y combinator in the new round. But the problem is like if you invest very soon when the company formed, you will get like more return if it becomes successful with more risk. But if you invest in a Like higher round you will get like less return but you will have like more security.
Right, but in the case of Facebook for example, I guess you met somebody in the U.S. no. In order to get into this whole thing?
No, like it was in, back in 2009. In that time Facebook was all Facebook already raised, probably series D or something. So in that time they are raising around and one particular group was actually forming a syndicate. So I invested with the syndicate. It was not an individual investment. So price of per share was already fixed. They are actually raising money so they could form and like reach to maybe 30 million altogether.
But how do you find the firm in this case? How did, how did you find?
I had good friends already. Like before angellist. If you want to find more investor, more startups, you will always have to have connection so somebody has to refer you. So I was already investing in Bay Area and I had few friends already. One particular, my friend, he knows like I was interested in Facebook so he forwarded me the deal and I choose to invest.
Right, okay. That's why I'm asking because I know that back then there wasn't any angel list. So I liked Facebook back then but I didn't know anything about investment first of all, nor did I ever come across any advertisement or anything to invest in Facebook before the IPO. So right now in Spain there's something similar to AngelList I guess.
Okay. Something local.
So yeah, this was like I was at a WordPress conference and I met a guy who invests in startups and he's like, yeah, we have this group and we get to invest in startups more or less every month. So you can join. It's like an email list and whenever there's a new startup early stage, they send us this email with the proposal and then they're like raising 100k or 200, whatever. And it's an allotment that must be shared between all the members on this list. So it's similar to what you are describing. I guess so if I had to invest in the US it would be through AngelList at the moment the best way to get started.
Yeah, but the trouble is like when you find something in Angellist, probably they already raised some fund already. I would say like it will not be very good opportunity probably like it could not be the best opportunity because they are probably already looked in their like general circle and they are not able to or they probably raised some fund there already and they're coming to Angelique. So generally you should start with somebody else recommendation. So you could ask few friends who invest and they could actually always actually forward you some deal. You look through the papers, you look through the founders mainly like if you ask me like what I look for in a startup when I invest, I only look at the people, look at the team. It's not about idea. Idea could always be worked, but it's always about the team. You could do the same. You could actually see like what you want to bet ultimately some kind of bait for sure.
Yeah. Tell us about the WordPress industry. Because that's our main shared interest, at least for the past 10, 15 years has been WordPress. So what do you think about WordPress going forward and the current state of WordPress? I know you've got opinions about that.
I have like pretty different opinion about like what's going on and what's happening. So for my life like what I have done, yes, I have did investment. My company has made like a lot of different kind of publications and media startup as well. But my main passion and everything I work for is actually everything in WordPress. So I was not building product from the beginning, but I was a CEO of one of the largest WordPress product company we did. So I ran that company for one and a half year. Right now we have like few other companies that is also doing business in WordPress. I personally feel a lot of things are changing pretty fast in WordPress and it will actually keep changing. Like when we actually had our first Rest API and when Rest API actually move into like admin and other sections in WordPress that actually we invited a lot of different change to happen. And with Gutenberg a lot of different changes will happen. Everybody knows that. But the way I see that we will actually perceive change is actually when Gutenberg take over in terms of making website. Right now Gutenberg is just a Post editor. In 2019, end of 2019 and 20 it will be a website builder. Pretty soon we will not need any themes like the way WordPress will move the menu and wizard to Gutenberg. A lot of things will actually start changing. I personally feel the themes the way we have seen it will not work. Not only because of Gutenberg. If you've seen like development of Elementor that actually excelled a lot in past year, so it could even keep growing. So those will change. Theme probably will not be in this place for a long time. And in terms of plugins I do feel like people will start building a lot of cool things with Rest API and in a different way. A lot of business that are very closely coupled with WordPress including jetpack, what's automatic is doing what a lot of like other big guys are doing. Soon they will realize like it's the right time to move a lot of different things in WordPress to SaaS. And they already started doing that. When the SaaS will rise more we will see a lot of like different changes. Like I should not make this kind of prediction but like just between us because we are talking. So my prediction is like WooCommerce will actually move more into a jetpack and it will be like more like a SaaS kind of things. Maybe we could have choice but like it will move more into SaaS for a lot of like different reason. And we will see like those trend is being used by a lot of other different ecosystem inside WordPress as well. You see like enterprise people are like taking like good attention in WordPress as well. Like BigCommerce is in WordPress they have a plugin and a lot of like other people who are in absolute enterprise solution, they are also coming in WordPress. So that will also bring in a lot of like different chains and like also it will have some shift in power chains as well.
Right. So from what I gather you see different but positive future for WordPress.
Yeah, obviously.
Okay, not everyone thinks in a positive way.
There will be up and down obviously with good and like I think like Gutenberg is our future and Gutenberg is like the right move but the way it's being executed, I'm like extremely against it. Like it could have been done far, far better way. And right now we could all see like what's happening though.
Why do you think it's the best way forward though?
Let's talk about people who writes. Right. So WordPress is a platform for writers, bloggers and a lot of different people. So if I have to think about for one of my publications, the Dhaka Times is actually Bangladeshi lifestyle magazine. So all the writers we have trained almost like seven years ago, the way they used to write, they will have a title, they will have a paragraph, they will have an image, then they will have rest of the article. So you see this very single structures kind of things like one dimensional right now the wave has more potential to go to multi dimensional. It's not just like putting a like one or two images or have a like slideshow or like something like that inside a post. You could do a lot of different things in an article. So I feel like WordPress was not able to keep up in the way we write a post. So the editor was actually already backdated but the problem we have made, we did not actually improved it little by little. We did not actually improve that at all. So all the writers in my team, they're still writing the same way. They're writing like seven years ago. So. So we have not actually moved much. Then come Gutenberg. It seems like it has much more potential. You are able to do a lot of like different things inside it. It could be multi dimensional because you could have access to like its API, so you could manipulate with the content in a different way. But the problem is our writers, the people who use WordPress, they are not actually ready for it. They're still writing in the same way. And for them like if I just give them like Gutenberg interface, they will not even know like where to write the title. That's not even intuitive enough. So there are a lot of like issues that came up with Gutenberg, which is actually having like more negative response. But if you think about the like development of this thing, like if it was instead of being done in one year, if we are actually doing it for last 10 years or seven years, people would have copped up with the changes already and it would have like much well welcoming feedback.
Yeah, I think there's definitely because of the fact that it hasn't been improved gradually, there's a lot of fear about switching as well. So it's natural for people to fear something that is so different than what they're used to.
That is true.
So there's a psychological factor there that's playing an important factor here in Gutenberg adoption, I think. But yeah, I definitely agree that something is needed because I run blogs myself and it's true, we've been doing the same thing forever.
Yeah, it's time to move on. And like you see like the people who initially actually adopted WordPress, there was like two kind of people. One is like actually who started their writing experience first in WordPress, the bloggers and also the publication who used to publish in a, in printed publication or they're publishing in like different platform, their own platform or something. They are also coming in WordPress. So they all do things in a very like, I would say like one dimensional way. Their content is not multi dimensional. But right now I feel like there are like more ways to add more dimensions to content, so.
Agreed. So I don't know if you're. Do you. Let's say this is something maybe I feel, I don't know if you've shared the same feeling, but a couple, maybe five years ago, going to a WordCamp conference seemed like we're building something revolutionary, you know, like similar maybe to the crypto space last year or something like that, you know. And right now I don't get that same excitement when I go to world camps. It seems kind of more institutionalized, big players in the market.
When did you started to feel that? When did that feeling first came?
I think two or three years ago I would say.
Is this because of any like big what cams, like what cam Europe or us kind of things or like like in general?
No, actually I like the fact that it's big. You know, it's not about being big, it's just. I don't know, I got, I don't get the same vibe. It's maybe because we've gotten older and there's lots of new guys.
I do feel like one change I kind of like it actually bothers me a lot is actually the way WordPress and its related ecosystem moved with time. Like few things really got like more institutionalized. That is very true. And you see like the hosting companies, we had hosting companies sponsoring WhatCam from the beginning. That is very true. But the way it actually increased and the amount of money they invested in WordPress including the managed host or every other host that also actually cause a lot of different other aspect in WordPress as well. Like I'm not saying like they are doing anything bad. They're making it accessible for a lot of people and if they have like a lot of good standard that also improves people security and other things. That is very true. But some of those hosting company are backed by public company and that public company they are being run by different breed of people who are like far different than how we are doing. And you see like those corporate did not actually just stop at investing in one or two companies. They also influence a lot of other part of WordPress as well. Like right now if a blogger has like good traffic in WordPress related keyword he will be obviously will be reached out by few of those host about doing a like like review or like organizing different things. So that also changed a lot of aspect in those things. And that is true. Somehow a lot of people feel like a little bit disconnected about like what's going on and how much control we have because we have seen like few cycle like how we have been promised something that is actually a community driven approach in something and later on we seen like in first hand that all of our opinion being ignored completely and is being done by few people. So that actually happened like several times and after like seeing Few times. A lot of people doesn't actually talk much that they used to have like an opinion before. So I, I do feel like that could be an also reason. Like a lot of people who are involved for a long time, they feel like they are a bit like disconnected from what's going on and they really have like, like very little things to do about like the fate of WordPress.
Yeah, that's for sure. Because I don't know, back five, ten years ago it was, you know, there's automatic handling the core and then like the rest is all up for grabs. You know, we were building plugins, themes, everybody was successful with their own stuff and really nobody bothering anyone else, you know. And now it seems like there are much bigger forces controlling things. So like if I had to make a plugin right now, I would probably not be so inclined to build a plugin because I have this feeling like how can I compete with these big guys.
I personally don't feel in that way though. Like this new business of mine, WP developer is like platform. It's almost like a marketplace but we do it in a like you could say it's like WordPress incubator. So we have our own product release in this thing and we also support like small indie or like small teams. They could actually work with us, they could develop with us together and we will actually help them release. So they will probably will handle only the development part and we will handle their marketing and other parts. We also call it like incubator for WordPress as well. So I feel like there are scope, there are a lot of problems to be solved and I know like a lot of games are not clear.
Sorry, isn't that kind of my point? You know like you need assistance from someone bigger than you to launch a product nowadays.
But you could see it in a two way. So the ecosystem has grown so you need like more, more like support and like more organized things to do better in here at the same time time probably I'm just trying to actually hand hold the small developer. So in history of like building good things and not being able to like market it properly, I could use like my experience in marketing product and like help them so they could grow faster. Yeah, if we have time like I would like to ask one different aspects of WordPress related to EDD and like different things.
So sure.
I do feel like we did not we as I'm talking about like developers or the people who supported WordPress for more than a decade. I feel like we have not been able to mature enough with time with WordPress. So when WordPress was actually maturing for enterprise, we developers, we, the people who built for WordPress build with WordPress was not able to actually move forward. The ou is supposed to be and especially one of the good example is actually edd. Why I'm actually bringing this comparison is because like EDD and WooCommerce, they both came in to be almost in the same time. I remember that was probably August 2012 in a WhatCam San Francisco. We had like all of them like Audi and Pippin and everyone in WhatCam San Francisco. And in that time there are like two other e commerce platform in WordPress WP, eCommerce and eShop. And then both of them are actually working the U themes guy. And also Pippin, they actually started to work on the new breed of E commerce. And you see like what happened like Pippin is one of the most respected developer in WordPress and we all actually love him, we all follow him, what he has done, he's very vocal about what he does. But edd, the way it's supposed to improve, the way supposed to actually excel, it did not. And a lot of like bad things happened with EDD in 2018 and I use EDD every day and we are all suffering a lot of different way. And the main reason I feel like is because we are not able to choose our course of action wisely. And you have EDD booking, I would like to ask you like how things are going on with you for past three years.
Well, it's been tough because of the fact that we thought EDD would be maturing differently, it would be a much bigger market, but it hasn't developed that way and hence our product got squeezed out. Kind of like there's not enough people using the product to justify having the product in the first place. So eventually we're going to most probably get forced to shift to another platform like WooCommerce in order to make it work. Then again, WooCommerce already has good booking plugins, so then we'd face much harder competition. So that's what I was saying, like it's not that easy anymore to just build up plugins and grow it organically like I did with Aggregator. And bear in mind that I did.
That, that was too early, but I'm.
Not a hardcore developer at all. I just coded for fun. And I was building this in Thailand, you know, not spending that much time, you know, having fun in Thailand and building a product. And it was very successful in the end. But nowadays I Don't think you can replicate that. That again, you need much more structure, as you are saying. And perhaps that's the failure with EDD bookings that we had. You know, we kind of went in without much structure and much vision for the future. One of the problems is actually that you're building on top of EDD bookings, which is built on top of WordPress. So you're introducing more and more layers. So once something changes in the layer above, you're at their mercy. Keep in mind that EDD bookings, EDD itself changed its model last year or the year before when they stopped Third Party Marketplace as well. That was an important part for us because having EDD bookings on the EDD website was crucial for us. And now we're forced to market it ourselves on our own, which is next to impossible, basically.
And probably you feel like a lot of things that happened to you was not fair because you did not have like much to say or what's going to happen and how that could happen. That is very true.
You know, I understand what Pippin did, you know, and there was no bad feelings or anything. It's just a feeling of being powerless, you know, in these situations.
That is true. So maybe in future, like when you make a business plan, you will try to actually plan in a way that you do not have to actually depend much on people. Like right now, if I have to make like a good plan for WordPress or make a plan that I want to develop in future, I will try to probably go into SaaS or like maybe build a layer that could work with WordPress. But ultimately the solution probably would have been SaaS.
I would disagree with that. It's just. And I guess that's why maybe I lost a bit of my interest in WordPress because I kind of felt that it's no longer my place, that these are new times for new people and I found my passion and other things, you know. And that's kind of why I slowly drifted away from WordPress. Although I'm still involved in some capacity. It's not my daily thing, you know, like it was a few years ago.
It's interesting though, like the way you are able to actually really move out of all those responsibility and not running even WP Mayo day to day. It's interesting, like probably you have done like even far better job in retiring than me because like my retirement has few phase. It doesn't have to mean like I am not doing anything in a day and I have like full open day. So my main Intention was to get out of the day to day responsibilities and like be able to take decision by my own. So I was able to do that. I am not running like with apps, I'm not being involved much with take Journal, Dhaka times, but still like I go to office because I choose to. It's not like I have to. And I'm able to like travel a lot. Like I'm traveling a lot for past one years. Like day after tomorrow I will actually go to Kolkata. For what camp? Kolkata, it's in India. And for the whole march I will attend like several what camp. So I'm traveling a lot. I'm doing a lot of different things but I'm still like staying inside WordPress.
I think that's fine. Yeah, yeah.
I have not lost my faith. I still feel like this is the ecosystem I love. I have the same feelings as you as feeling powerless, feeling on somebody else, mercy. Like I would not go into much details but last two days has been like horrible for me and my team for some reason and I feel like sometime like people could be in bad mood and people could make like wrong decisions. But how does decision affect a lot of other people? They sometimes don't realize that. And if you give like unlimited power to those people. Yeah, that's not an ecosystem.
Yeah. On your comment of that, I. Of the fact that I was able to retire quite completely, I would say it's kind of also based on my initial goals 10 or 15 years ago, you know, so I've always been passionate about I T stuff and maybe more than I t now that I look back, it was more about having a voice, you know, coming from a very small country, I think there's this kind of this feeling of being nobody, you know, and the Internet and especially WordPress gave me this unique opportunity to just be someone, you know, online. I remember having international customers, you know, that was something just amazing for me because in Malta people work locally and that's it, you know, so being able to move abroad. So WordPress for me was a vehicle for freedom, for achieving my lifestyle. And when that was achieved I kind of organically moved on to other interests.
In normal way that also looks like maturity and like general course of actions. Like you are not supposed to do the same thing for your whole life. I understand that, like that's the main reason I thought like when I decide to retire is because like if I look at my father's life, he wasn't like telecom engineer, he worked for the government and he had done that for 42 years. So that's how like a lot of people are used to it in past, like in our life we had like much better choice, right. Because we got to explore. We're able to actually live in a lot of different countries. And me and my wife, when we were actually like traveling and staying in a lot of different place, we got this opportunity because we did not had our kid for first five years of the marriage. So we are able to like travel even freely because when you have kid you will have to think about like that is school and other things. So I was bringing, I was able to travel at the same time. I feel like if you ask me in my childhood, like what you want to be when you grow up, I would have probably never said like I want to do WordPress. So that is very true. I want to like do more, I want to like help more people or I want to grow more into a lot of like different aspects of life. But that is very true. I could understand from also from the ace point, like as we are the same age, so this is also like a phase of growth of life. You probably want to do like more things that actually give you like more your inner peace at the same time where you have like more opportunity. Just look at WordPress. How many business are in there like that makes like more than $100 million, very less. Or how many business makes like more than $20 million per year in WordPress? So the number is like very small, you see. And we are all focused on that tiny segment of business. If you think in this way, if you think when you look at like all other aspect of like business, there are a lot of people who are making like over 100 or $200 million per year just from a single SaaS for 10, 20 people. Right?
Yeah.
So it is true. I also feel in the same way. So I completely understand you. But I'm saying like you are able to move out from the day to day responsibility. So I would say probably you have like better skill in empowering people and you probably also got like good partners in terms of the course of the life. So you are able to actually shift away from the responsibility.
Yeah. Speaking of what you just said, again, we share a lot of the same background and that we also together with my wife, who spent the first five years of our marriage traveling, we wanted to have kids, but we prioritized travel at that time because we knew this was like once in a lifetime opportunity. And again, it was not something very common, at least in my culture, to just leave everything and go traveling, you know, while you're working is not. It's more common now, but before it wasn't at all something common. Yeah, and another thing is also you mentioned your dad. My dad is an accountant, you know, CFO at a company in Manta. And I've seen him over the years slowly sacrifice all his hobbies and passions, you know, for his job. And even when I was still young, when I saw this process happening, I kind of had this inert thing in me that I never want to be like that, you know, I want to be successful, yes, but in a different way. I want freedom more than I want a job in particular, you know.
So what do you think? Like, in long term, like, I do not think, like, if you do not want to speak about it, it's fine, but, like, we are just like 33, 34 or 35 kind of age, so we'll grow to 40, and hopefully we'll grow to even 50. So what do you see, like, in general terms, like, what do you want to do when you are 40? What do you want to do when you are 50?
What I didn't mention so far was that I always had this passion for being an athlete. You know, my dad, one of his hobbies was. Was being a basketball coach. My mom was a basketball player. And they. They both stopped that when I was young, you know. Okay, so I guess I inherited this love for sports. But, you know, again, coming from a small island, nobody becomes a top athlete, you know, because it's small. So when I actually found Barcelona, you know, and moved here, I discovered Padel, which is the sport that's mainly played in Spain, but is growing a lot in Europe. And I kind of found this immediate passion, you know, the first time I played it. It's like when I first downloaded WordPress and found out that I could make my own site. You know, it's that feeling that somehow I could become an athlete and fulfill my dream. And that's what I'm doing now. And for the next 10 years, this is what I want to be doing if I can manage it, you know, because obviously it requires a lot of physical sacrifice. And. And every hour that I'm not working in terms of making money is also a bit of a questioning factor. As in, like, why am I not using my talents to work and make more money, you know, instead, it's. It's not normal. It's the same thing. Society expects you, if you're successful, to work even harder to be more successful, you know, but that's the thing I question, you know, till where, where will this lead us, you know?
Very true. Like, you buy more luxury. That's what you do.
Yeah, but the same, you know, I rent an apartment here. My mom's always like, why don't you buy an apartment? I'm like, I don't have the money to buy an apartment in Barcelona. And even if I did, I probably wouldn't, you know, because it's the same for me, the flexibility.
And you would probably invest. Yeah, if you have money. Same for me.
So I think it's more of a way of seeing life, you know, I was always very interested in spiritual stuff and meditation and as you grow older, you kind of understand more things about life. And so there are many interests I want to explore and the fact that I have the opportunity to do so because I assembled a good team, I feel very blessed and I just want to take this opportunity and see how long it can last. You know, at the end of the day, as I tell my parents, if things go bad, you know, I can always get back into stuff. I'm not losing all my.
Exactly. Because even after five, six years, we'll be still 40. You could. You could start anything he want.
Yeah.
So that's it. That's a plus point. And also, you see, like, you do not need to actually feel that you are actually missing anything because ultimately you had your life, you have earned money and you have built team and product that could still like keep working on themselves and earn money. So you could have like some portion of it maybe. You will have to actually empower people. So you have to share like ownership stake with your partners as well. So. But still, like, you could feel like good about it, but with time, yeah, you need to have this freedom. And I remember probably I have seen a like TED video where it was actually talking about like how human evolved to be human when all the other humanoid or all those like apes or the kind of like breed they had, they had so much similarities with human in terms of the physique and everything. They did not grow up to be human. So one of the reason was like human was cooking. So because they are cooking and forming society. So they used to spend like less time in finding food and like eating food and digesting food. All the other breed of like animals or ape, they still like spend more time in like in praying or like in finding food or however they are actually like gathering food. So as human cooked, so it was actually easy to digest. And as human formed society, so they got more help from Each other and that free time when they do not have to actually find food. Human was actually exploring that time to create something. They probably come up with the idea with knife or idea with how to actually burn food or whatever they are doing. So that thing actually strike me. I also feel the same like if I do not have to earn money just to live my life, if I had freedom so I could actually even do more things in my life, what I would have do, I would have keep running my companies the same way or I would have done it in different way. So in that time I feel like we need to have this freedom. We do not need to work only because we want to earn money. We need to work because we want to do something better with our life. So this freedom is extremely important. And I do feel like you are actually enjoying this freedom very much. You make your own rule and. And you decide like what you want to do in a day, right? At least in some extent. So good luck to that. And I know like about your athletic passion and probably that game you like a lot of us actually discovered that game because of you. Because you are always writing about Padel, how you are playing. You are more passionate about the culture in Spain, what kind of like tournament you have in Spain. So it's interesting and good luck with that.
Thank you. The funny thing is that I think we should clarify that retirement isn't the traditional retirement that maybe our parents think of. You know, like you're 60 and you stop everything. Because I think that's psychologically very hard, you know, because that really would mess up with my mind if I had to just stop everything.
So it's not possible possible for us in any way. But the people had like hard time in understanding that like you have already read. I had to write like almost like 10,000 word like essay in Hero Press just to explain like why I decide to retire and what does it mean for me to retire. Like I said, like, it doesn't mean like I will not work. It doesn't mean like I will just go anywhere. It means like I will have more freedom to choose what I want to do with my time. It could be that I choose to work on some interesting project that I am passionate about. Or maybe it's possible that I will decide to study or maybe I will choose to actually travel. So it's all up to me. But the main thing is I want to move on to next phase of my life so I have more freedom.
You know, for me, I don't think much changed when I discovered WordPress. It was that same feeling of euphoria. And then just following my passion to doing more WordPress every day because it's what I loved, you know, and same now. I discovered Padel. And let me tell you, I work harder than ever in terms of. Because, you know, getting into top athletic shape at 35 is harder than when you're 15, you know, so I need to catch up with all these guys who have been doing it for. For 20 years, you know, and it's very hard. And, you know, once you're successful at something, I think there's this expectation and expectation that you're going to be successful at everything. So when you start esports and you're just losing and losing and you're the very worst player ever, you know, because you're starting from zero.
Yeah.
And that's what you're doing every day, you know, it's not like you're playing an hour and then going back to your successful other career position at your job. It's very hard, you know, psychologically.
Okay. So it's interesting. My other reason was like, you see, like, I'm running my company for very long time, since 2004. So it's almost like, like 15 years. A lot of people I have, they are actually working for me more than 12 years. So when you run a company for that long, you have a very different kind of bond between those people. You've seen some of them got married, you seen some of them actually had their kid, the kids went to school, everything happened in front of you and because of the business you are running. So you feel like making any kind of decisions for them is also a little bit, like, different than before in terms of running business. I do feel it's always like a cycle. So you come up with an idea, you try something that doesn't work, you try more. Then something started to work. You get, like, very passionate about it and you bring more people to work on those idea and eventually you get success. But that doesn't last very long. You face, like, different kind of struggle in the coming time and then you try something else. And that worked out. Then, like, that is a cycle always, like, keep coming in. And I have been to this cycle so many time in my life that I thought, like, I want to actually, like, move on. I. I want to actually do things in a different way and let me have, like, more choice on what I want to do in my time and what kind of decision I make.
You know, people sometimes chase the end goal and don't Enjoy the process. You know, I've actually was reading a book about tennis today and there were several world number one tennis players who on reaching number one, actually said, like, like, okay, I felt happy for one day and then I just feel empty, you know, because it's like, what now? You know, now it gets even worse because I need to protect the number one position from all those guys behind me who want to take it away. You know, it's much more comfortable when you're number 10 trying to be number one than the other way around. So I think we sometimes focus too much on the end goal, you know.
Like to be beside the journey, to.
Make a million dollars or to become number one. I don't think that should be the goal. You know, be successful, yes, but enjoy the journey as well.
That is very true. And that's very deep as well. Probably for the Youngs, it takes time for them to actually learn this lesson. But for us, we probably have like a lot of things we have done in our life. Probably that's why we came up with those profound understandings.
Yeah, I think. And that's the example I want to show to my kids as well. Not to have this incessant drive to achieve something also, because nowadays there are also so many distractions. You know, with our phones and apps.
And social networks, we could have like complete episode on like the social destruction or digital destruction we have in our life. Like, I have a lot of theories, like I do not pick a phone. So like a lot of people are very annoyed, like why I do not take calls or something. But this digital destruction that we are living right now, God, like people take it for granted. Like if you're calling somebody in anytime, they will pick up. Like maybe I am just in a meeting or I am coding, like why I need to actually break my concentration and like take your calls. So this is very hard time in that way. I feel like if you want to concentrate and like do something really meaningful, this world is not appropriate for us.
Yeah, I do have a lot of opinions and stuff. I tried, you know, with regards to distractions because it's the number one enemy I have. Maybe.
Yeah, yeah. I would really love to actually talk about like this like productivity, how could stay productive and like still deal with these social distractions. I would love to talk.
Well, what I did was lately I just got got two phones and I never used my phone as a, like phone for people to call me. You know, I'm always the kind of person who says, just email me and then I'll call you or. Or we can mostly do it over email, you know, but lately with WhatsApp and Facebook and all this stuff, I found myself chasing the dopamine hit too frequently, you know, waking up, checking Gmail, WhatsApp, whatever. So now I just moved everything off my main phone. The other one is an old phone I don't really like using. And so I just check that once a day. And then on my main phone, I use telegram instead of WhatsApp, so. And okay. Only my wife and parents and sisters, you know, have my contact there. So if somebody's gonna message me there, it's gonna be something important. And so far, it's actually been awesome this past week. That's what I'm doing. Another thing I like to do is going for a retreat. I'm doing it in April, so I go to the mountains for four days. I'll be living easy.
By yourself?
By myself, yeah. So I'll be in a monastery and I'll just be in silence most of the time. And it's amazing when you start quietening the external stuff and focusing inwards day by day and you start seeing the richness that's inside that you never get to access on a daily basis and it has long lasting effects. So it's something I want to do every year.
When is the last time you attended any whatcamp?
Last year. Wordcamp. You were Europe.
Okay. Are you looking forward to attending any Word camps this year?
Yeah, I'll be going to wordcamp Berlin. I mean, wordcamp Europe in Berlin. I actually stopped going to conferences maybe two years ago. I used to do quite a lot of conferences.
Okay.
But I never miss Word Camp Europe, you know, because mostly because I just love catching up with friends, you know, that's the only reason I go there.
Yeah. I will be coming this year, so hopefully I will see you there for sure.
All right. So what do you do about the distractions? Do you have any techniques?
Like, I do not take phone calls right away. So if anybody wants to call, I want to schedule that in a particular time when I could be free and talk to them properly. Another thing I'm trying right now, do only one thing at a time. So when I'm like doing something even in browser or something, I try to actually focus only in there so I do not have to actually look anywhere behind. And like I do not read anything in computer. That that's actually kind of my ritual. So if I come across with like a link or an article, I. I will most likely will try to not to read in the computer as much as possible. I will try to actually save it in phone or for iPad.
How do you do that though?
I use the Pocket. The Pocket app. So if I yeah, I will send it there and like if I'm able to leave without reading that article, maybe it could actually be better for me not to read it at all. So. But not distract myself from the computer when I'm using it. And another thing I tried like for emails instead of like checking emails all the time. I made a rule like I will check emails only three times a day at the start, middle and before going to sleep. That could help. But right now the main struggle I'm facing is also the like instantaneous messengers like WhatsApp and everything. And people expect you will answer. That's the like even more problematic thing. It's not actually that I could make myself clear that I will not check and I could even like disconnect even Internet from the mobile or something. But the problem is people expect like why you are not answering. So it's kind of like their expectations. They expect you to answer. So that's something like I'm still dealing with. I do not know like how to deal with that. Even better right now with the iOS 11 or the new one, it is possible that you actually limit your screen time per app base. So you could limit yourself like how much time you spend in social messaging app. So in that way like you know, like when you. You go over your limit. But I feel like we are still like wasting a lot of time in terms of when you are actually talking about what you are doing with your day. So we probably need even far better way if we want to stay productive. And I have seen a lot of people disable their Facebook doesn't use messenger and they do a lot of different things, but that also have negative side as well. Like for Bangladesh, especially in this country, people are like very much used in doing everything in Facebook in this country. Like if you are out of Facebook, you will miss out a lot of different things. People are very much into Facebook. So if you disable, you lose your touch with everything. Like that's how like it's very tough to live without Facebook. But maybe making is time limited or like checking Facebook only maybe once or twice in a day. That could work maybe.
I understand that completely going off Facebook is difficult. And that's why I think my method of just moving it to another phone is a much more practical way of doing it. Because then I will only check it once a day at Max, you know, and I won't have a. That's instantly accessible all the time. And on the computer it's actually blocked. I use the Freedom app, which blocks Facebook, Instagram and a bunch of other websites. So sometimes you have to build walls around yourself, you know, it's the only way to do it.
Yeah, yeah. Evaluate like what you are doing in a day and see, like, if you want to spend your day like that much on some particular thing, then calculate probably that's a good way. Like before, like we finished today's conversation or anything, I would like to talk to you about one interesting book I read that actually is very close to a lot of like things we are discussing today. I like this book is called Never Eat Alone. I do not know like, if you have read it already. Yeah, it's by Kate Farazi. Interesting thing I like about this book is about like how networking supposed to be. Like, we have spoken about like how you stopped going to like tech conference, like what camps and other things. Like, for me, I'm trying to be like a deeper relationship. I form few, like smaller groups. That group has like, some has like particular purpose. Some has like just like group of people who like to talk to each other. And you see like in generally right now, like I'm talking about in also in Bangladeshi context as well. Like, if you ask somebody who is maybe, maybe 30 years old or more than 30 years old, like, when is the last time you are able to talk to somebody freely for more than a hour, People will say, maybe it could be their cousin or it could be a friend where they're traveling together. But those people, sometimes they could not relate much with their cousin because their life moved so much different. And probably he's into business in a different way. The cousin doesn't understand his business. So that conversation is like, goes more into family, not much into like what's going on with his life. So my intention was to bring the power of conversations, power of like good conversations among people so they talk to each other not because they want to gain something, not because they expect something in return, only for the sake of good conversation. So I would really like to recommend anybody to this book and the concept of like having like really deeper relationship and the value of really good conversation.
Yeah, I've read the book and you know, might not be so easy to do in your culture. I mean, not in Bangladesh, but whoever is listening. But like in southern Europe it's very normal to just, you know, go into a bar or restaurant, start eating and start chatting with the guy next to, you know.
Okay.
And I have lots of conversations like that. And sometimes it's not a one minute conversation. It's like I end up eating with the other person for an hour. And they might be whatever, you know, a policeman or train driver, whatever it is, you know.
Yeah.
And I actually learned a lot from these conversations. And when I go to conferences, some conferences in particular, they're just pushing business cards on my face, you know, And I don't feel like I'm worth anything to them. And they don't even let me access their own real self, you know, because they're just promoting whatever they're promoting and putting on a show. And that at least is what I still find in WordCamp Europe. You know, that's authentic conversation, vacation. So as long as that will be there, I'll be attending World Camp Europe for sure.
Okay, true. Yeah. Like, that is like something we can't have in Bangladesh. That is true.
So how do people network there? Is it more family based?
Not right now, because we live in the capital in Dhaka. Here, a lot of people doesn't live with their, like extended family. And life in Dhaka is extremely busy. So people do not get much time on, like spending with family or like friends. Traveling in Dhaka is very hard. So it takes a lot of time in days to just get to office and come back. The only refreshment or only entertainment we have basically in this in Dhaka, in my city is, is actually going out and eating together. We have like lots of, lots of restaurants in the city. That's like their only refreshment that they could get generally.
Right.
So possibility of having like, good random conversations is also like, very limited in here.
Yeah, that's one of the things I like about Spain, you know, because I mean, people have three hours afternoon break, you know, when they work at an office and they go out, take a full menu, you know, which costs like €12 at max, with three course meal, a glass of wine or beer. You know, these guys are. They've got three hours to kill, you know, and they're obviously, they're gonna start chatting, you know, and after work, the culture is the same, you know, go out for some tapas, some drinks. So it's built into the culture, this kind of networking, you know, so if you're wise about it, you can make a lot of connections like that.
Yeah, Life is very different in here.
I must visit Bangladesh. It's one of the places I haven't been.
Yeah.
And I look forward to exploring it because, you know, it's one of those places which I imagine will be totally different than anything I've seen so far. So it's always interesting.
Bangladesh is like very different in. Very different in. In a way when I say this. Like people might think that India especially the West Bengal, it looks speak and the dress just the same as Bangladesh. But Bangladesh is a very, very, very different place. Like just to give you an example how different it is here is possible to find a people who never ate anything outside in their home. They never eat in a hotel, they never eat in a like a restaurant or anything.
So what would be the reason though? Is it like a money factor?
Yeah, money factor. And also their choice like they will cook by the themselves. So right now it's changing. That's why our GDP is also changing. Right. Bangladesh has the highest GDP growth in the entire world right now is because like if people go out and eat just one burger in a month, that actually increase the GDP because you are like exchanging money, right?
Yeah.
And before that they are not doing it. So it's not like that. A lot of big structures and other things in happening in the country, like roads are improving, a lot of different things is happening. But the change double digit GDP growth all the world see is mainly because people are modernizing. People are doing things that then they have not done ever in their life. So Bangladesh is a very different place. It's my home. I lived here for many, many, many years already. I would like to welcome you anytime you plan. If I'm in the country, we could have really, really good journey. We also have like world's largest and longest sea beach is in Bangladesh, Cox's Bazaar. And we do not have like much of the mountain, but the one we have, we could have like very good hiking trail as well. I went with my wife just two weeks ago without our kids. Just me and my wife ourselves. That's the first trip we have ever done and we had really good experience in terms of like doing the trail and. And going alone for tens of kilometers alone in. In the hills.
Awesome. Thanks. I'm sure you would be a great host if I eventually visit and I'm looking forward to that. All right. So I guess you know, I can talk for a few hours more, but it's probably best to wrap it up here.
Yeah.
And obviously we'll probably to have you back on the show in the future and check on you, see how retirement is going and I'll see you in Wordcamp Berlin. Wordcamp Europe. Sorry, Berlin.
Yeah.
And anything else you want to mention before we wrap it up, for me.
Like, this year will be an interesting test. What I do in terms of mixing SaaS with WordPress and what I do with like, more traveling this year I will travel a lot more. Like, I'm planning to have like almost one month in Europe this year, if possible. And I'm a big fan of cricket. Our main game in Bangladesh. So that World cup is happening in London. So I will be in London already before Berlin. So this will be an interesting year. And I would also like to wish you a very interesting thing, like future for what you are trying and what you are going through. You have like much more clarity in few things in terms of the age, in terms of the what you are actually going through and dealing with. So congratulations. And also maybe you do better in terms of the like, physical aspect of esports. Let's see like where that takes you. Maybe you will. You probably already tried some like, championship kind of game already, so maybe it.
Takes a long time.
Yeah, it will better with time.
Yeah. Well, thanks a lot. I'm obviously very impressed of all that you managed to achieve and definitely I've learned a few things today. So thank you for being with us for this episode and well, I'll see you soon then. Have a great time in Europe and see you in Berlin.
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