#40 Protecting Original Work with Trademarks, Copyrights & Licencing Agreements, plus working with high-level influencers, with Mike Satterfield of RBR Wholesale and The Gentleman Racer

Get ready for episode number 40 with Mike Satterfield of RBR Wholesale and Original Cowgirl clothing Company. Let's talk about your business strategy and the juicy details of what actually works, from mainstream fashion to fashion on Main street and the entire ecosystem behind it. How do we scale your company and do it with the balance and the happiness that we all seek? Let's hear from those insiders, experts and strategists that actually make it happen. I'm your host, Ashley Alderson from the Boutique Hub, and I can't wait to chat. Hey, guys, I hope you have a notebook ready for this week's podcast episode, because we're visiting with someone today who I value his opinion and insight so much in this industry. He's seen it for a number of years from so many different angles. Today, Mike Satterfield and I are going to talk about a big topic that's impacting not only wholesale brands and makers, but also boutiques inside of our industry. And that's the topic of copyright issues, trademark infringement, and licensing agreements. We're going to talk about what you need to know as a wholesale brand, but also as a boutique owner carrying original work from these wholesale brands. We're also going to talk about what it means to have a licensing agreement so that you can carry branded merchandise like big company names and logos, college sports teams, you name it. Because there's a lot of misconceptions out there in the industry, then we're going to dive into something that I'm not sure many people know about Mike, and that is that Mike has a double life, if we can call it a double life as an influencer. And he's an influencer in the automotive industry. Now, if you follow his account, the Gentleman Racer, you're going to see all kinds of cool experiences, fast cars, and everything you need to know about what's trending in automotive. So Mike's going to take us behind the scenes as an influencer and talk about the contracts that he has in place, how to value ROI when you're working with an influencer, and what's the best way to go about finding an influencer to work with in your business. He'll also let us know what it's been like at RBR Wholesale and Original Cowgirl as people have reached out to their company to ask about being an influencer on their behalf. So get ready, take some notes. And I love visiting with Mike. If you joined us last year at Western Summit, you got to see him on a panel. And if I can be a spoiler in case you haven't seen the news this year, Mike's going to be back again to dive even deeper into some of these business topics at the 2019 Western Summit. So, guys, please help me welcome my friend, Mike Satterfield.

Hey, guys.

Welcome to the show this week. I am so excited for what you.

Are about to hear because not only today are we going to talk about a great story of a brand that's been around this industry for a long time and sees how the industry is unfolding before us. But we're also going to dig into some key takeaways around trademarks and copyrights and licensing agreements, along with tips for working with influencers. So, as we dig in, I can't wait to introduce you to Mike Satterfield with RBR Wholesale, Red Barn Ranch. Mike, thanks for being with me today.

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here, man.

So you and I have had. I'm trying to think the first time we really had a conversation, probably more than a year and a half ago, you've been a member of the Boutique Hub. You joined us to speak at Western Summit, and I always appreciate our conversations because you've got such a great perspective on the industry.

Well, thanks. Yeah, I mean, I really appreciate everything you guys do at the Boutique Hub and kind of creating this awesome forum for us to interact and connect with brands and boutiques and everyone. It's been a really great experience working with you guys, man.

I appreciate that. And your foresight in terms of what's happening is just, it's great, great information to have and great conversations that we've had about it. As we dig into two key topics that I know you have a lot of thoughts around today, I want to just give kind of some backstory about your business, about your family business, and how you guys came to the spot that you are today. So do you mind kind of laying that framework of RBR and. And what it is?

Sure, of course. Well, RBR actually started out back in about 1985, so I was 4 when my mom started the company. And it was mostly a retail kind of home decor, western kind of themed store that was actually in a converted barn on our old ranch in California. So my mom did like retail events and things like that. And then as she kind of started growing the business, she started producing more things and people started buying them for their boutiques. And then I guess it'd be in the mid to late 90s, it kind of switched over to a full wholesale business and we closed down the Retail store. In that time period, I had gone to college, you know, gone starting career in the automotive industry. And then around, I guess 2005, she started selling and reselling western clothing through her wholesale business. And I kind of got involved in designing some of it because I kind of figured how hard could it be? It's really hard. But we started designing some of our own clothes and launched in 2007 with the brand original cowgirl and, and Morgan's, a Phillips speed shop. And yeah, it kind of just grew from there. And now we're, you know, we're located in California and Texas, making a move to Texas. And we've been around the industry for a long time in the apparel side and the retail side. And it's really been kind of interesting to see it change from really a person to person printing catalogs and all that to a pretty much 100% online business.

I was. That was going to be my next question is. I mean, you and I, we've. We've been around each other at a number of shows, you know, Dallas, Denver. And I'm curious your thoughts just on how the industry has changed, you know, especially in the last three to five years and kind of where you see that moving next.

Yeah, I mean like I said, it's. It's really migrated to basically a fully online business. There isn't really a whole lot of, you know, the need of the shows as much anymore. I mean, they're still important. It's great to have that FaceTime. We love interacting with our customers. But the fashion industry, about 10 years ago released, started moving to that fast fashion model and the Western especially side was always a few years behind that. But it's kind of in full swing now. I mean, Western's gone mainstream, so you have that fast fashion aspect of competing with, you know, bigger chains like the Buckle that are very western and Boot Barn, which is a western store. And they're coming out with new products consistently. So it's really upped the pace and the turnaround time for development and creating products that we'd never really seen before. So it's been a big shift and a big change for the whole industry.

Yeah, how have you guys adapted to that? I mean, what shows are you still currently showing at and how are you approaching new customer acquisition and serving your existing customers?

Well, we've pulled back a lot on the actual physical trade shows. We're doing more of a kind of strategic visiting certain regions and mixing our shows up. So like we might do a Billings, Montana show one year and Then another year doing Atlanta and. And it's really more about just visiting with our existing dealers that are in those regions and just getting them that FaceTime. But essentially all of our orders are almost all done through some form of Internet. We do have a couple customers still fax us over orders and stuff like that, but for the most part everything's online. And the boutique hub has been a huge part of finding new customers and just connecting through the Facebook group and things like that, which is where so much business is happening now. I mean, we have business happening through Facebook and Instagram, Twitter even, and through our own website.

You were telling me earlier that you even launch your new arrivals. I mean, you go right to Instagram, which I think is so interesting for a wholesale model because even some brands are so secretive about releasing their products. They don't want anyone else to see what's new. You know, only their customers. But you, you've really taken the bull by the horns and just let it, you know, it is what it is. Like you want your customers to see it first, generate excitement and you know, what's the old saying? Do it first, do it best.

Exactly. And you know, we, we have so many of our wholesale buyers that follow us on Instagram and since we're releasing new product pretty much every single month, I mean there's something new coming out. We have to have the stuff turned around and quick and have the photos ready. Because what we do is when we launch something, we have a photo database for our customers so they can have access to those lifestyle photos right away and start promoting and selling product. And especially for like our drop ship customers and things like that, we have to have all that stuff pretty much ready to go so they can put it on online and start making sales right away again. It's a quick turnover. It's not seasonal like it used to be.

Yeah. Would you say, I mean, just because you've seen so much evolution in your own business, if there's one thing you would go back and ever do differently, what would that be?

Well, we probably would have moved out of California a lot sooner just because we kind of ran out of space in California and space in California is expensive. So we did enjoy. We are enjoying building our new building out and getting all that set up here in Texas. But other than that, I mean there's really not a whole lot of different that we would have done. I mean, it's been kind of a play by ear and go with the ebb and flow of things. So the industry has shifted so much. I mean, hindsight's always 20 20. There's stuff that we know now that we didn't know a few years ago that would have been nice to know. But in the moment, I mean, it's just kind of a reaction to what's happening and trying to respond to trends as fast as possible.

Yeah, let's kind of shift gears a little bit. I know you work with a ton of retailers all over the US and I'm sure all over the world as well. If there is something you would say that your most successful retailers have in common, you know, do you think you can draw those lines between their success and tips for those who are listening?

Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that our top retailers have is they have their own identity of their boutique and they found products that we have because we have a large range of products that really fit their identity and they stay true to that more than just chasing every trend and ending up with this gigantic sale rack full of stuff that didn't really connect with their audience because they didn't buy stuff that really fit their core kind of, I guess, demographic or their core beliefs or style or whatever they were known for. So I think that our top stores really have an aesthetic that they carry through not only their design, but their photography, the types of products they carry, the way they, they do their flat lays, the way they, they interact with their customers, it has a consistency to it. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that if you can find not only your niche, but really have a consistent way of presenting your brand and your branding, it's going to make a huge difference in your business.

Man, you're spot on. And you don't even know this, but you segue perfectly into one of the key points I want to talk about today. Because I think whether you're a brand or a retailer, being original and knowing your customer and serving them first is the most important thing you can do. But unfortunately, in the world of social media, it's created a lot of really lazy business owners that have watched other people climb to success and then all they want to do is copy it and knock it off. Right. And it's all about turning things for a quick buck and seeing what someone else is doing and slapping it on a T shirt yourself and trying to go down that same road. So could you kind of talk to me about, you know, this is something we talk about in the boutique hub quite a bit because we're trying to raise the bar ethically. You know, the standards in the Industry. Tell me what you're seeing, you know, in this same playing field of all these copyright trademark issues and people just trying to make a quick buck.

Well, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's always been an issue. I mean, in the industry if someone comes up with something that's popular and it gets copied. The difference is now technology has made it to where almost anybody can purchase a at home, direct to garment type printer or a vinyl cutter and make knockoffs of products fairly quickly. And now you have the added issue of overseas manufacturers that are jumping in in a big way and putting a lot of money into like Facebook ads and things like that, where they'll literally take your intellectual property, the actual photo that you took of your product, and then run a Facebook ad and sell it directly against you for 10, 20, 30% of your actual cost. I mean, we've seen some of our shirts pop up in these ads and they're selling them for $9. And you know, then we're getting people contacting us, upset that they've ordered a shirt from us that they paid $9 for. And it's been three months. So it's, it's a really interesting place we're in now because intellectual property is so important, especially in building a brand. But it's kind of like the wild west on the Internet when it comes to dealing with these different brands and people overseas.

Yeah. And in case anyone's listening and they aren't yet familiar with this, I mean, these are because I'm naming names here, but Bella, Lilly, Fairy Season, they get reported so much on Facebook, they're constantly changing their name to something new or have 10 accounts under the same name. But I think it's something we have to stand together and also educate our customers on. So they, like you said, you know, if your customers are coming to you and complaining, they have to understand the major quality difference that they're going to receive there too.

Oh yeah. I mean, and that's the thing, is that they're using your branding and your products and photos of your actual good, high quality stuff and selling an inferior product. And it goes beyond that because we see this a lot in the industry where people are, you know, using other branded things like the, the big Louis Vuitton craze we've all seen has been super popular. And some of that's on the edge of like, you know, is it art and a one off. And some of it is, you know, definitely trademark violation where you're cutting up Louis Vuitton fabric Materials that could or could not be real. And you're making your own jewelry and cuffs and hat patches out of them. And it's one of those things that you just have to understand that you're, you're playing with fire. And I, I know retailers that have had, you know, Marshall show up at their, their place of business and seize their, their computers and their records and freeze their bank accounts because they were selling essentially counterfeit goods that were being traded on someone else's trademark.

Yeah, we've heard a number of those instances in the Boutique Hub as well. And I think you're absolutely right. You have to come down to asking yourself if it's worth it at the end of the day, you know, with what could happen. Because I, I believe we're just at the beginning of a major crackdown that's going to happen on the Internet because this has been going on like the wild, wild west for far too long. You agree?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you're seeing, you know, more and more cease and desist letters going out. You're seeing a lot more brands getting involved in licensing and working with larger companies. We work with several different brands for doing licensed apparel and license production of apparel for them. And it's, it's a, it's a process that takes a lot more. A lot of work to do licensing correctly. But it's a way that one prevents you from being on the hook legally for what can be tens of thousands of dollars in fines, plus whatever profit you made and other expenses like lawyers and things like that. But it also, it gives you legitimacy and it gives your brand and your store legitimacy when someone walks in and you're selling them a product that is, let's say, like our Golf, our Golf oil products that are officially licensed by Golf, they have that Golf oil sticker on them and they can look it up on the Golf website and see that it is an approved product that has some value to people as opposed to, well, yeah, I just buy these patches overseas and throw them on hats and we sell them and we're not paying anyone who owns that intellectual property. It just gives you an air legitimacy and it gives you a standard of product too, because all of our products that we do with licensing companies have to be approved by them, have to meet minimum product quality standards, and we get audited randomly for sending them products so they can pull them out of the line and see what the quality is to make sure that we're keeping to those standards.

Man. Let's, let's talk more about this Because I think that there's a lot of misconceptions here when it comes to licensing and what you can and cannot take in print on goods. Let's give a couple examples I know you and I have talked about previously, even in Facebook messages of things that we've seen people post Disney characters, pictures of famous people, say, like Dolly Parton or George Strait or Johnny Cash is.

A big one, John Wayne. Those are all big ones.

Yeah, yeah. Can you kind of break down, like, what is the line, what's the line in the sand of what can be printed, what can't be printed, and what do you need to do to go about licensing?

Well, I mean, the kind of baseline thing you should ask yourself is, did I create this? And if the answer is no, you're probably in trouble. You're probably not going down the right path. Because, you know, a lot of people seem to be under the misconception that if I Google an image and find it on Google, that image is now free for me to use. That may not be the case. There's images that are uploaded for editorial value. There's images that are uploaded under license. There's images that are. Are granted license for stories and things like that that are not then becoming public domain. And I think that's one thing that people misunderstand. Just because something is available publicly and you can download does not mean it is in the public domain. And that. That's a big, big problem. I see a lot of this with the Dolly Parton, Johnny Cash, John Wayne in the Western world, but I mean, we see it with Disney movies, all types of famous musicians, people's names and likenesses. It basically comes down to if. If you didn't create it, you're probably going to be in violation of someone's trademark or copyright.

So even as a retailer, that's listening, because I know there's both brands and retailers here. So if you're a brand, obviously that's the question you ask yourself. But also as a retailer, I think it's under. It's important to understand the risk that you put yourself at when you invest in that type of inventory. You run the risk of someone coming back to you and going, you know what? This was in violation of this licensing agreement or this trademark, and you've got to pull it off your shelves and now you're out, you know, the couple grand that you invested in that merchandise. So you always have to be asking that question of, you know, is this produced legally and ethically 100%, because there's.

Been cases where retailers have had shutdowns done and inventory seized. And it's. It's really just a. A, again, a quality. A quality standard and an ethics standard that if you want to start selling stuff that's, you know, knockoff, and that's what your business is, and you want to be the person that sells knockoffs, that's fine. Go ahead and just own it. Be that person. But don't get offended or surprised when people call you out on it, because there is a lot of that in the industry where people get upset that they're. They're like, hey, you know, you can't use XYZ's logo or person or name or photo. It's. It's. It's. It's a funny thing that people get so upset about it. It's like you didn't create it. Now, there are very rare exceptions, like if you're making a. One of a kind of piece of artwork, even if it's wearable artwork, like a single jacket, a single handbag, a single hat, like, you can do that. It's when you're mass producing or buying quantities or making things that are obviously a production item, where if you're making like five of the same purse, that'd be a production item. If you're making one purse, it's more of a gray area. But another thing you can always ask yourself is, especially with like, these Louis Vuitton or Gucci or other major, major brands, is the value of the product because of the artistry you've put into the bag? Or is the value of the product because it is a Louis Vuitton bag? And if you're honest with yourself, you know that bag is selling because it's a Louis Vuitton bag, because there are thousands of blank, cool fringe bags with really neat paintings and artwork on them that aren't selling for $2,500.

Boy, that's a. That's a great point. How would you suggest that brands that are listening go about the first steps of protecting themselves and their own work? Let's talk about, you know, trademarks, copyrights, kind of difference between. Or how you would get started with a licensing agreement.

Sure. Well, a trademark is, you know, a wording or a logo, things that you do. And of course, everyone knows how you can trademark an item. You know, trademark a logo or a name. We have several trademarks in our portfolio. But one of the things that most people tend to kind of confuse is trademark and copyright. And copyright is for works of art or literature, things like that, and those are copyright from day one. Now there are restrictions on what you can do legally as far as like monetarily seeking compensation if you don't register the copyrights. But that's, that's a whole other deeper legal issue that you should talk to your copyright or trademark attorney about. But yeah, there's a lot you can do in that. But the main thing is, is protecting yourself is, is find a good trademark attorney. Stuff that's, I've done a lot of trademarks myself using like online legal processes. As long as you have a little bit of time to really read through it and figure out what you need to have to file a trademark, those services work fine. And you just want to do some research before you go and invest a lot of stuff into your brand. Like, you know, go on the. There's a federal database where you can search current trademarks. There's. Make sure that no one has already trademarked your million dollar idea because you can invest all that time and money and effort into creating a really cool brand that you now don't really own. So that's just one thing. Make sure that you have not only done the research ahead of time, but you kind of have, you know, planned out where your trademarks are going to be and where you're going to, what hill you're going to die on. Like, we have people who copy a lot of our shirts in spirit, but not to the letter. Like, you know, common phrases, you cannot copyright them because they're in the common vernacular. You just can't. You know, some people like to pretend like, oh, I own Jesus, take the wheel. It's like, no, you're not the first person to put that on a T shirt. Sorry. But you know, there, there's, there's copyright things like that where it's just like, you know, you can go fight it. You can maybe send a cease and desist. You might be able to get them to take it down, but it's probably not worth the effort. If it's a brand name like your trade, your trade name like our, our, one of our brands, Original Cowgirl, we defend that trademark very vigorously. And we've had several cases over the years that we've had to win and you know, basically send cease and desist and actually go to legal court with people to win because they were illegally using our trademarks.

And we'll make sure that we link in the show notes both to, We've used legal zoom a number of times for trademarks, so we'll link to that in the show notes and then also the US Trademarks office where you can go and search what's in existence and I'm right there with you. I agree. We own several trademarks ourselves and one of them that we get the most, I'll say pushback on or we have to reach out and ask people to take this down most often is Boutique Boss. Hashtag Boutique Boss. Other people trying to sell products or services or T shirts, which that's our jam because we really are the ones who started using that hashtag. So it's important to know you do your research ahead of time and then you have a leg to stand on. But there's no trademark. You're just kind of out.

Yeah. And I mean the thing too, like common things that people think are common. Google it. And if there's like a bunch of results that come up under one company's name, like Life is Good. That sounds like a very common phrase, but that's a very well known clothing company called Life is Good. Boy Mom, Girl mom. Those, those are both trademarked names for Boy mom clothing. And I see a lot of people doing, you know, Boy mom, you know, things, versions of that that are going to get them in trouble because that company now is going around and searching and finding people to send cease and desist letters to. So yeah, a little bit of research saves you a lot of headache.

What's your thoughts on, you know, there's a line where there's a legal yes, you can or can't copy this basically. Right. Common phrase versus an original work. What's your thoughts and opinions on the legal design law and the ethical design law? Because, you know, just because you can knock something off because it's not protected doesn't necessarily mean you should.

Oh totally. I mean there's, there's been cases where we've actually had almost like, it's like some of it's like group think where like I've, I've had a company contact and said, hey, you copied us. And I was like, I've never even heard of you. I don't know who you are. And we just had come up with something that was very similar that, that happens if you're going out and you're maliciously copying someone because you're trying to take their market share. One, you're going to be seen as someone who is maliciously copying someone and trying to take market share, which doesn't do you a lot of goodwill in the small clothing industry. In the bigger markets we see it all the time. I mean Target gets in trouble for this all the time. Forever 21 gets in trouble for this all the time, but they've got so much cash flow and turnover, they don't care. But in our industry, which is such a small industry, and where your reputation matters even more, because these are all interpersonal relationships, I just recommend not doing it. I mean, there's. There's things that are going to, of course, be similar. Like, you know, if. If sugar skulls are in, of course everyone's gonna have a sugar skull kind of shirt. It. You know, that's different than blatantly copying somebody. But we've seen it all the time where we had. We've had stuff that came out that was very similar. We actually had one not that long ago with a design that we had on a hat, and the company contacted us and said, hey, this is really close to something that we already have out. And side by side, legally, yeah, they looked different. You know, they were. But I mean, at a glance, it could be seen as similar. And we let them know, like, hey, no problem, you know what, we don't want to have brand confusion for our brand with yours anyways. So we'll just, you know, sell through whatever, you know, 25 or 30 that we have and we'll discontinue it. And they agreed to that. So, I mean, there's a lot of. A lot of malicious stuff. I think the mistake most people make is they automatically assume it's malicious. And almost all of it is either chance, false memory, they saw it somewhere, forgot they saw it somewhere, then it became an epiphany to them of something they needed to create. And most of this stuff can get sorted out with a friendly phone call or over a coffee, and it's usually not a big deal. I think that's one of the things. If you could just start with that phone call and not start with, oh, they're trying to screw me over. It really helps everybody out and opens up lines of communication.

Oh, man, it's such a good point. And I hope everybody heard that, because we see this daily inside of the boutique hub. And, you know, a little grace goes an awful long way when you're approaching this topic and not just jumping to conclusions. But, you know, as I was listening to you speak, the one thing that came to mind was if you ever come across the words, hey, can you make this for me? That's where you need to turn and run. Like, that's where there's a problem, whether it's a retailer, you know, taking a screenshot of a shirt and sending it to a brand or a brand asking, you know, share your screenshots. What would you like us to make? We do, quote, unquote, custom work. Yeah, they like to say, but just steer clear of the can you make this for me? Question.

Yeah, definitely. And another thing, too, that a lot of people don't realize, it was with the bigger brands. And we found this with one of our kind of, like, little legal issues we ran into is they're contracting with third or sometimes, you know, subcontracted other artists to do their graphics or their design work or whatever. So we had a very major brand, I mean, that's sold at Sears and Boot Barn and everything like that. And they literally not only copied three of our shirts almost exactly, but they'd actually even used our trademarked brand name in one of them. And, yeah, I was like, I got. Someone emailed me and says, hey, you know, you guys, that's cool. You guys are selling at Sears. I'm going, no, no, we don't sell the big, you know, national retailers. So that's interesting. And it turned out, you know, again, but it was a phone. I sent an email, made a phone call, talked to their vice president. And what we did with it was right after Hurricane Harvey. So we said, hey, you know, you guys have probably a thousand shirts. You can't sell them anymore, obviously, because, I mean, it says our brand name on them, but let's donate those to the hurricane relief. And they thought that was a great plan and it worked out good for everybody. And it was a win. Win. I think if, as an industry, if we can again try to start with, I'm going to give you the benefit of a doubt that it was an honest mistake. Instead of just trying to, you know, shame people online or scream and yell at people, or immediately call up your lawyer and write your lawyer a check for 1500 bucks to send a letter. I think that, again, most people are innocent in their copying, and it's just one of those things that in the industry, if we can all get better at just communication, it'll make it easier on everybody.

Boy, drop the mic. That was very well said. I completely agree. You brought up a good point that I'd love to get your feedback on. And really, again, this is something that's shifting big in the industry right now is selling to majors. What's your thoughts about brands today like yours who choose to sell to independence first and foremost and avoid selling into some of the major stores?

Yeah, it's really hard because we've had some major deals with. We've had big brands come to us wanting to either buy designs from us outright and take them away from our brand and just use them in their brand. Some of our graphics and things like that. And we've had major retailers come to us and we've had big meetings with them. And like, we tried to point out that, hey, you know, we try to find ways to see if we can work with them in either creating a unique line or a separate standalone line or a private label line for them. But for our focus, for our core brands, those are always going to be focused on independent retailers, online catalog, boutique online catalogers and things like that, really small independent stores, because we want them to kind of be a special brand. It's the biggest problem that a lot of brands I see get themselves into is they get into like a buckle. And we, we actually had a project where we sold to a big chain similar to the buckle. We won't say who they were, but we sold to this big chain and they took all our products off the first order, sent them to China and copied them almost exactly. I mean, enough to where we couldn't go after them, but basically the spirit of the entire line was copied and then released their own version. And these big corporations, if they're buying, you know, 20, 30, 40,000 pieces, if they can save $0.50, $0.10, $0.20 per item, they're going to do that. And that's a big pitfall that I think a lot of brands get suckered into is they, they go into a big major retailer, they build all this product, they, they think that they've got this, you know, gravy train that's going to flow. And basically they were just a market research test to see what sold and what they needed to copy.

And I'm blown away that that happened to you, but I, I've been on the inside of a few of those deals and have seen something similar, similar where they've demanded such a, you know, that the brand takes such a price cut that basically you're selling for less than what your cost is. You know, you're giving the product away to them. You're not making anything. And is it really driving that much brand awareness to grow your brand at the end of the day with the consumer? I mean, the verdict's out on that.

Well, absolutely. We've, we've seen that several times too, with, with friends and other, other entrepreneurs that we know that have gone into these things. And another thing too is some of these contracts can be incredibly Restrictive on who else you can sell to. If the product doesn't sell and they have to discount it, they then take a further chunk out. They take that discounted rate out of your, your price when they finally pay you. And sometimes they're paying you 180 days out or more. So it can be a big stretch for a small company who thinks, oh cool, I got into a Target or a Buckle or, you know, another big chain and I've seen it bankrupt several people that thought it was going to be their biggest, their big payday and it just turned out to be a complete nightmare, man.

Yeah, your, your own pride could definitely bankroll for someone else and hurt you in the end. Let's switch gears a little bit because I think you have a very unique side to you that most people, or I would say most people maybe in the boutique hub don't yet know about. So I'd love to switch gears. Tell me about the Gentleman Racer. Tell me about the influencer in you and how that all got started.

Well, the Gentleman Racer is a kind of men's automotive lifestyle website that I started several years ago. It's an award winning website. We've won some awards recently, which is kind of cool. So that was kind of fun. But yeah, it's a fun site that I get to tell stories and travel and do things that I like to do and tell the stories I like to do. And as an influencer, I've worked with some major brands like Sony and Suave Men Care and different automotive companies, motorcycle companies over the years. And it's a really fun thing. But it's given me so much insight into how the influencer space should work and where it works for our side of the business with the clothing company. And it's kind of an interesting kind of overlay because we've been able to cross over a lot of those things between the two.

So when you hear questions today about working with influencers, I know you've had a number of big deals, you know that you've worked and I know you're humble. So you're probably not going to just like offer this up. But tell us more about some of the opportunities that you've had through this website. And when people ask today about working with influencers, you have so much great advice to share. So I'd love to dig into that even a little bit further.

Sure. Well, yeah, some of the kind of craziest things. I've been able to drive Baja race cars across Mexico because of this website on a vacation package that would regularly cost you five or six thousand dollars to go do. I've been able to travel to about 35 countries doing stories, working with brands, creating content, doing photography, things that I enjoy doing. I've got an upcoming trip to Sacramento in a couple of days where I'm going to be driving some new cars I can't talk about yet on the, on the racetrack up at Thunder Hill. So it's, it's a really fun thing. I've gotten to do some just wild experiences. But the industry of influencing is so, so different because it's, it's, it's really formalized now and a lot of people, especially in the fashion blogger side and the, the western industry are still a little behind the behind the curve on how things work. And it really has become a professional marketing organization type thing that we're working with big brands and there's budgets and timelines and I've got, I've got briefs and stuff I have to follow and things like that. So it's a very different thing I think than most people consider. It's not just taking a picture on Instagram and being done. There's a lot of reporting and back end stuff that most people probably don't realize happens.

Can you talk more about that? Like specifically how you and the brands first connect with one another. And granted now I know that you are a big time leader in this space, so some of that probably happens more organically than it started off as. But how does that initial contact take place? And then if you can highlight, you know, some of those contractual agreements and how you build campaigns with these brands, what's that look like?

Well, how kind of got started was, I mean, it was literally just me talking about things that I liked. And once you build up enough of an audience to where people are finding you, there's a lot of agencies and things like that. The western world doesn't really have a lot of that right now and a lot of boutique world doesn't. There is a lot of it in travel, there's a lot of it in automotive, but fashion's kind of still on the outer edges except for the really, really big, big blogs and things like that. But yeah, now, I mean it's, it's everything from brands approaching me to me sending a tweet to a brand saying, hey, I'd love to create something with you. We get on our end as the, as a brand, we get Instagram messages and Twitter messages and emails all the time from barrel racers and beauty queens and things like that who want to be sponsored or work with us. And I, I think the thing that's fundamentally changed is when I first did it, nobody was asking for pretty much any evidence of anything that you did. It was just like they were throwing money at it and hoping that it worked. And now there's a lot more matrix and organization and measurement and things like that that have, have come into it that make you more accountable but also provide better value for the, the brand that's working with you.

What is a, if you were going to say there's one collaboration type or campaign type that you see as successful, what is a great campaign look like?

Well, I mean it's anything that's experiential. So anything where you can go and really take your viewer, whether it's on YouTube or it's through your Instagram or Instagram stories, anything that allows people to kind of escape with and go do something you normally wouldn't be able to do. I mean most people don't get a chance like to go behind the scenes in a NASCAR race or you know, see what it's like to ride a motorcycle cross country. Anything where you can tell a unique story and organically plug a brand into it works the best. It's the standalone picture of a product where it's like buy our product. That's it just in people's brains get shut off automatically. And a lot of this stuff is laid out in those contracts like we were talking about earlier. I mean there's, there's contracts that I get to say okay, on this date we need this posted, this posted. And then there's reporting requirements on the back end of it. Some stuff is you know, sent to them for pre, pre approval for like wording and messaging and other stuff. Like we'll have brand meetings ahead of time before we go out on a live event and do stuff. I was doing a comp A campaign with ebay Motors in Detroit where I was doing live broadcasts for their Instagram and Facebook pages. And we had, we had you know, six hours of rehearsal ahead of time to go do our kind of more spontaneous live stuff. And it was still kind of ad libbed and kind of loosely, but we had a structure that was in place. So there's a lot that goes into it, but it's, it's basically again taking people on an adventure with you that I think really shows them how they can use a product in their life or how, how can it better them in some way.

Man, that's a great piece of information and feedback. It's not just, you know, as I think about that through a boutique owner's lens, it's not just hammer send you this shirt and you wear it and post about it on Instagram. You know, it's so much deeper than that and it's about, you know, the blogger being true to their lifestyle and to their fans and, you know, not going beyond and betraying the trust of the follower who is engaging with the influencer.

Yeah, it definitely has to feel natural because otherwise, you know, people catch on to that really quick and, you know, again, everyone has their disclosure. You know, this is a sponsored post. But if it's a sponsored post that blends seamlessly with your everyday thing, you know, if you're, if you're a beauty blogger and you're doing beauty shots all day long and then you do one that's got, you know, for Mac cosmetics and then that's fine, your fans will forgive you if it's all those things and like a cat food ad in the middle of it, you're probably gonna lose a lot of people.

If you could give a boutique owner who is just wanting to get started working with influencers, if you could give her a key piece of advice or takeaway on how, how to do this, how to structure it, what would that be?

Ask your influencers to put together a sponsorship deck. Now these are, we've been using them in the advertising world for years. It's basically like a 1 to 5, 10 page layout of who they are, what their style is, what the aesthetic is, showing evidence of their past work, what their reach is, all those things. We get hit up all the time by people who are like, do you sponsor people? It's like, why would we sponsor you? And they're like, because I ride horses and I like your shirts. Well, that's great. We really appreciate that you like our shirts, but, you know, we need to have something that we can, you know, tie to it or measure. So definitely you want to have a good idea of who they are and how they fit your brand and if they fit your brand's, you know, look and feel and lifestyle is definitely, I mean, someone who has 500,000 followers but is a off road racer isn't going to appeal to a barrel racer, perhaps. So if your brand is all about horses or if your brand is all about glamour and you're working with, you know, a tough mudder and you're doing a glamorous thing, like it's not going to work. So just because someone has big reach doesn't mean it's the right reach. So make sure that you're working with an influencer that really does kind of capture your brand value. And the number one influencer for most boutiques should be the boutique owner themselves or one of their employees that's engaging and people want to buy from their friends. We have some, some retailers that do this very, very well. And they, they do a ton of sales through their Instagram, through their Facebook feeds. And that, that is where I think a lot of the boutique owners have a huge advantage, is that they are kind of their core demographic. They started that business because that's what they're passionate about. That's what they love. They like the clothing, they like the style. They live that lifestyle. They're probably going to be the best influencer for their business out of anybody. And building up their own personal brand or their storage brand and being the face of that can be huge for them big time.

Man. That's. That is a big trend happening in this industry right now. And I don't want to say it's a trend, but I mean, it's a fact. People want to do business with people, and every business has to have a charismatic leader, whether it's the owner or somebody else. I think that's a really great point that you make. You know, let's look at that from another perspective. And you and I have had a lot of discussion about Western industry influencers because that's really blown up in the last couple years. If you were going to give them a piece of advice, how can they become more of a really professional blogger like you would be in the automotive industry? What advice would you leave them?

Well, actually treat it like a job. You know, you wouldn't walk into your job interview for, you know, your first job out of college, be like, hi, I'm cute. Give me a job like that. Wouldn't. Wouldn't fly. But a lot of people, that's their first approach. They don't think. Think of it. They just send a message or an email, send me free shirts, and I'll wear them on my Instagram or sponsor me or do you guys sponsor people? And on the auto industry, we work with this too, because we do a lot of automotive aftermarket stuff. So people are always wanting parts for their cars and things like that. So if you really want to do this and you want to blow brands away, your first message should be something along the lines of, hi, you know, I'm a influencer with about 5,000 followers or whatever your follower count is. I'm creating content with brands like yours. Here's a link to three pieces of content I've created in the last, you know, six months or 90 days. And here's a link to my press kit or my media kit. I'd love to work with you. Why don't we try something out where it's either just a product exchange and then we have also monetary, you know, buy ins you can do as well. I mean, the thing I think most brands or most bloggers don't understand is that there's marketing dollars to be spent too for the right influencer and the right, right branding. And it's, you know, you're creating stuff. You're a photographer, you're a makeup artist, you're. You're doing all those things that a brand generally has to hire, you know, a whole team to do. So understanding that and showing how you're providing that value and what that value is worth, I think is a big key. Because when I get up, when I get a pitch from someone who's like, hey, you know, I have a Western blog. We have 10,000 unique monthly visitors. We'd love to do something featuring some of your products in our next fashion editorial shoot. If you could send stuff, here's our address and here's a link to our press kit for more information. That's a done deal. I forward those over to the office, say, send them three of our newest things and get it done. It's the. I don't have time to have 25 Instagram messages back and forth with you because you want a free T shirt. And again, if you step up the level of professionalism, you'll be blown away at how much more work you'll get as a blogger or an influencer or even just a creator.

Yeah, man, really well said. Really appreciate that advice. Very spot on. You know, kind of as we wrap up our time together today, which there's been so many great takeaways. Mike, I really appreciate this podcast and I know everyone who's listening will too, on a number of different levels. But I kind of want to wrap up with two last questions. One is, you, as a leader of your company, where do you go on a daily basis for your own inspiration? I mean, because it's easy to get burnt out in what we do because we're going 90 all the time. So where do you go to look for mentors or new ideas or to stay on top of industry trends?

I actually look outside of the industry a lot because we were really focused on Western. And we're also Focused on the vintage, like American automotive scene. Those are things that I grew up in, so I kind of know them well. I have a lot of friends in those industries so I really tend to look outside of this industry to. I have a really good friend who is a, he works in the shipping industry, but he's a very good businessman and I talk, talk with him a lot, bounce things off of him as far as business stuff goes. But as far as trends and all that, I'm always looking at what's going on in pop culture, music and things like that because those, those are the trends that are trickling in to the western and kind of more mainstream Americana type stuff. So yeah, I mean I try to get outside of the industry because the western side especially is very, very backwards looking in some ways and also very insular. They, they, there's companies been making the same pair of jeans for you know, 40 or 50 years. And that's fine, that's great, they're iconic. But the next level stuff that the, especially the boutique industry needs as they cross over from being a western boutique to just being the boutique in town, you need to have something that's a little bit more contemporary and edgy and you know, on those, on those different points and we've, we've had some missteps where we've launched stuff that we thought was going to do really well in the Western industry and they just weren't ready for it. And then we launched it two years later and it did just fine. So it's, yeah, kind of outside of the industry is kind of where I go for the most part.

I like it. Well, last question. With our time together today, I know you've got your hand in a lot of different pots and you know, just like you stated your, your forward thinking with everything you guys are working on, I'd love to know if you fast forwarded, you know, 20, 30 years down the road and you look back at what you've created really from all these different perspectives. What is the legacy that you hope you leave with these different companies? What are the things that you want people to remember most about what you created?

Wow. Well, I mean something that we don't probably exploit or like promote enough is that we do a lot of work overseas with different charities, at home too, with different charities. But my main focus, I've been working with a group in Nicaragua for gosh, almost 20 years, since I was 17 years old. So we've been, we've been working with the harvest initiative down there and one of the main reasons why I kind of became an entrepreneur, I wanted to do the things that I wanted to create was so that I had the time and the resources to do more in those fields. And that really came from my parents. My mom and dad have been working in central India for over 25, 30 years. They go back fairly often. They've been in a couple of years because of some, you know, medical issues. But they, they've been. That's been a big focus of their life and kind of what we grew up with. So for me, I mean, the businesses are great if the brands go on for eternity. That's awesome. All that stuff's fun. But I would really love to leave that legacy of encouraging people to go out and step outside their comfort zone and help those in need and do things that are different and to build their businesses to give them the freedom to do more for their community, whether it's locally or globally.

Mike, I appreciate it. Thanks for all of your great insight today, the work that you're doing not only in these companies, but around the world. And thanks for being a great friend and a great member of the Boutique Hub. It's much appreciated.

Thank you. I really appreciate everything you guys do. The whole team of the Boutique Hub has been so amazing to work with over the last couple years and it's just been great. We can't wait to see what's next.

Awesome. Thanks, Mike.

Thank you.

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode, you guys. I hope you took a ton of notes and some actionable takeaways not only on how you can protect your business legally in terms of trademark and copyright infringement, but also how you might approach working with influencers in a new light. Now, if you want to hear more from Mike, like I said, he's going to have a complete breakout session during the 2019 Western Summit, which is taking place January 10th in Denver, Colorado, just before the WESA market. So be sure to join us there. For more information, check out theboutiquehub.com Western Summit2019 routine or make sure you keep an eye on our training library inside of the Boutique Hub because we just may have some extra tips and tricks coming from Mike in the coming months uploaded just for our members. And in case you aren't already a member of the Boutique Hub, you guys, we are laying some major plans for 2019. Get ready for new guest experts each and every month, new training bundles for members every month, and many, many more live videos and opportunities for you to collaborate with others to grow your business. We can't wait to share some rebranding and redesign and new tricks up our sleeve to help you grow your business to the biggest and best. You've had it yet in 2019. Guys, thanks so much for listening. I appreciate you so much spending this time with us and I can't wait to see what happens over the holidays in your business. We'll talk to you soon guys. See you next week. Hey guys, thank you so much for listening to this episode. We hope that you loved it. Don't forget to hit subscribe and leave a rating and review down below for a chance to be one of our featured listeners each and every week. For more information on our spirit of community over competition and how to access complete show notes and bonus downloads from our guests, head on over to the boutiquehub.com and join the community.

We'll see you next time week.