Dealing with Workplace Stress and Burnout, with Dr. Ishan Shivanand — Leading Through Connection

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Ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton and time just stands still? Still. Welcome to the HCI family of podcasts. We're your source for personal, professional, and organizational growth and development. We share our own original research, explore industry trends, and interview executives and thought leaders from across the globe. Join us for practitioner-oriented content around all things leadership, HR, talent management, organizational development, and change management. Maximize your personal and organizational potential with the HCI family of podcasts. Dr. Eshan Shivanan, welcome to the conversation today.

Thank you so very much. Pleasure to be here.

It is a real pleasure to be with you. You're joining us from the Bay Area. I'm south of Salt Lake City in Utah. And today we're going to be talking about mental health, burnout, and really what we can do about fatigue, stress, and worry generally in life, but also within the workplace. As we get started, I wanted to share Dr. Shivanan's bio with everybody. Dr. Ishan Shivanan is bringing forth what is unknown about yoga. An acclaimed mental health researcher and professor, Dr. Shivanan is the founder of Yoga of Immortals, an evidence-based mental resilience meditation program for holistic well-being. The program has been clinically proven to reverse anxiety 75%, depression 72%, and insomnia 82%. And improve overall quality of life, 77%, among test participants within 4 to 8 weeks of regular practice. His YOI program has received commendations from U.S. Congress, the White House, National Drug Control Policy, and more. Dr. Eshon has expertise in working with people in high-stress environments and has been requested to teach his modalities at prestigious institutions, including MD Anderson Cancer Center, the Mayo Clinic, LinkedIn, Google Research, and many more. It's a real pleasure to be with you, Eshan. Anything else you would like to highlight by way of your background or personal context before we dive on in further?

In addition to everything that you said, another wonderful thing that puts me apart is I was raised in a monastery in India where I spent 20 years of my life. And the fantastic thing is a lot of people learn yoga and they see so many good benefits from it. They learn meditation and they see so many benefits from it. I actually got to live yoga. I lived meditation. So I have a unique grasp of this subject matter. So in addition to all the non-pharmaceutical work and all the research work that I'm doing, I think this heritage that I bring to the table also adds a lot to the conversation that we are going to have. Yes.

Yeah, well, that, that's a really, really interesting background, and I appreciate you sharing that context with us. I think that's super helpful. Um, okay, so why don't we dive on in? And if you can share with us just a little bit about your perspective on job burnout, you know, workplace— we often talk about workplace stress, worry, fatigue, you know, we talk about self-care, we talk about these things, I think, often How do you perceive and define workplace burnout perhaps differently than the average, you know, person when we're having these conversations?

So today, as we are having this conversation, all America is having anxiety and stress.

Yeah.

If you look at what's happening in the markets right now, we look at this fear that everyone is feeling. Savings are being wiped out. There is this scenario in which people don't know what's going to happen next. So if I call this anxiety and I say to somebody that why you are feeling anxiety, then the thing is that their anxiety is not unwarranted, right? Yeah, there is chaos that's happening outside, and of course there is going to be a physiological or psychological response to all that chaos. When I'm going to open my, my cell phone and I'm going to see all these notifications, then of course my body is going to go into overdrive mode and going to comprehend, going to think that how is it going to affect me and my family. So the question is not that stress is wrong or Anxiety is wrong. The question comes, how do I deal with the stress and anxiety? What is my relationship with that stress? Because if the stress comes and that starts to short-circuit my thinking, that starts to, um, cripple my judgment, and I start to take fear-based, uh, actions that are going to be detrimental to my growth future and well-being of my family, then, then that's harmful. And at the same time, if I can learn to deal with my stress and anxiety— because see, the stress-causing incidences, they are going to be there, they are going to be outside. So now I have to think, how can I protect my mind so that I can keep on functioning? So that when things get worse out there, how can I keep on functioning? So that is where it's very important to learn a few tools. It's like swimming. The water can get rougher and rougher. But if I know the techniques, if I know how to keep myself afloat, then no matter how rough the water is, I will not drown. And I have a very good chance to reach in to the other shore.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. So let's, let's talk about some of those tools again. Often— well, let me first acknowledge, like what you said, it's absolutely true. We all have stressors in life, some more than others. But we all deal with challenges and the world is a crazy place right now. So the reality is that we're all dealing with stuff, some, some more acute than others perhaps, but we're all dealing with challenges. We're all dealing with workplace stressors, home stressors, etc. And so it's about how we respond to it. So the question then becomes, how do we respond to it? How do we respond to it in a productive and healthy way? Rather than destructive ways. And we all know that that's often what happens, you know, you turn to, you know, unnecessary medications, or you self-medicate with alcohol, or, you know, or other harmful substances. You know, there's all sorts of ways that people try to cope with anxiety and stress and the hard things in life. So the question becomes, though, how do we do that more productively? How do we do that healthy in a more sustainable way, knowing that these things are going to come. That's just part of life.

Precisely. And that's where resilience has a key role to play, that how resilient are we when these things start on happening. Resilience can be our ability to withstand the chaos that is around us and being able to continue towards our goal. So one of the things that we have seen in our research that can help increase a person's resilience is meditation. Meditation is not something new, it's, it's very ancient. And the meditations that I do my research upon are the IKS systems, the Indian knowledge systems, and the Eastern modalities where we study all these ancient cultures on how they approach meditation and meditation as a tool of well-being. In Yoga of Immortals the methodology that I created, that I researched upon, I found out that if we focus on meditation, that helps us create awareness. And there are 4 forms of awareness that can really help us. Number 1, body awareness, breath awareness. Number 3, thought awareness, and emotional awareness. So we do various protocols that can bring us these 4 forms of awareness. And over time, What starts to happen is that our awareness towards our thoughts, it shifts from reactionary awareness that now, you know, if I get a sudden thought that's positive, I react with excitement. If I see a thought that's negative, I become extremely depressed. So rather than reactionary, I respond in a much better way to my thoughts. And this is extremely important, a non- judgmental awareness to life where we can respond, and we have the capability to do so. We are human beings, we are intelligent, we are brilliant. But the problem that happens is that when we get triggered, we don't respond in a manner in which we feel we should have responded. And then after that incident is gone, we feel guilty. We, we reminiscence that, oh my goodness, only if I would have done something in a different manner, and that creates more anxiety and more fear for the future that, oh my goodness, if that incident comes again, what if I fumble again? And imagine if all that was eliminated from our life, how peaceful, how joyful we would be. So what I prescribe is always we should have a meditation practice, a contemplation practice every single day for 10-15 minutes. Where we focus on these 4 forms of awareness and we bring them in our life, no matter if today we are feeling stressed or not. Think of it like training yourself, like an emergency drill we used to have in school, like the fire drills. So we are having that drill not because there's a fire, but just in case one day if there'll be fire, we'll be so much better prepared. Today I see people look at stress management tools or or things like meditation or yoga, and they think of it only at the times when they are severely stressed. It's like trying to learn how to fly a plane when the plane is crashing. So now the plane is crashing, it'll be tough. And at that time, when they try to learn how to meditate, they can't meditate, and they are saying, oh my goodness, meditation doesn't work for me. It will work for you. It's just you chose a very interesting time to learn it. So people ask me, when should I have that practice? I say today, right now is a very good time. And if you're feeling that you are in that state of chaos, then let's begin today. We have to begin somewhere. And hopefully over time, the compounding effect will be felt and we will get much better at it and much more resilient to deal with the situations when they come. Yes.

Yeah.

Are there—

do you think there are certain types of jobs or people perhaps personality types, or I don't know, are there certain types of people who are most vulnerable to job burnout? What are some of those signs and symptoms that maybe we should be attuned to the most? Because, because like you said, I think a lot of people are just pretty reactionary. So they're— while the idea in the ideal world, we're all just proactively doing this on a regular basis, you know, we're just, we're just making contemplative and meditative practices part of our daily routines, part of who we are. But like for anyone who's listening or watching and they're just, you know, thinking I'm fine, I'm okay. But maybe that maybe they're in a high-risk type of occupation. Maybe they're in a high, maybe they have a high-risk personality type. Maybe, maybe they have symptoms that are already manifesting and they're just not really aware of it or paying attention to it. What are some of those things that we should be paying attention to?

See, this is a very interesting question that you have asked and Jobs like ER physician, healthcare workers, they are high-stress jobs. And we have statistical data to prove that very, very high percentage of people who will go into these sectors, they will experience burnout. Engineers today— and all of this is what you said, high-risk work environment. But the trouble is, long time ago when there were coal miners, they then the harmful impacts of mining coal or physiological impacts, they were tangible. Yeah, it was very easy to make various laws that can benefit or cancel out the harm mitigation to those miners because we could see the harmful impacts. Today, such high-risk jobs The harm is psychological, it's intangible. So even if we know that yes, there is going to be burnout, then people have assumed that, oh, this is how it's going to be. Stress is now a way of life. So definitely some jobs are high risk when it comes to stress. And if you ask me logically, then, you know, when people are working in construction, they are giving given hard hats and steel-toe boots as a precautionary measure. But when we talk about healthcare workers, we know they are prone to burnout, we know there is going to be workplace hazard, but we have still not put into place any cognitive or psychological workplace measure. Maybe, you know, some, some form of resilience training during the job hours itself, or some form of decompressing or meditation that they should have access to so that they can manage those crises that are happening inside. And then maybe that is in the time to come, we will see maybe more research is done and some policies can be implemented so that we will have some form of psychological hard hats that people are going to wear in, in those job professions. But yes, people who are much more prone to anxiety, they suffer from burnout. Personality types that are a bit more introvert and they are pushed into settings where they have to push themselves to be much more extrovert, we see that there will be crisis that come into play. But again, it all comes down to the environment in which we are right now. It is very difficult to predict. If there is prediction, there can be some form of stability. And then there can be some form of training that, yes, we can prepare ourselves because this is what is going to happen. But we ourselves right now are going through such a great experiment in the workplace because of the advent of AI, because of all the economic policy changes, that now I feel a lot of people are going to experience high levels of stress. And hence it's extremely important for them to put in some checks and balances, some measures to take care of their mental health in the time to come. If policy can't give us the hard hats, if workplace is not yet evolved to understand what precautions can be taken for burnout, then we have to give ourselves that benefit because we deserve, we deserve to be happy. And then it's, it's our life, it's our body, it's It's our mind. Somebody has to care.

Yeah, I, I, I think a lot of times we, we just kind of assume it's just part of the deal. Like we go to work and, you know, in, in past generations, maybe part of the job was you sacrifice your body and you wear yourself down. Um, and nowadays, you know, it's a different type of work. We, we think, yeah, you just, you just sacrifice your mental health and you wear yourself down. It, but it doesn't need to be that way. Like we, we can take protections for both our physical health, our mental health, our emotional, spiritual well-being, like all those things, like they should be part of what it means, you know, for holistic wellness for individuals. And there's plenty of research out there to show that when employers pay attention to holistic wellness, that it's a good investment, like anything that they put into that investment of, you know, trying to make sure that their people are taken care of, it'll pay tremendous dividends. There are people you know, there will be lower levels of absenteeism and turnover and higher levels of productivity and better customer service and innovation and all like all these things, just much better outcomes. Like it's just so much better for organizations. So even, I mean, the human side of it suggests we should care about this, right? But even if you set that aside and you're just a cold hard capitalist and you just want to make money, it still matters. Like you still should pay attention because clearly it's worth the investment. Clearly it's going to help you be a more successful business. And so for me as an individual, I need to remember that I owe it to myself, like I owe it to myself, my family, my loved ones to make sure I'm taking care of myself because it matters not just for today, but 5 years from now, 10 years from now. But as a leader, as you know, of organizations, I need to also remember that how I model Wellness for my team matters, how I take care of my team matters, because ultimately that's going to help the organization be successful.

Absolutely. And there is a hidden economic cost also to all this.

Absolutely.

Doing our research, things like anxiety, insomnia, Americans spend billions of dollars on these things. And even burnout, burnout leads to absenteeism. There's a huge economic cost, a hidden economic cost, indirect, economic cost. Even things like when we are talking about alcohol use disorder or substance use disorder, when people are trying to self-medicate, yeah, there is a huge cost involved that, that we as a country are, are paying. So if we say that, oh, stress is just part of the deal, but then what is the dollar cost to that stress? And are we going to be able to afford it in the long term? And, and that is a question that we have to ask ourselves. And if, if we cannot afford it, then prevention is better than cure. Then we have to live in a certain way. We have to look at our lifestyle. We have to look at our own mind and what are the preventable changes that we can bring that can help us lead a life that in the long term would be much more beneficial to us. And that is where all these integrative tools of wellness come into play that can help us reverse that burnout that we are feeling today.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has just been a fantastic conversation. I know the time, I'm going to need to let you go here in just a minute. But before we wrap things up for today, I wanted to give you a chance to share with the audience how they can connect with you, find out more about your work, and then give us a final word for today.

Yes, so I have shared a lot of my insights and a lot of my life story, um, and what are the things that a person can bring into his own lives, you know, the practical aspect of reversing burnout, but in a much more mystical way. Because as I said, I was raised in a monastery, so how can we bring all that knowledge today? Because what we practice in the monastery took us— my ancestors, it took them 1,000 years to master it, but we have this lifetime. So to help you learn and apply all these tools in your life so that you can be as resilient as a monk while you work as a CEO, I wrote a book called The Practice of Immortality. And this book, The Practice of Immortality, is going to launch on the 25th of May. It is available for pre-order on Amazon, and it's an excellent read. I hope you can read it, and I hope you will enjoy it, and you learn a lot from. And if you would like to learn more about me, uh, I am available on LinkedIn under the name of Ishan Shivanan. So I would love to hear from you.

Yes, wonderful, wonderful. Thank you so much, Ishan. It's been a real pleasure. I encourage the audience to reach out, to get connected, find out more about what Ishan can do for you. Check out the book, um, that's, uh, coming out soon. Check out all the amazing resources, um, the, the wonderful program and practice practices. And as always, I hope everyone can stay healthy and safe and you can find meaning and purpose at work each and every day. And I hope you all have a great week. Thanks for joining us for this episode of the podcast. We hope you stay healthy and safe and please join us again soon.