Revelation 7:9-13 The Great Multitude / Greg L Bahnsen / Revelation Verse By Verse {Part 27 of 63}

Begin with a word of prayer. Father, we're grateful to you this day for so many things, many things that we couldn't even number if we were to begin. But we're especially grateful that at this time you bid us to study your word. That you have not left us in the dark. That you've left us in our ignorance or in our hardness of heart. That you've given us new hearts and new eyes. You've given us the light to see the truth that is revealed in the Scriptures. We thank you for all that they teach and for that manifold truth which is to be found therein. We pray, Father, that you would make us receptive of it, that you'd make us responsive to it and obedient. We pray that you would encourage our hearts this day, that you'd give us a sense of that greatness position that we have because of the salvation presented in your son, Jesus Christ. For it's in his name that we pray. Amen. We're in Revelation chapter 7 this morning, and I trust that we'll be able to finish it up today. As you know, In Revelation chapter 6, we have the opening of the first six seals of the seven sealed scroll giving us a preview of the contents of that scroll. But chapter seven is, by some commentators considered an interlude between the sixth seal and the breaking of the seventh at the beginning of chapter eight. I prefer to look at it as a continuation of the sixth seal. But one way or another, all of chapter seven transpires before we get to the seventh seal being opened at chapter eight and then the contents of the scroll. We've been looking at chapter seven for a few weeks and have spent some time considering the identity of the 144,000 sealed saints out of the 12 tribes of Israel there in verses four through eight. And then we spent some time looking at the great multitude which no man could number, at verse nine. And I arrived at the conclusion that these are really. These are two descriptions for the same body of people. That here you have the Church of Jesus Christ described in two different ways. The Church of Jesus Christ as it confronts tribulation in the world and considered the new Israel of God, and then the Church of Jesus Christ as the universal throng of saved and redeemed people before the throne of God. Or as one commentator has put it, you have, in one sense the Church Militant and the Church Triumphant. I don't know that I want to distinguish as radically as some do between those two, but the fact is we have the Church under two different descriptions. What I'D like to begin our discussion with this morning is to point out some of the dangers of having a preconceived notion of what the Book of Revelation must be teaching. We have in the commentary that has been published by George Eldon Ladd an interesting discussion of the 144,000 saints and the great multitude. Now, previously I read to you the description of Hal Lindsey, who is a dispensationalist, and how he considers the 144,000 and the great multitude. The 144,000 are those Jews that will be converted during the tribulation period. They will then become evangelists for God, and the outcome of their evangelistic work will be this great gentile multitude. Now, there are a number of reasons why that's not a credible interpretation of this passage in the context, the language that's used, especially in the context of the Book of Revelation and the whole of the New Testament. Now, Dr. Ladd is not a dispensationalist. Dr. Ladd is a premillennialist. And when you read his description of the 144,000 in the Great multitude, you get an excellent description of the church under two descriptions. That is, he would agree entirely with what we have said thus far about these two descriptions. However, he is a premillennialist. And you see, this is a crucial chapter for premillennialism, not just for dispensationalism, but for those who hold that there must be a great tribulation period just prior to the well, Jesus Christ raptures his saints out of the world, there's a tribulation period. Then after that tribulation, the battle of Armageddon and the establishment of an earthly millennium. Now, Dr. Ladd doesn't believe in the fact that the saints will be raptured prior to the tribulation. He is a post tribulationist, post tribulational premillennialist. And so you have to get all this down. You know, he believes Christ will return before the millennium, but he believes that Christ will return after the tribulation. So he's staying with his premillennialism but giving up that dispensational distinctive. Now, what is of interest is the way he describes these two multitudes after concluding that they must be the same group under two descriptions. And I'm going to pick up in the middle of a paragraph, Dr. Ladd says there is no positive indication in the passage that they are martyrs. You think, well, okay, that should end that, right? There's no indication in the passage that they are martyrs, period. You put that aside and you go on to what the passage means. But Dr. Ladd, who needs to guard his premillennialism, as he knows textually that he can't do what the premillennialists traditionally have done with this text. So he goes on, having indicated that there's no indication of martyrdom, to say however. That's a big however. They are seen standing before the throne, that is, they have suffered death and now stand in the presence of God before the Lamb. If they have died in great tribulation, the presumption is that they have been martyred. For the great tribulation will be a time of intense martyrdom. And then he goes on, I'm going to read it for you. But he goes on to give a description of other passages in the New Testament and Old Testament that he thinks teaching a period of great tribulation on earth. Now you must begin to see the difficulty of this interpretive maneuver. One he says, there's no indication of martyrdom here. However, the presumption is. Well, where do you get that presumption? Well, when you have a theory, when you have an outlook or a perspective on eschatology, that is a view of the last things already, then the presumption is that they are martyrs. But if you don't share that initial perspective or that assumption, then there's no presumption at all. And so he's, I think, in fact bringing to bear his own conclusions on the data and then making and then the data will reflect back to him what he wants the data to say. Now let's go on. He says, this idea of a great tribulation appears several times in the New Testament and goes back to Daniel 12:1, which says, and there shall be a time of trouble. The Greek word there is tribulation. There shall be a time of tribulation such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. Our Lord Re echoed these words of Daniel in Matthew 24, saying, for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. Paul described the evil personage who will oppose the people of God, as the man of lawlessness, the Son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so called God or object of worship. Second Thessalonians 2 John devotes an entire chapter to this Antichrist, calling him the beast, who, supported by the false prophet, will demand universal worship. The beast was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. Revelation 13. He was granted authority over all peoples on the earth. The false prophet demands that all men worship the beast. Those who do not conform are put to death. Revelation 13, verse 15. The theology behind the Great Tribulation is the age long conflict between God and Satan. I'll read that sentence again because I'm going to come back to it. The theology behind the Great Tribulation is the age long conflict between God and Satan. One of the main motifs of our Lord's ministry was his conflict with Satan and demonic powers. By his incarnation and earthly mission, our Lord has rendered a decisive defeat to the devil that men may be delivered from the darkness and brought into the kingdom of Christ. Colossians 1 while delivered from the spiritual power of Satan, the Church is not spared from tribulation and persecution which expresses the fierce hatred of Satan for the people of God. In fact, true tribulation and persecution are the normal expectation of the Church in the world. He gives passages, the Great Tribulation will be but a concentration of the same Satanic hostility which the Church has experienced throughout her entire existence. When Satan, in one final convulsive effort, tries to turn the hearts of God's people away from their Lord, The presumption is they are martyrs. And the presumption is that if we read of Great Tribulation, it must be the intensification of the age long conflict between Satan and the people of God. Well, as we look at this passage this morning, I want to demonstrate the presumption is in fact false. It's a false assumption. And that when we read of the Great Tribulation, we're not reading of a specific intensification of tribulation. We're reading of the well known Great Tribulation of God's people in the world. And that in fact we have no reason to see this as a reference to some future period of time, an intensification of persecution for God's people, so that we can then have martyrs who appear before the throne of God. Let's read Revelation 7, beginning at verse 9 to the end. After these things I saw and behold a great multitude which no man could number out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes and palms in their hands. And they cry with a great voice, saying, salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne. And unto the Lamb. And all the angels were standing round about the throne and about the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell before the throne on their face, faces, and worshiped God saying, amen. Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power, and might be unto our God forever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, these that are arrayed in the white robes, who are they? And whence came they? And I say unto him, my Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, these are they that come out of the great tribulation. And they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and they serve him day and night in his temple. And he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more, neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat. For the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall be their shepherd. And he shall guide them unto fountains of. Of waters of life. And God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes. Verse 9 shows us the church of Jesus Christ, the innumerable saints of God. It's. It's. It's. As they camped their way across the wilderness to the promised land. And these booths at the feast of tabernacles were constructed of branches and palms, the feasts of tabernacles especially, a time of joy, that singing of hymns before the Lord. So it may be that John here is thinking of the church of Jesus Christ enjoying that kind of fatherly protection from God. You have the palm branches, the symbol of victory that God is carrying people through all their tribulations and the singing of praise to him. And what they sing with a great voice in verse 10 is salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb. Now, I think it's interesting here to see that their singing is not especially a song of gratitude for their own personal salvation, although I don't by any means psychologically think that that can be separated from it. But you notice there's no reference to their own personal deliverance. They are praising God for the great deliverance that he brings for his sovereign act in Christ. Salvation unto our God who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb. There is something to be said for the objective glory, you see, of God's redemptive work, that it isn't simply subjective. It isn't just because we enjoy the benefits of redemption, but there's something marvelous about the work of God in itself. And the saints seem to be praising that aspect of it, this objective glory of God's salvation, the sovereign act of God through the Lamb of God and takes away the sin of the world. Verse 11 says that all the angels who are on the outer perimeter now of this heavenly scene, all the angels then prostrated themselves and worshiped God at the cry of the redeemed. And notice what the angels say when they prostrate themselves. Amen. Blessing, glory, wisdom, thanksgiving, honor and power, and might be unto our God forever and ever. Now these angels are not redeemed people, but they are saying Amen. You see, they're giving their word of confirmation and assent to what the saints of God have said. Again, that stresses the fact that it's not subjective redemption so much that is leading to this phrase, but God's mighty work of salvation in and of itself is worthy of that kind of praise, even from the angels who can't experience salvation. See, the angels who fell cannot be redeemed, and those who didn't fall don't need to be redeemed. And yet they praise the Lord in the same way that the redeemed do for his work of salvation. First they assent, saying Amen. It stands firm, it's confirmed, it's true, it's solid. Their joy is generated by the saving act of God, even though they aren't the subjects of God's salvation. And then they go on to ascribe seven things preeminently to God. The Greek is fascinating here because you have the definite article before each one in your translation. You'll probably have blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and so forth. Well, the difficulty with that is. Well, it's not so much a difficulty, but the reason it takes away from the beauty of this ascription is that, well, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor, and all these things can truly be predicated of God, can be said of God, but that can be said of others as well. What the angels are saying is the blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the might be unto our God. Preeminently, the power is God's, preeminently, the honor is God's. Preeminently these attributes belong to God. And this one who is praised as having the blessing and the glory and the wisdom and so forth, as one who lives forever and ever, he is the eternal God. It's in the realm of eternal verities that the angels worship God. And at the end Then they reaffirm the reliability of all that they've said. They've already begun by agreeing with the saints, saying amen. And then after they give their song of praise, they say amen again. There's a beautiful song in heaven that John is hearing. And then one of the elders says unto him, now these who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they and where do they come from? Whence are they? The elder, you see, wants John in the midst of all this vision, wants John sitting to be riveted, especially on that white robed throng. He says, who are they? Whence are they? And that's the message that we've got to pay attention to if we're going to understand this chapter as well. And John replies, well, you're the one who knows. I'm not in a position to be interpreting this to you, but I need you to interpret it to me. It's interesting that John addresses him with the word Lord, which would not generally be appropriate if it's just another one of the redeemed. Remember earlier we talked about the 24 elders and mentioned that interpretation of the 24 elders which says they represent the church of God in the old and new dispensation, if you will, the 12 tribes as well as the 12 apostles. And I argued that I didn't think that was an appropriate interpretation, that in fact the 24 elders are high ranking of angels and that would make John's address appropriate. Lord, thou knowest. However, he probably wouldn't say that to somebody who was like him, one of the redeemed. And then the elder gives his explanation in verse 14. He said to me, these are they that come out of the great Tribulation. And they washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. In the Greek we read, these are those who are coming out of the Great Tribulation. It's a present tense, a continuous type of action. Those who are always habitually in the present tense, you see, coming out of great tribulation. And that great tribulation is the tribulation in which they are particularly caught. I mean the particular persecution and tribulation of the saints of that time. Because it's present tense. Obviously it's not the Great Tribulation in the future, but that particular tribulation in which they are caught is nothing more than a manifestation of the constant tribulation of life, the constant tribulation which all the saints of God know throughout their life. Now, the reason the Great Tribulation is not the specific Tribulation in the future, but rather is the great tribulation. Tribulation in the sense of the well known tribulation. Those are two different ways to take the Greek article. By the way, we have a lot of Greek today. I'm sorry about that. But you see, the definite article can be used to specify. And so you might speak of the blessing and the honor preeminently belonging to God, or the article. The can also be used for the well known. And so we have the Savior of the world. It's not as though you have many saviors, you see, and then the particular one that we want to talk about, Jesus Christ, but rather the Savior of the world means the well known Savior of the world, the one and only. And so what I want to argue is that the great Tribulation here is that great tribulation which is so well known to the people, people of God in both dispensations and throughout history. And the reason it's so well known is because it is constantly taught over and over and over again reiterated in the Scriptures. Let's just look at a few passages here. John 16:33. Jesus says axiomatically, as a matter of principle, in the world ye have tribulation. There's the great tribulation, the well known tribulation. In the world you have tribulation. Of course, he goes on to say that we are to be of good cheer because he has overcome the world. But in this world it is the Christian's lot to have tribulation. Look at John 15:18 20. If the world hated you, ye know that it hath hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love its own. But because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. Remember the word that I said unto you. A servant is not greater than his Lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will keep yours also. The world hates and persecutes Christ's disciples. And that's necessary because you see, the servant is not above his Lord, the disciple is not above his teacher. Whatever is happening to Christ should be expected to happen to Christ's followers as well. Acts 14:22. Here we read of a preaching of Paul confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, to be steadfast in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God. Here's the axiom of Jesus in the world. You have tribulation. Here's the reason for that. If Jesus suffered persecution, his followers must suffer as well. And now Paul teaches us that through these many tribulations we enter into the kingdom of God. It's impossible, you see, that we can avoid that sort of thing. First Thessalonians 3. 3. I'll begin reading at verse two. And sent Timothy, our brother and God's minister in the Gospel of Christ, to establish you and to comfort you concerning your faith, that no man be moved by these afflictions for yourselves Know that hereunto. Were we appointed. We were appointed. We were, you see, ordained. We were destined to. To these afflictions. Paul says, 2nd Thessalonians 1:4, 5. So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith, in all your persecutions and in all the afflictions which ye endure, which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God to the end that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God. God, for which ye also suffer. The reason we suffer is for the kingdom of God. Paul said, through many tribulations we enter into the kingdom of God. In first Thessalonians we read that that's what the Christian is appointed to, afflictions. And so we read here, these afflictions are for the sake of the kingdom of God, and are a manifest token of God's righteous judgment. Second Timothy 3, verse 12. Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. Again, this is a general principal type of statement. It's axiomatic. Those who live godly in Christ Jesus will not be above their Lord. See, Christ lived godly in this world, and for it he was martyred. And you who live godly in his stead, those of you who are entering into the kingdom of God through many tribulations, you shall suffer persecution as well. Philippians 1:29. Finally, Paul says, because to you it hath been granted in behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf. It's been appointed to you to do this. You know, we sing the song Trust and Obey, right? And it's a good song. I think the theology of it is proper. But there aren't, to my knowledge, maybe some of you who know hymns better. There aren't many hymns in the Christian Church that reflect the. The way that the New Testament so pervasively puts together believing and suffering. You see, trust and suffer would be another way to sing. Be appropriate, for it is appointed unto you not only to believe on him, but also to suffer in his behalf. We think of believing and then obeying the Lord, or believing and enjoying his blessing. But we don't often put together what the New Testament so often puts together. Believing and suffering. It's your appointed lot. If you shall live godly in Christ Jesus, tribulation will be yours. And so in Revelation 7, when we read of the great Tribulation, we're not reading of the intense tribulation, the great specific tribulation of some future day, we're reading of the extensive tribulation, that enduring tribulation which is the lot of God's people throughout time. Now, what was of interest to me in Dr. Ladd's commentary is that he recognizes that. He recognizes first of all that you can't have the traditional dispensational distinction between the hundred and forty four thousand and the great multitude. But he also knows that he needs to make these people martyrs if he's going to salvage his pre millennial interpretation. And so he says the presumption is this. And then to back up the presumption, he reads, the Great Tribulation is what that intense period of tribulation in the future. But he in his own commentary says the great Tribulation, the well known tribulation, is the conflict between Satan and the people of God through all the ages. And he goes on to give passages, many of which, which we've already looked at, that support the idea that that's the tribulation of God's people. And then what he says is what we must have here then is an intensification of that well known tribulation. Where does he get the idea that this is a specific intensification of that tribulation and in the future? Well, he gets that from his preconceived notions about what the Book of Revelation will be teaching us. Maybe I can put it this way. He can't find any specific evidence of martyrdom in the chapter, neither can I. But he says these are martyrs. The presumption is they're martyrs. Now he has, you see, he's created a debt that has to be paid off now, an interpretive debt. He's got to make good on that claim. He says it's not in the passage itself. It's the presumption we bring to the passage. And so to pay off the debt, he now interprets the Great Tribulation as that period of time when God's people will be martyred. But can he pay off the debt by making reference to the great Tribulation, if he himself recognizes that the Great Tribulation is the well known tribulation we all know, and that what now must be seen here is a specific intensification of the Great Tribulation. Well, only if he creates another debt, you see, now he is double debted to the passage to make good on that interpretation. And what I'm pointing out here is just that there's a real danger in assuming that you know what the Book of Revelation will teach. Those of you who have had any contact with premillennial interpretation or with prophecy conferences or the Scofield Reference Bible, or any number of avenues by which eschatology is discussed in a popular vein these days, would likely have read the great tribulation as Dr. Ladd has done. So because we have been conditioned, especially 20th century fundamentalists have been conditioned, to read the Great Tribulation according to the charts. But it just won't, you know, sustain itself when it comes to a contextual interpretation of the passage of itself. The continuous present tense is being used. These are those who are continuously coming out of the Great Tribulation. And the blessings that are given to those who come out of the Great Tribulation are not blessings restricted to one body of people in the Church of Jesus Christ or just a certain group of people in the future or in the past. They are the universal blessings of all the saints of God whose robes are made white and the blood of the Lamb, and who stand before the throne and before the Lamb, praising him with victorious palm branches in their hands. So a short segment of history is not being referred to here, but it's all the people of God. Remember 144,000, the Universal Church of Jesus Christ from all tribes, tongues and nations throughout history who have come out of that Great Tribulation which we know in this world are victorious because of the salvation that is theirs. Well, I've referred to a popular interpretation of the Great Tribulation as being that which is in the future specific period of time that the premillennialist and the dispensationalists believe are to come upon the world. But there's another specification of the Great Tribulation which I think is illegitimate. And it comes from a person I'm a lot more sympathetic to in terms of his Overall interpretation. That's Dr. Adams. J. Adams, when he interprets the Book of Revelation, comes to this passage and says the Great Tribulation in John's perspective must be the calamity that is to BEFALL Jerusalem in A.D. 70. And this much must be said for Dr. Adams interpretation. The fall of Jerusalem is to be found in the local context. The end of chapter six. We've already read of the fall of Jerusalem. Secondly, we read in the New Testament In Matthew 24, the Olivet discourse of that great tribulation which will be unlike any other tribulation that people of God have ever known or ever will know. And that as has been explained to you in this class numerous times, and Jim Jordan took some time in one period of my absence to give a lengthy exposition of that that has been been shown to refer to the fall of Jerusalem. And so there is at least some reason for Dr. Adams to bring that presumption to the passage. Well, why don't I agree with that? I mean I. We're going to go on to read of the fall of Jerusalem in the remaining chapters up to chapter 11 here. The reason I don't favor it, however, despite the fact that we find it in chapter six and the following chapters, is that Dr. Adams says the great, great multitude must be distinguished from the hundred and forty four thousand to make good on that interpretation. I don't want to go too fast here. We said against premillennialism, against dispensationalism, you cannot distinguish between the 144,000 and the innumerable gentile multitude. These are really separate descriptions of the same body, the Church of Jesus Christ, universal. And we can't see the great tribulation as a future intense period of tribulation because it's the well known tribulation which all the saints of God know, know about and know experientially. But now Dr. Adams says it is a specific tribulation, a past tribulation, the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. But to say that he must go back and deny one of the premises in the argument thus far and that's that the two descriptions here are of the same body. He says the 144,000 are Jewish Christians. Christians, to be sure. He doesn't believe that there's anything literal about the tribes of Israel, as I think any sensible commentator will have to say that, because there's not an empirical description of the 12 tribes. You don't have the 12 tribes described this way anywhere in the old testament. So Dr. Adams says that is the church, but it's the Jewish church. And then what we see in verse nine, the great multitude is the Gentile Church, but who was saved in the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, not the Gentile Church. The Gentile Church wasn't in Jerusalem, it was the 144,000. And so to protect his interpretation, he's got to go go back on something which is common to all antikilleist interpreters of this passage. He has to say, well, in fact, there is a distinction between these two different groups. And what Dr. Adams says is that the great multitude come out of tribulation, but not out of the Jewish tribulation. I don't want to go too fast here, but no, this is interesting, the support for the idea that the great tribulation can refer to the fall of Jerusalem as what? Well, in context, we're going to read about the fall of Jerusalem both in chapter six and chapters eight and following. And the great tribulation of the Olivet discourse is the fall of Jerusalem, but specifically those who come out of the great tribulation. According to Revelation 7, the ones who come out of the great tribulation are not the 144,000, it's the great multitude. I'm waiting to see the look on somebody's face. They see the problem there. Okay, let me go over this again. Dr. Adams says the 144,000 refer to Jewish Christians who are saved in the fall of Jerusalem. And that's the great tribulation. And there's a difference between the 144,000 and the great multitude. But the problem is, in the Book of Revelation, the ones who come out of the great tribulation are the great multitude, not the 144,000. Dr. Adams is not dull to that point. He's very acute. He knows that that's the problem with the interpretation. So he says, this is interesting. He says the great multitude come out of the portending Roman persecution. They die under the emperors and not at Jerusalem. So the 144,000 are saved through the Jerusalem holocaust. True. But the great multitude are saved out of the portending Roman persecution. But where does the Roman persecution come from? It's not in context. The local context. If it's tribulation of a specific sort at all is the fall of Jerusalem. And so what he says is it is necessary to take the description of the great multitude as a preview of what's going to come in the second half of the Book of Revelation. Why must we have a preview of the second half of the Book of Revelation right here? Seems rather out of place, doesn't it? And a bit contrived. Well, he says we need a preview to satisfy the Gentile question. The Gentile question. See, Gentiles are reading the Book of Revelation. They see how God is going to protect and take care of the Jews through the fall of Jerusalem and 80, 70, the Jewish Christians, that is the Jewish saints. The Gentile question is whether the Jewish saints get special treatment or whether all of God's people enjoy the same blessing. And so Adam says, the Gentiles reading this, get an answer immediately. God says no. By way of preview, even the Gentile Christians are going to be saved out of the Great Tribulation this time. The Great Tribulation, referring to the Roman persecution of the people of God. Well, it's a fascinating interpretation, but I do think it's a bit contrived. It's very difficult to get a preview out of this. It's very difficult to say the two descriptions don't apply to the same body of people, the universal Church of Jesus Christ. And it's almost incredible to read the Great Tribulation as a specific tribulation, but not of the Fall of Jerusalem. You see, the initial strength of the interpretation comes on that presumption of the fall of Jerusalem being in the context. But when all is said and done, Dr. Adams doesn't take the Great Tribulation to be the fall of Jerusalem, but to be the Roman persecution of the Church. Well, now, before I go on, perhaps I better give you a chance to ask some questions. We've been looking at three interpretations this morning. One implicitly, that is the teachers, but Dr. Ladd's interpretation, premillennialism, and Dr. Adams interpretation, which is not unique to, but he happens to be an amillennialist. Now, do you have any questions as to either the meaning of these approaches or the difficulties with them? Yes, Greg. Yeah, and that's the problem with that interpretation, that it gets its strength from the presumption that the Great Tribulation is in context, the Fall of Jerusalem. But when all is said and done, he interprets that as the Gentile multitude, not the 144,000. The Gentile multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, meaning the Roman persecution. You see, the problem here is he would. He would. I think there would still be difficulties with it, and I would not accept it. But everything would be going along fine if he said the hundred and forty four thousand come out of the Great Tribulation, that is the Fall of Jerusalem. The difficulty is that isn't what's in the text. The text says the Great multitude come out of the Great Tribulation. It says nothing about the 144,000. And so then Adams must expand what he means by the Great Tribulation. To include the Roman persecution of the Church. And it's at that point that you can see why this is a contrived interpretation that's just pressing the text beyond its limit, I think. Yes. Well, Hendrickson, who I take to be a standard amillennial interpreter of the Book of Revelation, says that what you have here is the church under two descriptions. The Church Militant, 144,000 undergoing tribulations, the Church triumphant having come out of tribulation now in. In the intermediate state, praising God. The intermediate state, meaning before the final consummation, our presence before God without our bodies. There's a difficulty with that, isn't there? It's not a. It's not a telling difficulty, but it's one. You see, they're described in their bodies with white robes and palms in their hands and all the rest. Now, that could be, you know, metaphorical or anthropomorphic in a strange way, men being spoken of as though they had bodies. But anyway, that's another amillennial interpretation that would differ with. Dr. Adams doesn't see the fall of Jerusalem or the Roman persecution here. It just sees the people of God through all the ages undergoing tribulation and then standing before God triumphant. Other questions. In verse nine, the phrase every nation and the tribes and people, Isn't that phrase used for Gentiles in the New Testament, as opposed to the phrase in verse four for every tribe? Well, now look at what you've just said in verse five. Well, verse four. Out of every tribe. Yeah. And then in verse nine, you read out of every nation and of all tribes. And so I agree. Oh, yes, yes. However, Israel is also considered a nation, and so it's not impossible that they should be referred to under the general designation all nations. Dr. Adams makes much of that, and I think, you know, that's. That's worth noting. He says you have one nation, Israel, with all its tribes, and then you have every nation and all the tribes. But I think that the inter. The commentators who say that that is inclusive then of Israel is perhaps more satisfying because Israel is, you see, every tribe of Israel is referred to, and then all the tribes of mankind are referred to in verse nine. And I think that would be inclusive of the tribes mentioned just a few verses before. Well, anybody who. Is this the same 144,000 John speaking to that? Yes and no, it's the same. You see, remember, on my interpretation of the 144,000, that's the universal church of Jesus Christ. And so any body of believers in any circumstance at any point in history qualifies as the 144,000 because they are part of the universal church of Jesus Christ. And so see, I don't think in Revelation 7 you have specific people being referred to. That is, I don't think you have. Let's just say the congregation here this morning, you see, and you take all these names and write them down and say, now that's the 144,000 being referred to in chapter seven. Now, in chapter 14, is it that same individual group of names? Well, I don't think that's the reference in either case. In both cases it's a reference to the church of Jesus Christ, whoever belongs to the church of Jesus Christ. Now in chapter 14, if you have a specific historic reference, you see the battle of the saints with the beast. And I think that is a specific reference of the battle of the early Christians with the Roman Empire. That is not inappropriate to call them the 144,000 because they are members of the church. And that's all we have in chapter seven, I think, is two descriptions of the church. Anybody who's a member, a true member of the church of Jesus Christ. Anybody who wears a robe washed in the blood of the Lamb, to put it very simply. Anybody who's been saved. Yeah, Nancy, The same group under two different descriptions. That's specifically mentioned here in, in chapter seven. No, no, no, no. I've confused you a little bit. Dr. Adams has difficulty because he distinguishes between the 144,000 and the great multitude. He says these are different groups of people. And then we note that it's textually speaking, the multitude that comes out of the great tribulation. Now on my interpretation that means 144,000 come out of the great tribulation because it's the same group. It's just one description is being used that rather than the other. There's no need to repeat every piece of symbolism, you know, when you go down. So John speaks of the multitude coming out of the great tribulation. For me that means the church of Jesus Christ comes out of the age long tribulation of God's people in this world. For Dr. Adams, that means there must be a specific tribulation and a specific group of people. And so for him it's a difficulty, but on my interpretation it would not be. I mean, there may be other problems with minded. That's not one of them. I can't help but wonder what John was mentioned. Two different groups. I'm not questioning Scripture. Don't misunderstand but it seems strange. You can mention 144,000 out of 12 tribes and then turn around and mention all another group. I mean, why the distinction? Well, because there's probably no answer to that. Oh, no, I had to. A very good answer to it. In fact, it comes to the very heart of how you interpret the Book of Revelation. Why is it that there are two different symbols used for any one common entity? Why is it that Jesus Christ is seen as a conquering warrior, a lion and a lamb? Well, now, which is he? I mean, is he a warrior or is he a lion or is he a lamb? I mean, the literalistic bent. And of course, even the literalists among us are not going to be this crass about it. But a literalistic approach of the Book of Revelation would say, now which is it? Don't confuse us by having all these different descriptions. But that's just the beauty of the Book of Revelation, because he is all three of those. He is the Lamb of God, but he's the lion of the tribe of Judah. And he's a conquering warrior. He's not only present on earth, walking among the seven churches of Asia Minor, he's also enthroned in heaven. Well, I mean, which is it? Is he on earth or is he in heaven? Well, it's both. You see, what we're getting here is different facets, different faces, if you will, of the same truth. But you see, you can't capture the truth. You can't get all of that in just one description. And so the church of Jesus Christ is also a beautiful entity in that way. And in one sense, it's the new Jerusalem, you see. In another sense, it's the true Israel of God. In another way, it's those who follow Christ upon white horses, you see, they follow the conquering warrior of God. So the church is given a number of. It's also a lampstand. Well, what is the church? Is it a multitude of people? Is it a specific multitude or a general multitude? Is it a lampstand? Or is it those who follow on one horses? Well, it's all of those things. And the reason John gives us two descriptions is because there's two aspects of the truth that he wants us to lay. Hold on. He wants to see the church as that group of people that take the place of Israel of old, the faithful Israel of old. But he also wants us to know that that faithful Israel of old is a universal group, the new Jerusalem, not like. I mean, the new Israel, not like the old Israel, the Old that came specifically are predominantly out of one family of the earth, but now out of all the families of the earth, God is calling His Israel the 144,000 True Saints of God. And so, no, there's a specific answer to that question. I think that's the beauty of this chapter is it shows us both aspects of the church in continuity with old Israel and yet universal in its scope. There were other questions. He interprets this as the intermediate state. And all I said is it's not a telling criticism. It's one of these sorts of things that makes you begin wondering about it, though. There's so much body language put into this that it makes me wonder whether that is not too specific. Also, remember I said at the beginning of the lesson, I think in a sense there is the church militant and the church triumphant scene here. But I don't like the strong, almost watertight distinction between those two groups that sometimes you get in theologians. See, I think we're the Church triumphant right now here in our bodies. I also think we're the Church struggling and militant on the earth. What I'm saying is I think we can become too simplistic and say, well, on earth it's militant, in heaven it's triumphant. Well, at this time, I think the saints in heaven are militant. They're militant about the victory that is required on earth in the final judgment to come. They're also triumphant. And I think those of us who are on earth are militant fighting, you see, in the armies of. But I think we also have a measure of triumph not only in terms of our earthly victories in the preaching of the Gospel, but I think we're triumphant because we know our heavenly, our final goal of being in the kingdom of God. So that's all I was getting at is I think that's a bit too path. It's too simplistic. That's right. I think we do wear them. Right. Now, I would say that this is the. This is the tribulation that all of God's people know in all the ages. No, I don't think so. But I do think the fall of Jerusalem is in this particular passage. I mean, in the. In this local context, at the end of chapter six and at the beginning of chapter eight and following, we will find the fall of Jerusalem. But chapter seven is specifically telling us how God takes care of his people in all the ages. He seals them with the Holy Spirit, writes his name on their foreheads, gives them white robes to wear, and deems them the universal new Israel. I think all those things have got to be understood. It's one of those preview types of preparation, you see. You need that. You need to know that before you go on to see now the historic fall of Jerusalem. Well, there's no reason for, there's no specifically all mill or post mill distinction in this passage. There are some on mills who have made mistakes on it, and undoubtedly some post mill as well. But it doesn't have anything to do with the what is essential to those systems of interpretation. That's a, that's a fair comment. A good one. Other questions. Good, Grover. I think the question on that Christian Henderson, is why did you need to come out of the great. Say that again. Yes. Oh, well, I don't think that we need to have come out of it to have the white robes, you say, be our garments of salvation or the victory palms in our hands. Unless we think that coming out of the great tribulation and then being part of this multitude means that in heaven we are literally going to have a white robe and a palm in our hand. But you see, I don't believe that this is a literal description of heaven. I think it's a symbolic or spiritual description of heaven. It's as though we had white robes and as though we had palms in our hands. And so in other words, I think that question, it's not, it's not untrue that those who have died or have been martyred are going to stand before the throne and before the Lamb praising him. But I don't think that's exclusively the case. But it's true of everybody who enjoys the Church Triumphant that he comes through great tribulation. All I'm suggesting is those who are part of the great multitude are those whether they have completed their course on earth or not. That's right. I'm just not trying to make it so literal that only those who have already paid, you know, with their life's blood still stand before the throne. And with white robes being their garments, I think all of us who have been saved are now clothed in white robes. Mickey, would this be a passage that you could use at all to substantiate the idea of an intermediate state? In other words, when people deny the intermediate state and say, here's John speaking to people who are on the earth and pointing to those who have come out? In addition to that, would you give any credence to the use of the word soul? Matthew 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of those sometimes used as a He didn't see the bodies but the soul, Yeah, I think that you do have their martyrs, but you have martyrs not because the word soul is used, but because they have been slain. This is going to become a little confusing here for a moment. Let me try to explain it to the class. Every time you see the word soul in the Bible, it is thought by some people that means you see the immaterial part of man separate from his body. And so now when you come to the word soul in chapter six, the pastor is referring to, don't you then have a reference to a disembodied spirit, the soul? Well, the difficulty is that the word soul is not always used for a disembodied spirit. The Bible, while that is our Greek heritage, it sometimes distorts the Bible. And I don't have near enough time, especially in the remaining five minutes, to go into biblical anthropology and a doctrine of the soul and spirit and all that sort of thing. But suffice it to say that the soul does not always refer to a disembodied spirit. In this particular case, it does refer to a disembodied spirit, but not because the word soul is used because we're told these are people who have been slain, so they're dead. And so that means the souls under the altar are disembodied spirits. But they're not literally under the altar because you say, I don't think there's literally an altar in heaven. They are symbolically under the altar because they are the blood of the sacrifice that you see, that has gone down to the foot of the altar and now cries out, as Abel's blood did, from the ground, for vengeance and retribution. It's a very difficult thing to keep in mind, isn't it, how the book of Revelation is a symbolic book. You see, we have a tendency, even in looking at the symbols, to try to make the symbols somehow tie together literally. Jesus has seven stars in his right hand, Chapter one tells us, and then Jesus picks up prostrate John off the ground with his right hand. Well, now, you might have a tendency to think there's some sense in which the seven churches you see in the right hand of God are instrumental in picking up John off the ground. Well, that isn't true at all. It's just you've changed the symbol altogether. Christ by his right hand picks up his servant, but Christ in his right hand holds his church. You don't have to tie those two together. And what I'm suggesting in the case of coming out of the Great Tribulation and The souls and so forth, is that those who have in fact literally died are before the throne and before the Lamb, and they who praise him day and night. What I'm saying is all of us who are in the midst of tribulation are also participant in the Church Triumphant. We already have robes, you see, we already have palms. And it isn't a requirement literally, that you first die before you can then enjoy that privilege. I think we enjoy it now. Now, of course, nothing is suffering in this interpretation. Nothing is lost. If you want to make it just that, you say, well, the 144,000 is the church on earth. The great multitude is the church in heaven, and only in heaven. Now, I don't think you can support that when you look at the rest of the Book of Revelation, what it says about these two groups. But even if you did that in this chapter, nothing would be changed. In what I've said about the meaning of the symbols, it just so happens that I don't think you need to take them as just watertight compartments on earth and in heaven. I think there's a mixture of those in both places. Is everybody confused? I hope not. Well, we said we'd finish chapter seven. Let's see if we can get a little bit further before the final bell. No, we can't. Let me just finish verse 14 quickly. Let me point out that this phrase being whitened in the blood, of course, is a striking paradox. I hope the fact that we're all fundamentalists have been brought up on that evangelistically needing to be made white in the blood of the Lamb. Don't let that somehow fail to strike you. You can't make things white in blood unless you're going to be symbolic about it. And we are made white in the blood of the Lamb because we are made pure in the sight of God through Christ. So sacrificial death. And there's a great deal of scriptural background for that striking image. And I'll just give you these passages you can look up on your own if you want. At Sinai, the people had to wash their garments, Exodus 19. And the Levitical priests had a long series of absolutions and purifications they had to go through before they did their work. Leviticus 14, 15, 16, 17, numbers 8, numbers 19. David in Psalm 51, therefore could speak of being washed and made white. Isaiah 1 speaks of being washed and made white as Snow. In Jeremiah 33, God washes in terms of Jehovah, our righteousness. John 13 says, if Jesus did not wash us, we would have no part with him. In Acts 22 ourselves, our sins must be washed away. Paul says in Ephesians 5, Christ cleanses His church by the washing of water with the word, so that it is spotless. And to that end he gave up his life for the church. In 1 Corinthians 6, we are washed, sanctified, and justified in his name. That is Christ's name. In Titus 3, we have the washing of regeneration. In Hebrews 1, Christ has made power purification for sins in his death. And then these two passages very quickly. Hebrews 9:14 speaks of Christ's blood cleansing us first. John 17 speaks of the blood of the Son cleansing us from all sin. Christ's atoning death in all of these circumstances must be seen as efficacious. When Christ shed his blood, it had the effect of. Of washing clean those for whom he shed his blood. What does that mean as to for whom Christ died? Christ had to die for those who are genuinely saved. Christ did not die for those who are not elect. Because his blood washes clean, it must wash clean. It is efficacious blood. And so if we say that Christ died for all men without distinction, then we must hold that all men without distinction have been washed clean of their sins. But we know that isn't true. And so this is another affirmation, indirectly here in this passage, of how Christ dies for his people, the 144,000, or the great multitude, those who come out of great tribulation and have white robes. Let's pray. Our Lord, we thank you so very much this day that you should look upon us as your chosen people, and that you should call into your church and that you should robe with white robes, justified robes. Men from every tribe, tongue and nation, we thank you for the greatness of that salvation which you have worked through, your Son. And we would blend our voices in with the voices of the saints through all eternity and with every angel that salvation and blessing and honor and might and power belong unto you. And that salvation is a glorious thing and that we shall not escape if we would neglect such great salvation as this. We thank you for the blood of your Son that has ransomed us and has made us clean. And we pray that with that in mind, you would teach us to walk as sanctified people before you, and that you'd give your church here on earth victory, that you'd make us not only militant, but triumphant, and that we do these things, that all the glory would come to our Savior, the Lamb of God, in whose name we pray. Amen.