How to optimize your metabolism: Metabolic scientist Ben Bikman, Ph.D. | mbg Podcast

The single greatest predictor of a good night of sleep is if I go to bed on an empty stomach. If someone goes to bed with elevated glucose levels, that activates the sympathetic nervous system. That is the fight or flight nervous system where they they go to bed and they wonder why am I so anxious? Why is my heart beating so hard and I'm so hot I can't kick the covers off enough, I got to turn on the fan and they have a higher body temperature. They have a racing heart that is beating harder and faster. It is not because they're anxious, it is literally because they spiked their glucose before they went to bed. An elevated glucose activates the sympathetic nervous system. So don't eat within about a three hour window minimum before you go to bed.

Dr. Benjamin Bickman is the best selling author of why We Get Sick Sick, which makes the case for insulin resistance and metabolic dysfunction as the underlying cause of many of our modern health problems. He earned his PhD in bioenergetics and was a postdoctoral fellow with the Duke National University of Singapore in metabolic disorders and is on the medical advisory board of Levels. Ben, welcome.

Jason, thanks so much for the invitation. I'm delighted to be able to talk on all things metabolism.

So great to have you on the show. It's taken way too long to get you, but here we are. So at the highest level, why do we get sick?

Well, I didn't want to be too overreaching in my thesis for the book why We Get Sick. And I wouldn't want anyone to believe that I'm making the claim that insulin resistance is the only reason we get chronic disease. But I wanted to present and make the case that in the book and in virtually every other venue where people will listen to me, that there is in fact a common soil to virtually every chronic disease and that is insulin resistance. My hope in presenting that kind of message is that at the end of it all, someone who would be opening their medicine cabinet every morning and taking out their medication for hypertension and their medication for migraines and their medication for infertility would realize that while each of those diseases are seemingly totally distinct and unrelated, and they might have various inputs or various causes, there is one cause that is common across all of those three that I just mentioned and many, many more, namely insulin resistance. So by kind of making the claim that insulin resistance is a primary reason for chronic disease, I am very cautious in making that claim. I'm very deliberate, but it is something that we can address. It is one thing that we can decide to do we could say, I'm going to improve my insulin resistance. And in so doing, we would either totally resolve or reduce the risk of Things like type 2 diabetes and polycystic ovary syndrome in women, or erectile dysfunction in men and fatty liver disease. And more and more these. These diseases, as I noted, that we once thought were totally unrelated to each other, do in fact share a common metabolic core, and that core is insulin resistance.

So if we're zeroing in on insulin resistance, what's driving this in terms of our lifestyle?

I have created my own metric because I've devoted my life to understanding this topic. I believe there are primary causes and secondary causes, and I use those terms by. And I define that based on the clinical evidence or the biomedical evidence that supports it. So the primary causes are causes that can be used to create insulin resistance in all of the biomedical models that a scientist will study. So, namely, the three most common biomedical models, like experimental models, are isolated cells, like growing cells in little petri dishes, or in laboratory rodents like mice or rats, or in humans. So those are the primary causes. If you can create insulin resistance in all of those. If it's. If you can't create insulin resistance in all of those three models directly, but it still contributes to insulin resistance, I consider those to be a secondary cause. Now, with that as the preamble, the three primary causes are stress. So elevation in stress hormones, namely cortisol and epinephrine. That is how I define a stressed state, that if cortisol and epinephrine are increased, also epinephrine is also known as adrenaline. If those hormones are increased, they will create insulin resistance. In. In those three biomedical models I just mentioned, cells, rodents, and humans, another primary cause is inflammation. Anytime immune activating proteins are up in the blood, these are called cytokines. Anytime these pro inflammatory or immune activating cytokines are increased in the blood, it will cause insulin resistance. This in fact, has been interesting over the past couple years to observe as so many people are becoming aware of this phenomenon. As we have become so interested in our immune health individually and collectively. And people are wearing continuous glucose monitors all the time these days. People will note that they were sick with the flu or with a cold, including if the cold was of the COVID 19 variety, they would note, boy, I'm having a harder time controlling my glucose levels while I was infected and fighting this infection. And that's because the body has activated an immune response. And anytime immunity is turned on, insulin resistance will follow. And then the last of the primary causes is chronically elevated insulin. I finish with that one because I also think it's the best strategy for improving insulin resistance. But anytime insulin levels are chronically elevated in a cell culture or in an animal or in a human, the system will become insulin resistant. This is reflective of a fundamental biological principle, which is too much of something will cause. Insulin will cause a resistance to that something, and insulin is included. Too much insulin will create insulin resistance. And as I noted, I end with that because it is the one that someone can do the most about that. If we had a person who was stressed and inflamed and had chronically elevated insulin, we would tell the person, okay, you need to lower your stress. And they would say, well, great. How do I do that? Well, that's easier said than done. You know, we don't know what is causing those stress hormones to be elevated. In the first place, it could be sleep deprivation. It could be chronic anxiety. It could be any number of other things. Second, we would say to the person, well, you need to lower your inflammation, like stress. They would say, well, how do I do that? Well, there is not an easy answer. It's hard to know what is the origin of that increased inflammation response. And so it's difficult to know how to resolve it. But the chronically elevated insulin, that is something someone can literally start to reverse in just hours. And so it has an enormous. We can really leverage that variable and immediately start to turn it down just because of. Because insulin is elevated with a known culprit, the food we eat is the culprit or the cure. And thus we start altering the food coming into the body, we start controlling and the frequency with which it's coming into the body. And then we start controlling insulin. But. But then, as I noted, Jason, and not to beat this point to death too much, there are secondary inputs as well that. That while they don't create insulin resistance in all of the biomedical models that I mentioned earlier, cells, rodents, humans, they still contribute to it, if perhaps indirectly. And that would be things like the linoleic acid, the omega 6 polyunsaturated fat in seed oils that contributes to insulin resistance and. And so too does uric acid. But they don't do it in all the models I mentioned. So I consider those to be secondary inputs.

So hear you loud and clear in terms of diet being something that is much more straightforward and we have direct control over. You talk about stress, inflammation. Yeah, we have some control a little less straightforward. So let's zero in on diet specifically. You mentioned seed oils, and I Want to dive deep on seed oils. You also mentioned linoleic acid. So in terms of diet, what are the main drivers? Sounds like seed oils is one of them, and we're going to go deep there in a moment. But how do you think about the drivers in terms of diet?

I have sort of four fundamental rules when it comes to a diet that will resolve insulin resistance or prevent it entirely. The first one, and I have them kind of ordered in what I think is a, is a, is a, almost a priority list. The first one is control carbohydrates. Now, some people either willfully or unintentionally misunderstand that I'm not declaring war on carbohydrates, but I am saying this is generally going to be the biggest offender, that we are a culture, more than just us in the U.S. by the way, as I've given talks on insulin resistance around the world, this is just as relevant to certain countries in Southeast Asia and many countries in the Middle east as it is here in the US but we are a culture that is obsessed with refined carbohydrates, and we get the bulk of our carbohydrates from bags and boxes with barcodes. And so when I say control carbohydrates, I mean look at those sources. If you're opening up a bag or a box to get your carbs, that's going to be a bad source of carbohydrates. And, and thus we should focus more on the least processed versions of carbohydrates, namely fruits and vegetables eaten not as a solid, not as a, not, not drinking them as a liquid. So eat the fruit and vegetables, don't drink them. And that is a way to get, maximizing the nutrients that come from fruits and vegetables, which can be healthy, while minimizing the amount of easily processed starch and sugars. So that's the first rule. Control carbohydrates. Because the more you're spiking up your glucose in your blood, which only comes from carbohydrates, the more you're going to be spiking insulin. And, and as a reminder, elevated insulin is a cause of insulin resistance. And the second rule is prioritize protein. Protein is an essential macronutrient and we need to make sure we get enough of it to maintain healthy muscle and bone mass. The more lean mass we're maintaining, the easier it is to control glucose and insulin, and the more easy it's going to be for the body to be insulin sensitive. Protein also has a very high degree of satiety and so it will naturally help a person just eat better portions and not overeat. It'll help control overeating. So prioritize protein. And then the third fits with the second, which is don't fear fat. I say that that fits with the second rule of prioritizing protein, because in nature, the best proteins come with fat. There is no exception to this. We in our hubris have, have come to these new ways of extracting protein and getting protein into humans, namely by getting protein from plants. Plants are so generally protein deficient that we have to really extract, we have to really work hard or have machines work hard for us to extract proteins from plants. Now, that could be fine, except plants that those. Those. If we're getting protein from peas, we're not getting any fat from the pea. And fat helps protein digest better. It is, it is literally more anabolic, it is more muscle stimulating to have fat and protein than it is to have protein alone. So we shouldn't fear the fat that comes with protein naturally, as we're getting the most nutritious sources of protein, namely from meat, dairy, and eggs. And those are the most bioavailable proteins for humans. And it's not even close. So as we are focusing on getting those good proteins, we shouldn't be afraid of the fat that comes with it. So if that meat has fat in it, well, then let's eat the fat. If that egg has a yolk in it, well, we'll eat the yolk. If that milk has fat in it, well, we'll get full fat dairy and not skim. So that's that third rule with I don't fear the fat. And then lastly, it's fast. We need to get off this roller coaster where we're putting something in our mouths every two to three hours. And this is why insulin, chronically elevated insulin has become such a relevant variable to insulin resistance. Because the average individual over overnight, while they've been sleeping, insulin levels have come down to a fasting level. And then they immediately spike their glucose and insulin by eating a sugary, starchy breakfast. And this is the majority of breakfasts nowadays. We will eat cereal or toast or bagels, and we're putting lots of sugar in our coffee or we're having juice, and all of these things are going to just skyrocket insulin to 10 times what it was before we started eating. And then it'll take insulin a few hours to come back down. Well, right as insulin is cresting its peak and coming down, we bump it back up again. By having a mid morning snack. And then once again, right before insulin's coming down, we bump it up again with a starchy lunch with some sandwiches or more bagels or more juice or some soda, and we do it again for a mid afternoon snack, we do it again for dinner, and we do it maybe worst of all, well, comparable maybe only to breakfast for our evening snack right before we go to bed. So we are living every waking moment in a state of elevated insulin and even well into our sleeping moments as it takes several hours for that big bowl of ice cream to kind of clear through the system.

So in terms of protein, there's a lot to unpack there. And I want to stay on protein because everything you said makes sense. But for those who lean plant based, you talk about fat. Is it as simple as pick your favorite plant based protein, I'm curious, do you have some favorites in terms of plant based protein and combine it with an avocado or your favorite nut butter to make sure you're getting the appropriate fat? How do you think about plant based protein and the and the best combination in terms of fat?

I think there is potential for plant proteins to start to rival or compete with animal based proteins in how nutritious they are. And there are newer, newer technologies and extraction methods that help it be pure. And I emphasize being pure. Well, there are two reasons. There are two concerns that I have with plant proteins that soften my enthusiasm for them. One is that plant proteins, as we are extracting the amino acids from peas, for example, we have to process say 1,000 peas to get a serving of protein. Peas are so generally protein deficient, as most plants are. And the amino acids are the product we want in our extraction and concentration of the pea substance. There are unfortunately molecules we don't want that also get concentrated in, in the same process, like for example, heavy metals. It is known that many plant proteins have potentially harmful levels of lead and arsenic in them. And so if someone can get a source of plant of pea protein, for example, where it has been tested, that it is very low in these metals, then I would say, all right, that checks that box. That's one concern that is alleviated. But and then a second concern, and this sounds like the stuff of myth, and I would not talk about it if I hadn't validated this in peer reviewed studies myself. But that is that all plants to some degree have molecules in them called anti nutrients. These are nutrients, these are molecules that inhibit the digestion of certain other nutrients like amino acids. It'll block the absorption of amino acids or other minerals. And these are things called tannins or phytic acids or. Or trypsin inhibitors that are inherent to plants, albeit at low levels, in the plants that we have selectively bred. You know, most plants in nature we couldn't possibly live on. And many of them are very harmful, in part because they contain anti nutrients that would prevent us from absorbing the nutrients from other foods that we're eating. So if a plant protein has lower levels of these antinutrients in them, perhaps due to fermentation, you can ferment plant proteins and that will reduce the level of these antinutrients. Then, then I would once again say, okay, we've checked that other box and resolved that concern. Now have at it. And then it would come to what you said, which is, how can we maybe even help it be better by coupling it with some fat? And I would say, absolutely. Protein is not meant to come alone. And the human body does not digest isolated protein as well as it does if the protein comes with fat. And that's in part because when we eat fat, we release bile acids to help digest the fat. But bile acids also help facilitate the enzymes that are involved in protein digestion. So like you said, if someone is eating a plant protein and they've checked those two boxes that I just mentioned, then absolutely couple that protein with some animal, sorry, some fruit fat like coconut, avocado, olive or some nuts. Um, those would be. Those are, those are good sources of fat. And by my estimation, the good fats are animal fats and protein and, and fruit fats, sorry, and the fruit fats are coconuts, olives, avocados. So if a person were going to add a little bit of that fat to help digest the protein and help it be more muscle building, then I would say that's a great way of doing it.

And in terms of anti nutrients, those would be.

Those are. Those are good sources of fat. And by my estimation, the good fats are animal fats and protein and fruit fats, sorry. And the fruit fats are coconuts, olives, avocados. So if a person were going to add a little bit of that fat to help digest the protein and help it be more muscle building, then I would say that's a great way of doing it.

And in terms of anti nutrients, what are some of the plants we should watch out for there? What are some of the plants we should watch out for there?

Yeah, yeah. So we've reached the limit of what I know on that topic, unfortunately, Jason. I just know that many commonly. Well, at least as of a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. So we're. We've reached the limit of what I know on that topic, unfortunately, Jason, I just know that soy proteins can be enriched with, I think, phytic acids, which prevent protein digestion. Peas can be enriched with tannins, I think, which also they prevent not only some amino acid absorption, but also some minerals like magnesium. But I don't know what the biggest offenders are in that regard. I just know that they're there.

Got it. So seed oils, you mentioned seed oils. Let's spend a moment to talk about seed oils and the havoc they wreak.

Yeah, there is a lot of. I'm delighted to talk about this and, and I'll try to not, you know, go too far with it, but there's a lot of misunderstanding with seed oils for, for good and for ill, where of course, the majority of people think the seed oils are not only benign but helpful, healthy because they lower. They can lower cholesterol levels, as if lowering cholesterol levels is the ultimate goal of all nutrition intervention. And I disagree with that view vehemently. But nevertheless, that's how some people will defend it. They will say, eat seed oils because it will help lower cholesterol. And I will say, well, what about the evidence of lower cholesterol levels, increasing risk of infections and increasing risk of cancers, increasing risk of dementia? Well, that's inconvenient data. So let's ignore that. They would say, nevertheless, that's how. That's how people would defend it. But even in the kind of seed oil conscious group of, you know, within the low carb community, there's a significant or all of them, all of that community, or even independent. There's just the seed oil conscious community. They will say seed oils are uniquely bad because it helps fat cells stay insulin sensitive. And an insulin sensitive fat cell is a cell that can continue to get fat and just grow and grow and grow. But that. That is not true. That is wrong. Linoleic acid will cause insulin resistance at fat cells directly, and it does so by promoting the growth of the fat zone. So this is to me, the meat of the matter, in part because I am a fat cell scientist. I study fat cells very actively. We pull fat biopsies from human subjects and study their fat cells and the metabolism of those cells. We grow fat cells in petri dishes in my lab across the hallway right now. So I focus on fat cells quite a bit. When linoleic acid. Well, let me back up. When fat tissue is being stimulated to grow. And that requires two essential variables. Insulin, the hormone insulin must be elevated for fat tissue to grow. Like imagine a person who's gaining fat. That can only happen if insulin is elevated and there is sufficient calories to fuel that growth. So insulin stimulates the growth of the fat tissue, but it needs the energy to fuel that growth. So there has to be sufficient calories to fuel that growth. So if someone has those pressures to grow their fat tissue, the fat tissue itself can grow through two different ways. On one hand, the fat mass, like the amount of fat that guy can pinch on his belly, it can happen either because the fat cells themselves are multiplying. That's a process called hyperplasia. But in that case, every fat cell is staying very modest sized. None of the fat cells themselves are getting really big. The fat cells stay very modest in size, and yet they're just multiplying. And so sure enough, there's more fat on that person. That's a process called hyperplasia. Alternatively, that person can be gaining fat through a process called fat cell hypertrophy, which is when the number of fat cells is set. But each individual fat cell is growing and growing and growing, potentially up to four or five times its normal size. And so each individual who grow their fat tissue, the fat tissue itself can grow through two different ways. On one hand, the fat mass, like the amount of fat that guy can pinch on his belly. It can happen either because the fat cells themselves are multiplying. That's a process called hyperplasia. But in that case, every fat cell is staying very modest sized. None of the fat cells themselves fat cell, as I said, has hypertrophied, or it's basically swollen with fat. That latter method of gaining fat, namely hypertrophy, is pathological. It's harmful to the body. The fatter a fat cell gets, the more insulin resistant and pro inflammatory it gets. For reasons that I won't get into for the sake of time. But suffice it to say, the fatter the fat cell gets are getting really big. The fat cells stay very modest in size, and yet they're just multiplying. And so sure enough, there's more fat on that person. That's a process called hyperplasia. Alternatively, that person can be gaining fat through a process called fat cell hypertrophy, which is when the number of fat cells is set, but each individual fat cell is growing. Each individual fat cell, the more insulin resistant and pro inflammatory it becomes, Particularly as opposed to the fat cells that are more abundant but small. Those are fat cells that are perfectly happy and healthy and not insulin resistant. So the body isn't insulin resistant. Well, back to linoleic acid and seed oils. Linoleic acid promotes growth of fat cells through hypertrophy, growing and growing and growing, potentially up to four or five times its normal size. And so each individual fat cell, as I said, has hypertrophied or it's basically swollen with fat that it inhibits fat cell hyperplasia. It doesn't want the fat cells to multiply. It wants each individual fat cell to get really big. And as I noted, that's a harmful way for fat cells to grow, where the fat cells become insulin resistant. So I guess to sum all of that up, whether there are defenders or attackers on linoleic acid, for a guy who looks at the latter method of gaining fat, namely hypertrophy, is pathological. It's harmful to the body. The fatter a fat cell gets, the more insulin resistant and pro inflammatory it gets. For reasons that I won't get into for the sake of time. Insulin resistance side of things, Linoleic acid is absolutely an offender. It is not good to insulin resistance. And at least one of the reasons is because of what it does to the fat cells. And that is not an irrelevant variable. People may be thinking, well, there's a lot of other tissues like muscle and brain and liver, and if they're. But suffice it to say, the fatter the fat cell gets, each individual fat cell, the more insulin resistant and pro inflammatory it becomes. Particularly as opposed to the fat cells that are more abundant but small. Those are fat cells that are perfectly happy and healthy and not insulin resistant. And so the body isn't insulin resistant. Well, back to not becoming insulin resistant, then, who cares? That's partly true. But insulin resistance starts at the fat cells. It is the first domino to fall. And then it starts basically spreading the insulin resistance, if you will, throughout the body, like to the muscle, for example. And then the body will have a hard time controlling glucose, but it starts in the fat cells. And so while it may seem like it's no big Linoleic acid in seed oils, Linoleic acid promotes growth of fat cells through hypertrophy. Deal. If fat cells become insulin resistant, it is a very big deal. It is. It inhibits fat cell hyperplasia. It doesn't want the fat cells to multiply. It wants each very likely the origin of insulin resistance at the entire body.

So in terms of linoleic acid, is it all created equal in terms of.

Sources, you know, individual fat cell to get really big. And as I noted, that's a harmful way for fat cells to grow, where the fat cells become insulin resistant.

So peanuts have linoleic acid, avocados have linoleic acid. Everyone loves avocados. I love avocados. Like, can we overdo it? Peanuts. I'm curious, your take specifically on peanuts. Pause there. Is it all created equal, or are we thinking about more of the highly processed soybean oil, if you will?

Yeah, so linoleic acid is linoleic acid. So in that sense, it's, It's. So I guess to sum all of that up, whether there are defenders or attackers on linoleic acid, for a guy who looks at the insulin resistance side of things, linoleic acid is absolutely an offender. It is not good to insulin resistance. And at least one of the reasons is because of what it does to the fat cells. And that is not an irrelevant variable. It has no regard for the source. If a person is eating a fat like, well, soybean oil is the obvious one where it is almost. I mean, it is. Linoleic acid is the predominant fatty acid in, In. In the soybean oil. In a source of, like a fruit fat like avocado, linoleic acid is a much smaller portion. But what is important is that so much of the damage from linoleic acid is people may be thinking, well, there's a lot of other tissues like muscle and brain and liver, and if they're what the linoleic acid molecule turns into and that. That is a process known as peroxidation, not becoming insulin resistant, then who cares? That's partly true. But insulin, you have a fatty acid peroxide. And so it's. It's what linoleic acid turns into. That's the problem. And so if you could prevent the linoleic AC from turning into. The resistance starts at the fat cells, it is the first domino to fall, and then it starts basically spreading the insulin resistance, if you will, throughout the body, like to the muscle, for example, fatty acid peroxide, and rather just be burned for energy, because those are two of the metabolic fates of polyunsaturated fats. It can be burned for energy. The truth is, linoleic acid is very readily burned for energy, for fuel, like any fat is. But it also has the potential to go down this peroxidation pathway if you can prevent the peroxidation. And then the body will have a hard time controlling glucose. But it starts in the fat cells. And so while it may seem like it's no big deal, if fat cells become insulin resistant, it is a very big deal. It is very likely the origin of insulin resistance at the entire body.

So in terms of linoleic acid, is it all created equal in terms of.

Sources, you know, forced the linoleic acid down, just oxidation, which is the more accurate term for burning the fat. Then I would say, well, that fat is now suddenly perfectly benign. But all the more reason to make sure that linoleic acid is coming with molecules that help it happen that way. Like for example, vitamin E. If you have a fatty acid that say it's avocado oil, but in its.

Peanuts have linoleic acid, Avocados have linoleic acid. Everyone loves avocados. I love avocados. Like, can we overdo it? Peanuts. I'm curious your take specifically kind of.

Best form naturally comes with some degree of vitamin E. Well then I would say, well, that's going to be much more benign. So while the linoleic acid itself is just going to go where it's kind of directed, whether it's going down a nice path of burning or a harmful path of peroxidation.

Peanuts. Pause there. Is it all.

It's not going to have the ability to just choose that there are going to be other molecules that will dictate which path it goes down.

So created equal or are we thinking about more of the highly processed soybean oil?

Again, while linoleic acid itself is going to generally be problematic, it's not as problematic as perhaps if it comes with other molecules that help it go down a better route.

Understood. So on the subject of diet, what I keep, if you will.

Yeah, so linoleic acid is linoleic acid. So in that sense it has no regard for the source. If a person is eating a fat like. Well, soybean oil is the obvious one where it is almost. I mean, linoleic acid is the predominant fatty acid in the soybean oil in a source of like a fruit fat like avocado, linoleic acid is a much.

Smaller thinking is how do you eat? Walk us through what's a day in the life for you.

Yeah, so I will preface my answer by just reminding everyone or informing them that I am a husband and father first and foremost. So as much as I know in the lab, when I go home, I'm not in the lab anymore and I'm not the dictator of my situation or portion of. But what is important is that so much of the damage from the linoleic acid is mommy's kind of in charge and My kids have more power than they should. So I'll preface my. I'll just make sure that's the preface what the linoleic acid molecule turns into and that that is a process known as peroxidation to my answer that I have a life outside the lab that that dictates you have a fatty acid peroxide. And so it's. It's what limits in large part how I behave. And, and I wouldn't have it any other way. Being a husband and father is my absolute priority now what I do is try to control what I can for myself. And then I have maybe additional insight. Linoleic acid turns into. That's the problem. And so if you could prevent the linoleic acid from turning into this for my children. But I view my life as one where I can perfectly control my breakfast and my lunch. So breakfast is typically a homemade breakfast. We will. We kind of rotate meals with fatty acid peroxide and rather just be burned for energy because those are kids and I generally make it. My wife sometimes helps. But typically breakfast is daddy's domain. The kids are up. I make two of the metabolic fates of polyunsaturated fats. It can be burned for energy. The truth is linoleic acid is very readily burned for fuel like any fat is. But it also has the potential to go down this proxy making breakfast. And that can be a mix of crepes. Well, I will, I will make crepes where every one crepe has one full egg in it. And yes, there's some flour and the flour will increase glucose and insulin. But these are my little growing kids and I just don't care about that. I just don't care if they eat more starch than daddy wants. I don't mind one bit. So one breakfast will be crepes. Another breakfast will just be good old fashioned scrambled eggs and bacon pathway if you can prevent the peroxidation. And for. Or we will make omelets. Typically mommy will make omelets. I don't, I've never really mastered that. But so we have a rotation of breakfast and basically I want to make sure my kids get a lot of protein and whatever fat comes with it. I'm good with that. But getting enough protein, oleic acid down just oxidation which is the more. Well, I'll come back to that in a moment because I'll just speak to myself. So I will eat breakfast with the kids. If it's an accurate term for burning the fat, then I would say, well that fat is now suddenly Perfectly benign. But all the more reason to make sure that linoleic acid is coming with molecules that help it happen that way. Like for example, very good low carb protein and fat. Heavy breakfast. If it's like a crepe day, I generally will fast through breakfast or I'll have a low carb meal replacement shake that I blend up and so that's my breakfast. Typically I either fast or I eat, depending on what we're eating with the family. Lunch, I'm at work and generally lunch is going to be little vitamin E. If you have a fatty acid that say, say it's avocado oil, but in its to no carbs, I either go to any kind of best form naturally comes with some degree of vitamin E, well then I would say, well, that's going to be much more benign. So while the linoleic acid itself is just whether it's meat because I've gone out to lunch with some colleagues, or it's a really low carb meal replacement shake, it's something that is very going to go where it's kind of directed, whether it's going down a nice path of burning or a harmful path of peroxidation. Very low carb. And then dinner is whatever the family's eating. I want to have dinner with my family, whatever it is. Now, if there's a way for me to keep it generally low carb, like if we're having pizza and I'm just, it's not going to have the ability to just choose that there are going to be other molecules that will dictate which path it goes down. So it's going to eat some of the toppings and all right, I can do that. But if, if one of my daughters, again, while linoleic acid itself is going to generally be problematic, it's not as problematic perhaps if it comes with other molecules that help it go down a better route.

Understood.

So wanted to make spaghetti and meatballs. I'm going to have some of her spaghetti that she made. I just might have less of it and more of the meatballs, but I'm going to eat dinner with the family and then generally that's it, I'm done. I eat dinner and I'm not going to eat anything else for the rest of the evening. And that's the hardest thing for me to do. Evening is the witching hour where I am more snacky in the evening than any other point of the day.

So I really, on the subject of diet, what I really have to try.

To just grit my teeth and get through the evening, not snack on anything, and then go to bed on a relatively empty stomach and I'll sleep much, much better now. However, as I noted, I'm a father too, and I have growing kids.

And I keep on thinking is how do you eat? Walk us through what's, what's it, what's a day in the life for?

You want them to grow in a healthy way. My view is if a parent can help their child get through childhood and puberty with a fairly lean body, you have almost guaranteed that. Yeah. So I will preface my answer by just reminding everyone or informing them that I am a husband and father first and foremost. So as much as I know in the last lab, when I go home, a child is going to stay lean the rest of their life if you can help them get through puberty with a normal level of body fat. And that's very much in the parents domain. We control what comes into the home. And I know kids can get junk food at school and stuff. I know that happens, believe me. But even still, parents are. I'm not in the lab anymore and I'm not the dictator of the lab of my situation. You know, Mommy's kind of in charge and my kids have more power than they should. So I'll preface my. I'll just make sure that's. The preface are supremely important. And so I take that charge very seriously. And that's not to say my kids can't eat junk food, that we do have chips, that we will to my answer that I have a life outside the lab, that that dictates by and things like that. But I always tell the kids eat protein first. Like dad, can I, can I have some chips? Yeah. Have you had some protein? You haven't had any protein. It's in large part how I behave and I wouldn't have it any other way. Being a husband and father is my absolute priority in a while. Okay, what are the options? We got some cheese sticks, we got some beef sticks, we got some cottage cheese, we got, you know, whatever else, some, some Greek yogurt, whatever. Have a bowl of this or have a couple beef sticks. Now you want some chips? No problem. Get a little bowl, get some chips and enjoy.

You know, as a parent, I very much appreciate your approach because look, kids need to be kids and it's a balance.

Now what I do is try to control what I can for myself and then I have maybe additional insight for my children. But I view my life as one where I can perfectly control my breakfast.

And My, you know, at least if it were me, the more restrictions you put on me, the more I was going to rebel later in life.

Lunch. So breakfast is typically a homemade breakfast. We will. We kind of rotate meals with the.

And I definitely did that. Although I didn't really have restrictions on diet.

No, it was just harder though. Like when we were kids, I remember saving my allowance money to go buy sugary cereal at our little neighborhood grocery store. You know, like it just wasn't in the home. You know, like we're kids and I generally make it. My wife sometimes helps, but typically breakfast is daddy's domain. The kids are up, I make. There's just junk food. Just was not as prevalent as it is nowadays. It's just soaking breakfast. And that can be a mix of crepes. Well, I will, I will make crepes where every one crepe has one full egg in it. And yes, there's some flour and the flour will increase glucose and insulin. But these are my little growing kids and I just don't care about them. Much easier to get and. But as you noted, I want to make sure my kids can be kids. You know, I don't want my kids growing up not knowing what a potato chip tastes like. You know, I'm not that silly. I just don't care if they eat more starch than daddy wants. I don't care.

But I like your approach. I think start with protein. If you're going to have whatever you're going to have, whether that's chips or a sugary treat, just make sure you get some protein before and focus on that because I, I think it's sound advice. Otherwise you lose, you lose.

You do.

So something you talked about on your Instagram I thought was fascinating was collagen. I'm a huge fan of grass fed collagen. I take our own beauty and gut collagen every day. It's good to know that I also take it with my healthy fat because.

I mind one bit. So one breakfast will be crepes, another breakfast will just be good old fashioned scrambled eggs and bacon. Or we will make omelets. Typically mommy will make omelets. I don't, I've never really mastered that. But so we have a rotation of breakfast and basically I want to make sure my kids get a lot of protein and whatever fat comes with it. I'm good with that. But getting enough protein. Well, I'll come back to that in a moment because I'll just speak to myself. So I will eat breakfast with the kids.

If it's a load in the peanut butter and we've got C and E and you've talked a lot about collagen. So let's spend a moment, talk about the great things that collagen can do for us and why vitamin C is also so critical.

Yeah, yeah, right, yep. So there are. So firstly, maybe I'll start with the vitamin C. Just thinking the best way to kind of teach this principle. The primary reason vitamin C is so important is its role in very good low carb protein and fat. Heavy breakfast. If it's like a crepe day, I generally will fast through breakfast or I'll have a low carb meal replacement shake. Creating collagen. That's the origin of the C for the vitamin C. And vitamin C helps regulate that. I blend up and so that's. That's my breakfast. Typically I either fast or I eat, depending on what we're eating with the family. Lunch, I'm at work and generally lunch is going to be little what's called a redox reaction to help create this essential amino acid or this essential peptide in collagen called hydroxyproline. So you need vitamin C to make these building blocks of collagen. And so if you don't get enough vitamin C, you develop scurvy and, you know, the gums start to bleed. And because these collagen tissues just literally start to fall apart. Alternatively to no carbs, I either go to any. You can just eat collagen and there's less of a need for vitamin C and collagen. There has been the critics, whether it's meat because I've gone out to lunch with some colleagues or it's a really low carb meal replacement shake. It's something that is very, very low carb. And then dinner is whatever the family's eating. I want to have dinner with my family, whatever it is. Now, if there's a way for me to keep it generally low carb. Like if we're having pizza and I'm of dietary collagen or as a supplement. Have long cited. Have long stated that when you consume these collagen peptides, it will just get digested to its kind of base part amino acids and like protein is. And then the body will just use those amino acids however it wants. There's no guarantee whatsoever that the collagen peptides would actually be used in the synthesis of new. Is going to eat some of the toppings. All right, I can do that. But if. If one of my daughters wanted to make spaghetti and meatballs. I'm going to have some of her spaghetti that she made. I just might have less of it and more of the meatballs. But I'm going to eat dinner with the family and then generally that's it, I'm done. I eat dinner and I'm not going to eat anything else for the rest of the evening. And that's the hardest thing for me to do. Evening is the collagen. So again, when we're consuming collagen peptides we're not actually consuming collagen itself. We're consuming the building blocks. And again, the critics would say it just gets digested to its basic amino acids and the body will do whatever it wants with those amino acids. That is generally accurate of peptides and proteins. But with collagen, its peptides are so unique, like the hydroxyproline that I just mentioned that that in fact does remain intact. And we know from very convincing data that those peptides will. The witching hour where I am more snacky in the evening than any other point of the day. So I really get consumed, stay intact and subsequently get enriched in collagen heavy tissues likely have to try to just grit my teeth and get through the evening, not snack on anything and go to bed on a relatively empty the skin and the hair. And so. So we know it. We know that the stomach and I'll sleep much, much better now. However, as I noted, I'm a father too and I have growing kids and I want them to grow in a healthy way. My view is if a parent can help their child get through childhood and puberty with a. That works. I I've become a great defender of collagen just because of my own personal life. I have this family trait, I guess where my fingernails and I remember as a little boy looking at my dad's fingernails and wondering what the hell was wrong. But I'll get these little kind of cracks in my nails that run down the length of the nail. I have absolutely nothing whatever. No ointment, fairly lean body. You have almost guaranteed that child is going to stay lean the rest of their life. If you can help them get through puberty with a normal level of body fat. I mean that's very much in the parents domain. We control what comes in. That rub on it would help as I was diligent with taking collagen. I've not had. I don't have that problem whatsoever. And I can think and I'm pretty critical at home and I know kids can get junk food at school and Stuff I know that happens, believe me. But even still, parents article of testimonials and anecdotes. But I know of no other variable that I have altered other than being diligent with collagen consumption and then having that resolution. And my nails are perfectly normal. Otherwise, I stop taking the collagen, give it a, you know, several weeks for the nails to start growing out more, and I'll start to get little cracks down the length of my nail are supremely important. And so I take that charge very seriously. And that's not to say my kids can't eat.

Yeah, for me, hair, you know, I'm 47 and I started to notice my.

Hair junk food that we do have, chips that we will buy and things like that. But I always tell the kids, hair.

Was starting to, you know, maybe thin.

A little bit, but eat protein first. Like, dad, can I. Can I have some chips? Yeah. Have you had some protein? You haven't had any protein?

It's thicker than I can recall. And nails, too. My nails are striking. I notice. I cut my nails a lot more frequently, and they're a lot thicker. Like, it's like. Takes a little bit of effort. And so I'm a big fan of collagen. And also for skin, I've noticed my fine lines, which are still fine as I age.

It's been in a while. Okay, what are the options? We got some cheese sticks, we got some beef sticks. We got some cottage cheese. We get, you know, whatever else. Some. Some Greek yogurt, whatever. Have a bowl of this or have a couple beef sticks. Now you want some chips? No problem. Get a little bowl, get some chips, and enjoy.

You know, as a parent, I very much appreciate your approach because, look, kids need to be kids, and it's a balance age, and I take pride in aging. I'm not going to ignore them. They become a little bit more gentle. And so I want to segue that to movement exercise. On your Instagram recently, I thought this was fascinating. You cited a new study that said women were better off splitting up aerobic and resistant days rather than doing both in the same day. So interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, yeah. So I can only speculate on the mechanism, though. But you noted the results of the study, which was finding that splitting up aerobic and resistance days was ultimately more effective for overall health than combining it into one bigger day. I can only think that it was just this kind of frequency mattered more than kind of the ultimate.

You know, at least if it were me, the more restrictions you put on me the more I was going to rebel later in life. And I definitely did that. Although I didn't really have restrictions on diet now.

It was just harder though. Like when we were kids, I remember saving my allowance money to go buy sugary cereal at our little neighborhood grocery store. You know, like it just wasn't in the home, you know, like load, you know, where if you were loading a big Monday, Wednesday, Friday, that didn't work as well as doing a smaller load Monday, Tuesday, when you know, every, you know, of those six days rather than three days. So I think to me the takeaway of that was that frequency matters a great deal and that I think it also is a test. Where I grew there just junk food just was not as prevalent as it is nowadays. It's just so meant to the value of habits that if you can just get into the habit of doing something. In fact, often people will ask me what the best exercise is for improving insulin resistance and I will say the one you will do, just pick the one that you will do and do it consistently. And that's going to be better than a less consistent how much easier to get. But as you noted, I want to make sure my kids can be kids. You know, I don't want my kids growing up not knowing what a potato chip tastes like. You know, I'm not that silly.

But. But I like your approach. I think start with protein. If you're gonna have whatever you're gonna have, whether that's chips or exercise, that.

Might be minute for minute, you know, a better metabolic, you know, benefit. Like if someone were to say I'm gonna do CrossFit, but they hate it so much they only do it one day a week. Even though that 60 or 90 minutes of CrossFit is going to be absolute ball busting calorie burning through the roof, It'd be better to do something a.

Little milder or a sugary treat. Just make sure you get some protein before and focus on that because I think it's sound advice. Otherwise you lose you lose you doctor.

Still intense if you can do it, but do it five days a week. So I think that study was just further proof that the frequency of the habit is going to ultimately matter more than an intense yet less frequent bout.

100% agreed. Well said. I think we get too caught up in this silver bullet exercise. The thing you talked about on your Instagram I thought was fascinating was collagen. I'm a huge fan of grass fed collagen. I take our own beauty and gut Collagen every day. It's good to know that I also take it with my healthy fat because I have silver bullet food. But I'm still going to go there with my next question because as we talk about food and exercise, get to the why for so many people. They want to feel good. And feeling good for many people means they want to be in control over their weight, weight management. Or maybe they want to load in the peanut butter. And we've got C and E and you've talked a lot about collagen. So let's spend a moment, talk about the great things that collagen can do for us and why vitamin C is also so critical.

Yeah, yeah, right, yep. So there are. So firstly, maybe I'll start with the vitamin C. Just thinking the best way to kind of teach this principle, lose some weight.

For someone listening who. That is their goal. If you could simplify to some degree, because I know it's a big question, what is the right approach for someone looking to manage their weight?

Oh, yeah, yeah. So maybe let's just briefly mention exercise before we get into the. The primary reason vitamin C is so important is its role in much meatier part of the answer. Any kind of physical activity. Physical activity will be helpful that, that if you can just get the body moving. Yes, sure, there will be an increase in calories burned, but I think to me that's less relevant. Creating collagen, that's the origin of the C for the vitamin C. And vitamin C helps regular than the fact that whenever you exercise, the muscles will very greedily be taking in glucose. And that will help insulin, what's called a redox reaction to help create this essential amino acid or this essential peptide in collagen called hydroxyproline come down. And when insulin comes down, metabolic rate goes up. That's a very well established phenomenon that when insulin goes down, metabolic rate goes up or if insulin goes up, metabolic rate will go down. So you exercise, insulin comes down, it'll help have a high, a higher metabolic rate and it helps convert the body to fat burning. And maybe I'll elaborate on that for just a moment before going on. The body has two primary fuels that it will rely on to give itself energy at any moment. It is. So you need vitamin C to make these building blocks of collagen. And so if you don't get enough vitamin C, you develop scurvy and, you know, the gums start to bleed. And because these collagen tissues just literally start to fall apart. Alternatively you can just eat collagen and there's less of a need for vitamin C and collagen. There has been the critics sugar burning or blood sugar or glucose to be more precise or it is fat burning and it's typically some ratio of the two. Insulin is what determines which fuel is the primary fuel. When insulin is elevated, the body is in sugar burning mode. It's going to be difficult to lose weight if you're constantly just relying on blood sugar as your fuel. When insulin is low, the body shifts over to relying more on fat as of dietary collagen or as a supplement. Have long sighted have long stated that when you consume these primary fuel now you have the potential of course to start losing body fat. You cannot collagen peptides. It will just get digested to its kind of base part, amino acids and like protein is and then the body will just use those amino acids however be losing body fat if you're not burning fat for fuel. And insulin must be low so that it wants there's no guarantee whatsoever that the collagen peptides would actually be used in the synthesis of new that brings us to the dietary aspect of this of ideal weight loss. Weight loss is achieved through two different processes and I believe one is better. One should precede the other. In fact, I was going to say one is better, but I shouldn't say it that way. One I think is better placed before the other. So a body can lose weight with a low insulin approach and a low calorie approach collagen. So again, when we're consuming collagen peptides, we're not actually consuming collagen itself. Now the low insulin approach I think is the best first step. So someone listening to this and they think I need to lose £50. My advice would be start with an approach that will lower your insulin. Don't count your calories, don't starve yourself. Eat when you're hungry, but don't eat when you're not hungry. And that is harder than it sounds because we get into such a habit of eating so frequently. But start with a low insulin approach and, and so you are. It is the rules I mentioned earlier. Control carbs, prioritize protein, don't fear fat and fast actually don't. I don't want to mention fasting yet. I'll come back to that one. It's those first steps, control carbs, prioritize protein, don't fear fat consuming the building blocks. And again the critics would say it just gets digested to its basic amino acids and the body will do whatever it Wants with those amino acids that is generally accurate of peptides and proteins. But with collagen, its peptides are so unique, like the hydroxyproline that I just mentioned that that in fact does remain intact. And we know from very convincing data that those peptides will get consumed, stay intact, and subsequently get enriched in collagen heavy tissues. Like, if someone can follow those rules, insulin will come down, metabolic rate will go up, fat burning will go up. And the fat burning going up is evidenced in the fact that the person may be in a state of ketosis. They may have ketones in their breath or ketones in their urine. Ketones are simply products of fat burning. They are nothing more than that. If someone has elevated ketones, again, the skin and the hair. And so, so we know it, we know that it simply means there are burning a very high amount of fat. That is all ketones are products of fat burning. So if, if they have a low insulin approach, they don't need to go hungry, they don't need to count calories, and they will absolutely start losing weight. Now in some people that will be enough. They never need to take the next step. That works. I, I've become a great defender of collagen just because of my own personal life. I have this family trait, I guess, where my fingernails and I remember as a little boy looking at my dad's fingernails and wondering what the hell was wrong. But I'll get these little kind of crack. In others, they may lose a good amount of weight and then reach a plateau and they will say, well, I still have about 20 more pounds I want to lose. And I've really lowered my insulin. I've adopted these three dietary rules. Then it's time to take the low calorie approach because energy matters. There's no question about it, energy matters when it comes to obesity and fat regulation. In my nails that run down the length of the nail, I have absolutely nothing would ever make. No ointment I'd rub on it would help. As I was diligent with taking collagen, I've not had. I don't have that problem whatsoever. And I can think of. And I'm pretty critical of testimonials and anecdotes, but I know of no other variable that it's just too many people only focus on the energy and ignore the hormone aspect to their detriment. So the first step is a low insulin step. Now if you need to get off a plateau, now it's the low calorie step. And that's where the fourth rule comes in, which is fasting. I am not a fan of low fat foods at all. Those are not natural foods. We should always eat fat as it comes naturally. I have altered other than being diligent with collagen consumption and then having that resolution. And my nails are perfectly normal. Otherwise I stop taking the collagen with the protein it comes with. And even be liberal with things like butter and cook and olive oil or whatever. But then, so it's not that we're eating low fat to cut calories and it's not that we're making ourselves hungry all the time by eating very small portions. We fast. And so that's when the person starts using intermittent fasting, you know, multi day fasting or every other day fasting. There are any number of. Can give it a, you know, several weeks for the nails to start growing out more and I'll start to get little cracks down the length of my nail.

Yeah, for me hair, you know, I'm 47. I started to notice my protocols that.

Work with fasting, but that's a good way to just start trimming back on the energy coming in. And now you are cooking with gas, you have low insulin, and you've combined that with a lower calorie approach that is fitting within some eating windows that you give yourself. And you're fasting, not taking in calories during the other periods of time.

And air was starting to, you know, maybe thin a little bit.

But that is going to be the next step to get a person off of a plateau if they got on one in the first place.

It's thicker than I can recall. And nails too. My nails are striped. I notice I cut my nails a lot more frequently and they're a lot thicker. Like it's like, takes a little bit of effort. And so. So in summarizing everything we've, we've talked about today, what are the top three things, if you will, that one should focus on if you want to take care of your metabolic health. You want to feel better, you want to look better, you want to live longer. I want to start right now. How do you rank the top three?

Yeah, well, I won't take the easy route, which is just going through those same dietary rules. But I would say lower.

I'm a big fan of collagen. And also for skin. I've noticed my fine lines, which are still fine as I age. And I take pride in aging. I'm not going to ignore them.

They become your insulin through the dietary interventions I just mentioned. So Much of longevity research nowadays focuses on these proteins, like mtor, for example. Anyone who's kind of a little bit.

More gentle and so I want to.

Segue to movement, dived into longevity, knows mtor a lot. A lot of the MTOR focused exercise.

On your Instagram recently, I thought this was fascinating. You, you cited a new study that.

Said women search nowadays emphasizes the role of proteins in activating mtor. And just by way of a brief primer for people who aren't overly familiar, MTOR is a protein that will inhibit autophagy, which is a process whereby the cells kind of stay youthful and young, if you will. And so the more you inhibit that process, the more aged the cells become.

We're better off splitting up aerobic and resistant age.

Well, a lot of people have said protein activates mtor, which inhibits autophagy. So you should go, you should avoid.

Protein and rather than doing both in the same day. So interesting. Can you elaborate on that?

Yeah, yeah. So I can only speculate on the mechanism, though. But you. You noted the results of the study, which was finding that splitting up aerobic and resistance days was ultimately more effective for overall health than combining it into one bigger day. I disagree with that view completely. If you want to focus on activating autophagy and keeping MTOR turned down more frequently than it's turned up, all the more reason to focus on lowering insulin, because insulin will activate MTOR more than any combination of amino acids will. So if MTOR is relevant for longevity, all the more reason to scrutinize insulin, not dietary protein. So the first approach would be lower your insulin through the diet. I can only think that it was just this kind of frequency mattered more than kind of the ultimate dietary interventions. I already elaborated on those four pillars. A second one would be to stop eating at dinner. And that might kind of seem like it fits in with the first one. But I mention this because that, for me personally, has been the single greatest predictor of whether I sleep well or not if someone goes to load. You know, where if you were loading a big Monday, Wednesday, Friday, that didn't work as well as doing a smaller load Monday, Tuesday, when you know, every, you know, of those six days rather than three days. So I think to me, the takeaway of that was that frequency matters a great deal and that I think it also is a test bed with elevated glucose levels that activates the sympathetic nervous system, that is the fight or flight nervous system, where they go to bed and they wonder, why am I so anxious? Why is my heart Beating so hard and I'm so hot I can't kick the covers off enough. I got to turn on the fan. And they have a higher body temperature. They have a racing heart that is beating harder and faster. It is not to the value of habits that if you can just get into the habit of doing something. In fact, often people will ask me what the best exercise is for improving insulin resistance. And I will say the one you will do, just pick the one that you will do. It's because they're anxious. It is literally because they spiked their glucose before they went to bed. And elevated glucose activates the sympathetic nervous system. So don't eat within about a three hour window minimum before you go to bed. And I guarantee a person will sleep better. For me, like I said, I tend to be a terrible sleeper. The single greatest predictor of a good night of sleep is if I go to bed and do it consistently. And that's going to be better than a less consistent bed on an empty stomach. So I've eaten my modest sized dinner. I eat a really big lunch. I really fill up on lunch. Exercise that might be minute for minute, you know, a better metabolic, you know, benefit. Like if someone were to say I'm going to do and I eat a smaller dinner by design, I want to go to bed on an emptier stomach and then I'll sleep well in good sleep. CrossFit. But they hate it so much they only do it one day a week. Even though that 60 or 90 minutes of CrossFit is going to be absolute ball busting calorie burning through the roof. Sleep is essential to proper immunity. And, and, and you noted aging, it'll help you age better as well. No doubt. And then the last one, as I'm thinking it'd be better to do something a little milder and thinking of these right on off the cuff. Right. I didn't know you were going to ask me this. I would say have a faith or life philosophy that helps you know where your priorities should be, whether it is an organized religion, and I am very religious, or whether it is just a life philosophy that helps you keep your priorities in their proper place. Which, you know, still intense if you can do it, but do it, you know, five days a week. So I think that that study was just further proof that the frequency of the habit is going to ultimately matter more than an intense yet less frequent bout.

100% agreed.

Well, which I would say is kind of family and deep relationships above anything else. Make sure you have strong bonds because we know through hundreds of studies now people with strong social connections will outlive and live a better life than people with fewer or very weak.

So I think we get too caught up and this silver bullet exercise, that silver bullet food. But I'm still going to go there with my next question because as we talk about food and exercise, I get to the why for so many people, they want to feel good. And feeling good for many people means social connections.

We have to have these bonds in our family and in our community, people that we share common values with. And we can and even reach out to people who don't share those values, but do so from a place of, you know, our, our religious conviction or our life philosophy that shows that helps us understand that everyone has inherent value.

Want to be in control over their weight, weight management, or maybe they want to.

So that's not related to lifestyle per.

Se, but lose some weight. For someone listening who that is their goal. If you could simplify to some degree, because I know it's a big question, what is the right approach for someone looking to manage their weight?

It absolutely matters to how well we live and even how long we live.

Couldn't agree more. Amen. Ben, thank you so much.

My pleasure. This was great. Thanks, Jason. Oh, yeah, yeah. So maybe let's just briefly mention exercise before we get into the much meatier part of the answer. Any kind of physical activity. Physical activity will be helpful that, that if you can just get the body moving. Yes, sure, there will be an increase in calories burned, but I think to me that's less relevant than the fact that whenever you exercise, the muscles will very greedily be taking in glucose and that will help insulin come down. And when insulin comes down, metabolic rate goes up. That's a very well established phenomenon that when insulin goes down, metabolic rate goes up, or if insulin goes up, metabolic rate will go down. So you exercise, insulin comes down, it'll help have a higher metabolic rate and it helps convert the body to fat burning. And maybe I'll elaborate on that for just a moment before going on. The body has two primary fuels that it will rely on to give itself energy at any moment. It is sugar burning or blood sugar or glucose to be more precise, or it is fat burning. And it's typically some ratio of the two. Insulin is what determines which fuel is the primary fuel. When insulin is elevated, the body is in sugar burning mode. It's going to be difficult to lose weight if you're constantly just relying on blood sugar as your fuel. When insulin is low the body shifts over to relying more on fat as its primary fuel. Now you have the potential, of course, to start losing body fat. You cannot be losing body fat if you're not burning fat for fuel. And insulin must be low. So that brings us to the dietary aspect of this, of ideal weight loss. Weight loss is achieved through two different processes. And I believe one is better, one should precede the other. In fact, I was going to say one is better, but I shouldn't say it that way. One, I think, is better placed before the other. So a body can lose weight with a low insulin approach and a low calorie approach. Now, the low insulin approach, I think, is the best first step. So someone listening to this and they think, I need to lose £50. My advice would be start with an approach that will lower your insulin. Don't count your calories, don't starve yourself. Eat when you're hungry, but don't eat when you're not hungry. And that is harder than it sounds because we get into such a habit of eating so frequently. But start with a low insulin approach. And so you are. It is the rules I mentioned earlier. Control carbs, prioritize protein, don't fear fat, and fast. Actually, don't. I don't want to mention fasting yet. I'll come back to that one. It's those first steps. Control carbs, prioritize protein, don't fear fat. If someone can follow those rules, insulin will come down, metabolic rate will go up, fat burning will go up, and the fat burning going up is evidenced in the fact that the person may be in a state of ketosis. They may have ketones in their breath or ketones in their urine. Ketones are simply products of fat burning. They are nothing more than that. If someone has elevated ketones, again, it simply means there are burning a very high amount of fat. That is, all ketones are products of fat burning. So if, if they have a low insulin approach, they don't need to go hungry, they don't need to count calories, and they will absolutely start losing weight. Now, in some people, that will be enough. They never need to take the next step. In others, they may lose a good amount of weight and then reach a plateau. And they will say, well, I still have about 20 more pounds I want to lose and I've really lowered my insulin. I've adopted these three dietary rules. Then it's time to take the low calorie approach. Because energy matters. There's no question about it. Energy matters when it comes to obesity. And Fat regulation. It's just too many people only focus on the energy and ignore the hormone aspect to their detriment. So the first step is a low insulin step. Now if you need to get off a plateau, now it's the low calorie step. And that's where the fourth rule comes in, which is fasting. I am not a fan of low fat foods at all. Those are not natural foods. We should always eat fat as it comes naturally with the protein it comes with, and even be liberal with things like butter and cook and olive oil or whatever. But then, so it's not that we're eating low fat to cut calories and it's not that we're making ourselves hungry all the time by eating very small portions. We fast. And so that's when the person starts using intermittent fasting, you know, multi day fasting or every other day fasting. There are any number of protocols that work with fasting, but that's a good way to just start trimming back on the energy coming in. And now you are cooking with gas, you have low insulin, and you've combined that with a lower calorie approach that is fitting within some eating windows that you give yourself. And you're fasting, not taking in calories during the other periods of time. And that is going to be the next step to get a person off of a plateau if they got on one in the first place.

So in summarizing everything we've, we've talked about today, what are the top three things, if you will, that one should focus on if you want to take care of your metabolic health, you want to feel better, you want to look better, you want to live longer. I want to start right now. How do you rank the top three?

Yeah, well, I won't take the easy route, which is just going through those same dietary rules, but I would say lower your insulin through the dietary interventions I just mentioned. So much of longevity research nowadays focuses on these proteins like mtor, for example. Anyone who's kind of dived into longevity knows MTOR a lot. A lot of the MTOR focused reference.