#002: Andrew Case – How to Unlock Your Potential: Discipline, Intention, and Hard Work

So I think that there's like a few different things within that where my old mentor had this saying where it's like, do something admirable and your heroes will become your friends. Because I was always thinking like, how do I get in touch with this person that is like at this level? And like, how do I become within their network? And it really was more so like just doing something that levels you up. You're going to naturally attract those types of people. So like As the business has grown, I'm able to relate more with people that are doing the level of business that we're doing.

Andrew Case is the co-founder and CEO of Noon Brew, a wellness brand loaded with superfoods and adaptogens designed to increase natural energy, enhance your focus, and help you sleep better without the crash or jitters.

Over the past year, Noon Brew has become one of the fastest growing supplement brands in New York City. And they're only just getting started.

In this episode, we cover how to deliver insane amounts of value to your customer, getting more intentional with relationships and your time, and the ROI on morning routines and journaling. Welcome back to episode 2 of the Turning Pro Podcast. My name is Ben. I'm here with my co-host Adrian.

I'm Adrian, co-host of this very new show, and we're here with Andrew Case, founder and CEO at Noon Brew.

Yeah, so Noon Brew is a superfood tea for the afternoon slump. And then we also came out with Moon Brew, which is a nighttime tea that helps you sleep better. Love that.

Well, appreciate you joining us today. Jump right into it. Tell us about a day in the life. Monday morning, 9 a.m., you're waking up. What does a day look like? Or before that, actually, I shouldn't put a time on it.

Yeah. Yeah. So day in the life. Monday morning. I mean, Monday, I mean, with e-commerce, you never shut off, you know, so you're constantly going through the different numbers. But Monday, I'm normally working out. In the morning, then I'm getting a coffee and reviewing all the different metrics from the past week.

Give me— I want times associated with these activities. That part's cute. I'm very curious about that.

Yeah. So the first alarm goes off at 5:10. Yeah. And I was out of bed probably around like 6:00, I would say. At the gym, working out, use FutureFit, which I really, really love. And then I'm normally at my coffee shop by 8:00. And then for about 8 to 9, I journal. So journal, do morning pages, and it's like 2 pages of freehand thought. And then I list out like, what are the 3 most important tasks for the day? And then I do 10 ideas and the 10 ideas are just about anything that I want. So like today it was about just thinking through like, what are some different things I can do during the summer? To make like life exciting, I would say. So I like to plan that out. Um, and then yeah, reviewing a lot of the different metrics that, that happened over the past few days.

I want to unpack a couple of those things. Like the first one, uh, my question's about the journaling. So have you found consistency with it? Because journaling for me has been something that ebbs and flows. I think there's been moments in my life where it feels like a chore, and at that moment I feel like it's not a healthy thing. And so I'm curious like what your initial motivation was to do it and how consistent you are with it.

So I used to be a lot more consistent. I think that when I go through tough times, then either I'm really consistent or I'm not consistent at all and like, like to just like be within my head. But recently I've been more consistent. Um, when I was living in San Francisco, I was very consistent. Like I would, I would have 3 different journals, one that's a 5-year journal. So like I could see exactly where I was, within the past 5 years. There is one that's a 5-minute journal. So that was really good for like a morning and nighttime with gratitude and then just like a freehand journal. And like when I'm at my best, I'm doing all 3 of those.

Love that. And then my second question was around this concept of 10 ideas. Where did you, where did you get that from?

That was from James Altucher. So he would talk about how you have to have like an idea muscle. And I think that that really helps. So Yeah, I've just been marking down different ideas. Yesterday was like how to get to like a certain point within the business for Noon Group. And so like how to get to a certain revenue standpoint. Today was about like how to make the business more exciting because I think that like it's very easy to develop a monotonous drag through the day for, for your business. So like being able to take a step back and thinking through like what are the different exciting elements that I really look forward to. But yeah, I think that just having some type of ideas that you put on paper really helped to help you with like different situations because you're always going through different situations where you need to like come up with new ideas.

To jump into that right there, where were you journaling on that this morning? Like how are you making it more exciting or how are you planning to make it more exciting?

Yeah, so for Noon Brew at least, like right now we have single serving sachets that are coming out next week. So being able to take the this business that historically all the way up to now has just been only online and making that into like more retail or going and we were thinking about like being in New York and we have single serving sachets so we can just hand these out to people after lunch because it's a product that people drink after, after lunch and they, you know, whenever they have the afternoon slump. So thinking through that is really exciting. Partnering with really cool types of influencers or creatives. Like, we'd love to partner with like an Andrew Huberman or any of those different types of people, and we have a really good product that aligns with a lot of their values. So taking more like concerted effort within that, and then just also like taking vacations and taking breaks and like being very intentional about like having work time and also having time away from work because e-commerce is always on. Like, we're always getting sales and it doesn't shut off on Saturday and Sunday like a lot of businesses do. So it's really important to be able to take that break and it's really tough to do.

Yeah, I want to unpack that a little bit. I think in theory this is something we've talked about so many times of like the overlap or the, the convergence of your personal life and your professional life. How does that influence the way you spend your time and your relationships? And do you find it easy to be able to completely segment the two, or is it inherent for you that they kind of all become one in the same?

Yeah. So a lot of my friends are founders of companies. I think that as you know, when you get into a particular business, it becomes easy just to have founders as friends because everyone knows what you're going through and it's really tough to go through those different moments. So you need that support system. So a lot of my friends are founders of different e-commerce companies or, you know, Adrian has like a great content engine company and studio. So that has been really helpful. But also like, I feel like it's tough to take a step back and like not be so in work when you are with those people. Last night I was with my buddy who's actually a friend of Tom's and he is a producer of The Colbert Show.

Or the Colbert Show.

Oh, Hugh Colbert Show. Late Night. Yeah, yeah. So I was with him and I was like thinking, I was in the moment, I was like, oh man, like this is great because like we're not talking about business right now. Like we're talking about like going to a music festival or like going to Brazil or like traveling. And like, I was like, oh man, like this is so nice to not be like so in the numbers and like thinking about what my business is doing right now. So I want to diversify within that, but You know, just like having the Brooklyn Track Club, which I'm a part of, and that helps me get out of like work zone and trying to diversify my friend group has been really important.

What about reflecting on old relationships? So like childhood friends that maybe went down a completely different path, how you think about maintaining some of those or even like severing ties with somebody, just kind of like outgrowing and it's just not meant to be. Or is that some— is that something that's like always top of mind for you?

It's not something that's always top of mind, I would say. I think that I've come to terms with like, I need to distance myself from certain people, just because also, like, I don't have a ton of time right now, I think, to like spread myself too thin. And yeah, I actually saw one of my friends yesterday that I went to high school with, so that was really fun. But For the most part, I don't really keep too much in touch with those people, but I still keep in touch obviously with my family and all of that. But yeah, I think that I want to start to be more in like, start to connect with people that are actually like a few steps ahead of me within the journey, because I think that that's really important and that helps me get to where they're at a lot faster.

Have you done audits of like your inner circle or even 10, 15, 20 people you spend time with. I remember I was journaling about it one time and Andrew and I had become like lifting buddies and we hang out like every single week basically. And you were very much, I was like, shit, Andrew's a new person in my life that I don't even know that well that I want even closer because not just work but life and all these other overlaps. And so I'm curious if you've done an audit of like maybe I'm outgrowing this person or maybe I think they're great and I want the best for them, but they're not the best for me right now. And I'd rather make room for hanging out with Ben or hanging out with Prince or hanging out with Andrew a bit more.

Yeah, I, I haven't done it in like a methodical way, but like when I've been hanging out with some recent people, I'm like, these probably aren't the people I want to be spending like a lot of time with. And then there's other times where I'm like, wow, I want to be investing a lot more time into this person, especially like when you're going through tough times, you see who supports you in that manner. And that was really, really important. But yeah, I definitely am cognizant about the people I spend my time with. And a lot of times I just want to spend time with myself because like during the day you're getting Slack notifications, you're getting hit up on email or text, everything like that. And like by the end of the day, you're just like so gassed that you just want to like lay down and reflect on everything.

I think it plays into the name of the podcast, which is Turning Pro, thinking about, you know, that self-reflection. What are the areas of my life I need to level up, whether that's relationships, health and wellness and whatnot? I think I'm curious to know for you when it comes to relationships, you made that comment a few minutes ago about like putting yourself in different circles or doing different things with different people. Are there like— were there lightbulb moments that maybe happened in your life where you kind of realize it's time to, time to level up and turn pro, if you will?

It's like a few different things within that where there's my old mentor had this saying where it's like, do something admirable and your heroes will become your friends. And because I was always thinking like, how do I get in touch with this person that is like at this level and like, how do I become within their network? And it really was more so like just doing something that, uh, levels you up, you're going to naturally attract those types of people. So like, as the business has grown, I'm able to relate more with people that are doing the level of business that we're doing. We're running into the same problem. So like, it's a lot easier to have those different conversations. And like, had I not been at that level or not even within that industry, like, we might not have had that common thread. So I think that like you can be intentional about it at some point. But I also think that like as you grow within yourself as a business, you naturally attract those types of people. Like we have friends like, you know, Matt from Huron or like Kim from Olmsten, where like before I started Noomber, like I saw them and I was like, oh wow, like they're creating really cool brands. Like, that's awesome. But, you know, I didn't have anything really to connect with them about. But now that I do, like they're friends of mine. So I've reflected on that where I have been with some of these different people and been like, oh wow, like these people that I used to look up to are now just like friends that I text and like I hang out with all the time. But it took me getting, you know, a business up and running and like being within the industry to get to that point.

I think there's a notion though of doing things that you aren't qualified to do. I was reading Tools of Titans the other day. I was talking to Adrian about I'm doing 75 Hard right now. So it's like nice being so thoughtful about reading. And to that point, it's— there's social constructs that you fall into and self-talk is a huge thing, like telling yourself, I shouldn't be doing this. It's weird if I'm friends with this person because their business is bigger than mine. But I also think that if you believe in yourself, like you can eventually convince other people that what you believe is actually real.

Yeah.

And that goes to like, you deserve a seat at that table and like those people will give you the time of day. But if you don't believe it, no one else is going to believe it either.

Yeah, I think it's just understanding where you want to go as well, for sure. Like I think that we just hired or we're in the process of hiring a really, really great part-time CFO and like he is— you just like talking to him, you realize that he's at like a totally different level. Like he is definitely leveled up where like he's worked with like some amazing companies and helped them grow and scale. And you just get like the butterflies. You're like, wow, like this is exactly where I want to go. And this guy can like help me get there. And I think that like with your network, you could have the same thing where it's like you connect with these different people and you start to see like, wow, this person is at the level that I want to play at. So like I should really figure out how I can keep them within my inner circle.

Was, was there a specific moment or lightbulb moment in your journey building Noon Brew thus far where you've noticed yourself level up? It could just be in a random conversation with a customer or supplier or with a friend, and you realize you're talking about things in a way that you didn't used to know, or you had no idea what you were doing before. Was there a conscious moment where you were like, holy shit, I've leveled up? Like, I've turned pro in a sense?

Yeah, I would say it was actually like last month. You know, like Noomber was going through a little bit of a sophomore slump. And I realized that like to get this back turned around, to really get growth back going, it was something that like needed a really intentional effort. And thankfully, like, you know, myself and the team were able to go through that and turn around. And like, you know, there is these different lightbulb moments or like these turning moments where the business really grew. And that was also from like doing something different. Like you have to do something different when things aren't going well. And we did and we got through that and like now business is really, really good. But like reflecting on that, I was like, damn, like that was a big pivotal moment. And, you know, we've talked about this before, but there's that quote that's like, either the business is growing or I'm growing. And like in that time, like I was growing and now looking back on it, like the business is growing. And that was like a really, really big moment where I'm feeling for better or for worse, turning pro. I think that like you had to go through that and that was when like I really felt that growth spurt.

What's the moment when they're both growing?

I mean, I think that probably right now, you know, the business is growing and I still feel like I'm growing because I'm understanding like what— like when business isn't going well, it's very— or when business is going well, it's very easy to overlook different things that are inefficient. But when business isn't going well, you have to uncover all the inefficiencies and you start to see like, oh crap, like I've been doing this really sloppily for a long period of time. So I think that like right now it's still like the business is growing and I'm growing because I'm still uncovering a lot of inefficiencies that we're starting to really optimize.

How are you?

How have you as a person not related to business, not related to your expertise at all? How have you changed as a person looking back to even when we met like at a Blue Bottle in Williamsburg? Looking back to that person versus right now, a year and a half, 2 years or something. Yeah. How are you fundamentally different as a person? How is your mindset different? How's your health different? What is your self-talk and how has that changed?

Yeah, I think that like when you put something out into the world and they— and also like my co-founder is like a big portion of this too. So like he's crushed it so far. Like when you put something out in the world and people buy it, they accept it, they, you know, review it and like you go through these different iteration cycles. I think that that makes you more confident that you can launch something and people will have good reception towards it. So like when we launched Moon Brew, like we sold out of it and we sold a ton of packages of Moon Brew within just like a few hours basically, which was crazy to see. And like that experience gave me more confidence. Like launching Noon Brew gave me confidence, Moon Brew gave me confidence, and we just launched Moon Boost, which was your idea in a lot of parts. And that was amazing. So I think that like me versus that person 2 years ago, that person 2 years ago was— they like— I knew that I wanted to launch something and I wanted to have a business that was bigger than myself. Um, but now I'm definitely like living through it. And I think that like, you know, the person I am now, it I would hope that like I'm a much better manager because I have different people that are working for Noomber now. I realize that finances are super important things, like I'm a lot more cognizant of money, how money flows through a business, like money flows through a business through exchange of value. So it's like, how do you provide that exchange of value and how do you showcase that exchange of value? And then also just like the level that we're playing at and the amount of like spend that we're doing each day on ads and all this, like you have to play at like a really big level to like be able to expand your market.

I'd be curious to, to learn a little bit more how the larger economic changes, if you will, over the last couple months of macroeconomic environment, how it's kind of impacted the way you think about reshifting your focus or reprioritizing like internal initiatives within your business?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that are going on right now. Like credit's becoming really tough to get. Like creditors are starting to dry up or they're not going to be— they're not as like willing to give you lines of credit as they were before, which is tough as a business that relies on these different cash conversion cycles where you have to pay for inventory and you have different payment terms for inventory and like you pay for that upfront. And then you sell through the product, you know, X amount of days after. So what we've seen with our customers is that price is like a huge thing for people now. Like they're very cost conscious and like you have to be really good at marketing and like the nice to have products are probably going to go away a lot within this year. Like you have to be a need to have. And you have to also treat every single customer as like a very like, I don't know what the, the wording is, but like you have to really treat them with care. So like retention is a really big thing. It's not just like acquiring new customers and like trying to arbitrage that. It's like, hey, we have all these different customers. How do we make a really good experience for them? And also like, what are our competitors doing and how can we be different? I think that a lot of times when we started, We were looking at what our competitors were doing and trying to model them, and it got us to a certain amount of sales. But now what we're trying to do is we're looking at our competitors and saying like, all right, these guys are really trying to push you within one direction. We're looking at the comments within their ads, we're looking at their reviews and saying, how can we be different? How can we like provide a different experience and a different type of product that appeals to these different people because you have to, like, it's getting very tough right now. But I think that also if you can survive through this, like, you're going to be in a much better place.

Where have you found success in terms of, you mentioned the pricing strategy around like discounts, buy one, get one free, like what's working for you? I think one of the things I'm so intrigued by is someone on the SaaS side of things, just how you train your customers and the behaviors you instill. Because I've heard some founders say that like if you get too aggressive with discounts on first purchases, it almost sets like this expectation with customers that makes it harder for retention when like they come back and they're not getting the steep discount. So I would be curious to know like what, what has worked for you guys since you, you make this point about like the nice-to-have items kind of falling to the wayside.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, discounting is something that you can do in different ways where it's not necessarily a discount on the actual price, but it's a discount on the value that you provide. So like you can give people like gift with purchases, which, you know, seem like they cost $25, $50, but for you, like it doesn't cost you that much, but you're essentially providing this type of value to someone and it looks like it's like 30% off, but like your margins aren't 30% within that. So there's different unique ways that you can do that. And I think that like there's different ways that you can add value. And this is what we're thinking about where it's like, how do we add value digitally that might not cost anything or it doesn't cost anything to provide? So like, how do we provide content to people that—

Verbatim Labs.

Exactly.

Good shout out, Verbatim. Yeah.

But no, Adrian has like a really, really good advice around this as to like, you know, what, if you just think about it, it's like, what does your customer want? I think a lot of people just get really focused in on this tunnel vision of like, I have to do this product and like this product is the only thing that I'm going to offer. But it's like a person that comes to Noon Brew, you know, they have problems with fatigue in the afternoons. They have problems with sleeping at night where they wake up multiple times throughout the night. They wake up and they're feeling groggy because they took melatonin the night before and You know, it leaves them feeling hungover in a lot of different respects. So it's like, these people want better sleep. So can we pair them with a sleep coach and can we hire a sleep coach internally that could provide a lot of tips and provide that one-on-one to them? And that could be like an asset for that. So how do we essentially take our offering and say like, what is it that someone's coming to us for? And it's like, if you feel tired in the afternoons, you probably don't have the best nutrition as well, or you want more information about nutrition. So Maybe we hire an internal nutritionist that can help you with that. And we have a Facebook group or we have a community that also provides support within that. That doesn't cost us anything, but it's a value add without like having to discount your pricing.

Perceived value is a huge thing. I kind of— I want to unpack the content thing. I know we haven't talked about Verbatim yet, but I would love for you to kind of give your insight into the code you've kind of cracked and the content piece of things, because you've obviously had insane success lately.

Thanks, man. Yeah, I mean, I think what you guys do really well is something that I've always been impressed by, Nanbrew, is that even when we met, you were putting your face on the video sales letter, the creative, and that scared the shit out of me, frankly. That's something that like doing this podcast is a new thing because ever since I was young, like I was scared of like going on camera, going on video. I think a lot of people are, right? So the fact that you did that, I was always impressed by. And so when I think about content, authenticity, put your face behind it if you can. If not, at least get your voice through. And then number 2 is social proof. Everything we do at Verbatim is, can you out-case study your competition? It's really it. Like if a customer is coming to you, yes, you got to solve the problem. But after that, reviews, testimonials for software companies, case studies. If you just overload a customer's marketing touchpoints with social proof, and they know that you can deliver a solution, it tends to work great. And I think that's the overlap between our businesses of like we have a bit of work with SaaS companies and software companies, but it's the same purchasing journey. It's different types of social proof. So that's actually a question for you is coming back to that original, like why I was impressed with you, was that, was that scary at all to be like filmed in coffee shops in Brooklyn and putting your face and behind, you know, in front of thousands and thousands of people online? Is that scary at all?

Yeah, yeah, no, it definitely is. And I think that like, so what's you like, I'm not really that person that will hop on Instagram Live and talk about Noob Brew, but there comes a point where you just realize you have to do it. And I think that that's also like the growing aspect of your business where it's like, well, I know that like this works. I've seen that this works and I just need to like step up and level up and do it. And, you know, some of our best ads have been with myself. And I think that it really provides a personal aspect of it. You know, like we would do all these different UGC videos and they just wouldn't do well because the person— we're sending out a package of Noombru to someone that has no idea what Noombru is, and we're expecting them to deliver a good pitch. It's like, I've been living this for the past 2 years of my life. Like I know the ins and outs and like my co-founder and I know how to pitch the product. Like we need to be the ones that are pitching it. And that has always been, yeah, it's like one of those things where it's like, all right, my back's up against the wall. Like we need something to grow. And like, I know that it's like our best ads are with me in it. So like I just need to step up.

I think it's because consumers seek connection, right? Like When you walk in an aisle, I know you guys are more digital first, but just when you think about like product selection, when you can actually resonate with something or you can put a face— like they say face to a name, but it's like a face to a product. Also, you feel more of a connection. And I think that actually subconsciously has a material impact on like behavior. You know, one business that we've talked about that I think does an amazing job of it is Audit, where they— are you familiar with Audit?

Yeah.

So like they put their face on everything, like every newsletter, every everything is Sean and Taylor. Sean and Taylor. And they've established themselves within their niche as like the go-to guys with what they do. And when someone hears Audit, they know who the people are because they put themselves front and center versus you have something that looks valuable or looks like a product or service you might like, but it might feel cryptic to you if you don't know who's behind it or what it is. And then you have to do like this whole nother layer of research. Whereas to your point, you're like, no, this product's real. I'm the one who made it. Like, look, here I am. It's that authenticity that's allowing you to have a higher conversion, which I'm not surprised by at all. So I think, Adrian, my reaction in real time to why Verbatim works is you pull the human element into content with case studies by pulling like the team members and the customers in and producing the, the dialog about that. Yeah.

So a few different follow-up points. So Omsom does this really well where if you look at their packages within Whole Foods or Target, it's Kim and Vanessa, the sisters, on the packaging. On the— like no one else does that within retail. So like They've done a great job. Even when you go into Omsom, like Kim is on the bottom right-hand corner with like a video saying intro to a founder and like people that go through that flow are very much more likely to convert. I was just actually talking with her yesterday about it. So like that's—

when are we going to see the Moon Brew with your smile right on the front? I know they can. No, I mean, here's the push. We're giving you the push. I want to see that on a shelf one day.

Yeah, for sure. No, I mean, we're going to get into retail for sure. Mudwater does a great job with it too. You know, Shane has crushed it in that regard. So there's, yeah, people want authenticity, people want the one-on-one connection. I think that there's a lot of different things within like Cialdini's influence of like having social proof, having authority figure, having reciprocity, like all these different elements we always try and like have within our landing pages because you have to have those different elements. You have to really show people like, why should I trust you? You know, like when supplements are so tough to sell. So you have to really provide that reasoning of like, why should I trust you? And like, how do I know it's going to work? And if you can solve those two things, like that's going to allow you to convert someone so much better. So like with Adrian's Verbatim, like he's showing not only like, why should I trust you? Because he has these different brands or like, you know, these different companies. But also like they're providing testimonial of like how this works and like you can kind of future plan it. It's like, oh, like if I do sign up with Verbatim, I am going to get, you know, a lot of these different companies to convert off of it or like I am going to increase my B2B sales because of like this reasoning or this other company did it. And I think that you have to do that for every single type of activity.

What about with your business? Like, was there a moment in time when you were going through this journey of getting to where you are, where like you were experiencing the pain of the problem you're now solving? Like, how did, how did it all come about?

Yeah. So, I mean, like, we basically started because Alan and I always felt tired in the afternoons. So, you know, we loved coffee. We still drink coffee to this day, but the afternoon coffee felt forced where it would make us jittery. It would keep us up at night. It would impact our sleep. We had a different relationship with the second cup or third cup of coffee than we had with the first. And Alan's background was in traditional Chinese medicine. His dad's like one of the top acupuncturists in San Francisco, and they've been in the TCM business for the past few decades. So he had a background within this. And I think that that was really the unlock for us too, is that Alan knew how to create this formula and we were able to like come out within 6 months from having the idea. We actually had the idea about 2 years ago. We launched in September. We were able to go really quickly because Alan knew how to create this formula. We went back and forth on creating Noon Brew on like, we were looking at green tea or black tea. We settled on oolong tea because it doesn't leave your mouth dry after you drink it. Like a lot of other teas have tannins in it that really leave your mouth dry and like you can't drink it in the afternoons iced. So we had that and then we just started playing around with the different types of superfoods. So We have 19 different superfoods, which I don't know of other drinks that, that have 19 different superfoods in it. And it's a unique blend that you won't find anywhere else. And I think we found this problem within the marketplace where a lot of people felt the afternoon slump. They didn't want to drink coffee, they didn't want to drink an energy drink, and they really had nowhere to turn. A lot of companies marketed their morning ritual. And we said, no, like, you can drink Noomber in the morning, but we are going to be for the afternoons. And we carved out that niche, which I think was really important because you have to figure out how you're different. Because people, when they see something, especially online, when people are getting so many different advertisements on Facebook, you have to stand out as something different. And someone has to say like, oh, this is actually different from everything else that I saw. Or else like you're just going to— they're just going to keep on scrolling. So if we just came out with matcha and we were one of like thousands of different matches, like we would have been crushed by Matcha Bar, Cha Cha Matcha, or like Rise or Mudwater or any of these different things. But like, we were like, no, we're going to do a superfood tea for the afternoon slump. It's going to have all these different superfoods that our competitors don't. And we're going to, you know, push this as like this was developed by one of the top acupuncturists in San Francisco, which is true. And that's why it's really effective.

One of, one of my favorite parts about seeing you guys grow and seeing Noon Brew honestly just crush it and grow insanely fast is that on the outside, you know, I'm following you guys on Instagram and Twitter and LinkedIn and constantly growing, constantly crushing, starting to get interviewed by a bunch of outlets and newsletters. And I love that I can see that and also have the behind the scenes of talking to you every week. And seeing like the front-facing version and then you also be really vulnerable with me saying like, dude, it's been a hell of a week. This broke and this broke and this broke. And so tell me more about like the downs that people don't see that authentically are just really tough and are really shitty sometimes.

Yeah, I mean, I think that like Q1 was really tough just because we were, you know, we're heavily based upon like Facebook ads and Google, but like we didn't have like good content that we were cycling through and now we do, thankfully. And we have like a great media buyer and all this. But like Q1 was really, really, really brutal. And in Q4 we absolutely crushed it. Like we crushed it. We ordered a lot of inventory and then Q1 was like, oh man, we're stocked up on inventory, but we need to sell through this inventory. And then that stuff starts to like stock, you know, it starts to pile up because you're very much like arbitraging. You're arbitraging everything, you're arbitraging the cost per clicks on Facebook. And if you're not seeing good results and you're like, oh crap, you feel like helpless in a lot of different ways. Thankfully, business is doing really well right now. But like, yeah, I mean, like a few weeks ago I was like, oh man, like I am going through it. And I remember it was like a Thursday, we went out to dinner and I was like, dude, like I'm going through it with our creditor. Like, I need some help. And like Adrian, the next day, like hit me up with like all these different intros, which is amazing. And then that day we launched an ad that just like doubled our business overnight, which is crazy and like not anything that you want to rely upon. But like it was one of those things where like when your back is up against the wall, like you need to test out everything, you need to throw out everything that you're currently doing because it's obviously not working. So I think that like those moments, similar to what I mentioned earlier, it's like you go through those moments of growth and you have to go through those moments because business is very cyclical where you have these summer months And then you have the winter months and you have to know that like you have, you're going to have to go through those winter months to get back to the summer months. But even when you're going through the summer months, like you're going to have a winter month. So like you have to really prepare yourself for stuff that could potentially go wrong. And there's always stuff that's really challenging. Like we had an offer that did really well and then all of a sudden we ran into inventory problems and then you're like, oh crap, like I thought I was doing well from a cash flow perspective, but Now I have to buy tens of thousands of frothers and it's going to set me back. So yeah, there is just like a cyclical type of thing that you, you just have to get used to going through tough moments because you're always going through them. And even when stuff is going well, there are things behind the scenes that are tough.

Yeah. Wait, Ben, actually hand it over to you. I'm curious. We haven't talked about this.

Of behind the scenes of SmartTheme and what you're building from the outside.

Like, you know, you are building the team incredibly fast. You guys have a great product. Every other day you're texting me that you're signing a new logo, but I have no idea behind the scenes. It's a similar question, honestly, if I can add something.

Yeah, I think like overall it's going well. I think the roller coaster will always be there. It's like one day my co-founder calls me and the business is ending and the next day it's like we're, we're revolutionary and it's like everything in between. I think the biggest learning for me is just to continue to think internally and like figure out where you can be more efficient and understand like what you can do with what you have, right? Like I think everyone can admit when they have a company, like as founders, we have massive visions. I want to do this and I want to do this and I want to do this. But that rigorous prioritization with like a very small team is very important and stack ranking like what should happen now. And I think figuring out what moves the business tomorrow, what's going to move the business in 3 months, and what's going to move the business in a year is a really good way for us to think about it. And the other thing too is the ability to move quickly. Like things are popping up all the time. I think a trend right now that we can't ignore is AI. Like I wasn't really having this conversation when I started my company, you know, a little over a year ago. But now it's like a real conversation that has to, has to happen. And so the, the main point is just continuing to like stay ahead of the curve and making sure that we are adapting with what's happening in real time because it's very quickly possible to go obsolete if you're not staying relevant and keeping up to date with what's going on in your space.

But I also think that in what you were mentioning earlier, it's like you just know that things are going to be tough at moments too. It's like you get into this not thinking that everything is going to be like the sunshine and rainbows every single day. It's a very tough thing and most businesses fail. So it is one of those things where you just develop this mental toughness that like, you know, your business is going bankrupt one day, your business is crushing it the next, and like an investor deal falls through or like you get this term sheet and you just go through those highs and lows. And I think that like, you know, when you double your business or triple your business, it doesn't get any easier. It actually gets a lot harder. You just get a lot better.

I think it's just different problems. I also think of if we wanted to have that even keel life, we would all have 9-to-5s. I think like those, those low moments are what make those high moments so much more fun. And I think it's addicting personally. It's like you're on this roller coaster. It stays interesting. But that's the thing that like wakes me up in the morning to keep going. It's, it's figuring out what that next problem is and how do we overcome it to get to the other side of the hill and prepare to climb the next one.

But even the 9-to-5 life is not really that even keel, I would say, because then you're afraid that you're going to get laid off. Like a lot of my friends are afraid right now that they're going to get laid off. And even if they're not laid off, they know of other people that have gotten laid off. Like go on LinkedIn and it's like such doom and gloom about like all these different layoffs with Meta or Apple or whoever it might be. Like everyone's having layoffs. And when you see that, it turns into this thing where you're just like, oh crap, like, am I going to get laid off? And I think that that really impacts the economy too, because then people are like, well, I don't really want to spend as much because I'm afraid that I'm going to not have a job next week and I should probably like save my money. So I, I like having a business because I at least feel like I have control of that. You know, if I had a 9-to-5 job, I would be like, crap, like, is my boss going to fire me? At least like with what you know, we're doing, we have that control where we're like, oh man, if our back's against the wall, at least like we can like figure this stuff out.

I think it's, it's betting on yourself. Like you said, I think not to discount the 9 to 5, it's more just like different decisions and different like priorities and different worries, right?

Yeah.

For me, I think the thing that, the thing that hit me the hardest was like when we made our first hire who has kids. Like, I know that sounds crazy, but it's like the buck stops with us and we're the ones that's like leading this vision to put food on the table for like our employees' families. Like that was like a shift for me. I think a moment where I was like, I need to level up and, and think about these things because the implications of your decisions when you're in charge and you have a team of people are very different than like the decisions you might make when you're just an employee at a company. And it's not that one is better than the other, it's just different. And it depends on which path you want to go down. Yeah.

Yeah, totally. It's a different level of responsibility and you have other people that are relying on you for their paycheck every single week.

All right, really quick, where, where does your ambition come from?

Uh, I think my ambition comes from just in wanting to— that's actually an interesting question. I think that like from a young age I definitely wanted to, um, have my own business. Like I saw that with my uncle, I saw that with my grandfather who both for businesses as well as my cousins. And also like I didn't grow up like that wealthy. So like wanting to provide like a really great lifestyle for myself where like my parents chose more of an artist lifestyle, which is great. And like I respect that because they, they had the opportunity to go like corporate, but they didn't. But for me, I was like, I really want to have a great business that impacts a lot of people. And the amazing thing about the business as it grows, you just naturally impact more people as you get more customers. And I think that that continues that ambition.

Has your ambition grown since launching Nibiru?

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, and we've talked about this where you start to normalize the numbers over time. I remember texting my my friend where I was like, oh man, like we hit like, you know, whatever it was, I don't know, like $1,000 today. And like I thought that like that was like this humongous milestone. And now like we don't hit like a certain number by, you know, afternoon. I'm like, what is going on? Like this business is going bankrupt and you just normalize the numbers so quickly that like you can't have revenue or like orders as like your, your North Star. And it turns into like these different reviews that you get each day about like people really loving the product. And that is what keeps me going because I'm like, wow, like as this grows, I'm just impacting more and more people. And I mean, we get reviews every single day where people are like, I have not been able to sleep in decades and drinking Moon Brew is the only thing that has allowed me to fall asleep. And you're just like, wow, like this is a humongous thing because like if you can't sleep at night, like that impacts your entire next day. Like people don't look forward to going to sleep at night that are suffering from insomnia or sleeping disorders. So if like you can provide that solution to them, like, wow, like this is a huge deal.

How does the ambition growth within the professional side of your life, how has that spilled over maybe into like other aspects of your life? Um, personal health and wellness, anything of that nature? Like, has it forced you to level up in other areas?

In some ways it, it's forced me to choose which areas I want to level up in because I think it's tough to really be heads down on a business and also like really be heads down on like leveling up health-wise or like food, if I want to like, you know, learn how to become a better chef or like a climber or whatever it might be. Like, I found that a lot of these different types of ambitions that I had before started to go by the wayside because, you know, especially when the business isn't in a good place, like you have to dedicate your entire mental energy to getting the business back on track. It's not something where you can be like, all right, I'm going to shut off at 6 p.m. And like shut my laptop and like go and do something else. It's like, no, I got to work until like 11 p.m. until I basically fall asleep because I need this business to turn around. And when you have that, like, it's hard to diversify your life and be like, I want to be this bodybuilder that has 8% body fat and like, I'm only going to eat like boiled chicken. So yeah, it's been, it's been tough. But I think that Now that we're coming out of that, that tough part now, like even earlier today, I was like, all right, what am I going to do to make this business exciting again? Because before it was just like, how am I turning this business around? It was not exciting. It was just like, I need to get through this moment.

I think, I think for me it's about like making incremental improvements in other areas with keeping ambition in your business. Like, I think an example of that would be more rigor around sleeping. Yeah. Like it's just something that I prioritize more now than I ever have. And the same with like diet. Like I eat very healthy because— and I know we've talked about this before, but for me there's a direct correlation between just like eating terrible food, not getting sleep, and then that just trickling over into the business. So for me, when I get more excited about bigger ambitions in business, it forces me to be more locked in in the other aspects of my life because for me, I like to see it all come together at once, for better or for worse. It's like an extreme outlook, but I think it just depends on what works for you.

Yeah, I mean, I think that what I've learned, and we've talked about this a lot, where the thing that I've learned from my business is that I am not the best person for a lot of these different areas. And like, for me, like, I think that like I can like come up with different ideas and like I know which areas need to be worked on and that are inefficient, but like The operations is not my, my specialty and my— and, you know, I hire someone that is really, really good at operations. And even like my co-founder is really good at operations. But also within my life, I realize that like I'm not the best person to create a diet plan for myself. Like I need to have someone that provides a fitness plan for myself. So investing in these different areas has really helped me a lot where Instead of me trying to be like, all right, what am I going to make this Sunday to be able to have for the rest of the week and meal plan? It's like, no, I'll just like pay someone to have that. And like that allows me to focus more on my business. And that has been really, really helpful. And like even like hiring that part-time CFO, like when he showed me all these different types of reports that he did, he's like, hey, like you need to get this better. You need to do this. Like you need to position your yourself or your business in this way for a potential exit if you want to do that, or if you want to just have like this type of business. I was like, oh man, like you are way better at this than I am, and like I need to invest in you.

Delegation is hard. It's something that I'm really trying to get better at in every aspect of your life, not just business. I know you mentioned Alex Hormozy when we last spoke, and I heard about Hormozy from him. So he has, he has one take that is relevant to what you're saying. It's like he started calculating like his hourly rate of himself, and then he applies that to like if I were to cook all my own meals and go to the grocery store and cook and clean and I calculate that, it's way more expensive for me to sacrifice X amount of hours than to just like eat Chipotle for every single meal or like go hire someone else to cook for me. And that to me is actually a moment of like turning pro or leveling up when it's realizing that maybe in the short term it might hurt you financially, but it's like betting on yourself and recognizing that like unlocking time in different areas to allow yourself to continue to grow is vital for like long-term success.

Totally.

Yeah, I agree. I still think there's a lot of parts of the business where I'll have this like running to-do list where I'm talking to my team and I'll say, you know what, I got it, I'll do this, I'll do this. And then I realize end of the week, it's like Friday afternoon. I have like 20 things that I haven't done that I told them I would do. And I'm like, but when, when am I going to do this? I don't have time to do this. And then you just look at the weekend and you're like, all right, there goes my Sunday. It was like my Saturday afternoon and that you can get it done in the short term. I'm sure we've all had phases of the business like that, but over a long-term time horizon, that's burnout, that's kill customer experience. And really quickly, that'll put you in the wrong direction. So like delegation is tough and I'm not good at it.

How do you think about it? Like what, what is your framework for learning to trust yourself to let go of something?

I think it's being be honest with yourself about that. There's only so many productive hours in the day, especially for me. Similar to your kind of morning hours where you just work before you take calls, I honestly only have like 4 or 5 hours in me of deep work and time to focus and actually get things done.

That's a lot. I bet, I bet you most founders would tell you more than that, but if you had a camera attached to their, their screen and them for the day, I bet you 99% of founders aren't actually doing 4 to 5 hours of deep work a day.

Probably a couple hours.

Yeah, to 1 to 2. And then it's a lot of like answering Slack, emails, hopping into something, stopping, which I think it's, it's a level of discipline that probably some of the highest performing like founders and CEOs have is they have the discipline to block out like this amount of time. And no matter what, unless the business is burning in that very moment, like they're not going to waver from that.

Yeah, I think that like also there's a few different things where it— one, if you don't know how to delegate, you're stunting your business growth because you're just basically really good at a job. It's, you know, like you're building a business, you're not building a job for yourself. So it's like you have to think through one also, like, who is like better than I am at this? And I think that it really helps when you start to think of like Hey, like, yeah, I could do this and I could probably do this quicker and faster, but like, can I just create like a SOP on this and then like have someone else do it? And then the beauty is when you do that and you start to see that person own it and they actually do it better than you, and then you're like, oh great, now I can focus on higher priority things. And then you start to just do that within all different aspects of your business. There's this really good book that talks about So called Profit First and talks about how like you should pay yourself first before anything else, because if you don't, then you're just naturally going to like find a bill to pay before yourself. But he also talks about how you need to like have different standard operating procedures for every single thing within your business because like you don't necessarily want to build yourself a job. You want to build something where you can just delegate everything so that you can work on just the most important things, which are building the business instead of working in the business.

That's our first layer of defense for hiring is like, can this person do something, one specific thing way better than I can? Because if you're not hiring people who are more talented than you in one area or another, like, odds are you're not even going to live to talk about the success story of the business. And I think that's a known thing. And another piece of advice that I got from a mentor around the hiring concept is like, from his learning curve, it was don't necessarily try and take a skill set of someone who's just really talented and try and like form a job for them within your company. Like be very hyper-focused about the thing you need and then go find the person for it, which I thought was really interesting because in the past, in my head, I'll meet someone. I'm like, that person's extremely talented. I'm sure I can like find a way to work with them. But it's kind of like after thinking about it, it's like fitting a round peg into a square hole and it just like doesn't necessarily work.

Yeah, I think I'm still in the phase, to your original question, of fooling myself into thinking I have a couple extra hours. I'm definitely not at that phase, but around the SOP creation, almost every single agency or studio owner I've talked to swears by them, and I've never written one in my life. So we should talk about—

you've never written an SOP before?

No, man. Wow.

I need some format.

I for sure, I for sure thought that the reason you crush it is because you literally Like if there was one business that I would have said is an SOP, it's Verbatim. Yeah, it's like, give me 5 customers, I'm going to ask them these 10 questions, we're going to build these 5 deliverables and you're going to do this with posting. And then here's the ROI you're going to get. Just follow this 100-step checklist.

Never.

Yeah, just hire someone on Upwork that— wow, follow them.

That blew my mind.

And like, you're on just like call with them and you share your screen with them the entire day and they'll just create SOPs for you.

You use Upwork for SOPs?

I mean, you can.

Have you done it before? I mean, I—

Going to.

No, I do.

I'm actually going to start.

Well, I was going to say, because I do my own SOPs and that's within my business. Like when my co-founders have a pain point or like a process they want built, like I'll take their inputs and I'll build it. It's just something that like I've done a ton of. But that's another interesting one around delegation is like making a hire in a certain part of the business and saying, hey, like feel free to think critically, strip this down and rebuild it the way that like you want it done. Because the reason we're hiring you and paying you is because we trust your subject matter expertise within this part of our business.

Yeah.

So for you, that's like an ops person, like hiring someone who's detail-oriented, who's process-oriented. You can say, hey, here's generally how we operate, but I need this to be step by step so I can do this for, you know, 100 brands a month instead of 50 brands a month. It'll blow your own mind when you start to realize that the to-do list that you had will probably be cut in half.

Yeah, for sure. I think next up I should probably look at my to-do list, create an SOP for each.

Yeah. Or just hire someone to create SOPs for you.

All right. When we hang out on Sunday, I know what we're doing, dude. Yeah, it's been great having you. Seriously, this is a hell of a time.

Yeah, no, this is great.

Appreciate you coming on.

Yeah, absolutely.