#005: Kelsey Moreira - Quitting Alcohol, Getting Sober, and Selling $13,000,000 of Product

And then I set out with my first 100 pounds of cookie dough to Dolores Park in San Francisco and a little cart I had built for like $500 in SoMa and sold out in 3 hours. And I was like, fuck yeah, like we're on to something real. Like, people like it, they're into it, you know. It was, uh, just kind of checking those boxes of like, it's unique enough, it's interesting, people are willing to pay the price I'm asking for, you know. I'm a total marketer, so I already had like shirts and all these stickers and magnets I was handing out, like, I tried dope in San Francisco and all this stuff. So it was fun.

Kelsey Morera is the founder of Dope, a fast-growing edible cookie dough company that has scaled incredibly quickly over the past 5 years with a notable feature on Shark Tank. In this episode, we cover why Kelsey got sober, the depths of her mental health journey, and how she's leveraged this experience to scale a startup and sell over $13 million worth of product to date. Welcome back to episode 5 of the Turning Pro podcast. We have one of my favorite people on today, Kelsey from Dope. Thank you for joining us today.

So happy to be here. It's awesome.

I said this to Adrian before, I go, she is probably my favorite founder.

That is very kind. You know a lot of founders, so this says a lot. Thank you.

We can, we can get into why, uh, but I think a huge part of that honestly is just your story. I think you have a very interesting story, a lot of roller coaster rides, um, but I think it's shaped your purpose in your life today, what you're working on, how you live your life. Uh, so would love to like dig into it a little deeper. I, I know it seems so open-ended just for me to say like, where do you want to start with it? I, I kind of want to start where you want to start.

Sure.

Um, because it's amazing.

Thank you. Yeah. And well said, like that it kind of shaped my purpose today and everything that I'm doing now is because of my journey. So I'll take you back. We can go way back. So I grew up in, uh, Sacramento. Parents got divorced when I was pretty young, like 6 years old. And I had struggled really from like 6 years old to get attention through my achievements. Like anxiety and perfectionism became my best friends because I wanted to be the best at everything I did. So I had a ton of stress as a young kid. And then when I was 16 years old, I got this opportunity to work at Intel. So big jump. It was like going from just being a kid to being an adult working upwards of like 30 hours a week. You know, I'd work full-time through the summers and working part-time through the school years for what would become a 10-year career. And that anxiety hadn't gone away. It only really got worse through that time. And I, uh, from the age of 14, had found alcohol as like this amazing release for me. Then I got this chance. First time I drank, I drank till I blacked out, and it was like I didn't have to be on, you know, was that feeling of just like, uh, I could just pretend to be like everybody else, like be relaxed, pretend to be the cool kids, and like I wasn't living with all this kind of stress and anxiety in my mind. So that really spiraled into a pretty unhealthy relationship with alcohol for the years that followed, and In 2015, you know, a series of events had led up to this, uh, in my life. Like with many people who have struggled with substance use disorder, it's like not just one final night that is the, the final straw, but for me, um, all of those things led to this night in, uh, Barcelona, actually on a work trip, which are always the worst for me. If you guys have been on work trips, everyone's like ready to cut loose and no one knows you have a problem. Uh, for someone who's an addict, it's like an escape. No one's going to be there to say, hey, you probably shouldn't have another one. So I really, you know, went full on and I came to at like 3:30 in the morning. I was in a stranger's apartment, had cheated on a boyfriend at the time of 4 years, ruined that and ruined so many other things. And I just had this like really, really clear moment in my head that morning that was like, I can be so much better than this and I never want to feel this way again. I want to be the best version of Kelsey every day. And so I made the choice to get sober and I will celebrate 8 years sober this September. So it's It's been a pretty wild ride, but that's really the crux of what's led me to everything that's been possible to date.

I think it's— yeah, it's amazing because as I mentioned to you, my roommate is also 10 years sober. And I think the thing that I'm— the thing that I love is for the people who are able to overcome it and like stick with it, it's, it's basically just realigning your focus and your values and your energy into something else, uh, to help you rediscover that purpose. Because from The minimal understanding I have from the peers to me who've gone through it, it's like you feel this sense of loneliness or like lack of direction, and it's really important to like find that course correct to be able to like dig yourself out of this hole and stay out of it.

100%. It was like, what are you funneling your energy into, you know? And at the time, you're like letting it kind of get drained and dragged away with the alcohol. But when that goes away, it's like, what am I going to put it towards now? And I got this huge just unlock of like energy and purpose and focus and like, what do I want to do? You know, I got to kind of create myself at 24 years old and go like, who does Kelsey want to be? Like, what are my hobbies? I literally had to ask myself when I was like newly sober, like, what am I gonna do? I have like— I don't have a hobby, you know? I have nothing I like to do. And, um, that's when I got back into baking. You know, I love to bake as a kid, and so baking was like meditation for me in early sobriety and a great channeling of my energy. So I meet a ton of sober founders today and it makes sense because we all have this like superpower that we've, you know, unlocked and been able to just put our best foot forward every day.

So it started with baking. Well, how did that transpire into what you're doing now?

Yeah, so I was baking like a fiend, you know, I was like up at 6 AM on a Saturday like, what do you do with this time you have now? So I was baking like cookies and cakes and cupcakes and, you know, YouTubing all these different techniques to like learn different cake making stuff and just really diving into it. And of course, like living by myself at the time, I like needed someone to share these baked goods with. So I was bringing it into the office. I'd still working at Intel at the time. And that was when I started getting those first nudges of like, hey, you know, you should sell this. This is really good. Or, uh, my kid's having a birthday party next week. Can you make, you know, these cupcakes for it? Or can you make this cake? And I was like, yes, I can. I could do a business. And so in Oregon at the time, it was like cottage industry license. So I licensed my home kitchen and was able to do a little like at-home bakery. So this is my first. Business was Monster Baby Bakery. My nickname with my family is Monster Baby for being such a messy eater and getting like food in my face. Or if I'm baking, it's like you can see I've destroyed the kitchen. So Monster Baby Bakery was my first little entrepreneurial endeavor, and this was while I was living in Oregon still. And then Intel moved me down to San Francisco for a new job inside the company, which I was very welcome. You know, when you get sober, sometimes like a geographical relocation can be a nice reset. So I was down in SF and I'm like, you know, this bakery thing was fun, but there's no way I can compete with like the world-renowned pastry chefs that are here in San Francisco. So kind of put it on the side, but I was still baking a bit for myself. And at the same time with this move to the Bay, I decided to try being a vegan, like many others who moved to the Bay Area. It was like a rite of passage, I guess, but I totally sucked at that. I loved butter, but I was leaving the eggs out of my recipes still, had a great egg substitute from Vegan Baking. And so Dope was literally born on accident 'cause I was making my cookie recipes with butter, so it's really indulgent, delicious, but it was egg-free. And I'm sitting there like, this is amazing. I can save, you know, a bowl of it and snack on it through the week, and I can still bake the cookies I want when I want a few cookies. So that was the light bulb of like, hey, this could really work. You know, the economics of making a cake for 6 hours and selling it for $100 versus like what I realized I could probably do making cookie dough en masse and selling it by the scoop. So Dope was born from that moment. Took me about 3 months of like creation and ideating nights and weekends, you know, from Intel to figure out what I needed to even start a business like this. Fuck yeah, like we're on to something real. Like, people like it, they're into it, you know. It was, uh, just kind of checking those boxes of like, it's unique enough, it's interesting, people are willing to pay the price I'm asking for, you know. I'm a total marketer, so I already had like shirts and all these stickers and magnets I was handing out, like, I tried dope in San Francisco and all this stuff. So it was fun, really fun to just get that inkling of like, we're gonna do it.

That's— wait, so your natural inclination— that's so different from so many people of like, I like baking for my friends. I'm like, I'm gonna bring this to Dolores Park and try to sell it to people. Yeah, is that just like a natural tendency of yours? Is that—

I think the Monster Baby Bakery gave me that little bit of exposure of like, what's it like to make something and sell it? And like, I had made a website and a social media, and so I was kind of like, I think that entrepreneurial bug had just bit of like, what could be my thing? Like, what could be my business to do something myself? And at Intel, I mean, I was on track to retire at like 43, you know, they have the, like the certain rule based on the age you were when you started or yeah. So I was like super safe path to have just stayed there and carried on, but I moved like way faster than Intel could take, you know, it was always like, I'm ready to like sprint and they're like crawling, you know? So it just kind of felt like I wanted to take control of what I was doing and be able to make decisions and move as quickly as I wanted to move and not have you know, a year of my life dedicated on a project that suddenly, like, the budget got cut for, you know, 8 levels above me. And like, it just— my whole year was stupid and canned. Like, what I did does not matter. So I was kind of done with that. I wanted to be like, no, this is going to be my thing and something I could do. But yeah, certainly, like, it being cookie dough and like going to sell it in the initial concept of like catering and pop-ups with the goal of getting storefronts, like, my family was like, oh, she's having a quarter-life crisis. Like, she's like, she just got sober. She's like kind of vegan. She's doing all this yoga and stuff, and now she wants to start a cookie company and she's gonna quit her job. Like, my poor, like, Scottish grandfather.

When you frame it that way, like, of course someone's gonna say that.

Yeah, no, they were.

But then it's like, when you think about, you know, the Forbes and the Inc. 5000 and like all the things you've actually done with just a cookie company, I know, belittle it to say it's so much more than that.

For sure. It all comes after, right? It's like everyone thinks you're crazy in the beginning But I'll say like, even I didn't know how incredible this would turn out to be. I knew that like in my heart I was so alive doing it. Like even that first day at Dolores, like selling it and like seeing people like light up while they were trying it. And I like loved it. And I just felt like that was the only answer I had was I want to keep pursuing what brings me so much like fire inside like this. And we'll see what happens. But I could have never told you. I mean, I freaked out when we sold our first like $100,000 of cookie dough. So to be like, hey, we've sold more than $13 million of cookie dough today is like beyond your wildest dreams, you know?

So I think it takes like most good ideas, there's someone somewhere like, that's kind of crazy. Like, I don't know if that's a good idea. I think like my, my comparable to that is that I gave up my corporate job 12 hours before my first day. And like, my dad's a doctor, mom's a nurse, come from a family of stability and linear growth and all the things. And when I sat them down, I was like, yeah, I'm not going. They couldn't wrap their head around it.

Yeah.

But at a certain point you have to do things for you, not for other people. Totally. Like, why, you know, my last job I was at GoPuff and like the second I had meetings to talk about meetings was the moment when I was like, all right, like this is, this is, this is time to, to make a jump and go do something crazy myself.

Yeah.

Did you know when that was happening? Like when you were in those meetings about talking about meetings?

Were you like, when I was internally?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. For, for sure.

Say me.

No, for sure. I, I just realized that like I wanted to be able to to make my own moves. And like, I actually was working on something to the point you made that like the direction got shifted months later. And I was like, I just spent so much time, so many, so much energy, so many meetings, so many hours like ideating and working on this thing with no autonomy to actually be able to like put my foot down if someone says we're not doing this anymore. And I'm kind of like, no, fuck you, yes we are. Like, I didn't have that ability. And that was the moment I was like, I need to be in control of my own destiny. And like learn for myself. When there's something I wanna do, I'm gonna go hard at it and no one's gonna stop me. Um, I think there's something to be said about like having a little bit of mentorship and guidance and like, you don't know what you don't know and you can learn from other people who've been there before.

Mm-hmm.

But at a certain point I've realized that like, if you're a problem solver, if you don't know what you don't know, you're gonna figure out the person who's gonna tell you what you don't know or find the book or the podcast or whatever it's gonna be. And it's just incrementally improving all the time. Yeah, going from selling one, one cookie in, in a park to doing over $13 million, like the path wasn't this, it was like this, but you figure out a way to get there.

Yeah, I always say like there's no obstacles, it's just a new path forward, you know. You have to be like, nothing can stop me, we're just going to find another way around. And that, that mindset and that resourcefulness, like you said, of not being afraid to ask somebody for an introduction or ask for help if you don't know, um, you can do anything. Don't get Yeah, for sure. Don't ask, don't get.

Was there zero fear in your mind? Like at the time where you had to leave Intel, you had to talk to your family. I'm sure friends were like, what are you doing? Uh-huh. Uh, what was your self-talk in that period?

Yeah, I didn't have any real doubt about it, funny enough. Like I felt like, um, my biggest backup in my brain was like, you know, and my husband says this all the time too, like the advice of like, think about the worst case scenario. And if you're cool with that, if you know, like, that'll be okay, then you're good and just go forward. And that was really what I was thinking in the beginning was just like, all right, if I do this, say it lasts 6 months, say it lasts a year, like I'll be even more interesting and employable to come back to Intel or to find another company or someone else that would want me. 'Cause I was brave enough to go and start this and look what I would've learned in that time. You know, had enough savings for like 6, if 6 months go by and I haven't been able to earn a dime, like, then I'll start needing to ask family for some help. But, you know, I just, yeah, I was like, let's just try it. And I was fortunate enough that it was 10 years in with Intel at the time when I started Dope. So the first day of Dope was the first day of my sabbatical. So I got 10 weeks, uh, to pretty much like test drive this, if you will, of like, let's go in, let's see how it's gonna go. And at the end of the 10 weeks, I need to make a call if I'm really gonna be able to quit my job or if I need to go back. And the 10-week mark came and I literally had to call my manager at the time and be like, I have 2 events in South Bay. Like this cookie thing has really taken off. Like I'm not gonna be able to come in and like I need to put my 2 weeks notice in. This is gonna be my thing. So they were super excited for me and really supportive and that was awesome. But yeah, it was a, the 10 weeks gave me that little like cushion of like, let's make sure this is viable. You know, like 2 weeks into the business after I'd done the Dolores Park, Spark Social was a big food park down there and I had submitted like a contact form saying, saying like, hey, you know, I've got this new cookie dough company, I'd love an opportunity to serve at your food park. I don't have a food truck, so my plan was like, I'm gonna do like a tent and table kind of concept with my cart that I have. And they wrote back in 2 hours and were like, this concept's amazing, like you do so well here, when can you start? So I'm like Googling like health permits for food truck parks, like how to do this. But yeah, step by step it just started being like, oh, this is going to be for real. So by then I was already like catering, running 7 days a week at the food park, and you know, shortly after that time, then would get the opportunity to open the Pier 39 store. Yeah, crazy.

I'm sure there were— we've talked about this a lot, there's a reason this is called Turning Pro— but essentially like levels to the game, of levels of commitment and taking yourself. Like, even when you made that decision to take that like 10-week sabbatical, that was a decision to turn pro in a sense. And like, okay, I'm going to get more serious. Walk us through if there were any specific catalysts or like points in time where you were just doubling down and recommitting and getting even more serious about the business?

Sure. I mean, I think opening the storefronts was kind of that next phase. There's like a physical commitment to it that you're going to have this space that you've now paid to, you know, upgrade and create, and you need to make it something. So we opened Pier 39, I think February of 2018 was the grand opening of that. So it's just shy of a year into business and kind of getting that next step of like, what what's this world like running a brick and mortar storefront. The Vegas store after that was another big commitment. This was building it from the ground up, $600,000 to build out the store. It was like my dream. Like it was a cookie dough bar from my child dreams. Like I could never have pictured something so awesome. Had moved to Vegas to oversee the construction of it and everything. So this was a big, like, I'm literally willing to kind of uproot my life. Had just met then boyfriend, now husband as well. So it was like, hey, this is amazing, but I need to move to Vegas to go open this store. See you soon. So things, um, yeah, it was like, you know, business was just number one for me through all of this. And another big turning pro moment and like fully committing was him joining the company. You know, he joined the business in 2019. And for people who look from the outside, it's like, wow, you guys, you meet a lot of founders who like the partners, like, you know, oh, he works in VC and like is able to just like fund their whole life and it doesn't matter at all what she does. Like she could be like making $3 on her whole day of cookie dough sales and it wouldn't matter. But for, for us, it's like, this was— this is it. Like, this is our life. We're full-time, you know. He's co-CEO with me. And, uh, it kind of doubles down on what I said earlier about like, there's just like no way that this doesn't work out. Like, we have to— you're all in. There's no chance you're going to lose cuz you don't have an option. Um, yeah, it's— I think that's probably the most recent like full commitment mode of just like, yeah, we're really doing the damn thing.

You, uh, you got there before I got there, cuz that was absolutely something I wanted to unpack a little bit of the, the husband-wife duo running a company.

Yeah.

How does that play into like your work-life balance, if that even exists for you? And like, do you guys have the ability to, to turn it on and off and try to have, you know, Kelsey and his time that isn't about dope?

Yeah. Um, it's evolved over the years. Like in the beginning, much harder when you're first adapting to it, even coming together as a couple. Where like we actually worked in the same coworking office for about 6 months without even speaking, 'cause like we were both so career-focused. Like I was super busy running Dope and he was super busy working for another company there in that office. And he was just the cute guy that sat by the printer for a long time, 'cause I just didn't even have time to engage. So then when we did meet and, you know, fell in love and we're like getting married and doing all this stuff, the idea to fully work together became like a really natural progression 'cause he was so helpful in the questions I had and the difficulties I was facing in the business. Operations, finance, this world, like not my thing and totally his thing. So it was really natural to start integrating it. But when we did first start to work together, much harder to have like the, how are we gonna turn this off? How are we gonna have like just our time and not kind of always living in this dope spiral? Maybe I was even a little worse than him at it of like we're out at dinner and I'm like, oh, an idea just came up or a problem came up and I wanna talk about it. And he'd be like, Tomorrow, like, how's tomorrow for this? Let's put it down and write this down. We can talk about it tomorrow. So I think we've really gone, come a long way. Um, I've had a bit of a personal mental health journey over the last year or so too. Like had a, um, real, I will call it like a mental health breakdown last July and had to take a full week, like completely disconnected. Um, we were really like burning the candle at both ends. Stress was just like at an all-time high and I needed to be able to stop and reset to to realize like what boundaries I needed in place to survive, to like keep making this forward, you know? Um, you can only run so fast and so crazy for so long until it catches up with you. You know, I wasn't eating lunch during the day. Like you just work through the whole day without eating lunch, working till 6, 7, 8, 9:00 PM. Uh, and then it's just always on your brain. You're not sleeping well cuz you're dreaming about all the problems you were working on during the day. And, um, that got really unhealthy. So coming back from that, like, I removed social media off my phone. That's been a beautiful thing. Like, it kind of keeps me more focused. If I'm going to check in on anything with Dope, it's only when I'm looking at it on, you know, browser on my computer. Removed email from my phone as well. Like, when I'm working, it's when I'm at my computer. I know, shock face. Get that face is going on there.

Well, I'm, I'm like hearing, I'm hearing these things, and I'll be the first to admit, in theory, it's not like I haven't thought about it. There's been moments where I've like deleted Instagram off my phone, like a week later I'm just like I like, I almost feel like it's an actual addiction in your body. Like, I don't know. The other thing for me is like, I'll, I'll like reach for my phone sometimes thinking it's like ringing, or, and it's not. Like, it's, it's addicting just to pick it up and open it for the next bell, the next notification. How are you able to like, was that like cold turkey? You like deleted the social media and the email and you never like went back?

Like, when I had this breakdown, it wasn't like, uh, I think I need to take some time off. It was like I couldn't get out of bed. Like, I couldn't move. I was like really having a like your body is telling you you need to fucking stop, you know? It was really like full stop. So when I— and I've been going to therapy for most of my life, really, like, you know, divorced parents will get you into like family counseling real young. So naturally, like, when I got sober, you know, got into a good program with therapy, and so my therapist was like, you know, you need to not even have a to-do list for the next 7 days. Like, here's what you need to do to just chill out, do something for your mind and your body each day, but like nothing about dope and all this. So when I started to slowly like come back into things with work, this was really like clear as day for me that like I needed to get it off my phone. And like, I want to empower anybody that's listening, like you can do it too. It does sound so crazy cuz we literally live in this world where you feel like I need to be on, I need to respond all the time. But like people will wait. Like if you don't get back to that email until the normal next working hour when it would be, you know, reasonable to see it the next morning or whatever. It's gonna be fine. And it actually was like more peaceful for everyone who works with Dope. We have a lot of like freelancers, less employees these days, but even them, like it's less stress on them that I'm not like writing them all the time at like 7, 8, 9 PM, like constantly asking for things. You know, Slack was the same deal, like that had to go and everybody's, everybody's better for it. We have like a much happier working environment for everyone involved with Dope cuz it's just more peaceful to not like. Be on all the time.

What other, what other changes have you made? So boundaries around, uh, communication hours, uh, social media off the phone or deleted. Um, what other impactful changes have you made?

I got a great habit tracker on my phone, so it's really easy when you go through things and you're like, okay, I'm gonna get it together, I'm gonna like start drinking more water, I'm gonna work out 3 times a week, I'm gonna do all these things. And then like 2 weeks later you're like, what did I say I was gonna do again? And like, well, who said that? I didn't say that. And everything's like gone to the wind, you know? Yeah, so this app is awesome for me. It's got a little widget on my home screen so I can see like how many things I've checked off each day, showing me how the week's looking.

What's it called?

It's called Habit, straight up, just Habit. Super easy, um, not sponsored but amazing. Um, and it's been like a life changer for me. It's like the littlest things, you know, of like, did I take my vitamins today? Did I have lunch? Did I stop work at 4? Did I, um, get 5 minutes of sunshine? That's another non-negotiable, you know, at least 5 minutes. We have a little like loop we walk around our block that's like 15 minutes, so if I can I can just make sure I get out and get 15 minutes before the sun goes down. Um, just the little things, you know, but keeps me honest. Like, that accountability was really important, and it has to come from you, you know.

Do you find like having to draw a fine line between like over-engineering it and making it feel like homework or like dreading it versus keeping it where it's still like healthy and easy? Because I've, I've tried a bunch of different apps. I would write things down, all the things.

Yeah.

And there were moments where I'm like, oh, this is exhausting. Like, oh, I forgot to like check this off or do this thing. And I think for me it's been about, uh, the things that are important for me as an individual, like integrating those into my life in a way where it becomes habitual and it's not like daunting. Like, I think for me, if I looked open like a task list and it was like a daily thing and it was 25 things to do, I think it would stress me out.

25 things is the start there, right? Like, make sure it's not 25.

No, they— so what I'm saying, it's about being very intentional intentional about what are the couple things that it's going to be, and if you can expand from there, how, how do you do that in an intentional way?

Yeah, it has to really be like a non-negotiable, you know. The list can start to get so crazy when you're like, well, I also want to read one book a month, and I also want to— and it's like, okay, but like, what's gonna help me not like have a mental breakdown again, you know? Like, that's kind of the— what are the things like I got to do every day? And I think the other thing that has made this stick was not being afraid to change it, you know, as things like progressed or time moved on, or you know, I just felt different through certain times of the year and I needed different things. Like, I wasn't afraid to stop and go, I need to reset, like, the habit tracker. Here's the things I want to change or what I actually need right now. Um, yeah, exercise is on there too. So yeah, just being easy, like, with yourself, not being so regimented too. Some people go from like, I've never worked out before, I'm gonna work out 6 days a week, and then it's like completely unrealistic. You feel like you failed and, you know, on begins the cycle. So saying like, um, I think my goal is like 2 hours of exercise in a week. And it doesn't matter how I break that up. I can put in that I— it actually connects to the Activity app. This is another thing that's helped this stick. If you've got all Apple products and stuff, it connects to your, like, My Meditation app. It connects to Health, like, all that. So it's logging, like, the number of minutes I meditated each day and the activity. So those I don't have to, like, manually update, which is really nice. I just get the check of, like, did I do it or not?

Yeah.

Um, try to make it easier on yourself than, like, having to go in for each thing.

Yeah, the 5 minutes of sunshine is so wild. I've— I literally have one on Notion that I like check off at the end of every day, and it's 15 minutes of sunlight. And it's so depressing that it's max 15 minutes because I'll literally just be on calls back to back and I'm like, I gotta get my sunshine, and I'll pop outside. And some days I'm like, it's beautiful outside. Yeah, it's like, there must— there must be a way to get more than like 5 to 15 minutes.

Well, I'm doing 45 right now. I don't mean to like rehash this about how I'm doing 75 Hard.

Uh, nice.

But I realized that I literally never go outside until I started doing this. Like, I, I'm not kidding. I would go on Monday to Friday where the only time I'd go outside is like to go to the gym or to like maybe go get food quickly.

Yeah.

Never the act of just going for a walk or like standing outside and just being, feeling the sun. Um, and it's so interesting too, cuz one of the things that I've thought about a lot is if successful people can find time to exercise, go outside, disconnect from their phone, you can too. Yeah, like, I don't care what you're building, what you're doing. My biggest battle has always been thinking everything needs to be done yesterday. That's like the thing that I've been working on to like try and— like you said, it's okay to answer an email a day late, get back to someone. Um, because you hear about these things all the time on like podcasts about like Andrew Huberman, like, you know, go outside, don't look at your phone, things like that. Um, yet like, I think majority of the people who hear these things aren't actually like doing them because when it comes time to do it, you're like, yeah, but I got to answer this email, or I have this call.

So it's a trade-off.

Yeah, the, the rationale that I've come to realize that's helped me with it is like, you will always prioritize the things that matter to you.

Mm-hmm.

And end of story. If you're busy, like if, if Jeff Bezos can raise a family and be with his kids, like you can too. Bottom line.

Yeah, totally.

I think the hardest thing is balancing the, the fact that I'm sure you an— like answer things almost immediately, even if you're waiting now.

No, her email— she has an auto email set on that says, uh, like, I get 7 to 10 days, or I get like an influx. I said, because I sent her email yesterday, it's like, I have an influx of emails. If it's urgent, contact one of these people. If not, like, I'll get back to you when I can, which I think is so badass.

Do you think your speed—

just own it.

Do you think you're like biased for speed though? And, and part of that is like reacting quickly and emailing people quickly. Um, do you think that is what helped like propel Dope to where it is now?

Like in an unhealthy way when I was still being like that. Um, yeah, I suppose like in the early days, that hunger, like I just couldn't help it, especially when there was no other distraction. There wasn't a husband, it was literally just me and my cat Chip, and like we were just hanging out, you know, just dope was it. And so that kind of, um, I still had it then, I still had that level of energy. And I guess the like journey of an entrepreneur is like learning when you need to start making some changes through it, because I get it, there are times that just feel like If I'm gonna get this thing off the ground, if I'm gonna do it, like you feel like you need to go all in. But if you really wanna make like the long run, you're gonna have to start putting in like incremental self-care steps along the way, or else you'll have a July like I did last year and like need to just chill the eff out and, you know, reset everything. So yeah, I think the ownership, like the email auto response that I did and stuff, um, there's just a lot of BS emails you're getting as well. You know, at the stage we're at, it's like really quick for me to filter out like what's actually important from what just came in that I need to respond to. So I have a starting inbox that I'll start moving things to. Um, but for the most part, like, I'm just getting a ton of stuff that really can wait and it's just not the highest priority. So by doing that, I felt like I gave myself the chance to say, I'm gonna stop and prioritize what of this is the most important to like digest and respond to versus feeling like it is in the order it came in. I need to just get back to everybody and they're all now. Um, the thing about like relaxing the intensity and the time of like how quickly does everything have to get done was also a big help for me to realize that like you'll always have a to-do list. Like the goal of a to-do list isn't to like finish everything. Like there's always going to be more to do. Yeah. So I really killed myself. I think the first few years always thinking like, no, but I've got to get through it all. And it's like, there's tomorrow, you know, like there's always tomorrow. Um, I started like jokingly ask like, will anyone die if I don't do this today? Okay. We're good. You know, the answer is always no.

You joke, you joke about it, but like you can take that analogy and think about it like, is my business going to go under tomorrow if I don't get this thing done? There's levels to it, of course, but it's a great question to ask yourself when you're under stress or you have a lot of things to do and how do you prioritize? How make a great tool?

Yeah, I think also in my mind there's always a— if I respond to this like a frame like this, I've definitely won business and won deals and have good things happen. Because I reply really fast and because I'm constantly making moves. But also over time I've realized I've also lost deals and lost business because I'm rushing and the quality wasn't what I wanted. And I think realizing that over time, it's like, hey, it's not just that you're moving fast and that's great. It's like things are sometimes suffering, like maybe an employee left because you didn't make time for them, right? Because you were trying to reply to everything so quickly. I think that learning over time, it's not maturity because I recently started a business, But that was definitely a big learning that I'm starting. I don't know if I'll have an autoresponder, but I'm definitely leaning towards your philosophy.

Yeah, I think it's intention. Like you being very meaningful about the decisions you're making, like being very good at figuring out what is the email you need to respond to and what's the one you're not going to respond to and why. Like the example is being like, if you knew this deal, for example, needed more thought and more like ironing out before just jumping the gun, it's like if it doesn't work out in the end, there probably was other reasons as well. What you don't want is to like mess up because you got too eager, too antsy.

Yeah.

Uh, and making that response happen very quickly. Um, I want to shift gears here though and talk about this. This podcast honestly isn't that much about sitting and just doing business conversation all the time, but Dope is like actually one of my favorite brands, so I'd feel remiss like not to talk about it. So like, I admittedly, this is like very ass backwards, but like I can't order the product because I, I'll eat the whole thing in one sitting. I mean that wholeheartedly. She like sent me She like sent me product the first time. I was like, all right, we're done. Like, I'm all in on the brand, but like, we're not, we're not doing this anymore.

Did you eat the whole thing?

Yeah, she sent me like 6 things and yes. So I don't, I don't do it anymore, but I'm, that's awesome. I'm the biggest fan of the brand. I just invested in it. I'm, I'm all in on it. Um, the thing I wanna tap into with you though is how you think about the delineation between like just having a quality product and then just like the brand and the community piece. Like how you think about managing those two and how one outweighs the other and vice versa. Because I think in a world of consumer today, there's so much optionality that like you need to have a good product, but also you need to give someone a reason to come back to that good product.

Yeah. Like, what's the why?

Yeah. Yeah.

I felt like, you know, as I mentioned, big marketing person. So in the beginning for me, it was like, yes, this cookie dough is amazing. I'm so excited to sell it. But also like, what's the brand gonna be and what's the name and what's the like whole reason. And I think in something like a commodity like cookie dough, you know, I mean, not only can you make it at home, but like Nestlé and Pillsbury, they've been crushing it for a long time. Like they're just doing their thing. So you're trying to break through in what has just already been around and like what's gonna be interesting about you. So I knew it couldn't just be the product. And for me, this was like the interweaving of, you know, my personal why and the business. I had a big, I think, exposure to philanthropy really starting in my Intel days. Like they had sent me on a volunteer trip to the Philippines for 2 weeks. Like they do just an incredible amount of stuff to support the world. It's like a company that's making a ton of money, but they also do so much good. So I felt like I had that in my head from the beginning. It was kind of like, what could be like my reason and my why with Dope? And it turned into what is now Dope for Hope, starting at our very first like brick and mortar-ish opening. Before we had the pier, we had a little kiosk on Market Street, and the grand opening was on my 2-year sobriety. Anniversary on the exact day. So I had said on the Facebook event, if you say it's dope to be sober at checkout, you'll get 20% off in honor of the founder's sober birthday. And I started getting flooded with messages from people saying, you know, they were a couple weeks sober and asking if I knew of any good meetings in the city, or someone who was 13 years sober and said he had never told anyone, and it was really cool to see me sharing that publicly.

And I just got chills hearing that.

So cool. I mean, I— and many others of similar variations, and it was just such a— I felt like Dope got to be a little lighthouse in that moment. Like, we got to say, like, hey, like, me too. And if you're going through it or you've gone through it, like, you're not alone. And so I started Dope for Hope, my goal to break the stigma around mental health and addiction recovery and help people not feel like they need to wait 13 years to share, you know, their, their story and share what they've gone through. Because to me, you know, people would ask, like, you're gonna tell investors that you're sober? Like, aren't you worried they're gonna think, you know, you're like, something's wrong? And I'm like, I can't wait to tell them I'm sober. Like, this is the coolest thing about me. Like, I cannot wait. It means I saw something wasn't working in my life and I changed it. Like, that's something I should be so proud of. And I felt like kind of the historical 12-step programs that really relied on anonymity were in some ways hurting it, making it feel like I had something to hide and be shameful of. Um, so that paired with, you know, my own experience with mental health, I just felt like I really could do something with the company to make a change here. So with Dope for Hope, we donate 1% of all of our sales company-wide. It's not of profit, so it doesn't matter that we've, you know, gone a few years without a profit so far, but, uh, still donating 1% of all sales. So more than $100,000 to date to nonprofits that work in the space. Um, we also do a bunch for our communities. So Mental Health Mondays, we do like text blasts to our whole text list. You know, people are using SMS just to sell stuff exclusively. We send out texts that are like, hey, give us one high and one low from your last week. We want to hear how you're doing. And like, there's a real human here waiting to respond. And we have hundreds of conversations that start with people telling us what's happening in their world. Some people saying like, man, this felt really good to be able to say it, or I can't believe I'm writing a cookie dough company this, but like, thank you for asking. You know, no one's asked how I'm doing recently. And we forget that sometimes, like, not everybody has a loving husband that they— that's asking how they're doing, or a parent, or a close friend. A lot of people are really, really alone right now. So the community side for me was really serious that through email and through text and through social media, we weren't just going to be a company selling stuff. I want to share valuable resources. I want to really engage with our customers and community, ask how they're actually doing, and have real conversations and support them where they need it. We just added with the Smart theme— I'm sorry, with the Platter.

No, shut up, Platter. No, it's OK. Hopefully by— maybe by the time this airs, the, uh, the rebrand will be done.

Sure. Uh, with the Smart Platter— sorry, with the Platter, um, launch, we actually just added a vent session to our website. So on our about page, there's like a section that says like, if you just need to vent, like, we're here to listen. If you want to drop your email, we'll get back to you. And if not, consider this your anonymous vent session. And I respond to all of these personally. They don't get my autoresponder. I do respond to these personally. And Um, it's just incredible. Like people really just need somebody to hear them, you know, it's like a big reminder of just the human experience we're going through all the variations of problems, people, um, addicts reaching out for help, wanting to get sober, seeing my story and thinking there might be hope for them and giving me the chance to share like resources that could really change their life. So, um, it's come really full circle with the mission and the WeFunder we're running right now, the crowdfunding campaign. Seeing the community be able to invest. We actually had a woman write that, you know, she's been receiving Dope's emails and texts over the years and that we've pulled her out of a depression so many times and made life worth living, um, which is just like, you know, I'm not just selling cookie dough, you know.

I think like when you get to a certain point, you're— I don't know what the right word is, but it's like a marketing company that also happens to sell cookie dough.

Totally. Right.

And I think that, that to me is a huge tenet of like a brand with a real community is when like people aren't like, I'm sure if tomorrow you were like selling something that isn't cookie dough, there's probably a ton of people that would maybe like, I'm a little confused, but like they'll buy it anyways.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Because their, their why in terms of why they, uh, align with your brand is so much greater than the product itself that you're selling.

100%. It's, yeah, it's deeper than just the product. And, um, in this fleeting world where everything is so like kind of hit or miss, to connect to something that affects so many people so deeply, it will be more long-lasting than, you know, just going out there trying to dish out some delicious cookie dough.

Yeah. Has, has your mission behind the brand changed since day one? Like, maybe day one it was, I want to make delicious cookie dough and like share it with people and share that joy. It seems a lot of what you're telling me right now, it's like there's this bigger mission around it. There's a real why. Like, how has that evolved for you?

Yeah, I think like over those first 6 months or so, it was really kind of like trying to figure out how I would do it and what it would look like. And, um, and while doing the whole like, what would the actual business be? So yeah, I think over those first 6 months it was like setting up the business to be stable enough of like, what's this gonna look like? What's our path? And then as soon as that, um, you know, that 2-year sober birthday grand opening happened, it was like, got it. You know, then I kind of put pen to paper about like, what could this look like? Dope for Hope, you know, Life is Raw, Cookie Dough Helps, all the things kind of like came together of what could this really look like.

You said like pen to paper. Was that literally a session that you were like, okay, the business is stable to a point. Yeah. Obviously we still wanna grow it, but did you block out a session, like go to a coffee shop and like actually write this stuff down?

Yeah, I was in, I think that coworking office at the time actually, um, had an employee that was, uh, kind of helping to support on like brand strategy and whatnot, kind of quasi-friend kind of supporting. And so yeah, we had a brainstorm session about what this could look like to have like a philanthropic arm of the company, which like you stated, you know, I almost say is like the body of the company now. And then our arm is making cookie dough. So, uh, we're over here mixing it, but the whole, yeah, why became the core. So that evolution just, I don't know, it fed itself. It like continued to get stronger as time went on and you see how well it's resonating with the community and then you find new ways that you could engage. Really like sinking my teeth into the like recovery and mental health community, you know, starting to meet new people in that space and just, yeah, continue to open up doors and opportunity for us.

What's next for Dope?

World cookie dough domination. No, like I gotta do that. Same that I said on Shark Tank is still true, you know, I think. Our big evolution, you know, going from being a brick-and-mortar storefront, pandemic happens. We, thanks to my husband, had started focusing on e-commerce in late '19. So our e-commerce business skyrocketed, did like $2.5 of $2.7 million online in '20 after having been 98% brick-and-mortar storefronts the year before. So just a massive shift there. Spent a year, you know, getting that stabilized and focusing on starting retailer relationships. And then last year, we launched more than 1,000 grocery store doors. So we've had a big kind of like— every year has been a just massive learning curve. And this year gets to be like the year of profitability and the year of scale, trying to expand our reach. We've got one of our major retailers taking us nationwide this year. So it's like, yeah, it's a huge, huge win. So it's like those incremental moments of like, OK, this is in, and just keep growing, trying to expand our presence with Costco. But I think at its core, like, profitability is really the main focus for Dope next to try and be sustainable long term, not need like a white knight VC to come in and save us or an acquisition to happen. We really want to make it a more stable business. We had followed the kind of grow at all costs mentality that many CPG companies had over the last, you know, 5, 10 years. And this will be a healthier path for us. So really excited to not feel that pressure of like, you know, raise or it's bust.

Like, feel that pressure.

Do I feel that?

Did you feel that?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, I mean, when you're growing with that idea that you're gonna have, you know, some big raise that's gonna take place and save the day with a few million dollars, um, and even you raise that and you're gonna go and spend at the cadence you thought you would to keep growing and need to raise again. Like, I just wanted to get off of that treadmill, and that's definitely where I felt like we were gonna start heading. So I think we're in a much healthier spot now. And it's a product that we've served to an incredible amount of people, so tried and true. Got a community that's super excited. And it's just sort of like, let's do it. We're ready. It's going to make it. We just got to find a healthier path with the profitability. But we're almost there. I'm proud to say we're at like a $10K a month burn, which is a far cry from where we'd been in the past.

She's one of our— I don't even know if you knew this. She's one of our champion customers.

Really?

Champion. Yes. I like— I didn't know I had that title. Do I get a name tag?

You could have one.

Flattered. Champion. Champion. Champion.

Cool.

I'm curious, as you— so a lot of things are going really well right now, clearly. What are a couple of things— this could be personal or business-wise— some things that you're working on that are not where you want it to be? It could be your personal life, could be anything.

You know, things are so much more stable than they were a year before. Probably why I'm able to have the 7 to 10 day responder on my email. There are less, oh my God, fires than there were before about a lot of things, in large part thanks to my husband who handles the operations side. I'm sure there's some he just doesn't tell me about until the fire has been handled. So that's been a nice balance. But yeah, really right now, just continuing to be focused on profitability is the biggest challenge we're facing, just trying to make sure that we're going to be able to do it. And, you know, as you grow in retail, it's like, the deductions and the free fills. And there's just a lot of unknowns that keep coming up. So the cash flow is probably the biggest challenge that I feel is like, man, I just wish, I wish this could be a little more secured and smooth and safe. But that's how CPG is. There's just a lot of unknowns that you can't, can't forecast.

If Dope fails, why?

It just ain't happening. I just can't. I can't even, I can't even let myself contemplate that question. Yeah, I just don't let my brain go there. There just is no, no option for failure.

I think the way that we get responses on that question just says so much about the founder. Yeah, it's interesting because some people will like take it very analytically and they'll say like, all right, if like we can't figure out here where the risk is, or like we hire bad or something like— no, next question, next one.

Um, no, yeah, I Sure, the government like outlaws cookie dough in the US. Like, that could be tough, but I'd probably just go to a country that still allowed it and we'd make it.

Relocate HQ.

Totally. We got good contacts in Canada with the She Recovers Foundation. We'd do it. So Brazil— my husband's Brazilian— we'd be doing it down there. Massagem cookie, that's how they call it in Brazil. Cookie dough.

What, um, so, okay, so you mentioned cash flows. Like, what's top of mind for the business? For you personally, what are you— same question, but What are you working at? What are you not great at that you're like, okay, I know this is an area for improvement and I'm actively working on it.

I'm not perfect, but, um, I'm the media buyer for Dope now, so still like evolving and learning and ad buying. Um, we've had like a lot of ups and downs with Facebook over the last year, like so many. Um, I don't know if you guys have been privy to this over even the last week, but like Meta had a massive crash on, on Sunday.

Oh yeah.

Everything just like completely hit the fan. Like Some people were saying theirs have rebounded, you know, ours did not. So I totally dropped the budget down to just almost nothing. Um, so yeah, I think like the, that's a whole nother conversation about like the changing landscape of what e-commerce will look like ongoing for brands. You know, for us, I really see like the scale in retail is where our business will continue to grow. And e-commerce is a great lab for us to try out new products and new flavors. Uh, great way for like true to brand, you know, loyal customers who want to buy it or send it as gifts. But it's just not gonna be the growth engine that it used to be. You know, you, you had lots of companies that were like exclusively living on D2C cuz they could, hi Facebook, I'd like customers, here's the money, and they would do it and things worked out great. There's so much volatility there. So I think if I had to say kind of what I'm scratching my head on and trying to take the step back of like where else and how else could this work more, um, effectively, it's new customer acquisition for e-commerce. Yeah, I think that that's probably the biggest, like, I wish this was working better. Like, wish it was working like it used to. It just, the system's kind of wonky these days. So what's the new frontier there remains to be seen. Bit of like back to basics marketing too, you know, like what are the old ways people used to get people excited and finding out about their products? But to be determined.

I think it's cyclical with like, I know Gary Vee has a bit about this with like trading cards. It's like every next generation they like become cool again. That's why like people who are collectors, they're able to like withstand these like markets where it's like, oh, these things are crashing. I think it's similar with just like marketing tactics. It's like people just get like burned out by certain ones, so it's like go back to the basics and try these. And you just have to continue to evolve and stay ahead of the curve.

Totally.

I think that's the biggest thing that I think you guys do a great job with, given they have a very lean team, is like your ability to adapt is very impressive, um, with like trends that are going on. But I think another question I have for you is like, from a personal development perspective, like, what do you do to learn and to educate and to improve as an individual?

Yeah, I mean, my mental health has been a big part of that. So we talked a lot about, you know, therapy and just taking care of myself. A lot has come from it. Um, I think staying connected with the network that I've, you know, built over these 6 years. I went from working in tech, knowing literally nothing about food, to having so many contacts in this space and, and beyond food, you know, folks like you, Ben, who, um, touch food but not totally working in a food business. So it's just been really cool to grow that network and, um, enjoy reading. I mean, I try to just keep things varied and not be so like one lane anymore. Like, for example, I think I read my first fiction book last year since I was like in high school.

Still haven't done it.

Yeah, like I was totally like, I exclusively read, you know, business help books and, um, all, all the stuff, all the professional development books and stuff. And then I felt like, um, yeah, I could be benefited from like opening up my lens a little bit. And what if I read something that was like just for fun? So yeah, I'm kind of on the like, how could I give myself a break from being too, you know, what am I, what am I learning today? But yeah, it's a, it's a journey.

After, after like a long week, say, I mean, it's almost Friday afternoon. Um, you've been focused on like media buying. You had a hell of a week with Meta. Like, what do you do to— you mentioned some of your like non-negotiables.

Sure.

What do you immediately do? 6 PM Friday, you're logging off, um, to, I don't know, put you in a state where you can— sorry, where you can not recharge but just take some time for yourself.

Um, yeah, 4 PM. But my, uh, so funny, um, my husband and I moved to East Texas recently, and my grandpa's out there. He's like 93, an absolutely amazing Scottish man who still plays golf. He's very active, so we wanted to go and, you know, be close to him and soak up this time. So we've been playing golf. This has been like a really big stress reliever for me and just something super fun to get into. My family has always loved to golf, but, um, not living in a golf community, I never really got into it. And now we live somewhere where there's, um, 3 courses and it's just— it's a blast. So yeah, fitting in some golf on the weekend's been a big one. Uh, take baths. I like, you know, try and get my zen in. Do some yoga, all the normal things, a lot of those habits, you know, making sure that it sticks. It's not a Monday through Friday only, those are Saturday and Sunday as well.

So, but you find pleasure in those habits being like activities of choices, like of choice, not like things I have to do. They've become things you want to do.

Yeah, it's like fulfilling too, self-fulfilling cycle, because it's like, oh, when I meditate, I feel better. Oh, when I do my exercises, like, I feel better. Oh, when I, you know, I'm getting the sunshine, I feel better. So yeah, those really like keep me excited to do it. I don't feel like it's a chore. I feel like it's a, it's like taking a shower, you know? Like nobody has to force you to take a shower. You're like, I don't wanna smell. I feel the same way. Like I don't want my mental health to smell. So taking care of myself is really important. Feel much more at peace with it now than I did when I first started the company. Had that kind of pressure, even the, like I posted on LinkedIn about this recently. Uh, it was like a Wednesday at like 1:00 PM and I left to go play a round of golf with my papa. And I posted a picture of he and I and I was like, I wouldn't have posted this like a couple years ago. I felt like I would've been judged for like taking off and not grinding away and working and working. And like, I'm a more effective operator today than I was, you know, a year ago, 2 years ago. So, um, I, it's just a real testament to like what can happen when you take care of yourself and you can really bring yourself to the table and get what you need to get done in a shorter period of time, being really efficient rather than like, "Oh, I know I'm going to be grinding it out here till like 8:00 PM." And then all of a sudden, like you filled a day till 8:00 PM, like you can do it. But if you stop yourself earlier, you know you only have this time, you get really focused on what the priorities are and you jam them out and then you play some golf.

So does the 4:00 PM rule hold true in the household or is this just a Kelsey rule?

Uh, it's mostly a Kelsey Rule. Um, yeah, Iz is more like a 6 PM, but it gives me some time. Like, I'm the cook in the house, he's the dish man, so we get a good balance. Um, so I'll cook dinner and stuff and kind of get some head start on that too. So yeah, mostly Kelsey Rule. And by nature of our roles, you know, like the marketing side of things and the sales side, a little more flexible on my time than like the Costco order is about to go out and like he needs to be on the line with the co-packer because some stuff just happened, or he needs to to be, you know, sourcing whatever materials. And, oh, this freight company's calling right now. He has a lot more of the, like, it's now on the phone. You're gonna love this too. If you've ever called me, my voicemail says, hi, this is Kelsey. I no longer check voicemails. If you're looking to get in touch with me, contact me at—

and you know that I don't even make it to the end of your voicemail because you have do not disturb on. So the first time I call, I don't even pick the phone up to my ear because I have to, like, go to the second call to actually get through to her.

Yeah, so it's a whole new world, you know. I just feel like People forget how much control you have over your communication methods if you're able. Again, this is like if you're in a position where you are able to. Again, Is handles the like emergency phone call stuff. So I know I'm okay that if anyone I work with needs me, they know they can text me and I'll like see it right away. But yeah, I just, my phone explodes with calls. I get like, like 30 calls a day from all this, you know, my number gets out for different sales people and stuff. So it would, I would never work if I answered my phone every time it rang. So you just kind of got to like find your channels and funnel people where you want to take them and then come up with your own system to handle it.

Yeah, yeah. I like your note about weaving in like golf on a Wednesday. I think something that I'm not good at that I'm actively working on— here's a good take here— is like the kind of similar to like a yo-yo diet, right? Of like you're strict for 5 days and then yeah, from Friday night to Sunday you— yeah, burgers, you eat cookies, um, and it's something I've, I've always been bad at since I was a kid of like go hard and then you blow off steam or something. And increasingly it's so hard to like not try to make every day look the same, but weaving in things like not just, okay, I'll do yoga on Saturday morning or something like weaving that in. And then if you need to work on the weekend, that's okay too. Ideally not. But yeah, walk me through that process of like how you started to weave things in instead of being like, I'm sprinting for 5 days and then maybe I'll, and then maybe I'll go golfing.

You just do it. You just do it. Yeah. I'm gonna be like Shia LaBeouf, start screaming. But you do, you just do it. Like, I started treating it like a meeting, even lunch. Like when I first came back from the kind of breakdown, needed to get reset, I put lunch on as an actual meeting on my calendar. There's no like, no, I can't take a meeting at 12 o'clock cuz that's when I eat lunch. So 12 to 1 is literally just blocked every Monday through Friday on my calendar. So there's no, oh no, I got a meeting booked over it. I won't eat today. Like I just don't take meetings over that time. And so the same goes for like if I'm gonna play golf on a certain day or we're gonna go to the driving range. I block it on my calendar. So there's not like a, you know, put a little buffer for travel to and from or whatever you need to do. But if you block it and you treat it like a meeting, like it's something you need to do for yourself, then it's on there and you'll make it happen.

I think a big— for me, a lot of it stems from the trust I have with my co-founders. Like if there's one thing we don't do, it's question each other's work ethic. Like I know how hard both of them work all the time, like always on 24/7. So like when one of them's like, oh, I'm going golfing and it's 2 PM on a Thursday, I genuinely have never even thought twice about it. Like, why isn't he working?

Yeah.

And I have that same mutual respect, which makes it really nice. Cuz when you're working for a company or something, you're like stressed out when you tried to do something during the day.

Totally.

But for me now, like I, I can plug and play things during the week and I don't even think twice about it. I think it's just making sure you maintain that trust with your co-founders. And for me, because we operate with such an ex execution-oriented mindset, like, I don't really give a shit how you get your work done as long as we know that it's getting done, right? Like, I, I also hate the notion, um, of having to work 80-hour weeks. I think there's something to be said about efficiency. Of course, inherently, the more you work, like, theoretically you should get more done. There are diminishing returns at a certain point. Yeah, but I know many, I know many people who work like 30 to 40 hours a week who get a hell of a lot further than people who are working 50 to 60 and are happier and feel like they have more life. Yes.

Yeah.

Across all the different categories. And I think that's still something that I struggle with. I've gotten better at it, but with my friends who come from like the banking and consulting world, we're like, oh, I put in like 110-hour week and I'm like, I only work 37 hours this week. Like I'm lacking, I'm doing something wrong. And I, I realize that it's— you don't count the hours you work. You have to count like the tangible things you actually got done to like move your business forward.

What's the output? And it can vary. Like there's seasons for each business too. I found one thing I really had to train myself on with Dope was like being like— it's like a wave, you know, being okay when the wave is down and it's not so crazy to like take it a little easier and play the golf on Wednesday and all this. Because I know just around the corner something's gonna hit the fan, things are gonna be crazy, website breaks, something something. Not anymore because we use Flatter. Hey, but you know, like we used to have those kind of like oh shit moments that are gonna come. And so when it was calmer, I could be a little easier on myself to say like, take advantage of this because it's about to be batshit again. You know, in a few weeks something's gonna happen again. So that's hard to remember as a founder when it's like down and you're like, okay, well I just need to keep, you know, I need to fill the time and keep working. But it's like, no, take advantage of this that nothing's on fire right now and you really could take care of yourself a little more to build up for when the next push is.

It's even fascinating cuz we actually feel that on a more micro level within our company cuz like in Q4, mm-hmm, like our sales and marketing efforts are very minimal because it's busy season for D2C brands. But like our product and engineering team are like fully swamped making sure that like things are going smoothly for our brands because the last thing we can afford is to have like a malfunction in their busy season. So it's like interesting you say that because we have those ebb and flows within the organization. It's for us, it's not like a company thing where it's busy for everyone, not busy for everyone. And so that goes back to the trust piece where I know that like other seasons, like my technical co-founder is probably going to take vacation and take time off. Because I know in the middle of like busy season when like me and our sales team are taking a little bit more easy, he's definitely not.

Yeah.

Um, and so I think it all comes full circle when it— when you have trust within each other.

Yeah.

At, um, for context, I run a content agency, and so we're client-facing, right? And so I'd say like 75% of the time it's just focusing on serving existing clients, making sure they're happy, and then you have to completely switch and sell into new segments, or hey, we want to move into enterprise, or we want to move more into a fintech market and start serving them. And those, those seasons are so real because there's always a sprint of we're moving into a new fintech vertical right now, more like enterprise focused. And for some reason we've got some intros and like 20 clients, potential clients reach out and you're doing all these calls and you're trying to close these deals and whatever happens. And then all of a sudden it slows down and you're like, what am I gonna do?

Yeah.

And then you realize, I'm like, I have 20 customers I need to make as happy as possible and do well by them. And yeah, the seasons analogy is too real.

Yeah, every day comes and goes. So, and it's hard for staff, you know, you talked about the teams being different. I remember when we did have, uh, two full-time employees working, um, one director of operations, one was a director of marketing, and we had spoken to them about removing, you know, email from their phones and Slack from their phones to try and help like, let's ease things down. And they were like anxious as ever about it. Like they couldn't bear the idea of removing it from their phones. And the same goes for like taking time off or all these things. Like, I guess corporate America, they had come from corporate backgrounds and like it really has ingrained this crazy work ethic in people where they feel like they, if they take time off, like they're gonna fail, or if they don't respond to something right away, like it's gonna be bad. So it's sometimes it's like the co-founder side, you were saying how you really trust your co-founders. It's funny to like, how do you help get that same trust like shared with the employees? Because like they have to believe it too, you know, they have to know that you really do trust them. We always said that like, it doesn't matter what hours you guys are working, doesn't matter like how many days, how many hours, all these things going in, like the output, like I'll know if you're doing the job and that's what really matters. But it's hard to get that like mental change for people who have always worked in that mentality of like, it's about the number of hours I put in, not my output.

Yeah, I want to shift gears into something we mentioned just because it's something that hits close to home with me, but the, the concept of therapy. Like, I think it's— I still think there's a stigma around it. Um, I'd be curious to hear how that's helped you and maybe some perspective shifts you had, because I think there's probably a ton of founders out there who don't do it who could definitely be doing it. Uh, really, to have like when you're the founder, like the buck stops with you, right? When you have investors, advisors, employees. Like for me, the, the aha moment for me was when I like realized a long while ago that like we were putting food on the table for like the families of our employees. And there's times where that can be a lot of responsibility. And I never realized that like therapy can be that thing where you have someone who isn't in that relationship with you that you can just like openly talk to. Would love to hear like the different ways that that's helped shift your perspective on life.

Totally. Like, do you think it's good that a professional athlete has like a physical therapy person, you know, to help work through, right? Their muscles are their thing. Like if they need those to perform at the highest level, they're gonna have, they pay all sorts of people to rub and do all the things that they need to make them top notch. Like for us as founders, like it's our brain, like it's up here and it's like how we're feeling and like our emotional and mental state is what will make the business successful or not. So the idea that like, oh, therapy's like stupid or who needs it? It's only if you're broken. It's like, we all need it. Like I would say a normal person should already go to therapy just cuz like life has trauma and everyone's childhood wasn't perfect. So it'd be great to get into therapy. But as a founder, it's like, it's like an absolute must-do, you know, you can even look at like executive coaching as like an optional layer on top of that. But I just think like therapy is a, a must. The amount of pressure you have, the weight that's on your shoulders, uh, the, cost of failure, I mean, it would crush any normal person. And so if you try to get through every day just dealing with yourself and letting it kind of bottle up, um, it's too much, you know, it's too much for any one person. So little things on your own, like journaling, can be really helpful. Sometimes challenging for individuals who suffer with anxiety because you're sort of like letting yourself spin on the paper, but that coupled with, you know, a professional therapist that can help you through the day-to-day and also like unpack why you're responding to certain situations in a certain way and like how you can bring a more level head to, you know, your company and what you're trying to build. It's just, it's a game changer and, uh, it's like saved so many things in my life for sure. Yeah.

I think that's a fitting place to stop given all the things you've been able to build and how it's empowered you to do so. Kelsey, I really appreciate you coming on with us today.

It was so fun. It was so awesome.

Do you wanna let people know where they can find you and what you're working on?

Yes, I would love that. So if you're looking to get some Dope, you can go to dope.com. It's like dough with a P on the end. Uh, we ship nationwide and we've also got a grocery locator on there. So you can check out, uh, Dope in more than 1,000 grocery stores. So see if we're in your neighborhood, go pop in your zip and check it out. Please connect with us on social media. We're @dope. Uh, get on the newsletter and all that stuff. As we talked about earlier, it'd be awesome to have you. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you.

Thank you so much. Have a dope day.