#008: Jess Cervellon - The Argument for Trusting Your Intuition & Natural Instincts

world and creator CPG, right? Like, you can acquire those customers all day long, all fucking day long. But if you have a shitty product or you're not listening to your customers or you're not like doing product development, you will lose those customers.

Jess Servellan is the VP of Customer Experience at Feastables, based in Chicago. Jess is obsessed with helping brands create CX strategies to build customer-centric cultures that drive trust and loyalty from day one. In this episode, we cover the importance of making decisions while trusting your intuition and instincts, why Jess left her corporate job to take a risk in the startup ecosystem, and her argument for pushing through discomfort to reach outsized success. Welcome back to episode 8 of the Turning Pro Podcast. We have Jess Servian from Feastables joining us today. Thanks for joining, Jess.

Thanks for having me, Ben Sharf.

So I met Jess a few months ago, and my first thought is just, I love her energy. She's just unapologetically herself, which I think is amazing because not many people are like that. And so I think that was what attracted me to wanting to sit down and have a conversation with you, is just like the authenticity and how you treat your relationships. Um, and I think that's where I want to start with this conversation, is like when you think about managing your relationships, like what, what's important to you?

I think the biggest thing, top priority, is like showing up as yourself. I don't I don't think you have— you should be a fake person in this world. I'm sorry. Like, I also— sorry, can I curse? Yeah, yeah, of course. Okay, good.

That clip is gonna be on the podcast.

Yeah. Okay, let's repeat that one more time then. No, we're rolling. I think that you should show up as a fucking real person. Like, straight up, just be who the fuck you are. Because at the end of the day, like, why walk into a room and be like this generic-ass person who says these generic-ass answers. You don't get anywhere in that, in your life that way, right? And people don't trust you when you act that way too. And I've been in relationship building career for so long that I've played the, the safe way, I've played the medium way, and then in the last few years I just like to show up like who I am and call it a day. I'm never gonna be rude. I'm never gonna be rude to somebody. Even if somebody is rude to me, I will be nice back, but I will set a boundary. That's, that's the rudest I will go. But I like to show up in every conversation real as fuck.

Yeah, I think that, I think that makes, makes a ton of sense. And when you think about like the, the world you come from of CX, your, your job and your profession is driven off of relationships with people. Yeah, right. So I think when you like build relationships with people, like for you, how do you think about like that give and take? In relationships. I think something for me that I've talked about a lot with him is around this notion of like, I don't want my relationships to be transactional. I think there's some relationships where it, it stops at a certain point, but like, yeah, the people that are closest to me are the ones where like I can do a million things for them and I won't actually think about it because I know if I need them to show up for me at one point or open a door for me or something, they will do it.

Yeah, well, I, I think every relationship has its Boundaries though. I think that's the best way to put it. Right. So it's like in a professional world, you can't be everybody for every person. Right. But I have like homies in my life that I've met like maybe once or twice, you know, and maybe worked on a project together. Maybe you're a client, like whatever it is that I'm like, damn dog. Like I would be your best friend forever. I will give you the shirt off my back. Like, oh, you're sick. Like I'm coming to wherever you are to like help you. Right. Those like, so the same thing, I share that sentiment of like, all right, I'm like. I will be down for you. But I also think that there are relationships in this world too that are a little bit draining, and you have to be able to like kind of recognize that even like the professional world of like, all right, this client to maybe vendor relationship, right? Like there are a lot of vendors that I have become friends with. There's plenty of like brands like Postscript, for instance. Like I love those guys. They're like Alex Beller, homie for life, right? But then there's other vendors that I've worked with and I'm like, hmm, you really just see me as like a dollar, which I understand that I get that, that like we're all here to like make money, right? But like, you're not— you're not actually getting to know me. You're not actually like researching anything about who I am or my brand or what I do. Right. And so I— that's my— that's my only point, though, is like you can show up authentic as yourself. Like to whatever relationships, your friendships, your partnerships, your business relationships. But every relationship does have a bit of a boundary and you have to kind of recognize that. And, and you can't always be like, okay, I'm going to give you everything, show up authentically, but like maybe don't give them the shirt off your back every day.

Yeah, no, that makes, that makes a ton of sense. I think the other thing I want to touch on with you is while you are doing CX at Feastables, you are a woman of many Many talents and many hats.

In French.

What, uh, like, what, what drives you? Like, why do you wake up in the morning and what— why do you give 110%?

I, I mean, it kind of comes back to like a little bit of relationship building, but also just like customer experience, right? Like, I am so passionate about customer experience, and not the support side of it, like the evolution of it, how we can build relationships with our customers, whether it's a product, a service, it doesn't matter. It's like, it's all relationship building, right? And that like drives me so much. But I I also think that there's like very outdated practices of customer experience where you're only thinking of it as customer support and as these people just are ticket takers. You're not thinking about the relationship building, you're not thinking about the retention. So like I'm telling you that portion of it because I'm so passionate about customer experience, right? So yes, like I work at Feastables, that is like my full-time job. But in addition to that, I'm also doing consulting on the side because I am trying to be at the forefront of customer experience. I'm to delve that into other brands, other people's practices. I'm trying to like help other people like understand those concepts and that philosophy. And so then that, that customer experience as a business practice can continue down. So, you know, today I again work at Feastables, but I also am consult— I'm consulting on the side. I'm a fractional CX leader. I also— one of my consulting projects that I'm doing is mentorship and people leadership with a CX manager and like getting them to start thinking about like that CX philosophy and getting them to push that into their business and like being able to like stand up like this dope customer experience for their own brand. And then the other things that I do is I also have my own podcast called Oopsie Podcast. So and that's a huge passion project of mine that I, that, that I love so much. So I know I'm telling you all the things that I do, but like that Overall, it's really driving the practice of customer experience to other businesses and really trying to change other people's mindset of what they think of experience as a whole.

Yeah. Every day you get up and you only have a certain amount of hours to spend.

Mm-hmm.

And so whether it's consulting, whether it's full-time gig at Feastables, stuff you've done in the past, even outside of work, just friends that you spend time with.

Yeah.

Like us deciding to spend our Fridays doing this. Versus working or doing other consulting or whatever each of us could be doing.

Yeah.

That's not here right now. How do you, how do you decide how to spend those hours and with who? Is it a gut instinct of, I like your energy, I want to turn this friendship into a consulting relationship? Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, you can take that anywhere you want.

Yeah. I mean, I used to pick up like every consulting project for just to like do it. Right. Um, and actually just the other day, like I had, I had a, a phone call and just the, the vibes were off. Like, I'll be real with you, the vibes were like off. And I was like, I don't, I can't see myself diving into this relationship because I feel like it would be draining for me. So yes, it is a little bit of like going back to relationship building and like having boundaries around like the projects that I do decide to do. I mean, most of the time, like I will vibe with people, but like if the vibes are off, that is a red flag and that is a box of red flags, right? So, you know, maybe not. But, um, so like that's what I do in like consulting, but then like just day to day, I'll be honest with you. Probably gonna get a lot of heat for this one, but I just have like that hustle mentality of just constantly wanting to see what's around the corner, wanting to do like the next thing that I'm constantly doing a lot of different projects or spending time with people. My mom was that same way. I mean, when I was growing up, my mom was a nurse and she was brilliant, but she worked 4 different jobs, right? So it's like I have that kind of ingrained in me and like that, it, that is a little bit of my drive. So, you know, where I spend my 24 hours is I do get my 8 hours of sleep. I spend time with my friends or my family or my boyfriend. But if you are going to drain me in any sort of way, whether it's a business way or a personal relationship way, I'm probably not gonna jam out with you. And I will have a boundary around my time and like not do that. I try to vacation sometimes. But you know, it's a little hard.

Yeah, no, I can relate to that, definitely. And then it's like, if I go to a beach like 3 days later, I'm like, all right, like I need to like get back to whatever it is.

Oh my God.

Today is our vacation.

Yeah, this is our vacation. And then I'm like, oh, like once this is done, I'm gonna go open my Slack and my email and like have the list of the things I need to do.

I mean, I was at a WeWork right before this, like, yeah. Do do do do do.

But it's all part of the journey. I think one of the questions I have for you, and like, this is why the name of the podcast is Turning Pro. It's thinking about those moments in your life where you decide to like elevate yourself and become a professional in whatever that means— personal relationships, so on and so forth. Like, for you, were there any moments in your life where you realize, okay, like it's time to take things to the next level? I think as someone who you identify with as being like a yes man, to like get on a phone with a potential client and say no, like I think that's a huge moment for you where you, you hold yourself to like a new standard.

Yeah.

What are those things or moments that have happened in your life where you're like, all right, it's time to like level up here?

Man, this is gonna go really deep really fast, I think. But, um, I think for me, you know, going like always being the yes, always doing the yes yes yes, but then I've also have been really burned in my life too. I've been told, you know, oh, like, you're— you won't make it in your career and you're too rough around the edges, or whatever it was, right? So it's like, like being told no is what has like caused me to like continue and keep going. But I think also not, not just that, like everything that you do, every job that you do, every project you're working on, every conversation you're having, like that is an opportunity to gain a new skill, right? And so like, you know, when I first got out of college, I was— I went to art school and like I didn't really know what I was doing. And like I knew that I really liked people and I like progressed my career in like many different phases of like what that relationship building type of role was. I've like worked in the travel industry, I worked in many very various startups, like all these things, but all of those things were like opportunities for me. And so like when things kind of like maybe get bad at a job or on a project or whatever it is, it's really changing your mindset to think like, all right, what can I learn from this and what skills and, and opportunities can I take to maybe the next thing? But then also like in a way, and this is what I was saying is going to go deep really fast, is like following your gut. When your intuition is telling you no, maybe you should trust your intuition and like trust that the universe will like have your back, right? Like, I, I mean, even recently I have felt like— actually, let's not even recently, let's just go back to the beginning of when I started at Feastables, right? I was working at a startup, and I was working at a startup, it was a health tech startup, and I was super excited when I had joined. And I was super excited, but like I was bamboozled in the interview process. Like I was told one thing, but I didn't peel back the onion enough and like ended up finding out. I was like, oh, this might not be a company for me. And then I quickly was like, all right, like I'm sticking it out. I'm like doing the jams, whatever. And then like the company like ended up pivoting and then just like wasn't doing well. And I was like, they're like after a year, like at this point I'm like, all right, it's time to go and like maybe find something else. Right. So. All right, so I'm like searching for new jobs, doing all these jams, whatever. I get another position, health tech again. But in my, in my gut, I was like, man, I really want to try D2C. I want to do something different in the startup world, not just SaaS, right? And I kind of like spoke that into the universe. And I had actually accepted this, this position at this like startup, and I got an interview, like some, like a recruiter reached out to me on LinkedIn, was like, hey, do you want to interview for this role at Feastables? Like they're looking for like a head of customer experience. And it was like, okay, one, the universe was like, bam, here, here's an opportunity, right? So then, you know, I, I kind of go through the interview process. I don't start this health tech company, but then I, and I end up getting like the job at Feastables and I had to like weigh, I had to weigh out like, do I continue down the path of SaaS, of everything that I know every single day? Like I know how to do customer success, customer support for a product, like a SaaS product, right? Or do I go down a path of learning something really new that I don't know anything about, but I can like use this as an opportunity to learn a new skill and, and get out of my safety net, right? And I chose the path of not knowing shit about shit. I mean, I, I knew some things, you know what I mean? I knew the, like, the premise of like CX and like what we were doing and all these things, right? But I didn't know anything about consumer packaged goods. Everything that I know today is like something like I have learned, right? But that was honestly, yes, it was like very logical brain, but it was also a lot of like intuition, trusting and trusting myself that like I can go down this path and like jam out and be successful at this.

I love the, like, trusting your intuition. At least for me in the past when I've made a decision and if the decision I make ends up being the wrong one or doesn't work out, like, I can live with myself. Yeah, because like, I trusted the decision that I made and I'm like, I'm— you can't look back. Like, you can only look forward. But on the reverse, if you do something where in your gut you're like, I shouldn't do that, and then it doesn't work out, you're like, fuck, I knew it all along. Like, I shouldn't have done this.

I mean, think about it. Like, sorry, I'm like Bogarting, like, all of this, like, talk time now because you got me started. But I mean, think about it though. Like, think about it even like And just like anything, like, not even in businesses, right? Like, there are times that we— you're like, your, your gut is like, this does not feel right. And if you would have crossed the street, maybe you would have like just missed the car or gotten hit by the car, right? Like, there are plenty of like times in my life, or people even, like, where I'm like, this person is like not a good person. Like, there's something wrong with this. And then they turn out to be like a really shitty person, right? Because it's happened, right? But I, but like, I think every— trusting your gut, yes, for sure. But also like every opportunity where it's like maybe you were right about that but you didn't trust yourself, you still learn something, right? So it's like applying that— exactly what you're saying though, you're applying that to like your business nature as well. Like you're like, damn, all right, maybe that didn't work out for me, but I learned some skills, I got new opportunities. Right.

Are there, are there any specific— let me frame it like this. What would you advise people that it doesn't really matter what age you are, but you've entered some situation where maybe you're not bamboozled, but I can definitely speak to like I've had some— worked at like a fund that I kind of knew day one wasn't for me, but like for a number of reasons, you need the money. It seems good on the outside, maybe a good brand. I mean, even consulting, right? Like I would I think we would both be very unhappy if we worked at Bain. But some people want to do it for the logo or the safety or need the money, whatever it is. When you have that gut feeling of, I know something is wrong here, but maybe outwardly you're not fucking miserable, what would you recommend people do?

Oh, man, dude, I don't know if I even have a recommendation because I can tell you straight up that there have been times where I'm like, things feel on fire in my body, but I'm going to still go forward, right? And then you're like, 2 weeks later, like, damn, I was right. I was totally right about that. You know, I, I mean, I don't really have the best advice. Like, I'm going to be honest with you because like, I think by nature so many of us don't necessarily trust our gut all the time. Like sometimes we're very strayed away by logic of like, oh, I need this money or, oh, I need this thing. I think my only advice really is going back to what I keep saying is Even if you never trusted your gut, chalk it up to something that you've, you've learned a lesson from. Like you lived and you learned and you laughed about it, you know, because like, and even, and then if you just trust your gut, cool, sick. Then trust yourself at that point. Right? Like, but I don't, I don't really have a clear answer for that because like I have fucked up many a times in my life, but I've like taken all of those things as an opportunity to learn some shit.

Yeah. I think in our minds we build the consequences up to be so scary of like, hey, if I leave this thing, like you leaving your job, like 12 hours before you're about to start. I think, I mean, A, that's very bold, but I think a lot of people in your position would have been like, oh shit, like I'm going to be in so much trouble. They're going to be mad at me. They're going to hate me. Everything's going to be ruined. And I talk to friends about this all the time who like hate their current job.

Yeah.

And I'm like, well, Why don't you leave? And I get, we hang out with entrepreneurial people and so it's different, but I always tell them that and they're like, well, no, for X, Y, and Z reasons. It's like, trust yourself that in 2 weeks you're gonna at least have like 5 opportunities in front of you or at least be on the road to doing those things. So tell me from your experience, like, how have you, I don't know, tried to like reduce the stakes in your mind of like, hey, it's not the end of the world if this isn't perfect.

Okay, man, I really think this episode is going to be all about going really deep into, like, the universe and, like, intuition, because, like, straight up, I, I really think your life changes every 2 weeks. And I know this is going to sound really crazy, right? But, like, think about it. 2 weeks ago, I don't know, what were you doing? Did you have, like, some big problem or were you like, have a thought and you were like, oh, like, this is like my whole world and this sucks, right? Or this was really great, whatever. And then 2 weeks later, like, something else happens, right? I can tell you right now, like 2 weeks ago I was like, oh God, like so scared about like, um, you know, taking on more clients and if I could do these things, right? So like, I just strongly believe that like your life changes every 2 weeks. That's my point, right? So it's like in like the decision-making process, there's a little bit of like that intuition. There's a little bit of that like universe thing, right? Where I think that, all right, my life changes every 2 weeks. So it's like no matter what, like like there will be like something else here. But then like in cases where I'm like, oh, like I maybe need to leave a job, or you know, maybe this project isn't right for me, I go through a decision-making process of like, how does this affect my mental health? How does this affect my boundaries? And if it comes down to like a money situation, then what do I have in my savings? What are my resources? And And to be honest with you, and I think this is my thought process, but I always think when I'm like super, super scared to do anything, and like whether it's leaving a job and like venturing into the unknown, and I don't know if I have money, I'm always like, well, the worst that happens, I can DoorDash and I can drive for Uber. Like, there's like— I truly believe that like there's always an opportunity to like make some sort of funds if you need to. You might have to cut back. I can't be like super bougie with my fringe jacket, you I mean, but like, I would, I would rather cut back, uh, than suffer for my mental health, for, um, you know, being in maybe a company that doesn't respect me, like whatever those, those things are. Or not, maybe not even just like, like mental health and like respect me, but like also like I'd rather take the risk than not know it all. So it's like, so hopefully like that decision-making process is a little bit logical and a little bit like woo-woo.

I think one of the quotes that I live my life by is that regret hurts a lot more than failure.

Yeah.

And I think it's, it's easy to just say that, and it's another thing to actually do it. And I can tell you that, again, you already know this, but like, the giving up the corporate job was far and away like the scariest decision I have— I thought it was the scariest decision I ever made in my life because it was an absolute career trajectory change from the perspective of like the job itself, the financial stability, all the dominoes that would fall after doing so. I think, uh, a lot of people never get to the point of making one hard decision ever, and then they just avoid it like for a long time. And that's when you get in this period of like comfortableness.

Yeah.

Because you're scared of that first one. Once you make one hard decision, you're like, it's actually not that bad. And you learn to be able to do it all the time. And then that's where I think you start to push the boundaries and like do new things and try new things and see outsized growth. However you define growth, is when you're willing to go against the grain and go against popular opinion.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, sorry, I just, there was like one other thing that came to me. Um, when I worked at my very, very first startup, it was like, okay, actually going even a step further. Sorry, now you got me talking. Um, so before I even entered that startup, I was also working in like corporate America and I was like actually making like really good money for my age. Like in corporate America was actually like travel agent. I was a corporate travel agent, so it was like I had a a very base salary of like $45K and everything else was commission. But I was like living in Los Angeles, I was like living it up, single gal, like doing the jams, right? And I was making close to $200,000 a year, right? But that's like basically— it was sales, it's commission, right? And then I had this opportunity to go to a startup, another travel and expense startup, and everybody thought I was fucking crazy. They were like, why would you do this? Like, you've been in this company for 5 years, like you're so successful. Like, I mean, I was like President's Club, like doing all these things. I was like top of my game. And I was like, I know, but like something is telling me, one, to go home to San Francisco, and two, to take this risk because it's going to have a reward, right? And, and it ended up having a great reward because I was like one of the first startups that I worked at. And now I've had, you know, I've worked at 5 startups at this point, and I have this like great career and like this like scrappy psycho thing about startups, but, you know, whatever. But the biggest, the biggest thing that's always stuck with me from that, like, transition period from corporate America to startup life is somebody once told me, you have to go through the discomfort to get to the comfort. Had I never, like, taken myself out of that comfort and gone and, like, pressed through and gone through that discomfort, I wouldn't be me anywhere in my life today. And, and I applied that saying to literally every time a project gets hard, or every time something gets hard in life, like relationships, whatever it is. You always have to go through the discomfort to get to the comfort, because your life changes every 2 weeks anyway.

I love that. Life changes every 2 weeks. Just be ready for the next path.

I mean, yeah.

Um, I want to shift gears here a little bit. Uh, I have a huge interest in the creator world. I always have. You work at one of the— I would say one of the craziest, just like celebrity CPG companies. Uh, in my past life at GoPuff, I remember when we would like do campaigns with Feastables and it would just like break the infrastructure when like Jimmy would post on like his YouTube video about like go buy a chocolate bar, whatever it might be.

Yeah, I want to get your perspective on like how you just think about CPG and then like celebrity CPG and where you see like the big differences Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, truthfully, at the end of the day, CPG, whether you're a creator brand or, you know, a regular brand, you're selling a product, right? Your product must go through innovations. Your product must go through feedback. It must go to the market, market test, like all of these things, right? So, you know, I think on both sides, you can never get comfortable with being like, okay, great, I've acquired all these customers and I've done all these things, but like, how are you taking care of your customers? How are you getting them? Getting them to come back? Are you, you know, listening to them, listening to their feedback? Are you going through like R&D? Like, are you testing things? Like, all of this stuff, right? So like, that's how I think about like CPG as a whole. I think that you constantly have to like make new iterations to be at the top of your game, right? And then when it comes to like the creator world though in CPG— so this is something that's always ruffled my feathers. You know how they say like, oh, you have these core moments? I have this one core moment when I entered a network and I was like, oh, I'm Jess, I'm from Feastables, blah, blah, blah. Somebody was like, oh, that's an easy acquisition channel. And I was like, let me tell you, my friends, this— and this is exact— and this is exactly where I'm going with this is like in the creator world and creator CPG, right? Like you can acquire those customers all day long, all fucking day long. But if you have a shitty product or you're not listening to your customers or you're not like doing product development, you will lose those customers. Like, bottom line. So you can acquire and you will have like massive acquisition. But how are you thinking of retention? How are you thinking about retention? Not just from a marketing campaign. How are you truly thinking about your customer and completely and continuing to develop? So developing your product, developing your content on your website, developing like innovative ways to like market to them, right? I mean, I'm not going to go into this. I told you this. Conversation might lead to this, but like, you know, in a CX perspective, a customer experience perspective, I'm thinking about the creator customer as, all right, cool, you've gotten here. How do I keep you? And how I can control that in my house is how do I make interactions and engagement with me really fun and giving you a piece of that creator pie? Like, because really you're— this customer really just comes through because they want a piece of that creator pie. That's ultimately like why they're there, right? They just want a slice of it. So how do you give them that slice? And whether that's like an Easter egg on your website or an always-on chatbot or a humanized experience with your, your support agents, like, or even just a personalization of an email, right? How do you, how are you constantly thinking about how you're going to retain them and give them a piece of that creator Pie.

I'm curious, there's, okay, you are clearly an expert at what you do. We've talked about this offline, even before you came on. Um, you were like, hey, I want to lean in here because you were very much like at the top of the game within your specific domain expertise. But I'm curious, even for you, um, was there a moment where we, we call this like podcast Turning Pro because of different levels to the game and different levels of commitment to get to that next level. So I'm curious for you, was there, like we're talking now and it's clear that you're at the top, but was there a moment that there were a couple different avenues or directions you could go and you said, no, I want to double down here because I really care about people. I really care about CX and I think it's damn interesting because clearly you do. Were there any moments there where you recommitted?

You mean at Feastable specifically or in my career?

I'd say CX more generally.

Yeah. More broadly. I think that I recommitted honestly when I switched from SaaS to D2C because it— because— and here's why, right? So in SaaS, CX is considered like customer success and customer support, but it's very, in a way, transactional, right? It's very like, it's very transactional and like, yes, of course you can relationship build and you can do all these things, but then like people are coming to you because maybe like a feature is not working or, or, you know, in the success side of it, like maybe they're up for renewal or they want a new feature or whatever. It is, right? It's very transactional. It's like, it's not like as fun. I wouldn't say it's not as fun. Like my friends are gonna kill me for saying that, but like, I, I think it's when I switched over to D2C, it's more about a brand experience and like it's more about those hidden Easter eggs in your relationship and it's like the content creation for your customer or it's it's about doubling down on like that relationship in like a chatbot, right? Like, and like having an always-on experience that also maybe converts your, your browser person, your looker, to an actual buyer, right? It's like the relationship building is just a little bit different. And I think, and again, goes back to like what I was saying, like I didn't know shit about shit when I entered D2C, right? So it's like everything that I learned today is like honestly semi-new in the last like 2 to 3 years, right? So it's been— so when you ask me like about recommitting, it's truly from like changing that pathway because it's seeing things from a different light. It's seeing things from the other side of the relationship building. And I think that— and I would love to even— I would love to even consult for a SaaS brand to apply these like brand relationship building practices into a product. Like just because I think that would be really fun and interesting and make it so much so just different. It would be about brand development rather than just being a transactional relationship.

I think the difference, and you could tell me if you disagree, is that in like it's the, it's the concept of want versus need. And a lot of SaaS relationships, like I'm engaging with vendors because I need their software. Like there's not— there's very few vendors who have like actually sold me on something who like I didn't think I needed. And then they tell tell me about it, I'm like, wow, you know what, I actually need that. Like, every time I— because I'm, I don't know, I like to think I'm a high-intent person. I'll get on a call with the salesperson, be like, I don't need the pitch, I just need to know the pricing. Like, we absolutely need this tool for these reasons.

Yeah.

Whereas like with Feastables, you don't need a chocolate bar. Like, there's no— you don't— it's not like if I don't get the chocolate bar, like, my body's gonna fail the way that like my business might fail if I don't get like a certain software that's causing a problem. And so your relationship is very different where you need to get someone to like you and want to come back to you, whereas on the software side you just need a product that works for them.

Yeah.

So I think like the type of relationship you have to build in D2C versus SaaS is so different in that sense.

Yeah, I think it's really different in like different stages of SaaS too, though. Like, and here's why.

Elaborate.

Because I was thinking to myself while you were saying that, I also in the beginning of this said like, okay, Postscript, love those dudes. Right? Like, love— I shouldn't say dudes— love that fam. Okay. But because they've done relationship building, but they're also a D2C SaaS company, right? So D2C SaaS is also a little bit different than like maybe health tech, right? You know, because it's like, it's kind of— it's like, it's a little bit different because it's like D2C SaaS or like e-com, whatever, is you have to be an extension of that brand. So you have to think about it in like a little bit of a brand experience way too, right? Like you have to think about it as like my client. Yes, they might need this product for this one particular reason, but like, how do I scale with them? How do I like if they're going to do something crazy with their brand and like, I don't know, Spectacle Marketing, right? How can I scale with them and make it fun and interesting to like partner together? I don't know, I don't know. I was just like kind of vibing in that.

But you know, it's, it's interesting because Adrian and I are both more in the— I mean, it's like we both work with, uh, software companies, but mine is more focused on consumer. So like, I, I'm in the commerce neighborhood where I work with D2C brands all day. He works a lot more with B2B SaaS companies, right? So like, I think he has the relationship very much where it's like black and white. Here's what I can do for you. Here's what you're doing, here's what you're not doing, and here's what the ROI is going to be.

Yeah.

But for me, it's more like I think the path to empathy is a little bit different just because of the world that they're playing in.

Yeah.

Versus the world that his customers play in.

Yeah. I just think it's just different. Sorry. I apologize.

Yeah. No, no, no. Jump in.

You're great.

I think the— I think what's interesting about what you said is that For every— for the best relationships, I mean, Samir from Habib, who's here, the guest before you on episode 7, we've just become friends and developed a relationship, but only off the fact that the first transaction of we do content and we drive results for you and we make it good and we have good deliverables, good communication. And as a client, they're paying us X amount of value for that transaction. That first transaction still is there and has to be ROI positive.

Mm-hmm.

And then you can develop a great relationship from there. Then you can become friends and all that fun stuff. Right. And we're, I would say, all quote relationship people that we actually become friends with the people we do work with. Uh, which you can't say the same for every industry, but I don't think you can ignore that like transaction part of the equation because that still needs to be damn good when you're working at Platter, when you're working with the brand. Um, That software needs to deliver X results and be part of X infrastructure and work this fast and this reliable. Mm-hmm. Right. If that's not there, sure, we can become friends, but we're gonna stop working together. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's actually a really good point because like, think about it, like if your software doesn't scale with the brand, right? Like exactly what I was just saying. Like then it's at some point you might have to leave and like, to be honest with you, most of the time. In like software relationships, you could be like the hottest client of theirs. But eventually that, that company has to keep bringing in other relationships, right? Because those clients will leave. Like, you know, like, I, I mean, I don't want to like say anything. I'm not saying I'm leaving anybody. Don't worry. But like, it's just, it's the natural evolution of it though, right? Like business objectives also change. You know, needs change and wants change, right? And so, you know, let's think about like SMS marketing, right? I know I'm like stuck on this like SMS marketing thing, but think about it, right? Like the evolution of SMS marketing today, it is one thing you're texting back and forth. Maybe you have a shortcode, maybe you have this, maybe you have that, right? But how do you— whatever tool you're using, how do you keep going? Like, how does that tool continuously evolve to speak to the rest of like two-way communication. So like AI is a big thing right now. How, how is our SMS marketing platforms going to instill AI? Because that's the hot shit right now, right? How are you going to— how are you going to offer different features that are just speaking to like what's on the market and not becoming stale? I don't know. I know I'm in a little bit of a rabbit hole because now we're all like talking about SaaS, but like Oh, we can go deep. Oh, we can go deep in it.

I think like, but don't you think the point you're making is the one that ultimately decides the companies that are successful versus the ones that aren't?

For sure.

Because like, if you can't, if you can't evolve as fast as the market you're trying to service, then at some point you're bound to become obsolete as a business.

Yeah.

But it's really interesting though, because I think some companies, and I do, I definitely think that like the companies in the world, like going back to SMS marketing, right? Like Twilio of the world, right? Twilio had a huge evolution. They continuously progress. They're like continuously bringing out like different features and products to their product, right? But then you think of like, I don't want to compare them to like another SMS platform, but like my point is though, is like, like I have seen other SaaS brands like in maybe health tech, fintech who just are kind of like, oh well, I'm at the top of my game and I'm just going to stay here. But then like start losing their clients. Like, again, it actually goes back to relationship building. Ultimately, this really goes back to relationship building and like having a feedback loop with your clients and listening to your clients to offer new products and services and listening to what the market is and what the market is doing. Even if that might not speak to what you wanted your, your product to be, you have to constantly keep evolving and scaling. And I have seen founders not evolve and scale.

What do you see as the most effective— I mean, because you're, you're like so in the e-com world, you kind of know everyone and anyone like across the board of e-com, SaaS, first D2C. What are the methods or tactics that you see to be the most effective from like a relationship management perspective? Yeah, uh, you know, whether it's dinners, like making sure you're at all the right like conferences, is it just like building very intimate relationships with the market movers, like for for the e-com SaaS founders, like, what, what have you found to be the most successful? Because like you keep referring to like the Postscript guys, obviously they've done something for you.

Yeah.

Whether it's just serve you at festivals or like something beyond that, we're like, that's the first person that comes to your mind, which means they're doing something right.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not just Postscript, it's also like other tools that we use in my like CX tech stack, right? Like Customer. I, I stay with Customer before because I have a relationship with the people that are still at customer, right? And I certainly the same thing, right? But I think, I think you're right. Like, I think, yeah, definitely like conferences, but conferences get so stale, dinners get so stale. It's also really hard to like take your top clients to a dinner and then like it's not inclusive to like your other little guys that are like, or like have hope with you and like want to scale with you, you know, I I think it's, I think it's far deeper than just having events in these conferences. I think it's relation— it's again, relationship building. It's again, knowing who your stakeholders are, but also for every stakeholder that is in an e-com brand or even another SaaS company, eventually those people leave. So who are you developing a relationship with outside of even just those stakeholders, outside of the people who are just signing the contracts with you? You, it like, um, I think about a lot of like my past when I was coming up as like a junior manager before I've like been at, um, at this level. And, um, I think a lot about how when I would bring in like another product to like help me in the, the, my department, um, how I've had people just kind of like bypass me and just be like, oh, well you're not a stakeholder and you're not the person that signing it, so I'm not going to get to know you. But now what's interesting, I'm not going to name a company.

I know.

Do it.

I'm not going to name a company. Well, actually, I will, because like, I think a lot of people think that this company is like pretty stale. So I mean, I have had this happen to me in just like a CRM ticketing tool. Zendesk treated me that way when I was like a junior manager, right? And then now look, now I'm a CX leader and I'm like, I ain't going with Zendesk. Like, why am I going to go to Zendesk? I'm going to go with a tool that actually wants, like, relationship built with me before. Like, that's in the front of the forefront of my mind, right? So that's my, that's my point is like, you can be the SaaS company today and you can have, you could do these events and you can do this, but you shouldn't just be building your relationships with those stakeholders because those managers or those associates, let's just go back. Associates then turn to managers, managers then turn direct to directors, directors then turn to heads, VPs, C-levels, right? And if you're a company that's going to stick around for years and you plan to have your product on the market, don't treat the little people like shit.

Don't burn bridges.

Don't burn fucking bridges.

I have so many stories of that exact anecdote where just like something happens with someone, you maybe mistreat them, they mistreat you, and then A year goes by and that person needs something from you and it's like people don't forget.

Yeah.

More than that though, because I mean, just speaking like e-com, SaaS, retail enablement, um, it's such a small world that even, even not fully burning bridges, like we have this a lot of verbatim because we work with a lot of like e-commerce software providers. Um, it's such a small world and I was investing for a while before this in consumer brands and most of my friends run brands. And it's so funny because like, we'll, um, like have a good first couple calls. I'm trying to gauge if it's a fit and I wanna work with them. You consult with people too.

Mm-hmm.

It's like you're unsure if you wanna work with them. They're unsure if they wanna work with you. And you get to a certain phase. And once in a while, even this happens now, I think we do good work and have good reputation. Still, people ghost us, like well-known people.

Mm-hmm.

Will like verbally commit to a contract and then ghost. Mm-hmm. And it's like, That's again, it's not burning bridges, but it's like you can get, you know, the same.

Yeah, you can get the same outcome, but like handle it differently.

I think it's all communication.

It's all communication.

It really is.

Because I mean, proactive communication, even, even if you start working with a client, right? It's just, this is what we're going to do today. This is what we're going to do this week. This is what's going to happen this month. That communication is just as important as you saying, maybe if you get a red flag from someone and you decide not to work with them, you just proactively saying, Hey, I'm slammed right now. I'm not sure if this is a good fit, and that's okay. But having that communication reduces the need to frankly fuck up the relationship. And relationship, like, hopefully we all can work together in 20 years somehow. Yeah.

You don't, you don't always remember all the things that someone says, but you will for sure remember how they make you feel.

100%.

Nailed it.

Yeah. I mean, like, I've told you some core memories already, right? Like, I've told So going back to the SaaS thing, relationship building, like merchant to vendor, right? You know, certainly is a tool that I use. It's my chatbot tool, right? But I actually remember them from my SaaS days and I just— and even though like we— I wasn't a part of like the implementation of them from like one of the companies that I had worked at, like I brought them on board, but I wasn't a part of it. But I remember how nice they were. Right? And so when they came across my desk and they respected me, they respected me as like, you know, a leader of that org and like respected my opinion, whatever. And then when they came across my desk, like I ended up having the same like implementation and CSM team. And then we were like, okay, then we've like are jamming out now, like in our relationship, right? And maybe they're not— that tool is not necessarily a fit for everybody, but it doesn't matter if they're not a fit for every person that I consult with. If they are a fit for a person, then like they are the brand that's going to come or the product that will come top of mind, right? So that's like on the like not burning a bridge, right? But I have had people in my lifetime burn bridges with me and tell me like, oh, you're too rough around the edges and you're not going to do things in your life.

Here's me being like, that's the reason I want to talk to her because she is rough around the edges.

I know, but like, exactly. Okay. Exactly my point though, right? Yeah, she curses a lot. But like, you know, I've had somebody— when I like got out of college and I worked this first job, I was a personal assistant, and I was trying so fucking hard to be good at it. And maybe I'm just not a good personal assistant, let's be fucking real, okay? But I would show up authentically as myself, and then I was told that I'm too rough around the edges and I will never go anywhere in my career if they don't soften them for me, right? So then I spent fucking years trying to soften— for what? And but now I'm okay. I know I'm in like a rabbit hole here, but the reason I bring that up is because that is such a core memory of a relationship that I had with that person. I— and like, people have asked me— I'm— can't— I don't want to name— I'm not calling this one out, but people have asked me for product recommendations or store recommendations in San Francisco for this particular product, and I'm like like, you should go to this— I almost, I almost called out the industry. Oh, but you should go to this other one instead of that one, even though they have great reviews, you know. But like, I know that's like a very small thing, but they— I've had a relationship burn a bridge with me that I will always remember that. And just don't fucking burn bridges.

But those— it also compounds in your life. Like, you— a lot of people don't take a step back and think about how many interactions they have in a day, in a week, in a month, in a year.

Yeah.

Like if you treat enough people wrong, you establish a reputation and that reputation follows you.

Yeah.

And to your point about like having a brand, to you it's like, oh, it's simple, I just told someone to buy this instead of that. Well, what happens when there's like thousands of people that are saying that same thing about something and you're so unaware of it because you're just like a dickhead and you have no like self-awareness? Yeah, it matters.

Yeah.

And I think, I mean, I'll be the first to admit that for me it's definitely taken a level of maturity time and reflection to, to figure out how to like manage relationships more effectively. I think for the longest time I was always so fixated on the concept of like quantity instead of quality. And I know it's like very cliché, but it's like, I, I want to make everyone happy, I want to know everyone, I want to do everything with everyone. And then at a certain point you're like, that's not viable. Like, there's only so many hours in the day, and if you want to be unapologetically yourself, you're gonna piss someone off, and you need to be okay with that.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that, that is a little bit of my hard line. I will be honest with you, I won't ever be like really mean to somebody.

Not about being mean, but not changing for someone. Yeah, like, I, like, I guess like people will judge you for how you act or how you operate, and I think you need to be okay with that to be able to continue to push your own limits on being yourself unapologetically. Because I'll be the first to admit, for the longest time I cared so much what other people thought.

Yeah.

And would like change my behavior weirder because of that.

Yeah.

And I would say over the last year or so, I've continued to evolve towards the other side of it, where it's like, I'm gonna do what makes me happy, even if you think it's weird or cringe.

Yeah.

But I'm still going to treat you with respect.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, God, I'm sorry, I, I don't, I don't know if you—

I wasn't gonna respond.

Okay, like Bogarting this time. Hello. Um, yeah, I mean, absolutely. Like, I— the same thing though. I've had many relationships, quantity over quality. I mean, I spent my entire 20s like that, right? Like, oh, I'm going to— I'm going to hang out with these people even though they were shitty ass people, right? And now I'm in my late 30s. Like, where are any of those people? You know where the people that I actually hung out with in my 20s are? Are 5 people. They don't live in the same city that I live in. I have 5 best friends that are spread out across the world. Right. But, but I'd rather not have a ton of relationships in my life and have like the quality people who don't drain my energy. And I know that's in a friendship aspect, but like I am definitely like, I apply that to my business life as well, is like I will like professionally have a life with you, like coworkers for instance, right? I used to always try to be everybody, everything to everyone in a company, especially in startups, because it's like you're just so in the trenches together, right? But the thing is though, is like, they're like, as a company scales, there's like honestly some people that come in, they're kind of, kind of crappy, right? And like, I, instead of always trying to like be that everything for everyone and like be like, okay, well let's be besties now in business relation and like coworkers too. I'm like, cool. All right. We, this is a professional, like transactional relationship. We work here, but I don't know if I'll ever talk to you again, you know? And I have like plenty of friends in like my professional life that are like my homies, like 3 of those best friends I was referring to, I like worked with them at other companies, you know, but like I'm just saying, like you can apply that, that logic to every relationship, whether it's like coworkers, whether it's friendships and merchant to vendors.

What about, do you have like a, do you try to delineate between personal and professional? This is something we talk about all the time, how my both of those have kind of become a blend of one for me.

Yeah.

Um, I'm curious, part one of the question is, do you have people where you can like segment between the two? And then the second piece of it is like, what are the types of things you do to try to force yourself to like not think about work for a minute?

All right, so first, I definitely have people that like, it's blended, right? Well, this is actually gonna go back to my Oopsie podcast real quick, right? So, um, an oopsie that I have like made and have like publicly talked about is, um, I made a mistake as a junior manager. I thought I like knew everything about everything, right? And I was, um, I was, I had somebody under my team that I was like letting go the next day and I was like gearing up all the, the stuff and I was getting it done and I went to go text my boss to let her know that like, hey, this is like done, right? Yeah. This is episode 1, season 1 of, uh, my podcast. So anyway, I go to text message her and I do it on my computer because I'm blending my personal and professional life. But I didn't need to text message her. I didn't need to tell her that. That could have been an email or that could have been a conversation. But because I had a little bit of a, like, personal relationship with her, it was like, oh, by the way, this is all done. But it was slightly gossipy, really, if you think about it, right? Anyway, I know I just set the stage. I accidentally texted the girl that I was—

that's why my face—

yeah, was—

I was like, I know exactly where this is going.

I accidentally texted the girl that I was firing.

Oh my God.

And let me fucking tell you, let me fucking tell you the things that I learned in that moment, because it was an HR nightmare.

So uncomfortable.

Yes, I know, it's still a nightmare. Um, it's still sticks with me to this day. It's still— it's like a people leadership thing for me. It's an empathy thing for me, but it's also like a very gossipy thing for me too. Right. And so till this day, I strongly advise— I'm going to look in the camera— I strongly advise do not text on your laptop.

Second, I text on my laptop.

Made so many mistakes.

All the time. All the time. Trust me. I mean, I did this right. I don't even know how I did this anyway. Second thing, though, is like you have to separate personal from business. And I know this is a very small story because like I said, I don't need to be texting that. I could have written that in an email. I could have had a conversation in business hours of this, right? That is a prime example of like business is business and personal is personal. And like when you are in the workplace, you can have relationships, but there's different levels of relationships. And I just think that, like, don't be gossipy. Like, if you're going to mix those relationships, don't be gossipy. Be like, we talk about being real. Yeah, be real, but like, don't be a dickhead. Don't do dumb shit, you know, with that relationship because like, that is such a business and a personal relationship in one place is such a trusted relationship that you can blur lines so easily and like that can have long-lasting effects.

There are definitely risks for sure. I think it's something that I think about a lot. There's definitely people who I'm— some of my best friends who are like very talented, who I in some instances would love to like have them work at my company, and I have reservations about it because I'm like, I think we would do well together, like we understand each other, they have the skill set I need, but it's like, what if shit blows up? You can't actually look past that ever again, like from your relationship perspective, which makes it a little bit more dangerous. Um, but I'm definitely not gonna slip back— slip by the end of this story. So like, what did the person respond to this?

Oh man, it's a crazy scenario.

I was like, I'm not just letting her casually drop that and then like we're not gonna like—

leading us on with the story.

No, hold on, actually go back. What did you say first in the message and then what was the response you got?

Uh, straight up, I am not gonna say this person's name. I literally said in, in text message, we are all set to fire blank tomorrow.

That's all? Or was worse?

No, that's it. I just don't want to say the name.

What did the person respond?

Oh, it was literally like question mark. And I was like, in my brain I was like, why is this bitch writing me question mark?

Oh my God.

And then I was like, oh fuck, oh fuck. And like, there's no coming back from that.

Did you just do it right then and there?

No, there's no there's no— I, well, I will tell you, and then my business hat went on. So at least, at least I had this much in my junior manager life. Okay. I did not respond back. I immediately called my boss and my CEO and like everybody, and I was like, we have a bit of an HR issue here. And you know, we worked through it, all these things, like blah, blah, blah, worked through it. And in the end, it's really funny because in the end, I think that scare got this, this person to actually do better at their job. And they ended up not being fired at all because at that point you can't. It's an HR issue.

You can't fire them after telling them.

Yeah, I mean, you could, but like, they probably would have gotten sued.

So you saved this person their job?

Yeah.

Were you the one that wanted to get rid of them to begin with, or did that come from above you?

It was me because I had run plenty of support teams and was like, what is this?

So then you basically had to eat your own mistake and keep this person under you even though you didn't want to.

But again, I mean, but then like, how long did they stay for?

I'm so intrigued by this story. Um, until they're actually the CEO of the company now and I got fired by them.

Yeah, well, we had like a round of layoffs and they were on, um, a part of it, like, but much later. I mean, like 3 years later, right?

Wow.

Um, So I think like two things have happened out of this. Like that person ended up like actually like taking that moment of like, oh shit, like I'm fucking up. Like I need to be better, right? And then second, I learned so much. Like I so much. And again, business is business, personal is personal. That is one of the biggest things that I learned out of that, right? Second though, I, you know, I, you know, she, she, she did really well and all these things, but like she ended up actually becoming like a manager of the team, like after.

Do you still keep in touch with her to this day?

Yeah.

No way though, the person that you didn't fire, fired but didn't fire.

And I actually have referred her to, to support jobs.

Whoa.

She turned out to be one of my best workers.

FaceTime her right now.

No, no, no, I hope you— she never listens.

So here's your chance to tell the story. There's three sides to every story. So nice about Dude, she's like, I hate— yeah, Jess is the worst person ever. She did the worst thing to me. I can't believe it.

Wait, I have a— quickly, I have a funny texting story. So literally this Monday of this week, I wake up at like 6. I'm like really tired in the morning. I like grab my phone first thing in the morning and like go to take a shower. And so I go in the morning, I'm like in the bathroom quickly, and, uh, Karina had gotten in to— from New Orleans, she'd gotten into New York, my girlfriend for context, like that night or something. And so I'd gone to bed early So I wake up in the morning, my first thing is like, oh, I should text her. So I open my phone, I text her like, good morning, my love. How was the flight? Uh, I can't wait to see you. I miss you. And like, it was cringe. It was sweet, but cringe.

And yeah, I'm kind of, you made me uncomfortable.

He's trying to do his ex.

It wasn't an ex for her. And I get out of the shower. It's like hour goes by. I didn't even think about it. I thought I was just texting her. And then I opened my computer and I go on Slack and one of my clients Prince is texting me. He, he responds to the text that I had sent him. There's a client of mine who's also a friend. It was luckily it was Prince, and he goes, flight was great, babe. Thanks.

You're so lucky. I was all clients too that it was him.

I was so lucky, but it was a moment of like knowledge rushing to fill that void of like, this wasn't my girlfriend. This was in fact a client. Yeah, I was telling good morning, babe.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow, that's so fascinating.

But you know what's also interesting about these like fuck-ups? Okay, I mean, granted these are like text fuck-ups, but this is also like communication fuck-ups, right? Sometimes though, like the other thing that we should all learn from this is like sometimes just shut the fuck up and like sit back for a minute and like listen and wait for what the next thing should be. Not try to like go and fix it, you know? Like, um, because you didn't do that. Like you didn't go and try to fix it. You were like, oh okay, that's like an embarrassing moment, but like, yeah, whatever. Mine, I was like, oh, I wanted to write back so bad, but I didn't.

It's, it's basically just like not making— and something I will put my hand up and say I need to get so much better at is like not making emotional decisions in the moment. Like having the maturity to take a step back for a day, 2 days. Every situation has its own context, but to be able to make a rash decision after digesting it— there's been instances where someone has pissed me off or something and I just want to snap because I'm upset about whatever the thing is. Instead, it's force yourself to take a step back, look at the situation objectively, and then make the right decision. Yeah, with you in your— the context of the text message, you could have just like responded right away, and then all of a sudden you get yourself into trouble because you're breaking 5 HR violations instead of 1, and then shutting your mouth and trying to solve it after the fact.

So embarrassed of this moment in my life. But absolutely, I mean, absolutely. And honestly, it goes back to actually one of your questions that you had— or no, I'm sorry, I think you asked me the question about like business decisions, or I don't know. I don't know. We like talked about this though, like how do you make business decisions and like what, like what you go through. And that same thing applies to this though, is like sometimes you just gotta take a step back. Don't come from an emotional state. So it's like, oh, if you weren't gonna quit your job, right? Like maybe think through it. What are the implications of like me doing this? Make a plan, strategize that plan, right? Uh, and, and granted, I think this is because we're like all entrepreneurs, let's be real, like that we always are constantly thinking about like strategy, but I I think that a lot of people, whether you're an entrepreneur or you're, you're okay with like, you know, working with other people, like, and you don't want to go start your own jam, I think that like looking at business decisions and your reactions and whatever it is, you're thinking about it strategically. You're thinking about it of like, what is my next move? And like, what are the implications of that next move? You know?

Yeah. I think also sometimes not Sometimes, yes, there's like strategy, game plan, next steps need to be considered. But this is something similarly I'm not great at that slowly doing my best to change is just having a blank slate. Cool. Let me give it some thought. And then not maybe like not, not deep diving on it, but just like going for a walk for a while or just sitting on a decision for a couple of days. We just gave, um, we just put out two offers for like a couple more writers. Internally. And I was unsure on pricing for a couple of them. We ended up doing 30-day sprints, but we were going to give one of them the offer. And I really wasn't sure. And I just said, "Hey, let me give it some thought." And I just took a couple— I know it sounds crazy, but just took a couple days. And I didn't actively think on it. I just kind of let it brew. And then a couple days later, I was like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I should do that." But I didn't block out time, 30 minutes, and I got to think about it and I got to talk to someone and a reference. It was just literally just some like time for your subconscious to be like, all right, let me process this and think about the implications.

My therapist is gonna be really proud if she ever listens to this, cuz I'm about to tell you like the one thought. Um, my therapist, shout out to Val, tells me all the time about the same thing. It's like sometimes you just need to like take a moment and like go for a walk or come from a calm state and not a trigger triggered state. And so it's like when you're making big decisions and you're making, um, like maybe it's, you're not developing out the strategy plan, but like maybe you're just making a big decision, right? And like whether you're upset, happy, whatever, taking a step back and like breathing and like for 10 seconds before actually making the decision in the triggered state is like a better decision, decision-making process. And you can apply that in, um, It doesn't have to be 2 days. You can apply it in 10 minutes. You can apply it in 1 minute, you know. But it's like just breathing and getting yourself into a sense of calmness rather than the trigger and activated state.

What percentage of your day do you think you're in triggered, activated state versus calm state?

Probably about 10 hours a day. I don't know. I'm like, the rest of the 14, I'm sleeping for 8 of them. I'm doing other things, you know. I've I'm, I'm joking. But like, um, to be honest with you, I kind of feel like I, I wouldn't say like— I can't give you a huge percentage. I can't, because I can give you a percentage of my week.

Yeah.

Um, I think probably about like 30 to 40%. And the reason is, is because I also offer— operate on very like psychopath mode of like doing so many different things. But I'm be— I'm given decision-making rights in a lot of the things that I'm doing, you know, with— and I also function autonomously without like having other sounding boards. So it's like whether it's like doing the piping of a support program, right? And like installing a CRM. And or if it's like making a process change to how we're interacting, like those are all like big key decisions as much as they don't sound like it, like They're all— these are all big key decisions because I am playing with somebody's customers. I'm playing with their brand presence. So even though 30 to 40% seems like low, it's still kind of high if you think about it, right? Yeah, it is. So I think I don't want to say like triggered because triggered probably actually makes it seem like it's somebody's mad or happy or sad, right? I would say more activated. I'm in an activated state where it's like I have to make decisions constantly.

Yeah. I think when you're— I think this is something we've been talking about of different narratives that we want to bring up in this podcast around turning pro or on this idea of turning pro. And a question we lean on a lot is what do you have to give up in order to take it to that next level or what do you have to sacrifice? And I think for a lot of the people that, yourself included, that we have on this podcast as guests or just as founders more generally, you give up that, not peace of mind, but you give up being able to be calm all the time. And part of that sacrifice is like, you're going to have to be in a triggered, activated state 30, 40, 50, 60% of the time if you want what comes on the other side of this. There's like this famous line called like the innocence of youth, of like the reason college kids are having so much fun and happy is because they're so innocent. Like they literally have no idea. Of what's happening. And I think, yeah, like when I was, uh, investing full-time, I didn't run a company. Um, I could actually really enjoy my weekends.

Mm-hmm.

And be really present because I was innocent. Like I didn't know what was happening. Mm-hmm. And so the trade-off, which I'm sure you're feeling, is like you're gonna have to be in these states sometimes.

Yeah. And, um, I think that in our line of business, especially in like startup world, We are in that triggered or activated state so much because we're also dealing with like seed and scrappiness of like just starting a company where you have to, like, you have to make new iterations and you have to learn and you have to make decisions constantly to get to the, the other end of it. Right. And like, I could be making a good decision or I could be making a bad decision, but you have to at least try. So we're constantly in that like activated triggered mode. So Val's advice, take a minute and breathe.

Shout out therapy. I love that.

I think that's a good place to wrap up here. Jess, thank you so much for joining us. If you wanna look at the camera, let everyone know where they can find you and what you're working on.

Yeah, you can find me at jessservian.com or on LinkedIn, Jess Servian. I am out there consulting, mentoring, so hit a girl up.

Love it.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for coming on.

Thanks.