#012: Chaz Flexman - The Future of Data-Driven Brands at Starday Foods

My drive isn't to prove them wrong. It's to prove myself that I'm right. The time and sweat my co-founders and I put in, we are right. I can see it.

You understand what it means to face adversity and you need to be able to push yourself a little bit further when someone tells you you're not good enough, you're not strong enough.

I know the things that are my superpowers that I'm the best at. How do I make sure I'm focusing myself around those? Because that's like what gets me the best outcomes. Like, I know where I can move the needle or what I'm very uniquely capable of doing and making sure I get to do that. It's just like figuring out what you're good at and what role suits you for that.

Chaz Flexman is the co-founder and CEO of Starday Foods, where he's building the next great food and beverage conglomerate using a customer-focused, data-centric approach. Previously, Chaz was on the founding team at Pattern Brands and a partner at Andreessen Horowitz and SF. In this episode, we cover why Chaz believes in coaching and therapy, shifting consumer habits for healthy food options, and Starday Foods' inherent data model advantages for massive scale. Welcome back to episode 13 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Chaz Flexman from Star Day Foods joining us. Thanks for joining today.

Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it.

All right. We are super jazzed to have you on. I've known Chaz for 3, 4, something like that. It's been a while. The first thing we've got to cover, the first thing that I want to talk about is ever since I've known you, you're probably the most intentional person about where you spend your time. Like a lot of people will say I'm really happy here. And then I'm like, why don't you go there? And they're like, oh, I got too much shit to do. Right? When you notice that you want to be somewhere or you want to be doing something, you will do it within like a month and you'll just make it work and actively change your life. So tell me more about that. We can start with, I guess, location, because I know you split time between New York and Arizona.

Yeah. I mean, look, I think a lot of it is having learned the opposite of what doesn't make me happy or what burns me out. I'm a big exec coaching and therapy person. My exec coach is changed my life and really made me a lot more cognizant of the things that give me energy versus take energy. And that's location, that's routine. So yeah, I spend half the year in Arizona and half the year in New York, which is the right sort of balance for me from what I need from getting the life of New York, but also having kind of the balance of Arizona where it's quieter, easier to kind of get back into my routines when I get out of sync and things like that.

Tell me more about like what you're getting from each place. We were talking about this before when we were walking around, but what does New York give you that Arizona doesn't? And then at the same time, like if you were in New York 100% of the time, I don't know about you, I'd go fucking crazy because it's just like too much, but I still need it.

Yeah. I mean, like I'm an extreme extrovert, right? Like I need to be around humans. I need the spontaneity of New York. Like I ran into 3 different friends either walking to or walking from home from work yesterday. And it's that sort of like serendipity that you get in the city where you walk out the door, you're like, let's roll the dice and see what happens. Or someone's coming to town and suddenly you're having a breakfast that morning. That's the sort of stimulation I need from New York. And then being around people that are, you know, everyone's in New York for a reason, right? Like, this isn't an easy place to live. People are here with intention. And so it's fun to be around those people who are so well-rounded. Arizona is wonderful. It's a great place to raise a family. I grew up there. It's very easy to kind of like, you know, slow things down. But you don't get the same spontaneity, right? You make plans 2 weeks out because everything's a 25-minute drive. And so when New York gets nuts, it's nice to go there to like have a moment to kind of slow down, you know, when I need to go grind at work and just have no distractions and kind of my blinders on, you know, it's perfect for that too. But, you know, there's no beating New York, right? And just the people that you interact with here that you get access to, it's second to none.

I want to circle back on a comment you just made because it's something that I've been thinking about a lot. But you alluded to executive coaching and therapy. How do you— how did you source the people that you work with, or how did you think about that process? Because to be honest with you, it's something that I've been thinking about for like a year, but I can't fathom the thought of like going on Google to like find a therapist or an executive coach. And it's basically whatever company like sales funneled you the most or spent the most on ads is like the person that's going to be there to like, yeah, talk to you.

So I'm really lucky in that one of the investors in my original round part of what they offer is they pay for your first year of exec coaching, which is amazing.

I've never, I've never heard that before. Is that a common thing?

They're trying to change it. I'm actually speaking at a conference in Napa next week about this very topic to, like, encourage more VCs to, you know, spend some of their dollars to actually pay for this. But they partner with a company called Palaya, which is an exec coaching service, but they do like a really extensive matching program. So like, you know, a good exec coach for me isn't necessarily a good exec coach for you. They do this whole onboarding to understand more of kind of what you want, what you're looking for, and then have you like interview and screen like 5 or 10 exec coaches to figure out who's the right fit. And so it's great. You know, I've probably got 20 other founders that have like now working with them because it's just, it's, I, I definitely wouldn't be the CEO or the human that I am without them.

What about on the therapy side of it?

I found it through them as well.

They offer, they offer.

Yeah, they offer both. So And I'm lucky my exec coach, I wanted someone, you know, you've seen Wendy Rhodes in Billions, like she can do the personal and the professional. And so it was important for me to find an exec coach, especially that like how I am showing up as a human at work is how I'm going to operate as a CEO and running a company. And so someone that could really kind of work on both sides of me because those are inherently interconnected.

If you had to, if you had to just distill like the top 2 or 3 changes of how you interact, it could be your team, it could be how you work, it could be just yourself personally. What would those be?

So one of the things that we did that was most impactful was, I'm not going to do too many analogies here, but you've seen Game of Thrones, like the Man of Many Faces, where they can put on a different face.

Jaqen H'ghar.

Yeah, exactly. I can kind of be that person. I can sit down with engineering, I can be a sales guy, I can kind of run that full spectrum. And sometimes that means I forget which face is mine. And so we did this exercise where I had a dozen people from different walks of my life, from personal to parents to high school and college friends, like the whole nine yards. And they said, "Great, describe Chaz in 10 adjectives. And then when you walk in a room, how does that room change?" And then they compiled that all together and you start to see the overlaps of how the people in your life see you and the ways that you show up. So I probably go back to that once a month when I'm starting to feel a little out of sync of like, oh, that's who I am, that's the human that I want to be. This is how I'm showing up and making sure that I'm kind of centered on it. On the work side, my two co-founders go to exec coaches as well. Something we invest in as a company. It's definitely helped with like communication styles or like you're when you're running into a tricky situation, like working through coach, like, all right, how do I, how do I talk through this? How do I approach it? What's the best way to like get to that right outcome? And even just having an outlet where, you know, sometimes as a CEO, it's like a really lonely job. You know, my co-founders are wonderful and I couldn't build this thing without them. But there's still, you know, times where it's just, you know, on me. And so having like an outlet to kind of talk through that about like I've cried on the calls with my exec coaches a dozen times, right? When you're going through kind of the ups and the downs of it all. So it's great to just, you know, I always say like entrepreneurship is a, it's a bunch of highs and lows in a very short amount of time. Like it's just this like constant like up and down. And so having someone to like help, like I'm a pretty pretty standard emotionally person. Like, I don't get too high or too low. But even then, like, I still need something that's helping me to, like, manage both of those sides when I'm, you know, at my wit's end. Like, you know, when I'm, like, at my highest, be like, all right, let's, let's get back to focusing on things that you can continue to improve on.

But I think the vulnerability is so important because if you're not vulnerable, you're not actually getting anything out of it. Like, I spoke, I spoke to someone, um, last week, Jacob's company, which we don't talk about because I don't even, I don't even think it's public yet, but I spoke to a doctor and he was asking me like, what are the things you're looking to improve in your life? And I was so vulnerable with him about like the mental health side of things because, uh, I just raised my first round of funding for my company a few months ago and one of my mentors asked me, he's like, okay, so you're looking after a team, you're looking after investors, like who's looking after Ben? And that was the first time where I was like, shit, no one, I guess, is the answer, which is what prompted it. And so when I spoke to someone, kind of just laid it all out on the table, he's like, wow, I'm really appreciate you just being so open with me. And I was like, no one's winning if I'm not going to be vulnerable with you because especially you're busy, you're a CEO. If you're going to take time out of your day to commit to like an executive coach, if you're not just going to spill it all out there to actually make the improvements, what's the point? I think that if I had to guess, one of the reasons a lot of people don't do it is because they're scared to actually be honest about who they are themselves and like what's the thing that they're struggling with.

Yeah, I think the beauty of coaching too is like now with the relationship we have, she knows how to tease something out of me. Like sometimes I sit down, I was like, I don't know if I've got anything to talk about. It's like, cool, let's just talk. And like, we'll slowly like pull the threads to get to me to like, oh, there actually is something underneath here that like I had like pushed down and stored away that I didn't even realize, uh, that like, you know, it's probably manifesting itself in some unhealthy manner. Uh, and so it's just like, it's great once you have that relationship to like really do the work and like have them, you know, pull that out of you because they know you so well. How—

this is a personal question because I don't know the answer. How do you How do you let yourself talk openly about things without knowing that there's going to be a clear task or action item attached to it? I talk to my coach about this sometimes where I don't have anything to talk about. He brings stuff out and then sometimes at the end of every thread I'm like, all right, how are we going to action this? And he was like, we don't need to action everything.

That's sort of, that's a problem of being just like a CEO that all you, execution is your life.

That's why you raise capital and that's why you're great at what you do. Tell me about what you've learned.

This is my third company that I've ever run or helped to found. First time being a CEO, but I've learned a lot of, I'm okay without the action. I'm okay knowing that there's 2 or 3 things I have to get right today and that's it. And if I don't do anything else but those 2 or 3 things, the day's a win. And so I've gotten pretty comfortable and again, you obviously know me, but I'm super talkative, extroverted. Like I'm fine putting it all out there. I'm fine if it's just like a conversation where like I'm learning something about, uh, and it's more, my coach would say like, um, I take stuff, process it really quickly and then like build it into my like mental framework. And so it doesn't necessarily have to be an action, but it's like a cool, I'm gonna think about making a decision differently in the future because I know this now. Uh, and that's kind of the thing I really enjoy if it's like, it's future-proofing me in certain situations because I know more about myself or I want to come across or how I want to manage someone or a situation versus like, oh, it's a task.

Yeah. What do you think about, I'm curious to get your take on this too, the roles of, you have an executive coach, maybe a therapist, maybe they're one and the same. You have your team, which you can talk to stuff with. You have a romantic partner, you have your family, but then something that Honestly, I've really enjoyed doing this podcast is a lot of people that I'm tight with or want to become friends with kind of pulling closer together. What do you think about kind of early stage founder network in New York? A lot of the guys that we're all friends with and gals, um, how do you see those roles as friends, people that you can vent with, people that you can just blow off steam with, but also do business with and start things with?

Yeah. I mean, it's, so I've got probably a group of 7 folks that I'm like in regular contact that they're CEOs and founders, uh, where it's sometimes it's just like Hey, I haven't had this situation before. How, like, have you dealt with it? Or like, dude, I'm struggling right now. I just need, I need someone who can like help pick me back up from that low. Uh, and just like be like, yeah, I've seen this before. Or yes, I've felt that too. Uh, and just having that's invaluable. And so I've got, you know, 6 or 7 that I constantly reach out to. One of my friends, Lauren Berson, um, who's at Andreessen and now runs a fertility company, um, has been phenomenal for that. Just like checking in, like, yo, are you doing? Or like, am I really like just sending good vibes, you know, and back and forth, or just you've got that like a little bit more of a backstop behind you?

I think I— the part that I admire about it is that it's very inconsistent and in flux and like those are the only people who actually can understand that. What I mean by that is like time of day, how often— like there's people who I might not talk to for 2 months because we're just caught up in the everyday life of running a company. But if and when you do, it's like they're there for you as if you've been talking every day. So I think having that network of other people who operate on the same wavelength is so, it's so nice because you don't have to like explain yourself cuz they just get it.

Yeah. What are some characteristics, open question, of people that you want to surround yourself with that is in that list of 6, 7 people?

I mean, I think there's always a danger of trying to be like too, uh, does this person like check the box versus like just who do I like?

What do you admire about them?

Yeah. I mean, I think there's people like I try to find that are, you know, further along in their journey than I am. So like, like a later stage founder. To understand the different steps that they've taken. You know, it's one of those— I always knew I could be a good founder. Like, I know how to do the things. This is my third company, but it's like, I want to be a great CEO. So how do I continue to level that up? I think it's, you know, people who are also like in different industries, like it's— I think it's important to like have people that are, you know, not in e-commerce or not in other places. So like you still get that same— you get a bit of a different perspective versus like the echo chamber.

Yeah, but not, not just like the business perspective.

Yeah.

Like what is— what just personality traits? Is it drive, ambition, pace? Is it just empathy, kindness?

Yeah, I think as I've gotten older, like people that are like empathy, kindness are important, especially like romantic partners. Like I didn't know that was a core thing that I wanted until I dated someone that didn't have that. It's like, oh, oh, I need this. Yeah. I think people who like want to grow and like have that kind of growth mindset, But I also think like in the friends I've surrounded myself with, like, you know, I've got two best friends. We went to elementary, middle, high school and college together. Like they know everything about me and like it's a level of safety because like there is no front. They see all the faces. They know me better than I know myself. And so finding those people in your life that you can just like show up for in that kind of complete way.

So I think one thing to add on to everything that you just said that I would say is something I didn't necessarily think about as intentionally until the last couple of months is optimism. Uh, being able to decipher people who are just like sucking energy out of you and are just like chronic complainers versus people who can find the positivity in every negative situation, uh, I think is something that's very good for me personally. I think as someone who's very hard on myself, it's easy to get down on myself because I hold myself to high expectations and high standards. So having people around me who are just always positive has been such a such an unlock for me.

Yeah.

It was one of the best compliments I got years ago from a mentor. He's like, Charles, you, you're in a good mood 99% of the time. Like the sun is kind of always shining. Uh, and it just like, and it's kind of just natural in who I am. It's just like, I show up and it's like, yeah, like I, someone gave me money to build a company and this thing in my head, like how, how cool is that? Uh, we're living in the greatest city in the world. Like amazing. We're getting to create the lives that we want with the intention and not being burdened by everything else, it's like, how can I not think the sun is shining? I'm grateful for the life that I've been given and the life that I've built.

What do you do when— I would say one of the reasons that we all get along is I think we have similar optimism. And I'd say most of the time I'm like that, but there's definitely— I was talking to you about this right before, like 2 days ago. For some reason, just things weren't working in the business, things weren't working personally. And I was just at my place alone and it was like 10:00 and I had so much work to do and I was exhausted. And it was one of those moments that you have sometimes when you're alone, you're not talking to people and you're just like, fuck, things aren't exactly where I want them to be right now. What do you do when you're in those scenarios?

It's actually something my exec coach and I have talked a bunch about is you've got to just let it, we have to let it work through you. Trying to just bottle it away actually isn't productive. You're just like, cool, today sucked. Like there's no way around it. Like today sucked and you just have to like let it like work itself through and be like, cool, tomorrow's a new day. I can hit it then, you know, instead of working for the next 2 hours, I'm gonna like have a drink, make a great dinner, watch Netflix, turn my brain off and like hit the reset start tomorrow. And if I've gotta start 2 hours earlier to make up for the work, then so be it. Uh, but if you don't like let it like pass through you, it, it, it never leaves.

Hmm. What are your non-negotiable habits to get back in? So say you've like processed, you give yourself some time and space, you watch Netflix, you go to bed early, and then you say, okay, I'm going to hit the next day hard. How does that next day start where you're really like locked in?

So I'm a big— I make basically the same thing for breakfast and lunch every single day. Like it's just like it's standard. It works. I don't have to think about it, but just cooking breakfast in the morning and—

Well, what are you making?

So for breakfast I do air fryer cauliflower hash brown. I do a medium poached egg in pesto with some avocado. I put one of our products called Crave on it, which is like a nutritional yeast, and then some Szechuan chili oil from Fly By Jing. I can make it in 8 minutes.

And how long did it take you to get to this being the recipe that's every morning? Uh, I mean, because that's so specific, like the brand, the exact condiments.

Do you eat that every morning, man?

Basically, yeah.

Really?

Yeah.

Even when you're in Arizona?

You definitely want them in Arizona. Really? Yeah.

All right, sorry, continue.

Uh, and then for lunch I do, uh, like half a pound of ground turkey with two of our seasonings, Popin' and Boom, and then air fried cauliflower with, uh, Popin' or Boom and Fuego. Um, and, and then half an avocado. But it's like, it's one of those, like, I just don't have to think about it. Like normally during lunch I don't wanna stop working. That's like when I'm hitting my peak. But I also know if I don't eat something, I'm gonna crash at like 4. And so it's just super protein heavy. Don't have to think about it, down it and keep moving.

I'm obsessed with the concept as someone who has to make a million decisions a day. Like anywhere you can make it one less decision makes your life easier. I know like the extreme case is the, the big Fortune 100 CEOs are like, I wear the same shirt every day. I'm like, all right, like you can change your outfit, that's fine. But honestly, you don't have to like sit there at your desk, go, it's lunchtime, what should I have today? It's like, you know what you're having.

Yeah. And I know how it's going to make me feel like a big inputs equal outputs kind of thing. It's like I know how that makes me feel. I know it gives me the right energy. I know, you know, I'm not crashing. Um, so why not?

Is there anything that you've removed from your life over the last few months, whether it be something you're eating or drinking or a habit where you're like, this is just not the thing?

There's things I'm gonna remove from my life.

You said you're gonna—

going to—

okay, hit us. I'm excited for this answer.

Uh, it's, um, I will not say one of them because my parents might watch this, but like there are certain things I do to like remove some of the stress of the day, that I will be quitting after we close this fundraise that we're at the end of.

I think I know that one.

Yeah. And I got into— I drink like at least a gallon of water a day, like lemon water. And that's just one of those things again, like I know how it makes me feel. It's good. And yeah.

There's nothing else you would remove?

Not right now.

I like, I'm pretty What's one friend you would remove from your life?

He's sitting next to me.

Can't wait for this episode to be over.

Yeah.

But no, there's stuff. There's all this stuff I do. Like I, I love city biking to work in the morning. It's just one of those things. Like I turn into a 12-year-old kid riding an e-bike and like with my headphones on, it just, it puts me in a good mood 100% of the time.

Do you get as disappointed as I do when you go to the rack and there's no more e-bikes? Oh, I will, I will keep hunting until you end up walking the distance it probably could have taken just to walk to work to go get an e-bike. This guy gets it, dude. We're on the same wavelength. I'm the same. Nothing worse.

And then I really like walking home. It's like a half-hour walk home. It's the perfect time for my mind to just unwind, like work its way through music. Nope.

Nothing.

Just let it kind of work through. The other thing I added to— I like, I grew up playing chess, which is nerdy, and I got—

wait, no, that's not nerdy. I— 8th grade, I won the chess tournament. I let my parents throw out all the trophies in my room at home that I had as a little kid. I told my mom, you're not getting rid of the 8th grade chess trophy. It's still sitting in my room.

Wait, do you play like online?

So I played in tournaments and stuff. Like I played enough that I had a national ranking. It was a very low national ranking. Not me. Um, but, uh, I was actually dating someone who got me back into playing chess online. And now like I play, I play 2 games every morning. Like when I sit down, uh, at my computer, just to like get my brain going and firing. Uh, but I play, play like 100 games a week.

Like You do?

Wow.

Blocked out like 8 to 10 AM. Do not block out.

Wait, I love, I, he's like, no dude, I beat people in 5 moves. It takes them 2 minutes.

Uh, but no, I get really proud on like chess.com. I just cracked like the top 20% online.

Um, see, that's like a fascinating anecdote that, that's interesting.

Also, sometimes I'm walking home, I'll go to Washington Square Park and play in the park and get my ass kicked. Like I am, I've yet to win a game. I've come close once, But I just get hustled by these guys.

The last time I went there, my friend and I convinced a guy to let us borrow his chessboard and he watched the two of us play. So I was like, I'm not, not qualified to play against you, but I want to play a game of chess in the park.

Yeah.

It's one of those, like, I know I'm good. I can see my ranking. Like, I, like, I know what I'm doing and I get owned. It's, it's comedic.

What drives you? Good and bad.

Um, I know as a cis white male raised in a good, healthy household, like the opportunities have been given to me that most others don't have. Right? Uh, there's a reason that my two co-founders don't look like me. They're both women. Uh, I don't want to squander the opportunities I've been given to me in my life and like to really make the most of it. Uh, and that's like my, like, uh, like I remember when I was younger, I worked at Andreessen Horowitz back in the day and it was like 25 people. So a little different than it is now, but I just remember sitting there and being like, I can't, I can't waste this opportunity. Like I have to like squeeze every bit of life out of it. Cause it's like, I can't believe how lucky I am to be here. I feel the same way about starting this company. It's like some people entrusted me with millions of dollars to go build something that was in my head. Don't squander the opportunity.

Are there any other chips on your shoulder outside of that one? Even though it's a damn good one.

Do I know every investor that said no to me and remember it? Yeah. Do I know every partner that said no to doing a deal or doubted that we can make this happen. Like, of course, like, I—

so I'm not the only one with that list.

No, I've gotten better. Like, I one time at a certain company wrote kind of a sassy, like, response to a no. And I showed it to someone. They're like, don't do that. Just— there's no reason. Like, this— we're playing the long game here in life. And so I've now got the point. You know, it's like, cool, on to the next. Like, I would rather have believers in my corner than not. I also joke that sometimes fundraising, it's actually like dating where like you only need to be right once, right? You just need to find the one that believes and like fits. And so yeah, if you get 99 nos, but you find the one that actually like gets it, gets it, fuck yeah. Like that matters way more.

We talked about this with someone else, but I wanna, I'm curious if you heard this story, 'cause this concept that you're alluding to is hilarious because I just went through this process a few months ago, but I read something online about a founder who an investor said no. And he sent him weekly metric updates for like the next 2 years. And the guy's company actually like skyrocketed. And the investor was the one who posted on like LinkedIn about a founder who basically just trolled him by sending him the metrics every week for the next 2 years because he passed on his company, which I think is hilarious. And also one of the funniest stories. Yeah, one of the funniest things.

Yeah. Like I— there are people on our like updates that we send out that are VCs who have passed. Just so they can see. And literally, one's come back and be like, I've got FOMO. I was like, did it work?

If they come back in, uh, it was a different stage.

So like, they passed them, but, um, it's, yeah, yeah, why not?

Um, and each one of those nos like still drives you?

No, I don't, like, my drive isn't to prove them wrong. It's to like prove myself that I'm right and that this thing, like, I know I'm right. I know what we're building is correct. I know, you know, that time and sweat my co-founders and I put in. Like, it's— we are right. I can see it.

Uh, but also as an athlete, like, I think part of that is that you, you understand what it means to face adversity. And like, especially in the athletic journey, if everyone says right to you, usually something goes wrong along the way because you need to be humbled and you need, you need to be able to push yourself a little bit further when someone tells you you're not good enough, you're not strong enough. And so I, I'm guessing that similarly to myself, you translate a lot of that like attitude from your athletic career into the way that you operate a business?

Yeah. So back in high school, I was like on a state champion team, but I had two All-Americans ahead of me. And my coach at one point took my parents aside and he's like, "Chase is just as talented as the two of them. He's just in his own head." He's like, "Just run like a dumb horse, like put blinders on and just go." And so I think about that sometimes. Like, look, you know, if you think you've got the talent to do this, just like put your blinders on and go because like you got to just like let that come through and have that kind of level of focus to get you there.

Can you clarify what races you were running?

I was a miler.

What was your— you told me the time. What was it?

I, I like, uh, basically 4:10 to 4:15 was my fastest. In college, you run the 1500, not the mile. And so that's like the translation of time.

That seems way faster than anything I could do.

It's way faster than anything I can do now. That's for sure.

What, what do you think you could run now? 6?

I bet I could.

You could run a 6.

Oh yeah, I know. I bet I could do like 5:40 and then I would throw up.

We definitely need to all run together.

No, I don't want to do that.

Yeah, I'm here for it.

Yeah, let's do it.

I'm not doing a mile sprint. I'll go for like a 3-mile, like Sunday afternoon jog on the West Side Highway.

I'm up for that. Wait, coming back. Okay, sorry. Getting back on track. I was— how much pressure do you put on yourself now compared to a few years ago? Like, is it getting higher every year? Or is it before you had even started your first company that was semi-successful? Was that kind of the highest level of stress or pressure that you've dealt with?

I don't know. I actually think it's kind of constant. I've got expectations for myself of what I think I can achieve. I know, I think here, framing it a little bit differently, I know the things that are my superpowers that I'm the best at. And I know how do I make sure I'm focusing myself around those because that's what gets me the best outcomes. And so it's not like a pressure sort of thing. It's more of just a kind of back to that similar intentionality of it. I know where I can move the needle or what I'm very uniquely capable of doing and making sure I get to do that.

Do you think those expectations for, in a sense, excellence, have you always had those? Is that something maybe that comes with athletics over time? Or just multiple reps of building companies?

No, I think, I mean, I wasn't the greatest student. I was fine, but I wasn't amazing. I think part of it is, again, it's just figuring out what you're good at and what role suits you for that. I think this role suits me better than anything else I've done. And that's, I couldn't imagine doing anything else.

Yeah, I hear you.

I'm going to ask a question out of the blue because I'm just curious, but if there was one class in college that you wish you would have paid closer attention to, what would it have been?

Writing. Like English. Like I'm a fantastic salesperson. That's like the thing that I'm best at. But I wish I was a better writer. So I like, you know, partnered with Adrian on some stuff because like I can't take what's in my head and coming out of my mouth at 100 miles an hour, like, and put that into coherent on paper. I always remember, like, I was jealous. My boss, Andreessen, managing partner, Stanford lawyer, investment banker, but like he could write these eloquent emails in like 5 minutes and that would take me, you know, an hour and a half to write that same email. Uh, and so I'm a much better writer now at this age than I was when I was younger, but it's still, you know, putting words out on paper the right way is, is, I will encourage my kids to pay much more attention than I did.

Can I tell you that's one of the reasons that I wanted to start this podcast? Cause I can't write either. I can like I do better verbally articulating my thoughts. So I figured, okay, let's just like use a camera and a microphone instead of typing something out. And I'm sure there's probably a lot of things we say on here that can be extracted into the way that I will now pitch a business or like post on socials, et cetera.

Yeah. I think writing is really interesting because it's not just your like long-form soliloquies or long-form investor updates or the pitch about the business, like the stuff that we worked on. That's very important. But also I feel like, again, all of our businesses are a bit different, but 90% of the deals that I work on at Verbatim or Close, they're done via email. They're done via text. And you can be casual, you can be formal. You need to read the room. You need to get things across very simply, but also give enough context. The amount of times that, say, negotiating on price, no one has time to hop on a call. You're just texting or emailing back and forth. That's been the biggest learning recently. It's not just this long-form stuff.

Uh, a friend of mine is this guy Semmel Shaw who runs Haystack. Uh, he started, um, originally just writing and like blogging, and then he turned that into like writing on TechCrunch, and then he turned that into like a TechCrunch podcast, and then he turned that into, you know, raising a million dollar first fund. And now Haystack's like one of the better investors out there. And so it just, it was one of those like watching him and like the power of like And he's always known that writing is his superpower, uh, and just the power of the written word when you do it right can just open up so many doors.

I think for me, so two things. The first one is consistency. Obviously with anything else in life, you'll get better if you just keep working at it. My, and I'm curious how you feel about this, but my problem with writing is that my brain moves a million miles a minute. And so when I sit down to start writing, I have like way too many thoughts that I want to get out yesterday and then it becomes overwhelming for me. Like, this might be the craziest thing I've ever said on this podcast, but I feel like writing for me can be anxiety-inducing because when I sit there and I start journaling, I'm like, I don't even know where to start because I have so many things I want to like get out that I'll just like close it and avoid it and walk away from it.

Uh, so two things. Like, one, this is me talking slow. Like, this is like me trying to talk slow because I, I go into overdrive.

Doing a good job.

Thanks. Uh, two, the thing I found that it's good— I actually like, I've got a a big journal that I have, and I go like once a week, take myself out to dinner and just sit and write. And it doesn't have to be anything. It's just me, like whatever's in my head and like scribbles out on paper. And that, you know, if someone looked at it and be like, this is incoherent and, you know, a bunch of like random thoughts and ideas, but it's still like just getting it outta my head onto paper. A, makes me remember it more. It makes me process it better. And so I found like, yeah, sitting down and typing like a long form blog post or email doesn't do that. But sitting and actually physically writing, like really, really works for me.

Are there any activities or things that you try to do? It could be weekly, monthly, that fully turns you off from work and you can just lose yourself in, like playing soccer, playing golf.

Riding the e-bike to work. Like you're just focusing on the road, the music, like there's nothing else. It's simple, but like I really like it. Also, I want to come back to one of your consistency points because that's like a big thing for me is like I do this thing. I don't do New Year's resolutions, I do New Year's themes. And so consistency is one, compounding was one. Compounding was like, cool, if I have 3 good days or 4 good days, that's a good week. And I just do Xs and Os. If I've got 2 good weeks, that's a good month. If I've got 6 good months, it's a good year. And you just track those little things, they compound over time. And this year with consistency, I do week-long sprints. Of like, great, I just wanna like do something consistently for a week. Maybe I'll like it and turn it into a habit. Maybe I don't. But it can be something as stupid as just like doing your nighttime like face routine or whatever it is. Or, you know, all right, I'm just gonna like lift 7 days a week for 1 week. Just something that like gets you into that consistent habit, which is like kind of a game changer, I think.

Yeah. Are you ever tempted, this is just speaking from personal frustration at myself, of I'll do like a week of like eating clean And something deep inside me is like, you need to go have a pint of ice cream from Van Leeuwen right now. And I love it, and I'm not saying I shouldn't be doing that, but I've always had trouble. I don't know if it's like a weak point or two weeks where I'm just like, fuck it, I'm gonna go have like some Thai food and ice cream.

Yeah, why not?

Like, it's because I hang out with Ben. It's a problem.

Uh, no, I mean, I don't have a lot of like self-guilt on that sort of stuff. It's like, cool, I'm doing there's enough that I'm doing right that I'm really proud of that like when I'm doing something wrong like that, it's like, who cares?

Honestly, I'll be the first to say that my behavior is too extreme most, like, most days, yeah, right? So like if I told you what I've eaten in the last 4 days, you would be like absolutely disgusted.

What? Wait, wait, wait, sure.

I just finished 75 Hard, uh, and I was like, okay, I need to like take a week off from this and maybe I'll do it again. But I like the first day when I got home, I ate like a full Prince Street Pizza and like a carton of ice cream and then like had like Taco Bell and all the things, which is not— it's terrible. It's like actually the opposite of what I would recommend. Like you need to do things in moderation. And the whole point of doing something like that is to build like a lifestyle and habits. But for me, I was like, I'm just craving bad food for a couple of days, so I need to like get it out of me and then I'll probably like go back to where I started.

Yeah. I mean, it's— I think when you are over-rotating about it, you become a net negative because if you get out of it, then you're like, oh, something's off.

That's my problem. That is my problem. Totally.

It's like, cool, it's a cheat day or it's a cheat week. Like, whatever. Like, it's still helping your mental health and being happy and like, yeah, it makes you happy. Like, who cares?

Totally. No, I think not worrying about it has been like, like being able to the last couple of days to just kind of eat whatever I wanted and actually not think about it has been kind of, kind of nice. I want to touch on another subject. I know Adrian had mentioned to you, but just like the concept of the podcast being called Turning Pro and what that means. Uh, would love to, to double-click into moments in your life where you felt like, you know, you looked in the mirror and you're like, okay, I just, I just leveled up.

This is—

I'm turning pro. Like, what are, what are those things that you've done, uh, that make you feel that way?

Uh, I've got two. Uh, so one, I was probably like 24 at the time, uh, and I was working in banking. And I remember, like, going to sleep that night and be like, there's nothing about today I'm gonna remember. I didn't learn anything. There was nothing new and interesting. Like, it was a nothing day. Was a throwaway. And like that level of complacency, like just doesn't, like I don't do well with it. And shortly thereafter I read Richard Branson's How I Lost My Virginity. I read as fast as I talk. So I like read it in one sitting for like 6 hours. It's like, cool, fuck. Like I need to go after the things I want. And I've got this thing I talk about a bunch internally and to people. It's like front foot versus back foot in life. Like, are you letting life come to you? Are you going after the life that you want? And so, um, I knew I wanted to break into VC, but like with my background where I went to school, my job, like it was very long shot. Uh, and so I went and I took computer science classes at Stanford. I like learned how to do a bunch of modeling on cap tables. Um, I went and networked my way around cause I knew like just my resume coming over an email, like no one would ever say yes to a meeting. Um, I get down to the final 2 candidates at 11 different VC funds. And you know, this is back when venture was a lot smaller. This is like 2000. 2010, 2011. So there's maybe 30 or 40 firms that were really hiring for junior people. And I remember one, I was just like, shit, I might not get another chance. And so one of the heads of the bank I was at gave me the card for the managing partner at Andreessen Horowitz when there were like 3 or 4 people. Cold email him. And he's like, hey, come in. Let's hang out for, you know, we talked for an hour and a half. There was no, they weren't hiring at all. Someone else had introduced me to Ronnie Conway and he's like, yeah, let's chat. Let's hang out for half an hour. And then so when I heard that they were hiring, I reached back out and lo and behold, they took a chance on this 25-year-old when the firm was like 25 people. And that was one of those, oh, that's the moment that it shifted from front foot to back foot. And definitely changed the trajectory of my career and the things that I thought were possible. The other one is when I left my last company, Pattern, I had a ton of burnout to the point of multiple physical twitches. And I was having dinner with a friend of mine who's also a CEO and a founder of a company. She looks at me and she's like, "Charles, are you happy?" I was like, "No, I'm just working 100 hours a week. I'm working double days of China and US hours." And she was like, "Cool, venmo me right now." And so I venmoed her. And my theme for that year was community. So anytime someone invites me to something that's going to build a community. And so we went to this retreat in upstate New York that was a sound bath meditation that was kind of dosed. I still wear this thing from it. And I went through kind of the ceremony and I came out on the other side and I was like, cool, I need to quit Pattern. And I quit like the next day. I was just like, I need to, like, you know, it felt like I was part of the founding team of that company. It felt like removing a bone from my body to like actually go and do it. But it was definitely the right decision and like put me back in a much better mental headspace. And so this is like a reminder, like don't ever get back to like that headspace that you were in before.

Um, how many years ago was that?

Uh, this was Feb 2020.

Whoa, 3 years ago. You're still wearing that?

I haven't taken it off. Whoa.

So it stays on 24 hours a day. And is it around your thumb?

Oh, it's just because it's got like a long, um, he's playing with it.

It's just— oh, oh, got it.

Because I've got small wrists, so yeah, it's got a bunch of extra string. Um, but yeah, that was the other moment of like, cool, I need to like choose more of the life that I want. This isn't serving me. I'm not in a good mental headspace. I need to switch. And that's shortly after when I started therapy and anxiety coaching and realized that needed to be a big part of my journey.

Are you on— I know front foot, back foot is a spectrum probably. Where in that spectrum are you right now? Are you 100% front foot, getting after it?

Yeah. Yeah. I definitely feel on the front foot in life of going after what I want. I think Getting back to New York from Arizona kind of shifts you back in that mentality of being proactive and like, "Hey guys, I'm back from my little hiatus in the wintertime." So to be back in fund trade hours to going after this stuff at work that I want and whether that's closing on our fundraise or some of these kind of retail deals that we're doing.

How do you ensure that you stay proactive about meeting new people, getting in new rooms, staying at the front foot, especially when, I mean, on paper and in real life, you've had a ton of success. You're incredibly wired in and you're very well loved by everyone that I know, and you're very much in those rooms and in those conversations. How do you ensure that you still are meeting new people, you're still getting after new things?

So sometimes people ask, what drives you? Are you trying to have more money? Is it wealth or whatever it is? And there's this talk that Ari Emanuel did years ago, uh, on stage. And he was talking about like, every day I call 10 people and they take my phone calls when I wanna learn about something new. That could be neuroscience, it could be any, any level of like topic where he just wants to know. And he is like, the thing that I've got is like, I'm, I'm not, I'm famous in that like people will take my phone call, but they don't recognize me on the street.

Right.

But he's like, I can get access to anyone. I saw Marc Andreessen gets to sit down with 4-star military generals when he wants to learn military policy or whatever that might be. And finding new people that access that learning from who they are in different industries is the thing that I love. Because A, that opens up a lot of doors that you just never would have expected. But B, that's how I learn. When I was starting Startday and incubating it with Equal Ventures, when I was building out the thesis, I was just like calling 7 people a day. Just like, cool, take my call. Like, here's what's in my head. Tell me where I'm right. Tell me where I'm wrong. I'll take in some of that. I'll throw some of that away. Uh, ooh, I'm gonna ignore that point you made cuz I don't fucking believe you. Um, but it's like that, like really like dialing for dollars or dialing for, for, uh, information. That was like one of my favorite points. He was just like, cool, I'm just gonna, um, dude, you guys remember The Matrix when he like downloads like how to learn kung fu? Yeah. It's like that same moment. It was like, oh cool, I know kung fu now. Like I just learned everything I could about a topic and that's Awesome.

How do you think about managing relationships? Because like obviously based on that point, like relationships are a huge part of your life and sounds like a priority in your life as well. What do you think are the key drivers of maintaining good relationships?

Um, there's two things. Like one, with friendships, like I'm never, I'm never like, oh, someone hasn't texted me, I don't want to text them. Like I'm always down to be the one that's texting and like pushing and probing and, you know, being in people's lives because like that matters to me and they're, you know, busy with kids or families or anything else. Like I'd rather be proactive always. Um, and, and I'm okay with that. Like there's no, if it sometimes that my best friend who lives in the city, best friend since 4th grade, uh, you know, sometimes it's like a 30 to 1 text, like chain of like me texting him about stuff. Um, and I'm fine with that. So I have no qualms. And two, I think there's a shift in life when you realize everyone that you meet is interesting in their own way, right? And can you kind of find that? And that there's things that you love about them. And so I've got friends from all kind of walks of life that like, oh, when I want more of this sort of intention or, you know, kind of, I don't want to say vibe, but I think— Energy. Yeah, energy. I know that there are different people that I can go to. And it's why, you know, dating, I joke I've never had a bad first date. I can talk my way through it. But everyone's got something that's unique to them that you get to learn. And that's cool and interesting if you approach it that way. I think the last point too is just there's definitely people I see out there that take relationships as very transactional. Right. And like, that's not my MO. Like there's no, there's no scoreboard, there's no score count. It's just, you know, I want to like build relationships with people in my life that it should be for the next 30 years. Right. Um, and I think because I've had friends that literally have been in my life for 30 years, like I had that same viewpoint of like, I just want to like be around those people and, you know, spend time with them and like build that.

So I think the, the, you said it, so I kind of want to go into it, but the concept of dating. I'd be curious to hear how you think about like the qualities that you would deem as that from like a date. How would you quantify it as successful versus not? As someone who needs to be intellectually stimulated that has so much drive, like when you walk away from a date, what would you say were the things that made it a good one versus a bad?

I mean, it's chemistry at the end of the day, right? Like, do you actually have like repartee and, you know, but if you were to, I guess, aggregate the common threads across 20 dates, let's say, Uh, so you mean last week?

Yeah, on the spot last week.

Uh, that's not true.

Um, cutting that out of the pod.

It's gonna be the first short-form clip that we share on the social.

20 minutes. Yeah. Look, there's things, you know, that are non-negotiables, like kindness, right? Like we talked about, like, that's like, oh, I want someone that's kind or someone that sees the world in a positive light or, you know, that wants to like build. And not just be complacent and actually has a worldview. I joke, I went on a date with someone in Arizona and they were a lawyer. It all seemed great on paper. And we're talking about traveling internationally. I grew up in England for a while. I've slept on factory floors in China. I've traveled all over, like most people in New York, right? You're here and you've been all over the world. They're like, "Oh, I've been to Cabo twice." I'm like, "So you mean like last month?" Like, "No, that's the only international travel I've ever done. I've been to Cabo twice." Cool. I don't think I've got anything else to talk to you about. Like that says everything I need to know. And so it's more like, you know, kind of the counterpoint to what you're saying, but like things like that where you're like, okay, that's not what I'm looking for.

Yeah. I think the chemistry point, like you really don't need to over-engineer that. I think it's with new friends or like new people I meet as well. There's people like we met on LinkedIn and started a podcast a week later, not being like, hey, it's chemistry, but like there's just, you just get along with certain people. We met over the phone and I was like, "All right, Chaz is my boy," from the next day. And we just started texting. And since we've probably co-invested maybe 10 times together, maybe more. We've done a bunch of work together and those just build organically. My buddy has a saying that 2% of people in your life will just float to the top and you really don't need to overthink it. Because I am definitely an overthinker of, am I managing these relationships?

Am I—

I need to spend time with Ben and Chaz. But like, event— like, if you have that chemistry, like, you're gonna be friends.

Yeah.

And you really don't need to think about it too much.

Agreed.

I think change— that, that changing in the framing of the thought about the relationship management, I have found, is something that I've stressed less about as I've leveled up myself. Like, when I was still kind of this, this kid working on a bunch of like fake ideas, just like trying to find my way, all I cared about was like new relationships, managing relationships, exerting so much energy into like managing them versus realizing that when you get to a point where you have real problems and real businesses that you're working on, the relationships, the ones that are meant to be there will be there, and the ones that drift a little bit but you still have good relations will also be there. And you just have to learn to accept that, like, whatever happens is supposed to happen.

Yeah. The other thing I learned a while back, and it's, it's more business related, but the problems you've had you think are unique, everyone else has fucking had them. Like, and it's just a matter of like, go find some people that are, you know, have dealt with the same thing and, and get their advice. And again, it's not— don't take all advice as like hard and fast. Like, take the pieces that work for you and kind of move forward. But, um, we're not always as unique as we think we are sometimes.

What's the best— the worst piece of advice you've ever been given that you like just strongly disagree with? Uh, I don't want to—

I'm gonna throw my dad under the bus here, but he can, he can handle it. Um, so when I—

I'll ask a follow-up question to let you cover it. Cover that one.

Uh, he—

when we were— when I was interviewing for VC funds, uh, and I got the 11th no, I was like, shit, like, this might be my last chance. So Chad was like, maybe it's just not for you. Like, it's okay. Like, you don't have to— don't worry about it. Like, you're like, just— it's okay if that's not your path. I got angry. I was like, no, I want you to be like encouraging and pushing me forward. But his, you know, my parents are wonderful and loving, but his, his like, it's okay to just accept it. It's like, no, it's not okay. I'm not okay with that. Um, was the worst piece of advice I've gotten.

And what was the best piece of advice your dad has ever given you?

Uh, I don't have a tattoo, but if I was going to get a tattoo, this would be it. Uh, he's got this phrase he told me years ago that there's no way around it but through it. And sometimes, like, I remember when I was younger and having to pull all-nighters, it's like, cool, no way around it but through it. Like, just crank on work and like get it done. Uh, when I've gone through really hard times to start, it's like There's one route, it's through. And sometimes when you just have that singular thinking, it's just your focal point gets a whole lot smaller.

Has your vision for Star Day, since I think you floated an early idea of it one of the first times we talked, but over time I feel like every time I see you, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And other people I've talked to say a similar thing of the vision keeps expanding and it's fucking amazing to see him get after it. From your lens, is it getting bigger or is this like, that was always the North Star?

Can you just quickly explain what Starday is for those listening?

That would be helpful.

Yeah. So, uh, Starday, we're building the next Nestlé. We're building the next great F&B conglomerate. But if you look in the hood, you're like, but you've got a bunch of data scientists writing code. It's like, well, yes, both these things are true. Uh, we basically use data science to predict product market fit and like where these different trends are going or sorry, where these consumer needs are going and then how they fit into certain trends or categories or attributes. And then we go build the brand, right? So similar, like, you know, Stitch Fix or Shein, they know people like blue polos and they go build it because most of their brands are their own house brands. We think about it in a similar light. Or like Netflix. Netflix knows everything about the content you watch and they go build the shows that they know are going to perform. And then we, you know, we built 4 brands that are live. And then we also started to partner with retailers. We're like, hey, we can show you our data science models. Like, you want to capture more customers? Customer wallet share, this is where you would do it. Or like, this is the psychographic of your, your, your shopper. Like they work out for stress management and strength training. They don't work out to lose weight. So like diet culture-based products aren't going to be a fit. And so it's connecting both that consumer need with that consumer. Where if we say like the product is the process, the output is the brand, like it's like Ford with the Model T. The innovation was the assembly line that put us in Model T that was better, faster, more reliable. And so like our data science models are the, the assembly line, the output is just the brand.

What are some live examples of like going through that process?

Yeah. So our third brand, I'll talk on two. Our third brand is called Kuzumi. It's, um, low FODMAP rice blends. So have you heard of low FODMAP before?

For the audience?

I'm actually surprised you— so I haven't. Um, it's, uh, there's more intent on it online than there is for collagen and probiotics. It's like a, um, but it's the number one prescribed diet by nutritionists to fight IBS and bloating, particularly within women. So it's like an anti-inflammatory diet, but it's really boring and hard to do cuz it's, um, no garlic, no onions, no garlic, no onions, no nightshades. And that's like the simple version. There's actually a lot more to it, but it also means there's, it's hard to get flavor in your diet. Right. And so we made this rice blend that's, you know, an everyday staple that has a ton of flavor to it. That's low FODMAP compliant. But if you see on the packaging, it says gut health at the top, low FODMAP secondary. Because we know like where that is in the adoption curve, that it's not ready to be like the prime time, most valuable attribute. It needs to be like a secondary attribute because it's not like ready yet. And so if you just started with like the form factor rice, you never would have like figured out, oh wait, you can actually solve for a gut health thing. So that's one. Other brand is called Habeya. It's a crunchy topper. So it's like a cross between like a bacon bits and a French's onion, but all plant-based. We made it, we put it in the hands of consumers. We do a bunch of blind consumer testing and the feedback was okay. So we went back to the data model and kind of went attribute stacking. Like, oh, consumers want more protein in their diet that's not soy. So we found this chickpea extrusion that could be a part of it that's now 15 grams of protein per serving. You can put it in a salad, you can put it on pasta, you can eat it straight up as a snack. You usually get like 30 grams of good protein on anything that you're eating. And now it's one of our highest scoring NPS products to date. And so it's like one of those like iterative cycles of what you build. A lot of the way we think about it kind of flies in the face of how most F&B brands are built, which is this like founder narrative fallacy. And for the record, anyone who's founding a company, you've got my respect. This is not meant to be a dig on it, but a lot of F&B brands are founded with this idea of like, I had allergies as a kid, so I'm going to create like an allergen-free cookie brand. And that's like the qualitative insight that's going to lead you to the promised land. I don't think I've got any God-given insight. I don't think my taste buds represent mass America. I don't even like our first product, Gooey, because I don't eat sweets. But my opinion doesn't matter. I'm the last person to try all of our products because I believe in data science. I believe consumers will tell you what they want if you know how to listen. That creates more repeatable, predictable sort of outcomes.

Yeah, it's— I mean, it's— I'm applying a similar methodology, but building storefronts for e-commerce brands around the concept of having them be data-driven, not design-driven. So it's like, yeah, it's great if it looks good, but what matters is you're actually converting.

Yeah, there's a funny story. One of our investors is Fiji, the CEO of Instacart. We were talking one time and she formerly ran advertising at Facebook. She's like, Chaz, when I came to Instacart, I thought everyone would be doing what you're doing. It's just taking all this stuff we know from consumer software and applying it to F&B because it's so trend, data, attribute heavy. And she's like, no one's doing it. It's like, yeah, I don't think I'm the smartest guy in the world. Just that kind of adjacent next sort of thinking. Or if you want like a really bad pun, I was at Andreessen when we wrote the software eats the world memo. This is software eats F&B. It's terrible, but I can't help it.

It's a good narrative. Um, lean into it.

Take it, run with it.

The other fun thing is, um, uh, this is gonna make me sound really old. Uh, I've got some gray in my beard, but not this much gray, which is if you think about what happened in music pre-Napster. So if you're an artist, you have to go to an A&R man to get on the radio until the man was pushed onto us. Now we get on Spotify and search like indie electro pop until the man is pulled forward. That same sort of element was at play in F&B for the longest time where consumers would just accept what was on the shelves that big food was shoveling down our throats. And now after COVID, the rise of digital grocery, recipe books turning into blogs, a lot of that demand and consumer need states were coming online, which meant you could start to understand where demand was pent up and then you'd go build it.

I think that's those conversations with— we all have a lot of friends that are running high-growth food and beverage brands. I think those are always the hardest conversations of even if you execute to perfection, sometimes just the market is literally too small or just the trend is going in the other direction. And that's something that what you're building, again, from the first time we talked, I was investing in Food and Bed full-time and I was like, this explains every conversation we have of even if it's perfect and you don't set a foot wrong from an execution lens, sometimes just The market for kombucha is just moving in a different direction.

Demand drives everything.

How do you think about like trying to build multiple brands at once versus one brand? And did you see that as like a distractor or you have enough parallels in the way you do the operation that you can just make it like a rinse and repeat model?

So when again, I previously was at Pattern Brands, we built multiple brands, we had 40 SKUs in the first 18 months or something like that. And so I remember when we're raising my original seed round, there were some investors like, You can't build more than one brand. It's like, A, I've done it before, but B, watch me. It's a shared services model, right? Where, you know, you can kind of flex depending on the needs because they're not always the same needs at the same time. You know, my VP of sales, whether she's selling one brand or four brands, it's one brand with 12 SKUs or four brands with 3 SKUs, like, doesn't really matter. And so it just flexes kind of that way to scale up.

If Stardays fails, why?

Just really going to all that, those deep dark things I think about at night. Um, it's because of retail line reviews. So basically when you sell into a retailer, they open up a category once a year, you pitch in and then it closes. Um, and then you're set on shelf the next 12 months. Uh, and so it's just a very like, you can only get it in certain times. That's why we're kind of shifting to do more platform deals with retailers where we, you know, basically co-build together and launch much, much bigger. Um, but it's just those kind of like cycle times are like great. You, it's a J curve of like burning in revenue. So when you build a platform, like you have to invest a lot to build the platform. And then at what point does like the output, AKA your brand, start like, you know, pulling money back in, uh, and just like the timing and cadence. Similarly, like, you know, sometimes when we're pitching in at line of view, um, you know, just a category buyer might just not get our model. They're used, it's just different than what we used to see, right? They're used to cool, you're selling in 60 Doors of Gelson's. Now you're stepping into HEB, um, we're like, no data science. We see all the consumer demand. It's just like, wait, like what? Uh, and so what we found is like, as we get higher up and working with retailers at kind of the exec level, they're like, oh, we get it now. Like, it's a portfolio play. You should want all of our brands. Cause like we're giving you category lift, we're reducing your assortment risk, that sort of thing.

What do not, what do, what do most food and beverage founders not understand about retail?

Uh, It's the cadence for like line reviews that like, you've gotta, if you don't pitch in now, you might not get another opportunity for 15 months. Right. Uh, and so you can't change those cadences of when they set. Uh, I think a lot of times founders are like, oh, I want retailers to come to me. Like, I want, I want to like, feel like they want me. It's like, no dude, you're, you're like, you, you shipping pallets is much more profitable than shipping individual units. They get peppered by tons of new brands. Like, You've got to, you've got to sell yourself. And so they just want this like, oh, they're going to come to me. It's like, no, no, they won't.

What about like 10 years from now? Do you think that you're at the forefront of the new norm for what F&B should be or where, where it will be?

Yeah, I think there's this crazy idea of right now building brands with data is not consensus. And that to me, like, that's wild.

But do you know why? Is it just a lot? Is it fragmentation in the market? Is it like lack of information?

Just not the way it's been done. Like, it just, you know, like building with data and you like using data science, like that's just not, it's not how big food operates. It's not how, you know, it's mostly like people starting an F&B brand in their garage, right? That kind of founder narrative story, um, where it's like lived experiences versus data. And so it's just, it's just a kind of diametrically opposed. I think in 5 years or 10 years time, everyone would be like, yeah, why would you not build this with data? It just seems obvious. And it's just, you know, where we are at that kind of point in the cycle.

And Chas would be like, no, no, you do this. This is why we're bigger than Nestlé now. Um, do you think like big fast food chains use data but maybe in the wrong ways or not even?

No, nope.

Um, I'd be curious to know if the data was used in a way to engineer like bad habits being built around like, why do people eat like McDonald's chicken nuggets?

Flavor.

I mean, flavor. Yeah, I guess it's more in the flavoring. Piece of the ingredients?

I don't know.

Me neither. There's this interesting thing where big food for the last like 20 years has had consultants say like, go vertically integrate your supply chain, right? Go put $100 million in your CapEx to get 10% better throughput of your manufacturing. Go do multi-year derivative deals on those core ingredients to lock in prices. And what it means is that this innovation serves the supply chain, not the consumer, right? Like Campbell's launched soup sauces. Like, who's asking for that? Or like one of my favorite examples is Jimmy Dean sausages launching blueberry flavoring. It's like gross.

Um, Jimmy Dean sausage.

Like, yeah.

Why?

Um, but you know, if the consumers now want like alt meat and gluten-free and you spend $100 million in your CapEx to lock in all this like manufacturing and ingredients, like what are you gonna do? You kick that can down the road to the next person. Um, the other part of the data piece is like, um, you guys have seen the movie Moneyball. With Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill.

Of course.

It's like the introduction of sabermetrics into baseball. Like when Jonah Hill walks in the room with a bunch of scouts like, oh, that's a 5-tool player. I know a great swing when I see it. And he's like, on-base percentages, score runs, build like a team around like, like on-base percentages. And that's like how you win. And it's like, again, the same thing that we talked about, like for years it's just been done with intuition. It's like, again, I don't think I know anything. Like my taste buds don't matter. And so it's, it's like you should be using data of what consumers want. Like, that represents the population that you're trying to go serve.

Do you have like certain categories that you personally are just more bullish on in terms of where you want your team allocating their time from an R&D perspective?

Nope.

How do you— like, what is the process you use to even determine like the, the market you're going after before you get to the product level? Because like you mentioned, one of them was like gut health specifically.

Yeah.

Like, how did you land on that?

So Our data models are very different than like a Spins or Nielsen or IRI that just says like, hey, nut butter, shellies, and spreads. This is how it's sold the last 2 years. Cool. Just because something's selling in 60 doors of Gelson doesn't mean it's going to work nationwide at Target, number 1. So our models actually start with this idea of consumer need, and that can be gut health, that could be anti-inflammation, it could be top 10 allergen-free. Um, we then build what we call an ontology around it, which is like a kind of hierarchical data model. We use a bunch of third-party APIs. Third-party APIs, some web scraping. We've got some proprietary data partnerships, run NLP on top of TikTok and Instagram. Because again, consumers talk about their consumer needs, not like nut butters, jellies, and spreads. It's in our own words. We run a bunch of regression models to say like, great, where's this keyword co-occurrence? Where are we learning both behavior, attribute, you know, things that are associated with it? Uh, we then like run a bunch of LLMs, like AI, like, um, about like, great, how's this correlated to consumer intent? Where's this going to go over time? Kind of scoring and ranking and let that drive. And the output of that is a purity, just like you have in software. We hand it off to Lena, my co-founder, who's a 3-star Michelin chef. She's a food scientist. She launched the first gluten-free flour brand called Cup for Cup. We go spin up 1,000 samples and we use a service called Highlight to go put that in the hands of consumers that are representative of where we think we want to sell this. We get NPS, blinded NPS scoring of like taste and texture because that's a taste great and a repeat purchase. And then we, one of our investors is Ryan Caldbeck, who founded CircleUp. Um, and we talk about this a bunch where there's this idea of like, there's attributes that you need to have, like non-GMO and gluten-free, and the ones that give you the right to win. So think, um, we call them MVAs, the most valuable attributes. So think, um, uh, Halo Top with 250 calories per pint. Had they been like the low sodium ice cream brand, probably wouldn't have worked. Uh, and so we run a bunch of testing to understand like, great, what's the MVA? Or like, if you call something dairy-free versus vegan, how does it change pent-up consumer demand, even though it's the same thing? Because really at the end of the day, the packaging on shelf, it's just an ad unit. It's an ad unit with the 5 main variables of diet, health, ingredient, cuisine, and then brand. And so if you start to distill that down, you can optimize that ad unit on the shelf to like figure out what's going to work and what's not with that core set of consumers.

So fascinating, the thought of him just like walking into the office one day and his head of data science like, all right, we're building a protein bar that's going to do this, this, and this. And here's why.

It should—

it's so interesting.

Yeah, that's what it should always come from. Like it shouldn't be from my head.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Then it's personal preference.

And yeah, it's the concept I think we've talked about before of like knowledge versus belief, of like thinking you should do something versus knowing you should do something.

100%.

I'm curious, for direct-to-consumer specifically, I know you guys don't like heavily invest digitally that much, but there's also a bunch of brands that I talk to and obviously that you talk to that are fucking crushing it digitally. So walk me through.

Yeah, so I think you build your brand online, you build your business in retail. Shipping pallets is more profitable than shipping individual units, especially for low AOP price points. Right. There's this idea of the price to density ratio, right? If it's a high price and really low density, meaning like a beauty, great online. Uh, if you're selling sparkling water online, uh, that's really heavy at a low price point, not a great business because shipping is like, you can't get around shipping costs. Um, and so for us, DDC is testing where we're testing that ad unit, right? Uh, and running conversion funnels against it to understand something about the audience, the behavior or the attribute, and then flowing them through to the site. so that, you know, when we're running, uh, shelf talkers or out-of-home for a retailer, we know the attributes are going to work with that core audience and optimizing around that. Uh, and so it's literally just a conversion funnel, you know, kind of testing for us.

And it really depends on the product.

Yeah, it depends on the price point, right? Like if you've got an AOV above like $50, again, that works.

Well, I guess to, to ask about like your roadmap with your products, do you have a focus on lower AOV or like Do you think there might be a world where you are doing— or it's just because you're doing F&B and there's not many food products that you're spending $100 on a—

Exactly.

It makes sense.

It's very different than Pattern, which is like higher, you know, I don't know what their AOV is, like call it $150, right? Where, you know, it's that model works a whole lot better. But for low price point, like you've got to be in retail, distribution's a game.

Yeah. I think we're over the hour mark here. I don't know if there's any Any final thoughts you might have or questions?

Any good ones?

Any off-the-wall ones that you have saved up?

Uh, here, you know what, I'm gonna— I'll pull up— I'm gonna pull up the list, see if there's something that we haven't touched on that I want to ask.

Or we can talk about the— no, kidding, we can cut out this middle part.

No, I think I— I think I touched on most of them. I guess one last one, because we've talked about this a little bit, but like, what do you think are the 3 most common traits in high performers?

Consistency, um, like unwavering self-belief, um, and a like clear vision of like how you think the world's gonna unfold.

What's your answer to that? I don't think I've asked you, Adrian.

I'm not sure I have a full-baked answer. Consistency is definitely one of them. We were walking around We were getting coffee earlier. I said, shout out Doris Dev, consistency, not just in the way you show up as a person, but doing good work year after year after year. The reputation, especially also running an agency, it is so hard to do showing up with excellence every single day. So anyone that has that consistency, I admire immensely. And obviously what you guys are doing, huge fan. Appreciate that.

My, I mean, my number one for sure is inadequacy. High performers are the ones that always feel like they're not enough, and so they're always trying to, to chase like the challenge they have with themselves to outperform that next, next level. And I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing, it's me objectively giving my perspective on what I think I see as a commonality of high performers.

Yeah, I agree. I think that the thing that coaching has changed for me, if like there's like 2 things you're incredible at. Like, you're, I'm like great storyteller and at pitching, like that is the, like, and selling, like, and that's the name of the game. Um, do that. And so it's like, not if it, not a feeling of inadequacy. It's like, no, no, that's the thing you're best at. Go do that. Um, because that's where your superpower is or like you're incredibly resilient. Um, like know that, lean into it and like be able to kind of balance that. And so I think there's like, Yeah, we all have chips on our shoulders and that drives you. But it's also then remembering, oh, this is the thing that, you know, played hockey, like, here's the thing, if you've got a great slapshot, great on a power play, just set me up. This is my zone of genius. This is the thing I'm best at. Just set me up and let me do my thing. And so I think that's a little bit of the pivot on the inadequacy. It's like, no, no, yeah, you've got the chip, but get you to the thing that you're best at and do that.

Make your A's, A pluses, and find someone else to do your C's for you. It's one of my favorite quotes.

That's a good one.

I love it.

Awesome, man. Can you just look at the camera, let everyone know where they can find you on social or your company, whatever, whatever you want.

Yeah, at Stardayfoods.com you can find our 4 brands. Go buy Gooey in Target and we come to a bunch of other retailers soon. Yeah, I'm just— we're at Starday Foods and you can find me from there.

Love it. Follow Chaz on Instagram, @cflexman. Give him a shout out. Seriously, man, thank you for coming on.

This is awesome. Really appreciate it.

Great stuff.