#014: Tom Worcester - Why New York is the Center of Ambition

Tom Wooster is the founder and CEO of Lunchbox, which is now one of the leaders in wearable gear built to improve live event experiences. In addition, Tom serves as a community advisor to high-growth software startups like Northbeam that live at the intersection of online retail and digital commerce and hosts an exclusive dinner series called Operators Only. In this episode, we cover Tom's entrepreneurial journey in New York, building businesses with multiple synergies, mental health, and the personal sacrifices needed to build a company. Welcome back. I'm really excited today. We got Tom Wooster from Lunchbox with us. Tom, welcome to the pod.

Always good to be here, Ben.

So the thing about Tom is I feel like we always have conversations that I think in my mind are like worthy of being recorded. Yeah, Tom is one of my friends where we can go down these super philosophical rabbit holes, have really interesting conversations, learn a lot. I learn a lot of things every time we talk, so I'm excited for him to join us because I think, I think there's a lot of ways this can go, but it's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a fun one. Um, Tom, I was thinking about this, like, where do we start with this conversation? And the thing that I have to start on is The line of work that you're in with your business requires you to travel so much. So your ability to just stay committed to what you're doing and build consistency despite the fact that your schedule every day is very inconsistent— I want to just dive a little bit deeper into that. Like, what does, what does a day in the life look like for Tom?

So, you know, what's funny is, uh, when the whole entrepreneurial journey started, part of it was a commitment of like, I wanted every day to be different. And then I was like, all right, well, what careers are available to me that will allow me to have a day that's different every single day? Um, that has been true. It's also very hectic. Um, so for, for context, for the listeners at home, uh, I run a business called Lunchbox. We're in the live music space and we create a lot of the anti-theft bags, fanny packs that you might see at a festival. Main idea is we want to help, you know, secure that $1,000 phone, get into venue security, stay hydrated if appropriate, and ultimately express yourself. And so over the last 5 years, we've been fortunate to build a large community. Around this brand, but because it's been so communal, we have a responsibility to show up to these events and activate and host meetups and meet our influencers and create content. And that kind of creates the base of our ecosystem. So to answer your question about the commitment, I think a lot of it is understanding how are you fundamentally keeping your routine even when you're out of routine. And so for me, that's about, okay, like every plane is an opportunity to catch up on work. Every car ride that's over 30 minutes, I'm popping open my computer and I'm hotspotting. I'm trying to find every single little gap. And then beyond that, it's like I understand what my goals are going into each week. So even if it's chaotic, I know where I need to be at the end of the week that allows me to say, okay, this is a good and positive week. And then the thing I really hold myself accountable to is in my weekly review, which I complete every single week, it keeps me sane, is actually the idea of does Tom at 45, would Tom at 45 be proud of the way I spent my time this week? And that's kind of like my bullshit meter, right? Was he proud this week? Okay, great. Check that box. If not, what went wrong that I need to kind adjust into the next week. And so it's kind of like this iterative cycle of like knowing what I need to be doing, being genuinely excited about variety from a day-to-day basis. But then on the flip side of it is also being super, super accountable to, am I actually doing the things that I said I was going to do? Because it can be very easy to get lost.

And what are, what are the non-negotiables on a day-to-day basis or weekly basis where it's like, I don't care what happens or what anyone says, like these things need to happen no matter what?

Yeah, I'd say probably my morning and evening routines.

Which are?

My morning routines are 32 ounces of water, 5-minute stretch, 10-minute meditation, write in my gratitude journal. And that's my absolute base. Normally I like to have a little bit of learning in there and writing in there, but it really depends on the day. Evening routine is 10-minute meditation, water by my bedside, clothes laid out. And again, they're simple rituals, right? But they always help me prime on I'm waking up to do something the next day. And I'm shutting down in a way that helps me to turn off whatever happened. Because especially with this group, we've got a lot of stuff going on and that's a wonderful thing. But at the same time, it's like your mind can be racing until 4:00 in the morning and I've gotten 4:00 AM texts from you before. I'm sure I'll get a 4:00 AM text from Adrian at some point. Yeah, exactly. For many reasons. But if you don't have that, then you can't create the separation to be able to be a thoughtful thinker when it does count in the middle of a hectic workday.

When you think about those non-negotiables, morning and evening, how long did it take you to lock in like, okay, this is like my 5-step, 6-step? Was that just built over time? I'm sure that's like constantly evolving even now.

Yeah, it's a good question because I'm 28 now, it was a couple, like a week ago. And when I was 22, I was just like full energy in a direction and that was it. And actually that was roughly around when Ben and I met. We were both like that. Still are.

Wait, how long have you guys known each other?

About 5 years. Yeah, it's been a good amount of time.

How'd you guys meet?

Uh, we met through a mutual friend in the kind of like entrepreneurial community, investment community in New York, and then we hit it off just because we were both, you know, juggling 5 plates at once. We're like, oh, you do it too?

I was like, wait, so you understand me? Because I haven't found many people like— it's so great to meet you.

I had no idea you guys knew each other that long.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of moved pretty quickly, to be honest with you.

Yeah, I mean, we made out like the second date.

You guys are pretty serious now.

Uh, we are very serious. No, I think what's been interesting actually is that Tom is someone who I feel like has evolved in a lot of similar ways to me at the same moments. So it's been nice to have someone who like understands what you're going through, who's kind of doing it alongside you in real time.

Yeah. I'm curious, within like entrepreneurial community, not just in New York, but globally, how have you cultivated that community? And also over time, like people that you meet 5 years ago, how do you think through this person really served me at this time? During this growth period, but also meeting new people and making time for those people as well?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I'm fortunate to have a couple different feeders into my worldwide entrepreneurial network. I think New York is definitely the core. It's just, this is a city of anxious overachievers where people are constantly driving and pushing forward. And you guys are both, we all, all three of us fit that definition. The core of New York is, I think, when you come to conversations with a growth mindset and you're also willing to share your time to help a friend crack a problem, I just think that compounds really positively into an unexpected dinner, unexpected drinks, an unexpected event that introduces you to people. And then following up with those people intentionally and thoughtfully is key. The second thing is I've been lucky to put together a dinner series called Operators Only over the last year and a half. And that's actually, you know, led to me putting together founder tables all across the country. You know, LA, San Diego, Nashville. We're gonna be doing Austin in October, Severn, New York. And so like that has been like centralizing people that I'm very intentional about following up with. And then the final piece of it is that especially when I'm traveling internationally, in addition to those first two pools, I'm a big fan of just putting together groups of thoughtful people and then people will bring other people that they think match the values of the room. So, you know, Amsterdam over our New Year's trip, we're bringing together, you know, uh, strategy ops from local banks. We're bringing together, uh, local content creators just because that's interesting for us. And then hosting those dinners in a way that really teases out who people are. So at the end of a dinner with us, and, and I'm doing this with a roommate of mine as well, but at the end of a dinner with us, we know you and then we care enough to follow up. So all of those things start to wrap up into one another. And then it's also just being deeply interested in people's lives. Now the question you asked was, you know, when do you know when people serve you? And I think that like the caveat underneath all this is that all the people in that circle, it's not about necessarily service, but it's about value alignment. Do they work hard? Are they interested? Are they interesting? Are they— do they, do they pick their head up and see what's happening in the world? And so when I think when you bring those people together, you're actually able to have more productive conversations and have very meaningful immediate connections where you don't have to worry about like, is this person still serving me? And that's why, you know, meeting somebody like Ben is, is easy because it's like, all right, cool. We're value aligned pretty much from day one. And that just hasn't changed. People are like, oh, like, you know, how long have you guys known each other? It's just like, we've been value aligned for 5+ years and we'll be value aligned for 50.

Yeah, I think it takes a lot of thought and energy and care to be the one constantly bringing people together, which I think both of you do, and not only bring people together in certain communities, like organizing literally logistics of massive events or runs or dinners, and then also making sure people are having a good time connecting afterward. It's essentially just a lot of care, proactive care for people. And so I'm curious for you, and Ben, this question for you too, sometimes that takes a toll. Of, okay, who's being proactive about Tom? Who's being proactive about Ben and making sure you're sleeping, making sure you're caught up on work? So this may go back to our conversation around non-negotiables, but have you ever hit, I guess both of you, points where you're like, okay, I've spent so much time connecting people, bringing people together, and I'm fucking burned out. I'm like, I got a lot of work to do and who's looking out for me?

[Speaker:TIM_FERRISS] I'll give you a quick answer because I'm proud of it, but I went to therapy for the first time last week.

And then also posted about it on his Instagram.

Yeah, 100%, because I— and you want to know something, honestly, you know how many people responded to me who were like inquired about what it was like, how they recommend getting started? Uh, I think it's something that in my mind I've thought about for years at this point. Uh, and I think I still think there's a lot of friction in the system today in the sense that I could never wrap my head around the idea of like Googling, like getting sales funneled to like the person who's going to help your mental. Like, I just, I couldn't wrap my head around it. And yeah, you can like you know, you can ask a friend of a friend and get intros. And then there's the concept of like, oh, but like, I have health insurance, so I might as well try and find an outlet where it's covered. Like, why pay out of pocket when you're also paying for health insurance? Um, but the thing that actually really prompted me to do that was I was talking to a mentor of mine a few months ago, and he's like, how's the business going? How big is the team? I know you're managing these people, etc. And then he looked at me and he's like, but who's taking care of Ben? And in that moment, I was like, honestly I don't— nobody like me, I guess. Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm trying my best. And that's when I was like, just to talk to someone, just for someone to listen. I think for me, I'm not a great writer. I'm someone— I think the reason I do the podcast and the reason I like media channels like this is that I'm not a great writer, and so I can verbalize my thoughts much better. And so having an outlet for someone, even just to be a wall, essentially, I can like reason with myself out loud as I'm talking through the things that I'm challenged by in that moment. It just like helps me realize where I can improve in my own personal life. I think the one thing I took away from the first call that I had was one of the issues I face is I love the concept of journaling. Journaling makes me extremely anxious, which is so bizarre. I think the reason for that is that my mind moves at a million miles a minute. And so when I start writing with a pen, I like can't get it out of me fast enough and it stresses me out. Like literally the act of like it takes me so long to write something down. So then I started typing and I still felt the same thing. And she was like, why don't you just go for a walk and just record yourself and talk and just transcribe it? And I was like, wow, I never— as simple as it sounds, I'm like, I never thought of that. It's a really interesting idea. So I think to tie back together, for me it's being proactive and just like poking holes in your own daily life and like figuring out where are there deficiencies and where are things causing problems for yourself and figuring out how you can make incremental improvements every day. Because I do believe in like daily compounding habits.

What about you?

I think, uh, well, I think Ben nailed a lot of the key ones, right? It's like if, um, if you think about us as like a car engine, for example, and you know, we're flooring the gas, at some point it gets overheated. And so like, what are the things that are allowing us to cool off that chamber. And so I mean, Ben nailed it with, and I'll share some of mine, but journaling is huge. If I have an idea banging around in my head, I have to write it out in order to settle it. Otherwise I'm going to—

So every morning or every evening?

I'd say at least every 2 days. Sometimes just you don't have enough time in the day. I also am completely echoing the long walks where you're just dictating to your phone to just get through the rough, raw material of an idea. I use otter.ai to do so, and it's just phenomenal. I would also echo therapy. I think therapy is something that I recently started, and the leadership implications of therapy have been blowing my mind.

In what sense?

I mean, guys, like, so I think there are a couple of different big buckets, but the first is that especially in like in psychotherapy, we learn about what's called ego states. And so our brain and the way we perceive the world, we see it in 3 ego states. There's the adult ego state, which is kind of like our rational side. So if you're solving a math problem or we're setting your phone number backwards, that's the adult ego state. Then you have your parent ego state. Your parent ego state uses language like, "You should do this, you should do that." Your parent is like you telling yourself what to do and kind of making sure that you've got guardrails. Then the third and final one is the child ego state. The child ego state is where we, we play, we're inspired, we're creatively enthused. But the child's also a little bit immature sometimes. And so there's a relationship between all three. And so number one, understanding what ego state that you are in in management situations is incredibly helpful. Like, am I in the right headspace for this conversation? I'm about to fire an employee. I'm about to have a, a performance review. I'm about to like lead a team meeting. Am I in the right space for that? And then the second thing is understanding that like, what ego state is the person that I'm talking to in, right? Is my feedback gonna be received as a parent talking to a child? Is my feedback gonna be received as an adult talking to an adult? And there are ways that we can use our language and our nonverbal cues to actually guide that. And I think for me it was, it made me realize that oftentimes if I was giving feedback, maybe it wasn't coming across the way I wanted it to, or when, you know, I, I wasn't gut-checking where I was at going into a feedback session like that. And so it's making me hyper-aware of not just like where I am and like where my locus is, but also where the, you know, the locus is of my team and my partners and my advisors. but I wouldn't have gotten that insight if not for therapy walking me through some of those thinking frameworks. So that would be one example. The other example is I think that, you know, we are all conditioned by the way we've grown up. And so whether it is our parents, whether it is, you know, that old soccer coach, whether it's like that old teacher, we inherited some thought patterns and conditioning from those people. And I think therapy allows you to look at those thought patterns and ask the question that you asked earlier, Adrian, which is, do these serve me? And actually most of the time they don't or they need to be tweaked. And so I've really enjoyed going through different logic patterns and saying, okay, how can I think about this in a better way, in a slower way, in a more thoughtful way as a result? So a lot of really huge benefits there.

Oh yeah.

This is fucking great. I haven't done therapy yet. I'm intrigued. I want to hear about your—

But do it with a leadership perspective. And that was, I pay out of pocket. I found a, I found out what is that?

Yeah, mine, mine isn't, mine is definitely less leadership and more just like Ben's a kid. Like what's on your mind? What do you need to solve?

Yeah.

I think for me there's levels to it. Like start somewhere and you can grow into something more like sophisticated. That's right. It's very surface level right now.

Tom, we're just talking about specific habits and things that serve you now versus things that haven't served you in the past. What are a handful of things that you do today, maybe yesterday, even as an example, were there things that I'm sure there's top of mind for you that I'm not sure if this is going to serve future Tom in a year, or just things that have been top of mind that you know you probably need to stop doing to get to whatever future state that you want to be in? Are there a handful of those?

I think so. And so one of the important habits that's helped me to really structure my life is, and this took a while to build the muscle for it, was again, the idea of weekly monthly, quarterly, annual reviews. And it's time, right? It's like, go carve out time, go right through the week, go right through the month, go reflect on the quarter. Are you aligned with your goals for the year? And it can be kind of a pain in the ass sometimes. That one took a while to build, but it's now part of my own personal operating system where if I don't do it, I'm going to get a little bit anxious. I'm like, oh, I got to get it done. In terms of the things that maybe don't serve me now, I did just cut out a lot of substances. New York's a big drinking city, especially a social drinking city. So I kind of finally went cold turkey on drinking and my energy and my headspace, my memory is all significantly improved. I'm like, "Oh, it's going to be hard to go back." And then same thing with other substances. I think in a world of legal weed, it's very easy to be like, "Oh yeah, pass a joint." It's like, "No, I think it's a good time to just kind of stay focused." So I think some of those lifestyle and healthcare changes. And the final thing, and this is more of a style of work evolution, is that as Lunchbox grows, I've had to move from being very much like, size up a problem, figure out the solution, build it, go, to now slowing down and really needing, needing to create buy-in from my team and creating understanding and just slowing down because every decision made at a different level of scale then has an impact on the business overall that is increasingly magnified. So one of the things I'm trying to unlearn is going from that, hey, you know, I started the company by myself. Right. And even before we had our first partner in the business, it was another like almost a year. And I had to go from like still wanting to operate that quickly and moving that fast to now being more careful about like, okay, so we put these processes in place. Like I can't step on my own processes. I want to go fast. Here are the areas I want to dive in into the business, but I have to do it in the right way. And so training that kind of instinctive reaction of like, okay, I see an apartment that I want to rebuild. I can't just do it anymore. I need to lay it out and make sure the team understands what's happening. And so it's, um, you know, it's been interesting to force myself to slow down, but I also am a big believer in that, like, the best CEOs get paid off of, like, 3 to 5 great decisions they make per year. You've got 365+ days, you know, it's like, you don't actually need to rush those decisions, but we convinced ourselves that we do with the other things that we take on or the goals that we set. And Ben, I'd be curious about kind of how you've handled this. Now with Smart Theme and, you know, your other creative projects.

Platter.

Platter. Platter, platter, platter. Smart Theme presented by Platter. This is an ad for Platter.

No, by the time this episode is live, it's not going to be called Smart Theme anymore.

Oh, right.

We have to move away.

Okay. Good to know. Restate the name, please.

Uh, so.

Please just call it Platter.

I mean, so Ben, kind of the same question back to you though, with juggling Platter and Birthday Party and the Turning Pro podcast. How do you think about juggling all these kind of competing priorities in a way that doesn't end up with conflict between them?

I think the biggest thing for me, uh, and I've started to talk about this a little bit on LinkedIn and something that I spend a lot of time on, but I'm obsessed with just the concept of being patient around building infrastructure and processes to alleviate time. Like, like, give your— I should say, give yourself time back. So for me, like, I was joking for the longest time that I've probably made more content than anyone else that just never has put out a piece of content yet. Like, I've been working at this infrastructure for almost a year now, and I was very patient around how I wanted to do it and how I actually thought about operationalizing it, because it's so important for me, number one, that anything that you're working on is synonymous with anything else, because if there's something that's disruptive, it's just going to fall apart across the board. Uh, that's number one. I think number two is making sure that you have an alignment with, like, the people that you're working with. So like my co-founders are very supportive. My co-founders on Platter are very supportive with what I'm doing because they fully understand the value of like what, what you're getting out of it and like where you're trying to go. And I think those are the two main things. And then the last thing is rigorous prioritization. So like that's something that I think I've gotten so much better at because when you have a lot of decisions to be made and you have a lot of things to get done, naturally you— there's only one of you and you can only be making so many decisions in real time. And so for me, it's like asking yourself the question of like, what needs to happen today in order for like something not to fall apart? So it's this concept of like figuring out where is there a fire, put it out, but getting like really good at that decision-making framework. And then, I mean, I'm realizing now that the concept of just like fueling each other, like different businesses fueling the others, it's real. Like, first guest on our podcast now a client. Uh, one of the brands from the run that I did from Montauk to Manhattan, now a client. Like, it's still early. Like, the podcast isn't even— we're talking about this and it hasn't even gone live yet. Uh, same thing around the vlog, like, Close to Client, it hasn't even gone live yet. And in my mind, when those media channels actually start to grow and it's out in the world, like, I think it's just going to compound. And so for me, it's optimizing consistency across the board.

Do you think that interplay between different projects you have going on is crucial to stay motivated, to stay interested? Because I also see value in maybe not hobbies, but also having some projects that have nothing to do with other things you're working on.

[Speaker:BEN_SHARF] For me, it's about curiosity. I think there's enough differentiation in what the projects are, but in the back of my mind, I'm always thinking, how can I make it be additive and not disruptive and negative for the other things doing, because at the end of the day, like, when you're working on something else, it's, it's time that's away from the core thing you're doing. But the way that you have a lot of, you know, like, I think a good example— it's an extreme example— but like, the CEO of Goldman Sachs is a DJ. All those hours he's spending DJing, he could be like, you know, thinking about how he's building his business. But like, having a creative outlet, I think, is an amazing thing because I also think it allows me to think about things differently, and I get new ideas from doing so. So like You know, some people choose to go party Friday, Saturday night, which is fine if that's what you want to do. But like, I'm filming YouTube videos on my weekends and I actually find that to be fun. So I don't know, I think, I think like putting yourself in different situations and not getting stale and how you're operating day to day, like to your point earlier, doing different things, I think it's so important to do to keep yourself sharp. And it all stems from curiosity.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, curiosity is a core value that, you know, you and I very much share, maybe all three of us. And part of what I think a lot of people miss about these side projects that aren't part of their main careers is that like there are still these like local skills in and around the area that you're training that you wouldn't have gotten reps on otherwise. Ben, let's, let's take you for example, right? Like your understanding of media production in the last year has gone up this crazy growth curve.

Dude, the last, the last month.

I mean, Adrian in setting up a podcast studio now understands AV at a level he didn't before. And I know like when I— we had a creative agency during COVID like that taught me how to produce media, how to set up a shoot, all the different pieces that go with it. And I leveraged that skill weekly with Lunchbox in terms of creating ads and coming up with like shoots on the fly and then just feeling comfortable in those situations. So the thing that I always come back to is it's like find ways that they can all tie together 100%. It's also just okay to go do it for the learning experience. Because as human beings, we store our experiences literally in our nerves. We store our memories. We also grow from the things that we do. So whether it is putting yourself in a new situation or challenging yourself or with a new project that you're excited about, or again, taking a crazy 100+ mile run from Montauk to Times Square, it's like, we grow from the adversity we present in front of ourselves, both in skills and experiences and in relationships. So it's no surprise to me, Ben, that you would, you would gain clients from this. You're, you're doing things that other people are not, which makes that unique and different in a world where everything seems to be the same.

I also think that, uh, to your point about the experiences, there's so many skills that you learn subconsciously that there's even like— I don't even do a great job of taking a step back and being like, whoa, I did this or I did that, because sometimes you're just so deep in it and you just figure it out and you're just learning on the fly. But when I reflected for the first time from this run, I was like, oh my God, brought together 37 people, a 17-person production team, and I was responsible for all of those people and how this happened. And I knew nothing about production or media before this, and it worked. And it's like, yeah, am I— does that mean I'm gonna make my software company into a production company? No, not at all. But like, there's definitely micro bits of things that I did or learned that help expedite my learning curve to be better off as I move forward along the path path of whatever it is that I work on in the future.

100%.

What are you doing right now that's making you a little uncomfortable? That's a little out of your sweet spot. Could be right now or on the horizon. We were talking about international festivals and Burning Man, different experiences that even though you're very much in the music and festival world, even that's a little out of your comfort zone.

I think learning how to kiteboard is probably up there on that list. I'm a bit of an adrenaline junkie and I'm trying to manage that.

You don't say.

But I've appreciated, A, being a novice at something again. And I've got a great friend named Marshall Mosher who throws these amazing camps all over the world. And he's like, "Do you want to go kite the Red Sea?" And I'm like, "I'd like to be able to say yes to that trip." And so the idea of lying with your back in the water with this giant 12-meter, 13-meter kite over your head that you have to dive at the ground at full speed, pull it back, yanks you out, and then you have to steer it by diving the kite. I mean, it's very hard to focus on anything else when you're in that experience. And I remember like I was in day 2 of a kite camp in January, and there's this one video of me diving the kite, completely bombed, lose my board, and I just go shoot like boom, 20 feet off into the distance. The next day I end up crashing into somebody else's kite and I like, our kites are entangled and fucking what's called the death loop. And they're like, you're getting pulled down the water and I'm getting pulled to this giant rock basin. The instructors are like, "Whatever you do, don't go to the rock basin." Day 2, go to the rock basin. And meanwhile, the waves are smashing up into the side of the rock. I'm like, "Okay, if I misplay this, I could be knocked out. I could be seriously hurt. Let's figure it out." I launch my board over the rock and like a seal, I'm desperately trying to climb onto the rock, smash it into my leg and have this huge bruise for 2 weeks, barely get on top. Go sit on the beach and I'm just like, "Ah, ah, ah." But at the same time, if I wasn't a novice at that thing, I wouldn't have had that experience and I wouldn't have been able to feel so present in the water. And at no point during that entire time was I thinking about Lunchbox or thinking about work. And so when I was able to come back to those things, I was able to do so with a fresh mind. So that's definitely made me pretty uncomfortable, but I'm loving it.

When you're in New York, I find it's fairly easy to find activities when you're traveling, when you're on the road, groups of new friends, you're out of your comfort zone, that it's easier to be like, "You know what? I'll go do this thing." Sometimes when I'm in New York or in Brooklyn or Manhattan or whatever it is and I'm hanging out with you guys or hanging out with our extended group of friends and colleagues, I'm on 24/7. And even little things that I'm trying to be present with or little hobbies like that that pull me in, it's still hard. In the back of my mind, I'm like, "All right, I need to do these 5 things and I need to get on Slack sooner than later," or I want to do this business thing. In New York, how have you yanked yourself out or put yourself maybe not in uncomfortable positions, but positions that force presence? Because I'm struggling with that.

Listen, you're in New York. We're all going to struggle with that. This is one of the most extroverted, everything's happening cities in the world where it's like every single day, the opportunity cost of missing that lunch or that coffee or that dinner or that phone call, it is pretty high. So I'd say that there's two things that at least I do that have helped me to kind of regulate that at like a medium level. The first is you have to have the power to say no and ask yourself, is this thing essential? And I think we convince ourselves that a lot more is essential than truly is. And you could, this is a city where you could have 7 banging dinners in a row, but it turns out that maybe 3 of them were actually more important than the others. And to use a Ben phrase, ruthlessly prioritize. Saying no to those other things and not feeling bad about it because saying no to those things is saying yes to being able to be fully present at a founder dinner that you're excited about or a friend's birthday dinner, or maybe you see a family member, right? That's the first thing. And not feeling bad about saying no. The second thing lives in the world of FOMO, right? I mean, social media has elevated people's experiences at levels that we've really never seen before. We've traded the, you know, the flashy Porsche to Instagram stories about the Porsche, to where you're at, or you're in Miami or whatever else. And so with FOMO, there's actually a relatively stoic way to approach it, which is to say that like, hey, if I wanted to be somewhere, I'd be somewhere. I'd be there. If I wanted to be at Formula 1, I'd be at Formula 1. If I wanted to be at Art Basel, I'd be at Art Basel. Like every— this group of people in particular, resourceful people. Like if I said, hey, get to this point on the world and I put a pin in a globe, this group of 3 people could figure out how to do it in a matter of days.

Ben would get an RV, most likely.

I think I'm out on that at this point.

Ben would show up to the location with a full-on solar campsite. But the point is, it's just like, if we have that agency, we have that choice. And so we can say, oh, I wish I was at XYZ, but it's like, yeah, but if you wanted to be there, you'd be there. And then if you didn't want to be there, then maybe there was something that was more important and more pressing that you said yes to that was more aligned with your current goals. So ultimately you put it back in your court. You're in control.

I think it's, uh, discipline and maturity. Because when you're, you know, 22-year-old Tom in this city for the first time, you're a yes man because you just like, you don't know what else to do. You're like, this is cool and this is cool and this is cool, and you do all these things. And then in your mind you think you're doing so much, but you're actually doing nothing. And I think it takes that level of maturity to say no and know that it's the right decision and be okay with it. Right, it's like you say no to going out that night and you don't actually go home and just sit on Instagram and watch videos of people who all went to the place that you said you weren't going to. Um, I think that's a good segue into talking about the concept of this podcast, which is turning pro, right? Like, what were the moments in your life where you, looking back, were like, I took things to the next level? And as Adrian and I like to describe, you get up from one poker table and go to a more higher stakes one because you're, you're elevating yourself.

Hmm. I think there are probably like 3 different moments. The one of the first was when I was in college, kind of you had referred to like the Friday and Saturday nights. When I was in college, junior year, Wake Forest University, big Greek presence. I just kind of got fed up with the idea that every single one of my weekends was ending the same way, right? It was like the fraternity party and like, we're going to have a good time and they're going to listen to music. But it was like the same music with the same people the same weekend. It was like this Hotel California loop. I was like, goddamn, this is so unfulfilling. And so I ended up calling one of my fraternity brothers. I'm like, hey, why don't we start a business this year? Like, let's, let's find something. And that business ended up being a kind of like a campus and supplyware business where we sold shoelaces to girls who had these Chuck Taylor shoes and phone wallets that we retailed to 25 stores across the country and little bracelets that we like. And that got us in the world of licensing. Now, was that business a smash hit success? Hell no. But for the first time I was like, wait a second, like you can line up all these different departments of marketing and product and finance and accounting. And that was like this big aha moment for me where, was the business a great business? No. But did it teach me to start thinking in that way? Yeah. So I think that was a big level up. And then coming outta school, I also was very aware of my shortcomings as a builder. And I was like, wow, like, you know, I've gotten a finance degree from a good university, but like, I don't really wanna go on Wall Street. What do I do with it? And so I ended up calling this guy named Dhruva Rajendra, who was one of the co-founders of Latch, which is a public company today. They make these brilliant commercial smart locks that are really popular in New York buildings and have become really popular, especially as Airbnb has risen. And so I was like, you know what, this guy thinks and sees the world in such a unique way. It's like, how can I be in that room? So I called him. I'm like, listen, I will work for you for free. Um, just for the opportunity to learn from you. And a few months later, he was nice enough to put me on the payroll, but I ended up working with him for, you know, about a year and a half. And just, you know, like, he's like, all right, go find me 1,000 users on this app that we're building. Go figure out how we're gonna go close $100,000 of business this month. Go figure out how we're going to grow this cohort of users to the next level. And like, and, and, and in doing so, he put me through like this experimentation framework where like I understood what agile development was. I understood how to experiment and measure results. I understand how to interview people. And then immediately taking that skillset, you know, in 2018, I'd say like the third moment was right after a music festival called Ultra Music Festival where, you know, given that those two prior pieces of context, again, coming back to we learn from our experiences, then having a day where, you know, we're at a major music festival and our bags get taken by security for not following the bag policies for being too big. They weren't, We go to the water lines, we stand in these hour-long water lines because everybody's got like their dad's camping and hydration pack that takes several minutes to refill because it's not adapted for rapid refill. It's like, you know, you want to use it in your kitchen, whatever. And then finally at the end of the day, we had our friends have their phones get stolen and we're walking out of this major music festival that people have paid good money to be at and often the first dollars of their disposable income. And we're like, why isn't the experience living up? To what people paid for. And so that third moment for me was saying, hey, I think there's something here. And then beginning to nights and weekends while working for Troova, um, designing the lunchbox, interviewing hundreds of people, going through different festivals, and then skipping the festival and just walking around the campsite. I'm like, I've got my captive audience here that I can just get insane reps on. Like, you know, do you care about security at events? Have you, have you ever had issues with, with phone loss? Have you ever had an issue with the water line? Whatever else. And that led to the blueprint of the, the Lunchbox Hydration Pack, which is our hero product today. And, and, and, you know, festival crowds all over the country and hopefully the world. So each one of my kind of 3 different experiences were tied to trying something new or taking a risk. Maybe that didn't resonate with my peers who were gonna go work at Frito-Lay or Barclays or investment banking, um, or just trying to take that risk. And like, no matter what, I knew that even if I failed, even if everything went to zero, even if Lunchbox goes to zero, I'll have learned from those experiences and then that will become kind of like this core part of who I am. And it's in chasing those experiences that I've had those turning pro moments over time.

So if you could go back and tell 18-year-old Tom something that you wish you knew then that you know now, what would it be?

It's okay to do the thing that you want to do. You don't have to do it because other people are doing it. Same question to you, Adrian. What would you tell yourself at 18?

Damn good question. Put me on the spot. Probably always, always lead with empathy and kindness no matter what in every single interaction. Because most of the time, even I experience this now, most of the time when someone's a little angry or like a little annoyed at you for something or just have an attitude, they're just dealing with shit. Always dealing with shit. It could be at home, it could be personal, it could be they just got in a fight with their boyfriend or girlfriend. Usually anger doesn't come out of nowhere. And so I always try to approach that. Now we're almost a 10-person team. We have worked with 100+ teams now constantly. Most of our day-to-day is just dealing with people. It's, "Okay, problem brought to you by X person. It's Tom's job to deal with it and to route resources the right way." And so showing up to every interaction, I wish I knew that, whether friends in college or first colleagues out of college, I wish I knew that anytime, usually people are just showing up with their own baggage. It's like, hey, it's okay. I understand where you're coming from. Let's just talk about this as friends. Let's try to like problem solve together. What about you?

I mean, I think I have a couple, but like if I were to draw on one right now in the current moment in my life, it would be like seeking out uncomfortable situations is a good thing. It usually means you're growing. Don't shy away from it. I think like oftentimes I see people do the thing that feels comfortable because it's easy. Typically, when you're in that state of mind, you're not actually growing and forcing yourself outside of your comfort zone. And for me, reflecting on the last couple of years, I think a lot of the leaps and bounds that I've made both personally and professionally have been because I forced myself to do things I was curious about that were scary, that prevented me from doing it for the longest time.

What are you scared about right now?

Right now?

What keeps you up? Like, ah, fuck, maybe this won't work.

Yeah, I think it's, uh, I think it's continuing to like stay consistent, right? Like, I'm doing a lot right now and I'm exerting a lot of energy, and I think that I want to be able to sustain this. And so for me, it's like continuing to find every little micro way to make an improvement, whether it's giving myself back 10 minutes every day or empowering someone else to be a little bit more productive. Uh, because I know that like in the journey that I'm in right now, I'm actually in its infancy stage across the board on all the things that I'm working on, right? Like, I think by the time this episode is live, what I'm going to be saying is past tense, but like the podcast is probably going to launch in September— August or September. The YouTube channel is launching in August. Uh, the rebrand with Platter is launching early September, right? So like, these are things that I've been working on for like over a year, collect— almost 2 years collectively, and like nothing has actually really hit the public yet. And so like, it's going to be more important now than ever to be able to stay consistent because now you're going to get real-world feedback on a level that you never have. And I need to be able to be reactive, and I need to be able to stay on top of my game to continue to, to capitalize on the opportunistic things that will come of it, but also to be able to handle like the negative things that are going to come from it. And so for me, it's like just making sure that I'm staying consistent and finding ways to do so.

As you laid out some of kind of like your turning pro moments, for lack of a better term, at each of— let's frame it on the most recent one where you kind of leveled up in some way personally, professionally. Maybe that's over the past few years, right? What have you had to sacrifice in that process of turning pro or taking certain things more seriously?

Yeah, I think the Dinner Series for me was a bit of an interesting ride where I've never really thrown events of that size before, and I kind of nuked my social life in 2022 just so I could kind of pull it off where it's coordinating groups of 20 to 25 founders in 10 different locations with full logistics. I was also running event media after movies. And I think that the first time I sat down at a table with people and I'm like, all right, I took a page out of Noah Friedman's book, a friend of ours, I was like, all right, let's introduce everybody in the room. And I love pitching. It's like one of my favorite things in the entire world. And I just went around and ripped 20 pitches of everybody's company in the room. And for me, I was like, I have no idea if I'm gonna be able to pull this off. I don't know if I'm gonna stutter. I don't know if I'm gonna mess it up. But then when I was done and then led the questions over the course of dinner, I'm like, oh, okay, that's something I can do. And I think getting over that moment of butterflies and the discomfort and then actually leaning into that now it's just like an autopilot feature I have. But, but at one point it was uncomfortable. And so I think that like there was the sacrifice of like, okay, what else am I giving up? Well, I'm giving up, um, friends, time with my friends, time with my family. I'm giving up the ability to enjoy New York City. But I was like, yeah, but like I'm growing as a result of it. And, and now I have like this insane network that spans all over the United States of like top direct-to-consumer founders and retail founders where, you know, I'll help them however I can. And I know that the same is, uh, the same is true for me. But I wouldn't have had that if I didn't make that decision. So those two moments were being uncomfortable at the head of that table and like, "All right, is this something I can do?" And then the second part is also leaning in and saying, "Hey, this is more important to me right now because later on I want to be able to take the time to be slower with my friends and my family and with my hobbies." And so it's really the choice.

[Speaker:TIM_FERRISS] How do you think about work-life balance and delineating between business and personal, or do you see those as one and the same?

What is work-life balance? Yeah.

Um, this is personal. This is your social life right here.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, like a little bit.

This is what I do for fun.

No, yeah.

No, I mean, like I hung out with my friends Friday morning. I didn't work.

Uh, yeah. But I mean, like, I mean, that, that, that is a little bit of the narrative.

Yeah.

Um, so I've noticed that, um, if I'm doing nothing, I'm, I'm uncomfortable, which is something I'm working on. And so my, my work-life balance is like, all right, so I've got like my work life where it's like, all right, we've got our revenue targets. Hold on.

Doing nothing is an amazing thing.

You should challenge yourself to do more of nothing.

I, I can—

coming from someone— I can write, like, I, like, sit in stillness for just 10 minutes a day and just like do it. It's an— I suck at it, which is why it's easy for me to tell you to do it.

I was gonna say that the pot called the kettle black here, Ben.

Yes.

Um, but one of the, uh, one of the things that I've realized is that, okay, work-life balance for me is like maintaining those routines, occasionally taking a week full, like a full weekend off I'm generally on for 6 days a week. And like, it's one of those things where it's like, I realize that work-life balance for me is like, I still love bringing people together personally and professionally. And so the ways I do relax and recharge is, for example, like we're starting up a new concept right now called Reading Rhythms, where New York, it's really hard to just like go read somewhere because everyone's like, come to my birthday party, come to this, come to that. And so we're starting to create these mindful spaces that are like these DJ affairs where you just kind of group up with people and you read and you look around.

Such a crazy concept.

Everybody's reading and for like 15 minutes, then you'll talk about like, you know, what is a concept that you're excited about with the book with the person next to you? Then you'll read again. That's it. And then at the end, everybody shares one thing with their, um, from their book with the entire group. Uh, my roommate Ben now like turned into like this incredible freestyler. So he'll freestyle rap recap the entire thing. And, and like for me, like that is the life part of my work-life balance. It's like I'm still coordinating people and getting people over and everything else, but like that to me is really fulfilling. And so like when people say work-life balance, it's not like doing things, not doing things. It's like doing things that, okay, you need to do cuz you're on a schedule and quarterly plans and you've got investor money in, in, in at hand. And then also doing things in your personal life that align with your values that make you feel like you're able to fully express. And so For me, it's about holding the tension between those. And I think you've done a good job with that with the podcast and Birthday Party. Again, these are stressful as hell things, but it's worth it.

Yeah, I can't agree more. I think something that you mentioned around giving what you have to give up or what you have to trade off to be able to do these things is so important. And that just really stuck with me because so many people will see, like, If I just met you and I see everything you're doing and I'm so impressed, and then I also see you posting on Instagram or Twitter or whatever it is, I'm like, "Fuck, he's got it all." And I think it's really important for people to be able to say, "No, I didn't really have a social life for a year," because no one wants to talk about that. I'm like, "Hey, no, there are trade-offs. Did I learn all these skills? Do I have this killer dinner party series that everyone talks about? Do I have this thriving business? Do I have all these other side projects I'm working on?" but like they're trade-offs. And I think a lot of people don't want to talk about those. I'm curious for you two right now, you have so much going on. Like, what are you aware of that you're like, for the time being, I'm going to put aside?

So there's two points I want to make. I think the first one, it's just like ironic timing. I actually went for a walk last night with my best friend and he looked me in the eyes. He's like, I'm probably one of the only people in your life who feels comfortable saying this to you, but like you need to put more energy into the relationships you care about. Uh, he's like, I don't give a shit how busy you are. I don't care what you're doing. Like, if relationships are slipping, like, you can't blame anyone but yourself because you're doing so much right now that— and I, I'm the one who says this, that I have to actually act it— is like, you always make time for the things that matter to you and like your priorities. I hate when someone's like, oh, I don't have time. It's like, if the founder of Netflix had time to go to dinner with his wife at 5 PM every Tuesday from the moment he built the company till now, like, you can find time also. Um, So I think that's the first thing is like relationship management is very difficult when you're moving at a million miles a minute all the time because I don't, I don't have 15 minutes on a Tuesday at 2 o'clock to just be like texting about, you know, like what the Buffalo Bills just did on their trade. Like yeah, maybe I do, but it's— I have way too many things going on that I was gonna say.

I feel like you know, but that one in particular—

no, but truly though, it's like, like there's things that will just slip by me because it's just not the top priority. Um, so that's like the first thing. And then the other thing is that— and I'm curious how you guys feel about this— I don't care what anyone says, like, building is lonely. Like, it is. Building your own thing when you're on your own path, yeah, like, you have friends to talk to about, and you have people you can lean on, but like, when you're trying to build out a vision that no one else really understands to the level in which you do, like, there are moments where it's like, you know, let sitting in your room at 11 PM working on like an investor update by yourself, like there's moments where I'm like, damn, this is, this is a little bit lonely. But like, you— the trade-off is doing those things to then enable yourself to be in situations like this where it's so fulfilling and it's so amazing. But the thing that people don't see when they're watching this podcast episode is the other things you're doing to allow yourself to have the opportunity to do this.

Yeah, I think even things as small as— I was hanging out with Karina last night, we were watching TV We're hanging out, we're about to watch the next episode, and I was like, it was like 10, it was very early, and I was like, I gotta go to bed. He's like, why? I'm like, I got the podcast tomorrow and I'm gonna be filming all day, and so I need to wake up really early and like knock out the shit because all of us doing this right now is us not working on our business, right? It's like Friday in the morning, right? We should probably be doing that. And so it's a trade-off that again, no one sees, but it's like, hey, I just like can't do this right now. I think as long as you're As long as you, A, are aware of the trade-offs and are comfortable with them and also communicate to people that really care about you, and it could be romantic relationship, it could be your family, like, "Hey, I can't go on this trip and I may not be as in touch as I should be right now because the next 2 months for you coming up, August, September, hey, this is going to be a sprint. And so even little things, if I'm not responding to you right away, I'm not being rude. I just got a lot on my plate." And I think communicating that proactively to people that care about you is really, really important.

How do you— I'm actually curious how you think about relationship management just in general, in terms of identifying the people in your life where it's— it needs to be a much more frequent touch base versus those friends where it's like you might not talk for 2 months, but when you do, it's like you guys never left and you were together yesterday is like the feeling you get. Do you have a framework for how you think about relationship management? Because I mean, even with you as well, with like hosting these dinners, you're you're talking to hundreds of people all the time and it's impossible to keep the same level of relationship across the board. Like, what are your levers or like frameworks that you use to help you ensure that you're not like letting a relationship slip? And slip is a loose term, but in terms of where you think that relationship should be relative to where it might net out.

No, it's a good question. I think most A-players give other people the benefit of the doubt that they're freaking busy. And so if we haven't talked for 2, 3 days, my relationship with either of you guys doesn't change. If we haven't talked for 3 weeks, my relationship with you guys doesn't change. If we haven't talked for a year, okay, that's a different story. But the fact of the matter is within the types of people that we're cultivating, everybody understands because they're busy too. Now the flip side of that is like, all right, well, if you want to have a lot of one-to-many surface area, then that's where I think it is helpful to be a gregarious gatherer, right? Where you are the one saying, hey, I've got dinner tonight. Who can have dinner with me where not only are they going to get value from meeting each other, but I also get to see multiple people that I care about, right? And it's kind of like the twofer, or it's like, okay, I'm going to have a rooftop thing tonight and who would enjoy the topics that we're going to discuss and bring those people together? So a lot of my— I don't want to say networking because that's not the right label, but a lot of the ways that I collect people and like to connect people is through these community-oriented events. Because again, then I can walk around and have 20 great conversations with people where now I don't have to have 20 coffees in the next month, right? It's like, and now I can reserve those slots for people I'm meeting for like the first time, or maybe that is more of a business context. People I'm comfortable with who are welcome in my space on a routine basis, I want them to be there. And they also, by the way, because I've self-selected type of people I spend my time with, chances are there's a 90% plus hit rate on you're gonna have a great conversation with somebody else at an event that I'm throwing if we are aligned values. And so I think it's really just treating the social events that you invest in. And again, there are some logistics around it as this guy knows, but it's worth it.

Yeah. I think something I'm trying to get better at is specifically organizing athletic groups. You're very good at this. You're probably good at this because you're very athletic, but I always—

Kind of athletic.

Yeah. Get Ben on a tennis court and we'll see.

We'll see. But my default reaction is always, let's get a dinner together. Let's get a coffee together. The one time we did a running group, Tom slept in. But increasingly, you're very good at this, but I connect with people so much just through sweating together and going through hardship together, especially a grueling workout or something like that. I've only met your roommate once or twice. And I already consider him a friend literally just because we ran together and then we just raced for 20 minutes.

Love it.

Um, and immediately I was like, all right, you're my boy, cool. Um, you can hit me up whenever, I'm sure we'll collaborate. And just that, that connection goes so much deeper than just like a coffee in the morning or something.

So there's two points to make. I think the first one is I didn't even think about that at all until I stopped drinking. Uh, I think the sobriety piece was a recalibration around using fitness as a means of networking. And I think the second one is that like a very easy way to either weed out people or identify high performers is finding the ones who are down to do hard things for fun. Yeah, as crazy as it sounds. Like, dude, sitting in an RV for a day and a half with John Korn, who's a CMO of Athletic Greens, and like watching this shit run 30+ miles at a sub-7-minute pace was just like one of the most badass things I've ever seen. This guy's got responsibilities across a billion-dollar company, yet he's choosing to do this for fun. He kind of just like agreed, didn't know what he was showing up to do. I'm like, that's so inspiring. But like, those are also the type of people that you want to spend your time with. Well, again, it depends what you enjoy and what your preferences are, but for me, based on like the trajectory where I'm going, those are the type of people that I want to surround myself with. And so I think like when you stay committed to who you are as an individual and force yourself to continue to do the things you like to do, you'll just do a better job of finding the people— finding people to do the things you want to do instead of like, uh, doing other things at the expense of staying true to yourself.

Yeah.

So it's like saying yes to go get a drink with someone, even if that's not actually how you want to spend your time. You're in the driver's seat of actually bringing people into the activities you want to do instead of being like a sheep and following along.

Over the next— for you, for the rest of H2 2023, what is— what are you most excited about? What are a handful of things that you're excited about but a little uncomfortable with that you've never done before? Business, personal, whatever.

[Speaker:BEN_SHARF] On the business side, Lunchbox has been really an organic company for the last 5 years, and it's been wonderful to see that community build. But really flexing our paid media muscles and diving into that problem full tilt has been uncomfortable because it's forcing me to learn skills that I don't necessarily have down pat, but I will very soon. And I've been lucky to be mentored by some great people along the way. That's been a big one. And like that also is going to determine how we expand into the UK and Australia, whether that's viable or not. So I've got a lot riding on like, how is that going to work? And then on the personal side, I've been in just kind of like this insane learning sprint this year. Like I'm putting down like a book a week right now and like I'm socializing less as a result to do so. Touching up on corporate finance skills. I'm blasting through a textbook right now. A lot of just like, a lot of just, you know, reading.

You're saying these things so casually, dude. That's bananas.

I did. It's a learning time, you know. It's like, it just, it feels like a textbook. Yeah, no. Well, I had it from before.

No, that's not the point. It's the fact that you're like, wow, I commend you.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, like, I'm very much someone who's learned. I learned by doing in real world situations. Like, I can't get myself to spend time building like hypothetical shit. So if like buy a textbook, like you're reading how to build a DCF, discounted cash flow model, and you're literally just building one just to build it, to learn it. Like, that's so impressive that you're finding the discipline to sacrifice other things to, to do that. I commend you for that.

Yeah. Um, and then I think the final thing is, and this is the most uncomfortable thing, is actually saying no to opportunities. Um, and that's been the weirdest ones, like, because the network is spread out the way it is, like, I see a lot of really cool things that I want to be involved in And the way my mind works is I can visualize what it looks like and how it's going to work and all these things. I'm like, but no, I can't be involved right now. And I'm really trying to put my energy into Lunchbox and get that to where it needs to be. And Ben, this is something you and I have talked about extensively. So honestly, I'd say the most uncomfortable thing that I keep saying this year is saying no.

I honestly, I think I could have answered that question for him.

Yeah, 100%.

Like the shiny object syndrome is something that Tom and I talked about a lot. Oh my God. Tom called me a couple months ago and he was like, dude, I cut out all the shit, like, it's lunchbox. And I was like so excited to hear it because I— when he operates, he operates. And the fact that he's still making progress with all the other things he was doing— like, I'm a social person, Tom is me times 10, uh, and so to hear that, it's, it's pretty awesome.

Yeah, then I'm very appreciative of that, of those park walks. Ben and I, over the course of like 3 months, we're like, all right, things that we need to knock out: fix Tom's overcommitment, figure out what we're going to name Platter, figure out how we're going to turn SmartTheme into the next big thing. It's been, it's been a lot of fun, but wouldn't change it, wouldn't change a thing.

Uh, we have a few minutes left here. I have a couple questions that I've asked a lot of our previous guests because I just love the answers we get. But one is, um, what do you— no, these are, these are actually going against the grain. Uh, what do you think are the 3 consistencies of high performers?

Um, holding their word, sticking to a schedule, and finding creative outlets.

And then another question I had is, what's one class in college you wish you would have paid more attention to?

Um, quantitative analysis in my finance degree. It was one of those things where You know, there may have been a test bank that was available as a result of my fraternity, and I was like, oh, this is fine. And then literally 2 years out, I was kicking myself. I'm like, right now I need to relearn bid selection. I'm like, why couldn't I just pay attention the first time around? So there are no shortcuts.

We're going rapid fire. What's the best advice your father ever gave you?

Damn.

Your face right now is iconic. It's gonna be the clip.

That's the thumbnail on this episode.

Yeah, like, um, if this is the path you choose, do it right.

What's your biggest regret?

I don't live in a world of regrets.

If Lunchbox— if Lunchbox fails, why?

Because I didn't focus enough.

It's a damn good answer. I got one. Top 3 favorite artists currently, all time.

Currently, all time. Currently, all time.

Uh, I'll give you my top 3, um, of like all music. The Red Hot Chili Peppers is definitely in my top 3. Uh, DJ named Lane 8, definitely in my top 3. And then I'd say the last is probably— oh man, like there's like 15 people competing for that third spot right now.

Well, there can only be one third.

Lumineers.

Okay, and what's your favorite festival?

Uh, Electric Forest in Rothbury, Michigan.

And who's one artist you haven't seen yet that you wish you could, or you will?

Very quick, Fred Again.

You've never seen Fred Again?

I've hung out with him, but I've never seen him.

Did you get tickets for the show in Forest Hills?

Uh, I, I'm considering it, but we've got ACL immediately afterwards, so it's a bit of a send.

Got it.

What's one thing that you want the listeners to know, that you want them to walk away from this episode with?

Doing what feels good is actually a really good barometer of the things that work in life, whether it's in your friendships, whether it's in your professional life, whether it is in the places that scare you. Trust your gut. Your gut knows more than you could possibly ever imagine. And when you lean into the things that feel good, chances are you find more things that feel good on the other side.

I left Tom's birthday the other week. This is just a side tangent because I think you'll find this funny, but I left your birthday the other week and sorry, Mom, for saying this, but is the closest I've ever gotten to wanting a tattoo. I met one of your friends. I forgot her name. Charlotte?

Charlotte.

I met your friend Charlotte.

We love Charlotte.

And I don't even know how this came up. I think we were talking about Ryan's tattoos, my roommate, because he's sorry to his mom too. He's got a ton of those if somehow she hears this. But she made a comment about something that resonated with her and it was, all your intuitions are true.

All your intuitions are true.

And when she said that to me, I was like, in my mind I go, I would love to just read that on my leg every single day.

I think you would look great with a tramp stamp.

I'm—

I don't know. I have— I don't have any tattoos. I'm not opposed to it, but I just don't. And that's the closest I've gotten. Yeah, actually, last question, we'll wrap up here. If you were to get a tattoo— do you have any?

I do have it.

Your next tattoo, what would it be?

I do. My next tattoo, or you want to hear about my existing tattoo next? Um, I think my, my next tattoo would be the phrase "be here now" in— on like my wrist or inside my finger or whatever. And constantly just this reminder to be present in every moment. Is my attention wavering? Be here now. Am I looking at my phone? No, be here now. Am I looking away at a dinner? Be here now. And constantly using that to re-anchor myself in the present.

Love that. Tom, this has been awesome, man. Appreciate you coming on. If you want to look at the camera, let the people know where they could find you, both you personal and professionally.

Yeah, you can find Lunchbox at lunchboxpacks.com and we're @lunchboxpacks on all channels. Twitter, I am @TZWOR, and on Instagram I am @RealTomWar, R-E-A-L-T-O-M-W-O-R. And to Ben and Adrian, thank you guys so much for having me on the pod. Love you guys' insightful and thoughtful questions as always, and can't wait for the next one.

Thank you, sir.

Cut.

Cut.

Can I— can I ask you guys for a favor, actually?

Yeah, what's up?

Do you want to clip something?

No, I do. Can I— can you ask me a story about festival theft? Because I actually need to—

I need it.

Whatever clips you need. I need some, uh, yeah. Yeah, I need some ad reads of me talking about theft at festivals, and I need like a couple versions. So it would be amazing if I could just rip through like 3 of those.

You want your shirt like this? Do you want it? You good? You want your shirt down? I don't know what your festival audience is.

No, no, it's fine.

Do I take it off?

If you're using this for—

I can get you one of my party shirts if you want to change.

Uh, you're using this for an ad read. I want it to be useful.

Yeah.

Do you want me to go get you a lunchbox back?

Um, no, I'm good for now. So basically, it would be helpful.

Tell me more about festival theft.

Yeah, like, do people— is theft really a problem at festivals?

Cool. 1, 2, 3. Which is, is theft really a problem at festivals?

So what's crazy is that people walk into festivals with these $1,000 iPhones and then they're surprised when they're a target or people want to take them away. I think one of the, uh, one of the things that led to us starting Lunchbox is because we wanted to help people protect their phones and protect their belongings. Because all of a sudden that $500 festival ticket becomes a $1,500 festival ticket if a phone's stolen. And instead of spending day 3 listening to your favorite artist, Now you're at the Verizon store or the AT&T store with no way to contact your mom, no way to get in touch with your friend. You can't get back into your Airbnb, you can't call your Uber home. Your weekend is shut down. And it's kind of crazy how it happens. You've got gangs of pickpockets that will go in and slice bags. One person will distract you while the other person yanks your phone out of a back pocket. Sometimes it's as easy as, you know, if somebody's looking at the stage with their backpack open, somebody will reach in and pretend like they're on their phone and walk away with your devices. And it's truly become an epidemic where recently at Beyond Wonderland in California, uh, one thief was caught with over 300 phones and there's this viral video of all these different phones in this huge pile on the ground. That is an insane amount of merchandise value. That's crazy. But more importantly, that's 300 people's lifelines to their friends, to their media from the weekend, to their memories that they're never gonna get back. So we built Lunchbox to help people protect their belongings, but most, most importantly, secure your phone at events cuz everybody's holding this VIP $1,000 item that really changes everything, especially when it's lost.

Love it. 300?

Dude, isn't that crazy?

That's a true story.

Yeah.

Holy shit.

You want a different variant?

Yeah, give me, give me, um, like, um, like, have you ever been a victim of theft at festivals?

Have you ever personally been a victim of theft at festivals?

Yeah. Yeah. I, I was blown away. I was at Okeechobee in, uh, in 2016, which is this amazing music festival in Florida. And I was with a couple different friends and somebody had walked in front of me and they started screaming, "Phone! Phone!" So we all started looking around, but when somebody screams "phone," you start tapping your pockets and you give away the location of your phone. All of a sudden we turned around and then we're like, "Wait, where's our phone?" And 3 of us in our group had been hit, just yanked out of pockets, bags, whatever else. We'd given away our location and these guys were gone. And I think the thing that blows my mind is that this isn't an infrequent occurrence. This happens at festivals all over the country. This happens at nightclubs. This happens at bars. Remember, the $1,000 iPhone that has a ton of secondary market value, so it's a target. And more importantly, it's your lifeline, right? It's the way you call your Uber home. It's the way you're getting to an afterparty. It's the way you're sharing media with your friends, the way you're calling your mom after the event, if you're calling your mom after the event. So I think for us, like, that was a big reason of why we were inspired to start Lunchbox, to help people secure their belongings when they were in crowds so they can focus on the experience that they're having rather than being so focused on losing the $1,000 iPhone. That is their lifeline to the world. Okay. Let's do one more.

Yeah. What do you want?

Maybe this one is about— I liked a variation of the first one. Maybe ask me, does theft really happen at events? I'll talk about like Coachella.

Does theft really happen at events?

Yeah. One more time with a little bit more kiff.

Does theft really happen? All right, Tom. Does theft really happen at events?

Festivalgoers don't know this, but But every single time somebody's going to a festival, they probably have a $1,000 iPhone on them, and it is a target. Whether it's Coachella or Lollapalooza or ACL, every single year there are these crazy reports that come out of hundreds of phones stolen at ACL, hundreds of phones stolen at Coachella, and people don't realize it's every single year. And that's just the phones that we know got stolen. So yeah, people go to events just to take attendees' phones while they're on a substance, while they're intoxicated, while they're not focused, or even just purely pickpocketed because every one of those phones has value on the secondary market, but worst off, all these attendees, this is their lifeline to their friends, to their families, to the Airbnb that they're going to go stay at, to the Uber that's going to take them home. So not only are they at Target because of these valuable items, but now these poor attendees unfortunately can't even connect to the world in the same way. So now their moms panicked because they can't hear from them. Now their friends are like, "Where's Cynthia? Where's Amanda? Where's Jack? Where's Ben?" and it causes real problems, especially in the live event world. And so that's a big part of the reason why we created Lunchbox Packs, which was to create secure products to help lock down your phone at events, get into different venues, improve your live event experiences. But instead of being so worried about where's your phone or where's your wallet, listen, it's safe, it's secure. Enjoy the experience the way it's meant to be enjoyed because you deserve that.

Love it.