#020: Natassia Miller - Reinventing the Future of Consumer Wellness

I had a friend basically ask me about this, and he was like, I don't know how to not confront my girlfriend, but I don't know how to tell her to stop posting a lot of these bikini pictures.

I think the whole point is if you decide to be in a relationship with someone who is already posting bikini photos, you're accepting her that way. If you're with someone who then tries to change you after you guys are established, you should accept your partner for who they are. And if that bothers you, probably shouldn't be with that person. I think the murky line is like, how is this going to affect your relationship? Is it resolvable?

Natasha Miller is the founder and CEO of Wanderlust, a sexual wellness company for couples based in New York City. Natasha previously co-founded Evolna, a health and wellness company scaling a new movement modality focused on mental health and body neutrality. In this episode, we cover how partners should communicate, the intersection of e-commerce and sexual wellness, and content creation within an outdated and stigmatized health industry. Welcome back back with the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Natasha Miller from Wanderlust joining us. Thanks for joining today.

Thank you guys, I'm really excited.

So you are very different than all the guests that we've had on this podcast, which I'm super excited about. I think the best place to start is for you to just give the audience a quick backstory about like what you're working on and how you got into this realm.

So Wanderlust is a sexual wellness company for couples. Um, we help you build a fulfilling sex life and relationship. And I got into it. I used to work in finance, started another wellness company that faced a lot of headwinds during COVID After a year and a half, um, just realized that it was time to leave and think about the next step. I really enjoyed entrepreneurship and I was thinking about what are the things that truly drive my curiosity. Um, I think that's more important than passion because, you know, when you're really curious, and you work to understand and get better at it, eventually, like, you become passionate about it. So I have always talked about sex and relationships very easily with my friends, and I've always been fascinated by people's own experiences with these two subjects. And I noticed that since 2018, '19, the sexual wellness space was going through a rebranding with, you know, the Mauds and Dames of the world. And it's, it's an industry that's still in its infancy. It's not saturated. There's a lot of space to grow. So I decided to start my own sexual wellness company.

Why do you think it's like lagging behind some other industries?

I mean, it's super taboo, right? And like, it's— I mean, it still is. And for so many years you had that seedy sex shop that you were embarrassed to see yourself walking into. Um, all of the products were really aimed towards the male gaze. And eventually, more recently, you've had, you know, people start building tasteful products that people actually want to engage in and decorate their bedside tables with and not feel so embarrassed about it. So we're still like, we're in a more open era where people are willing to educate themselves on this and like purchase their own vibrators and lubes and whatnot. But it's still taboo. Like we're, we're talking about, you know, hundreds of years of shame. You're not going to eradicate that in less than a decade.

I have a, I have a data question. I don't know if you have the answer to this, but it just came to me as you were speaking. Do you know what percentage of couples actually like engage in sex with like extra or external like items, whether that's like vibrators or other types of toys? Like, I wonder what percentage of people go through their whole life never experimenting with anything in that realm.

Yeah, I don't have that data, but the hard thing when you are doing surveys around sex and relationships is that people have a really hard time being honest about their situation. So there's like, every time I share data points, I always think like it's either a lot more than this or a lot less, right? Like depending on the type of question. But it's definitely, I mean, it's, it's, um, it's an industry that's growing around 7% a year. So clearly more people are purchasing, you know, toys and accessories and lube.

What's the most fascinating data point that you have seen on your journey where you're like, oh my God, I can't believe that?

Great question.

75% of men experience arousal spontaneously. They'll look or they'll think of something and they're hard, they're aroused. Um, 75% of women experience pleasure responsively, so it— they only get aroused after things start heating up. And so there's a huge issue in the market where You have a lot of couples that have mismatched libidos and are really frustrated that they're not able to find that groove and connect intimately on a more regular basis because a lot of people think that they should feel aroused spontaneously. And if it doesn't happen that way, then it means that they're not— that it's just not going to happen. And so then sex is completely off the table for good instead of actually like taking the time to explore.

But what about like— and I'm assuming this is a normal thing— it's like when you have a new partner, it's like you're like bunny rabbits, like, right? It's, it's new, you're doing it all the time. And then I feel like the natural progression as time goes on, it just deteriorates. And then you get to what you just said about sexless marriage is like way more common than people think. Why is that? Do you know?

Well, because we've been taught that sex needs to be spontaneous and effortless. That's how porn has taught us that sex should be. It's how Hollywood— so then when you're finally in a relationship and you're past like the 6-month mark where things tend to become a little bit more stable, you know, in the beginning like you're wanting to have sex multiple times a day. It, it— you desire that person so much and it's it's novelty as well, right? So then when you're— you really— you, you built that love for that person, things calm down, and then suddenly you're like, shit, like, I don't desire them as much anymore, but I love them very much. Like, what do we do? Um, and it just takes effort for you to cultivate that sensuality and seduction and eroticism on a daily basis. But we prioritize being extremely productive with our jobs and our nutrition and our exercise. And then we, we really leave the worst of us to our partners because we arrive home at the end of the day exhausted and we just have a really hard time connecting. And so it's really easy for you to think that, like, your sex life is not as important as the rest of your, uh, the rest of your life, you know? And you're like, I just don't have time for this. But, uh, sex is really important for you to build a healthy relationship long-term. They've done studies where, um, this is another like funny data point. They did a study where apparently people are happier if they have more frequent sex up to once a week. So if it's more than once a week, this doesn't apply. They're happier having more frequent sex than they would be having an extra $50,000 in their bank account.

Mm-hmm. That's a crazy stat.

Yeah, so it's one of these things where, you know, we, we underestimate the power that sex— and it's about connection, right? It's not about the intercourse itself. Then the whole conversation about sex being equated to intercourse is something that we're also dismantling and wanting people to understand that it should be a lot more than that. And the reason why a lot of couples also hit that wall specifically heterosexual couples, but they hit that wall because they think that it needs to be intercourse and like foreplay is completely forgotten. But sex is actually so much more than that. Um, so I forgot how we got here, but yeah, I mean, I think we just— we have a very limited understanding of what our sex lives can, can really entail and the importance that it takes on on our relationships.

I have a lot of questions. Okay, one that I do want to touch on: why is porn such an epidemic, especially for young guys?

Because we don't receive the proper sex education. Um, only 39 states out of the 50 are required to have sex education, and only half of those 39 states require them to be medically, medically accurate. So if you— and if you think about it, I don't know about your sex education, but I remember about mine, it was you just kind of learned about putting on a condom and what are the STIs that you're going to potentially get.

But I don't even remember my, like, yeah, exactly.

That was the extent of it.

I think they never talk about pleasure. And like, sex is supposed to be like pleasurable and, you know, receiving pleasure and giving pleasure. And so it's just really sad that like the most important component of sex is completely, um, ignored. And so when you're consuming porn, you think that you need to have a huge dick and it needs to be hard all the time, and you're gonna like bam bam bam and the woman's gonna come through penetration, and then you, you need to come together as well, and then you're done. Oh, and she, she's squirts a lot, you know. And so then when, when you finally do have sex, like, and you're like, wait, what's happening? Um, it's because that's just not the reality of it. So it's, it's very much done for the male gaze, and it, it's done a disservice in terms of— I mean, there's another stat, I forgot the actual percentage of it, but basically there's been a rise in the quantity of men that have been asking for penile enlargement surgeries, and then the doctors like measuring their, their penises and saying, listen, you're actually like average or above average.

Did you know this?

But people think that they have small penises because they're comparing it to like the dudes in the porn videos.

My best analogy for—

I'm—

this is great. Uh, my best—

this is all great content.

My best analogy just from listening is like porn to sex is what like Instagram is to just broad reality of how people live their lives, right? Like you go on Instagram, you edit your photos, I'm like, this person's so cool. And then as the scroll— the person scrolling, you just long for something that's unattainable, not knowing— I mean, psychol— you know it's unattainable, but psychologically the way you behave doesn't know that it's unattainable. The same way you watch porn, you're like, wow, that's so cool. And then you have sex, you're like, wait, there's no like connection between what I just watched for 45 minutes and what I just did for 5 minutes.

Exactly. But also, I mean, sex is so vulnerable and it really requires connection and communication and telling your partner what it is that you like and that you don't like and how you're feeling. And sometimes you're just not in the mood. But men have been conditioned to not be vulnerable and to not be open about how they're feeling. And there's also this whole like the penis is put on a pedestal. And, and this is like for centuries, but, um, if you aren't hard right away, what's wrong with you? And that's not how arousal works. And then this just creates a huge snowball. So you, you see this issue where a lot of guys just really aren't able to enjoy sex truly because for them it's like, okay, now I just need to like get through with it, like, come, and then that's it, right? And, um, and I think it just creates a lot of anxiety but also steals people from, like, the full experience that sex can be. So, uh, porn has exacerbated, I think, what men are inherently conditioned to, to be through masculinity. And it's not just toxic masculinity, it's like just the concept of masculinity in and of itself.

So if someone came to you for advice on just sex in general, would you tell them to stop ever watching porn?

No, I wouldn't. Um, I think that there's great porn out there. Like, there's ethical porn websites now that focus on not just the ethics of the creators getting paid properly and having the royalties and whatnot, but of also, uh making sure that the production reflects what sex actually is in real life, right? Um, but porn, regardless of the type that you watch, can also be a really great resource for you to explore what it is that you like and what you don't like. And, you know, sometimes you fantasize about a gangbang, but you actually don't want that to come true in real life. Like, there's— we have a lot of sexual fantasies that we don't ever want to, like, take out of our minds for a variety of reasons, whether it's unsafe, you know, you don't want to put your relationship at risk. Like, there's a variety of reasons for that. So sometimes you just kind of want to watch it and like keep it there on the screen, right? The issue with porn becomes when either it distorts your relationship to sex and your relationship to your partner, because if you're not able to get aroused without watching porn you know, that, that's, that's a problem.

But I feel like 99% of situations lead to that. No, based on my minimal understanding, like this delusional perception that inherently will affect your like sex life if you're actually like addicted to porn or just like using it in a the wrong way.

Yeah, but like what is addiction and what is your relationship to porn? Like I watch it, um, but I don't watch it every time I need to get off or every time I have sex with my partner. Like it's just And, you know, sometimes it's— I'm interested, I want to see what's there. Like, it's just a— I think it complements the journey. So you just need to make sure that also you're not like succumbing to it every time that you want to get off. And that's something that, you know, I have especially a lot of women and vulva owners that come and ask me like, hey, I I watch a lot of porn, and then if I'm not watching it when I'm masturbating, like, I'm not able to get off. And I'm like, you need to train your mind to not, like, not always have the same stimulation. So this time I'm going to focus on my imagination, or I'm going to listen to, like, audio erotica, you know, just different stimulations. And it's important to have that variety. It's the same thing, like, if you're always using a vibrator um, or, you know, this is like for penises and for, uh, vulvas. If you're always using it, then when you have like a human, you know, touching you down there, like, it's not gonna be the same. Like, you can't compete with that vibration that's going at like 1,000, you know, a second. Like, it's— so you need to make sure that you bring in that variety so that you're not like addicted to that one thing.

I think I agree. I agree with what you're saying, but it's also tough to reconcile the fact that the same way the vibrator is a good example, but the same way like a donut or ice cream tastes amazing. Most people are much better at saying full stop, I'm not doing this because the minute you have like an ice cream with sundae and donuts, you immediately go off the track, right? That's like classic dieting 101. It's yes, in moderation it's a good thing. But I'd guess for 99% of people saying like, oh, you know, porn's actually okay in this circumstance, in this circumstance. My guess is most young guys would hear that and then automatically just fall off the rails, even though I agree with you.

Well, there's a, a big problem. There was a study done in Asia, um, where they were just trying to understand why the, like, majority of young men actually don't have in real life sexual experiences anymore. And that's because they've become— they've grown up in an internet world and they've become addicted to porn. But because you never get rejected when it's online and you have that stimulation, um, so because you grow up in that environment, like, then suddenly you're at a bar trying to pick up a girl and she denies you like, that's draining, and you haven't been conditioned to deal with that, you know, denial. So I think that that's also another issue for, for a lot of guys.

It's like easy dopamine fixes.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, because you don't have to face friction. Like, yeah, it's the easy way out.

Yeah, but that's also like the reality of life, right? Like, you're facing that at work, you're facing that in so many other circumstances. Why does sex and relationship like I mean, it's like, it's almost like a bigger toll to your ego.

Yeah. You mentioned, I want to rewind a bit. You mentioned right off the bat that you kind of followed your curiosity and realized that you love talking to people and having them open up and being able to be open about sexual conversations and relationships. You mentioned that so offhandedly, like, oh, I noticed this, and so I went and did it. I feel like a lot of people need years and decades to be like, this is what I'm actually curious and good at. Yeah, let's go do something in that space. Did that come easily or was that a few-year process?

Well, when I was running my last wellness company, my business partner— it was a fitness, uh, focused business— but my business partner was telling me about how she would have like 60-minute-plus orgasms. And I'm like, what? Like, I've never heard of that. That's insane. I mean, I haven't had one to this day. And, and I'm like, okay, we need to teach people how to do this, you know? And she didn't feel comfortable, but that already started like that, planted a seed. And I'm like, wow, like the human bodily experience is so rich and so intelligent. And I like, we're just at the tip of the iceberg and what we can experience, which is really exciting. So that was brewing for like a year before I decided to make the move. But I was also at the other company trying to make that one work. But I've always been a bit— I think you have to be delusional as an entrepreneur. Like, you need to believe that you're in that, like, small percentage of success because, you know, most fail. And I'm there. Like, I, I just— I also, for me, I feel like there's no plan B. I, worked in finance. I don't want to have a boss. I've always, throughout my life, like, I— my sport is tennis and I like to play singles, you know? Like, I've always been that person that I play alone. And especially in the US where it's like a very team-based— which is kind of ironic because it's also the country where you're supposed to like depend on yourself to make sure that you build everything and you do. But, but it's also, at the same time, we're also promoting like team spirit and if you don't work well in teams, like that's a huge, that's a negative connotation. But I've just always done really well on my own. And the times that I was most successful in finance, I was given all autonomy. So I knew that I needed to continue on this path. And then after thinking of so many different options, this one felt like the best, the best one.

I was watching, do you know Hunter Weiss? I think he runs like a marketing agency or something.

Is he— I know a Hunter at— Is it an animation studio?

Yeah, yeah, that one.

Yes.

I was listening, I don't know, but I was listening to one of his, I don't know if it was a podcast or, you know, there's like animated talking heads. And he had this great line about how most of his work kind of like is a balance of art as well as just like this gritty entrepreneurship and building. And what you, what you showed me, what you built, like the box, I haven't even unwrapped it yet.

Yeah.

But the first product for Wanderlust, right?

Yeah.

Immediately I was like, oh, well, this is a piece of art that you created and this was kind of your gift to the world. And then let's go build a business behind it. And that's your entrepreneurial instincts. And so I'm curious for you, seeing that right off the bat, how do you feel? How do you ensure that you maintain balance between this is a creative endeavor and putting art out into the world? And also, I love running a business and like, I'm sure that side of you enjoys that as well.

Yeah, it's tough because I prefer— now that I've found my flow in the creativity, I kind of want to spend most of my time there. But I'm also Type A, and I know that, like, I'm running a business and I need to make sure that it's profitable. Um, but more recently I've just been focusing so much on the creativity and Building that strong base so that that will drive the business side of things. And also like just automation of all of the things that really bog you down on a day-to-day basis. Hiring a virtual assistant, um, you know, delegating the things that aren't really core to what I'm really good at and where my energy should, should be focused on.

What's your goal with the business?

So it's so funny because, um, you were mentioning about, you know, in 5 years, like you could have, or in 5 months you could have sold the business. And I never came into this with like an exit in mind. And I, I know, I feel like most of the entrepreneurs that I talk to think of it that way, but it's because I see myself in the space for life, like in some capacity or other. Right. And it's, we're also in the beginning, so of the sexual wellness industry as we know it. Um, I think there's just so much space to grow and create like great content and make people feel so much more comfortable with their sexuality that I, I don't have an end in mind. My goal is to grow this. I would love it to be the destination where it's like top of mind for couples when they want to improve their sex lives and relationship. You know, I want to learn how to deal better with conflict management, with exploring kink. And so that, you know, they— I mean, you name it, and that's what we would like to have the courses on the platform. And then here are the products that are, uh, that we— that are going to help you, um, through this journey as well.

Sounds like a media education company that happens to sell products. Just—

yeah, but I am going through this process right now of understanding how much of physical products that I actually want under, under my own management, because we launched with this beautiful product and, and it brings a lot of joy and has created change for the couples that have played it, which is really gratifying to see. And, but only when you launch is when you realize the headaches that actually come with that. And I, you know, everybody keeps asking me like, what's the second product? You know, are you gonna have an expansion pack and all of that? And I don't want like supply chain management and cash flow management as a consumer product goods company is, it's the toughest thing. And I just noticed that like I'm still in the infancy of the company. And I have— I, I can easily pivot to focus on the things that bring me more joy and mitigate the headaches that I don't wanna have. You're gonna have headaches regardless, but it's like, what— you have to choose what are the headaches that you want in your life. And so I realize like what I really love is talking on camera and educating people and connecting with them and helping them out. Like to me, that's the number one thing. So, uh, I'm getting my certification as a sex educator, building out the courses, and that's gonna be the number one focus. And then I'll think about the physical products that we're going to be plugging in later on. But ideally, I would like to partner with other brands that are doing incredible jobs.

I think that— sorry to interrupt. I think that note about physical products being so gratifying and fulfilling.

Yeah.

Even when you're stressed about cash flow issues. Is so understated. Like a lot of— I run a digital content studio. You run a SaaS company and a media company as well. But there's something that I think we've talked about this that I definitely miss about being able to hold something and have that thing that you built and put out into the world impact someone's life, even when you're really stressed about cash flow or supply chain.

Yeah. Yeah. But I also, I have an internal conflict with You know, climate change. And I see so many people coming into the CPG space with absolutely no thought to the waste that they're also bringing into the world. And, you know, people want to return their products and what do you do with that? You know, you probably need to throw it away because you're not able to do anything with it. And so like, we're just not also taking that into consideration in logistics. And that also makes me really sad. And so like, as the more that I think about it, like the harder it is for me to justify bringing out another lube or intimate device or, you know, anything else just because I want to slap my brand on it.

You know, I feel like if, if you're driven by like the impact and the education piece, I feel like the first step to the fix of this problem we're discussing is not like, here's another product, go use it, even though you don't even understand the root problem. It's like, let me teach you about it first and then I can give you the tools and like supplies that you need to, to use more effectively because now you understand from an education perspective, like why you should be doing things differently than maybe what you are today.

Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. And like, that's, that's the goal. It really is. I also just think that when people start building and, you know, it's like go fast and break things and I almost feel like feel like people care more about the revenue than about the profit. And I, I took a step back over the last year of launching the company and being in this world and talking to a lot of people and, and really considering, like, I want to be able to do this a lot more mindfully than just going fast and breaking things.

Why did you start with a product? Like, in hindsight, I guess the better question is, if you can go back and start over, yeah, would you change the path that you took?

Oh my gosh, yes, even though I love my product. But I would, I would. Why did I start with a product? Because I thought that I was going to build the next, um, legacy sexual wellness CPG brand. That's what I thought. I thought I was going to be an operator. I mean, you would know me as the founder because founders are now well known, but like, I wasn't going to be the face of the company and out there on TikTok educating people. And, um, and so that— and I started with the intimacy card deck because most sexual wellness companies start with, uh, toys and lubes and other accessories. But really at the, at the core of improving your sex life is being able to communicate about it effectively with your partner. And I felt like there weren't any intimacy card decks in the market that did this effectively. Like, they're the fun casual dating ones, um, and then there's like the vulgar ones that kind of make you cringe. And, uh, I wanted to build something that was, um, both effective and beautiful and made a lighter scenario out of such an awkward situation, right? So it's like you, you can play it on a date night and actually have fun but be able to genuinely talk about the things that you want to improve in both your sex life and relationship. Like, the deck, you know, encompasses—

for those listening, can you just give a quick 2 seconds on what the deck is so people are maybe— can better track what we're referencing?

Um, the Mindful Intimacy card deck is a deck for couples to talk about sex, deepen their connection. There are 2 levels of 69 cards each. It's based on relationship psychology and approved by therapists. And the first deck is more romantic and focused on your relationship. And it starts how you normally would with couples therapy, which reminds you of what brought the two of you together. And then the second level has more sexual questions and there are follow-up questions to these, to the initial prompt. So you're not just asking your partner, you know, what is your sexual fantasy? You're asking them like, do you actually want to make it come true? And if you do, you know, how do you want it to play out? What are your concerns and boundaries? And all of these additional follow-up prompts that really help you tease out the question and build a more holistic conversation around the topic. And the great thing is that it's the card that asks the question, not you. Also, if you don't like the question, you can just set it aside and move on to the next one. So I think it makes it a lighter situation than if you were to sit with your partner and be like, so what do you want to sexually explore more of, you know? And then that— it can be tough for people to approach that.

Why is it— this is a basic question, but I think it's important to talk about— why is it so important that couples should be talking about sex and should be talking about these things openly? Because most couples don't go to therapy, let alone sexual therapy.

Yeah, well, because again, like, I mean, studies have proven this: when you have a fulfilling sex life with your partner and you have more frequent sex, you tend to have a happier relationship. And like, the basis of your longevity and happiness is being in a healthy relationship, truly. Um, so it's, it's important for you to take the time to cultivate it. And if you're not telling your partner like, this isn't working for me, or I would like to explore something different, because Eventually, when you're with the same person, like, things can get boring. And if you're not taking the time to explore new things and, and bring in novelty, again, it's not going to be a fulfilling sex life. So you being able to communicate about it and, and also establish boundaries is, is critical. And, um, that— I mean, for me, that's like the foundation. Also, I mean, part of the reason why I also thought of the product besides the studies proving this is like something that, you know, all of my sexual partners have told me is that I've been very communicative about what I want, like off the bat. And that's always been very surprising because, you know, they're not used to that. And I realized, okay, like if I have this ease, I want to help other people build this as well. It's totally doable.

Is the reason that most people aren't communicative just that you haven't been educated about it? Yeah, educated to do that.

Educated about it. And again, through porn in Hollywood, you know, it's supposed to be easy, effortless, and spontaneous.

What about like judgment? Like, do you think there's people who won't speak up because like, what if— what if my partner thinks this is weird?

Exactly. Yeah, no, I mean, that too. But then this is why the education comes into place, where it's like Okay, the other partner that can be in the position to judge also needs to understand that like you yucking your partner's yum is gonna, you know, like that's just gonna create a, a greater distance between the two of you. And so there are ways for you to be like, hey, I don't want to try anal. Maybe you've tried it in the past and it hurts a lot and it was just like a really bad experience, but like You know, are there other ways where you can meet halfway and explore something that, you know, or maybe they'll get off on that in some other manner. But like, you, it's, you should not put somebody down and judge. And so that's also like the flip side of the education that needs to be had.

I know we talked about porn.

Yeah.

Can we talk about OnlyFans? I was good.

Yeah, took the word right out of it.

And your thoughts about why it's one of the fastest growing companies Okay, so the first thing I want to mention about OnlyFans is I don't know if you guys have been on there, but I have, and like, it's the worst UX experience possible. Like, it's impossible for you to find the creators, um, unless you have like the direct link to their page. And then like the whole, you know, signup process and subscribing, like, it's just a really awful like experience. And so that's when you know you found product market fit.

Yeah. Cause like They're like, why reinvest in a better UX when we're already breaking every single record?

Exactly. Like, that to me is insane. Um, but I— okay, I have many thoughts. Where do you want this to go?

Uh, you can take it wherever you want.

How about you start at the beginning?

So I think that OnlyFans has been really great for creators to own their content and, and really put that money like in their pockets. Um, the flip side, talking to friends of mine who are sex workers is that when you film in a studio for these, you know, larger platforms, and then you're on Pornhub and all these other ones, is like, you need to get tested for STDs. And, and it— there is like a strict control over it, right? And, and then when you have like anybody off the street that can create an OnlyFans and they start collaborating amongst themselves, they're not aware of all of the guidelines, even like legal protections of, you know, like you need to sign a contract and make sure that like the film that you made, like, isn't just gonna be leaked, you know? So there's just like a lack of, of understanding of how the industry actually works when you have absolutely anybody able to start their own account.

But I feel like that's not necessarily OnlyFans objective, for better or for worse, right? It's more like giving— like, that might be— yeah, that's a race.

That's like, that's like a downside to the OnlyFans, you know. Um, but I, I, I really admire how empowering it has been for people. Like, I think that's great, you know.

I heard about a business— I might have told you this— a business in the space that's directly related that is even more impressive to me. This guy I met him when I was in Laguna Beach with my family sitting in a sauna, and we started talking. I was like, oh, like, what do you do? Or whatever. He's like, oh, like, I run a SaaS business with my wife. And I was like, okay, go on. He's like, yeah, we do $20 million ARR, no employees, no overhead.

He's the offshore agency.

No. And I was like, dude, what? Like, okay, tell me more. He built a company called Only Search, and they built Google for OnlyFans.

Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've come across—

and the premise, the premise of it is that the value prop of OnlyFans to its creators is that you're token-gated and you're privatized. So that you can't go on Google and type in like hot blonde girl on OnlyFans. Like nothing will show up. So he built the search engine where you can actually rank. So the idea is that all the creators from OnlyFans go on OnlySearch and bid on keywords. So he, he literally just took the concept of Google for OnlyFans. Now the catch to it is that OnlyFans loves his business because it drives them millions of dollars, but they'll never cannibalize it because it goes against their principles as a business. Huh.

That's what— have you heard of all like the The adjacent industries popping up around OnlyFans are some of the craziest stories I've heard.

I just know about like my roommate has a couple friends who run management agencies. Yeah, that is crazy. It's just the biggest cash cow in the world.

Yeah.

Do you think OnlyFans, I'm looking back in 50 years, is a net positive for future of humanity?

Oh my God, 50 years is a really long time at the rate that we've been. Like, we're gonna meet AI by that, but looking back, will we be like, like, I feel like in 100 years I think the positive thing about it is like everybody has their kinks and fetishes and they want to, you know, you theoretically, because depending on these management companies too, um, you, you're theoretically having a more intimate relationship to the creator. Um, and I, I only say that because I know of certain situations where, you know, people are like messaging the creator and they think they're actually talking to the creator, but it's like someone in the Philippines that's answering your messages. Um, but it's given that opportunity for you to build, you know, closer relationship to creators. And like, I'm in the creator economy. I'm not in that creator economy, but, um, one thing that I really love is like being able to DM with my followers and be able to help them out. Right. So, um, I think that that's been great in terms of like moving forward with like the porn industry in a different direction?

I, I think it almost like perpetuates the problem that porn does in the sense that like porn gives you—

go ahead, I've remembered my thought. We're gonna edit this part out, right?

Okay, I don't think we will.

Okay, okay. Um, I, I think that it also destigmatizes the industry because it, you know, if you want to get into porn but you might not want be shooting at studios, and you, you might not want to be in like the large platforms, and you want to keep it, you know, behind a paid wall. Like, more and more people can do it, you know. Um, and I do see the sex positivity in that.

Here's my issue with it. So you start with porn, which is like you watch this thing that's not real, it completely distorts your perception of reality. I think OnlyFans is the second level of that, where it's like First you see porn via Pornhub, whatever it is, and you're like, this is a crazy fantasy. Now with OnlyFans, it's like, okay, I can like talk to the creator and think I'm getting like one step closer, yet it's still extremely unattainable. And I think it just morphs your mind even more. Like, I'm talking to my roommate's friend who's a manager. She's telling me how she manages her creator's DMs, and she's like, oh yeah, but like this guy Steve, he like donates $2,000 a week to my one creator, so we give him like the VIP service and will respond to everything and have like crazy conversations, but there's other people who give like $5, $10, so we don't really pay attention to them. And I'm like, oh my gosh, now first with like Pornhub you watch, and now you can just like pay to play to get closer to this like fantasy that you have, but you still will never actually achieve it of like getting the old— I mean, maybe, but like getting that creator to like do whatever it is that you fantasize about. I just think it perpetuates the same problem of this like delusion around the industry. Personally.

Yeah, but you know, the hardest thing about sex is like, it's so individual, and we have— I mean, it's like, it reaches our like darkest like parts of ourselves as well. We're going through a loneliness epidemic. Like, people want to connect.

I see it as every— if we're viewing ourselves like humanity as a species, I think it's important to have outlets for the darkest parts of your psyche.

Yeah.

Um, I forget, uh, Relentless, who is written by the trainer of Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan. I forget what his name is, but he talks about like the darkest parts of your mind. Every athlete has that. For Tiger Woods, it was a sexual addiction, right? And almost every high performer, but every single person has that kind of dark part of themselves. I think there, there are roles for that in every society.

Yeah.

To have hopefully a harmless way of expressing those dark parts of you. But I do think normalizing like OnlyFans and porn as a kind of like mainstream discourse, I would, I would probably lean towards the camp of like, this is probably not a net positive for like where we as a species are going, right? But I do see its role.

It's just that people are already consuming it, right? And it's there. Um, how do we create limitations around it where we can live in a bit— a little bit more of a balance. But like, it's always going to be there inevitably. I mean, you know, erotic illustrations have been found in like in caves dating back to thousands of years. Like, we've always, you know, been very kinky people. So it's like, this is just inevitable, I think.

What about taking it one step further though? So it's like porn, I have OnlyFans, which I think is like the middle ground between porn and the third topic, in my opinion, which is like prostitution. Yeah, like where— like how do you see that fitting into this? Because I feel like OnlyFans is the middle where it's like you can't touch but you can like get a little bit closer to touching, and then prostitution is like actually the thing.

Yeah, I mean, listen, I know sex workers that are on all three, like in all three feeds into their ecosystem, right? Like, like people find out about them through Pornhub, and then they subscribe to their OnlyFans, and then, you know, you can hire them to meet them IRL. And, um, and they love their lives. Like, they are very empowered in what they do. Um, I think prostitution is a problem when the person doesn't want to be in that situation. Then that's obviously That's a crime. Like, nobody should, should be going through that. Um, but I've met a lot of women who have really love what they do, and I think that's, I think that's fine. And like, also, they will always exist. People will always pay for it. Um, I think the problem when you, you know, when you're somebody who is in a long-term relationship, and by that I also mean marriage, and you are hiring prostitutes— is— I'm not getting into the ethics of like you're cheating on your partner or not. I think the problem is that, you know, a lot of— you know, I'm not gonna say a lot of times, I actually don't know the percentage, but like you might be putting your partner at, you know, risk for an STD or something. And I think that that, that's really upsetting. Um, I mean, if that's wrong But again, like, working in this industry of sex and sexuality, I've just learned to not judge the way that I used to because our sexuality is so complex. And so, you know, how do you judge the person— and this can be a man or woman— who, you know, hires an escort again, they're male escorts out there, um, because they're in a sexless marriage. They love their partner, but they need to fulfill this other side of themselves. How do you deal with that, right?

So you just mentioned something that you explicitly said not to judge, but I want to— I, I want to go into the ethics. Okay, like, I want to get your perspective on, on the ethics of like a sexless marriage and how does that play into people who are using prostitutes or escorts, and like, where's that line drawn with communicating with your partner or feeling like you could do that on your own? Yeah, um, the hard-hitting questions.

No, it is. Yeah, I just, you know, I think every, every situation is different, and couples sometimes have these unspoken agreements where, you know, you maybe have one partner who knows that the other partner is having an affair, or, you know, has like casual sex with other people every now and then, and they're just quiet about it. They ignore it, pretend that they don't know because, you know, the rest of their life is, is, is fine. And, and, you know, they themselves kind of want to stick to that. Like, who am I to say that's wrong? Like, you should not be doing that to yourself. I think that it's, it's an issue when it becomes really harmful, when it's impacting your mental, emotional health. You know, then that becomes an issue.

What are your thoughts on open relationships and polygamy?

God, so it's so, it's so much harder than people want to believe that it is, you know. I mean, I have this conversation with my partner all the time, like, monogamy is hard. Like, you having sex with one person for theoretically the rest of your life or however long you're gonna be together, like, that's tough, right? You, again, like, and it's the basis of what I do, you need to put in the effort to keep things spicy and bring in the novelty, and that takes a lot of effort.

I just, I might— I don't know if humans are wired for monogamy. I feel like we were put on this earth to just like reproduce. Yeah, in like a very morbid way.

So yeah, and I agree with you, but the problem is that we've also been conditioned to be monogamous, and so then Okay, so you're like, cool, um, I can't be monogamous, like, let's explore. But then, you know, you— then suddenly, like, your partner, you, you see her, like, hooking up with other men. Like, there are some people that love that and they get off on that, but for a lot of men, like, and women, like, that's just really hard. So it's like, it's not great in theory. Like, great in theory, but really hard, you know, in, in reality. And, um, that's why it's easier for you to cheat, because you don't need to be honest with your partner about it. Like, it's something that you keep to yourself. It's your own little thrill. I think also, like, romantic love as it is today— and that's— I'm just saying that because it's evolved a lot over the last, like, 50 years— our understanding of romantic love is like that one person that means everything for you. And they represent being the best parent, the best lover, the best friend, the best provider, the best cook, you know, like, and one person can't be everything to you. And so because we have such a stronger association to what, what the one represents to us, if they cheat on us, like, that questions our entire identity. We go into this crisis. Like, in the past it wasn't that, also just because it was more of like an economic entity. And monogamy was a means for you to understand that, like, these are the children that are gonna actually, like, um, that are the heirs to your, you know, property. Um, but men were always given the permission to, to be non-monogamous, right? And so conversations that I have with a lot of my guy friends, it's like they're married and they're like, yeah, like, oh God, monogamy is so hard, but, you know, I wish that, like, non-monogamy just I would be okay with it if it only applied to me, but not to my wife. And it's like, you know, like, that's not correct, you know? Like, it can't— you can't— you can't have your cake and eat it too, you know?

Do you, do you think that— do you think that— okay, say a real-time example of you have a friend that is in a healthy 2-year, 3-year relationship, not a sexless relationship, maybe they recently got married and one of them is considering or flirting with the idea of, should I broach an open relationship? Should I, should I bring it up with my partner? Um, what is your— say that was a real example, like, what would be your advice to them? Like, hey, is it, if you're thinking about this, maybe you should try something with your partner first? Or is it, yeah, that's okay, you know, explore yourself?

I think that you can definitely, um, I mean, start small. Like, maybe you'll You're— it's okay for you to flirt with somebody at the bar, like, actually, like, you don't feel like you're cheating on your partner. And then maybe, like, you can kiss, or maybe you can just, like, have sex, but you can't spend the night, you know? Or you, you can't, like, consistently have sex with one person because then that creates an emotional attachment. And, like, you start exploring these different boundaries. I know couples who have been together for, um a long time and explored open relationships and had a fun time during the time that it was open, and then they closed it again because it didn't, you know, at some point it didn't work. Having an open and polygamous relationship is also like really— it can— it's really draining. You're managing a lot of people's emotional expectations. You need to have, um, your calendar like very well structured. Like, it's tough. It's not that like you know, but you can also explore it together, like bring somebody else into bed, you know. Um, there are other ways where you don't need to like fully open the relationship, but you can still explore different things.

It's crazy how mainstream the idea of having a mistress used to be, or like that anyone that's watched Mad Men, it's so normalized. And you hear it like sometimes you'll read— I'll read in like an old book, it's like, oh, his mistresses that of course his wife knew about. It's wild that that was just a thing.

Yeah, I have a weird relationship with that concept because one of my dad's best friends, uh, has had a mistress for like over a decade and has 3 daughters and a wife, and like she's fully apprised on the situation. And like his wife lives at home, but he like travels with his mistress, and it's just such an uncomfortable situation. To watch. And even like the wife will contact my mom to ask for the four of them to socialize, but it's like my mom typically is socializing with the guy and his mistress because that's who— like, because it's my dad's friend and that's who he's usually with.

This is a wild scenario.

Yeah, very, very wild scenario. And I've just like— he— like, I know him very well also, and I've just like watched the situation for most of my child— It's been going on since like I was a little kid.

Um, but is, is his wife okay with it?

Like, I think it's the financial situation where she— they— she's not from the States and she moved to the States and doesn't really have that many people. And it's like, he does very well. And so for like financial reasons, I don't know if divorce is really like viable at this moment in time.

Yeah, I just like— I asked that because if—

I think the answer is no.

Okay. Well, but let's just say, like, if the answer is no, then yeah, that's a really shitty situation to be in. Like, I'm really sorry that she's in that situation. But if, you know, if she's staying with him because, yeah, like, there is the financial component, but like deep down she's like, she's being pragmatic and she also doesn't really care, like, then, you know, fuck it. Like, that's, that's fine. Like, you know, she, she's doing her thing, which goes back to what I was talking about earlier on. It's assuming that she's okay with it. It's uncomfortable for you and your family because you guys have been conditioned otherwise, right? But like, if she's okay with it, then that's fine. The issue is when you are not okay with it, it really does impact your, your health. And so that like emotional and mental toll can, you know, end up manifesting itself into a disease later on, right? Like, I, I've seen situations of this, and then that is when it just really shouldn't be.

I think it's the moral compass that like people around me who are like my sisters, for example, Like, we were just at a wedding of one of the daughters, and like, the wife was there, not the mistress. And like, when you give a speech in front of everyone talking about the importance of family, and like, it's just so hard to process that truly.

Uh, yeah, but also, again, like, family can mean something different for each.

Yeah, but that goes, that goes back to the point of how the majority of society is conditioned to— yeah, like, when you— when I see like my sisters, for example, when you think about family, you think about a monogamous relationship. Like communication, trust, open-mindedness, not like living a double life for 20 years. And like, it caused— I know one of the kids didn't talk to her dad for a while because she couldn't wrap her head around it, right? And I know that he's like talked to my parents about being honest about the situation. And I just— you say that, I just had to bring it up because you talk about how it's this thing from the past. I'm like, no, like, I'm literally watching this happen in real time.

Yeah, I mean, but also like in Brazil, it's It's really common too. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, so I just like— I— it's still very common throughout the world. I think it just goes back to like what the agreement is for each couple, and that's why I just try not to, to judge that, that aspect of it. But Esther Perel, um, the renowned psychologist, she talks about how we should also reframe how we think about cheating. And if, you know, like cheating can happen for so many reasons, and you can also cheat when you're happy in your relationship. And again, because we're also living in the digital age, he says that like now, whereas before you kind of knew, like I was with that person at some time or whatever, like now in the digital age you can find out every single detail. And so it's like death by a thousand cuts. Is what she says. And it's just a lot— it's a lot bigger toll, plus the identity crisis that I had mentioned earlier. And so, but you can also rebuild the relationship after that and, and really focus on like what drove the person to cheat and, um, how have you been feeling in the relationship, and just kind of like an opportunity for you to, you know, Do you think you can rebuild that trust? I think so, yes, but it takes a lot of— it takes a lot of work. Yeah, it really does.

From personal experience, I would argue the opposite personally, that it's not possible. Correct.

Were you cheated on?

I was.

Yeah, but I think it's also—

I'm like, I don't, I don't hide it. Like, I'm open about it.

Men tend to have— it's like a bigger toll to your ego, like I don't think, I don't think it was an ego, truly.

I don't think it was an ego thing for me. I think it was more just the concept of trust, where like if you say one thing and do the other, whether that's— it could span across any aspect of your life, right? Uh, but like when you break that trust, I— maybe it's just personal experience, it was always like from that point on second-guessing what's true and what's not true, because like there was a moment in time when you weren't telling me what was true.

Yeah.

I just think— let me rephrase this. I think maybe it's possible. I just think from past experience, I'm not interested in, like, it. Just from past experience, if it were to happen again, I'm not interested in, like, going down the path of trying to fix it. Yeah, because I'm drawing from, from past experience on it.

I have a couple questions, one of them being you mentioned, uh, Instagram at one point. Is You know, I have a lot of friends that I'll see them liking like bikini pictures and follow, and then I'll look at the followers and they're following these random models on Instagram, right?

I have so many friends.

And I'm like, you've been dating this girl who's great, and I know you guys are happy for like 3 years.

What are you doing, man?

Um, how do you view— how do you view that? And then at the same time, um, how do you view, you know, again, people in happy relationships that are posting really exposed pictures of themselves on Instagram?

So I have given my partner shit for like liking these photos and following a few models, but like, I don't, um, but then at the same time I'm like, but I'm also totally cool with him watching porn, so like, what's the difference?

But here's my question, like, why are you liking the photos? Or like, why are you following?

Because I thought it was hot, you know? Like the other day I liked a DJ's photo, and he was like, that's like the same thing. And I'm like, no, it's not. But, um, but I, I think, you know, people tend to associate— like, it can be more triggering for people when it happens on Instagram, um, or TikTok, or whatever platform you're on, like, because it feels a little bit more personal, um, versus, you know, if you're watching, uh, porn on like a big website, it can just just be like, you know, they're not seeing like— yeah, it's random. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I think it's a little bit more personal. Like, I'm not gonna lie, like, is it a little uncomfortable for me? Yes. But I also kind of feel like there's, um, a hypocrisy on my part.

Tell me more.

For that. Well, because again, like, I'm totally cool with him seeing naked women in other platforms. Like, why would I, you know, like, why am I getting so upset about him liking a girl in a bikini photo, you know, on Instagram. Um, so I think that's one thing. I think you need to find what works for your relationship. And if it really bothers your partner, like, is that the battle that you want to fight?

Like, I think that goes back to trust.

Probably not, right? Like, yes, but also it's just like, this is probably not the battle worth fighting in your relationship. Like, no, I'm going to continue following these people. I'm like, stop.

Yeah, I agree. But like, then what if it bothers it bothers you though, then what, what's the other alternative? To compartmentalize it and act like it doesn't bother you because you don't want to bring it up because you have too many other battles that you want to fight with your partner? Like, I think—

no, no, I'm talking about like the partner who likes the photos. Like, don't— like, if your partner asks you to stop liking photos of models on Instagram, just stop it.

Oh yeah, no, but I'm saying, and then if you don't, is it like actually an issue?

Like, I, uh, I mean I think so, because it's like, it's like something so small for you to do for your partner. Like, you'll probably still see the— like, your explore page is probably a bunch of women in bikinis. Like, you're probably still seeing that on your Instagram anyways. Like, you'll see it. Yeah, just don't like it.

Like, you're gonna make— then all the dudes are gonna start making Finstas of like private account on their second account, not tell their partner the name, follow 1,000 models and no one else.

It's It's hard for you to limit, again, like people's sexuality and desires. Like, it's something that you also kind of want to preserve to yourself in certain aspects of your relationship because you like have this process of fusion where you're both like together and kind of doing everything and you know everything about each other. And so it's like kind of your own little secret, right? Like it's your— some like a small thing that you keep to yourself. Right? And so I'm not, I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that like, it is— if the person decides to like create a Finsta, like there is nothing that your partner can really— because then you get into this like really unhealthy control loop, and then that's just not good for anybody, right? But in general, I would say like, if your partner is asking you to stop liking bikini photos, just do it, you know? Like, if it's a really small thing for you to—

what do you think about that flip I had a friend who will obviously be anonymous for this question.

Yeah.

No, tell us more.

This is his name and address.

Do I know him?

Maybe. Okay. I had a friend basically ask me about this and he was like, I don't know how to not confront my girlfriend, but I don't know how to tell her to, like, stop posting a lot of these bikini pictures.

Right.

And I was like, well, she is like an influencer and a model. And she's getting sponsored for some of this stuff. I know this is a specific scenario. Yeah, um, let's keep it— say, say she's not an influencer for this stuff. Um, and he was like, I don't know how to talk to her. I did not have any good advice. I passed on the question.

Like bringing like Jonah Hill like vibes.

But, uh, oh yeah, that text exchange.

Yeah, I mean, your friend, I don't think he was like that. But like that, the— I think the whole point is if, if you decide to be in a relationship with someone who is already posting bikini photos, whether she's an influencer or not, like you're accepting her that way. She already has that tendency. It's very hard for you to then want to control that. Again, it's really shitty if you're with someone who then tries to change you after you guys are established. You should accept your partner for who they are and if that bothers you, probably shouldn't be with that person.

If it bothers you, can you just say can he just say like, hey, this bothers me? Or would you recommend—

I think, yeah, I mean, I think you can definitely share that. I think the like murky line is like, how is this going to affect your relationship? And like, is this going to cause her shame? Or again, is this the fight that you want to pick? Like, um, it also— is it like resolvable? Like, can the influencer— like, if she's not an influencer and she's posting bikini photos, like, she's probably not dependent on those bikini photos to make a living. But if, you know, your partner is, like, how is this going to impact, you know, her work? Um, like, for me, I personally don't like to post any, like, full body bikini photos because I talk about sex and relationships, and, like, people already blur these lines, um, because I already do this by nature, like, it's my work. And so if I'm there posting these photos of myself, like, then that is gonna escalate to a whole other level. Also, I've just never been that girl. Like, I've just never felt comfortable doing that. Like, it's just my personality, right?

I'm gonna give my two cents as someone who's not qualified necessarily to give you my two cents. You can't change— you can't change someone. Don't try and change someone to be someone they're not. Yeah, that was definitely something I learned. And the second one is like, know what you're signing up for. Like, it comes with the territory.

Exactly.

If you're gonna date a model, like, it is— you can't date a model and be like, don't become one. And like, again, trying to change them.

And like, listen, there's—

so you can tell your friend, those are my, those are my two pieces of advice.

Buddy Ben, who's not licensed to do any of this.

Um, and there are some men that like love seeing their partners, you know, with bikini photos online, and like, you know, deep down knowing that other men are getting off on that. Like, it's just everybody has their, their quirks.

Question for you, shifting this a bit, A lot of late 20s, early 30s friends or colleagues of mine are both high performers and they're working all day in New York and others working all day in Brooklyn. And then they get back at, as you said, 5 or 6 after work.

Right.

And they're both exhausted and they don't have time to put into this relationship. What is your very tactical advice about, hey, not like, here's how to spice up your relationship, but these are a couple recurring things that would be healthy to at least try out? What is that shortlist? Because I feel like most of my friends that are in relationships have that problem at some point.

Or your friends who aren't in relationships because of that.

Yes.

Um, so I think first of all, like, number one thing is you need to find, um, you need to find a way to unwind and like make that switch. So oftentimes we get back and we're still also just really stressed like, can you do breathwork for 5? But like, people don't— I think also, first of all, a lot of people have this association with breathwork being very woo-woo. But like, the power of something so simple to like regulate your nervous system in real time is incredible. So it's like, find, find your thing. Is that breathwork? Is it like a walk around the block? You know, is it taking a really warm shower? Right when you get home before you start interacting with your partner. Like, whatever it is, it's that moment of transition that you will actively dedicate, you know, whether it's 5 minutes or half an hour or two, so that when you show up with your partner, like, you're in a better mindset. Um, so that's number one. Um, I think it's also, do you have a ritual where you guys are able to connect. Somebody posted this the other day, um, and it's the TEAM method. Uh, she practices it with her partner every day. I, I do a murkier version of this, but basically it's an opportunity where you sit down and you share one new thing that you learned today, um, you know, anything that you're excited about that's coming up if there are any, like, anything that you need to kind of organize for the next day that you need your partner to, to be a part of. And touch. So like, and this has also been proven for couples that have great sex, or they have a moment where they're actually like physically, you know, touching, whether it's cuddling or kissing, you know, but you're doing this act on a daily basis. Um, and That in and of itself, I practice this with my partner, like it's such a great way. For me, it's like my favorite part of the day, even on my really shitty days, because then I have this like half an hour where I know that I'm connecting with my partner and sharing something new. And then I think it is about, it's like, not making it about sex, but it's like, all right, how can you provide that support for your— a lot of these things aren't sexual, but that's what brings in the sensuality for then you to become aroused. So, um, you know, you might organize something where then one day, like, even if you're just ordering in, you're gonna surprise your partner with what you've ordered in. Or, you know, maybe you guys really enjoy wine and you're gonna have like a glass each, right? And enjoy that moment. Like, it's like these moments that are very— that arouse the 5 senses and like help you get going and make that transition from the rest of your day. Something that I really like doing is like I give foot massages a lot to my partner. Like, he really loves that. And for me, it's just it's really nice to give pleasure to my partner in that way. And, um, and then that ends up like kind of inviting other things that come along with it. So it's also just like, how can you physically connect in non-sexual ways too?

I think the five senses note is so important, not sexually, just as a general practice. My, um, Karina got me into using incense I— my parents didn't use incense growing up. It may be a Brazilian thing.

Yes, we do. We use a lot of incense.

She puts on Java or some— yeah, some Brazilian music that's like kind of tribal and then incense. And I'm so— I feel like a little kid. I'm so calm.

Exactly.

Out of nowhere.

Setting the mood, right? Like, that's important because nothing's worse than like you both come home, you each order your own takeout, you know, you sit here, maybe like one's going to be on the phone, the other one's going to be watching football on TV. And then you're like, all right, done. Like, and you barely had any time to connect. And then like, of course your relationship is going downhill and you're not giving each other the best of what you can give. And like, your sex life is, you know, non-existent.

I think we're, uh, we're close to coming up on time here, but I feel like we have to end with the, you know, the premise of this podcast, which is around the concept of turning pro, which is getting up from one poker table and going to a more higher stakes table. I've been I've been sitting here for the last couple minutes just like thinking about that application to this conversation.

Yeah.

And I don't know if that's about you turning pro or just the concept of sex for the people listening and like your advice to them in terms of how they can level up.

I mean, I hope that like my leveling up will level up other people, right? Like me leveling up in my career, the whole, the whole premise is to be able to educate people on this. We're going to be coming out with a course on Couples Arousal 101 And it's really to help you understand what your arousal template is and what drives your libido and what are the things that you really want to explore. Because oftentimes people are not having sex, not because their libido is low, but it's because they're not having the sex that they want to have and they're bored in bed. But then they're like, wait, but how do I— there's more. Like, where do I explore from here? Um, so. I'm really excited about that. But like, for me, in terms of leveling up, like, all right, so I launched with the Intimacy Deck. Great. You know, we did well with that, but what's the next step? And so I really looked inwards and was like, well, what is my forte? And my forte is educating and talking on camera and public speaking. And that's also just what I love to do. That's what really fires me up. And I decided to get into the online course space and really go all into content creation. Before, I had like a foot in and a foot out because then I'm also worried about, you know, conversion rate optimization on the website and email marketing and supply chain and all of that. Exactly. And that takes away from the content creation and really kind of being in the mood to do all these other things. So I decided to, to pivot. And it's, it can be, it's a hard decision at first, but then, you know, and I've gone full into it, right? Like I mentioned, I'm getting my certification and I'm, you know, making sure that I'm bringing out the best quality content that, um, that I can possibly give. And with a certain kind of branding that I feel like just just isn't present in the market yet. And, um, and, and that's how I feel like I'm shifting from one poker table to the next. It really is like, what is the life that I want to build, and how am I going to build my career around that, instead of doing it for ego and for, you know, other people's expectations? And I think that's not talked about enough because we chase the numbers and then we find ourselves halfway there, or maybe when we actually reach there and we're like, oh, this is— I'm not happy. How did I find myself here?

Love that. You wanna just do us a favor and look at the camera and let everyone know where they can find you and what you're working on?

Okay. So you can find Wanderlust at wanderlust.co is the website. My handles across Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Twitter, is, or X, is, um, @natassia, it's spelled N-A-T-A-S-S-I-A, B. Miller. And Wanderlust is @joinwonderlust with an O.

Thanks for coming on.

That was awesome.

That was a great episode.

Thank you so much for having me. I love this.