#023: Zach Pogrob - Building the Brand of Obsession to 2M+ Followers

In a lot of ways, my whole content up until a few months ago has been a shadow career, and I'm finally getting out of that now. I think I feel like all I'm doing is waking up and creating things and then going to sleep and then doing it again. And I think that's like how people are meant to live if you are a creative type. And I'm not 100% there because I think to do that right, you have to have the monetization built in where it's like the thing you're creating is monetizing and then you're going back into the thing you're creating and then it's getting better and bigger and you're making more money. My shit is close to that, but it's still kind of like I'm making money in different ways off of that. Like the people who really take over the world, it's seamless and it's a pure flywheel, then you're no longer in the shadows.

Zach Pogrob is an athlete, entrepreneur, and creator focused on a single word: obsession. He is one of the fastest growing creators in the world with over 2 million followers across platforms. In this episode, we unpack why Zach is doubling down on the Obsession brand, why fitness and health are fundamental parts of his journey, tactical recommendations to growing an audience and creative platform, and why New York City is the best place to build a global movement. Welcome back to episode 23 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Zach Pogrob, the man of obsession, joining us today. I got to be honest with you, I've been so excited for this moment. There's so much to unpack because I accidentally met Zach. He has now been staying with me at my apartment and we've become very good friends over the last couple weeks— months, I would say. And I was thinking about this episode because I was just trying to unpack where do I even start, to be honest with you. So I think I want to start this episode by just sharing how Zach and I even got connected. And the craziest part about this is that you were actually the first straw that brought the two of us together. And hell yeah, I don't even know if you knew that until now. So the quick story is that, and to preface this, I don't really read that many newsletters because I just feel like a lot of them feel like homework. Like when you open your inbox and you have a lot of things going to go through and then you see a newsletter, like I don't have 30 minutes to commit to this right now. And so for that reason, I've just never stuck to reading a newsletter. You know that about me. And so one day you were like, Ben, I think I have a newsletter that you're going to love. You need to subscribe to it. It was Zach's newsletter, The 10 Bullets, and I had been reading it every single week religiously for a few months at this point. And I was at lunch with a friend, Casey Adams, and when we were wrapping up lunch, he casually just looked at me. I was like, hey, I'm going to go stop by my friend's office, Zach Pogrob. You're more than welcome to come. And I, like, a light bulb went off in my head. I was like, wait a minute, is that the kid who writes this newsletter? And I asked Casey and he's like, yeah, yeah, Zach. And I actually canceled the meeting that I was supposed to take to go to the office to meet Zach. Because in my mind, I'm like, I have the attention span of a squirrel. And if someone can write a newsletter that can capture my attention every week, week after week, this person is interesting to me specifically. And so I need to meet him. And I canceled the meeting. It went to the office with Casey, and now we're sitting here on the couch doing this episode.

That's wild. That was wild to me because you were the first person who I met who only knew me from the newsletter. That like blew my mind because I loved— at the time when I met you, that was probably like 6 months ago, actually longer, like 10 months ago, 8 months ago. I love the newsletter. I thought it was the best thing I was making, but it was like, it doesn't get as much attention as the Instagram. And so that was a cool moment because, uh, I don't know, it's just funny.

So I think I introduced you as the obsession man, but Zach is a creator right now. I define you to people as a writer and a runner that like, those are the two things that you're doing, correct? Um, I think you embody this podcast more than most people I know, and I've watched that progression, I think, in the short time I've known you of turning pro, right? Like you have taken things to a whole new level. Your way of saying turning pro is obsession, and you've embodied that and you show it to me. And I think when people talk to me about you, because they know we're friends, I always explain to them, you don't understand, Zach is not just preaching this idea online, he actually lives it every single day, even though you don't see what he does behind the scenes. And so I think I want to start by you maybe just giving a little bit of backstory about how you got to where you are, and then also those moments in your life that were life-changing for you that really made you feel like you were turning pro.

Yeah, because it's funny, like 6 months ago around the time we met, I don't think I was a pro any, any comparison to where I am now. And I would sit in the park in Brooklyn and read the book Turning Pro, read it for like a week straight. And that book really helped me. A few other books helped me during that time. Yeah. Where I started, I went to college, Upstate New York, was graduating college and, you know, was on a pre-med track after playing college soccer. Sort of playing college soccer, kind of having a failed career with that. Didn't really want to be a doctor, but it was just the impressive path to, you know, impress people. And so when I was leaving school, I basically started two things at the same time. Started making content and I started this company doing photo booths for weddings. Right. And the way I saw it, it's like, okay, start this rental business so I can make money and survive and not have to get a job. And then two, the content is all that matters. The content is going to be the world I spend all my time in. I'm going to do it forever. And, you know, I don't remember the day that happened, but something just clicked with me that I'm going to start this and I'm never going to stop. And I never, ever thought about stopping, which to some people that is like crazy. And it kind of is when I think about it.

Are there any recent— over the past 6, 12 months, Steven Pressfield talks about shadow careers a lot. Are there any specific shadow careers over the past 6, 12 months that you want to call out?

100%, because that's kind of the story of my last year. Like, long story short, so to take from that timeline, after I graduated school, I wrote on Instagram for years, grew like 200,000 followers. And then around this time last year, I started making these animated videos and it completely changed my life. I took the same writing I was doing, turned it into this new format of animations, and boom, gained like 2 million followers, but kept doing that. And in a lot of ways, that was a shadow career in some ways because I was getting all the dopamine of going viral and getting all this attention. But I wasn't building a true connection, a true community, right? Which is what I really want to do. And so in a lot of ways, my whole content up until like a few months ago has been a shadow career, right? And I'm finally getting out of that now. I think—

how can you tell that you're getting out of it?

Because I have— I feel like all I'm doing is waking up and creating things and then going to sleep and then doing it again. And I think that's like how people are meant to live if you are a creative type. And I'm not 100% there. Like, I'm not because I think to do that right, you have to have the monetization built in where it's like the thing you're creating is monetizing and then you're going back into the thing you're creating and then it's getting better and bigger and you're making more money. I'm— my shit is close to that, but it's still kind of like I'm making money in different ways off of that. I feel like the people who really take over the world, it's seamless and it's a pure flywheel. And that is then you're no longer in the shadows.

It's almost like you missed a key detail though. You started putting your face on camera.

Yeah, that's a—

that's like—

that's a big change.

That's a big change, right? Because he built— he built his initial audience with these animations in this motivational speak, if you will, like the obsession content. But no one knew who Zach Pograb was.

I was a creator, but I wasn't creating anything. It's like, I'll be so transparent about that. To some people, it looked like I was probably doing all this shit, but I was doing nothing. I was fucking sitting in my office responding to emails and like getting some brand deals, but like writing some shit, but there was nothing versus now I'm actually making shit.

But the thing is, and like, this is what resonated with me is the relatability of what I want to, I want to make sure that it's very clear that you were creating something.

Yeah.

But I think just the word creation can mean so many different things. So I don't think you need to discount what it is that you were doing. Look, it had an impact on me. Like that's the only reason we're sitting here. So. You were creating something. I just don't think looking back today, it's the thing you wanted to be known for, and it's not the thing you wanted to create forever. The way that I've seen it as I've watched you over the last couple months is that you were writing about this concept of obsession and you can't get rid of it. Like, it is who you are. But I think now you're basically taking this concept that you've been building for other people and then showing your life through the lens of a camera. That you're embodying all the things that you're saying, right? So I joke, and again, I, I think I've gotten to know Zach more intimately over the last couple months than probably anyone in his life, to be honest with you, because he literally has been staying at my apartment with me. And I only tweeted once about this, and I don't know if I'll continue it or not.

You should.

We were joking about this, and this is real. He, A, doesn't know how to do like certain basic life things Or B, just doesn't give a fuck because he's— it's at the expense of him like losing his train of thought on the things he's obsessed with, right? Like I'm talking about how to use an espresso machine, or like he didn't know how to make pasta because it was like boiling water and he just— he doesn't care because he's so locked in on the thing he's obsessed with. And I, I didn't really understand what he meant by all these things he was talking about until I actually saw him living. And I'm like, wait, you quite literally will not allocate any sort of energy or time to anything that gets in your way of embodying the thing that you care about. And I was like, this is like, this kid's going to be one of the biggest creators in the world in the next 10 years.

Pasta still confuses me.

I don't know how to boil water.

I boil it and then I don't know if I should bring it back to the medium while it cooks.

See, I've just never tried. I never want to.

I'm curious, specifically living with Ben over— how long have you guys?

Not that long.

Couple weeks.

Okay, so not like a week.

I think something that is part of— we call it an obsession arc or whatever it is, but part of that is ruthlessly auditing who you're around. It could be a significant partner, it could be your family, sometimes it could be your friends. And one of the things that I've noticed since meeting Ben 6, 12 months ago, it's like that Paul Graham essay about like when ambitious people are left without other ambitious people, they flounder. And then when you meet one other person, they thrive. It's like a flower blooming. And so we can just hype up Ben, gas him up for a second. But why is it so important to hang out with people like Ben and people like Hunter and Dylan, who I know a bit?

Yeah, I mean, Ben especially, he's always on, and those are my favorite types of people, and there's not that many. He just doesn't turn off. And that's the type of energy I want to be around. It's super rare. Almost no one else is like that. And even for me, it's like my favorite people have no gap, right? There's just like one version of themselves. And in the past, I think I definitely had a gap. Ben, I don't think you really have a gap. You're always on, you're always intense, you're always intentional. Um, you take everything seriously, which is rare. And yeah, I think you're great.

Part of— I appreciate that.

We're big fans of Ben.

I know, but part of what resonated with me when I first started reading your content was I feel like there's— when you embody your true authentic self and you realize that you, in a lot of instances, will do that at the expense of relationships, because people maybe just— when you, when you start to really become your true self and you're not catering to what other people want, like, you're going to lose relationships, you're going to have people who are judging you. And it takes a level of bravery and courage and confidence to not waver from your true self at the expense of knowing those things will happen. And I think for me, when I started reading your content, it was just a level of relatability for me where like there are other people out there who feel like misfits the same way that I do. And it's just harder to come by them. And when you find them, you kind of just don't let them go, to your point, because there's not that many of them.

It's basically— it's basically you, Hunter, and Dylan, and that's basically it. Like, there are some others that I don't know that well, but like, those are my misfits. That's it.

It's just so— it's like you feel like a misinterpreted person who's now in a room of people who understand and like interpret you. Yeah, the way that you want to be. And then the other thing that I think you resonate with the most is You don't ever want to exert the energy to have to, like, explain yourself to someone. It's like they either get it or they don't.

No, I think the always-on component is specifically what people get or they don't, because most of my friends from college or high school who I still love to death, they just— it's like at 5:30 or at 6, it's done.

It's hard to spend a lot of time with them. I mean, you can. It's good, like, to, but I struggle with it. I mean, I just don't have a lot of friends anymore who are like that. I also don't do that much socially, so like, it works.

What do you— what do you struggle with right now? What are you still working on?

Like in life in general, what to like build. I feel like every week I want to basically go fully focused on something and build something, and I'm capable of that. But so that's one thing. And then number two is like, I want to do daily YouTube videos and I am, but like they're not that good yet. And I really want to make them good and not just get into the cycle of putting out content every day because that's like, that's my worst nightmare is I just put out videos every day and they stay at like 1,000 views, 500 views, right? Because then what was the point? It's like the point of the Obsession Year— Obsession Year is like one year of obsession can change your life. For my Obsession Year this year, I'm doing daily YouTube. It's like the point of it is to iterate every single day.

Um, can we, can we take a step back? Because I know I just alluded to you as like the obsession guy, but there's probably people listening who don't know who you are, what it is that you do. So I think to contextualize what obsession means to you and how you think about framing that and making it almost your life's work, just so the rest of the conversation makes sense, I think that'd be helpful.

Yeah. So, you know, like I said, I started posting words, started off really as quotes on Instagram from people I admired, like Andy Frisella, David Goggins. Right. That was like 5 years ago I started. And slowly that shifted to now, which is all my own writing. Like the last probably 2 years, it's been almost all my own writing, maybe last 3 years. And then over that time, there is this one concept that kept coming back, which is obsession. Right. And then it's in— when I say it kept coming back, it was something that I love talking about and that other people liked. It performed well on the algorithm. People liked sharing it and it was unique. And then, you know, I changed my bio probably like 2 years ago, 2 and a half, to Follow Obsession. That was always there. I was always talking about it. But then I was on a run like about a year ago in March of 2023. And after the run, my phone was at like 1% and I just had this idea, hey, let's put a tweet out and let's say put a black flag in your bio if you're one of the obsessed. And that moment, which had no planning behind it, it was just after a run. I had this thought, completely changed my life, completely changed it. And it's funny looking back that it was like on a run, which is like my whole thing now. Because, yeah, in that moment, like hundreds of people on Twitter added it. Thousands of people like commented on Instagram. It was kind of hard to track, probably like a few hundred added it to their bio on Instagram. And it was crazy. Like, I've never felt that much resonance with something. And usually it's like funny, like even the Run Cult is an example of that. We could talk about that later. This run club I started, there was no planning, just ripped it and it got instant resonance. And it was obvious that it was a good idea. It's like the best ideas are not ones— the best ideas are not ones you sit down and plan in a notebook. They just come to you instantly and you know that it's right and it's obvious and you do it. And so that's how the Obsession movement started. And basically the vision with that is to create this new type of— it's basically going to be like a religion, like it's like Stoicism, right? It's like that's kind of the framework for, I think, how big it could be, if not bigger than that. Stoicism is just this thing that people identify with. They're Stoics and they study the Stoics and like Stoicism is how they operate in their lives. I think obsession could be bigger than that, right? You have to imagine like 15 years ago, no one was talking about Stoicism. I mean, yeah, it was like it's been around forever, but like, I don't know. So that's the vision with it is like I just want to build a world around this one word in terms of all the content I make and products I make. And yeah.

I think a lot of people have the right instincts about what could hit immediately and don't want to plan and know that these could be the right ideas. Like when we start talking about this podcast, we didn't think about it. It was on our first call, like in person, obviously in the city. Yes, cool. Let's do it. We aligned on something. So one of the points I really like that you were talking about is when you have that instinct, now you can action on it immediately and you trust yourself. When we were starting this podcast, when we first started talking, we saw that instinct and we said, okay, cool, let's do it. And I think it's one of the best decisions I've made in the past couple of years. And so I'm curious for you, a couple of years ago, I'm sure you still had those same instincts or those ideas, but maybe you weren't confident enough to like action on them immediately or didn't trust yourself.

I feel like even now, like there's not total confidence in it, right? Then you would have already done it if you knew it was going to work. There has to be some like uncertainty. You know what I mean? I don't know. So you're saying like a few years ago I didn't act on it because I was less confident. Why was that?

I think there are a lot of people that have the right instincts but don't know or don't trust themselves to act on it. So what would you advise?

I would, I would actually say that what I know about Zach to be true is he actually does act on it. Um, like I asked him this question the other day. I was like, do you sit down and like block off an hour to write a bunch of tweets? And the answer is no. Like he, when it comes to him, he just rips it. Like he, he's look, he's built a muscle for 5 years in the thing that he's doing where it's second nature. And I know a lot of creators talk about this is when content creation really becomes an unlock for you is when you realize you don't change how you live your life. You just document the life you were already living at its peak. When you're a really good creator, that's what it is. You're not like faking who you are to capture like viral moments. And so for Zach, it's like when he sees something or feels something, he just writes it and chips it. And I'm sure it's taken a lot of time and muscle memory to get to that point. But I think the lightbulb moment for you is like you've been able to do that. And now that this shift is becoming more about you on camera and you as a personality and not just your words, like with cool animations, it's just like a whole nother challenge that you're just early on, I think, in enduring.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, to me though, I'm very big on the word obvious. Like I say it over and over. The right opportunities and things should feel obvious when you're trying to like sit down at your desk and map out. Like, I spent all of last year mapping out this whole Disney World of like the obsession world. I did that for the last few years, but that never changed anything. What changed it was like ripping a tweet on an idea, right? You could spend hours planning that out for years, but it's just all you have to do is pick up your phone and start something. It's fucking true.

Can we talk about the whiplash scene that you started to describe? Can you lay the groundwork for what it is?

Uh, sure. I mean, the, the breakup scene, you're saying?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, he— in Whiplash, which is the movie on obsession, where you basically have this young kid who wants to be the greatest drummer of all time, he breaks up with his girlfriend that he's seeing at the time because he basically tells her that when I'm with you and we're on a date, all I'm going to be thinking about is drumming, and then I'm going to start to resent you because, you know, you're going to get mad at me because I don't want to spend time with you because all I want to do is drum. And, and he breaks up with her and then, you know, he does go on to— I mean, I don't want to spoil the movie, but you could—

I think Ben hasn't seen it.

Yeah, I think it was the right—

yes, he goes on to be the biggest drummer, sort of.

Sort of. Yeah, something like that. I think it was the right move to break up with her, though. And I think it was the right move. We were talking about this, this Lex Fridman podcast scene. We're talking about— we're on a podcast talking about another podcast now. But there— it was just the wrong girl for him, you know. And the right girl, I think you you don't ever question that. And she adds fire to your obsession. She adds gasoline to it versus like dousing it with water. I think that's the difference there.

100%.

And it's hard. It's really hard to find that, I think. But the right girl, it's, it's obvious. Yeah, I think. I don't know.

Hormozy had this great line about how if you're not sure how your relationship is impacting you, just look at what you built or even your net worth for an easy number since you started dating.

That's a good question. That's a good one.

And it's a really easy litmus test. Yeah.

How do you— you alluded to this a little bit, but I'm curious to hear how you think about relationships in general, right? Like, I think something unique about you, at least compared to Adrian and I, is we're both very extroverted. We like enjoy talking to a bunch of people all the time in these moments of chaos. And the thing I love about you, you're just so opposite. Like, you— the other week, Dylan is very similar where you're just like, I don't want to deal with a lot of people. Like, I have only a couple friends and I know that I enjoy it and I want it that way. I want to just go build things. I don't want people in my way, and I want other people to deal with the things I don't want to do. I'm curious just how you think about relationships as a category, both just friends platonically and then also like romantic relationships.

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't have friends until like 4 years ago, 3 years ago. I had like no— I had like one friend. And it's like when I moved to the city, like I didn't have friends. So like now I have friends and I met all of them through my content, right? So like, that's kind of how I've approached it. It's just like put out, which is kind of in some ways messed up, not doing— I've done some like out— it's kind of— it's messed up to say the word outbound to make friends. I've done some of that, but I've done most— it's mostly been inbound. People just finding me from content and hitting me up, be like, let's hang out. Cool people. And like, that's kind of how I've approached it, which is sort of messed up. But, yeah, I don't know. I definitely like don't enjoy I think I'm going to be in this phase for the next 10 years where it's like, if there is not some benefit to my mission of us hanging out, there's kind of— it's kind of pointless. But think about it. Like, I've been hanging out with you and some of your friends. It's like most of these people are in that category. They're creating something, they're running their— right, right. Yeah. Like, how often do I hang out with someone just random? Never.

No, you don't.

But I would, I would— like, I'm not opposed.

I think that's what we had in common, though.

Yeah. Uh, you're mostly like that too, I think, though.

Yeah, right. I, I—

my bullshit meter is very low, but you just have more of like a social battery than me, I think. Yeah, 100%.

But But it does. I don't think that changes the type of people that I prioritize hanging around.

It's really— it's kind of messed up, though. Like, Mark Cuban has this quote. I'm going to find it. Maybe you could put it in. But it's just like, yeah, if you can't, like, somehow make me more money, like, we're not getting dinner. Like, that was when he was, like, young. He probably still feels that way. He's like, I don't have time for dinner. I'll send you the quote. Mark Cuban's old book, Savage Book, because he was pure obsessive, like, literally taught himself how to code and just lived in the shittiest apartment. And fucking sold like, um, computer consulting, whatever he did. Um, and yeah, he just, he was on the mission.

I think that's something that I have. I, it's something I go back and forth on in my mind all the time as it relates to relationships, because I candidly am someone who, I struggle to maintain relationships where it's not giving me something in return. And that something doesn't always have to be like money, right? There's, it could be happiness. There's a number of things it can be. But I think when you become someone who's so driven and so motivated and you want to build things, you want to create things, it's so hard to not look at every aspect of your life and figure out how it fits into the bigger picture of what you're doing. Because if you're doing something that you don't think fits into it, you feel like you're distracted, veering off a path that you don't want to be on. And that just trickles into every single aspect of my life. And if you ask my roommate, he always says this to people, he's like, Ben hates stupid people. Like, he just can't do it. And it sounds terrible, but it It's not like if you're stupid, check out, do with you.

I check out.

I'm not— if it's not interesting, I'm not going to fake it.

Yeah, I think every touchpoint in a relationship needs to reinforce going back to do it again or to hang out with them again.

The one thing I will say, like a more tactical thing on relationships, because, dude, when I was younger, I had like the most extreme social anxiety. So I would literally study how to talk to people. Like I read a book called How to Talk to Anyone, 92 Tips, great book. And in it, one of the tips is Treat new friends like you've known them forever. And I read that book and then I went to like this New Year's Eve party and pretended that with this guy, Jack. I shouldn't have said his name, but like, said his name. And at the end of the night, he's like, Zach, I feel like we've been friends forever. And I'm like, fuck. So anyway, one of these tactical things I like is this is not even cheating. It's just like when you like someone's work, just tell them and that's it. DM them instantly and say, I like this. Good shit. Don't ever ask anything else. And that, like, I've done that subconsciously over last year maybe, and I've met a lot of people through that. And what's funny is when my stuff started blowing up last year, tons of people hit me up, and the people who were killers all did exactly that. They didn't ask me for anything. They didn't want to do a call. They just DM me and say, sick work, keep it up. That's it.

Do you think that, uh, it's very common amongst creators or successful ones that that for that matter, felt very similarly to you did growing up, where they resorted to the internet because they maybe didn't feel like they had friends, and you feel misunderstood, and like your internet friends are the people who understood you?

Probably. Played video games a lot as a kid. That's kind of where I felt like comfortable. Maybe. I don't know. There has to be something weird about your upbringing, I think, to make you do what I want to do.

Do you think you have a big chip on your shoulder right now?

Chip on my shoulder? Like, uh, what does that mean again? Like Something to prove. Yeah, yeah, totally. I think I've always felt that.

Fuck yeah, he does.

I've always felt that though.

Where do you think that comes from?

But what do you, what do you mean though exactly?

Chip on your shoulder. I know, I know he does. I know he does because he talks about it with me. Like chip on your shoulder, like you're, you're going to be the best and like nothing's getting in your way, and you're not necessarily arrogant about it, but you won't shy away from it. I think you know the example that I'm referring to.

Yeah, yeah. And I've been— you talking about the running?

Yeah, one very specific He basically like put a tweet out about another runner, how he's just going to do what he did, but better.

Oh, Nick Bare. Yeah, yeah. He's going to crush him.

He doesn't even hide from it.

But it's super— yeah. The thing is, though, I'm super cocky with that stuff, but I'm also like the most humble guy in other ways. So it's okay. I wasn't really cocky until like 2 months ago, so I feel like I can get away with it.

What changed?

Just like putting my face out there and doing the work and actually becoming a savage doing runs.

Nick Bare does like the hybrid stuff, right?

Yeah, but he's also an insane runner. And to be fair, I'm not that close to him yet, but getting there. And also, like, it's just totally different. I'm just joking, but it would be fun to, like, be a little competitive with him.

Where do you think that competitive streak comes from? Is that childhood thing? Is that soccer?

It's two things. It's a— it's— yeah, it's like feeling like a failure as a kid, just like being really shy in school and feeling like a loser. But honestly, a lot of it comes from soccer in college where all I did in my whole life was play soccer. And then when I went to college, I played in like one game. So because I never succeeded there, I just never— I never won in life, you know? I think if I succeeded in college and had an average career, I would— we wouldn't be talking. Probably wouldn't be making content. Probably working in some office, like, hating my life. But because I didn't, I just like, I'm going to chase this win forever that I'll never get. But that's the whole point. And yeah, just since I was young, though, I don't know where it came from. I've been trying to think about this because I hung out with someone the other day who, he basically had this delusional dream since he was a kid and he's always gone towards this dream and never told really anybody about it. And I've kind of had that too, in terms of wanting to be this like insane figure, like Arnold Schwarzenegger level fame and reach. And it's interesting to think about where that comes from. I don't have a specific answer.

I think I, I have my answer as to where I think it comes from and it's the same answer I give. And I'll ask him the question first and then I'll tell you. What do you think are the 3 common, most common traits of high performers?

Um, I don't know. Self-belief, intensity, and like long-term vision. Maybe. I don't know.

My number 1 answer, uh, and I think it was Hormozy who said this as well, is insecurity.

Mm. Yeah. That's a huge one.

So real.

And so, I mean, the, the framing behind that is that you never feel like you're enough.

Yeah. That's—

and you're on this treadmill versus yourself.

Yeah. That's exactly it. Exactly, man.

And so you just want more and more and more and more, and you'll become one of the highest performers because there is never— it doesn't matter what other people say, because like, I could sit here and tell you you're great, you've done it all, and then you'll look in the mirror and be like, I'm not enough, I didn't do enough. And so you're going to continue to do more. And so I, I think that is like the number one thing, because like, if someone gave you $10 million tomorrow and said, Zach, go sit on a beach and just like sit there and retire, like, you wouldn't be able to. Because it's, it's you versus yourself in this game of, I mean, life.

Yeah, yeah, 100%. It's insecurity, 100%. It's a great answer. I've always had that. I'm still insecure about everything. It's like, that will probably never go away, but I'll just like do as much— I'll just do as much as I can to like suppress it a little bit.

What are you insecure about now?

I don't know. Less than I used to be, I guess. Uh, less than I used to be because I've done some stuff. I actually haven't done anything, but I've done stuff that people are commending me for, which is why I'm getting a little cocky, which is kind of dangerous.

But so does the social validation help you?

Maybe a little bit. It's cool to be like— the best feeling ever is when the people you— the people that inspired you start to get inspired by you. And I'm starting to feel that a little bit, right? Where like Andy Frisella is like inspired by me somehow, like telling me that. And like, that's the sickest shit ever. And I don't know what it makes me insecure right now. I think if I can actually live up to everything I'm talking about, I don't doubt it though, you know, so like, I think I will. So I don't know if that actually makes me insecure. I don't know. I don't have an answer. I am insecure about stuff, though. I guess if I just— if I can actually do it, everything I'm trying to do, even though I don't really think about it.

But do you think there's actually like—

I think the honest answer is I'm becoming less insecure, but I still definitely have it.

Do you think there's an actual quantifiable goal, though? Because what I hear when I hear your answer of like, to do all the things that I want to do, I feel like part of your— part of your ambition, I think part of a lot of people's ambition is qualitative.

Yeah, right. Like, I've been thinking about this. Is there— because this guy I met who has this delusional goal, It was super specific and it will take him decades. I don't really have that.

So what was the goal?

I don't, I don't want to share it, but what was his? I can't share it. But, um, it was just to do this specific thing over decades. And, uh, you know, it's like, it's useful to have that. Like, for mine, that would be like artist, athlete, entrepreneur, reach the pinnacle of all three. It's like, this is kind of what I've been thinking about. It's like artist, reach the pinnacle of whatever I'm doing. So have the best number one book in the world if I'm writing books. Athlete, be the best marathon runner in the world for whatever thing I'm trying to do. Entrepreneur, I don't know, have like a billion-dollar portfolio of brands or things. Those are pretty specific. That sounds pretty good. But like, is that enough? Probably not. So I don't know.

The one thing that I've— or among others, but the one thing that I've learned from your content, despite not having meeting you, despite this is the first time we're hanging out, is the importance of repeating the same thing. Over and over and over. Did you learn that from somewhere? Was that just something you stumbled on?

No, but it's like the most important thing ever, right? I don't remember learning that anywhere. I genuinely think my whole thing with like owning a word is the only reason I'm going to have any success, or it's the main reason behind the success I'll have over decades. And no one does it, which is crazy. I don't know where I learned it, but I do. I like one time I tweeted this and I think it's helpful. It's like If you want to be known for something, talk about it often. If you want to be known for one thing, talk about it daily. But if you want to be the only one known for one thing, you have to talk about it multiple times a day. And that's what I've done with Obsession basically every day for years, like 2 years. And it works. It's working. Like, my first million guys are talking about it. It's happening because I fucking hammer it. You have to. And I don't remember where I learned that from. I just did it. I think. All I did was obsess over like branding and marketing though for years. All I did was like read books and read essays for years, right? Like 10 Bullets, right? My newsletter, just a curation of the stuff I'm learning. Part of the reason why I've been a little slower with it is I'm just not consuming that much right now, right? It's like, that's what that— that's why the newsletter was good. It was just literally the shit I was consuming. That's all I did for years. So I think like, and part of me would regret that sometimes. Like I would just sit in my— when I live with my mom, like sit there reading books and like But that stuff adds up and like gives me these insights that other people don't have. Not that mine are any better than anyone else's, but it's like, it's just years of obsession. I don't know, literally created the idea of owning a word like obsession. But I think it's the most important thing ever to like own this thing and hammer it every single day. The reason it's so important, I was just talking about this, is because now I'm not just a creator. It's not about me anymore. It's about this thing I'm building outside of myself. And we can talk more about that if you want, but that's just like, that to me is everything.

Talk to me about the importance of the artist side of this, because you can create and write the best content in the world or shoot the best content in the world. But the first thing that I actually saw about your content, again, from afar, was how much it looked like old, like, Gap and J.Crew and Apple ads. And the font choices, the color choices, like, were your parents artists? Did you grow up, like, artistic?

No. No, my brother, older brother's an artist, but that definitely counts.

Yeah, he just like casually drops it like, only this thing.

He's not really an artist. Uh, he, he'll not watch this.

Where does that come from?

He's a graphic— he's like a graphic designer.

It's not really exactly what we're talking about.

He's not— no, but he's like a graphic designer for companies. That's amazing. I wouldn't even call that art. I'd call that like service. Sorry, Brandon. But, um, he actually is a great artist. Sorry, sorry.

He actually—

he actually— sorry, he is a great artist. He just like for work he does something else. Anyway, I think it's everything. I think like at its core. Okay, so we're— my secret kind of superpower with all the writing stuff has always been the design. I think like even on Instagram now I do these like handwritten posts and those do well because of the design of them. Partially, big partially. And, you know, I've always loved it. I think I've— some part of me thinks I love design even more than writing, right? Like I have this mood board that is just like That's like my, like, blood of, like, everything I'm doing. And like, I don't know, it's just— I don't know where that started or came from. I think it's just like in someone or it's not having like an eye for things. Not that I have like the most— the best eye ever, but like taste. It's taste. Yeah. It's— I love— it's just downstream of the stuff I love. I love those old Think Different Apple ads, right? I love them so much. And so to be able to like kind of tweak it as, you know, the final Obsession, like everything I'm creating is downstream of the stuff I love. Like I started doing these like cartoons around Obsession those are coming from this, like, random cartoon I liked called, like, Over the Garden Wall. You can go Google it. It's like this one-season cartoon of these— it's like an Alice in Wonderland type fall cartoon. And I just like, oh, I love this style. Let me try to bring this into the world of Obsession. And it's like, that's what it is. It's just like you have all these things you consume and you filter it down and then you combine it all and then you make new stuff. And most people don't really pay attention to that stuff. But I don't know, it's like the AI pictures, right? AI pictures. I, like, give people shit on social media because they all look so bad when you do, like, the same prompts. Mine, I think, look pretty, pretty sick and like they're unique and they perform well. It's not that much harder to make something unique with those platforms. Just takes like effort. Yeah, I don't know. I love it though. The design stuff, that's like my favorite, one of my favorite parts because that's what I'm doing now. Just genuinely feels like I'm waking up and just creating this art project all day and it's fun.

So we talked about the artist PCU. I want to go to the next vertical of what you define as the 3 categories, which is athlete.

Yeah.

You put on a pair of running shoes a couple of months ago and haven't taken them off. Why?

I got into running because I was hanging out with Hunter Weiss and Casey Neistat and felt fat. Felt fat. So I need to fix that. And like, I also did this photo shoot with this brand, Ten Thousand, and also felt fat in that. It's like 230 pounds, 6'3". So not like fat fat, but like kind of chubby.

Remember the shorts?

Yeah, sick, right?

Those were sick.

Those were cool.

They were sick, right? Yeah, it was cool. But I didn't like the way I looked in the photo shoot. I didn't like the way I felt. And I was like, all right. And I always felt like I need to become a savage. I'm 27. I've never became a true savage. I need to become a savage. And so I don't know, slowly last year, like I was slow up until literally November. Not joking. I didn't run until under like an 8-minute pace, 8-minute per mile pace till like November, literally. Maybe for like short runs, I would run like 7-something. And then, yeah, I just slowly got totally obsessed with it. The moment I got really obsessed was when I signed up for my first marathon because of Danny Miranda. We did our first marathon together in December. Once I signed up for that, the obsession completely consumed me and I just like was staying up all night watching videos, learning how to take gels, how to do pacing, what workouts to do, and did, you know, pretty good in my first marathon for not a lot of training. And now the obsession has completely consumed my life and is going to be a big part of everything I do now.

What is it about running like? Is there a feeling or an emotion that you get from it that allows you to just be consumed by it to the degree that you are? Like, I want to— I want to just reiterate for you to understand the extent of his obsession with running. I walked upstairs the other day into the living room and he was telling me how he was watching like a video about marathons on YouTube and started crying.

I did this living room.

Yeah. And he started crying, like watching a video about like people accomplishing goals or marathons and My first thought in my head was, dude, what the fuck is wrong with you? And then my second thought was like, holy shit, this— he's so— he embodies what he feels all the time. And now all— when I talk to him, he's either on a run or he's like writing, and that's it. But the writing thing is what I know him for. The running thing is the new thing that I've watched evolve since we've met. So I really just am trying to dig a little deeper to understand where this is coming from.

It came on like— like I said, I was trying to—

because I think like to you— but not to cut you off, but your point of 'Uh, I didn't like the way I looked and I met Casey and Hunter, so I started running.' Fine, but to start running and then to stay running and then to do what you're trying to do, that doesn't just come from because you didn't like the way you look. There's more to that.

Yeah, that was honestly probably a small piece of it. Um, it was also— that's where I found like this version of myself who I'm becoming now, like the true obsessed self. I found it on those runs every morning. Like, it's impossible— think about it— it's impossible not to change if you're waking up early and running by yourself every morning. That's all I did all last year. And I was really struggling with like what I wanted to do, like turning pro. I was, I was in a shadow career. I was not pro. And the run turned me into that. Like, I remember there were moments, especially on the long runs, those long runs change you. Like, you're about to start doing a lot more long runs in your prep and you've done some, but it's like those long runs change you, especially the good ones. And like, I would go on those long runs and there'd be sections where I'd go faster than I've ever gone and there is an intensity and energy that literally took me over and made me feel like an entirely new person. And a piece of that stays with you after the run. And, and that is what made me so addicted. And then obviously, once I got good, it's like, it's fun to be good at something. And like, I love that. And I love that, like, like, even today, I had a bad run today. It was my first bad run ever.

So did I.

You did?

Well, yeah, I don't want— it's not about me, this is about you, but I am pissed because I did too.

So today I've basically twice a week in marathon prep, you're going out for like workouts and not all— usually one of those at least is like a big test where like this really matters. This shows you where you're at, like sprint workouts or so. Those actually don't matter that much to me. It's more just like these long runs where you're trying to hit certain paces or like today I did a 6-mile test, right? It's like a test, like, let's see what you can do. And so going out on those and just like destroying my expectations, like doing way better, is so addicting. And that's all I felt today. It was the first time in literally months where I didn't reach my goal. So I was like, I'm kind of like depressed right now. But, uh, that game is so addicting to me, those hard runs and like trying to push the paces and pushing through that for like, you know, an hour plus, 2 hours sometimes. It's— I don't know, I love it so much. I genuinely think the reason I'm a good runner is because I push harder than anyone else, right? Like, I don't think people go to the mental state that I go to twice a week. Um, I'm sure they do, and they definitely do, and some people definitely go even further than me, but I'm going to keep having that like chip on my shoulder that like they don't, and I don't think they do. I—

it's been— obviously this is our first time back filming in a while, um, and so a lot of things have evolved for us even just in our own lives. And I think one thing that I haven't talked about on this podcast, which I've talked with Zach about extensively, I think you briefly, is when I got back into running, um, a huge piece of it for me actually was because my therapist talked me into exercising with no headphones. So I don't wear headphones anymore when I exercise, and more specifically when I run. And that has been probably one of the most life-changing change— like life-changing moments or changes in my life over the last 6 months. Um, because for me, I realized as someone who lives in a world of chaos all the time, whether it's physically or digitally, I struggle to disconnect from everything. And so going out on runs with no headphones is like the first time where I'm really by myself and I've been able to process so many thoughts and have so many unresolved problems that get solved when I'm running that I realized sometimes I just keep running because of what's going on in my brain, not because I actually like running. Like, on, I think it was January 2nd, right? Zach and I were— we went for a 6-mile run with our friend Casey, the one who introduced us. And when we got to the end of 6 miles, Zach had done like a crazy run the day before. So he's like, I'm done. Like, I'm not going more. I looked at him, I was like, dude, I have to keep running. And I ran a half marathon that day and I hadn't run more than like 4 miles since my 2 years ago in marathon training. And I was running at speeds that I don't even run it now. And I'm actually in training. And I realized it was because I was in this flow state mentally that was so addicting that I, I just didn't want to stop. And so I've started to really understand what you're talking about with the long runs of like, if you can really manage this battle with yourself, like you can learn so much about yourself and overcome so many things. And so for anyone listening who thinks it's crazy, like you have, if you want to try running with no headphones, don't give up after your first 2 times, cuz you'll probably stop like very quickly. But when you know, you know, if you get over that hump of recognizing the value you get from it. And it's something that I would just recommend to so many people.

Yeah.

And that, that half marathon, like, that was one of those runs that changes you forever, that changed you as a runner and as a person. 100%, right?

I wasn't planning on doing a marathon.

Exactly. You weren't planning on it. You just did it. That's what I mean. The best things, they're just— you just do them. You just rip it.

No, I mean, after the half, like, I finished.

Oh, yeah.

And then I'm like, all right, I'm going to train for another marathon.

I signed up for a marathon because you got addicted to the feeling. That's what I mean. That's what made me fall in love with it. Those runs where I tapped into that feeling, what you're describing, where you push beyond what you thought you could do. It's incredible and it's so addicting. And then the rest of life just feels kind of like a joke. Like even this, like, what are we even doing here? I was just out there this morning dying at like 180 heart rate for like 40 minutes. It's painful.

I think that, that feeling and that flow that you feel, it's so wild seeing the back and forth between— my outlet right now is like soccer. I'll go play for an hour. And you come out with this very, like, pure, relaxed feeling.

Yeah.

Versus when I'm going to the gym or I'm lifting and I got my headphones in, I have a podcast in and I'm reading emails and I'm catching up on Slack. So different coming out of an hour in the gym where I'm basically kind of in work mode. Yeah. And at the same time I'm trying to work out and I just kind of feel shitty after versus going for a long run or going to play sport without your phone. It's night and day.

The difference, they're so different. Yeah, I mean, that's part of why, like, I fell out of love with lifting. That's all I did for years, and like, there was just no intensity to it anymore. There was no excitement, there was no progress, and that's mostly my fault. Yeah, sports are great too. Sports can give you that feeling, I think. I played soccer, played soccer this fall a lot too, but I don't know, I found something else in the running, you know, that I just loved. I think I was, I was built for like solo sports, you know, 100%. Um, You don't really get that in soccer for sure.

Have you tried lifting without your phone?

I've done it a few times and it's more enjoyable. It's definitely more enjoyable, but still nothing compares to being fully without the phone. And also, I think it is important that you're doing something that you're very good at, like soccer. I played a decent amount growing up. And so when you're playing a sport that you're good at, it's pretty damn fun to keep doing it.

Or running.

Once you get really good, it's pretty damn fun to keep doing it.

Yeah, it's like, would I be so into running if I was just like, if I was slow? That's a good question. I don't think so. I probably would have done something else. I don't know. It's a good question. It's definitely a huge piece. I love the idea of being faster than anyone I know.

Let's talk about Run Cult.

Yeah, it's great.

What is it? Give the rundown. Yeah.

I mean, last like 4 or 5 months, me also, Hunter Weiss, like talking about starting some kind of run club because it's just like a thing happening. These run clubs are like the new I don't know what you equate them to. I equate them to like the gyms of running. Like running, there's no gym because you just do it outside. But running clubs are like you get people together and they do it together. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's just like we kind of couldn't figure out an idea. And then like the other ideas I was saying, it just one that week I started to like kind of have this idea. And I'm pretty sure the night before I launched The Run Cult, I had the name come to me in like the shower or something. And I was like, this is it. So obvious. Go and do it. And I think I was on the phone with you like right before I launched it and you were like, Zach, like it's kind of rushed. Like, go do it. I'm like, Ben, shut up. I'm doing it. And I was nicer. I didn't— I don't think I said shut up.

It's the least Ben thing I've heard.

Yeah. No, but he was—

Well, I'll tell you why, because Zach is a very introverted person. And the thing that I don't think was given much thought, and look, I'm always willing to be proven wrong, was that when you launch something like this, people are doing it because of you. And now you have an obligation, like when Zach goes there on Monday mornings, sure, it's fun, but it's work, right? Like, he's got 50+ people showing up every Monday morning to go run with him, and they're there because of you. They're, they're there because of the brand you built. Sure, it, it becomes bigger than you, and you remove yourself, and now you've built a really cool community. But for me, I was just watching Zach as someone I know to be introverted, doesn't want to talk to a million people, who just impulsively was like, all right, run club, it's starting tomorrow. And I was like, dude, maybe we just like talk about it for a minute. He's like, I posted it and I was like, all right, here we go.

I did a good job, I think, actually.

You crushed it.

The way I promoted it, I launched it like 3 days out. We got 50 people to come to the first one. It was sick.

He got 50 strangers to show up and run sprints on the Williamsburg Bridge.

Super sick. And the second one at 52. Last week was a little smaller because I, I cut down the paces and I didn't promote it. But, um, yeah, I don't know, it's sick. I think I needed to start something like that. Um, there's a lot of options for me what I want to do with it. I could take it as big as I want to. I can make it as small as I want to, which is fun. It's cool to be completely in control of something, right? Like, no one could tell me what to do. Um, yeah, it's, uh, we'll see what happens with it. I'm, I'm not— I have no plans of stopping it. Um, I want to figure out ways to make it more unique because right now it is basically just a run club, right? Which is fine. That's cool. Yeah, we do like sprints, and yeah, the vibe is different. That's cool.

But it's like everyone also wears all black.

I make them. Yeah, I tell them wear all black.

Yeah, dude, he's building an actual—

you have to wear all black. It's a rule. And if you don't wear all black, I just give you shit the whole time. And those people haven't come back.

Sure, they're having great mornings.

Well, it's also— we also cut off the paces. I'm like, if you don't have a 10-minute pace, don't come. And like, some people still come, and I kind of like—

in the beginning, take out their legs.

Well, not in the beginning.

Zach comes to me, he's like, Ben, how do I tell this person not to come back? I was like, oh man.

Well, now I just give them shit in the beginning.

Now we're getting into PR nightmares. Yeah, well, I guess you gotta cancel it on your way up to the the top of some point.

The running community— so, okay, here's part of why I'm so excited about the running stuff is I love entering a field and just ignoring everybody. I kind of did this with my photo booth. To be fair, that was like a relatively small business, but, but that's kind of what I did. Like, all those people were talking to wedding planners all the time and doing all this shit, and I was just like, fuck you guys, I'm going to do Google Ads and get my own customers, right? Same shit here. It's just instead of Google Ads, I'm building a running community and brand and content and I have a fucking audience. I don't need anybody. I don't need to network. I had this banger quote in my video the other day. It's super cocky, but it's like, I don't need to network. I am the network. That's a fucking banger.

It's a bar.

That's a bar.

If you're a creator, you are the network. You don't need anybody. And, uh, it's sick. Like, most people to do what I did the other week, you have to like organize people and collab with people. But no. I could just post a story and people show up. And to be fair, though, actually, a lot of people came to that— are coming to that who didn't know me at all, which is cool. A lot of people just— because that means, that means it's a good product. That means people are, people are sharing it and like, oh, join this run cult. They don't even— a lot of people didn't even know who I was, which is sick. Yeah.

Most run clubs are all around kind of like love and inclusive.

Inclusive. Yeah. So that's what, that's what I was saying. I got— I started to get shit because the running community is very like don't step on our toes, be inclusive, get more people into running. I'm like, no. Like, I posted a post yesterday, it was a little harsh, I might— he might delete it. I was like, running is not fun, running is not about friends, running is like— should be war. And like, I just love that.

But you know what's crazy about it is that Zach is appealing to a percentage of like— his audience is a percentage of people who don't feel like they fit into normal run clubs because they feel the same way he does. They just don't have the audience and the distribution to go talk about it broadly, and Zach's like the brave person speaking about it. And all the people who resonate with his message are the people showing up to do sprints with him and a bunch of other strangers on Monday mornings.

It's great too, because it's like, yeah, there's that piece, which is like people— most people, not all, I would say probably like 60, 70, maybe 70% now have seen my stuff. So it's like they know the vibe already. They followed me. Like, you follow me, like, you know the vibe. And then there's also— there wasn't really a run club for like guys. Like, think about it. Did you ever go to a run club?

I love Hope in Greenpoint. And I avoid all the run clubs because they're like lovey-dovey, little too lovey-dovey.

They're a little feminine. And just like, guys, like, that's not something a guy does. You don't go to a run club to meet guys. Like, even saying it, it's like awkward. I'm gonna bet I'm gonna like— no offense to Tyler Endorphins, no offense to Tyler and Endorphins, but like, I was at Endorphins, it's like 70% girls. Maybe I'm wrong, but it was definitely majority girls. It's just not a behavior guys do yet. And maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's like guys just don't go to run clubs to meet guys.

It's just Yeah, but like there's a lot of guys who go to run clubs to meet girls, so I just think that it's— I just think it's like what— like Tyler has a lot of guys and I'm sure they meet plenty of girls there, but he'll tell you that his mission— you guys are so opposite, which is what I love. Like he's all about good energy and love and community, and you're like, no, fuck that, just like put your head down and go do things that hurt.

Like, I want people to meet, become friends too, but it's like—

no, I know, but it's fine though. It's okay to have different messages.

And like, and truthfully, I don't think running is a group sport. I think it's cool to run with people and meet people, but like, go run alone. Like, do this once a week with people, maybe run with someone like one other time during the week. To be fair, like, I'm lucky. Like, I have a lot of cool friends who are runners. Most people don't have that, really. Um, not to be like cocky, but like, just true. Um, and so like, I don't know, the beauty of running is alone. It's not with people.

I have another thing that I, I want to talk about with you, and I I have a feeling somehow Manscaped will hear this bit they're about to discuss because I'm just like adamant that they at least hear about it. You have gotten over 50 people to shave their head.

Might be more, might be more.

Can you explain?

Sure. I mean, yeah, like last fall I was kind of going through this phase, right? Like turning pro for the first time, like really starting to realize I had to handle shit in my life and had to start running more and like was getting through all this stuff. And one day I just decided to completely shave my head. And part of that was probably Hunter Weiss who did it. He kind of was like, dude, shave your head, it's great. And also like I was watching movies. I think something that triggered me was a Beckham documentary.

Oh, great doc.

Great doc. And he shaved his head once after— I think he was like going through something. It might have been after he did like the infamous red card.

He was pissed at Ferguson.

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah, that's when he did it, I think. Or it was something. But I was like, fuck it, I need to shave my head. And at first it was like super uncomfortable, but then I just loved it. And I haven't— like, right now this is kind of almost getting long. I haven't— I've kept it like this length max for like months now, and I love it. And I never had hair like this. And I just think if you want to reinvent yourself as a, as a guy or even as a girl, there's literally no better way than shaving your head. Because now this is what my actual tweet was, which went like kind of viral. It was like, if you want to change your life, shave your head and sign up for something extreme where you have to train every single day for it. Whether that's a marathon or a fight or something, because then you're getting in different physical shape. And every time you look in the mirror, you're different. It's like the amount of change that creates in you, in your self-image, like physically and literally every day, is insane. That's why— part of why I changed so quickly is because I shaved my head, 100%. So like, I was a new person overnight. And I also think if you're listening to this, you should shave it completely the first time because it makes you look like a freak, and you need that free— you need— not joking, you need like, uh, two—

that's why I'm laughing because I know you're not joking.

You need like a 2-month freak period where you can't really talk to girls, you can't really— you look— can't go outside, you look like you either have cancer or you just like are fucked up. And, and you need that period. A lot of the Obsession Arc guys are being soft and doing my haircut just because, I don't know, maybe they want to just copy me. This is, uh, right now I'm doing skin on the side, skin fade, 4 on top. It's like the haircut. But honestly, that's too long. You look good with that. I think if you have a good head, if you don't, you're just fucked. But if you, if you really want the effects of the obsession arc, you got to shave it completely. Skin or like whatever one.

Do you know, do you know the famous TikTok? He's not famous, but one of this huge TikToker, he does haircuts. No, his name Vinny Cuts. Is that his name?

Yeah.

He's like a massive TikToker and he just tells these really cool stories while he's cutting people's hair. And I just have— it's gonna happen because it has to happen. I want to do a collab with Zach, Vinny, and Manscaped where Zach would just get all these people to show up and Vinny will shave their heads and Manscaped will be the sponsor of this event. What is it?

There's also a charity, right, that does shaved heads? St. Patrick's?

I'm not, I'm not part of the shaved head gang.

That might be cool too.

Like, we shave our heads.

No, that might be sick too. Actually, there's no— there's a charity on Long Island where people go and they shave their heads. That would be sick.

Great.

Me, Manscaped, charity, and just make this sick thing done. Because like, you shave your head, you donate your hair, you know?

So yeah, I get it.

It would be cool to do it for charity. Um, yeah, dude, this is awesome.

I, uh, I feel like I got to learn so much more about you, and I had a lot of unresolved questions even though I spent a lot of time with him. Um, I appreciate you coming on and joining us today.

Of course. Pleasure.

Thanks, brother. Part 2 coming soon. Can you tell people where to look, where to go find you?

Uh, yeah. Best place to find me right now, honestly, if you want to see what I'm about, is YouTube. Uh, just my name, Zach Pogrob, P-O-G-R-O-B. But my main platform is Instagram at my name, um, Zach Pogrob. And Twitter. Twitter is where the cult really is for Obsession, so check that out. And my newsletter, 10 Bullets.

Just walk around Nolita, redacted Spring Street, find a bald man walking around.

Yes, that'll be me. I told you I got recognized by this girl who just said, "Obsessed." Just screamed at you? Screamed at me, "Obsessed," and then walked away. Like, I tried to talk to her, just put her headphones, walked away.

If you want to meet Zach, just walk around Nolita. You'll find him.

And don't say my name. Just say, like, "Obsession." Love it.

Thanks, Miles.

Thanks, man.