#027: Q&A with Adrian & Ben: Delegation Playbooks for First-Time Founders

When it comes to that delegation, do you think the belief is valid and the fear is valid, or is it just something you're not comfortable with?

If you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. But that doesn't scale exponentially. I would get stressed out about things an irrational amount or try to control things that I shouldn't. And then when you try to zoom out and think about calculating the value of your time and you realize you're doing things you shouldn't be because it's not the highest impact of your time, eventually you have to learn to trust and let go. And then part of that just goes back to your diligence process in terms of hiring, who you're delegating, how effective are you in communicating thing that you're delegating so they actually do a good job of it. Because the other thing that I think I've learned the hard way is that someone is only going to be as good at something as your ability to set them up for success. So if you cut corners in terms of communication and explaining, you're going to see that impact on the back end of it. In our second Q&A episode, we dive deep on how first-time founders can tactically improve their delegation skills, Ben's time management best practices to boost productivity, and why founders need to spend 80% of their time on their core strengths. Welcome back to episode 27 of the Turning Pro Pod. This is a Ben and Adrian episode. I think it's a business therapy session. We decided we want to start doing some more episodes without guests just to jump into our lives a little bit more. Oh yeah.

All right. So episode 2 of Ben and Adrian go to therapy with each other. All right, cool. So the way we're going to frame this is part 1 of recap of the past, like, month or 2 with personal, professional. Part 2 is, you know, we're late February right now. So thinking through March and Q2, again, personal, professional plans, and then layered in any big learnings, any mistakes or things that we haven't done well, any big lessons that we kind of want to pivot accordingly. Does that work? Yeah.

I mean, for me, I feel like when I think about personal, professional, it's like I'm either running or I'm building Platter right now. I'm training for a marathon that I'm doing April. I think it's 20— April 28th.

What was the catalyst for that?

Uh, probably twofold. One, that I wasn't happy with my time for my first marathon, even though I just— I don't know, I was never a runner, so it's probably delusional of me. Actually, threefold. One, that I wasn't happy with my time. The second one is, for whatever reason, I feel like I'm more productive when I'm like training towards something physically. And then the third one is I feel like I've just been surrounded by a ton of fitness people lately who are all like doing crazy things, and it just slowly subconsciously pushes you into wanting to compete with something. And so I just decided to spontaneously sign up for a marathon and I actually got a running coach for this one, which has been interesting. But nonetheless, I did my first day of PT yesterday because my hip is really bothering me.

Let's go. Well, I guess that's not a good thing.

No, but it's the nature of the game.

When you told me that you signed up for the marathon, the first thing that struck me was just how impactful the people around you are. I know that's like the most common saying, not just in startups but in life, of like, you are who you're around. When you told me that you were starting training, I was like, well, yeah, because Zach's been like sleeping on his couch and influencing him on running for the past 3 months.

Dude, it's real. It's 100% real. I'm actually— we're both doing the marathon.

Yeah.

Zach Pogrob. We just put out an episode with him. For those of you who are listening, he was training for Austin. He got hurt like 2 weeks before, which sucks because he was working so hard and he's now going to reshift his focus to doing the Eugene one, which is the one I'm doing in Oregon.

You guys are running it together.

I mean, define running together. No, definitely not. My goal is sub-3:30. He's going for 2:50, I think, is his goal. Sub-3:30, is that like 8-minute pace? I think it's like 8 minutes and 1 second.

Uh, horrible.

What?

It's like doable if you're training a bit.

Yeah, I mean, it's all relative, right? Like, I think the caveat for me is that I've been an athlete most of my life, but I have no base for running because I was playing hockey and my hips are not conducive for running because I've deteriorated them from skating for 20 years. But nonetheless, that's been like a huge, huge piece of my life over the last couple weeks. And then I think with Platter, definitely learned a lot. Uh, we're growing, things are moving. I mean, quick recap from the month of February: we were profitable, which was great. We had another record month in terms of new customers. We launched our self-serve product, uh, revamped the website. Brought on a couple more team members. That is also still growing, and I feel like we're starting to catch our stride a little bit, which has been exciting. But I think with anything else, like, we're experiencing growing pains as well. I think one of the— I don't know if it's mistakes or reflections that I've made— is we've, uh, had a little bit of struggle in terms of focus from like a marketing perspective, because now you have different partners who want to work with you, you have all these different opportunities that get thrown at you. With a new product. We have all these new ideas and all of a sudden it's like we're— I felt like for a minute I was a bouncy ball, uh, with all these different ideas. And then eventually last week I had this holy shit moment. I was like, all right, reel it back in. What's actually working? Like focus— Hormozy always talks about this, but like focus on the channel that's actually working for you and just like double down. And I think we got distracted for a little bit. And so that was something where I had to like reel it back in. And then I think another piece of it as well was starting to be better about delegating, right? Because our team is growing and there's more responsibility. And so I think letting go has been a really challenging thing for me. And I know watching a lot of my founder friends that have been able to scale exponentially, they're very good at delegating and putting trust in other people and empowering other people. And it's definitely something that I think I'm struggling with a little bit as we grow. But I mean, it's a learning curve.

It's funny when you mention delegation, early days of Verbatim, the, the reason we didn't grow as fast as we did was because I wouldn't delegate hate doing the interviews, which is like the raw material for the content. I remember I had a coach at the time and I was like, David, I just don't think I can hand these off. Like, it's so precious, right? Like, if I'm working with you and you introduce me to your biggest customer, like, I don't, I don't want to mess it up, right? So I was like, I could never do this. And he was like, what are you, what are you talking about, man? And Claire, who I was just on a call with, was the first person I really trusted to go run with it. And now she does it way better than I do, right? Because I have other stuff going on. I have other competing priorities. So I'm curious for you. When it comes to that delegation kind of, uh, jump, is it, is it just like a— do you think the belief is valid and the fear is valid, or is it just something you're not comfortable with for a different reason?

I think it's probably a combination of the two when you contextualize the situation, but I know fundamentally it stems down to trust. It's actually something I've been talking to my therapist a lot about, to be honest with you, because that, that ability to like let go of being so controlling, uh, has been an issue for me in like a lot of different aspects of everyday life because it's one of those things where it's like, if you want something done a certain way, do it yourself. But that doesn't go— that doesn't scale exponentially. And so I think in certain instances I would get stressed out about things an irrational amount or try to control things that I shouldn't. And then when you try to zoom out and think about calculating like the value of your time and you realize you're doing things you shouldn't be because it's not the highest Uh, impact of your time. Eventually you have to learn to trust and let go. And then part of that just goes back to your diligence process in terms of hiring, who you're delegating, how effective are you in communicating the thing that you're delegating so they actually do a good job of it. Because the other thing that I think I've learned the hard way is that someone is only gonna be as good at something as your ability to set them up for success. So in your mind, it might make sense, but if you cut corners in terms of communication and explaining, you're going to see that impact on the back end of it. And I don't know, I'm curious to get your perspective because I know you said you had a coach and I'm sure there's other ways that you've been able to get more effective at that, especially as a solo founder with a really large team. Now, how do you think about delegation and trust in general?

This can go a ton of different ways. I think, I think there's one-to-one delegation with your direct reports. So for myself, like we have an awesome VP of Ops, VP of Content, CRO, and I really treat them as like their own mini teams. They can make decisions, they can make budget decisions, hiring decisions without me in there. And I think that actually goes in the face of a lot of founders that I talk to that are still interviewing every single person and making the calls on every single person. This may be a mistake, I have no idea. This is my first company, like I may be fully wrong in this, but I go to the length of like for those direct reports, full empowerment. Not like I want the final sign-off, like you make your decisions, you make your budget decisions, and then you live with those decisions. And then if it didn't work out, like that's the learning for you. And hopefully I think that goes a long way in terms of building that trust. That goes both ways. It's not just like me trusting them. They need to trust me equally so that they can make the right decisions. And so I think with the direct reports, 100%. And then if for some reason someone's out sick or someone's traveling, and then I'm working with someone that's not a direct report but it's reporting to their kind of mini team inside, then it's a lot more like not micromanaging, but just ensure there's a lot more quality control checkpoints. Like, hey, can you record a Loom walking me through what you're doing? That's honestly been the biggest hack recently of any time I'm not sure a microprocess is working. Just have them record what they're doing in real time and then they send it over and I'm like, oh, I think this is like 80% of the way there. This is great. I would make these couple little tweaks and it takes them 5 minutes and it's immediate feedback.

Yeah, I don't know.

I'm—

it's something that I've just like, I'm slowly getting closer to just taking a leap of faith in certain areas because for whatever reason it's just been such a struggle for me. I think I also lack patience in some instances where I want something done perfect the first time. And so if someone does something and it's not how I want it, sometimes instead of like correcting them, I'll just go do it myself. But I know that that's like not healthy as a leader to try to like level yourself up. It becomes about empowering other people, getting other people excited and kind of like steering the ship. And so it's— I would say that's probably something that's been so top of mind for me over the last month, reflecting on like how I can, how I can continue to improve and like set everyone else up for success on the team.

Yeah, I hear you. I think on the health/personal side, I like how you define that you're training for something versus you're just working out. I think definitely right now I'm stuck in this, like I'm still working out 5 or 6 days a week. But it's more like maintenance mode. It's not I'm training for a big race or I'm training to get, I don't know, black belt or level up in jiu-jitsu or something. And I think that's— I don't know. I don't, I don't really know how to get out of it because I love running. I don't really want to go run like a half or full marathon. It's not the thing that excites me. Maybe it's like I need to go join, you know, I'm a big soccer fan. Maybe it's I need to go join a soccer team and then us competing in a competition or a league is like how you're training to compete for some outcome. But definitely right now, just like going to the gym or going to a workout class or going for a quick run without that clear end in mind or like competition in mind, it's just not as exciting anymore.

I think it's— at least for me, it's just finding your why, right? I think I ebb and flow with fitness because if I don't have something I'm training towards, sometimes that motivation can go out the window. And as it pertains to running right now, If I skip a run, which I haven't, it will mentally affect me because I know I'm falling behind on something that I'm actually supposed to be doing. But you're just going to the gym just to go, you know, you wake up, you're tired, you just skip a day because like there's no sort of internal accountability. But not necessarily is it healthy where you always have to feel like you need to be competing for something. I just think for me, that's been my mental framework because I was an athlete and because I always want to be operating at a high level that I feel the need to have something in that regard, but I don't know necessarily if it's right or wrong. It's just what it's been for me thus far.

Yeah, I hear you. I would like to do running, but I don't know if it's my thing.

I mean, I don't, I actually, I don't think running is my thing. I was talking to, uh, my coach the other day about this. Shout out Jonah Rosner. He's a beast. But, um, I actually am not even convinced that I like running. I, I just like the clarity I get from running with no headphones. It's like therapy for me. I don't even think I like the running. I like the mental state I can get to when I'm actually doing it. But I don't know, I— after this marathon, I'm not sure if I'll continue to run. I kind of want to actually put muscle back on. I feel like right now I'm just like—

you're looking skinny, man.

Yeah, I'm pretty skinny from running, but that's, that's the way it goes.

I like your note about— on the business side of things, I like your note about the Hormozy, like once you find the channel that really works. It could be for product, engineering, growth, BD, sales, whatever it is. Ignore everything else and not just double down, but like 10x that volume and see what it looks like. It could be product sprints, it could be meeting channel partners, whatever it is. And I know we've caught up about this, but the last month of Verbatim has just been a full sprint into, we found, finally found the channel that does really, really well for us for demand gen.

Which is referrals is my guess.

Channel partners. Yeah, referral. Yeah, but specific. I mean, there's, there's hundreds of types of referrals, right? You could get referrals from a founder, an operator, an investor, a customer, a client, a friend. There's hundreds of channels and each of those channels has different incentive structures. Some of them like we're just friends. And so you can— I can introduce you to whoever, right? That there's no incentive. There's just a relationship where some maybe an investor, it's, hey, I'm going to flag deals your way, right? Because that's what you— to do your job well, you need new deal flow that is really qualified that you actually want to look at. and you need people that are inside and know how people are performing. And then for co-marketing or tech partners, maybe it's just marketing. Maybe it's like you're doing blogs together, you're doing podcasts together, and you're leveraging each other's distribution. I won't share like specific channels, but once we found the specific one of those dozens that really works, like actually went 10x and just packed my calendar with as many calls as possible. And it's crazy how it works. It's so funny when you see or when you hear advice like, I'll listen to Hormozy podcasts or Patrick O'Shaughnessy podcast or whatever podcast you listen to and you hear these things, then you're like, oh yeah, that makes sense. And then you don't act on it. And I think I heard that advice from him like 8 months ago, 9 months ago. I feel like it's been reverberating in my brain for a while and I finally was like, all right, let's do it. And it works. It's crazy.

Yeah, I, I think one of the interesting things for me, and I'm curious what you use to like learn, I find that information overload ends up being counterproductive versus like if you listen to a podcast or read a book, like try to take one or two things away from it that you can actually action. And then I'm sure there's a ton of subconscious information that kind of just marinates in your brain that you'll use without even realizing it. But for me, it's like two things that stand out to me over the last month that I did that were helpful. The first one was reading the book called Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell. Uh, recommended. I mean, I'm reading— I was reading it because I'm trying to figure out how to delegate better, so it's been really helpful there.

Yeah. What'd you learn from it?

The main lesson which again, I think what's so interesting about a lot of these principles is you read it and you're like, oh, that makes so much sense. Like, people— a lot of very sophisticated, smart people have a superpower of simplifying complicated things in a way that you read and you're, you're able to digest it and implement it. And the thing that he has in his book that talks about the buyback principle, which is essentially like audit how you spend your time and the activities you're doing, figure out which ones you can delegate today to someone and figure out the ones that will require more learning or teaching to someone to delegate, but you should literally just go step by step through how you spend your time and your days and start to like make a log of it over time. Because sometimes you might not even know how you're spending your time until you are conscious about looking at how you spend it. And then once you can figure out what you delegate, it's like, get rid of that, get it off your plate, make sure it's working, and then just continue to do that over and over. And eventually you'll continue to delegate the things you shouldn't be doing. And with that, it helps you get closer to only spending your time doing the things that excite you and be really good at and have the highest impact. So that was the first thing was that book. And the other one was I listened to a podcast with Alex Hormozi and then Harley Finkelstein, who's the president of Shopify.

Legend.

And have you listened to that episode?

No.

You should. It's fantastic. But the one thing that Harley talks about that I really resonated with was in terms of incentive structures for employees, there's this misconception that the only way to, like, promote an employee is to put them into, like, a management role. Right? So you become really good at something and now we're going to pay you more. And now all of a sudden you're going to have people under you. But the thing that he talks about is that you need to have rewards and incentives for people who are really good at something who aren't necessarily meant to be managers. For example, a product marketer, a really good product marketer might just not want to manage other people, like give them incentive to be the best product marketer that they can and continue to level up instead of forcing someone into a management role when they shouldn't be. So it's understanding each individual within your organization. Are they someone who can grow into a management position or are they just someone who's a really good individual or independent contributor within that role? And the way that they talk about it is empowering people to feel like founders and entrepreneurs and contributors within the organization and not feeling like the path to growth, both financially and personally, has to be you need more responsibility to deal with other people. And I think that lesson was so important because when I start to reflect on our team, granted, we're, way smaller. There's certain people within the org and I'm like, I don't actually know if this person is going to be a great manager, but I think they can level up in different ways to feel like they're being rewarded for good work.

I like the idea around not only delegation but buying back your time. I think there's a component of almost ruthless cutting of what isn't in your focus at the time, and that could be a meeting or a call or someone that reached out. And I think when I look at my calendar, the mistake that I still make to this day is that when you and I were, I don't know, 2, 3 years ago and you were just starting to build Platter or the agency that became Platter, and even before Verbatim, when I was freelancing and thinking about what I wanted to build, I would reach out to all these people that were 3, 4 steps ahead of me and try to learn from them. And I think we both talked about this, that we're kind of, again, still very early days, but starting to have people reach out that are graduated from college, that are a couple of years behind us, that want our time and want to learn. And my gut reaction is always yes, because a lot of people gave me time when I didn't really deserve it, and I want to be able to give that back. And then I look at my calendar. I'm thinking about this right now, that I need to go delete these calls from my calendar because I know at least 3 or 4 right now of people that are, you know, maybe content marketers that are starting to freelance or starting versions of Verbatim that aren't competitive in any way. And they're all pinging me and saying, hey, like, I want to learn from you and I want— like, I really want to do it. And so I said yes. But when you look at it, it's not in that 10x channel that is actually helpful for my business. And I should be using that time to either work with my team and make sure that they're having fun, that they're doing their best work, or do my individual contributor work around channel partners. And if it's not in one of those, then it needs to go.

You know who actually gave me a really good framework for thinking about this was Nick Sharma. Yeah, because when I hired an EA for the first time, I asked him, like, can you explain to me how you empowered this person or set them up for success? And one of the things that he's done is when someone reaches out to meet with him, he basically categorizes that person into a different bucket. It's either like urgent, needs to be on the calendar in the next 2 days, uh, someone that I want to talk to but not high priority, so figure out a time in the next couple weeks that I can meet with them. And bucket 3 is like, can this be solved over email and it's not actually necessary to meet in person or virtually, whatever it is. And I think the way that I've taken his recommendation and implemented that into my schedule is picking certain days for certain themes. So like Mondays are internal meetings, Tuesdays are sales calls, whatever it might be. But I still think there's a way that you could pick like, you know, every third Thursday of the month, like you'll dedicate to helping those people who reached out to you looking for advice and you could time block 5, you know, 4 or 5 hours of a month where you're willing to do that. And it's on them to adjust to give you to take the time you're willing to give them. Because I still do believe that someone might say it's a bad use of your time because you're not 10x-ing your business. But I'll never lose sight of where I came from, and I don't ever want to be that guy who says no to someone because I'm too busy. I think there's just a way to go about it in a way that, uh, minimizes context switching, where you can still be productive and give that value that you want to someone else. But it's, it's understanding what's urgent and what's not, and not like context switching and feeling like a certain meeting is actually urgent when it, when it's not, because that's when you start to feel like your life is chaos when you're going from one thing to the other. So I think ultimately if you could just, uh, realign your schedule to like time block certain moments to have these networking calls, I think that's a way better way to think about it.

Agreed. What are your plans for Q2, personal and professional?

Uh, personal I mean, to be honest with you, I am— it's very hard for me to think about like doing fun things at the moment. Like, I don't know, I'm going on a couple trips, uh, my family just got a place in Florida, which is awesome. So like I plan on spending more time down there, honestly, in isolation to continue to focus.

Florida's great, man. Shout out. It's— there's a reason people go down there.

Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, shit, I really want to get to this, uh, bicoastal thing at some point. But I think as far as business, I feel like we're hitting an inflection point and it's like somewhere— I mean, look, we were profitable this month, but I still feel like we have more to give and it's like coming. And so I'm just trying to get it to a place where I'm like, we've cracked the code on what this actually looks like to scale. And so from a business perspective, it's making a couple more key hires for the team and it's getting our self-serve product off the ground. The ultimate goal is to get our true recurring revenue to be greater than what our monthly burn is like. That is the North Star for us right now. I think it's more realistic that that happens Q4, but I mean, it's anything to get closer to that right now. I'm doing an offsite with my co-founders in a couple of weeks, which I think will be really exciting for us. But ultimately, I'm trying to stay a little bit more focused on the short term. I think when I think about personal, I will say part of it is being able to learn how to delegate better, to give myself more headspace. Personally, like away from work where I'm not so consumed by it. And I think part of that is taking things off my plate that just shouldn't be on my plate. So that, that is probably the biggest focus for me is knowing that things are getting done where I'm not feeling like I have to be involved in every conversation.

I love that. What about you for the next— for Q2?

Well, and I guess the marathon is the other big thing. That's end of April.

That's end of April.

I'll add that.

And then it's in Oregon. Yeah, I'm going to be gone. I would love to see you struggling through a marathon, dude.

I think the last mile is on the Nike track. I think.

Really?

Yeah, dude, that's sick.

Shoe Dog was the first, like, founder bio I ever read. I feel like you and probably so many other people, I mean, thousands of other guys and gals. Yeah, I think Q2. I mean, the biggest thing is that I'm moving out end of March and I'll be going to like London or something. So, so the current plan is end of March moving out from my apartment in Greenpoint and then I'm going to do April in Costa Rica, in Santa Teresa with Karina. For a month, and then we're going to do Buenos Aires in May for a month. And then third month, TBD, maybe Portugal, maybe Porto.

I'm going to have to have a meeting with her about making sure you're back here for podcasts.

I'll be back. Don't worry.

We're not, we're not dropping a week.

We'll film a lot ahead of time. And then, then we'll be back for the summer, like June, July. We'll be here probably out on Long Island or something. And then if she gets into grad school, fingers crossed, then we'll go out to London in like August or something. We're— we woke up this morning because I was like, I got to go film this morning. She goes, so when we're in London, like, you're going to be coming back to film? And I was like, yeah, of course we're going to come back and do a bunch of filming days. She was like, okay, cool. That was the first thing we woke up because I was like, I got to go film. And her first thought was like, when we're in London, how's it going to happen?

I love that she's committed to the pod.

So committed. I mean, once you get a sign like this, you got to commit. But I think the biggest— I think the rationale of traveling. A, we're just excited to travel together. It's going to be a ton of fun. But also B, I am so happy in warm climates and new environments. They give me unbelievable amounts of energy. It's like when a standard day when I'm working from home in Brooklyn and maybe I got 12 back-to-back calls and I got to do work before and after, and then I got to work out and dinner with a friend. By the end of the day, I'm wiped. Where I could do that same day in, I don't know, somewhere in Costa Rica or somewhere in Europe, anywhere else, even in the States, anywhere else than my current kind of city neighborhood apartment. And I have at least double the amount of energy. I don't know if you feel that when you travel.

I do. But I think something that I struggle with is breaking routine. I'm such a routine person and I feel like I perform better when I'm comfortable in my environment. And I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing, but like I feel like with where I'm at right now, the thought of like going and packing my bags for a month and going to another country just gives me anxiety. But I think it's just a personal— it's a personal thing.

I think it's about the— I mean, the few days before and after, of course, are super stressful because you're like, where am I going to do laundry? Where's my gym? What's my morning routine? Where do I get coffee? So definitely it's like more stressful for a couple of days. Well, while you're also trying to run a business, But once that goes down and you do find, okay, this is where I get my coffee in the morning, my morning walk, this is where I work out. Once that shift happens and then you got a few weeks of that new routine, it's, it's like one of the joys of life. It's so cool. And I think one of my favorite parts of traveling is I've really started to get kind of tired of going to a city for 3 or 4 days and you're just full tourists, right? You just want to see the big things and you're not actually living like people there at all. It's like a completely different lifestyle. Like when I have a friends or cousins visit New York, what I show them is nothing like my life. But I love New York and I'm not actually showing them that. And so I think a big rationale behind this trip was that we actually want to live like that versus like we went to Costa Rica for my birthday. We were there for a week and we had a bunch of friends come, did all the touristy things, went on boats, hikes, that kind of stuff. And then the back end, Karina and I did 3 or 4 days, just a separate place and just doing work. Like we were just working all day. And that was actually the most fun part of the trip where we were just going about our day to day in a completely different place.

Yeah. I mean, the other crazy part is that you don't have your apartment, like you're giving that up to go. Yeah, do whatever. I love this place. I probably would travel and not get rid of this. But also my girlfriend has a job that requires her to be in person, so it's not really—

she's in person.

Yeah. I mean, she's a plastic surgery PA, right? Can't do that on Zoom.

For also for context, Ben and I are doing a double date. Are we doing next Friday? Yeah. Catan night. Oh yeah. We haven't played. I get very competitive in Catan.

That's actually a very— that's a fun fact on a personal level is ever since she came into my life, my commitment to board games and games in general has— I used to hate board games.

They're so fun. Are you kidding me, dude?

It's the competition. Like, we play chess and Catan. I sound like such a nerd, but it's like hilarious that like, those are actually things I'm really enjoying right now.

You know, it's unbelievably fun. Jenga. Jenga. If you have a group of people, really?

And that's a hot take.

We're— I trust me, man. I mean, Catan, other games, obviously great. But when you're, when you're just hanging out, like having drinks with a couple of friends or just chilling, maybe, maybe you're going to something later and you just want to hang out for an hour or two instead of just all kind of kicking it on the couch or in the kitchen, just chatting. You can have the same conversations, with a pile of wooden blocks in front of you. And it's not so like all-encompassing where like you have to focus on strategy and you have cards and other things are going on. And so you're out of it for like a few turns and then you get back in and get really competitive and then you're out of it again. It's fun, man.

I don't think I've played that game in like a decade.

I'm buying you Jenga. You're going to love it. You set it up right now. We'll have a ball for 5 minutes.

We should just leave one on the table during our podcast.

Rebranding Jenga. Okay. This is going in a different direction. Uh, is this 27?

Uh, I don't remember.

It was okay. Anyway, this will wrap episode 27. If you like these one-on-one therapy sessions with me and Ben, or if you have questions for us about Ben's therapy, about me considering going to therapy, let us know and we'll cover it.

Yeah, we've never actually— I don't think we've ever asked people to subscribe to the podcast or like or comment. I'm gonna give us a shameless plug right now because we're 20— what is it, 27 episodes in? And I'm excited for the next 100, but I would love for you guys to show us some love, leave us some comments, and we'll be back with episode 28 next week.

Hell yeah. Peace. Oh God, killer ending.