#029: Cael Schwartz - Life Lessons from Barstool’s $550 Million Acquisition

I like that there aren't really any rules. I think that's like entrepreneurship in general. And I think that's what makes a good entrepreneurship is realizing that there aren't really rules to like how any of us like make money. And I think that's what's like scared me about that, like corporate world that I like dipped my toes in for. But what I love about it is like every day some, someone figures out something new. It's like, oh shit, this works. That works.

That works.

It's like this constant A/B testing of like the Wild West. And it's just exciting.

Kael Schwartz runs growth and brand at Mugsy, a fast-growing Shopify brand that is redefining men's clothes for the modern guy. Before joining Mugsy, Kael was the head of consumer brand strategy at Barstool Sports and the head of product and growth at Birddogs. In this episode, we unpack how Kael prioritizes authenticity and content creation, building in public within the e-commerce community on Twitter, crazy life lessons learned from working at Barstool Sports, and the unpredictable nature of job security in the startup world. Welcome back to episode 29 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Cale Schwartz from Mugsy joining us. Thanks for coming today.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

I appreciate it.

Happy to be here.

So let's jump right into it. You're the content man. You just told us before we hit record that you don't actually have a real job title at Mugsy. You just kind of make magic happen.

I— yeah, so When I started working at Mugsy like 6 months ago, there wasn't— it's, it's one of those companies where it's in the size where there's so much shit to do that there wasn't really like a narrow path for like a hire. So we were just like, screw it, let's just be like this like rover generalist, which is perfect for me because that's kind of like my background. Uh, and yeah, I just like kind come in where I'm needed and do the stuff that needs to get done and then move on to the next thing.

I feel like those are the best hires though for companies where it's like, we don't have a specific job title, but we want A+ talent joining our team and we'll figure out a way for them to add value in an outsized, like, manner for the business.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, I always like to say about myself, like, I'm not, I'm not really like great at anything, but I'm like good enough at everything where it's like I don't know, when you're a company that's like scaling from 5— like, say you're at like $5 million, right? You're established. Like, you're maybe like 4 or 5 people. Like, someone like me, I think, is really useful because like, I'll just move really quick. I'll make a lot of mistakes, but I won't make the same mistake twice. And then we'll just be able to like, you know, move quickly. I think that's the most important thing.

Let's go back. You want to just give us a quick background on yourself and how you got to where you are today?

Yeah, so I, uh, I guess like my career started when I was in college in a way. So I was— I did an internship in college. I always thought I wanted to do like real estate, commercial real estate, uh, so I got an internship my sophomore year of college doing commercial real estate at a big real estate investment trust, and I did this summer there, and I fucking hated that. It was like the worst thing on planet Earth.

Did you hate it right away?

Yeah, right away. I got there and it's like a bunch of fat dudes, like with golf clubs.

That was it for him.

Yeah, I'm out. I'm gonna get on a treadmill.

They're like on the phone all day, like eating M&M's for lunch. It was just like, I'm like, what world is this? You guys are gonna like, it was horrible. Anyway, so I called my dad. I called my dad at work and I'm like, I can't do this. Like, this is so bad. Like, I think I'm gonna just like become like a writer or something. I don't even know. So The next year at college, I like had started doing a bunch of like theater and acting, so I was really into like, um, that world. So I was like, I'm gonna try and go to Hollywood, maybe I can get a job at, um, on a TV show, like production, directing, writing movies, whatever. So I, I ended up getting a job on a TV show as like a production intern, uh, and right before I was gonna move out to LA, like at the end of the school year for that junior year summer internship The guy who offered me the job just ghosted me. And like, so I had— I thought I had this like awesome internship lined up in LA. I had like just figured out I was going to live and now I had no job. So I panicked because it's like that junior summer internship's like important in college. People are always like, oh, this could be your job. So I pretty much texted everyone I knew and I knew my one buddy from high school, this guy Sam, was working for this weird startup shorts company in New York City called Bird Dogs. And I knew it was just him, the founder. I knew he had dropped out of college and I knew it was like going okay, but he was the one guy I knew who I could text and like, I was like, maybe he'll like take me on as an intern. So I text him like, yo, can like, I'll come work for you. I'll do anything. I'll work for free. Like, I just need a job. My mom's going to kill me. And he was like, I mean, we're not hiring interns, but like, I guess, yeah, come, like, we'll figure it out. So I got an internship at Bird Dogs. Um, at that point the company was 3 people working out of the CEO's one-bedroom apartment in the East Village. Literally none of us like knew how to really use a computer, like Shopify, like, you know, it was 2017. It was just early days of Birddogs. And from then on, I like fell in love with the, this world of like consumer brands, e-com, content. Facebook ads, like all that jazz. And yeah, I just never— I haven't left the world since.

So what do you like about it so much? Like, what are you obsessed with?

I like that there aren't really any rules. I think that's like entrepreneurship in general, and I think that's like what makes a good entrepreneurship is like realizing that there aren't really rules to like how any of us like make money. Um, and I think that's what's like scared me about that like corporate world that I like dipped my toes in for, you know, like a month. But what I love about it is like every day someone figures out something new. It's like, oh shit, this works. That works. That works. It's like this constant A/B testing of like, you know, the Wild West and that it's just exciting. I think 100%.

I think one commonality of hanging out with you guys and a lot of other like founder friends that we hang out with in New York or like e-commerce ecosystems is when you meet someone else and they have some breakthrough idea or like their company's growing like crazy, or you meet someone and they're doing like $10 million revenue in their second year. Your reaction or your reaction is, oh my God, that's amazing. I'm so excited for you. Let me learn from you. Yeah, let me try to go build something similar versus I have a lot of friends like from high school or college that see that and they just want to put it down and they want to go their different path or like a corporate path. Yeah, I think that initial reaction that you're talking about of like excitement when you see that stuff is a commonality between almost every like operator or founder that I know.

Yeah, totally, totally. I mean, That's why, like, it's just crazy to me that— and I've talked about this before— but that this world is still, like, not really talked about, like, from, like, an education standpoint. Like, in college, it's not like you can, like, learn— like, sure, you can go, like, study marketing or whatever, but, like, this world of— that we all exist in, like, it's still a little bit under a rock, which is just crazy because it's like, one, it's so fun. Two, like, You know, a lot of us are making more money than any of our friends. You know, I'm not there yet, but like, hopefully, right? Like, you know, any of my friends in banking, whatever, we're like, you know, we're all living the same lives, like outside of work. And like, I love work way more than they do. So it's like, why doesn't— I just don't get why more people don't do this, to be honest.

So one of the first things I wrote on my phone, I was doing research about this was, I don't know if you knew this, but I also did econ and theater.

No way, you did theater?

Yeah, I was a theater minor at Colgate.

Wait, can you tell us some stories?

So, well, yeah, well, I'll tell you some stories, but the one thing I'll add is the only reason that I couldn't double major was because at Colgate you needed to be in a school production, but because of hockey, I literally wasn't allowed. But I had every other credit, uh, that you would need to be a theater major.

That's the plot of High School Musical.

Yeah, basically.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to— I wanted to— did I sing? No, I can't sing, and I didn't sing, and I won't sing.

Off the pod, post-pod, I would say that's probably one of the top skills that if I could acquire, I wish I could.

But no, you don't hear that. You guys will get up and run.

I took voice lessons in college.

I love that. So I wanna, I wanna double-click into this though, and I can give you my perspective after you tell me yours. But how do you feel theater has like translated into just your everyday life with the things you're doing now that maybe don't appear to be super applicable to what you learned during that?

Yeah, it's a good question. I I don't know, we probably all— like, at least my dad was always like, you know, I'm really glad you're doing this, like, it's just gonna really help with your public speaking skills. And that's what everyone thinks about theater. It's like, if you're like, I don't know, lack of a better word, if you're like a straight white bro doing theater, like, everyone just thinks like, oh, he's just gonna use it like for business. But like, for me, theater was always way more than that. Like, I like love storytelling, I loved like acting, I loved like being super vulnerable in like different situations. And then like being in front of a camera when I started, you know, making Facebook ads at Bird Dogs, I was never just like, you know, awkward about it. Like I leaned so hard into it because I had just had that. I had already done it all in college of being like weird in front of people. Like I did improv, I was in plays. I had to like, you know, I did do crazy stuff in college that like you just would be like most guys would be so embarrassed to do. And I was embarrassed, but I had already gotten over that. So when it came to making Facebook ads, I was just like, all right, I have to grab this guy's like nuts in this video. Like, hell yeah, let's do it. I'll grab this, like, I'll grab it as hard as I can kind of thing. Um, and it just like, I don't know, I think it just helped with all of everything that, that has to do with entrepreneurship in terms of like the, the rules. It's just like the same thing with theater. Like, you can, as long as you're open to it and vulnerable about it, you can you can be and do whatever you want to do.

So for me, the only reason that I got into theater to start was like all the hockey guys would take theater classes together, and you learned very early on in basic acting, which was like the first class we took, if you were willing to be vulnerable and participate, you'd get a good grade. That we had kids who would show up who would sit in the back of the room like scared to talk. I'm like, why did you sign up for a basic acting class? Yeah, but it started as this fun thing with a bunch of my teammates where like we would all show up together And because we were with each other and we were obnoxious when we were in our, like, dorms and our houses, it was just like we translated that into a classroom with a couple other kids outside of our friends. And it ended up being like super fun. We did basic acting, improv, children's theater, contemporary dance, like all these different things. And it started kind of as a joke. And then I was having a lot of fun with it. And then I realized even post-school And through the interview process, when I thought I was gonna go into the corporate world, when someone would look at my resume, they'd be like, okay, uh, Division I hockey player, economics and theater. I don't understand, like the math isn't mathing here. More people ask me about theater than anything else on my resume or my background because I think it's the vulnerability piece where if you can put yourself out there, you can adapt to different situations. That's a skill that's attributable to anything you do in your life. And so I, when I saw that you also did theater, I was like, hell yeah, I want to talk about this. Cause not many people, I don't think that many people know that about me outside of like my close circle, but it's not even something that I hide. It's just not really something that comes up in conversation. Yeah.

Theater. I mean, if, if I didn't like, like, I don't know if I didn't, if I hadn't found this world, who knows? Like I love acting. I took an acting class in New York when I moved here. I like, I've done a little improv. I want to like do more of it. I love it. Like I really do. I don't think I could like live a life of an actor. Like that's not for me. But it's so fun. And in college, it was a huge part of me. Like, I played baseball for a year, and then when I stopped playing, I was like, kind of like— you're joking— like Troy Bolton. But it was true. Like, I didn't really know what to do with all this free time. And like, one of my buddies was a theater major and he was a basketball player. Really? Troy Bolton. But he, he, he just got me into it and I was so hooked. It was so fun.

I think it's also like the overlap there between which we can get into around like content, media and commerce. But the guys, the guys within the commerce space or the gals within the commerce space that I see having the most fun consistently is the Friday Beers guys.

Oh yeah.

And the sketch comedy that they do. One of Karina's really good friends started as a producer on that show and now she's in like a bunch of the clips with them. That is some of the funniest stuff. It's also up my alley. Yeah, but it's some of the funniest stuff I've ever seen. And then they're building like a commerce empire on the back end.

Yeah, no, I was— we just did with Mugsy. We just did like our first kind of like ad buy with Friday Beers guys. And I was in— I was in Venice Beach in November and I went to the office that they have. It's on Abbot Kinney, which is like the main drag there. And it's sick, dude. They just have such a fun operation going. Like those guys talk about having no rules in their sketches. Like they just— they just do crazy stuff and they're like so off the cuff, but they're so funny.

It's probably, I mean, the organic, you know, that I love the whole organic content thing. And with Platter, like, we lean into it probably more than a lot of software companies do. I think it's partially because of the distribution piece, but also partially that I genuinely enjoy it. Like, it's fun for me. It's not waking up and going to your corporate job Monday morning that you don't enjoy and you're like, fuck, why am I doing this? Or why do I have to do this? Like, I find even starting the podcast, right? Like, you have a camera on, but it's really just a conversation that we would probably have if the cameras weren't rolling. Um, but I think that the content thing in terms of acting translates into your willingness to be vulnerable. I saw, like, a viral TikTok that you were on. Uh... Oh, yeah. I did some digging and saw that you had some TikToks. You definitely did some digging.

I was doing research on TikTok of you specifically.

Well, one of my buddies here in New York is, like, a TikToker. He's, like, pretty big. He probably has, like, I don't know, half a million followers. He, he and I, like, when he was early on, I would always just try and get in his TikToks. We made a few ones that popped off. But, uh, yeah, stuff like that. It's just like fun. And like that, for example, like, you know, to, to just like come up in a conversation with someone like, oh yeah, like I did this viral TikTok. It's like 100% in your free time, like has nothing to do with work. But, you know, I don't know, I was single or Maybe I was single, I can't remember. But, uh, like, great way to have conversations with girls. Like, it just— like, every part of your life just elevates when you're being vulnerable. I think it just helps.

Authenticity is real, and it's one of those things when you do it for the first time and you maybe don't have an audience or you're not fully bought into it and you feel super uncomfortable. Like, posting that first video on any social platform when you have like a couple hundred followers, it's so uncomfortable. And then when you learn to realize that there's a lot of people watching it who actually envy it and admire it but are too scared to do it themselves, And that definitely plays a part. And you started the newsletter and you're doing a lot of different content and things. And I personally think a lot of it stems from the theater component, whether it's subconscious or not. Yeah. Which is why it's so interesting to me. But so you went from Bird Dogs and then you went to Barstool.

Yeah. So, uh, I was at Bird Dogs for about 5 years. I like, I loved it. I have like nothing.

That's a shift.

5 years is a long time. Yeah. Whoa.

Yeah. I mean, from like that first internship to the end, um, you know, I loved it. I have no bad things to say about them. But for me, it just got to a point where, like, the company got, like, big, like, and that was great. But it was the culture a little bit changed for me, and I didn't really feel like I was, like, improving personally.

What stages? Like when it hit X amount of people, when did you start to feel like 20 people?

Maybe 25 people was when I left. You know, I got there and it was like 4. So just different. And I couldn't figure out why. And even to this day, I can't really pinpoint why, you know, I kind of like felt like I had to move on, but I just got like really unhappy. Like, I just didn't enjoy going to work every day. Like, I felt kind of stuck. I didn't really feel like, you know, it was the right spot for me. So like, like for me, like mental health is like super important. And I was like, I need to make a change. Like, it was like, I need to either leave New York City or I need to get a new job. Because I just needed this big change. So I was like, well, before I leave New York, like, I had a girlfriend. I didn't want to leave her. So I was like, I'm going to try and find a new job. So that, like, thought opened up in my brain. And then I got, like, randomly, literally, like, the next day, like, serendipitously got a LinkedIn DM from a recruiter from Barstool, and they were hiring. And I had had a relationship with them since, like, I was like, you know, 19, because I was the one who, like, spurred the Bird Dogs-Barstool relationship. I'd always, like, listen to the podcast and stuff. And so they knew who I was and it just kind of like lined up. They were looking for someone to like basically build in-house consumer brands, um, tangent to Barstool, like creator-led brands, work with, work with a lot of the creators, you know, make content, you know, build products. And I had kind of that, like we said before, like that really generalist experience. So I could just like move the needle. Like it wasn't going to be perfect. It was probably going to be messy, but that was like perfect for Barstool. Um, and, you know, it was a bigger paycheck than I was getting before, and like, it just made sense. So I just like jumped. Um, and at that point, Barstool was just finishing up an acquisition, uh, from Penn Entertainment, which is a big publicly traded casino business. Uh, and so I got there, the acquisition finished, finished.

Did you join in the middle of that process?

Uh, so they bought it in two parts. So yeah, I, I joined in the middle of it. So like They— I joined and then they finished the second part, and then 8 months later the deal was just like not— Penn wasn't getting what they wanted to get out of it. Like, it's super public, but they, they eventually sold the company back to Dave Portnoy for $1.

Uh, one of the coolest transactions in the history of business.

Yeah, I mean, for him it was like insane. Like, I still like don't know exactly how that actually happened, but anyways, I was hired under that like Penn regime where like we were like, all right, we're investing in new, new like growth channels, we're investing in new revenue streams. We want to build this like, you know, Amazon of bro brands for Barstool. And like, that was me. That was like what I was going to do. And so when he bought the company back, there was no longer this like publicly traded bank account that we could just start to pull from, which we were doing. Company was losing money because they were investing so much in employees and growth channels and all that jazz. And so pretty much anyone who was hired under that like Penn regime was let go. So it was like you know, it was 50% of the company, 60% of the company got laid off in one day. Um, it was crazy, dude. I've never experienced anything like it.

One day, that was after Dave bought it back, and then they like—

two weeks later. Yeah, that's fucking— he bought it back, they laid off 60% of the workforce.

I have two Barstool fun facts. The first one is that I started Barstool Colgate.

Okay, that's fun.

Uh, I would see that.

I was part of this like group of kids who all ran the Viceroy's. Dude, they ran such a legit operation. I think a lot of people did not realize that. They're like, did you meet your deliverables? And I was like, I can't do this anymore. And then actually, there's one video that I'll laugh about now that we posted. Uh, it was my sophomore year of college and there was a girl— we had like a party at our, our house. I'm pretty sure Jake was there. Uh, and there was a like a freshman girl in the dorm and she was smoking a Juul and she was hitting the bottom of it. And like pretending to like blow smoke into the air. Uh, and someone took a video of it. We posted on the bar.

I may have seen this video, dude.

It kind of went viral. And then like the administration at Colgate like DM'd the account. Uh, and it was about to become— I was like, all right, I'm not— yeah, like I have way too much going on for this to be a thing. So I like was like, I quit. Um, and then the second fun fact, have you ever seen the video of the AFC Championship for the Chiefs and Bills? It was at a Kansas City tailgate. And a guy jumped off a bus and missed the— he missed the table.

I think so, yeah.

So I took that video.

We were at—

a bunch of my buddies and I went to Kansas City because I'm a diehard Bills fan, and this guy was about to jump off a curb onto a table, and I was like, dude, come on, like, no one wants that. He had a whole crowd like cheering him on. He was like literally jumping off a curb that was lower than this couch. I was like, get on the bus, like, you got to do it. And he got up there and jumped and missed, and I was like— told him to get on the bus. Yeah, it just sent shivers down my spine. He was so drunk, he got up and walked it off. I'm like, there's no way your tailbone isn't like broken into 4 pieces. Oh my God. Um, yeah, those are my two, my two Barstool fun facts.

Great Barstool fun facts.

But I feel like the experience you got, just in terms of— think about content, culture, and commerce meeting each other. Like, launching brands at Barstool is like, yeah, in the middle of all that.

It was sick. It was sick. And it was like, it was a really good learning experience for me, like, going from what was like a really small company, like, you know, as far as like headcount and organizational structure, to then seeing like what felt like an absolute behemoth of a company, you know, like 300, 400 people, like, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue. And like being a part of that, it was really cool. It was like hard. It was like navigating, like I had to navigate this like corporate structure, like, and at the same time I was also trying to save my job. So like I didn't want to get let go. Like I wanted to stay there. And so as these murmurs were happening, happening that people were going to get laid off, I was like, all right, how do I like make my— like, I felt like I was indispensable. Like, I thought I was doing a really good job. I was working my ass off. And I was like, how do I make it known to, like, Dave Portnoy that I need to be here? So for the last, like, month I was there, it was just like having conversations, like trying to get people to, like, vouch for me, like all this stuff. And it was just like, that part of it sucked. Like, it was just so brutal. Um, And by the end, like, you know, I had Big Cat on my side and vouched for me, and even that didn't, you know, that didn't even get me to stay. So it's just like, it ultimately, like, it sucked. Like, I'm so glad it happened. Like, it just has spurred so many amazing things, and it's like definitely, definitely the best thing for me. But in the moment, yeah, it was brutal.

What were your biggest takeaways looking back on that?

Uh, my biggest takeaway, like, first and foremost is like No matter what, like, you're kind of like never safe because I thought I was leaving this like volatile e-commerce brand that was bootstrapped to this like massive publicly owned company. Like I thought I had the most stable job ever. I was like, I'm going to get a bonus for the first time ever. Like I'd never gotten a bonus before. That sounds sick. Um, and then like, you know, a year later I got laid off and it was just like, wow, fuck, like anything can happen. You know what I mean? That was the biggest thing. And then the second thing was just like having two brands like that on my resume really opened doors for me. Like, leaving Bird Dogs and just having Bird Dogs, if I just like hit the open market, um, I don't think necessarily it would have carried the same weight as having Bird Dogs and Barstool on my resume. Um, and those— and I feel really lucky, like those two work together nicely from like what we were just talking about, like the content commerce perspective of like Bird Dogs is a really irreverent brand. Like they take a lot of risks. The content they make is like weird and crazy, and they've done a really good job of creating an audience of customers that are not only like buyers, but they're also kind of fans. Um, and Barstool's the same way. So yeah, it was definitely like, you know, I'm really glad I had that second job. I wouldn't say like it was the most productive year from like me learning tangible skills. But it was cool. It was definitely cool to be there.

And then I think you made a comment before we started about after that, you're like, I know I don't want to get another job. Like, I'm done with this. Yeah. Can you kind of talk through what that experience was?

Obviously the posting on LinkedIn too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, I've always like wanted— like, I have always wanted to be an entrepreneur ever since like I got to Bird Dogs. I was like, all right, I'm gonna do something like this myself one day. Like 100%. I still think that. Like Um, like, I want to build and build a bunch of companies, and like, I definitely want to do that. Um, but so I got laid off from Barstool, and I basically said like, all right, there's no better time than right now. Like, I got severance, so I had like a few months to work with in terms of—

a few months, let's go!

Yeah, I know, they're generous. Yeah, they were generous. Uh, and so like, there's no better time right now to just go full entrepreneur, so I post on LinkedIn and I was like, well, the first thing I know to like that I can do to start like paying myself money is just do freelance consulting. It was just like the easiest thing, right? I didn't need to have a product aside from myself. Like I could build a website, start your own like S corp, LLC, whatever. It's just super, super easy to do. Barrier of entry is crazy low. Um, so I started doing that. I post on LinkedIn and I wrote this kind of like self-detrimental shitpost humor-based thing about me getting laid off from Barstool, uh, and, you know, and what happened and how I'm now open to, you know, anything basically.

Like, vulnerability, baby.

Yeah, I was like, I'm open to, you know, fractional positions, consulting, if you want to play golf, if you want to buy me a beer, like, whatever, I'm down. Like, let me know. I'm— I'm free as a bird. And it just like went Yeah, it went viral. Like, I think like, you know, half a million people saw it. Wow. Um, you know, thousands, a thousand likes, shit ton of comments. Uh, and then I— so what I did was like, I was like, holy shit, I have traction here. So I, I opened it up to a Calendly, and everyone knew I was an unemployed person, right? So that really cleaned up the funnel for the people who were actually like signing up to talk to me, because they only signed up to talk to me if they like had, had use for me in some way. Like, I— they couldn't sell me anything because I had nothing to offer. And I was— it was just me. And it— I had, you know, 2 full weeks straight of like back to back to back to back. So I had the craziest calendar ever. I posted on LinkedIn, um, and I talked to hundreds of brands.

Um, and you weren't trying to hawk your services either?

Not really. I was more just like seeing what seemed cool to me and like if I fit in well. And also, could they afford to pay me? Because I wanted to make money. And like You know, you'd be surprised how many people were like, yeah, like, I can't afford you right to pay you right now, but like, if you want to work for free, you know, which sometimes, you know, in some cases I did do that. Like, I was like, yeah, I'll work for your sweat equity. Hell yeah, like, I'm down. Um, and so I built like a roster of like brands, and at that point I virtually just had an agency. Um, and, and then in the same time, like, that's spawned my newsletter. Um, which is called Trust Fund, which basically the idea was I started it and I was like, I'm just gonna like be super transparent about this, like navigating this world between entrepreneurship and unemployment. And like, I wanna be as open as humanly possible. Um, because I saw that a lot of people were like resonating with the same thing.

Um, that I didn't realize that was like the brainchild of your newsletter.

Yeah.

It was like, you can plug it as much as you want. I think, I think it's awesome. I, I love that story.

Yeah. It was just like, I don't like, It was— the joke was like, I don't have a trust fund. Like, I don't. I would love one. I don't, unless my mom's gonna surprise me with one one day. Like, uh, so this idea of like, you know, trust— having trust, um, and having fun are like two things that like I think are super valuable. And you know, it's catchy name, like it just worked out well. Uh, and yeah, that was like the start of it where I was like, oh fuck. So the first newsletter was just me telling that story I exactly told you guys, was just like you know, being— I just try to be like transparent, as open as possible.

But yeah, one question about Barstool specifically.

Yeah.

For— I think most people listening or watching this, hopefully watching this, are in e-com, kind of like in and around the space, understand like the commerce empire that is behind Barstool. But for our parents who are hopefully watching this or other people that aren't in the space and only see Barstool name and they're like, oh, that's silly. That's like a bunch of guys just talking on podcasts. Can you give like the 1-minute version of just how big of a business it is?

The commerce business? Yeah. Yeah, it's huge. So, uh, it's a well-oiled machine. Like, it's pro— it's, it's a 9-figure commerce business. Uh, they sell everything from t-shirts to golf bags to suitcases to coffee to, uh, alcohol to everything. So it's It's massive. Um, they basically, they basically, they don't own their own warehouse, but they pretty much like have this like unique partnership with the 3PL. You know, a majority of their sales are like on virality stuff, so like capturing in-the-moment things. So like SIGS, like that Bill story for example, like, you know, if they made a graphic of a guy breaking a table, they would put it on t-shirt, it would go live within 10 minutes, and orders would be shipping within an hour because it's all print on demand. So They own the blank inventory in the 3PL. They're printing, they're, they're embroidering things like on the spot. And it's just like this like super crazy machine of like, okay, we have graphic designers, we have people in the warehouse, we have, you know, the marketing arm that is all the creators. Like, it's just insane. And to not really have a paid, like to not really be selling shit on Facebook, like either like via paid ads, like it's all organic reach. is just crazy. And the amount of visitors they get to their store from literally, you know, strictly organic is just like— it's something I've never seen before.

Dude, their ability to just crowdsource cultural moments, to your point, and just flip a switch within minutes is so fascinating to me, because that business can just live on indefinitely. Like, things will always happen and funny moments will happen where there's enough people out there who wanna buy a shirt or buy something a memento that it like speaks to one of these concepts. And so it's almost like you sit down to think about planning in that business, like, well, there's no planning. It's watch the internet and watch TV and see what's funny and someone just let me know and we'll make something out of it.

Yeah, it's that— it's a really cool business in that sense. It also makes it a really difficult business to manage because of like, like forecast— you can't forecast shit. Like, you know, like every meeting we'd like— I didn't spend a ton of time on like the viral side of things, but you know, you'd be in a meeting and someone would be like, how can we recreate like the Joe Burrow cool moment? Like, how can we recreate this? It's like, well, you can't. You kind of have to wait for it to happen. But, um, you know, their whole business, the, the perspective on that business, they really wanted to create hero products for their store when it came to clothing. And, you know, for Barstool, that was really hard. They didn't really have that. It was really just on viral stuff. So in that sense, it's really cool But when you can't anticipate demand like that, like, your cogs aren't as good because, you know, you're— you have to move quickly. You don't have the luxury of some of the lead times. You're printing in the US, stuff like that. So it is a really cool business. Um, you know, it's just— it's hard to manage. It's hard to forecast.

Have you seen, uh, you— have you seen Succession?

Yeah.

Are you Succession?

You know that I've seen very few TV shows and movies. I just can't.

If you have to watch something, you should Yeah.

Yeah, it's sick.

So, right after the last season finished, um, you know the running joke between— to the cousin Greg and Tom, the disgusting brothers?

Yeah.

So Friday Beers did a print-on-demand version.

Yeah.

That is my favorite shirt.

Oh, you have it?

My girlfriend got it for me.

Nice.

And it's the funniest thing. You wear it out; everyone recognizes it. And it's like this beautiful moment in time, where now if I got it, it's like, "OK, that last filmed like a year or two ago." Yeah. But at the time, Anyone that is outside recognizes it and like connects with that cultural moment, which I think is really cool.

Yeah.

One question I had for you was around— you mentioned when you got there, you were— it was just exciting and you were having a lot of fun. And I think something that we've talked about a lot is, yes, business is like serious and stressful at times, and it should be because it's hard work. But you do need to maintain like an element of fun in it. And so I'm curious what you're doing now, both on the content side with the newsletter and obviously at Mugsy. How have you, like, taken some of those learnings around making sure you're having fun into building Mugsy now?

Yeah, uh, that's a good question. I think just like the way that I've set myself up from like a day-to-day perspective is really, um, ever-changing. Like, my days never really look the same, um, which is great for someone like me. Um, because I'm not a sit still and rinse repeat the same stuff every day type of guy. So if I get to like come down here and do your guys' podcast and then like grab a coffee with someone, then go to a coworking space, then maybe pop back to my apartment and do some work there and then like go work out, like that to me is like, that's what my day I think needs to look like for me to be like super productive. And like, I love networking. I love social media. I think it's super powerful and, uh, a great way to like build, you know, your personal brand and your whatever brand you're working on. Um, but yeah, for me it's just like making sure that I'm into the stuff that I'm doing, you know. Obviously some days suck. Like, like for example, like we're, we're working—

we're—

Mugsy is now a customer of Platter with Ben and his team, and we're like, hell yeah, yeah, which is sick. Platter rocks.

Shout out Platter.

Uh, I didn't make him say that either. No, he's unsolicited.

Uh, I thought we maybe were gonna talk about it bit. But, uh, anyways, there's stuff that we have to do on our side for— to prepare for like the transition over to Platter in terms of like building metafields and Shopify and like making sure everything's tagged correctly. And like, you know, I have one guy on my team who's like a web merchandiser, but it's just me and him. And like, you know, there'll be like yesterday, there's like fucking 3 hours where I'm just like in the weeds of Shopify doing stuff, and it's just like, oh, that sucks. But at the end of the day, like, I know I'm working towards a the goal of like building this awesome website, so it's worth it. So I think just like taking the bad with the good and, and making sure that like my day is always different is like how I kind of keep it interesting.

I do, I do want to talk about it for a minute though, because I wasn't really involved in the, the process of, of us working together. Shout out Johnny Laz though, because he was the one who—

if you're listening, you guys got to get Laz on the pod.

He, uh, he would be hilarious actually. Uh, he was the one who made the connection a long time ago, and then nothing materialized, and then you guys came back to us, was like, hey, can we talk? We we need help.

Yeah.

Can you maybe speak a little bit to the pain points or what you guys were feeling that even prompted you to want to reach out again?

Yeah, I mean, we just had never really invested in our website, which is just like crazy because like when you're an e-commerce brand, like your website is literally the most important thing you have because that's where you're sending everyone. And Mugsy, we've always been a team of like guys who like to have fun and love this world and like, we love being funny and whatever. And we make really, really good products. And I think our strong suit is like marketing and our products and our strong suit is not like, no one is technical whatsoever. So we needed a lot of help, like for sure. And I was kind of like, when I came on, I took the responsibility of like, all right, I'm going to be in charge of the website and like, I'll make it better. Didn't really know how I was going to do it, but I was just going to figure it out. Um, it's a classic, like, I just say yes and I'll figure it out later. But, um, yeah, as we were going through, like, how we were like, are we gonna hire a full-time dev? Which we really just like didn't want to do, and it was expensive and we didn't really think we needed it. And we also, like, a full-time dev really wouldn't like fit in the vibe of the business either. Um, and then like maybe working with an agency who's just like your classic Shopify developer, maybe one or two people, um, could have been another option. And then we like learned about Platter and talked to Michael and Kieran, and it was like, dude, it's like a perfect fit because like, because we're so non-technical, like, and we're so focused on growth and pro— and like the physical product of like that we're selling, um, we just want to spend as little time as possible like worrying and thinking about that stuff. Um, we want the website to just work. We want things to be easy, drag and drop, like on-off, like we have monkey brains. That's like what we need. And so you guys just like, the, the service is sweet. Every day I'm more impressed with it. But yeah, just easy to use. It's not, it's not overly complicated. We don't need to pay $250,000 a year to a dev on our staff, which is just like ridiculous. Like we just don't have the money to do that either. Like, so it's great. It's a perfect solution for, you know, us. And we're not small, like we're, you know, mid-7 mid-7, 8-figure e-com brand.

Sorry, I'm just like, it's the, I mean, I love hearing this, uh, because I think one, from what I'm hearing, it's like the peace of mind piece is really valuable where you can trust that someone is supporting the thing you don't want to do. And I always say, like, one of my favorite pieces of advice that I ever got was make your A's, A pluses, and find someone else to do your C's for you. Um, and then as it relates on a more specific level to the website, It's like, you guys are brand builders, we're e-com nerds. Go be brand builders and let us be the e-com nerd that is like helping you and telling you what you should be doing, where you don't have to actually think about it.

Yeah, yeah, 1000%. I couldn't agree more. Like, we just— everyone's got a different skill set. I think when it comes to building brands, like, the most important skill set is the ability to build a voice, build a customer base, build really good products. And then like the other stuff is just like get that out of the way.

There's also millions of brands out there, right? Like, not every brand is a good fit for us, and not every, like, partner from a software side is a good fit for you. But I think it's— if you just get the word out there and increase your surface area of exposure, enough people will— you'll strike a chord and they'll resonate with what you're doing. And it either works or it doesn't.

Yeah, 100%.

When it comes to evaluating other e-com tools kind of in our ecosystems, I'm curious, the first thing you mentioned was like I want to work with good people, both the team at Mugsy, both your team. And I feel like that's such a huge part of like a client-vendor relationship. I'm sure you get pitched tools all the time. So when you're evaluating them, how much is it? I'm sure it's just like technical side. It just needs to work. But I'm sure there's a human side of it too. Like, I want to work with good people that I respect.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I think I hadn't put together that Ben was like— I'd followed Ben on Twitter already before I honestly even knew what Potter was. Um, and like, I just, I just like this guy.

What, when you saw his Twitter?

Yeah, well, I don't know, you just like the content. Yeah, you just like, you see this, just putting out great stuff. You see this, you see this fake shit on the wall, I was like, damn, that guy's legit.

You're like, I love it.

Yeah, it's the grass wall.

Good to know, the grass wall. No, it's memorable. Uh, but I think for us it's really need-based. Like, I hate to say that's the first thing, but it's true. It's just like, no, it is. If someone's pitching me something and like I don't think I need it, like it's just like, I'm not— there's just not enough hours in the day. Like, unless you're getting offered like a $250 Amazon gift card, which does happen, uh, and like I need to buy like my girlfriend some new headphones, um, I'll take that call. But otherwise, like, I'm not really taking calls. Um, but for Platter, it was perfect because we were like, okay, we need a new website. How the hell are we gonna do that? And Um, yeah, we just, we knew you guys, or Adam and thank God for JLaz, like, knew you guys existed and just worked out well. It's kind of like timing is everything. I think that's like the world in general. E-com too is the same way. It's like how the funnel works is like you just want to continue to own real estate in people's brains, and then when they're ready to buy, they'll buy. It's not like you're not convincing someone to buy on the spot.

Can't force them.

No, you just never— it doesn't work that way. Like, you're just Like, be, be memorable, be memorable, be memorable. And then when like I'm ready to buy socks, like I'll buy your socks because I, you know, Bombas or like whatever, Hanes, whatever, you know.

I think my, my director of growth Elliot made a comment to me. I don't know the exact statistic, but it was something along the lines of like the average number of touch points consciously and subconsciously is like 64.

Yeah.

For people to like see you or hear about you because to your point, it's like stay top of mind. So when that thing is an issue, it's like, wait, I remember seeing these guys everywhere. Let me go talk to them. But I think for people listening who are trying to build a company also, if you just understand the concept of building something that's a nice-to-have versus a need-to-have in the market, that's a pretty easy way to know if you're onto something. Because to your point, you probably get pitched things where you're like, it would be cool if I had unlimited time in my day, but this isn't really striking a chord on such a deep level. So there's either like, there's a problem you have that you're actively looking for a solution. Or I would say the other side of it is you don't know what you don't know. So there are instances where businesses exist where they point out a problem to you where you're like, oh fuck, I didn't realize, like, if I fix this, it's going to have a material impact on me. And so that's been really helpful for us. I don't know about you, but when we build Platter, it's like continuing to build product in a direction where people are telling us it's something they need, not something we think they want.

Yeah, I think the one, the one thing that you're touching on here a bit is around urgency to buy. In that when you're selling software or probably not consumer products, but when you're selling software or agency services or vendor services, a, yeah, you need to be top of mind when people want to buy. But at the same time, I feel like there's really two camps on either side of the spectrum of people coming in just wanting to learn more down the line and there's no time urgency or it's like, I'm ready to go right now. I've seen you guys at 30 different touchpoints, 40, 65 different touchpoints. Let's go, I've already done my homework. And I feel that verbatim all the time. People either come in and are like, hey, we're going to do this in the next year, but we like what you're doing. Or it's no, we've already like, we've done our diligence. I kind of just want to talk to you real quick. Like, we're ready to go. It really is in one of those camps. Like, it's hard to— I think that's what people don't talk about in like a classic B2B sales funnel for software. It's hard to run people through if the timing's not right, if they're not in that first camp of like, I'm ready to go. Like, it's hard to run a sales process and it's hard to move people down a funnel, especially with—

I mean, specifically with what we're selling, right? Like, our core product is basically migrating and overhauling your entire website. Like, yeah, we, we've built a ton of efficiencies into it where like it's relatively cheaper, you have more functionality and it's easy to use. But if I talk— if I get in, I've gotten introduced to brands. I got introduced to one last week from a friend who just like, was like, oh, good people, you guys should meet. And they're like, oh, we're actually launching our new website Tuesday. I'm like, that's awesome. Like, yeah, happy to support and be a resource, but I'm not going to sit here and pitch you on why you should use Platter. You're literally about to launch a new website.

Yeah.

So timing, timing is such a huge piece of it, but I think that's another reason we're so bullish on organic content because you want to be top of mind for people for if and when the problem you're solving becomes top of mind for them. You're the first person that comes up in their mind.

100%. Yeah. And I want to talk about the content you're doing. Cause I'm curious. You mentioned you started the newsletter.

Yep.

Once you, once you're doing like a little consulting work, working with a few brands, why are you still doing it to this day? Is it just fun? Do you get to meet people?

Yeah, so the newsletter—

make money.

Yeah, uh, the newsletter is fun, and the newsletter is like almost like good for my mental health. Like, yeah, uh, I mean, not almost, it is good for my mental health. Um, I like going back to all the theater stuff, like I like Being creative, like that's something that's really important to me. And it's like part of my brain I like want to always use. And I think when you're, you know, if I could like make videos all day long for Mugsy, like that'd be sweet. And I would do that. The problem is like, you know, I'm pretty much managing like all of our growth stuff. So like, I'm, you know, there's, there's a website to be built. There's like, you know, designing some like gift with purchase products. We're managing ad spend budgets. Like it's, it's not all creative. Right. So like. Any outlet I can give myself to do that, I'll continue to do. And I like the message behind it. I think it's great. I give a little, like, you know how the newsletter structure is like, I write, you know, 400 words on just like, it's like a brain dump of just like what's going on in day to day of my life. Like, I'll talk about sports, I'll talk about like relationships, I'll talk about like anxiety, like whatever. Right. And then, and then I'll give you know, another 400 words on like something a little bit more focused in regards to like e-com or D2C or brand building and stuff like that, that, you know, is I'm working on or I saw successful this week or whatever. So it's kind of a hybrid of like lifestyle and business in the newsletter. Um, and I kind of, I always want it to be like that. I think that's why the people who read it are so like kind of engaged and like, they like feel like they know me and it's just like nice because it's, I think it's a little just different than, you know, what's typically out there with like an e-com or D2C newsletter, which is just like, you know, all respect to all those guys, but just like, I like mine to be a little more casual and personal, personal, and also like have spelling mistakes and like, I don't care. And like, I love that. Yeah.

So what's your process? What's your creative process in terms of, are you just sitting down at once and hammering it out? Are you like putting notes in your phone throughout the week knowing it's going to go in the next edition? Like, what does that look like?

Yeah, I'm kind of always thinking about it now. Like, I feel like I have a good process, but really I like start writing on Sunday. It comes out on Monday at 10:30. So that's like when the newsletter comes out. So Sunday afternoon, night, depending on like what I'm doing that day and like how hungover I am, I'll, I'll like put the bones together. And then Monday morning I wake up like with a coffee. I actually don't drink coffee anymore, but with a tea. And like clean it up and get it ready to rock. So yeah, that's kind of the process. But I'm trying to do more like switch things up. Like I'll— I've done some like transcribed interviews in the newsletter, like almost podcast format. So like this week I'm interviewing someone tomorrow and it'll be more like of an interview format. I've done a few of those, so I like doing that too.

Do you think that's your main creative outlet right now, writing?

Yeah, right now it is. Um, I've like started and not finished like movie scripts, but novels, like all that stuff. And I like go through ebbs and flows of like whether taking acting class, like I really want to start like doing improv again in New York, but right now it's writing.

Um, I'm always curious because a lot of people that start newsletters, the best ones in my opinion are the ones that are pulling from your personal life. It could be lifestyle, it could be mental health, whatever it is, and then have a bit of that work as well. The thing I'm always worried about is like getting back into content. I love writing to death, but now so much of my day and so much of my passion is like building companies and running for Betam and on the content front. And I really don't want to cannibalize it. And I want to have my creative outlet completely separate, completely different world than what I'm doing. But at the same time, I know if I do it about what I'm doing, I'm going to be excited about it. I want to write it and it will help my business. But at the same time, I'm like, ah, I feel like I should do a separate one, like acting for you.

What would be, what would be your advice to people listening who've maybe wanted to start a newsletter? Cuz to be honest, like I've thought about it. Yeah. I've thought about it.

You're crushing it.

In the same way.

What? Why don't you do it?

I, I, there's no reason that I haven't, but like, that's, I wanna actually talk to you about this cuz part of it was literally just a digital journal for me. And if there's anyone who wants to like follow along, like great. But if you do it and stick with it, it's probably cuz you're doing it for you. And then. People listening or reading, it's a byproduct of what you're doing for yourself. But I'm curious what your advice would be even for me as like a really busy founder who's thought about it.

Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. Like, I started it for me 100%. Like, I didn't really— I thought people were going to read it. Like, I would— like, I had momentum on LinkedIn and like, you know, people were starting to like, like follow along a little bit. So I really started it for me though. That was like the main thing. And if I could, you know, give any advice or, you know, tell a story that resonated with someone, like, great, that's a bonus. And that's like exactly what started happening. Like, I would write a newsletter that hit on a specific thing and like, you know, you get people emailing you back being like, dude, like, thank you. Like, that was so helpful. Or like, I was feeling the same way. Or like, you know, just like that, like validation is so nice to hear that. There's a stranger in Illinois reading your newsletter who you've never met before, who enjoys following along on your journey is just really badass. And so that's what kept me going to do it because I felt like I was now talking to not a ton of people, but a few people. But I don't know, dude. Just do it for yourself. I think like you're not going to stick with it unless you love it. Like if you start a newsletter and you write 10 of them and you're like, oh, this just kind of feels like a chore, like stop doing it. There's no— no one's making you do it. But if you start it and you're like, damn, I like this, or, you know, I'm finding myself improving XYZ, then keep doing it. Like it's probably the same with the podcast where it's like, who cares if fucking no one watches this? Like if you guys like sitting here and like you have fun doing it, like It's awesome.

I've never looked at the analytics on our podcast before. Yeah, dude. No, I actually— no, I'm not kidding. I couldn't tell you. We might have like 5 consistent listeners who show up every week, and shout out to those 5 people.

Um, I, uh, I had a radio show in college, me and some of my buddies, called Second Stringers.

It's like 2 AM radio show.

It was, uh, I think we were like 4:30 on Thursdays.

Prime time, baby.

Yeah, we had zero My dad, I think, chimed in. And then we had this one local cab driver named Dave who would call in every day. And I think that was the only two people who listened to us do the radio. But dude, like, there's nothing more fun than like having a microphone in front of your face and like, you know, I don't know, you just— it's great.

I joke with him all the time about this. The reason that we invested in building a studio is because I could actually see myself doing hundreds of episodes.

Yeah.

And whatever happens after that is great. But like, I like meeting interesting people. It's a cool platform to sit down and learn about people.

Yeah. Um, I mean, it's same thing. Like, you, by having this infrastructure, you open up the gateway to having really interesting people come. Because like, like, even on my newsletter, like, uh, you can interview like badass— if you offer someone an interview, like, people love to be interviewed and like sit in front of my camera, block out 2 hours.

They love talking about themselves. They love talking about—

they're not busy at all.

No.

Yeah, dude, I'll cancel meetings to 4 cameras? Hell yeah. Like, uh, like, I— like, you like that stuff, especially if you're an entrepreneur or founder. Like, in this world, like, you have to have an ego, and like, it's cool, and like, you get better at it every time you do it and all that stuff. Like, so yeah, I love it. Like, I'm interviewing, um, Alex Lieberman from Morning Brew tomorrow for my newsletter, and like, he's— he's a huge following, right? Like, he's big. And I've never met him before and I'm excited to talk to him. But like, I just shot in the dark, Twitter DM, like, you want to come on my newsletter? Just fine. He was like, hell yeah. So stuff like that, it's just like it really opens up the doors to just like meeting new people.

I want to do a 2-minute brainstorm if I were to hypothetically start a newsletter, because you looked at me with 10 heads like, why haven't you started?

We started—

it would be great.

We started one with Johnny Laws. I don't know if you've seen his collab newsletter. Well, like, I just helped him like get it. Johnny doesn't know how to like open a Word document. So like, we had to— I know that we had to like we had to push him along. But yeah, he started one. It's called, uh, uh, Five for Writing. Like Five for Fighting, Five for Writing. He's a hockey guy. So, uh, yeah, so Johnny's been writing a newsletter. It's kick-ass.

Um, I want to do a 2-minute brainstorm. I want you to speak first on what you should talk about. If you envision me doing a newsletter, like, what would that look like in your eyes? Um, because I was, I was perplexed by the way you looked at me in disbelief that I don't have one.

Well, I just think, like, even from the first time I met you when, like, via LinkedIn, we told the story before, but up until building this stuff now, I think there's like very rare traits that you have, not just gassing you up, but like, I think it's very rare that you like move fast with conviction on things. And I think it's very rare that people— a lot of people talk about lifestyle design. Very few people actually implement it. Even what you're talking about, like moving to the Upper West. I'm sure there's a lot, like a lot of benefits about that and thinking through it. I think a lot of people talk about lifestyle design and talk about the impact of your environment and setting things up like this and how this improves serendipity. You've met so many people, even if you're not doing the show, just having other podcasts come in and use this space. And I think those two things specifically, like you have so much random serendipity coming into your life living here that I know you've worked really hard at intentionally building. Um, anyway, I think those two would be top of mind for me just 'cause like I learn from you all the time about that.

Yeah, dude, I mean, you have a fucking ice bath and sauna outside. Like, that's so cool. Like, I don't know, you could have like a sauna thoughts or something, like where you'd like write about the thoughts you have in a sauna.

Don't do that, that's a terrible idea.

No bad ideas. No, you gotta, you gotta get the bad ideas out of the way though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, but I'm just saying like this place is so cool. Like, you have this like, I don't know, it feels not— aside from your like leaks, like it, it feels like a little bit of like a fun little like fantasy factory vibe. Vibe, like where it's like I have a cold bath, have a sauna, I have a podcast studio, like I've got like cool art and shit on the wall. Like, I don't know, there's, there's something I feel like about this space that's like super creative. And it seems like you really value your space, which is cool because like, so it's so important. Like, um, I like, I'm just learning that because I'm finally in an apartment that isn't like a dump. Like my first time in my life, like I just moved in with my girlfriend, we have like a nice apartment. Um, And like, it's incredible, dude. I'm so much happier. Like, it's insane.

So, uh, yeah, you guys might give me the push I need. Maybe, maybe I'll write, maybe I'll write one newsletter and I'm just gonna send it to the two of you.

Yeah, just to just time-bound it as an experiment. Be like, hey, I'm gonna do 10 newsletters in 2 months or whatever.

And no, but I, I also like the idea of time-bounding how long you spend on the newsletter. So it's like I turn on a timer and I just write for 60 minutes. And when 60 minutes is up, like I'll finish the sentence and like, that was my 1-hour dialogue with myself.

Yeah.

60-minute drop.

Yeah.

Because I don't, I, I, I wouldn't want it to be something where you feel like you have to spend 8 hours on it. And it's like, I, the thing you said that I love so much is how you have typos in your newsletter.

Yeah.

Like that to me speaks volumes to like your character and your willingness to like do something for you and make you happy because. You don't want to correct it for you, so why are you going to correct it for other people? Because the value of it is staying true to yourself. But I feel like if I were to do one, it would be some format of like a digital diary for myself of like, here are the things I'm thinking about, here are the things that are top of mind in my life today. And then it just kind of slowly evolves wherever my life goes, my newsletter goes. And it's just like a digital diary, and people will gravitate either because they're interested in me or the things that I'm doing. And then ultimately you find that intersection, which is kind of what you did, where like now you're selling sponsorships in the e-com world, but I'm sure the first day you started it, you weren't like, I'm going to build a newsletter to get e-commerce companies to sponsor. It was like, I'm going to start this because I want to write and be creative, and then whatever happens, happens.

Yeah, yeah. You can't— like, you can't start it to make money. Like, that's just never how it— when it comes to content, it never, like, works. Or it doesn't never work, but it's just like, it's inauthentic. But like, I mean, dude, like, this— when you guys start monetizing this, which I'm sure you guys will, like having a podcast and a newsletter to add on to it. Like, you're— you got to sell media packages, right? Like, you could sell like X amount of Twitter posts, X amount of LinkedIn posts, this many clips. Like, the pot— like how media packages worked when I was at Barstool too. It's like you're not just selling a podcast read, you're selling a podcast read, swipe up, social posts, newsletter features. Like, you want the whole— you want partnerships to be holistic, especially when you're working with, say, like a SaaS business, like who wants to sell to your audience. And the more you can offer, the better. So like my advice would be just like the newsletter probably should be in some way an extension of this because when you go to sell a media package or media deal to somebody like they want, the more the merrier, right? The more impressions they can get, the more eyeballs they can get. The— you got to hit people 64 times. Like that's another way to do it. So also emails, everything like do collecting emails is God, it's the most important thing. People don't realize, like, gotta collect emails. Like, I, I'm, I'm a proponent, like, every single one of us should have our own personal CRM of, like, anyone you've ever talked to. Like, if there's a way, if I could just, like, shameless plug to Clay.

That's what, that's literally what it does. It tracks every interaction you have with every person across all your channels and aggregates it.

That rocks.

What do you keep yours on?

Google Sheets, dude. Zach will maybe listen to this because this episode comes out before the week before yours.

Yeah. Oh yeah, send. Yeah, I'll, I'll do it.

I mean, I'll show you.

Those are also like not— I have a newsletter now, so like I have, you know, that's your over 10,000 emails in that.

So like, not a big deal.

I have—

not a big deal. So, uh, I have that now. So it's a little different, but the personal one's sweet.

Like, I—

there's a kid, uh Have you heard of— I'm gonna butcher the name— La Frey? It's good. Brandon started like— it's like a premium menswear clothing company. It's, it's like new, small. He's based in New York. He's— and he's basically building what, what is like, I don't know, like a new Ralph Lauren, like super high-end.

It was like the Alfred one.

Alfred, yeah.

I don't know if it's Alfred, maybe Alfred.

Yeah, Alfred.

Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, it's nice stuff. Yeah, yeah. So he I've met him a bunch of times. He's a really nice kid. Um, but he writes like a weekly update to just like anyone who's in his email contacts. And it's a newsletter. It is exactly what it is. Like, here are the updates on the business. Here's the updates on me. It's not like a beehive thing. It's not like you— like, I emailed him once and now I get this thing and like, I like it. Like, it's cool. Like, I don't always read the whole thing, but I glance at it. But I like what he's doing because it's just like, Oh, I keep getting reminded of Lefray and it's in my inbox and it's just like I've communicated with him before. I went to one of his events or something like that. And now it's— he just exactly what kind of what you're saying. It's branded, but it's cool.

Yeah, I think it'll basically just be an intersection of the things that happen in my life often or the things that are important to me. So it's like what's going on in my business. Another one that I've talked about, I asked a few people, for whatever reason you get the same, like we get crazy deal flow of people who are raising money. Um, and I'm not really investing anymore like I was for a period of time, but people always hit me up like, yo, do you know any investors? And I know a bunch of investors, but it's like, I don't want to sit there when I'm busy, like, okay, you're building a business in this space, who are all the people in this space who I can connect you with? So I was like, can I just like make an email list and reach out to any investor I've ever met and be like, hey, I'm just gonna mindlessly dump every deal that comes across my desk in here, and if it's something that's applicable to you, I'll make an intro. But instead, now when someone asks me, I'm like, oh, I'll just send it to my list of 300 people and if anyone wants an intro, I'll send it to you instead of like trying to make it this super totally specific thing. But it's like, okay, can I have a newsletter? It's like, here's what's going on in my business. Here are a couple of cool deals if you're interested in, like, here's some personal updates and just do it for fun and see what happens.

Yeah, no, I love that. Yeah, I, yeah, I've seen— I'm on some email lists for like that kind of thing too, for like invest, invest.

It's more to help my friends. It's not even like operationalize it for me to become this like investor person because I'm a builder at heart. But the one other thing I want to touch on before we wrap up here is the name of the pod is Turning Pro. So the analogy of this, I don't know if you know this, kind of why we started with this, but it's the idea of getting up from a poker table and going to a more high-stakes table, like the moments in your life where you decide to take shit to the next level. Like, what was that turning pro moment in your life looking back?

Uh, the layoff probably was it. It just like to not to be like a broken record, but just like this understanding of like really understanding there are no rules. Like there really aren't any rules to making money. And like my brain now works in a way that like I never thought it could, where it's just like how I think about things or like opportunities I take, take on, uh, whether it has to do with like Mugsy or what it has to do with my newsletter, whether it has to do with like something else, like I'm really just like, I don't really, you know, I like to learn from people, but I don't really pay attention too much to like how things are like supposed to happen. Right. Like I'm more of the mindset where it's like, let me figure this out on my own. And if there's a way I can like make money on it or turn it into something like I'm going to do that. So yeah, I mean, the layoff was huge for me. It was just like, all right, this, I just realized I like the system sucks. Like the fact that like I worked my worked so hard, like I was doing a good job making the company money, and like even that couldn't keep my job. I was like, well, I'll just create work for myself then. Like, I don't need— I don't need any of this. And like, I mean, now like making more money than I ever have because I just am doing it myself and I'm doing it my own way. And, um, yeah, I just— there's just really like no rules to this game that we're all playing. And entrepreneurship's awesome. It's— it definitely is scary sometimes, but Um, it's sweet. It's really sweet.

Hell yeah. That was a good ending.

Great way to end, man. Thank you for coming on.

Yeah, thanks for having me, guys.

Look at the—

look at the camera and—

which one?

The one directly on— and plug all the things where people find you, your newsletter, whatever you want.

So I am ASAP_Kale on all social media. I— that was from high school. I did it to make fun of a kid, and now I just kept it.

Uh, poor guy.

Unapologetic.

He was a bully, so I had to bully him back. And then my newsletter is called Trust Fund, and you can subscribe to it. It's just trustfund.beehive.com. I'm trying to get the Trust Fund URL, so if anyone can help me, it's a fucking nightmare. Some dude in Botswana is gatekeeping it.

See if I can help you out.

Shout out that guy.

Yeah.

All right. Awesome, man.