#034: John Coyle - Triple Whale’s $14 Billion Shopify Opportunity

I would actually suggest this for most average people. I think they need to get more out of consumer mode and more into collector mode when they're consuming content. So they're collecting knowledge. Not everything has to be an actionable thing. It can just be kind of going into your zeitgeist and informing your mindset. I guess one of the things I noticed is that the most interesting people that you pay attention to, they're not interesting because they're super tactical. They're interesting because they do interesting stuff and they consume interesting stuff.

John Coyle is the head of professional services at Triple Whale, a rapidly growing e-commerce infrastructure startup building the operating system for Shopify brands. Before joining Triple Whale, John was the CMO for Team Strategy and Ander and the founder of Explosive Growth Marketing. In this episode, we get an inside look at John's relentless growth mindset, making the jump from a founder to an employee, and the ROI in authenticity and storytelling for content creation. Welcome back to episode 34 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have John Coyle, who's the head of consulting at Triple L. Thanks for joining me today, John.

I'm excited to be here, my guy.

So this is episode number 2 without my co-host. Uh, Adrian is on a world tour.

Do you feel a little lost?

The first one was like, it was weird for me because when you learn how to, uh, work off of a co-host, it's very different than running a conversation by yourself. Yeah, because if you stop answer, it's on me to keep the conversation going, or else like you're just gonna sit inside.

You're like, shit, I wasn't ready. Yeah, actually, can I swear?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you can swear. Okay, uh, we're— there's no, no filters on this podcast.

Yeah, yeah, you're like, I wasn't ready. What were you saying?

But I told Adrian, I'm like, I'm not slowing down, uh, on filming because I'm having fun with it. He's like, it's great. I'll— when I'm back, we'll just keep going. So we'll see how it goes.

Yeah, you guys are smart too because you do the batch recording. So like if he's back for a weekend or whatever, you can do like like 3 or 4 episodes.

You know what's funny about that? Actually, when we first started doing that, I used to change my outfit every episode because I'm like this— like when I first started, like the first—

yeah, I don't want people to know it was on the same day.

I was like, this is so weird that you just like watch episodes week after week and have the same shirt on. And then after like 2 times, I'm like, what am I doing? Like, who cares? I said, if someone actually went so far to notice, like, you're a super fan. Like, whatever I do with this podcast ecosystem, like, you're coming with me.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I don't do it like, I'll give you the behind the scenes, man, like, I just do them all at once.

Exactly.

Or you can, you could always go with like the decision fatigue angle, you know what I mean? Yeah, my closet's all the same stuff because I'm like Steve Jobs, one color shirt, 5 of them, that's it.

Um, but maybe let's start with 2 things. Maybe give people listening a little bit of background about yourself, and then I think the second thing, uh, we should obviously highlight like why you were in New York all week.

Yeah, for sure. So I, uh, back in 2016, I was working at this agency, working at a marketing agency. Uh, had one kid, had another kid on the way. Uh, my wife was pregnant with her second. She's in school, she's not working. I'm the sole income provider. And my boss calls me or texts me actually and says, hey, can you come in 9:00 AM Friday for a meeting? This is Thursday evening. I'm like, sure. Uh, side note, if somebody asks you Thursday meet, Thursday evening for a 9:00 AM meeting on Friday is not good. They don't have anything good to say. So I went in there and they let me go. So I got fired. I'm the sole income provider. I got like a kid, another kid on the way. I'm freaking out a little bit, but I went to the parking lot and I'd been building some skills, right? So I could, I could do some marketing, I could do some media buying. I was a decent copywriter and I'd been meeting people. Going to events and just sort of networking. So I went and I sat in my car for a minute, kind of freaked out, hyperventilated, and I was like, I should probably call my wife. I couldn't call my wife, could not bring myself to call my wife because I did not want to call her without a plan. So instead I made like 3, 4, 5 other calls. I want to say I made 5 other calls and those 5 other calls gave me like 3 sort of freelancing clients. that I could do work for. From there I built an agency really, and, ended up selling that agency, marketing agency, and, started my own brand along the way. So sold that agency. I, I've been, I've led big marketing teams in agencies and at brands. Uh, and now I'm at Triple Whale, which is a, I call it like a scoreboard for your e-commerce business, right? What gets measured gets improved. We measure the stuff that helps you improve your business.

It's a lot to unpack there. Um, that's crazy, by the way. I didn't know any of that.

Yeah, dude.

I, I'm curious to know in hindsight, like, did you ever envision yourself being an entrepreneur where you'd go start your own thing, or was it one of those situations where it's like backs against the wall, you don't have a choice? And the reason I asked that is in today's day and age, the golden handcuffs are a real thing where there's a lot of people who think about wanting to build a business but but they can't fathom that period of unknown of like losing the salary, losing the backdrop. But when you're put in a situation where you don't really have a choice, you're not really thinking about that. You're just thinking about how do I put food on the table? And one thing leads to the next.

100%. I would, I would say it was the latter, right? Like I was just like back against the wall. I got to do something. And, uh, now, you know, being more self-reflective and understanding myself a little bit better as you do, as you age. I think I'm like a, I'm a reacher, right? Like, so I'm always like pushing myself. So I think that was probably inevitable at some point that I was gonna be entrepreneurial. And even when I have a job, right now I have a job, I still have a brand, you know what I mean? So I think it was probably inevitable because I'm just like relentless about building skills, relentless about building my relationships. But yeah, no, growing up, my plan was to be a professional athlete until I was like 40. And then after that, it would take care of itself because you know, I'd be famous.

Yeah. Like Mike Tyson never has a plan until they get punched in the face.

Yeah. Yeah. So that, that was the plan growing up. So no, I didn't ever think I'd be an entrepreneur. But yeah, no, I mean, I call myself like a reluctant entrepreneur because it's like I just got to— I got to— I got to put food on the table, you know?

Can you speak a little bit to maybe like the mindset or the ability to try to still have some level of work-life balance or just your approach to building that? And the reason I'm asking you that is because I'm an entrepreneur, but it was an intentional decision to like take the jump, leave behind the cushy job and do it, not like back against the wall. So I'm just, I want to hear from your perspective maybe what you think the differences were in hindsight, given that it was more of like, I don't have a choice situation.

I think balance. So I remember, uh, I got those first few freelancing clients and then I went I drove over and told my wife. She was at— on campus and she was like studying or whatever. I went and told her. And I remember being like, you know, there was a point at which I had these 3 and I'd maybe gotten another. And I was like, yeah, you know, we got kids. And if I take on more, I don't know if I, you know, how much time it's gonna— I'm gonna be really busy. And she kind of just said like, I think you gotta take on whoever will give you money right now. 'cause you don't know, right? Like, you don't know if somebody's gonna drop you or whatever. And I think balance is an interesting thing, 'cause one, I think I'm very, very bad at it. If you ask my wife, I don't think she would say I'm good at it. Uh, so I don't know if I'm like an expert here, but I think it really comes down to who, who are the people that you're balancing for and how do they feel about what you're doing? Um, and do you care? So if you don't really care what anyone else thinks, that's sort of the Alex Hormozi model, like, give a shit what anybody thinks, then you do whatever you want. You know, if you want to work all the time, work all the time. If you care about spending time with your kids or spending time with your significant other and stuff or something like that, then it comes down to what does that mean to them? What does that mean to you? You know, am I satisfied spending 2 hours a week, you know, watching a movie? But she's like, no, I want to spend time together every evening. Right, then, then you're not really meeting each other's needs in the relationship. So I think it's really, it's just like having relationships that work. And I don't think it's ever perfect, right? Like, it's, I think it's always a point of like conflict.

Where did you fall on that spectrum when it was like back against the wall, do whatever I can to make money?

Yeah.

Versus now where it seems like you're in a much more stable position professionally.

Uh, I, it does seem like that. I So back then I was just working. I actually think I probably spent more time with the family back then. Now, you know, I think as you get more success, your lifestyle expands to fit that. And then you, then you were working from a place of fear of loss, you know what I'm saying? I love that. Back then, for a couple months, we moved in with her parents and then we got her own, our own place. We had our own place. Another thing that happened at the same time is our landlord started hating my wife, so he kicked us out. They had like this conflict, right? And then so we like lived with her parents for a couple weeks, and we got our own— or a couple months, 2 months, and we got our own place. So like back then, you know, we lived in a cheap place. It was just us, 2 kids, 2 bedrooms, you know, in Utah. You know, it's not like living in New York. And we didn't really have much. We knew we didn't have much. And now we got a house, we got a yard, we got dogs, we got, you know, 3 kids. It's, it's— you— I'm more like protective of it. So I think I actually like push harder, work harder because I'm like maybe working from a place of fear, you know what I'm saying?

What, what would you say drives you? Like, is it, is it fear of failure, fear of loss?

No, deep down, deep down, I know that I want to I know what I want to do. So I have this kind of interesting, crazy mission to make content that is, I would call it better for you, right?

Better for you content.

Better for you.

New category creation. Everyone does it in CPG, but no one's doing it in content.

You got better for you cookies. You got better for you cleaning products.

You got to buy betterforyoucontent.com. You have to do it.

Better for you content. You know, you got Better For You, everything, right? People get better for it. Like, that's a big category in e-commerce, right? And like, the more I've been thinking about like, why have I done 120 episodes of my podcast and why don't I want it to just be like an e-commerce podcast? Why do I want it to be bigger? And it's because one of the things that's changed my life— there's really two things that have changed my life. One of them is really building a lot of relationships and caring about networking and meeting people who are skilled, who will have a skill that I want or have done something I want to do. And the other is like, I'm really relentless about educating myself, right? So building my own skill set, like building my own mindset, all of that stuff. So as my content consumption has been more like learning, like I consume content about learning, about, you know, improving, whether it's like something specific, like a skill or just myself in general. Listening to podcasts like this one. That's been a huge life-changing thing for me. And I think it can be for kind of everybody. Like, it just changed— changes how you look at the world and how you see what's possible. The problem is it's like vegetables, right? Like, like good, good content that's like good for you, makes you feel good. That's like carrots. Like watching reality TV, that's like eating pizza. Right? Like, if you could just eat pizza and not be fat, you'd do it. The reason people eat carrots is kind of because they have to. There's a whole industry that exists around making carrots taste better by dipping them, right? So I think that I have this vision that in order to make better-for-you content that people will actually consume, you gotta dip that bitch in some ranch. You know what I mean? It's gotta be somewhat entertaining or You know, it can't just be like, oh, let me watch this podcast where I'm gonna, you know, learn about something. Like there's gotta be a story, there's gotta be some form of entertainment there. You see that with Shark Tank or with, you know, some of these shows like The Profit and stuff that people actually watch. Like there's something compelling about it even if you're not interested in business. And that's kind of like the mission I'm on right now. I think that was your original question.

Like what's your attitude? That's such an, yeah, I'm sitting here just thinking about that analogy of like when you think about, uh, any category against food.

Yeah.

Because food is usually the escape thing. It's like, are you picking up the salad or the pizza, right? If we look at typical trends, like, are you stressed out? Are you financially stable? Probably has something to do with you eating the pizza instead of the vegetables or the salad, whatever it is, right?

Yeah, you're spending money on things that aren't helping you.

Yeah. And it's like, are you listening to a podcast about how to like manage your finances better, how to build your business? Are you listening to like, you know, reality TV where it's mindless, it's easy, it doesn't require you to be thinking? How do you marry those two in a way where it's not like over-index one way or the other?

Yeah.

Where you still feel like it's negative.

Yeah. And don't get me wrong, there's plenty of stuff that I just like chill with, you know what I mean? End of the day, I need to unwind, need to watch something brainless. I'm not against that. But if you think about that from a mission perspective, you and I know a lot of people who consume like better for them content because they're 'cause those are the circles we run in. I consume a lot of Better For Me content. You probably do as well. Like, go meet someone in, you know, Utah where I live, or, you know, Nevada, or the middle of Missouri, or something like that, Texas, who, you know, if they listen to a podcast, best case scenario it might be Joe Rogan, you know, which I'm not saying that, Joe Rogan's actually relatively educational. Joe Rogan is a good example of someone who kind of does this.

He dips the carrot in ranch.

Yeah, he dips that carrot in ranch, yeah. So, so, You know, but you know, they might listen to just a comedy podcast or something like that. When they watch videos on YouTube, they're watching MrBeast, which again, Jimmy, incredible dude, makes videos that are very, very compelling for a lot of people. They're not like better for you. Like they're just entertaining, right? Yeah. They watch reality TV or they watch sitcoms or whatever. Like that's the regular, that's like the average everyday person, right? So if you think about that mission of like, no, those people, I want them to be consuming. Better for you content, like it almost has to be disguised like Joe Rogan does it.

Yeah, it's a really interesting point. You talking about this makes me reflect on my own habits. And to be honest with you, I actually think one of the commonalities of the circles we run in and the people who are always doing that, at least for me, is because I can't turn my brain off. And I'm such a competitive person where I always feel like if I'm not doing something to get better, then it's not a good use of my time. And it's not healthy. Yeah, because it's like a lack of moderation in things where You know, I talk about therapy on every podcast I'm on where it's like, it's okay if you're doing something where it doesn't have like a benefit for you, right? You can't get me to sit down— like, I, I'm not someone who really can watch movies. Yeah. Which like my friends think I'm crazy for it, but it's like, I can't— I struggle to spend 2 and a half hours sitting and watching something mindless because my brain is turning about like the business I'm building or the things I'm doing.

Yeah.

And it's one of those things where I'm not necessarily proud of it, but you just learn how to live with it because it's your reality.

Do you know what I I think helps me do that is I, I realize that in consuming content I can— and I would actually suggest this for most people, most average people— I think they need to get more out of consumer mode and more into collector mode when they're consuming content. So they're, you know, collecting knowledge, collecting, you know, not everything has to be an actionable thing, right? It can just be kind of going into your zeitgeist and informing your mindset. But something that I will do, like when I watch movies, is I will like just look for storytelling patterns, look for like, what's compelling about this part? Why is this part boring? Right. And that's interesting. That's a background process at this point. Yeah.

Wow.

So because you're, you're thinking about a lot of tactical stuff, right? But like, what do you really need to get good at as the CEO of Platter? You need to get good at telling a story.

I'm going to call you in a month when I tell you my friends are like, Ben, why do you watch so many movies?

Now I'm an addict.

Like, dude, you're not actually helping your business because all doing is watching movies all day. I'm like, no, but John told me that if I learn how to tell stories and movies, that I'll be fine.

Yeah. No, I think it's, uh, wow.

That's such an interesting perspective.

It, it becomes a background process over time. Right. So it's, uh, and, and because I'm creating content, I think maybe that I think about that a little bit more when you're building a team, it feels more tactical and it feels more, you know, like you, you have to like consume stuff that's directly about that. Uh, but like, you know, I guess one of the things I noticed is that it's just like, uh, interesting— the most interesting people that you pay attention to, they're not interesting because they're like super tactical. They're interesting because they do interesting stuff and they consume interesting stuff.

I think it's twofold. I think it's that, and the second piece I think is relatability.

Yeah, you relate to them, but they— their inputs, they have inputs, right? So they go live an interesting life and they think about, there's some sort of background process that runs that allows them to go travel somewhere, go do some mundane tasks like go to the grocery store, and translate that into some sort of lesson that they could speak about later if they need to or not. It's just a background process that's running. They watch a movie, it's a background process that's running. And then they just kind of try and control their inputs, but for the most part, they just have that background process that allows them to take any input and make it valuable to them.

Those are the most successful people. Yeah, for sure. But, and I, I, you know what, I want to ask you a question that's very specific to this because I want to hear what your thought is, and then I want to come back to that. What do you think are the 3 most common traits of high performers?

Uh, from what I've seen, I think they're typically a little bit unbalanced. Like, unbalanced would be a negative way to put it. Very passionate, and like, they—

but negative, negative, you can— a negative answer is an acceptable answer with this question.

Unbalanced, like oftentimes, you know, and this is if you read about the most successful people ever, usually they're like horrible home life or something like that. That's not— that is a common trait that I've seen. Uh, they're, they're unbalanced. They, you know, the way that we think about balanced, we wouldn't call them that. And but it's because they are like really consumed and very passionate about what they're doing. Um, they are high skill, right? So they build like skill sets and they're really consummate learners. So like, uh, they'll stack skill sets and they might not talk about that very much. And I think that's one of the biggest misses that like early entrepreneurs have is they're like, you know, Steve Jobs says this. Like, dude, Steve Jobs has stacked so many skills that he just never talks about because that's not like, you know, it's not his job as the CEO, right? But like, he's probably got some developer, some developer skills. He's got product sourcing skills. He's, he knows more about shipping and processing than like a lot of e-commerce brands and 3PLs do, right? So he's stacked these like very specific skills that are kind of unsexy, right? That's another thing I've noticed about them. Um, so like high passion, which kind of translates to unbalanced, uh, skill stacking and learning. I think a third thing I've noticed about like the next level of people is that they are good communicators and connectors. Even if they're introverted, they somehow figure out a way to be really effective communicators and really good at connecting with other people who matter, you know? Yeah.

So the reason I asked you that, uh, my number one answer, which is similar to what your first answer was, was extreme insecurity.

It's usually start— I mean, I've talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and I feel like it usually starts from a place of insecurity where it's like you, you don't feel like you're good enough. Yeah.

And so you go down this rat race of, of attaining whatever you think you need to be good enough in your mind, and then once you get there, it shifts and the goalpost moves.

Yeah.

And you find yourself 50 years down the road chasing—

chasing—

where you've built a ton of things, you've done a ton of things. From the outsider's perspective, it's like, look how successful this person is. Yeah, they must be so happy. But in a lot of instances, it's actually like they're trying to find that, so they're just like chasing it.

Yeah, they're not happy.

And so the reason that I— the reason that I asked that question, back to the point you made previous to it, is you're sitting here talking to me about how The way that you're able to watch movies is by like figuring out storytelling tactics and things you can do in movies. Then you talked about high performers where what they do is they can control their inputs. And what I'm hearing, and the reason I ask that is like, is there really an off button?

I don't think there's an off button.

It's like everything— the way that you're describing it is like everything you're doing in your life is all feeding the same beast. And it's like you take pleasure, not pleasure, whatever, and you're always trying to find some way to benefit or improve, and not being able to just look at something at face value of like, I'm watching this movie to just like enjoy sitting with my wife or my kids to watch the movie, not because I'm trying to learn something. It doesn't seem like a lot of high-performing people can actually do that.

I would say, um, yeah, for most the pe— for the most of the people that you want to be, that you look up to, and I think that you're trying to achieve, I, I don't know that there's an off button, but I don't look at it as like an on-off light switch. I think that's a dimmer. You know what I mean? So there's some times where it's like they're super on, it's very bright, you know, but we try and do like a, you know, pizza and a movie night at my house on Friday. We're usually watching a kid's movie. My kids are young, right? So if I'm watching Zootopia for the 10th time, like, am I really getting much from that, or am I just kind of watching Zootopia, having a good time, eating some pizza?

You're like watching your kids watch it at that point.

Yeah, the dimmer is low, right? Like, I'm just kind of like cuddling, relaxing, trying to trying to let go, right? You know, it's maybe off when I'm asleep. I don't know. I don't remember my dreams. So yeah, I think it's a— I think it's more of a dimmer, right? Like you can turn it down, but I actually think that's part of success is that there's always a background process running, and I think it can be really hard on the relationships.

What about another thing I wanted to touch on is the fact that you've been in different situations where you were an owner-operator-founder, and now you're in a position where your main focus is— well, I guess the term main focus is subjective, but you're an area where you spend a lot of your time. You're not the CEO, owner-founder. Can you speak a little bit to like what has changed and how it's been challenging, maybe going from driving your own bus to being a passenger, for lack of a better term?

Yeah, it's weird. I have like a 401k. Don't know what that is, but I got one. You know, I got insurance and stuff, uh, insurance and stuff. Yeah, yeah. I had to fill out paperwork and yeah, no, I don't know. Uh, it, it's like Triple Whale. I joined— I, I wouldn't have taken very many like W-2 jobs where I'm like an employee. Um, so I'll start there and say that joining Triple Whale is one of the few companies I would have joined and having the position of head of consulting. So I'm literally in charge of consulting and coaching e-commerce brands on how to grow better. That's like one of the few jobs I would take.

So it's kind of a sick job.

It is. I think it's the best job in e-commerce. Like, I wouldn't— I don't think I'd want to start another agency. You know, being in-house could be fun, but it's super stressful as well. Like, you're riding it all on that one brand. Um, something like tech-enabled, like what you're doing, is kind of— is interesting for sure. But yeah, I mean, I joined a tech company, right? I joined a tech company as a service. So it's very similar to what you're doing, right? There's—

put it this way, like, there's absolutely a position for the role you're doing in like the Platter, the version of Platter that's like 18 months down the line, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's— you guys are still servicing clients, but you're using some tech that you're building to do it. Triple Whale is just more built out on the tech side. But, you know, and then they're bringing in the service side later.

We have— I guess what I'm saying is we have the services piece. Yeah, but it's more like a very small team. Managing the full portfolio of clients. And it's not like we're at the same scale where you would be because you sit with a full calendar every day.

Yeah.

Of internal customers at Triple L. Like, we just don't even have enough customers today, right, to make that like the situation.

And that's a big-time blessing too, is that it's, you know, I do have to fill my ca— like, it doesn't just fill naturally. So I got to, I got to hustle to fill my calendar. And so, I mean, I will say the stressful part of it, the, the revenue that I'm supposed to get it to and in the time that I'm supposed to get it there, is pretty insane. I'm supposed to like basically 6x the revenue within a 3-month, 3 to 4-month time span of—

How long have you been in that role?

Services? 3 to 4 months from now.

So I think they told you, okay, so basically you're supposed to 6x within 1 year, give or take?

6x from where we are now in another 3 to 4 months.

Oh, so they decided—

Probably already doubled or maybe tripled it. So there's a little bit of a ramp period learning, figuring things out. So that's another thing is like, I mean, you asked about like being at a company. Like, it's really weird for me to, like, sit down at my desk and be like, I have a question. I don't even know. Not only do I not know the answer to this question, I don't even know who I'm supposed to ask, right? Like, I got to ask someone who to ask. Like, that's a very strange thing to experience as, like, someone who's been driving the bus for a few. I'm like, if I don't know the answer, then I know exactly who to ask. And if one of us doesn't know, then nobody knows. So that's a little bit different. You know, being in an organization with a lot of people is really different. Triple Whale is a great organization. People are ambitious there. People are working super hard. There's other people who care about content. Part of the reason they brought me on is because they care about content. So they're sort of aligned with my vision.

I'm all in on content, for what it's worth. Like, I believe in SaaS companies leaning into it.

Yes. And I think, you know, if I look at SaaS companies that do it really well, HubSpot obviously comes top of mind. I think Triple Whale is up there as well. It's one of the few reasons I would have— it's a company I'd join. But yeah, I mean, there's a stressful part of it too, is that I'm supposed to accelerate the revenue of that department at a very rapid pace. And that calendar doesn't fill naturally. So I'm doing a lot of, a lot of outreach to current clients. You know, like it's not cold, but a lot of outreach to current clients, a lot of like, you know, I'll just like look at the calendar of our customer success people and I'll just like spy on all their calendars. And if I have a gap, I'll be like, let me get on that call. Let me get on that call. Let me get on that call. and then I'll try and be booking calls with, with their customers and stuff. So it's a lot of hand-to-hand combat at the moment. A lot like a startup would be. Yeah.

What about, uh, you have a couple different things going on away from Triple Whale. You got the podcast, newsletter. Uh, yep.

Yep.

Got the newsletter. You said you also have a brand.

Yeah. The brand I, I definitely had to, uh, pull back on when I joined Triple Whale. So, uh, it's a, it's an e-com. Brand. I, I mean, I can share the niche, but it's a niche that has been politicized, which I'm not necessarily saying I align with politically or not, but this is— it's in a niche that's been politicized, so I don't usually say what it is publicly. Yeah. Uh, but it does $3 million, $4 million a year, but it's really good profit margins. It's a lifestyle thing for myself and the other co-founders. At this point, I'm kind of, uh, rolling out new creative tests in it, like still working in the ad account, rolling out new creative tests, optimizing the ad account. Couple times a week.

Where— what drives you? Where do you find fulfillment? Because you're doing so many different things. Uh, yeah, I'm curious, like, what do you wake up excited about?

It's the content. So, I mean, that, that I've really realized that's the mission and that's what I want, you know. I can honestly— Triple Whale provides me a vehicle to do a bunch of interesting stuff and be around a bunch of interesting people. So even if the— let's say the podcast got huge, that's my dream, right? I might still work at Triple Whale just because of the, like, sort of access it gives me. Um, but yeah, at the end of the day, it is the content. And, you know, so a lot of what I'm doing, like, if my brand, like my e-commerce brand, there's not really any mission there. It's, it's for money, you know. Uh, my life's gotten pretty expensive at this point.

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with it being for money.

Yeah, being honest with yourself about labeling things like that is helpful though. Like, not everything has to be a mission. Sometimes it's just for money.

And don't lie to yourself about it, I think, is the more important Yeah, takeaway from it.

Yeah, for sure.

Um, okay, so let's talk about the content piece because you're one of very few people that have come on Turning Pro that also has a podcast. Oh, I love these conversations because you're having conversations with people who also have done a lot of practice of having conversations. As silly as it sounds, there's something to be said, uh, to speak with someone who understands what it means to be on both sides of the table because you also can very easily delineate between those conversations and ones with people who are like new to this world.

Yeah.

And the reason I say that is because the first time I ever interviewed, first couple interviews, I was like, oh my God, this is definitely not what I thought it was when you're just like watching it on YouTube or Apple. Like, it takes a little bit of repetition. Well, to do it well—

can I break it that down for you?

Yeah, yeah, of course. What—

tell me some of your, your favorite pods that you watch on YouTube.

I mean, Diary of a CEO, I think, was the first one that I said.

Yeah.

I can tell you the thing that I'm still trying to figure out, and I don't know else you were trying to get at, but if you can help me answer this question, then I'll be happy. That man's ability to just extract emotion. Yeah, from his guests.

Incredible stories from his guests.

It's almost like it's fake. I'm like, there's no way that every third guest is crying on this podcast. Like, how is he doing this?

Most people are very bad at telling their own story and the story of their company. And the thing that they do the most is they de-emphasize the lows. So I'll give you an example. My dad and mom got divorced when I was a kid. A lot of kids' dad and moms got divorced when they were kids. It's like 50% of kids that are my age, right?

And it's only climbing.

Yeah, yeah. And it's so, it's no big deal, right? Like it's, and when people ask like, was that really hard? Honestly, like not that hard. Like I don't think it's like a big like therapy issue holding me back. Why did they get divorced though? My dad was physically abusive. I think a lot of people would downplay that because the way that he was physically abusive wasn't like we were covered in bruises, you know what I mean? Like, he'd push us, he'd maybe throw me. I was a little kid, right? He'd throw me. I don't know that any of us, either of us, got really seriously injured, but it was escalating. So I think the way a lot of people would tell that story is they say Oh yeah, no, my parents got divorced when I was 7 or 8. It was like a lot of kids in my class. It was, it was hard, but like, honestly, not too bad. I was actually, I was actually not too like shook up about it. That's de-emphasizing the low. That's what a lot of people do. And so I think that the people who are on Diary of a CEO especially, that's like a great example of this. Most of them are pretty well media trained and pretty well trained at telling their own story. And they don't de-emphasize the lows. Or if he ever did have someone on who wasn't well media trained and wasn't good at telling their own story, he would coach them to not de-emphasize the lows. So I think that's a big thing that you can do with guests is like, ask them a couple questions beforehand, get their story, and you can try and coach them up on how to like make that a better story. Uh, but it's tough, you know, a lot of them don't want to A lot of people want to downplay stuff if they're not media trained.

But I also think the second piece to it— maybe I'm wrong because I, I'll be the first to admit you've probably done way more research than I have on this— it seems like the best interviewers, with Stephen Bartlett being at that top of that list in my opinion, when he sees an opportunity to jump and like dig a layer deeper and dig a layer deeper, like he'll keep going until he can actually get it out of you. So to play back to the example you just alluded to, I think it's establishing the level of comfortability with the guest before you actually have the conversation. So that if you sat down and said to me, oh, my parents got divorced when I was 7 years old, and I'd say, okay, why? Right? Like, you might be uncomfortable.

But, but yeah, but here's what a lot of people will do. If you ask me why, I'd be like, I don't know, probably because I struck out in my Little League game, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

If I would have gotten that hit, my dad wouldn't have left, you know what I'm saying? They kept saying it wasn't my fault, but like, they said it so many times, I feel like it's got to be Got to be my fault, right? Like, I would joke, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what a lot of people will do. They'll deflect or they'll be like, you know, I don't know. I think some people are just incompatible. I was a kid. I don't really know. They won't, like, give you an avenue to go deeper.

But how much, I guess, of the conversation is pre-work from his perspective and his team's perspective to basically, like, inform someone that, hey, we're going to lean into the lows and you need to know coming into this conversation that you have to be willing to just, like, open up the book. Because if you just come in and give me surface-level answers, this episode's not even going to get aired because we're not going to get what we want out of it.

That's what it is. They got to know. They got to know that they're, they're going to have to peel the onion and they're going to have to like not de-emphasize the lows. They're going to have to talk about it. And I mean, Diary of a CEO is so big at this point that you're willing to do that. Well, that's my question for you actually, is like, but when you have a small pod, not a lot of you might miss guests that you really want because they're like, I don't really want to talk about like that.

Yeah, so I guess like, like asking that question selfishly. Yeah, you know, right now I would say it's not so much that our pods are surface level. I would say they're very specific to like action-oriented ideas around business and like aspiring entrepreneurs who are, you know, like hearing little stories like what you talked about with your back against the wall and how you think about compartmentalizing. Excuse me. Yeah, uh, that is like helpful, but that's not necessarily going into the like why your parents got divorced.

Yeah.

And so I guess all of that to say, I'm curious what your advice would be to someone who's building a podcast of like, how do you think about that natural evolution over the course of stacking more episodes and then trying to get deeper, trying to get more like emotional and starting to really pull those things out of someone?

It's a good question. So this is why I was kind of asking you the other day off camera, like, what do you want it to be? And you're like, right now I'm just chasing my curiosity. That's great. It's kind of what Tim Ferriss does. But as you get around, for me, as I got 50, that's what I started out doing too. I don't care how the conversation goes, you know, if I'm, if I'm curious about the tactics you use, I'm gonna ask those questions. If you say something and I think that's just interesting, I'm just gonna chase my curiosity. As you get more episodes in, you start to ask yourself like, what do I, am I doing here? Do I want the views? And I've already told you what my mission is. So I want the views, of course, you know, like, and I don't even mean that in a vain way. That serves my mission. Uh, if you want the views, then it can't be just like a tactical marketing podcast, you know, or a tactical bootstrap startup podcast. Uh, if you want it to be a tactical bootstrap startup or tactical marketing thing, then the main way it's going to grow is as you grow within that little niche, right? And that The reason I know is 'cause ModCom at one point, my, my podcast Modern Commerce at one point got pretty, I think I got like 50,000, 30, I was doing 30,000, 50,000 downloads a month and it was just like this e-commerce marketing podcast. And then you're kind of, you know, limited by whatever that niche is. So if you ultimately want to like broaden and get more views from anybody, not just people who are like in that, right? Like people who are agency marketers or, you know, Uh, startup, startup marketers or something like that, then you have to consciously make the decision to start telling stories, start, you know, being more, having the conversations be more broad, but then somehow get tactics into there. That's where I am right now. It's very hard to not sort of betray my initial audience that liked the tactical conversations, but still have a broad conversation that would be interesting to anybody. It's really a challenge.

It's an interesting internal thought process for myself because I think that, uh, the Turning Pro podcast serves an amazing purpose for what I'm doing professionally, uh, but I've also learned through doing it that I actually find so much fulfillment in having conversations with interesting people. Yeah, because I'm such a curious person, um, and I've also been told candidly by a lot of people who are like, you are meant to be doing this, like you just It feels natural, it looks natural, it seems like you're really enjoying it.

Yeah.

So in a lot of sense, one of the things I think about is like, is there a world in a future state where I have like, you know, I don't think this is a today thing, but it's like the Ben Sharf Show, right? Where that's actually just me, you know, doing like the Steven Barlett thing where it's like talk to really interesting people about very deep things that you're curious about.

Yeah.

But you've already made it in business where like you don't have to go like build because you already built the company, already did the thing.

Yeah, I mean, dude, that's— I don't know if I have the answer, but I can tell you all the things I've thought about there, you know what I mean? I think if you look at podcasts like, you know, the All In podcast, super popular, a lot of people like it. I think the main reason somebody else could do that same content and nobody would watch. I think the main reason you're watching is because all of the hosts are incredibly accomplished. So when they talk about current events and their thoughts on current events, you want to know what, what they have to say, right? Uh, Stephen Bartlett, it's like this very hard-hitting emotional thing. He knows that's what he wants to do and he knows that's what he's going to do. And if you are someone who just doesn't have a compelling story or are not able to make your story maybe a little more dramatic and compelling than it actually is, you're not going to go on Diary of a CEO. As it grows, right? So at first, maybe you're getting whatever guests you can, but as it grows, he's gonna say no to more guests that are not, that are not gonna fit that from a content perspective. Uh, and then you look at like a My First Million or something like that, same kind of thing. As they've grown, uh, their whole thing is like, we're just gonna, it's kind of a, a beer drinking entrepreneurship thing where we're gonna, you know, find random crazy businesses, random crazy stories. We're gonna laugh a little bit. We're gonna chat a little bit, you know, early on their guest, their bar for a guest was not low because they were already pretty successful, but it's gotten way higher, right? Like you've gotta be, you've gotta have a great personality or a great story or a great something. So I think that's really what it ends up being. Like if you ever have the Ben Sharf Show, you're not gonna have John Coyle in his current state on, you know what I mean? You're not gonna have, uh, you, you would have more people like your roommate Zach who, who's already more established and. Is, I won't say media trained, but has learned to tell his story in a compelling way, hard-hitting way.

Yeah. Yeah, that makes, it makes a ton of sense. I'm just like sitting here processing, thinking about it in real time.

Yeah.

And just, but I think it also, I haven't cracked this. No, totally. But I think it's also, it's also relative to where you are in your life. Because to be honest with you, I have a couple friends who've done it where the podcast was like the first thing they did. Before they like made it professionally. And they've, they've actually pulled it off in a way that's like amazing.

Yeah.

But I just know that like, that was like a 5, 6 year— like, we talk about it offline who it is, I'm not gonna name names, but it's like a 5, 6 year journey to get to that point because they didn't have a pedigree. But then they became someone who's a good interviewer who just had the gift of gab that could get the right people into their ecosystem to come on the show, uh, which is an amazing networking ploy in addition. But it's definitely something that I think about. It's not a now thing for sure. Yeah. But that's why I'm also enjoying having conversations like this that like kind of help guide me as I'm growing in my own journey.

Yeah. I think you, you can chase your curiosity. And the nice thing about yours that's maybe a little different than mine is you've put, you've already positioned it more broadly, calling it the Turning Pro Podcast. I mean, if you listen to the first 30 episodes, it's not like you guys are talking about incredibly tactical stuff every time. You're talking about self-development. Talking about what's going on in your life. So in a sense, it's kind of like a more casual version of what could be a Stephen Bartlett, right? Like, you know, maybe not every conversation gets deep and emotional, uh, but it is just like a real sort of conversational thing. I would, I would compare it to something kind of Tim Ferriss-y, right? Yeah.

And then you, you, you ask the question like, okay, let's see what it looks like when you've done 500 episodes, right? Like, I'm a believer that, uh, with most content creators especially, that those that fail, it's because they can't stay in the game long enough.

I mean, right.

How many podcasters do you know that are on episode 1,000 that actually don't get anyone listening? You might know some.

It's a good example. I mean, I don't know that I can think of an example off the top of my head other than maybe something that's a micro podcast where they post something small daily or something like that. I could see that happening.

But yeah, I guess it's— I guess there's— there's— let me rephrase because that's a good point. There's an element of time.

Yeah.

Associated with it. Like if I just sat down today and filmed 1,000 10-minute episodes, I mean, I actually like— if you post those every, every day, every week, who actually knows? But I'm more, I'm more trying to draw from this idea that like if you really want to be a content— like Zach is a great example.

You just got to do—

people don't understand that Zach has not missed a day of posting content for like 5 years.

Yeah.

And he had like 150,000 followers last year. He's now at 1.5 million.

Yeah.

It's the overnight success that took 5 years to get to.

I think, you know, I think it is, uh, we're really good at understanding this in other areas. So you've gotten into running recently. I used to be a— I don't know, call it what you want— elite. I used to run semi-professionally as a distance runner.

And we're just going to take a 180. You want to talk about the big brand that you worked with?

The big brand I work with?

You had a short stint with a brand. Is that not true?

Which brand?

Skechers.

Yes. Oh dude, did you do some research on me?

I did some research.

Did a little research. Yeah.

This man, this man is a Skechers-sponsored athlete.

I signed a deal with Skechers out of college. Now, that sounds so dumb.

Like, that's so cool.

You know what I mean? It's like sign with Nike, sign with Adidas.

Nah, man, it's cool because I also—

things you used to buy at Payless, I signed with them.

I think it's cool because you also were not probably expecting me to say that.

I wasn't expecting you to say that. I was surprised.

And then your juggling career as well.

Yeah, I got— I Yep. A little bit of juggling in there. Uh, so, so Skechers had at the time, uh, they had signed a Meb Keflezighi who had won a silver medal in the marathon. So they had like a flagship athlete that made me feel a little less ashamed of, uh, signing with Skechers. But yeah, no, I mean, I, they paid me a signing bonus. They did prize money matching. Like I got paid to run. Uh, people will ask me questions like, like how do I improve my form or breathe or like, I'm trying to get my time to this, like, how do I do that? And I'm like, I mean, just what do you— how many miles a week you're running? 40 miles a week, 50 miles. Cool. Keep doing that for like another 5 years, you know, or, or run a whole bunch more right now and probably get hurt, right?

That's what I did.

Yeah. So, so that's the thing. It's like you can only handle so much.

And honestly, I think by the time you get to 1,000 episodes, you're a lot better at it, you know, because like how many things you do over and over and over where you get worse, like it's not how the world works.

Are you really ready to have that viewership at a 50 episodes, 35 episodes? Probably not. Like, you're gonna be a lot better at it at 1,000 episodes. And so, or 500 episodes. I think, uh, it's the same thing with running. Like, you can only run so many miles a week because your body's only there. And we're willing to accept that in running. Like, nobody thinks, like, how do I get from a 3:15 marathon down to a 2:15 marathon this year? Like, everybody knows that's going to take years, right? Because you're gonna have to build and build and build and build and build. So I think it's like, you know, a long enough time horizon makes kind of anything possible, right?

Do you still run?

No. It's very depressing to know that you'll only ever get worse at something.

Like, really? Well, it depends.

Do you still play hockey?

Well, like, that's— we just literally contradicted ourselves in the last 2 seconds where I'm like, if you do something 1,000 times, you're obviously only going to get better. Yeah, but then the exception to that is if you're doing something competitively or professionally, or you're— it's your life's work and then you stop doing it.

The exception to that is things where you use your body because your body gets older.

Yeah, that's fair.

So yeah, athletics, usually you don't— you reach a peak and then you won't ever get better.

Do you ever have the urge to put running shoes back on or not even say running shoes on right now? Well, you actually go outside and run though.

Got some Hoka's on, you know. That's, that's my limit. I put them on.

I was gonna say you cut me off or you didn't let me say put on the shoes and run.

Yeah, I'll usually go on, you know, if you were to average out my mileage over the last year, you know, I might be hitting 4 or 5 miles a week. Like, so I'll go for a run every few weeks.

It's more than, more than the amount of time I spend on the ice, I'll tell you that for free.

Yeah, well, that's it, right? Because it's like, I don't want to just get worse at this forever. So I like to play basketball now. That's kind of my thing. I lift a little bit.

I box now. That's my new, new activity.

Yeah. Well, and What's— what do you— what's fun about that? Like, you get to get better at it.

Yeah, because I sucked at it when I started.

So bad at it, right?

It's such a technical thing too. I know, I was like, oh, this is fine, I've been in a couple fights in hockey, like, I'm sure I'll be good at boxing. Put on the gloves, like, oh my God, I feel like I'm—

you're like, dude, can we put on some ice skates? I feel like I'd do so much better if we could put on some ice skates.

Literally. Yeah. Um, anyways, one question that I want to ask you. So the reason that the podcast is called Turning Pro, which you've listened to a couple episodes, so you probably know this Uh, what have been the biggest turning pro moments in your life where you feel like it was just time to take things to the next level?

I think the one I said earlier where I went and got my own bit, my own money for my own self as like a contractor freelancer. And I did that by just like making some calls and it's like, oh, that's like, I just sold into my own service. Uh, I don't know that I saw myself as a business owner yet, but I think that was like a big moment. Like that, that's like the threshold or the peak that like, you know, before that I was just maybe a guy who could do something on the side of his job. And after that it was like, I can just have this be the job. Just me. So that was a big moment. Some of them are interesting because I knew I was going to become a professional runner after college. But getting, I think part of the reason I signed with Skechers, because I could have stayed more like more of a free agent and just worn whatever I want. And it wouldn't financially have made that much of a difference, made a little difference but not a lot. But part of the reason I signed with Skechers is because they gave me a signing bonus. It was $1,000. They gave me a $1,000 signing bonus. And I think just the mental aspect of like signing, having to wear their stuff, being contractually obligated to them, and getting paid to sign the contract, like made me feel like a pro. Um, so I think there's sometimes it's like you gotta like do a thing where you're like, you know, I'm just gonna collect some money for that so that I feel like I'm a professional at it. Right. Uh, the first person who, which was Triple Whale actually, uh, offered me a sponsorship for my podcast. I still would not say I'm like that professional as a podcaster, but that was the first time I was like, media can be the job.

You know, we've actually never, we've never asked anyone to sponsor Turning Pro.

Yeah. Uh, so he was looking, I think at first a lot of times it comes inbound. Somebody's like, oh, I'm looking for good pods, and maybe somebody tags you.

We just started the conversations like a couple weeks ago. We're now exploring it, but to date there was never anything. But that's super cool.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, that's a big one, right? It's like you're not making anything serious, but it shows you anything, I think, where you collect money for a thing you're doing, right? And you're like, oh, this can be the thing. Like, that's literally what professional means.

Yeah, someone's paying you to do something. It's true.

Yeah.

Um, this has been awesome. I think there's probably people listening who thought we were going to sit here and nerd out about e-com. You probably thought that too.

I didn't know what you were going to ask. Uh, I've listened to a few episodes and I know you don't always go like— sometimes you guys just talk because I chase my curiosities.

That's the honest truth. And I think some listeners will appreciate that and some won't because they're like, I want to get the same commonalities all the time. I think given the fact that we do both operate in the same ecosystem would love to finish this out with maybe, uh, a couple like bold predictions that you have just in the landscape of e-com in the Shopify world in this year. I know you and your team, you guys seem to think that 2024 is going to be one of the bigger years in e-com in a while.

Yeah, you're setting up the Triple Whale pitch, huh? Uh, Triple Whale's not even sponsoring this, man.

Like, no, I know.

Thanks. True. Uh, okay. So I mean, I'll just send them an invoice after we just— yeah, go ahead. Uh, So we just launched, or, you know, kind of announced the launch of like a 3.0 product that is heavy AI integrations. And if you don't know what Triple Whale is, or like, let me broaden this, 'cause some people will know what that is. It's what I call, it's like a scoreboard, right? So what gets measured gets improved. Who said that? It's like Peter Thiel or something like that. One of those guys. One of those tech guys said it.

One of those guys.

One of those tech guys.

Someone on the All In Pod probably.

Yeah, probably. What gets measured gets improved. So I, I think about things in sports analogies a lot, right? Like, how do we— what do we measure? We measure stats. Where do we measure them? Usually on a scoreboard or in a book, right? Uh, ECO— Triple Whale is just the scoreboard for your business. So the things that matter, the points, assists, you know, whatever, that's, that's where it gets measured. Where do your sales come from? That's where Triple Whale measures it. What is your profit level? What, you know, what channels are a waste of money? What channels are Good money. What's your lifetime value? That we measure all that stuff, and that's the stuff that matters to your business. And that's what it is right now. Uh, what's that— what that's missing is really what my team fills in a lot of the time is, okay, that's great information, what do I do with that? Uh, and that's when you add heavy AI integration to all that data, uh, the possibility becomes you basically have sort of another marketing team member to bounce ideas off of, to give you ideas, to give you insights that you wouldn't even have known to go look for in your data. So I think that's exciting, but I think I have some other, like, more broad predictions as well.

Hit me for e-commerce.

Okay, so I get on a lot of calls every week and the brands I see thriving right now, there's two things to preface this for those who are maybe only partially listening earlier.

He talks to brand owners all day, so I actually listen to whatever you're about to say.

All day, every day. I talk to brand owners or marketers. Sometimes they're like a head of marketing or something like that. Uh, the brands that are doing really well, I've noticed, have really high repeat customer volume. And that's not a new thing. But here's why I think it is. I think that they are able to make it about something bigger and more broadly interesting, right? So it's one thing to sell this wallet. Right. It's a cool wallet. Fits all my stuff, has that little switchblade feature. You know, they've been a client of mine before. Think they're on Triple Well, I can't remember, but— Which one is that? One thing to sell it, it's Ekster, I guess. No, send them an invoice as well. Yeah. Ekster wallet.

Plugging everyone to our millions of viewers.

Yeah, yeah. So that's Ekster. It's one thing to sell that wallet. It's cool, it's flashy, you know, I mean, maybe you can tie some status into that, But all of that is still like benefit, individual benefit driven, even if you can tie status into it, which is good. That is what you should do with your marketing is if you're selling a luxury product, you should like communicate the, the status of it. But the brands I think that really break through are the ones that are able to make it more about like, yes, it is about your individual status, or yes, it is about the individual benefits to you, but it's also about like a bigger thing. Like a, like an existential thing or a world thing, right? So, you know, example is like a brand that I've talked to on this podcast recently. They have a natural men's skincare brand. So I could focus on the benefits of you, like you're going to look hot, girl won't be able to keep her hands off of you, you know? Or I could say, you know, hey, I think there's this problem in the world where like men have two choices. They can use the 5-in-1 skincare thing that's going to moisturize, body wash, face wash, shampoo, conditioner, oil change, lube, all of it. You know, it's all there in there. Yeah. You know, it's so they can use that, which is full of chemicals and poison, and they can rub that poison all over their skin or they can look old and weathered. But there's no other option. How do I know? This is the founder. You know, I'm playing the founder here. How do I know that? Because I wanted to look hot, so I used that and I got cancer at age 27. Right? Like, he's able to make it about something bigger, right? So I can say, hey, you want to look hot? You want your girl not to keep— you know, she can't keep her hands off of you. And that's usually how you're going to get that first customer, right? It's like, yeah, I want my girl to want me, right? But, but then you make it about something bigger. Like, hey, men don't actually have an option. Women do, because there's a lot— it's a big industry. But for men, we can use the 5-in-1 from Jiffy Lube, or we can use nothing. And there's no other— and there's no other option. So then, then it becomes more about like, yeah, that's wrong, right? And you get on board with the— so I'm not like big on like cause-driven, like we donate and stuff like that. I'm saying like, no, when you make the first sale, you still have to make it about that individual customer. But then can you make it about like a bigger story after that? Yeah, it comes back to what we were talking about, like how well do people tell their stories? Um, the story of themselves, the story of why this brand even exists. So that's one prediction. The brands that do that are the ones that are gonna thrive, and that's what I see already. The other thing I see is ideation of creatives matters. So in e-commerce, we've done this thing for ads where we say we gotta test a bunch of ads. And so we create a system where we can source 100 ads a week. And they're basically all the same ad, but they're different variations. Or maybe they're like 4 different ads and 25 variations of each. And we're just like, the game is volume. Just put the volume in there because we're putting money behind it. So it tests quickly. The brands that I see winning are the ones that are actually— and, but all the ideas are coming from one person in that kind of volume play. The brands I see winning are the ones that are like focusing on the ideation, and they have ideas coming from more than one person. And they might have, you know, some creators sending them ads, and they're not even telling the creators what their best performing ads are. So those guys are just— those guys or girls are just coming up with their own ideas of like, all right, how would I sell this product, right? And they might have a creative agency that's writing ideas, writing scripts. They might be doing it themselves internally. Um, it's the MrBeast shift. Right. So in, in Jimmy, in MrBeast's organization, he has a position called creative. It's the position he pays more for than any other position. Your whole job is to come up with video ideas for the company that is the best in the world at coming up with video ideas. That's your job. And he hires a group, like a crew of people to do that. Uh, we don't do that in e-commerce. We optimize for, uh, the ideas don't matter. Just give me 100 creatives. So that's another thing I think is shifting, especially because AI will be able to give you the volume, but the ideation is still really important.

Yeah. What about the consolidation of technologies?

Consolidation of technologies.

Oh yeah, that's shameless platter plug.

Yeah, also Shopify stores way too many apps slowing down their site. They're paying for shit they don't need. Uh, you— so they got to switch the platter. Obviously you'll Can you release my family now?

Yes, you're good. You can go now.

Great.

What? That should be the ending of the podcast.

Yeah, my family can go.

Yeah. Now you could look at the camera and let everyone know where they can find you.

@johnjhcoyle on all the socials. So @johnjhcoyle on Twitter and LinkedIn is where I'm most active, but I post podcast clips on Instagram.

You can plug your pod as well.

Podcast is currently called Modern Commerce. I might rebrand it because I hate that name. Uh, so if you got any suggestions, hit me on socials. Uh, but actually if you search on YouTube for John JH Coyle, that's where I post the pod. If it's— if you're searching on podcast apps like Spotify or whatever, then you gotta look for Modern Commerce.

Awesome. Thanks for having— thanks for coming on. I think I was gonna say thanks for having me because I was on your pod, but yeah, you're welcome, dude. Well, we could try that again. Thanks for coming on, John. That was fantastic. I actually really enjoyed that conversation. I feel like that wasn't what I intended for this to be, but it— I think that's why it was better than I was expecting.

That's what I'm here for.

Awesome, man.