#035: Peter Kang - 18+ Years of Agency Lessons Learned at Barrel

a period where first 2, 3 years no one subscribes and I'm just writing, but then it starts to really compound quickly once you gain momentum. So it is about sticking it out. But also I made sure though, the writing first and foremost was for me. And that was, I think, a big motivator for keeping it going. 'Cause I'm like, look, even if nobody reads this, the fact that I took the time to reflect and write stuff is clarifying and helpful for myself. And that's the number one, uh, reason to write in the first place anyway. And in many ways, like putting it out as a newsletter or LinkedIn post, that's a byproduct of what I'm doing for myself.

Peter Kang is the co-founder and CEO at Barrel, a creative and digital marketing agency in New York City that specializes in designing digital experiences for consumer brands. Before launching Barrel, Peter worked on Wall Street as an investment banker at Lehman Brothers. In this episode, we discuss the highs and lows of agency life, the importance of team support when things aren't going right, and Peter's lessons learned from running Barrel for 18 years. Welcome back to episode 35 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Peter Kang, who's the co-founder of Barrel and the chairman of Barrel Holdings. Thanks for joining us today, Peter.

Yeah, thanks for having me.

So I've been following you for a while online. I think you have done what very, very few have been able to do in the agency world, and it's been very admirable. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you're just willing to stick it out longer and fight through it. I would love for you to just start by giving quick background on yourself and what you're up to.

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So I— my background, I grew up making websites and, you know, kind of got into it early with, you know, HTML, you know, Photoshop and yeah, really felt, you know, like the possibilities were kind of endless with what you could do on the web. And so I went to school in New York and graduated and then went into finance for a little bit. But even on weekends while I was working in finance, I'd always team up with a friend of mine from college. We'd make websites together. And he and I eventually became co-founders of a web agency. So I decided to— leave finance and go right into making websites for small businesses and whoever would pay us or not even pay us to do websites. And so that was back in 2006. So we're coming up on 18 years of being in business. And so, yeah, lots of resiliency needed to stick it out that long. And yeah, really, Barrel was the agency that we started out with. We did kind of all kinds of websites, you know, web apps, WordPress sites. But around, you know, 2017, we really decided to go all in on Shopify. And so, you know, for the last 7 or so years, we've been very much a Shopify-focused firm.

I feel like you're being a little bit humble here. You're like, we would work a little bit on the weekends. I did my research and you would literally work till 3:00 in the morning at your banking job and then work all night on your side hustle. Yeah, I wasn't going to let you get away without digging a little bit deeper. It was— I mean, we—

It's one of those things where I got a lot of energy out of the work that we did on weekends. So actually, come home 9:00 PM on Fridays, because that's when we got out early from the banking job. I'd actually max out the Seamless credits. You could order Seamless on the corporate credits and actually would get some other people's credits, because Fridays they were going out, so they gave me their credits. Go home with like a bag full of, you know, deli sandwiches, water, whatever. And then just kind of, and then my co-founder Seiwook would, he was still in school at the time. So he'd come down from his dorm and then we'd meet up at my apartment and then we'd jam on sites literally till 6:00 AM. So like it was, and we did this like almost every weekend for about 6 months. And, you know, at that point we know like we're, I was like, okay, as soon as I get my bonus, I'm going to bounce and do this full time.

Did you know before you started the banking job that like that was going to be the end goal, or you kind of went into it eyes wide open, not really sure what the next step was going to be?

Well, so even before I took the banking job, like I knew— so Seiwook and I, we'd been doing a lot of collaborative stuff in college. Like we were in like a cultural club together where we did a lot of things. We had this kind of photo, digital photo, kind of printed delivery business as well. So we did a bunch of things together and like, we made a promise of like, hey, let's find a way to work together, you know, at some point. And so I think we definitely had that goal. And, you know, for me, like, you know, I did want to make some kind of money right outta school, you know, had student loans and stuff like that. So just going into finance, like I was like, okay, like, I do want to see what kind of, you know, if whether I would like it or not, number one. And then number two, like, is this something I could see myself long term? I mean, within like the first few days, I was like, okay, I probably want to do my own thing at some point. So I just, you know, circle the calendar of like, this is when bonuses come out. Like, let's kind of make sure I optimize for that and then get out of here.

So I think there's very few people— a lot of people hear these stories of like the founders who are pulling all-nighters, and then there's very few who actually ever internalize that or live that. I think to be able to do that for 6 months is wild. Number one, like, I, I definitely would say I work more than the average person, but by no means was I doing a banking job and then staying up till 6 AM after doing a banking job for the full week. I think my question for you is, was it a financial goal, or was there something else that like gave you that conviction of like, now's the time to pull the plug? Because it seems like that wasn't sustainable for much longer.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think, um, Part of it, it was all actually like around, you know, 'cause in finance, you know, investment banking, you have like an annual salary. And then, but then like most of your comp comes from the annual bonus. And I knew like, kind of did the math of like, okay, after taxes, I could probably have X amount of dollars that I could live off of and kind of do it more sustainably afterwards. So it was all about like, having that timetable in mind, you know, helped me to kind of pull the all-nighters in 'cause knowing that there was definitely an end date.

And then you leave, you leave Lehman Brothers, you start Barrel. Like, where you're at today, like, looking back, is this where you ever expected to be, or is it like one of those crazy shell-shocked things every time you take a second to reflect on it?

Yeah, I mean, it's of course like, you know, now, yeah, like, you get used to things, and so you're like, oh yeah, no duh. But yeah, looking back, um, I remember even, um, you know, the moment— so we started like with a, you know, I lived in a 3-bedroom kind of, you know, with roommates apartment in Astoria, like really cheap rent. I was paying like $700 for my room. And then, you know, I think we had an extra room that we turned into an office. And so that was like the first Barrel office. And, you know, it would be, you know, I just have 2 desks there. And then Seiwook and I would just work, you know, on stuff there for— and during the week, actually, because Seiwook was still in school, I would just work all by myself in that office, right? And like, at that point, even then I was like, oh cool, like I'm doing something on my own. I feel like I've kind of made it, you know what I mean, at that point.

Freedom.

Freedom. And it was like, yeah, cool, I'm doing my own stuff. And you know, it was kind of, you know, of course like in the early days, like it was really hard to kind of be like, all right, I'm going to make enough to kind of, you know, pay the rent and then, you know, pay the groceries and all those things. But like, you know, like there were projects and, you know, there was momentum. And I remember like fast forward to like, you know, 4 years later, I remember, and this is like, we were really slow to kind of grow. 'Cause like, you know, for the first few years it was Sayuka, myself being pretty much glorified freelancers. But like 4 years later we had an office on 27th Street. Like it had like, you know, 4 people at that point. And we're like, oh cool. Like we could grow to, we could add like 5, 6 more people and we'll be awesome. And I'm like, I remember like moving in and I was like, we'll never leave this place because this is like, this is awesome. It's got everything we need. And like, you know, like, I can't imagine having more than the people we have now. So, and then within like 3, 4 months, you know, we outgrew the office and ended up moving to another one. But yeah, it just, it's funny how quickly things can change.

What's your why? I think there's very few people who stay in the same business for 18 years. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I'd say my why is, you know, just it's, it's more I mean, I love the service aspect of things, of like helping solve problems. A lot of it is like facilitating and being the one to kind of be a resource to help others achieve their goals. And I think that materializes in different ways for me. I mean, obviously through the work that we do with our clients, through just being an employer and helping people kind of on their path to realizing their full potential in their careers. Uh, and then just, you know, in any kind of work I do as a mentor or as a peer, just, you know, just I think wherever I can be a resource and helpful. And, and that's also goes into my writings too. Like I, I try to put out things that I'm like, okay, if this can help somebody, you know, skip a few steps or kind of, you know, get a, get some kind of useful learning. I, I think that's, that's kind of the why is this, it's motivating. It, it, it's, it's something that I feel like, all right, cool. Like I'm making use of my talents and my skill sets and my experience to, to help others.

But I, I do want to shed light on some of the challenges in the agency world because I think to me the grass is always greener on the other side, especially in the world of like, do I build a software company or do I build an agency? And then when you see like a lot of agency owners get cash rich at some point versus like you raise money and you're on a salary until like you're rich overnight, I, I want to dig a little bit deeper for people listening, like into some of the challenges you face. I mean, we just had a conversation before we started here where you talked about like you know, some of the challenges you were going through in the last couple of months. I know it's not all, not all glorious. And to be able to stay afloat and thrive for 18 years is just like wild to me.

Yeah. There's— yeah, agency life, you know, it's not for everyone. There's definitely— it is a roller coaster ride because you can, you can have some really great runs where, you know, like you're winning clients, you're increasing kind of the whatever the retainers might be, if you have a high retainer base, you're adding headcount. So remember that trajectory of going from the 4 people to we grew to 30+ in a matter of less than a year, let's say. And that was super exhilarating, exciting. But at the same time, with that comes additional risks. And it's like at that point, you might have a handful of clients that might have driven the bulk of the revenue. And so now you're beholden to them. In many ways there's a power dynamic you have to navigate with them. And then of course the risk of any of them churning, which can then be a big hit to your revenues. And at that point you still have the cost structure that you've accumulated from hiring people. So just doing that over and over again through different economic periods, conditions, whether it's a bull market or bear market or people are kind of freaked out about spending or others are super aggressive. It's really required. And I think, you know, at a certain point, you know, and Sei-uk and I talk about this a lot, like at a certain point, like we went through so many kind of, you know, whiplashes and kind of the shocks and like, you know, there were times where it was just like we probably didn't handle it the best we could and we got emotional and other things. But like after a certain number of experiences, we found kind of some, level of equilibrium and we were like, oh, we can like, we can kind of withstand this, you know, pain and whatever uncertainty maybe better than others in some ways. Like, because at that point we've seen, we had seen kind of waves of, you know, agency peers kind of come and go, you know, for various reasons. Some might have exited successfully, others might have, you know, kind of wound down their firms. But one thing we realized was like, hey, look, we have each other to lean on and like we, we always know we'll figure a way out. And a lot of times you take the emotion out of it, you kind of look at the problem, be as rational and kind of even-minded as possible. And then you build kind of some level of fortitude through other things, just having good habits, having a good life outside of work, other things like that. And I think just through that, we've found the way to really just continue on and, uh, withstand a lot of the roller coaster rides.

You have a couple battle scars. Yeah, so the podcast is called Turning Pro. Big reason for that is like those moments in your life where you're like, wait, I actually can make this. Like, this was a career-defining moment for me. Like, I'm curious, looking back at what you've gone through, are there any moments that stand out to you as like, this was when I realized that we're gonna make it out on the other side because we're better than those around us?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, in many ways it's even like in the very early days when it was— so there was like a period. Okay, so we had our first office. It was like kind of in Midtown Manhattan. We sublet from this lady who had like a textile kind of you know, kind of business. Uh, and then she had like a back room that we rented out. Uh, one day, like, we showed up and then there was like a notice on the door of like, uh, like, hey, like, you're being evicted because, you know, you hadn't paid rent in like 6 months. And we're like, we've been paying her the rent. And she had not been paying the rent to the landlord. And so, like, you know, we got kicked out. Um, and so, and then we lost the deposit too, because she's like, well, like, I don't know the way. So like, And so we had to scramble and this is an office that we put, like it was our first like legit office. So we put a lot of care and like build out into it. But like we had like basically a few days to just vacate and like, we had to really scramble. And then, and we found, like in that time we had, in the few days we found a, this was even, this is like 2007-ish. So like coworking wasn't really a thing then, but there was one coworking space on 24th Street that we found. It was like a room in the back. We call it the dungeon because there was no sunlight. So like, it was, you know, you go there, it's, you know, it's facing a gutter. And all I remember is there's a taekwondo studio across because we just hear the, hear the kids kind of doing their lessons there. And like, I just remember going to work every day and we used to, you know, pull long hours, but it was, you know, it was dark all day and it was like, but it was heads down. We just like, you know, and actually that period was like where we really ended up kind of winning some of our, our most kind of pivotal clients doing a lot of the work that would pave the way for later. So that was when we did our first e-commerce site. That's where we did our first Shopify site. This is like back when Shopify first came out. That was when we kind of landed— like we landed some key clients in like the clean energy space that became a big growth driver for us. So like, I just remember that period. Of just heads down, like we're in the dungeon, we're just going to grit this out and like work as hard as possible and like just making it through. And then that's, you know, the next office space is much nicer or whatever. But like, I just remember that's where we were. The, the willpower and everything was kind of forged and we knew kind of, okay, if we could withstand this and kind of overcome the shock of the setback we have with our office, like, I think we could do anything.

So you start as this tiny little agency with you and your co-founder just grinding away, and it's now evolved into a holding company. Which I think is so fascinating. Would love to get a little bit better understanding from your perspective on why you wanted to go that route, what value it's brought, and then how you think about constructing that portfolio.

Yeah. So a lot of things, it wasn't intentional in the beginning, so a lot of it just kind of organically happened. So One thing with, you know, when we got to about like 15 years of running Barrel, the client roster wasn't completely focused. So we had, obviously we were shifting to doing more Shopify, but we had legacy clients, you know, non-e-com businesses that, you know, could be nonprofits, financial services, just all over the map. And they were on WordPress and other platforms. And then we even had some Shopify clients that were like, okay, they, kind of the work that we're doing for them is different than kind of the core focus that we want to go after. So when we took a step back, we're like, all right, like, do we clean up our client roster by just kind of letting these clients go and saying, hey, you have to find someone else? Well, we added them all up and it wasn't an insignificant number. So like, we were like, hmm, actually this is— and most of it was recurring, you know, kind of long-term maintenance type of contracts. So, you know, we thought, okay, maybe there's an idea, like another way to play this. And so we decided to spin that out as its own business. And luckily, you know, one of our longtime employees, he, he was interested in taking over this business and working and leading it. So yeah, we, we formed a joint venture with him and, you know, as the co-founder and, you know, that became the genesis for Vaulted Oak, which is our support and maintenance agency focusing primarily on Shopify and WordPress websites. And so we seeded that and then, you know, immediately it was, it was a very, you know, we saw kind of the, the focus and the structure that was very efficient for that kind of work. And we saw that business grow really quickly and they gave us confidence of like, okay, that's cool. Like if you have something that's not a perfect fit for Barrel and, and by the way, Barrel's benefit was now, you know, our team didn't have to worry about these other, clients that didn't fit kind of the Shopify focus so we could go deeper into Shopify. So that, that kind of benefit made us, you know, look for, hey, are there other things that we're doing within Barrel that's not a fit that maybe could be another agency concept? And, and one of the things, so we had been, some of our designers had, you know, embraced Webflow as a, you know, because Webflow, you know, was initially like targeted at designers as a way to kind of, you know, bring their designs to life in a very efficient and like, you know, kind of no-code way, right? And so we were early adopters, did some sites on it, and then, you know, had some lead flow coming from Webflow, which was great. But we're like, well, this is still a distraction from the Shopify focus. And so we thought, okay, maybe there's something there. And at this, you know, coincidentally, I've been talking with, uh, you know, someone, um, who reached me, reached out to me actually because of my, uh, uh, blog and newsletter. Uh, and he and I had been talking, you know, I, he, he was doing some, uh, you know, kind of leading, uh, an agency team at another small agency. But, you know, we started talking and, uh, you know, there was a desire for him to kind of, you know, strike out and do something on his own. And so I was like, hey, maybe we could team up and kind of develop a concept together. Uh, and the Webflow idea was one of the things that were percolating at the time. So we're like, hey, what if we build a Webflow agency together? And that was the genesis of BX Studio, which we launched in 2022. And yeah, I mean, I think it was great timing and we had learned a lot from kind of the Shopify ecosystem of partnerships and just kind of having that good relationship with Shopify. So we brought that mentality to Webflow and it's translated really well. And so we've been able to grow within that ecosystem and just be a, a very focused Webflow agency. So with that, we're like, okay, cool. Like now we have, you know, more than one agency. And so like a holding company structure makes sense. And you know, the, the latest one that we launched last year is a brand design agency that we thought we could see some synergies with the other agencies. Because that was an ask that would come up every now and then. And we thought, okay, if there's a way to do brand design in a fast and efficient way. Let's see what that could look like. And that's where Bolster was born. So with those 4, we have— it's great. We're able to take any kind of conversation that might— when you hear someone have some kind of need, we can traffic them into different agencies. So it's just a wider net for opportunities. And at the same time, they're sharing leads with each other. They're teaming up on projects like Barrel has teamed up with BX on a bunch of projects and BX has sent work to Bolster and Vaulted Oak. So there's a lot of like kind of the shared kind of opportunities. The thing that I'm working on next is how do we cross-pollinate and implement some of the best practices more deeply across all the agencies? 'Cause there are some things that we'll share, systematizing that, creating more playbooks and then making sure everyone's kind of filling the same kind of gaps. I think that's the next stage of evolution. Wow.

That's wild. How do you spend your time?

Yeah. So the big— so right now I'm still CEO of Barrel and I think Barrel's still the largest agency in the portfolio. So there's a lot of work. On the Barrel side to make sure that's operating as effectively and efficiently as possible. But yeah, more and more I think we're— my time is being spent coaching and advising the other agencies. And then there's other— just a lot of it is just seeding the opportunities for the future. So part of it is talent, always looking for, hey, who can be a difference maker for any of our agencies or somebody who we can team up with to maybe incubate and launch another agency. So that's always ongoing, always meeting people and just kind of getting to know them and just it's a long game with that. And then the other part is like just being opportunistic with business opportunities, right? Like maybe there's an agency that already exists that like, you know, the owner's trying to exit or wants to be acquired or something. So that a lot of conversations are happening around that as well. So I say it's a lot of it is just relationship building is, you know, in many ways the highest leverage thing I can do. So a lot of my days, you know, just calls after calls or meeting after meeting to just get to know folks and kind of, you know, connect them with others within our ecosystem and also, you know, just find ways to collaborate with them.

And you've alluded to this a couple of times already, and it's something that I wanted to touch on. But you talk about how you have the blog and how LinkedIn and Twitter has been— both have been very impactful for you. Can you talk about, number one, how you think about like setting time aside and being disciplined with, uh, creating content? And then the second piece is just like the rewards you've seen from doing it, because I think there's probably a lot of people listening to this who love the idea of making content, but like getting started is so uncomfortable that some people find themselves 2 years down the line dreaming about doing it but never just like hit go.

Yeah. It's so, you know, I think the writing practice for me was there, you know, since probably high school, I had like a personal site and I would like upload or like write kind of, you know, these are precursor to blog, late '90s. And I would just put up pages where I had my writings. And then, you know, when WordPress first came around, like I was early adopter and then started blogging, just random stuff, right? Like, you know, this is what I ate, or like, this is some, you know, a vacation I went to. But over time, I think especially as I got more into the agency business, I wanted it to be a place where I could reflect on, hey, like, these are some of the things that are, you know, I'm trying to solve for, or these are some of the things that I've tried that worked or didn't work. And so became a repository for a lot of the learnings and experiences of running an agency business. And I think, you know, slowly but surely, like whether through SEO or just people kind of sharing links with each other, I started getting a bit of a readership, especially among agency folks. And then I decided to do a newsletter where I would, you know, just, and I wanted just super simple structure of like, okay, these are some of the things that I read in the week that might be, you know, that I found helpful or kind of enlightening. And then this is something that I wrote during the week. So I call it, uh, Consume Created. Um, and so, you know, with that, just building a relationship with, you know, an audience. Um, and it's small and like, but it's, it's small, but like it's, it's, it's very focused. It's a lot of like, it's many agency folks. And so, uh, within that space it's been great to, you know, uh, build relationships with a lot of the people that have, um, you know, checked out my content. Um, and then yeah, just in terms of the, the way I've, made time to do it. Usually it's just, you know, it's all about kind of blocking out the time on weekends. And I think the newsletter has been super helpful because, you know, it's, it's, it's just like a ready-made structure where I gotta fill it in with like, you know, I gotta, I have to read something interesting to fill up the consume side. And then I have to like write something to fill up the created side. So like, you know, it's just, it's almost like a template, right? That like, I'm just, you know, having to fill in every week. So, you know, that, that structure has worked well for me. And, you know, I'm going on like maybe it was like 4, 4 years of kind of doing this like every, every week.

And so have you ever missed a week yet?

Not since like November 2019, I think. Actually, it's like 5 years, I guess.

Wow.

Yeah.

So consistency wins. I think a lot of people fail because they don't stay in the game long enough with whatever it is that they're pursuing.

No, I mean, it's— yes, I am obviously like, you know, stuff like Atomic Habits and all those things are like It's true. Like, and it compounds over time because there was a period where like, you know, first 2, 3 years, like, I'm like, no one subscribes to this. And like, you know, I'm just writing it to a void. But then, you know, it starts to really compound quickly once you gain momentum. So yeah, it is about sticking it out and, you know, just, but also I made sure though, like the writing first and foremost was for me because it's like, and that was I think a big motivator for, you know, keeping it going. Because I'm like, look, even if nobody reads this, the fact that I took the time to reflect and write stuff is clarifying and helpful for myself. And that's the, that's number one, you know, reason to write in the first place anyway. And in many ways, like putting it out as a newsletter or LinkedIn post, that's a byproduct of what I'm doing for myself.

What are some non-negotiable habits in your life?

Yeah, I'd say it's, it's definitely Probably fitness is like a big part of life. You know, just, yeah, try to make space for working out almost daily, like if I can, if I'm at home, you know, and just, you know, having a mix of strength and cardio training. I think so that's on the kind of the fitness level. And then, yeah, I mean, I think just, having the time with family, obviously, like, you know, just have 3 young kids and, you know, just making sure there's, yeah, we have, you know, like dinner together as a family, you know, just kind of the shared time on weekends. I think those are things that, you know, very intentional, deliberate about, because I think it's like these, you only kind of have this kind of experience once. And, you know, I want to make sure like, you know, it's not something I'll ever regret.

What is a day? I want you to walk me through a day in the life from like what time you wake up to like when your head hits the pillow. Because I'm, I'm curious with managing all these businesses and having 3 kids and still finding time to write. Like, it's fascinating.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's really, um, it's boring, uh, you know, like if you from the outside, I think it is. So, you know, like usually, you know, up by like 6, 6:15 is just whenever my youngest kind of— you start to hear the cries on the monitor. And then really from like that time until 9 is just getting the kids, you know, as each of them start waking up, it's like making sure they're fed, packing them lunch, dressing them, which is not easy because they're running around. You got to kind of catch them.

How old are they?

5, 3, and 8 months.

Oh, wow. You're really in—

Yeah.

So in build mode right now in that regard, too.

It's hardcore. So this is why I like— Yeah. And you hear like when I work out, is very unorthodox, but like, because of like the wake-up times are so early, like it's literally, it's that. And then, so 9 is when I finally drop off the two older ones at daycare and like I can, and then from then it's like, I do, I try my best to go for like a morning walk. I live on like a really high kind of hill. So like, it's a nice, like you go down and the way up is quite a bit of an incline. So it's good workout there. And then, you know, that gets me kind of ready for the day. And then, you know, starting at like, Usually 9:45, 10 is like when it's, it ends up being like Zoom calls. Usually if I'm working from home from 10 to, you know, 5, maybe with like a few 30-minute slots to, you know, check, catch up on emails. And, you know, and sometimes like I'll, during the week, I'll block out a couple slots, like an hour or so to do some writing, whether that's like a memo about, for something, or for social or anything like that. But 5, 5:30, it's, you know, I got to close my laptop, you know, and then it's family time from there, family dinner. And then, you know, hang out with the kids, you know, clean up. There's lots of cleanup, like 3 boys. So it's like, it's, it is, it is a madhouse. So like there's, there's lots of cleanup. And then, yeah. And then by then it's like, I try to, and then, you know, I'll have a little bit of like wind down time from like 8:15 and then by 9 o'clock I'm like, I have a home gym that I've invested considerable amounts in. Like, so like that's my, you know, happy place. So from 9 to about 10:30, I'm in the gym. That's like, yeah, almost daily. That's where, so it's like late, but the best thing about it is like, Usually there's like a game on. So like that's where I can like, you know, watch like these days NBA playoffs or like, you know, during the football season it's amazing cuz you know, now there's football every, every, almost every day now. Right. So like that's kind of where I can decompress but also get a really good workout in. And then, and then 10:30, yeah, wash up and then kind of, you know, start, I'll read in bed for a bit until I fall asleep. So that's around between 11 to 11:30 is when I go to bed and then it starts over all over again.

I want to talk about just this like hustle culture that we live in where like you obviously have put your time in. Like you didn't just get to where you are by like, you know, working modest hours. But there's also something to be said about like efficiency and process and understanding that like, from what I'm hearing from you, it's like you're really working from like 10 to 5, you know, 10 to 6, and then maybe a little bit of extra time after the kids go to bed. But you're not working like 18-hour days, like skipping meals, skipping workouts, like ruining all these habits. And I know it hasn't been like that and you've kind of earned the place you're in now, but I'm curious what your perspective would be to maybe people listening who feel like they're never working hard enough or not doing enough.

Yeah, you know, so I have a couple of thoughts on that because I do think I work all the time in many ways. So like I'm doing these activities, but like, you know, the, the mind, it's, it is. And I've reflected a lot, wrote about it too. Like it's hard to turn off. 'Cause like even, you know, and you know, obviously like when I'm with my kids too, it's, you know, I catch myself sometimes being like, okay, like you gotta be, you know, you gotta pay attention. Like, but like the mind is, there's always something from the day or like you're looking ahead or, you know, something that is percolating just 'cause of you've kind of internalized different kinds of information. So I say like, you know, there's an element that like, The 8 hours or so is like when, when a lot of the, some of the activities just happen in the workday, but like a lot of work actually, the valuable stuff probably happens outside of those hours. So, you know, and even on weekends too. And that's, that's where I think a lot of the long-term kind of strategic thinking happens. And like, you know, I might be like, oh my God, like all the things, all the meetings I took during the week, I'm like, oh, that's how these pieces can connect together. And then, you know, I kind of might like pull out a notebook and just write down some ideas about like, okay, like this is what I'm gonna kind of prioritize, think about going to next week. So I say, but what I've learned over my career is, yeah, like I think, you know, in the past I'd equate like productivity with like time in the office, right? Or like time in front of a computer. But over time I'm like, okay, you like that, there's no kind of correlation between like, you know, the effectiveness of that work and like, you know, how much time I'm actually, you know, in front of my monitor. It's actually more about what's the output and like, what is, you know, what are the— this is all about kind of, you know, leverage and like, you know, 80/20 rule. Like, what is really the highest impact stuff I could be doing? And being able to parse that from the filler stuff and like trying to minimize the filler stuff as much as possible. So I think I think kids, having kids has been a great like forcing function for that. 'Cause I'm like, look, like they're, you know, like if I still wanna, you know, spend time with the kids, you know, have the time to work out and to myself to do other things, like gotta make trade-offs and like, or like, you know, find, you know, smarter ways to work. And I think that's been, you know, an evolution, but like, you know, now it's been, you know, 5+ years that I've, you know, been a parent. So like, I think that's been, you know, it's been a constantly evolving process. But like, I work, I look at how I work now versus how I worked, like, you know, back in, you know, 2017, '18, even then, like, like, wow, like, I rather prefer the way I work now.

I actually tweeted about this last week where when I think about the concept of like, I'm grinding right now, it's very much quantified by the mindshare that's being consumed. With thoughts. It's not about the number of hours that I'm actually spending, like, sitting at my computer, because there's certain weeks where it's just, like, way more mentally exhausting. And I get to the end of the week and I'm just like, oh my God, that was— so many decisions were made, like, so much happened. But not necessarily was I at my laptop from 7:00 a.m. to 12:00 a.m. So I think I was someone who was guilty of this because I gave up my corporate job 12 hours before my first day and never actually went. But I would see all my friends who were, like, investment bankers, like, oh, I just put in 120 hours this week. Yeah. And in my mind, every day I had this insecurity that I wasn't working hard enough. And I feel like I just finally turned a corner, like, a couple months ago, where I'm like, you know what, it's not about how many hours I'm spending on my laptop. Like, this consumes my life, I know that it does. It's okay if some of that work is not quantified in the form of, like, how many hours are you sitting there typing something. But, like, the walks, the workouts, where you're just, like, solving problems in your head that you didn't have time to solve because you're on so many calls. It's like one-to-one to one-to-one, and then you never actually had a chance to like reflect on what you even discussed with someone. And so it's been like a very hard like frame of thinking for me to get out of, which is why it's, it's like really good to hear that from someone who, you know, if you can find time to like have 3 kids, still get your workout in, and make progress with your business, like there's probably a lot of excuses being made, or just like ways that people can make like incremental improvements.

Yeah, you know, it's, uh The one thing I always try to put in perspective is you want to create virtuous cycles in life. And so, part of what makes you more effective at work is having high energy, right? And then like a very positive energy, right? And like, so you have to think about, okay, where does that come from? And most likely it's come from other inputs where it's like, you have to being physically fit, getting good sleep, good sleep, good diet, and then also, you know, having good relationships, whether it's friends and family, like those things are gonna feed into you having high energy at work. And so like, if you kind of put that into context, you're like, okay, like you actually need to make time. If you want the most out of your work, you need to have these other bases covered. And so I think that was a learning that just took like, you know, a long time for me to grasp. And but like once I did, I was like, okay, like it's so easy to start making the trade-offs of like, okay, like I don't want to— I want to stay late. I don't want to be, you know, drinking a ton of alcohol. You know, I don't want to be, you know, doing these things that kind of seem like it's relaxing, but it's not really energizing. So you just end up cutting out those things.

One other thing I want to touch on, because I know we're almost out of time here, but I saw that you wore a mouth tape every day in 2023.

Yeah. And now too, I've not stopped. Yeah.

So can you speak to that? Yeah, you know, I tried it one, one day and it actually worked. I, I got like a hostage tape gifted to me.

Okay.

And I tried it for one day and it worked. And I don't actually have a reason why I didn't continue doing it, but I, I think maybe you can get me over the edge because I know that it's been a routine of yours for a long time now.

Yeah, no, I, uh, so what was that? There's a, the book, uh, Breath, I think was it. Um, but, uh, you know, just reading kind of about, um, you know, the, the physical impact of like, uh when you go to bed and if you breathe with your mouth, like there's a lot of negative impact that could have on your health. And, you know, I think I've always had issues, I think, with like, what do you call it, like having— getting sore throat sometimes because your mouth gets dried if you mouth breathe when you're sleeping. And so when I read this, I was like, you know, it's worth trying because I, you know, I like— especially during the winters, I'm like, man, I always— there's always like a few weeks in the winter where I get a sore throat and it sucks. So I was like, you know what, I'm just going to try the mouth tape, even if it's uncomfortable at first. And then you have to really learn to kind of control the breathing through the nose. And sometimes even when your nose is stuffed, you can push through that. So after the first few months, I started in the winter and I was like, wow, I don't have that sore throat thing happening anymore. It was amazing. Like, so I was like, okay, this is, this is a reason for me to just keep at it. And like, and then, you know, I use, I wear a Whoop, so like I was able to kind of see some of the impact there on like sleep quality as well. I was like, okay, like I think this is actually a difference. Has it made, I mean, not, not huge, but like, uh, there's, there's certain aspects of like, um, uh, the sleep efficiency went up, uh, a bit. Uh, so, and then I think, um, yeah, like, yeah, HRV and stuff that, that's impacted by some other things as well. But, um, Yeah, for the most part, like, wake events were less as well. So I was like, all right, this is good. Like, I think there's enough of a signal for me to continue. And I'm like, you know, it's not a— like, it's one of those things I don't even think about now. Like, before, I have a— I, I use a 3M, like, medical tape. Uh, I buy, like, you know, a 10-pack of those, and then it's just, you know, um, just rip a piece and then put over my mouth. And every morning, that's, that's— yeah, I mean, every night, it's just a habit I don't even think about anymore.

I love that. I have one more question for you because I know we're at time here. Um, If you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be and why?

Yeah, I think it would be, Joe, just take the time to read more. Like, because I think that was probably the biggest unlock for me. And, you know, it's one of those things I think it's general enough, but like I'd say, hey, just you know, you can unlock and, you know, save yourself a lot of grief by, you know, kind of taking the time to read books and, you know, kind of learn the lessons there. There are some books that people recommended to me like 10, 15 years ago that I didn't pick up until much later. And I'm like, wow, why was I so resistant at that point? Because, you know, they would have saved me a lot of, you know, it would have unlocked a lot of concepts, ideas, and kind of learnings that, you know, I didn't have to learn the hard way.

What's the number one book you'd recommend?

Number one book? I mean, it's what I read. So I'm very— it's very context dependent a lot of times. But, you know, I'd say, you know, for, for folks in the agency space, maybe that's, that's one that I, you know, I can be very specific on. I love like Managing the Professional Services Firm by David Meister. It's a It's a classic. I mean, I think, you know, he was mostly addressing kind of the professional services firms like, you know, lawyers, consultants, and accountants. But like so many lessons in there, you realize it's like this business model applies to kind of the digital agencies, you know, marketing agencies and whoever else. And it's been a timeless book that I've referenced over and over again and have talked to a lot of other agency folks about.

Awesome. Well, I appreciate you making the time today. If you want to just look at the camera and let everyone know where they can find you and what you're working on.

Yeah. So you can find me on my website, peterkang.com. And you can also look up Barrel Holdings and check us out and look at all our agencies there.

Awesome.