#036: Jacklyn Dallas - Tactics to Scale YouTube to 200K+ Subscribers

To be successful on YouTube, you need something that's unbelievable, whether it be like the way you shoot the video or it's like your knowledge or your life experience. Like you have to have something. And I think everyone has like an unfair advantage, like something that makes them them. But otherwise there's just too many people making videos and there's no way to stand out.

Jacqueline Dallas is the founder and CEO of Nothing But Tech, one of the fastest growing media companies in the world that focuses on consumer tech trends. As the platform's audience has grown, Jacqueline has hosted one-on-one interviews with tech giants like Google's CEO Sundar Pichai. In this episode, we get an inside look at Jacqueline's content workflow, how creators and founders can find their unique voices, and her personal tactics to blend creativity and entrepreneurship. Welcome back to episode 36 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Jacqueline Dallas, a YouTuber.

Nice.

I gave her the opportunity to decide on the intro. I know it's way more than that, but we'll start there. Thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, I'm so excited to be on. Thanks for having me.

I want to start by just talking about how we even ended up here.

Yeah. Okay. So I saw your podcast on Twitter and I thought you were such a good interviewer that I like DM'd you. I think I was like, love the podcast. And you're like, you should come on.

Well, I appreciate that. It makes it sound like I was fishing for a compliment, but that totally wasn't the case. The point I was getting at is I'm a huge proponent of like, if you see something, say something. And like, just giving a compliment with no expectation in return can turn into magical things. And I'm guessing you've done this many times over based on the fact that you DM me just to say that you like the podcast.

Yeah, I feel like I've met so many of my closest friends by just like seeing their work online and being like, hey, love this. And they're like, let's get coffee. And then you just like become friends with people because no one really does it. Like, it's— I've actually heard you talk about on the podcast before, and I think it's so true because a lot of people DM people and immediately ask for like a favor or something. And that's kind of an ick. Like, you don't even know them and you don't even know if you're going to like them. Whereas if you're just like DM and you're like, hey, I love your work and you just tell people, it like makes them feel better.

Especially, especially if as you start to go up in the ranks as an individual, get more successful, it's even more like unlikely that if someone just DMs you to ask for something that you're even going to want to take time out of your day to respond to it.

Fair. Yeah. And also like you don't— I feel like this is like unrelated to like just making friends, but one of the ways I like find that I hire people the most is if they send something that they've already done. And I used to do this a lot too. So like a thumbnail designer reached out to me recently and instead of being like, hey, I'll design thumbnails, he was like, I designed 3. If you like them, we can do more. I was like, damn, like that, you already now know the quality of the work. You're so much more likely to say yes.

I love that. I think, yeah, recently I've been getting DMs of all shapes and sizes and there's just like such a large percentage that I just put in this bucket of like, no, especially on Twitter. Yeah, there's this craze where everyone thinks they can be your like automated outbound DMing service provider.

Crazy niche. Also, like, how many people are hiring for that?

It's not even about hiring. They're like pitching me to become a client. I'm like, can you stop? Like, uh, crowding my inbox with just like these spam messages.

You've opened DMs?

No.

Okay, so it's people you follow then?

No, sorry, I— no, you have like the filter where you can like look at— isn't it like I don't have that on mine— requests? Or maybe that's just Instagram.

Yeah, definitely Instagram has that, and the Instagram requests are wild.

You know what, hold on, I want to look actually. Okay, what it—

I wonder, you probably have it. I turned off DMs from people.

Yeah, see, no, it's message requests.

Oh, I don't think I have that online.

So message request 10 people you may know. So the only way that they'll land in my— wait, what? How's that possible?

That's a cool feature.

See, so like it's people that I don't follow. Okay, then you can see they're like B2B success, uh, like I have a Loom video that I want to send you, like, can I help you build a landing page?

The Loom videos also suss me out because you have no idea what's in them.

Also true.

And I don't want to click on a random video and then like, yeah, no.

Um, okay, well, I love— I know we were like having a 30-minute conversation before we hit record, so I think this is gonna be fun, but maybe just start for those listening and give them a little bit background of what you're up to?

Yeah, so I started a YouTube channel when I was 13. Um, I was always helping my grandma with like tech, and I was sending her like these short little videos like how to reset an email password. Um, fell in love with that, and I was watching a lot of like Casey Neistat, Marques Brownlee, like the OG amazing creators. Um, and I had like previous YouTube channels, like I did like a singing cover channel before, since privated. Um, and I just started posting and like fell in love with it. So now it's been like 9 years, I'm 22 now. Um, it's a lot of fun, it's So now the mission is like, can we bring like the most amount of people into the world of tech? Like I love tech so much and I feel like it's in every part of life. So can we excite people and like energize about the possibilities of what tech can do for them?

I want you to brag about yourself a little bit. You can give people more about like the niche you're in and what kind of content you're making.

Okay, yeah, so it's been a lot of real daily reviews, so like the latest products and then interviews. Like I interviewed Sundar Pichai, who's the CEO of Google recently. And then I also do like a ton of guest lecturing at colleges. So recently like MIT, Harvard, Cornell, like the bigger colleges that have media, but then they wanna figure out how to do like social media. And then we also sign on like our biggest clients are like these sponsors of companies that I wouldn't review, but are very techie and like need people to know about that. So for example, I was in Seattle last week with AT&T where we went to, they actually have a wild room there. It's like a secret chamber. And when you walk in, it kills all servers on your phone. So they can replicate like any type of service situation, like an earthquake, a natural disaster. And that's how they test all the products.

Wow.

Which is really cool. So those are like our bigger clients where we'll sign like a long-term partnership with them to create videos around what they're doing.

I want to dig deeper into the college piece of this because in my mind I'm laughing like, do you just show up to these school and these schools and tell everyone like the Harvard degree is not going to be the thing that's going to teach you how to do social media?

No, it's more so like I'm— I like, okay, so I went to MIT last week and I was like blown away. Like they were all obviously so smart. And so I feel like I learned equally as much, but it's more so like a supplementary lecture where it's like you learned all like the practical skills of business or coding or whatever. But even if you never want to become a YouTuber, here's how to build a personal brand online. Because I feel like if 10 people watch your videos, like those still could be 10 people that change your life. You just don't know.

I have been a huge proponent of this. I would say probably on a relative basis of like people building software companies, I probably am in the upper echelon of the amount of video content that I put out.

I think you're one of the only ones, honestly.

Maybe. I mean, also the fact that I have a studio in my living room.

Yeah. And it's very professional. 3 cameras, soft boxes.

I appreciate that. But to me, the point that you just made, it resonates so deeply. We're like putting anything out online, you just increase your surface area of one person that can change your life seeing that. I think the problem is that people think that other people care way more about their content or them as an individual than they do. So like the scariest thing for content is like that first video that gets 6 views.

Yeah, 100%. Because you like, you're probably going to suck in the beginning. So like your ambition for what you want the video to be like and then what it actually is like is so misaligned at the start that I feel like people are really afraid of getting judged, but no one cares. And also I think anyone that's actually creating content respects anyone for trying.

100%. And I think the other piece of it too that I learned, at least from like the short journey that I've had with content, is people will— if people think you're weird or crazy for doing it, they're probably not your people, number one.

So true.

And then the second piece of it is that people think you're crazy until that overnight hap— like, success happens, and then you're all of a sudden not crazy.

100%. They were like, oh my God, you're amazing. Yeah, I think about this a lot because, like, if I'm working at like 3 AM and I text a friend, I don't want the response to be like, you should go to bed. I want them to be like, let's go, like, what are you working on? And I feel like that's like a really good indication of, like, what your values are. So same thing if you're, like, posting content and it sucks, like the right type of people will be like, keep going, like, this is awesome.

How would you say your social circles have evolved as like you've evolved as a creator and maybe have like gotten a little bit more traction online?

Yeah, um, I'm so lucky that when I started, I became friends with like all the tech YouTubers kind of right away because all the brands will do like really big events in person. So you're seeing like the same 20 people like multiple times a week sometimes. Um, so I became like super close with like all these people that I loved and admired, and that was a really cool experience, and that helped a lot because I started YouTube in, it was like 2016 and that was like second wave, but it was still early that like nothing was defined yet on how to monetize it, like how to build an audience community. And so I learned a lot. I'm still in. And then probably like 2 years ago I was added to like a bunch of different group chats, like some of like the biggest creators in the world. And that was a huge unlock because we talked about this before, like just being around people that are doing it makes it seem a lot more attainable. And it also like you learn, I feel like anything, any output in life is just defined by the input, right? So it's like, if they have the result, it's just the habits that they're doing. And so you can learn a lot about those habits by being around them.

Who's your favorite YouTuber? Who's the one you envy?

Of all time?

Yeah.

Ooh, okay, well, I'm really good friends with him now, but I think Casey Neistat is like the best storyteller of all time. Um, Marques Brownlee, also love. Recent YouTuber that I love, Cleo Abram. She's a video journalist doing like tech stuff.

I don't know her.

Unbelievable. Like, you would love her. She worked at Fox and then just quit and started her company called Huge If True. So it's like, what would the world look like if these science and tech things happened? Which is so cool.

That's fascinating. I'm curious to know, like, Casey's a great example. I mean, he is obviously one of the most well-respected people in the game, but like, what would you say are the biggest takeaways you took from what he was able to do?

Ooh, okay. He talks about a lot that most creators like don't have patience. And so like, just 'cause it doesn't work today doesn't mean it's never gonna work. And I think a lot of people quit before the result. Like, I think most times in life with success, it's like, an all is lost moment before it all comes together. And it's like pushing through that trough of like, it sucks. And then also he like puts the story above everything else. So it's like the shots matter, but ultimately it's like, what feeling is he trying to give the viewer? And he is also just like one of the most dedicated people I know. Like he did 800 videos.

He's all in. There's no other way to describe it. I actually, I feel like I've said this on probably almost every podcast we've done so far at least once, which is that most people who fail They fail because they just don't stay in the game long enough.

Oh, I love that. Fully agree. Yeah, because like everyone starts out at zero on YouTube and like entrepreneurship in general, and it's like the way that you get from zero to one is by showing up every day and putting in the reps and learning.

And there's people out there like Sam Sulek is like a great example where it's like an iPhone and he just like goes to the gym and talks about it when he's doing it. The barrier to entry is very low at this point. And so I always think that there's enough people in the world and like there's enough internet kids out there.

Yeah.

That you will find some audience of people who are attracted to like whatever it is that you're doing. And I think my friend JT Barnett talks about this a bunch.

Yeah.

Which is like he'd rather have 1,000 subscribers on his YouTube channel.

Okay.

Than 10,000 if it's like 1,000 loyal fans who are like the people who will show up no matter what he does or where he is. And I think the problem is that the vanity metrics are like the things that people chase out of the gate if they're not really in love with the game that they're playing.

Totally agree.

And that's like where they fall off.

Totally. I agree with that. Like if you don't have the bigger mission, then it will, the times where it's hard, you won't have anything to fall back on. Whereas if you're like, I make videos 'cause I wanna make people feel like inspired about tech. If a video gets 1,000 views, so there's 1,000 people that feel inspired about tech, I'm still gonna feel like, all right, we didn't accomplish a mission yet, but like that's on the right track. But the Sam Sulek thing is interesting because he doesn't have unbelievable video quality, but what's unbelievable is his physique. And so I think like to be successful on YouTube, you need something that's unbelievable, whether it be like the way you shoot the video or it's like your knowledge or your life experience. Like you have to have something. And I think everyone has like an unfair advantage, like something that makes them them. But otherwise there's just too many people making videos and there's no way to stand out.

My best— one of my favorite quotes of all time is make your A's A pluses and find someone else to do your C's for you.

Oh, I love that quote.

And I think that's like leaning into your superpowers and finding that thing that makes you great. Um, I look, I, I, maybe it's his physique, or I also think there's just an element of like how raw he is.

True.

It's like he just doesn't care. That's true too, that it's not like, you know, and I'm guilty of this, like the first YouTube video I ever put out, we had 21 brand sponsors and a 17-person production team, and it was obnoxious, honestly.

That's cool though.

Actually, you might not be able to see it behind that light right there is the, the map of the, uh, pretty sick video, the race that we did. So like, it was cool. But then again, it's like you didn't need all that equipment and all those people. And it was like an expensive learning experience. But nonetheless, I realize that you have to figure out what your why is and like why you're doing it. Also recognize that like other people are attracted to things that you maybe don't realize, right? Like, like Sam probably has people who are attracted to his physique, but probably other people who really appreciate how raw he is and some who probably just appreciate the story that he's telling. Like what Casey talks about is just like the story over everything.

Totally. Yeah. And people are like willing to like get on board with your mission even if they have no interest in it. It's like, it's infectious to watch someone talk about something that they're so passionate about, even if you're not. Like, I could care less about like a certain sport, but if I'm talking to someone that's like the biggest fan in the world of that, I'm suddenly going to love whatever the sport is. So I feel like, yeah, like leaning into whatever you're like actually passionate about is probably number one because you can't—

I also think another important piece of that is you can't hide. Like people can see through like putting on a front. At least in the long run.

Yes.

You're trying to make videos about something you're not actually passionate about.

Totally. People can see it. And also, like, it takes a while to become successful. Like, you're probably going to hate it and quit before you hit the traction. But if you're like— so when I started YouTube, I remember I think it took like a year to hit like 3,000 subscribers. But I hit like 6 subscribers. I had like thought I had made it. Like, I was so excited.

You did make it.

Yeah. And I like printed out like a list of their names, like gave it to my parents and I was like, guys, like 6 people. And so I think it's like making the small wins feel big too is so important because that's like what builds momentum.

Do you find yourself still doing that today, even though you've like obviously found some amazing success?

Yeah, because I feel like we're at 1% of where I wanted to go. So like now it's like, I feel like it was kind of what we talked about earlier, like who you're around kind of normalizes things. So it's being around like these creators that are doing amazing things has made it so like I always wanted that, but even more so now I can kind of see the steps to get there.

Do you think there's any negative sides to that where you're always around super successful people that you might get stuck like comparing yourself as like in terms of Why am I here, not there yet? Or do you have a really good self— so I guess to, to add on to that, like, what is your self-talk in situations like that to avoid maybe getting discouraged, but more so inspired by people who are like further along than you, whatever like that means? It's all perception.

I feel like for like motivation, like, you can kind of get motivated by like two different things. So like the negative motivation is like not feeling like you're good enough, and like you push yourself to do more and more to like make yourself feel confident. And like the positive motivation is like, you believe in yourself and you have people in your life that believe in you that tell you you can do more. So then you push yourself to do that. Ideally you're motivated by that most of the time. 'Cause like, I think that that's like the motivation that like, I would never wanna be, I guess, fueled by like, like trying to prove people wrong. Like I'd rather try to prove people right. Of course there are like times where you're like, God, like they're so much better than I am at like, why can't I write like that? Like I've been around creators where we'll like experience the same exact event and then the hook that they'll come up with it for it is like so brilliant. I'm like, I never would have thought of that. Like, I want to learn how to get better at that. Um, but I think that I've learned in life, just being around people and seeing people get better over time, like everything is kind of learnable. And it's just like, are you willing to like put in the 1,000 hours? Like none of us are born inherently like amazing at writing a YouTube video. Like you learn it over time.

Do you have any sort of like strategies that you use, whether it's like a think tank with some of your creative friends or your process of like iterating through different hooks? Like, what is— what have been like the key pillars in terms of your process to consistently put out high-quality content?

Yeah, definitely Think Tank. I also have a creative strategist on the team who's like brilliant. And then on YouTube, there's like this outlier theory where it's like you look at videos that are performing better than average on other people's channels. So like, let's say that you like went on— you like looked at like all the podcasts in your niche. You would look at whatever guests they had on that led to the most views. And then that's a good indication that that type of video is appealing to a broad audience. And then you can kind of remake it and put your own spin on it. So like MrBeast says this all the time. It's like video from 10 years ago will get like 100 million views from a random channel and then he'll make it a million times better. So that's really helpful. Like, you don't have to reinvent the wheel, just like show it to a new group of people is a quote that I really like. And then I'm in a group chat with like a bunch of YouTubers that I'll like base ideas off of. And then I also have a Discord community for like probably the most dedicated MBT people and I'll ask them like what they want to see.

I feel like it all comes down to obsession.

Agree.

I can just like hear you talk about this, like you're obsessed with YouTube.

100%.

Yeah, like you— it radiates. Like it's so obvious. You have the biggest smile on your face just like talking about it.

Yeah, I think like in most things in life, right, you got to be like in love with it in order to actually like give it your all.

And like one of my friends gave me this quote and I love it. It's either you're— you're either— it's you're in or you're in the way.

Oh, that's dope. I really like that.

And I like— every time now I'm in a situation, like it just plays in the back of my head where it's like you can just tell if someone's actually passionate about it and are they just causing problems? Are they actually like really, really doing the thing?

I love that. Yeah. Because it's like when someone genuinely like has a goal and then is going after it, like even if it's in a completely different realm, it's so inspiring to be around. Like the mindset. There's a Kobe Bryant quote where he's like, study like people in like different industries that have like achieved like great things. Because even though it's a completely different industry, like the mindset and like the work ethic will be the same.

What do you think are the 3 most common traits of high performers?

Ooh, okay. I know there's an Alex Hormozi video about it, but I think like if we were like more wholesome spin and not do it like based on insecurity, I would say I would say, um, people that like believed in them early on. So like they have like self-belief, um, really, really hard work ethic, and then like self-discipline to like put off immediate, um, like satisfaction, like in the moment, to like go for like, like, uh, he says a lot like trade what you want now for what you want the most. And I think like, oh, I like that. Yeah, I like that too. And like ideally like work is fun, but there are for sure times like I just edited on a red-eye last night, like it was actually fun in the moment, but then it was like a rough day the next day to go on no sleep. But I think like that leads to the greater goal. So having the ability to put off like sometimes what you want in that second for what you want more.

Do you edit all your own videos?

I just hired an editor like semi-recently and he's unbelievable. For the first like 395 videos, so like 8 years, I edited all of them and I loved it, but I was like pulling an all-nighter every single week and I was like looking at it from an audience and business standpoint and just being like, that is not the highest ROI thing. Like, I'm happy to pull an all-nighter, but it should be for something that only I can do. Versus like my editor Scott is like unbelievable and like actually more talented than I am at editing. So it elevates videos and we're still like super involved. We use it, you know, the software Frame.io. Of course. Okay, love Frame. So we use that so I can like go through.

You know, any people who've ever put out like a YouTube video that don't know what Frame is, I feel like some people are shocked, like they're using like Google Drive, which then is like tough because then you have to like handwrite like Google Drive to edit.

Oh no, to like upload videos for revisions.

Yeah. So I'm saying like annotations and things like that.

And they're like, then they're just like handwriting. Like, dude, like timestamp it on Frame. So much better.

Yeah, no, that's, that's how you guys do it. Yeah, that's why I was like, I, I'm like trying to think of the process of people who don't use that who still put out videos.

Yeah, because I've worked with editors before and they'll like send it on Drive. I'm like, that sucks for the editor now because then they have to like hand go through and like find the timestamp you're talking about versus like Frame for anyone that doesn't know, it like you can write at the timestamp and then it will like sync to Premiere and show you on the timeline.

What are your thoughts on YouTubers or content creators in general who just like don't edit their own content?

Ooh, okay. So this is interesting 'cause pre having an editor, I was kind of like, I think like the most pure form of the art is editing yourself. And I still honestly believe that, like I edited the last video and like there are certain choices that I made in that video that probably just made it feel like more like how I experienced the event. But then the other side, like I think it would be insane to think that you're the most creative person in the world. And so it's kind of like having a co-founder for a company. Like they add a complimentary skillset where like they'll think about things differently. And oftentimes your editor isn't at the place that you're filming, so they can experience it how a viewer would versus like you're there. So, you know, all the— like I interviewed the CEO of Humane recently and I spent like 2 hours with her before the interview. So I really, really liked her going into the interview, but no one else online had that context yet. And like they had a pretty like bad launch. And so a lot of people were like not a fan of the company. So when I was talking to my editor, I was like, it's really important that we like set up the story so the viewer feels the way I felt in that moment. So how do we do that? Because he hasn't been there yet, so he can watch the interview and be like, we're not there yet, are we there? Um, so I think it helps a lot as long as you're involved. Like, it's like a little disheartening to me if like a creator is like completely uninvolved in the edit. But I think also like every creator has a different reason why people watch. Like, no one watches Alex because he edits the videos. We watch Alex because like his knowledge is really there.

So yeah, 100%. I mean, look, we only put out a couple videos on the Birthday Series channel, but like I the thought of like sitting and like editing set microseconds just like isn't exciting to me. I very much am like, I was controlling over the story that was told.

Yep.

But I didn't want to be the one actually sitting there doing the editing because to your point, like, I don't think it was the highest ROI use of my time.

Yeah.

Like, I wanted to maximize the things I'm good at, and I'm just not someone to do that. Like, when I, uh, years ago I wanted to start a company like not the one I'm working on now, like years ago.

Okay.

And I didn't have the money to like hire an engineer and didn't know how to code and couldn't like find a technical co-founder.

Okay.

So I moved to Silicon Valley and did a coding bootcamp for 4 months.

Wow. Good for you.

And after I was like, I hate this. Like, I'm not— I'm never— I don't want to be an engineer. And I found that like it's a lot easier to figure out the things you don't like than the things you do like. And it was a great experience for me because I did learn a lot and I can speak the language more than your average non-technical person. But I also very quickly realized that there was not a career for me in software engineering.

That's a pretty high agency move, though, to be like, I don't have a technical co-founder. I'm going to go and move my life and learn the skill.

Yeah, I think a lot of things I've done, and you would probably agree with this, but a lot of the things you're able to accomplish, you look back and realize that you're like being naive is half the reason you even did it.

Totally agree. Yeah. If you knew how hard it would be, you wouldn't do it.

My example was the 131-mile run that we did. Yeah. If I realized actually what was needed before I, like, jumped into committing to doing it.

Yeah.

I don't think I would have ever done that.

100%. Yeah, you almost like don't want to know all the things that are going to go wrong because you also won't know all the things that are going to go right. So like you need to go in with just like this relentless optimism and then you'll figure it out along the way.

Yeah, being willing to solve problems and eat a lot of shit along the way is also important.

Totally agree.

Um, I'm curious to talk a little bit about like the business opportunities that have come from YouTube. I know you've talked about this before where I think there's a misconception that like YouTubers all get rich from AdSense.

Oh yeah, 100%. So the way that the YouTube business model works is fascinating because it's like super niche dependent. And I feel like the best creators are like creators that are both entrepreneurs and creators. Like, super rare, because when someone's really creative, they tend to be like really about the art and then not about the entrepreneurship. But I think entrepreneurship is creative inherently. So like, if you're good at both, you can create an actual like media company that has staying power. Like, um, you know the podcast Call Her Daddy? Alex Cooper. Okay, like, I think she's a brilliant entrepreneur, also brilliant creative. Like, I think she's gonna create like the— like the next generation Barstool. I really believe.

Unwell. Yeah, I mean, getting Alex Earle involved in that and Harry Jowsey, and she's like giving them creative direction. So crazy.

The episodes were really good. Um, and then they can all collab. Like, it's just so smart. It's like when someone does the business right, it looks easy, but like in reality that was probably very hard to figure out that that was the right move to make and like find the creatives. Um, she's unbelievable. But yeah, so I feel like her monetization model was signing a deal with Spotify for $60 million. For other creators— yeah, pretty good, casual 3 years. Um, other creators, it would be like yearly. Like, one of my really good friends is a guy named Ali Abdaal who runs a company called Part-Time YouTuber Academy where they teach people how to be creators. That's just like $5 million a year, um, and it's only growing. And then YouTube is like maybe $1 million or $2 million on top of that. Um, so for me personally, it's like 70 to 80% brand deals. And then, uh, so that would be like the AT&T deal I just talked about, or Qualcomm, like these really big tech companies that want to reach Gen Z and like have a lot of cash flow but not necessarily a lot of like brand affinity. Or if they have both those things, they just want to like create an interesting project, because I'm probably like one of the youngest YouTubers, um, in the tech space, um, and a lot of my audience like skews Gen Z and like optimistic. And I feel like that is a lot like in line with like innovative tech companies. And then like public speaking and licensing stuff.

But you've been building since you like— you were selling bracelets when you were a kid.

Wow, that's crazy. I've never mentioned that. So the research is on par. Yeah. So the first ever thing I did when I was like 8 was like going door to door and like knocking on people's doors with like my best friend to like sell bracelets for the ASPCA.

I mean, that you had that entrepreneurial gene from a young age and then it's just like figuring out how you marry the content piece with the business piece.

Totally. Because at the same time I was doing like iMovie movies, like fake blood. So I always like love both. Very cringe. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I feel like once you have like a little win with that and you realize like that you can like just create— like, I feel like the world is like so meshable to what you want to do. It's like they're— everything that exists right now is just other people have made those rules. Like, you can totally just change the path. Um, and I think YouTube is like the ticket to the extraordinary. Like, none of the things I have done right now I think I would have been able to do without YouTube.

I'm fascinated by the difference in channels or creators when they go from because this is something that I did where like you have some who go from being a creator to figuring out they can also become an entrepreneur and there's businesses waiting for them on the other side of that distribution.

Yeah.

And then there's some people who like have operating experience on the business side who are like, I want to become a creator.

Yeah.

So like that, I came from that realm.

Okay.

You're like operator first, operator first, content second.

Yep.

And so like I think I thought about it like a startup on day one.

Yep.

Versus just like I'm creative, I'm just like, you know, walking around thinking of ideas and just like doing it and not actually thinking about implications.

Yep.

I'm curious to get your perspective on just that concept because I think there's a lot of positives, but probably a ton of negatives too. Yeah, I can speak from my experience being the one going from business to creator.

Okay. Yeah, tell me that first.

I think the first thing is that I like overprocessed a lot of things and struggled to just like ship things because I wanted everything to be so meticulous. I'm like, wait, no one's even like watching or listening. Like, stop. Just like go and do it, right?

Yeah.

I think the second piece of it is that I always wanted things to be like over the top. Where it would— like, the first video.

Yep.

It was like we had a 17-person production team for our first video.

I think that's so cool.

It's like there's many YouTubers who will go their entire life and never have like more than like one person.

True.

Or a tripod.

Yep.

Um, and so I think because I, I thought about it, I really enjoy the act of doing the creation. Like, I think it's so fun. But because I know what it could possibly be if you have the distribution to build those like CPG brands and venture funds and whatever. I think like starting the channel with that in the back of your head can actually be limiting in some ways because you're thinking about like, I think it's good to know what the end of the script looks like, but at the same time there's something beautiful about like making the art just for like what it is and like let the wind kind of take you where you go. So I think to synthesize that, it's all to say that in some instances I think overthinking and over-processing, because I've had experience building businesses, was actually a detriment to like velocity of just creating.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. I think both have their pros and cons. Like, if you're an operator first, then you make content, like what you're saying, then you're like really good at showing up every day and like not expecting the result right away. I think a lot of creators like don't have that mindset because they haven't created a company yet where they know that it like fails a lot before it succeeds. Um, if you're a creator first and you don't have the operational experience, I think being a creator is really rare. Like, or I think being an incredible creator is rare, like having like the best ideas and like being very in touch with human psychology. So if you have that, you probably just need a partner with a really, really good operator that can help you. The ideal is that you have both. If you have both, you don't have to be the best at either because you can find people that help you on both sides. But you can probably grow the business to a certain level by just having both. One of my really good friends, this guy named Jack Gordon, who is, I think, going to be like one of the biggest creators in the next few years, super, super talented. He's telling me some of his ideas. His last video this week was trapping 25 couples in a room or ex-couples. And seeing if they got back together. And yeah, wild concept.

Like, put like the two into— like everyone in one room, or just two? Like the—

like starting with everyone in one room, and then the first test is like everyone's blindfolded and you have to try to find the person, like no sight. So, and then if you couldn't, then you're out.

And they're all exes, but you could talk?

No, um, by feel and like walking around. A lot of people did it, like 8 remained after that, 8 pairs.

And then what was the— what happened after?

And then it just got harder and harder and harder. Um, and then I haven't seen the end of the video yet, so I'm not sure yet, but he like brings out a ring at one point. Like, there are a lot of elements to this video. People got back together.

People did.

Yeah, 3 people.

I want to know now if they're still together now that the video's out.

Very fair. But like, the fact that we're talking about this and it's like interesting is like, that's how you know it's a good idea, right? Yeah. If you just like tell the line and immediately— like his other video, he stood in front of a full-speed Tesla to see if it would stop. So it's like these ideas are crazy, but they get your attention.

That's bananas.

Yeah. And so you're like immediately like, I got to know.

See, but like that, that idea I'm going to push back on here, like—

because it's not safe.

Forget that part. That, yeah. But like, you can't tell me he's not chasing vanity metrics with that concept.

Oh, for sure. He wants to hit like the most amount of people ever. But his goal is to make people more curious about the world. So I like it a lot. It's like, can you pick like the biggest spectacle idea to get like a million people in but then make them feel something? So his other video that did really well—

I felt something and I don't need to watch that video.

True. Yeah. His other video that crushed, I thought was amazing, was ages 1 to 100 try the Apple Vision Pro.

That's interesting.

And it's so interesting. And like watching the 100-year-old like be so techie was unexpected and fascinating. So it's like the top of funnel. Yeah, that was an outlier video. It got like 1.5 million views.

No, but also outlier 100-year-old.

Oh, true. Yeah. I know this person like had it going on. Like they were very with it and it's really hard to get ages 1 to 100 in a room. But now once you have that cast, you could do so many ideas with them. So that's like, I think he's like a creator first and like doesn't care as much about the business, but is learning to, 'cause that's how you supercharge it. Whereas I know other people that were not creators first, they saw the business opportunity and now they're learning the creative. Like Sahil Bloom, I think is a creator for sure, but also like brilliant business person.

And he's approaching YouTube. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Right?

And approaching YouTube so differently than anyone else. Like he's a whole team from day one.

Yeah. And I mean, I saw— I've watched a couple of his like day in the life videos.

Me too. They're great.

They're super meticulous. I mean, he's— the quality of what he does all the time is super high.

True. Yeah. And he also is like really okay with experimenting with so many different formats because YouTube isn't like make or break for him. Like his bread and butter is like the companies.

His output is crazy though. True. Why do you think that is?

I think he has a really good team. I think he's obviously incredibly hardworking, but I think like if you have a team of multiple editors and a filmer, it's realistic to do multiple videos a week.

But it's not even the videos. It's like the newsletter, the writing, businesses, the investments, and like the operating partner. Like, I always wonder how someone like that can like build this. And he's also in sick shape and he still like prioritizes his family, his family and his nutrition. And like, there's a lot of— there's a lot to unpack there.

Yeah, he's pretty amazing. I would love to know. I think a lot of things in life, though, are just like that. Your habits. Like, if you probably like lived his everyday, you would have the same things. It's just that most people aren't consistent with the everyday.

What would you say are habits that you have that are maybe, uh, unique, or people would be impressed by you being able to like maintain them?

Okay, I wouldn't say unique, but like fundamental. Wake up early, work out every day.

What time do you wake up lately?

Okay, so I— a few years ago I used to work until 2 or 3 AM most nights. Now I've switched. Yeah, I know, but it's like bad for you though. Like, I was like 2 or 3 AM like multiple nights a week, and then just like not like, then you wake up like later or you're getting no sleep. I think it's really good in the moment, but if you have a team, you can't do that. So like when I was like solo editing everything and also like managing it with school, like there was no way to like be in school full-time. And then also like those are the only hours that I had free. But now I've like reversed schedule. So I get up every day between like 5:00 and 7:00 AM and then work out, work. I think like just like that daily is like boring in terms of like it's just the fundamentals. But now I'm traveling a lot too for work. So that's changed the schedule. Like last month I was in 4 different states in like 4 weeks. So that was like a big—

I have gone through phases where, uh, we were talking about this where I traveled a bunch and actually this year I've made an intentional decision to like nix a lot of it.

Okay. Why?

Because I'm such a routine and such a, I'm such a routine person, such a habit person that the easiest way to like mess up your routine is travel.

Oh, 100%.

Sleeping in a different bed, eating different places, not sure where you're going to necessarily exercise. And it, like, the level of discipline it takes to, like, remain on top of your game while traveling a lot is really, really mentally taxing.

Totally. Yeah, I feel like the travel has to be, like, ROI positive in a million other ways because it does take a lot. And, like, even that you open yourself up to, like, so many unexpected elements, like your plane gets canceled, or, like, yeah, now you're, like, late for something. Um, But then, like, so for me, every single trip has been a work trip. So it's been like in service of like the bigger goal. But I wouldn't just like travel all the time. Like some of my friends, like what you did, like they'll like go on like a nomad period or let us like travel for like more fun. To me, like, I'm more excited by being in New York City than that. Yeah.

I mean, I'm in a very similar mode. I also think I'm guilty of turning most trips into a combination of like business and pleasure. Yeah, I don't know. I also think it's easy to chalk it up to business because you can meet someone or like totally, you know, justify going to a new city and setting up meetings, knowing you're going there.

Totally.

Which I think is actually a good habit for entrepreneurs.

Totally.

To marry the two.

Yeah. I think integration is like an idea that I talk a lot about with one of my friends, Andrew, who has like all these tech parties. Like, I think work-life balance in your 20s is a lie or like honestly at any point in your life. But I think I saw a quote that was like, and I know it's like extreme, but like the easiest way to like be mediocre is to have work-life balance in your 20s. And I think it's like—

Wow, that one hits different.

Yeah. But and I think like work-life balance doesn't have to be like, or not having work-life balance doesn't have to be this miserable thing. Like if everything's integrated in your life, then I think it's a positive. Like if you love work, like that will be more fun than like drinking at a bar on a Friday night. Like I would rather be having an interesting conversation on a Friday night. So I think it doesn't have to be an either or.

I talk about this a lot actually, where a big reframing for me in terms of my thinking and how I approach my life is treating it as 7-day weeks instead of like Monday through Friday.

I love that.

So like if I want to go work out at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday, like no one can stop me. Because I know I'm accountable for the work that I need to get done. And because I don't think that I have to jam everything in between Monday and Friday, I can like have a little bit of like forgiveness for myself to like do things differently on days where I'm maybe just not feeling as like motivated or inspired.

I love that. Yeah, I think working on the weekends is like an easy way to kind of win the week. Like if you like set yourself up on Sunday for Monday, the week starts out so much better because I mean, at least for me, I'm sure you can relate to this, but no one's bothering you. Yeah, especially if you have a team, you just like lock in and you could do your things. And also it feels like extra free work because like most people don't work on a Sunday or a Saturday, so it feels like you're just like adding to what you want to do.

I want to talk to you about your thoughts on just college education.

Okay.

And like, I have this belief that the college system is gonna like blow up in the next 10 years relative to what it is today because it's so expensive.

Yep.

There's so many more resources online for people I'm curious what your thoughts are on like a lot of people paying $60,000, $70,000 a year at this point to like go to some of these universities.

Yeah. Okay. So I went to college.

So do I.

And yeah. Okay, nice. And so it's obviously like a privilege to get to go, right? Like, where'd you go to school? Uh, NYU.

Okay.

Which honestly never talked about publicly online. So this is an exclusive. I just finished this week.

Wow.

Yeah. So I like—

That's insane that you also made it through. I was curious if that was gonna happen.

It was rough. I'll be honest. Like there, cuz I, I think I was there like 7 7 times a semester because I'm just like traveling so much. Um, and like also like I'm always gonna pick work over school, obviously. So like it was rough.

You say obviously, but that's actually not an obvious thing for a lot of people.

For sure. I guess I'm lucky that like NBT is going well, and like I also think that if I want to reach the goals that I have, I just have to like give it everything I have. Um, but I've never talked about it online because I really try to have like a distinction between like my personal life and professional life online Not that I like won't share things, but I like in the moment, I don't know, I didn't want like people coming to NYU if I was there. So now that I'm done, it's official. This is the first podcast I mentioned it.

Wow. Congrats.

Thank you. Yeah. And it was like, so I'm pro-college obviously in like a certain extent, but I also think that it is like very expensive and I don't necessarily think you're going for like the learning only in the class. I think it's the other things too. But it's tough because you and I are obviously like in entrepreneurial communities. So like, the people that we hang out with, I feel like a lot of times are the exception and not the average. And I feel like there are probably a ton of people that don't go to college and then don't do well. So we only see people that don't go to college and do well, you know?

Yeah, that's reasonable. I mean, looking back, what would you say are the most valuable takeaways you got from going to NYU?

Mm. I learned a lot of, like, business stuff like that was like more like practical. Like, I didn't know, like, what CAC was or like some of these, like, lifetime value. Like, I learned some of that. So initially, my junior of high school, I really wanted to go to Cornell. That was like the dream. Um, and so I started guest lecturing there. Oh, no way! For hockey? Yeah, yeah, because I've been to Cornell hockey and they're pretty good.

Yeah, but I guess fun, you guys.

Yeah, I mean, you also play sports, so that like completely changes your college experience, right?

A mile.

Yeah, like I think it like gives you community from day one, and then you like get to like be competitive and really good at something.

And also like you're way more efficient because you don't have free time.

True, it's like having a full-time job.

100%. Yeah, you have time, you have like such a rigorous schedule around the sport that you only have so time to do homework and to study and to go to class and then like this much time to do like free time activities.

Totally. Yeah, I really— that's how I felt about YouTube too, because my— I feel like my freshman and sophomore year were like a little bit more intense at school because it was like all of like the prereqs. But like I've kind of had the mindset from like day one that work is more important. So like I really care a lot about school, but ultimately I'm going to pick work over it. And so I don't know, it just became like less and less a part of my life. Like I don't even really feel like I'm there anymore type of thing. But anyway, so junior, I really want to go to Cornell. And so I started guest lecturing there because I thought that if I guess lecture, it would be like an easier, like, application, right? And then I ended up like picking between Cornell and NYU, but I picked NYU because I was coming to the city like 4 times a week. I was like, there's just no way to do like the 4-hour commute. So I think NYU was like the best because it was in New York. So it was kind of like getting to get the college degree, but then also like not really pause my career.

How did you break into the guest lecturing at Cornell?

I cold emailed a professor. Which I think people like really underate the cold email. I saw this like guy that was teaching a class about storytelling and I was like, hey, I think I could like talk about this if you're interested. And he's like, yeah, like come up to Cornell, like we'll talk. We met, we like just had like a 2-hour conversation. It was like so energizing. And I've been working with him now for like, I guess since junior year. So like 6, 7 years still. Yeah, same guy. I just went there like 2 weeks ago.

Wow.

Yeah, he's awesome. I've like learned a lot from him too. He has like a huge like social media career in journalism.

How did you like— why was he the person you emailed?

The class just seems super relevant.

Like it was like it was a relevant class at the school you want to go to.

Yeah. And I was like, I really want to go here. I think like if I— so like any of the all the top schools that I wanted to go to, that was kind of the catalyst for why I did it because I just thought it'd be a really good way to meet the students. And then I thought it'd be like more unique on the application than just like an ACT score or like your GPA or whatever. And it was also good because I feel like I learned a lot about like what the schools were like. So I started like my junior and then I just like fell in love with guest lecturing. So I've done it since. Not obviously to get into school anymore, but just because it's fun.

Where do you get this drive from?

Like, to do stuff?

Like, you just graduated college. This is like wild.

Yeah, I guess. So I started when I was 13, so I was like in 6th grade. So like from 6th grade to now, I've worked like 40 or 80 hours a week with school. So like, this is actually kind of exciting because there's never been a time where I've not had 2 full-time jobs. So like now I'm going to be able to give even more time to work, which is great. And like, yeah, it feels like this is like the year where we can really like push it even further.

What drives you though? Like where, what, where do you get this from?

I feel like I always just like wanted to create something and I feel like I'm so inspired by like, I don't know, having an idea in your head and then getting to share it with like millions of people is super exciting to me. And I also like, I grew up like loving technology, but no one ever liked it. And so like I played sports growing up and all my friends were like really into sports and school and whatever, but no one ever loved tech. And then I posted my first video And then I met thousands of people that love tech and I like want to give that experience to other people. So that's like a huge driver. And then also, so I started in 6th grade, by like 7th or 8th grade, I started going to like networking parties.

So like I've been friends with networking parties.

What is that like in New York? Like it would be like, like kind of like what we go to now where it's like founders, entrepreneurs, people.

But that was like a term. I've never heard that term before.

Like a networking party?

No.

Whoa. Interesting. Yeah.

I mean, I go to like events and I inherently network there, but I've never heard someone explicitly say, yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of an icky term, to be honest.

Like, because then it feels transactional. You got to—

we got to We gotta dig into this. Okay, so people actually say like, hey, I'm hosting a networking party, come to this?

I don't know, like, yeah, some of them.

What was the first networking party you went to?

Oh, good question. Um, I don't remember. I think it was a YouTuber like hosted it, but like also some of them were just like parties, but like they were like, I guess like to meet people in the industry, but it feels a little transactional. So like now I just like go to— like, I honestly, the reason why they went—

I've just never heard that term before.

That's so wild.

It's like, yeah, all right, everyone walk in, like get your 3 phone numbers and get the hell out of here.

Yeah, that's what's bad about it because I feel So the reason that they went well for me was because I had like, I didn't need anything from anyone at that point because I was like in middle school. And so I was just like becoming friends with people, you know? So I met a lot of like really smart, like fun, kind people. And so like growing up, even like in high school, like a lot of my friends were older. Like I was friends with people in high school, but I was also friends with like 20 and 30-year-olds that were in the industry. So I feel like that also like helped drive me because like I saw the path and it was so inspiring being around them.

How do you think about relationships? Like what are— how do you manage your relationships and what do you think are the important aspects of being good at managing relationships?

Like friendships or like romantic relationships? Both?

Romantic, business, personal, like whatever.

Yeah, I think for honestly all of them, like, it's so important to be a good friend. Like, I would pick like being a really good person in a relationship over like most other things. Like, even if like short term that means like you miss, like you get a little bit less sleep or like you kind of like hurt one of your other like less important goals, I feel like being a good person matters a lot. So like fundamentally, um, and I think it's like, have you heard of like the thing where it's like treadmill friend versus like couch friend? No. Okay. So I think it's a Sahil Bloom thing where it's like a treadmill friend is you hang out with them and then you feel like more energized, like you're like ready to run like 10 miles on a treadmill. And then like a couch friend is like you hang out with them and you're so drained after, like you like need to get on the couch. And it's kind of a good barometer of like who you should be spending time with. Like ideally everyone in your life is like a treadmill friend where like you hang out and you're like, let's do this thing. Like I'm so excited and inspired. So I feel like that's a big— it's like, are they a good per— like, are we like good people, like adding value to each other in terms of like love, whatever. And then do they make you excited about what you want to do?

That's the biggest thing for me is the inspiration that I get from the people that I'm around. I mean, I think that the concept of like the treadmill versus the couch, I think people refer to that in a million different ways. I think for me it's just like, is it an energy suck? Yeah, it's the same term, and just like, that's how I think about it. Yeah, if you leave the event and you're like, oh my God, oh my God, I can't be around that person, versus like, I want to like get in a room and with a whiteboard with that person. Yeah, just be a nerd and jam out.

100%. Like, if it's like you leave a 2-hour hangout, you're like, that felt like 10 minutes, that's a win. If you like go on— it's like same thing for a date, right? If you go on the date and it's like the entire date you're like carrying the conversation and it feels like a drag, like that's a pretty bad sign. But if you go on the date and you're like, oh my God, we just like walked for 5 hours, I can do this again, like good sign.

Yeah, if it's timeless, it's probably good.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know, do you know how my co-host and I started this?

No, tell me.

So I was looking online one day, I wanted to hire a content lead for my company.

Okay.

And I was just Googling like, how much does that position cost? It's like very new to me.

Okay.

At the time, like, yeah, yeah. And I opened LinkedIn and I had a notification. It was a connection request from someone, and I clicked on the profile and his tagline on LinkedIn was, your first content hire. And he had like a content agency.

That's cool.

And I was like, all right, this is serendipitous. I need to talk to this guy. So I messaged him on LinkedIn. I was like, hey, I know this is weird, but I'm literally like looking into hiring someone in this realm. Can we talk?

Yep.

And we got on a call that was scheduled for 30 minutes and we spoke for 2 hours and ended the call with, let's start a podcast together.

Wow, that's crazy. What on the call made you feel that way?

To what you just said, it was time.

Yeah, we were—

there's the energy and we were just like going on and on about all sorts of topics and like we're the same kind of nerd and like we're getting along about things that we felt were so misunderstood by like the circles of people we were with growing up.

Yep.

Like high school friends, college friends that maybe think you're just like weird because you're doing things that others aren't.

Yep.

Um, and we just like had that commonality, and then it was like, okay, let's build a studio and kill it. Yeah, this is episode 36, I think I said.

Yeah.

Uh, and we just actually landed our first sponsor for the podcast, which will be— I mean, it's a couple of— a couple episodes after yours when it will actually be like official.

That's so exciting.

Um, but it's like officially business. Yeah, yeah, like we signed the dotted line, which is super fun.

Yeah, that's really cool because it's like it was an idea and now an actual thing in the world. And also, like, you've inspired thousands of people too. Like, that's so cool.

I, I don't even— you know what's funny is you say you've inspired thousands, I couldn't even tell you. I might have inspired 10 people.

No, I don't know.

No, seriously though, I've never once— I've never— I think maybe this is where I vary from, like, at least podcast versus YouTube. Yeah, I know with YouTube it's important to, like, look at your analytics, where are people dropping off, things like that. I've never once looked at analytics. I couldn't even tell you how many subscribers we have. I couldn't tell you how many listens our episodes get. I've never looked at the metrics one time because I told myself that like my podcast would be something that I did for me. And the way that I phrased this, someone said this to me and it resonated, was when you're building a company, you're extremely busy and it's really hard to like block off dedicated time to educate yourself and just learn. For me, this is my learning time.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah, like I sit down with people who I'm genuinely curious to learn from. And so now it's like, okay, we're going to get content that we can distribute on the internet. And I'm also going to learn something. So if I walk away from this and like only a couple of people listen, but I actually like learn something, this is almost my equivalent of like, go block off your calendar and like read for an hour.

I love that. Fully agree. Yeah, I think about that all the time. Like there's multiple ways for something to be a win for like content. Like if you reach 10 people but like one of them becomes your best friend, that's an ultimate win. Or like if you have an interesting conversation because I think about— I interview like a lot of executives in tech companies and there are certain companies where it's like maybe there's like less interest from the audience, but like I'm personally super interested in it. And you never know like how that conversation will then inform like a video 10 years from now.

A video, a relationship, an opportunity. I mean, you nailed this early on, and I think this is part of your guiding principle of how you got to where you got to, is just like you increase your surface area by distributing anything.

Totally agree. Yeah, because you never know, like the serendipity of life is so magic that like you can make something now that doesn't hit, and then like 3 years from now that's like the piece of content that made you, like, become close to someone. Or, like, I found my current thumbnail designer because I did a video recently where I tested out every single Apple Vision Pro app, and that was, like, a concept that was, like, kind of high effort. And so posted on Twitter, and this guy who's amazing, uh, was like, I think that's a really cool idea, and I would love to do a thumbnail for it. And so, like, that video in the moment, like, did well, but, like, I actually met this guy who's exceptional. I've never met anyone like him, and if I didn't make that video, I never would have met him. So you just never know.

Have you ever taken a moment— like, have you ever taken moments to when something happens where it's kind of like a holy shit moment.

Yeah.

Do you ever like backtrack the series of events that had to happen in order for that to happen?

Oh, like, what do you mean?

Like, you mean like my, my example would be— let me think of like a really relevant example. Um, okay, so I, when I played hockey at Colgate.

Yep.

And then I was planning to enroll, or enroll— I was planning to go to, uh, you— I mean, I've said it before, to EY, to like do my consulting job. COVID happened the year I graduated. EY gave all the incoming analysts the option to defer for a year because they didn't know what was going to happen to their own business.

Oh wow.

So I basically got a free option call for one year to go like do entrepreneurial things. And then after that year, 12 hours before my first day, I told them I wasn't coming.

Yeah.

But in a world where like a pandemic didn't happen and I would have gone to EY, I, I— my life would be completely different. I would have never met the people that I've met. I would have never been involved in the opportunities that I was involved in.

It's crazy.

But it was because I had the opportunity to like do something that I was curious about, and now my life will forever be different because of that. So I always wonder like, what if I went DUI? What if I didn't? Like, what if I didn't play hockey in college? Like, I was debating to quit after my freshman year at one point because I like didn't play that many games and it was miserable. And then like I led my team in points senior year. It's like, what if I quit? Like, where would my life have been? Yeah, you know, you never got that win your senior year. Yeah, like all, all the, all these things though. So I even like wins, even like wins with my business. I'm like, I would have never met, you know, this investor or this customer had I not gone to that one event or had I not like met that person. And so every time cool things happen to me, I like have this habit of like tracing back how that happened. And it's, you know what, I'll talk about Griff is a great example actually, the producer. Griff, say hi. We've never actually, uh Um, the way that Griff and I met is actually extremely cool. We were looking for an editor, uh, for Birthday Series when we had the YouTube channel. And myself, uh, Ryan, who I started the channel with, and then our other friend Garrett, we had all posted on our Instagram story like a Google Form. Okay, just like, hey, we're looking for an editor, like, can you fill this out? And Griff had submitted the form, and I looked at his portfolio and I was like, this is dope. And then I went on his Instagram, and one of our best girlfriends who lives in the city was a mutual follower with him. So I texted her, I was like, I was like, Devin, what's this kid's deal? And she was like, oh, like I'm friends with him and his girlfriend, like he's dope. So like we hit him up and like, you know, here we are like months later and he's the one that's helping me produce the podcast.

Yeah, and it never would have happened.

But it's like if I didn't start a YouTube channel, I would have never met Griff because I would have never posted about needing a producer. And it's like I go down these weird philosophical rabbit holes all the time of like how I end up in situations with certain people and I think it's a really cool way to, like, reflect on why being a yes person is important.

I love that. Okay, wait, so do you believe that everything happens for a reason?

100%.

Okay, me too. And I love that because, yeah, I think about it all the time. Like people that I'm like best friends with. So a lot of my best friends in the city I met because of another really like close friend of mine, Andrew. And I initially reached out to Andrew because one of my other friends needed a job and he was hosting an event where people could find like work in tech. And so I DM'd him and I was like, hey, I have this friend who's like leaving this company and wants to come. And he's like, oh, like, actually the event's full, but like, you should just come to like this creator event I'm hosting. And I went. And then like, I would say now, like, 7 of my best, like, closest friends are from him. And he's also like one of my best friends too. Never would have happened otherwise. Like, I never would have reached out to him because I wasn't looking to work in tech. Like, why would I write him? Um, yes, you just never know. Yeah.

So I think it's been, uh, it's a really cool thing to reflect on. Um, Griff, how long we've been going for? I feel like we've just kind of What? Amazing. Um, another question I have for you. I'm curious how you envision your life in 10 years from now.

Whoa, okay.

Because I feel like you're someone who just like, you know exactly where you're trying to get to. It's like very clear to me. It might be like a little bit foggy, but directionally I feel like you know exactly what you want the world to look like in your— like your world in a decade from now.

Thank you. Yeah, do you feel like you have that too?

Like, you know what, directionally, but not like exactly?

Yeah, okay, same. Yeah, because I feel like when I've been like exact, like, oh, I'm gonna live here and do like it ends up being different in like a really good way. Um, I would say if I'm hitting like trying to be great in every area of life, that will be the win. So it's like work, health, friendship, relationships, family. Like if I'm killing it in those areas, it'll be a win. So for work, I want to make like the best videos possible and bring like millions of people into tech. Um, for like friendships, like how do I like be the best friend possible and like make sure that like I'm prioritizing being like supportive and having fun with friends, relationships, Same thing, like stable, happy relationship, like 10 years from now, maybe kids. I don't know, we'll see. I'll be like 32. Um, and then, um, I love New York City. I'll probably still be living in New York City. If I'm not living in New York City, hopefully. I don't know.

Are you going to be the person to raise their kids in the city?

Probably. I don't know. Or at least, at the very least, it would be sick to have a place in the city. I don't know, like, I—

that's the dream, right? I agree with that because I don't want to raise kids here, but I would love to have access to a place here.

Yeah, like have an apartment. Then would you raise them in like the suburbs? Yeah.

Yeah, I was a suburb kid.

Me too. And it's really nice to be—

being able to like ride my bike around the neighborhood and like having a pool in the backyard and playing like pickup football with my friends, like, and not have to worry about some crazy things that can happen in the city.

Totally.

I think there's a lot of value that comes from that. But look, like, you're a product of your environment and your perspective is based on your own experiences, so it's not to say that the other options aren't—

yeah, we've never lived it, so we don't know.

But I think after living here and evaluating it and seeing some other of my friends who did grow up in the city, I'm like, I think I want my kids to grow up in the suburbs.

Yeah, I actually totally get that. Yeah, the suburbs, like, upbringing, like, if you're not directly in a city, is like, feel pretty wholesome. Like, you could do things more easily. The bike though, I never rode a bike until like 4 months ago, and I had to teach myself. It was tragic, really. Like, I rode it one time when I was like a kid, and then I don't know, I just like never biked. I like did other sports.

That's how my friends— that's how we got around, because it was like, if we didn't want to wait on a parent to be able to drive us somewhere, and we all lived within like a mile, a couple miles of each other at most. It was like, I'm biking to my friend's house, we're biking to go get ice cream, we're biking to go to the park. Wow. And I actually— again, this is an example of a moment of like reflecting on not realizing like experiences that happen because of things like that. But it was like, you know, my dad was at work and my mom probably had to like run errands or maybe like take my sister somewhere. And I was like, well, I don't want to like sit at home, I want to hang out with my friends. See, we can ride my bike.

Yeah. Whereas I never bike. And so then I like was biking for a video recently where I was like trying out like cycling on like the new watch and it was so hard.

Like I should have put training wheels on it. Would have been a good touch on the video.

Oh my God, I would have loved that. Yeah. So it like went really bad and then like went back to the park a bunch of days to like get better at it. Now I like it, but I think like for a while there I was like the world's worst biker. Like it was—

I don't like biking actually, for what it's worth. No, I prefer running, which is also crazy because I was never a runner.

Okay. I like running too. I like stress fracture my leg recently though, and then I was not allowed to run for a while.

I ran today for the first time in 2 months.

Do you also stress fracture?

No, I hurt my hip training for a marathon. Oh, but today was my first run. It was actually at, um, uh, do you know Jack Taylor? It's like a massive PR firm that did an activation with like every fitness and wellness brand under the sun. That's in Ken Rideout.

Oh, I had this event on my calendar. I ended up not being able to go, but it was on my calendar.

Yeah, so they did like the— it started with like a run this morning.

Nice.

Uh, and it was— I got cleared on Tuesday, so it was my first run in 2 months. How'd it feel? One. It was good. It was nice to be back. I feel like my mental went a little crazy. Yeah, uh, losing that for a little while.

Totally. Yeah, especially if like that's one of your like releases.

Then I don't run with headphones.

Oh, whoa.

Uh, yeah, it seems serial killer at first, but basically the logic for me was when you talk to so many people all the time and you're a thinker, your brain is always moving. And running with no headphones, it's the only time that I can process unresolved thoughts.

Yeah, I like that.

So I actually think I fell in love with with not the running itself, but like the therapy I get from the mind work that happens while I'm doing it. And so I haven't put headphones back on to run like a long time.

What about your other exercise? Are you wearing headphones?

No.

No? Okay, never.

I don't exercise with headphones anymore.

Wow, that's good. I actually think that not wearing headphones is kind of a life hack. Like, I feel like I wear them too much when I'm like walking around the city, and then when you have them off, like, you notice so much more.

The only time I do it when I'm in the city is if I'll multitask and take phone calls while I'm going somewhere. And then I was also actually wearing headphones when I was like biking and doing the elliptical at the gym because I couldn't run.

Yeah.

And because I don't like those activities, it's like I need to distract myself. Yeah. But generally no.

Okay, we did the same thing. I also had to go to biking and the elliptical when the running was axed. Not nearly as fun. No, biking outside is fun because you're like in the environment.

I city bike to get places, but on the street— oh yeah, I'm, I'm— it's not good. If my mom is listening to this, she probably—

yeah, my parents would be super disappointed.

I'm like weaving in and out of cars.

Wow, okay, but you're like an experienced biker.

That doesn't make it okay to like— you sometimes it's not in your control.

True. Yeah, well, have you ever watched Casey's Bike Lanes video?

Yeah, I mean, that's— but what's crazy also is like he takes it to another level. Not only him, but a lot of other creators with the skateboards.

Yeah, pretty badass.

They're just like in the middle of the streets with like cameras like weaving in and out, like 20 miles per hour. Yeah, that's dangerous.

Yeah, it's wild. Um, I did a— so Boosted makes like a scooter version of that, and I like went on a trip with them like maybe like 4 years ago, and I did it, but it was on a main road. That also felt quite dangerous. And I was like, I'm just not built for this type of activity.

But it's also exhilarating at the same time.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. But then like, I don't know, I feel like for it to be like a really good skateboarder, it's like a lot of probably falling and like getting injured before you can do it.

Yeah, you got to, you got to be willing to put in the work. I mean, that's what with anything else.

Anything. Yeah. But like, I feel like ROI, if like I get injured skateboarding, then I can't run. Not worth it to me. But like, for certain people, totally worth it, you know?

Yeah. Tony Hawk would do it.

Yeah.

Jacqueline, this was awesome.

Yeah, you're the best.

I think we could have gone on for like 4 hours.

I agree.

Yeah. I really appreciate you coming on today. Do I just look at the camera, let everyone know where they can find you and what you're working on?

Yes. Thanks for having me. Of course. If you look up Nothing But Tech on YouTube or then Twitter and Instagram, NBT Jaclyn, you want videos on like real-world tech. That's the mission.

Hell yeah. Go give her a follow and subscribe.

Appreciate you.

Thanks for coming.

Yeah, of course. That's so fun. Oh, that was great.