#038: How a $6M Contract Unleashed a New Level of Biohacking: Ketone-IQ’s Michael Brandt Tells All

You gotta be in love with what you're doing. And if you're not into it, get out of it. Like you gotta really be one-to-one with the product. Like for me, I got into this cuz I'm a big marathon runner, really into the human performance space. I just love the product. And like, to me this is like, it's a big part of my identity. And so yeah, when I go on different podcasts, different places, I was saying too, like I just, I'm just telling my Uber driver about it or like the lady next to me on the airplane. Like I'm always telling people about it. And one way to think about it is it's It's like sets and reps, like telling everyone. It's not like I turn it on just for this. You end up telling your cousin, friend, whatever at the wedding, like it comes up. And I'm not trying to like push it all the time in like an annoying way, but like it always just comes up because it's like so integrated into my life.

Michael Brandt is the co-founder and CEO of Ketone IQ, an innovative startup that transitioned from a niche biohacker concept to a renowned brand in the health and wellness sector after signing a $6 million contract with the US Department of Defense. In this episode, we delve into Michael's remarkable journey from creating the world's first ketone shot to partnering with the Tour de France winning cycling team, Visma. We uncover how Ketone IQ expanded its reach and how the CEO made the ultimate leap from tech to nutrition thanks to his passion for human performance and development. Welcome to season 2, episode 1 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Michael Brandt, the co-founder and CEO of Ketone IQ joining us. Thanks for joining today, Michael.

Great to be here. It's going to be a fun conversation.

We're going to get started by just ripping this thing and then we can talk about what's actually in it.

Let's go.

There's no better way to start. Cheers.

Cheers.

Thanks for coming out here, man. Cheers. We have the caffeine ones.

Yeah.

What are you doing to us?

All right, I'm just going to be honest with you.

This tastes way better than what I just had.

Yeah. Yes. I haven't had one of those in a long time, but I remember it not tasting as good as this, if I'm being honest. This is fantastic.

I'm glad to hear it.

Yeah, what's in it? Okay, well, tell us what Ketone IQ is.

What I drink is Ketone IQ, just a pure ketone shot. And what you have is our latest product, which is ketones and caffeine, and we also made it taste really good. So we now have two products. We've been rocking just the pure ketones. That's our whole innovation, is we figured out a way to make ketones, which is an energy source. It's not caffeine, it's not sugar, it's its own other source of energy. And we figured out a way to make that in a bottle. We've been selling that for a couple years, and now we've made a product that's ketones and caffeine. It's just an awesome stack. You're gonna feel awesome in like 5 minutes. And glad you— glad to hear it tastes good.

Can you explain to maybe people listening who don't even know what ketone is, like in simple layman's terms, what is it and why is it good for you?

Yeah, yeah. Ketone is form of energy that your brain especially thrives off of. A lot of people have heard of like the ketogenic diet where you're— when you eat really low carb, your body will force itself to make ketones from fat, and your body makes those ketones to fuel your brain. When you have low blood sugar, your body needs something else to fuel your brain, so you start making these ketones. And our whole insight was to make a really pure ketone shot. And in 2019, we got a $6 million contract with the United States Department of Defense to develop the world's first ketone shot and do a bunch of research around it. And it's been a few years of R&D, and then we got the product to a spot where we're ready to commercialize it. We launched Ketone IQ in 2022, and we've been really getting the message out there about like ketones, this new form of energy, feels really good, um, it's really helpful for a lot of use cases from like special operators and elite athletes, just like everyday people, to even like different, different types of disease states, especially like neurological conditions where people are— we're seeing a lot of benefit in like ketones able to rescue brain activity when people have had concussions and things like that.

I love it. I wanted to rewind to like 2019, 2020 era. I think that's when we first started connecting.

Yeah.

And I'm really curious because back then it was a slightly different brand. It was in the big bottle. It definitely didn't taste as good. And I remember I'd have it in my fridge because I was like in the kind of health, wellness, biohacking world, and I would have it in my fridge. And everyone was like, I've never— like, what is this? I've never seen this before. And they taste it. They're like, I feel good, but this is super weird. And then flash forward to today. Like, my mom has seen Ketone IQ. Like, everyone, all of my friends have seen it around. And sometimes it's just in their fridges when I get there. I'm like, oh, I know Michael. And they're like, oh, I got this on Instagram. It's everywhere. And so going from kind of niche biohacker world to everyone knows what this is, including folks across a ton of different demographics. Can you walk us like, take us back to 2020 or maybe 2022 when you launched it and just how things kind of took off from there?

Yeah, well, it started really as this niche biohacker concept that like people had heard of. Some people within the biohacking world had heard about ketones. People had like tried the ketogenic diet or they were familiar with a ketone from a distance, but not like a lot of people. Um, and so I remember when we launched, we had a waitlist of like 34,000 people, which is like big but not big, you know what I mean? It's like, it's big as an entrepreneur starting from zero, but in the 8 billion people on the planet, it's not big. Um, and so yeah, we had this nice seed crystal though of people that were into it. We launched the— and got the product out there, and, um, it's been brick by brick from there. It's been a lot of of what's worked really well for us is like creators and influencers, like getting people— when people get really into it, and if— when those people have a following, we always try to figure out a way to work with them to like get like further amplify the word of mouth out from there and just kind of like lily pot— lily pad hopping out from there. So it's cool. It feels like everyone's heard about you. Uh, I think we're still very early. Like, I think if we went on the shelf at like Walmart in like Arkansas. I don't think that everyone there would have heard about us yet. So we definitely have our work cut out for us to keep doing what we've been doing and like getting— like spreading out further. But yeah, we're a lot bigger than we were. It still feels like we're very early though.

But I want to highlight one thing that I mentioned to both of you before we started the podcast. We've had a handful of CPG and consumer founders on this podcast. Not a single one brought their product and put it on the table for viewers to see and for us to try.

He knows what he's doing.

And when I said that, when I said that to you and I was like, just so you know, like no one else has done this. You looked at me with 10 heads like, wait, what do you mean?

It's crazy to me. Like, how could you not? Like, to me, it's like full embodiment of, of the kind of founder product fit. Like, you got to be in love with what you're doing. And if, if you're not into it, get out of it. Like, you got to really be one to one with the product. Like, for me, I got into this because I'm a big marathon runner. Really into the human performance space. I just love the product. And I— and like, to me, this is like— it's a big part of my identity. And so, yeah, when I go on different podcasts, different places, I was saying to like, I just— I'm just telling my Uber driver about it or like the lady next to me on the airplane. Like, I'm always telling people about it. And I mean, one way to think about it is it's just like sets and reps, like telling everyone. It's not like I turn it on just for this. Like, you end up telling your cousin, friend, whatever at the wedding. Like, it comes up. And I'm not— I'm not trying to like push it all the time. In like an annoying way, but it like, it always just comes up because it's like so integrated into my life. It's like, what do you do? Like, what do you— I'm just very into what I do and it comes up. And it's crazy to me that you could be a founder on something and not bring— if you're on like an awesome podcast, like why wouldn't you bring product with you to get out there? Like why hide it away or like think that that's not part of your own story that you're there to tell?

Especially like you have a— I feel like you have a box with you everywhere you go. Yeah, there's always got to be one or two minimum on you.

Multiple SKUs. Yeah, multiple SKUs.

You never know who you're going to meet or where you're going to be. And the last thing you want is like you meet that dream person and you're like, I don't have it. I'll email you or call you and send it to you.

Yeah, you run into Taylor Swift and she's like, oh, what do you do?

Sorry, I don't have them on me.

Yes. Oh, man. Shoot. What's your email? Yeah.

One thing I want to talk about with you is that you've been working on this for for 5, 6 years.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. And so over time, people change, people evolve, new interests. Sometimes there are also core parts of your identity. Like, I will be an Arsenal fan forever. You will be a Bills fan forever. Like, there are some things that stick with you forever, but there are also something that's changed over time. And so like when we met, I was running The Proof, like this wellness newsletter kind of on the side as a passion project. I don't run it anymore. I just got busy with other things. And health and wellness will always be core to me. Like, it's always been a big interest of mine. But I've kind of scaled back a little and I got really into like go-to-market and content and that kind of led me into the B2B software world. And so over time, my interests have kind of evolved, even though health and wellness will always be core. And so I'm curious for you and other founders you talk to as well, like 5, 6 years in, 8, 9, 10 years, do you think any founders, maybe not yourself specifically, kind of like their interests evolve and maybe they're not as jazzed about it as they were at the beginning?

Yeah, that's real. That definitely happens to people. Like, you get into something, you know, you can get into an alcohol startup that's really fun when you're in your 20s, but then later, like, what do you do if you want to, like, stop drinking? Like, your own personal interests change and, like, you're trying to cut back on that. Or, like, like, the— that's just a made-up example, but, like, you could see getting into something, then, like, later on not caring as much about that area. And I think that's challenging for founders. I think you gotta, like, wrestle with it. I think that's actually a good reason why some people sometimes leave really good businesses. Like either, you know, a co-founder takes over or you hire a different CEO or like if the business is doing well, you like sell it to someone. I think those— I think it's actually a good reason to leave a business. Like if it's like a personal departure, like I think if the business is in a tough spot, you should stay and work on it. But if, if the business is in a good spot, but it's just like you're kind of breaking up with it or like you want to put your attention to somewhere else, I think it's a good reason to leave because I think you have to have that, that energy. Like you have to want to bring it with you when you're like everywhere in life. It has to feel really integrated. And if it doesn't, I think like you owe it to yourself to find something that you do feel that way about so that you can give 100% because it's— I would say if you try 110% as an entrepreneur, like maybe you'll make it. But if you don't bring 110%, like you're definitely not going to make it.

I love that quote.

Like, you got to aim to be the greatest. If you want to be great, like, try to be the greatest. If you want to be great at basketball, try to be Michael Jordan. And then, like, you might not be Michael Jordan, but, like, that— like, the only way that you're going to be great at something is to try to be the greatest. And so if your heart's not in it as an entrepreneur, you're kind of dead on arrival. Like, you're just not— like, I've never seen an entrepreneur that kind of, like, you know, phones it in 50% on Tuesdays and, like, and, like, it goes viral and they make a million dollars and oops. Like, it's like, no, it's like every— oops, every—

my bad.

Every entrepreneur I know, like, that, like, they just— it's like blood, sweat, and tears at like 8 days a week.

You bring up— you do bring up a really interesting point though, where what happens when you're a founder of something and you go through this evolution while you're still in the middle of building that thing versus, um, you have a successful outcome and then you can transition your interest into something new Do you guys know— do you know Chris Hunter?

Yeah, that—

like, he to me is the most perfect example. He started 4Loco and then he launched Koya.

What? The Koya? This—

the shake?

So that was the 4Loco.

So the first— dude, so I got on a call with Chris the first time and I was like, all right, I'm just gonna address the elephant in the room. This is actually what I said to him verbatim. I was like, how the fuck did you go from making one of the most dangerous drinks on the market? I kind of like this— like this better for you, like every nutrient, organic, whatever whatever protein smoothie? And he was like, it's a really good question. My honest answer for you is exactly what you said, which is, at the time, drinking and partying was cool to me, so Four Loko was really cool. I then had kids. I then cared about what they put in their body. I then cared about what I put in my body and realized that, like, that didn't align with my mission or my values anymore. So I course-corrected my entrepreneurial journey to be in line with it, which has turned into Koya.

Mm.

But what's interesting about him is like he had a successful outcome with Four Loko and was fortunate enough to make that transition personally and professionally simultaneously. I think the challenge happens when that intersection happens before you have a successful outcome.

100%.

So it's like you have the kids, you care what they're eating, but you're stuck maybe building this alcohol brand that you don't align with anymore. But it's like, now what? Which is why it's really interesting to you where it's like, if it's doing— it's not doing well, take a little bit of pride in what you do and make it do well and then remove yourself. Or if it's doing well and you don't align anymore, then find someone better than you for the role.

Yeah, yeah, you gotta, you gotta make it something that's really special to you. You gotta like really care about what you're doing. And if, if you're feeling that distance, you gotta, you gotta figure out some way to get out of there, I think. But yeah, I think there's something for the timing. Like, don't be, uh, don't be too much in a rush. But I think it also, it almost goes to the, this a core fact of just like hustle. Like, like you need to create those options sooner where if you want to get out of it, like, okay, are there like people— have you networked with people who could potentially run the company, GM the company, that you could sell the company to? Like, have you— can you flip it to like profitability, or is it burning a lot of cash? Like, like the better— it just goes back to like run a good business. Like the better the business you run, the more optionality you'll have to leave if you did want to leave. But then also, if it's a really good business, you're probably going to want to stay unless that core thing of like your— if your heart's really not into it, like you're just not into making swimsuits anymore or whatever your startup's around. Yeah.

I want to go back to prior to this. Like, I want to get a better understanding of how you ended up here. So I know you were product manager at YouTube. You were a professor at one point amongst some other things. I'm curious, like, what that trajectory was for you to land on becoming a founder of of ketone?

Yeah, I've always been really curious. I studied computer science in undergrad at Stanford and then went to— my first job was at YouTube as a product manager, and that was really fun, just like connecting a lot of dots across technology and culture. And this was like Gangnam Style, remember that?

Yeah, it was that pre-acquisition YouTube, or is that—

that was post-acquisition YouTube. It's still like very— like it had its own building, its own culture.

It's like we did our own thing.

Yeah, yeah. And that was really fun. I liked being a product manager, just connecting a lot of different dots. And that was really fun. And in my heart, I always felt like I wanted to be an entrepreneur. You know, you're in any kind of large company, it's like, I just saw the number of levels and years it would take to actually be able to make big calls. And I saw my friends went and started Snapchat. And they were just permissionlessly doing stuff on the internet because they wanted to. And I was there like, you know, presenting my ideas to like a director to present to a VP to like get buy-in. You know, it's like I was like, I think I'm— I think my level of— this is going to sound crazy, but I think you have to be a little crazy as an entrepreneur. Like, I think my level of like insight and vision, like, I don't want it to be like dulled down by all these like committee review meetings. I want to be able to like just like see the idea and like, boom, go. I don't want to get so like watered. I think my vision is like good. And it's if I have to convince 5 other people and if one of them disagrees, it gets vetoed down. It's like I'm not going to be able to do what I see as good ideas and good vision that needs to happen in the world. So I was like, fundamentally, like, I'm not going to be good at a big company unless I'm like running it. But then how do you run a big company? Like the best people— I remember realizing like, hey, if you're like junior person at Google, the best way you're going to ever have a meeting with Larry Page or something is like leave Google, start a successful company, then like Larry Page acquires your company. Yeah, like that. Like you're not— that's the fastest route to like be in the inner circle with Larry than like climbing up inside of Google. And then I got into human performance. I mean, that was the interesting pivot to me was like getting out of like software technology and seeing that like my insight was like everyone was going to start wearing rings and watches and And we're seeing that play out. Like, 50 million Americans have some kind of smartwatch. And I saw, you know, earlier days, I saw that was just like taking off. Like, um, Apple Watch was just coming out, Whoop was just coming out, like, and just predicting that there was going to be this API-ification of the human body where if you're measuring your sleep score, if you're measuring your heart rate, if you're measuring your blood glucose, that that's going to inform a lot of the nutrition decisions that people make. Like, people I don't know how many people you know that are like, they don't have so much caffeine afternoon anymore because like they know what their sleep score is, or they're cutting back on glucose because they wore a Levels continuous glucose monitor. Like a lot of people, it— we're seeing that thesis play true where because of the API-ification of all the— with all these sensors on and in the human body, that people are making more informed decisions about their nutrition. And so then I started looking at nutrition. I was getting into marathoning and endurance in physical performance optimization and just looking at the spectrum of options, like what exists, what doesn't exist, and seeing really inside of metabolism, the way that our body makes energy. That's a really big problem to solve. If you can solve energy, then I see that as a meta problem for humanity. If you can solve energy for humans, then that helps solve all the other problems because you just have more energy to go and do everything else. And inside of energy, it's like, well, yeah, your metabolism is really interesting, really fascinating. There's this like metabolite called ketones that is really efficient that your body makes. And like, I see all these people drinking Bulletproof Coffee. And, you know, the idea with Bulletproof Coffee, for those that aren't familiar, is like you take fat and you put it in your coffee and that like the fat eventually turns into ketones. And that was a big trend. Like, that was probably one of the biggest, like, you know, biohacking trends last decade and seeing like, okay, a lot of people are like chasing this ketone molecule, people doing intermittent fasting. And when you're fasting, Like, for a long time, I was doing 36-hour fasts, like, every once a week. I dialed that down as I got into more serious marathon training. I still completely buy into the benefits of fasting if you're not training, like, 90 miles— running 90 miles a week. And when you're fasting, your body starts making ketones. And I— we're all, like, fasting and measuring our blood ketone levels and basically seeing that this ketone molecule is something that a lot of people were chasing through these different alleyways and saying, like, okay, why can't you just go and make a ketone molecule? Why can't you make that fuel available to people? So that was like my transition from like tech world into nutrition world. I've been seeing it like— I still see nutrition as like a giant nerd.

Like, I mean, your level of curiosity is mind-blowing. Like, we've— most of our guests are founders of whatever their respective field is, but like, I can just see the way you talk about this. You're like, I, I sat there for hours until I could just like figure out this one thing because I was so personally curious about it.

Yeah, you got to be. I think curiosity is like—

It radiates.

Yeah, I think that's one thing we look for in people that we hire is just like curiosity. Yeah, you guys are super curious. You can't teach that in someone. I think that's just like a way of being. It's like you can almost feel the energy within a couple of minutes of meeting someone, right? When you start talking about anything, like a curious person, you're always curious. If you're trying to make a point, you're just as curious what the other side is. And like, it's never enough to like just know the answer. You wanna know like how someone came about the answer. Like what's the way that like, what's the way that you got there? What's the other ways that you could have gotten there? Like curious people, like their mind just works in a certain way. They're not trying to like win every argument. They're trying to understand why they might be wrong and like what else there is to know out there. So it's, I don't know, it's an energy you can pick up pretty quickly people actually.

The most confusing thing is when you sit down with someone at a meeting or like you just got introduced and they'll ask you like 1 or 2 very surface-level questions and that's it. And I'm like, do you have no interest in like how I got here, what I'm doing, or even like what about your day? Like, what are you thinking about?

Yeah.

And when those conversations are so one-sided, it's like, is this— maybe you just didn't sleep well or like have your ketones this morning. Yeah. But sometimes when you don't meet very, very curious people and you especially hang around with like yourselves, hang around with you guys all day. Yeah, it's so different, and it fundamentally does not make sense, like how you cannot be curious about the world.

I mean, I can't hang around people that don't intellectually stimulate me, and I'm very outspoken about that. Like, I always say that I hate stupid people. It's kind of rude to say that out loud, but like, if, if we can't talk about things that are stimulating or there's no depth to it, like, I don't want to waste my time anymore. Because I feel like you guys can relate to this when you're a founder and you're busy enough if you're going to choose to spend time talking to someone or acting with someone, you want to actually enjoy it.

Yeah.

And that, to me, like, the curiosity and the intellectual depth is what I need to have a conversation that I can come away from, be like, wow, that was interesting. Hence the reason we started a podcast.

Yeah. One of the things that took me some getting used to, like, wrap my head around, was like that a lot of my conversations end up being about work. And earlier in my career, I felt like bad about that, like, oh, shouldn't I have more friends that I just like goof off with, like I did, I don't know, maybe more in college. I had just more like goof-off friends. And as I got more into startups, entrepreneurship, like a lot of my conversation, a lot of like hanging out with people was like working together or jamming or talking about what they're working on. And I was like, man, like, should it be that way? And I actually came around to like, no, actually, like working and building stuff with people and being intellectually curious of people is a great way to relate with people. Like just sitting down to— and there's nothing wrong with it, I don't want to knock it, but like just like sitting down to watch a basketball game, the, the level of, I guess, like intellectual curiosity that comes from that is like, it's just like not as fun to me. Like it's— I like, you know, going to a basketball game is like a context, but then like you always end up kind of talking about, for me at least, like like what you're working on and going into that more like intellectual level around what we're all building and like being cool with that and seeing that that's actually really dope. Like if you're building something really exciting and interesting, like I don't know if you're like, we're not Steve Jobs, but like you like to think that Steve Jobs is like obsessed with iPhone, right? And like every conversation, every input in his life, he's thinking about like the iPhone in some ways, like going grocery shopping, he's like, oh, how could iPhone make this better? Like, I don't think that Steve Jobs is spending a lot of time, like, just goofing off, probably like enough to kind of let the steam out of the system. But then it's like back to work. And like, I don't think he was hanging out with dumb people. Like, he was like, you're saying it's like, I think he was— he probably really biased towards like not only just like the smartest people, like who's the smartest people that I could be talking to, working with, partnering with.

I think part of that is also not just curiosity and the people that you want to hang out with or you want to hang out with. But it's, it's the ambition and discipline as well. But I feel like a lot of it is the optimism too. Like, it's nice to hang out with really optimistic people who are also curious and really smart and ambitious. That's like the nice to have. But I think it's just way more fun to hang around with like a lot of optimists all day. Like, even when something is crashing and burning in your business, you're like, this sucks, but we'll fix it. I'm still excited about the direction we're going. Even on like really hard days, most founders I know are incredibly optimistic. Optimistic people.

Yeah, but I think it's delusional optimism most of the time because it's really, it's really hard to be a founder, I think, and to do something really meaningful and impactful if you're not a little bit delusional. Because odds are a lot of people along the way thought you were crazy.

Definitely.

And you have to be willing to accept that not everyone agrees with your view, but you stay optimistic despite, you know, the first 10 investors you talk to, or you tell your parents or your siblings or whatever, like, oh, I'm putting ketone in a bottle. I'm sure the first person you said that to is like, dude, are you good? Like, do you want to talk about this? I don't know what you're talking about. Like, no, no, trust me. Like, I really am, right? Now you're sitting here and those people are like, oh, you're a genius. It's like, yeah, but you didn't tell me that like the first time I told you about my idea.

You got to be really comfortable with going against the grain, and I think that's hard to bake into people. I think— I don't know about you guys, but I was definitely, uh, outcast in certain ways growing up. Like, I was just like the loud kid, or like I would always just like accidentally get in trouble. My teachers thought I was kind of goofy. Like I get in trouble because I'd be like standing at my desk and now we all, now we all have standing desks. Like, like I, I remember this one time, this one time I remember in 5th grade math class.

We're going back. Oh, I love this.

Let's go.

I remember like my, my teacher was teaching like rate, like how, like how to do like, you know, miles per hour, like rate math for 5th graders. And she was doing it wrong. Because, you know, it's like miles divided by hours or like meters divided by seconds. She had— she had everyone like running in the hallway like a certain strip and like timing them. And she was having them divide their time by distance. So like inverting the equation. And I was like, you're wrong. I remember arguing with her and I remember I got detention and I remember like proving out. I wrote on it. I like proved out in my whatever fifth grade way. I was like, no, like, look, like it is this way. And I like handed her and I still got detention because like, oh, well, you might be right, but like the way you said it, it's like We need to clip this and post this.

Like, this is Entrepreneurship 101. It's like stepping outside the sandbox of these made-up rules.

Yeah. And just being willing to be like, I think you're wrong. And like, I just being, being willing to like say that like, yeah, wrong thing that like within the context that you're in is wrong. And yeah, I think you got to be comfortable with it. And I mean, it's crazy, right? Because like, I think one of the craziest things that entrepreneurs like, I think you get comfortable with like being that kind of solitary voice, like the 1 in 10 people in a room that's like has a certain direction and everyone else thinks it's wrong. You got to be willing to do that even like with your execs and with your like even with the people like who buy into your vision because you're always kind of like leapfrog yourself in a way like and, and when you're, when you get comfortable with that being that like minority voice, what's really hard is like knowing when to like trust other people. Like, because it can be very easy to be like, you know, we're going to reinvent our HR system and we're going to reinvent like the way that we run our e-commerce store and we're going to— and like, there's a lot of—

should all be doing that, reinventing the e-com store.

Exactly.

There's a lot of— well, there's— yeah, okay, no, I'm just kidding. There's a lot of things, there's a lot of things that also as an entrepreneur you need to be doing just like the normal way, and you need to find like a trusted industry vet and just like do it the normal way. Like 80% of your business should be like vanilla, boring, like just use the most boring old boomer shit that just like works. Tried and true. Like you don't want like if every part of your startup is just like working with other startups and like duct tape together, it's like, no, you also just actually need to like use QuickBooks or something. Like you also just need like the kind of like boring institutional but like tried and true stuff. Like 80% of your business should be like really boring so that the 20% that's like like we got to be very innovative on like ketones, then like marketing, finding alpha on like marketing to like get the word out there and like everything else. Like, yeah, I'm just trying to make it as like normie as possible.

It's really, it's really good feedback. I think something that I always say is like expedite your learning curve by talking to someone who's been there and done that before.

Yeah.

Yeah. Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel on something that isn't broken?

Yeah, totally.

I don't think enough people do that. I think the only, the only gray area is maybe like when you're early on in the spirit of being scrappy, there's like certain tools that are maybe too expensive. And so you're trying to do things a little bit differently. But broadly speaking, it's like the last 15 to 20% of innovation that actually makes the impact. Don't like defeat yourself because you tried to reinvent something that didn't need to be changed.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I think it's easy as a young entrepreneur who's like really iconoclastic and you're down to go against the grain, like, okay, you've got that, that vibe to like there's, there is alpha all around you. Like there is like opportunity to improve every part of everything. It is true. Like But you're going to be exhausted. And there's probably a part of your business that's why you really need to exist and what you're really there to disrupt. And the other things, while you could disrupt, you don't necessarily create the most value there. You create the most value on the vector of what your business exists to really disrupt.

What that innovation is.

Right, right. And then on the other areas, like, I'm on my next business, trust me. I want to disrupt the way that brick-and-mortar retailer— like the fundamental integration between brick-and-mortar retail and brands. And there's just fax machines and shit still involved. There's a lot going on there. But I'm not in a spot right now to innovate that entirely, because I need to innovate on ketones as a nutritional primitive, and then just the marketing, getting word out there about that. Innovate on like the type of rubber in the tires of the trucks that are bringing ketones to stores right now, right? Like, that's not the— that's not the level of innovation that I can do right now. So I think, I think it's really important to focus like what's like the real thing that you exist to do in this— that this company exists to do, and focus there. And then like be more okay with leaving some, you know, alpha.

Yeah.

Aside for the other aspects of the business and like letting it be more vanilla.

Yeah, it seems like you're painting a picture of like that, that great Midwit meme curve.

Yeah.

Of like people in the middle and then people on the— you've seen this, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like for every part of the business that should be vanilla.

Yeah.

Most founders go through like, I'm going to innovate one-on-ones and then it's like, just have regular one-on-ones. Yeah, just like an agenda.

Just, just talk to them. But I want to touch on something.

You're so good.

I want to touch on something that you were talking about, though. Just this concept of how you have to, like, embody the problem you're solving. Yeah. I want you to speak a little bit to your own habits. I know you're a marathoner, you're a biohacker, you do all those things. I want to talk about some of those habits that you have and then how that has coincided with your ability to like get some of the people in this ecosystem to use your product. Because I know you talk about like marketing innovation is a huge piece of what you need to do. But I think a lot of that is you're putting yourself in the right situations to be around those people that you want to be talking about your product.

Yeah, it's true. I meet so many people on just like 14-mile runs or long bike rides. That's a lot. Like, I'm in a couple of weeks, I'm going to France to— we work with one of the biggest teams in the Tour de France. They actually won the last couple of years. And so I'm going to be going to France. We're doing a lot of research, continued research on ketones for different physiology measures within pro cycling. And like, you got to be able to like get on a bike and I'm not like a pro cyclist level, but you gotta be like, you gotta be like in the culture and like you gotta be able to kind of suit up and do the thing. Um, and yeah, we work with a lot of athletes. A lot of what works for us is working with like authentic athletes, scientists, doctors, and you can't really like fake your way in there. You gotta be able to actually engage at like some level, right? Like you don't have to be an Olympic marathoner, but I have to know enough about running to be able to like, I don't— just like be in the scene. Yeah, speak the same language with like Des Linden, who's represented Team USA at the last two Olympics, like you gotta— and won Boston Marathon. She's an awesome, awesome lady. Um, you got to be able to like be in the scene, and you can't fake that. And I think that's what I always think about, like what can we do that, you know, uh, Pepsi or Gatorade or whatever can't do? Like, like a brand manager at whatever like large mega global corp can't do is like they're not gonna have that authenticity of doing like an all-day ruck with like 20 other founders or other like, you know, stud athlete creator types that have like great reach and great platforms around them. Like you have to be able to, I think about that like Pepsi, Gatorade, they can outspend us like 1,000 to 1, but like they're not necessarily in the scene integrated the way that I can be. So it's like, you know, you got to zig where they zag, and you got to be able to like, like have that— I keep saying authenticity— just like be in the actual community. I, I mean, I think there's a lot around just authenticity in general. Like one realization I had that I think is like one I'll keep for life is like all the great brands are from somewhere. Like all the great consumer brands, they have an origin story. And this is starting to be a lens for how I look at every single brand, if I'm like, you know, seed investing or just like trying to assess if it's going to go anywhere, is like, I don't care where you're from and I don't need to be from the same spot as you. But every great brand I've seen, it's from somewhere. It's that feeling of like when people wear Patagonia or North Face jackets like around Manhattan, like they're not on a mountain right now. Like, but those, those brands feel like they are from like actual outdoors community. And so that, yeah, when you need something to bundle up in the cold, like, you're gonna go to those brands. And that's the analogy I would say that like every brand needs. Like, you need to be from somewhere. And like, not everyone's gonna go climb a mountain, but like, like, for us, it's like we come from this high-performance endurance athlete world. I don't expect everyone to be a high-performance endurance athlete, but I expect that's enough of an origin story that we can like build out. And then when the product is like on the shelf at a 7-Eleven, there's this like believability to where you guys are from. Like RXBAR started with CrossFitters, right? Not every single person eating an RXBAR today is like mega CrossFit athlete, but like you believe that it's like healthy and like good, just sound fundamental ingredients because it has that kind of origin authenticity of where it's from. That's just something I look for on, on every brand. I was like, is there that authenticity, that origin story And again, I don't care, like, it doesn't matter what. I look at not the, it doesn't matter like what direction the, it doesn't matter where it's from, it matters how loud it is. That's what I really look for.

Yeah.

How have you thought about, especially as you guys launch new SKUs now, I want you to tell us more about kind of like product roadmap from what you can tell us.

Yeah.

From your lens, I know it kind of comes from that culture if I'm talking to you of like high performance. Distance runners or marathoners or cyclists. But if someone had never seen an ad for Ketone IQ and maybe just like went on the landing page and like quickly looked at the backstory, same question to you is where do you think they would get that immediate feel from? Is it these are like high performers down in Miami on the beach, or is this like Silicon Valley nerds in a lab?

What do I think the first impression would be? Yeah, I think— I mean, I think it would be like athletes who also are high performing at work, like people who maybe are doing high rocks or doing a marathon or doing this, that, and like also just take their rest of their life, like their family, their job, all that stuff pretty seriously. A lot of times you see that, right, with like high performing athletes. A lot of times like people take care, really good care of their bodies, is like the kind of foundation of taking care of the rest of their lives, their family, their career, their community around them. So I see it as integrated. It's like maybe the first thing you might see is jacked people drinking ketones and running around doing stuff. And I would hope that people would see it's a level or two deeper. It's not just total jock brand. It's like there is some thoughtful— and then yeah, there's the science too. What we're doing is very new and inventive and precise. And that it would hopefully go from that just visceral, physical to like more of a like cerebral, like, okay, this is like more thoughtful than just like a sports nutrition brand. Yeah.

When you think about your identity, like first thing in the morning, is your priority what am I eating, what's my nutrition, where am I going for a run, or is it company, or do they happen at the same time?

The first thing these days I really think about every day is the run. Like, I definitely— I need to run every day. I'm in a big marathon build too. And I just— every day, like, it's just— that is like the top checkbox that needs to get checked. And so I really need to do it first thing in the day. If I haven't done— I'm like thinking about like today, like we started kind of early here.

When he texted me to coordinate this time, he's like, yeah, like 8:30 works, but can I run and then come back and shower after before I like go to the airport? I was like, yeah, we'll make it happen.

Yeah, because like, it's— I'm on West Coast time still a little bit. So it's like, you know, I'm not complaining or anything. It was just like 5 a.m. So if I were to run earlier before this podcast, it would have been like very, very early. So I'm like, okay, let me do this podcast as the first thing of the day. But then that means my run's not the first thing of the day, which means like it's got to be the second thing of the day. And then because like, yeah, the worst is like if I don't— if I somehow didn't run after this and then I got on my flight. Oh man. Like, because I'm going to run. Like, that's like the non-negotiable is like And then, OK, I'm going to fly to LA. And then I'm going to land at 8:00 PM. And then, OK, I'm going to be running at like 9:00, 10:00 PM, which I've done. But then it's like, I don't know, you don't sleep that well when you run late. So anyway, I'm always trying to— like, the first thing of the day is like, I got to run. I got to get my run. And I think a lot of runners and probably just fitness people can empathize with that. Like, you got to get your activity in every day.

What are the other non-negotiables? I have to imagine you have a handful of someone who's deep into the biohacking wellness world.

Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, running is a big one. As far as like other just health and wellness stuff or like work related to—

like, health and wellness is the one I'm most curious about. Yeah, whether it's diet, sleep, devices, meditation, anything.

I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm really big on the like just protein, like getting your 1 gram per kilogram of body weight, um, minimum. Um, and that's a big one. I think even a lot of runners don't really look into it that much, but I think it's a lot bigger in the like bodybuilding, CrossFit world. But I think in general, just like, got to eat enough protein. There's generally not enough protein in like most of the things that we eat because it's expensive, especially like high quality protein.

Is it per pound or kilogram?

It's per pound. Sorry, I misstated it. It's like 1 gram— sorry, it switches from metric to— is 1 gram per pound, or like, it's like 0.7 to 1 grams per pound. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I forget what it is per kilogram.

I was like, am I doing— have been— have I been doing this wrong?

And are you— do you measure that, or you just kind of know at this point when, just based on what you normally consume, when you're hitting your like quota, I guess?

Yeah, I— at this point I know-ish, cuz it's like, oh, this protein shake has 30 grams. I know like Yeah, like just general measures of like what I'm having in my life. But I think it's good to like measure it out, write it down, get a sense of it for, for, you know, like I think a lot of biohacks are that way. It's like measure it for a couple of weeks until you get like a good sense of it and then, and then, you know, um, so yeah, protein's good. And then yeah, a few different supplements I like to just have every day. I think, you know, omega-3 is probably the one of the best, most researched supplements just for cognitive health. Um, I, I just, I do like, uh, Nordic.

Yeah, whatever. Like, that's one of the ones, one of my biohacker friends, that was the first supplement he told me to take. Yeah, was omega-3s.

Do you notice a difference in how your brain functions or your body function?

I feel like just better mood. Yeah, really? Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Um, and I think there's also a lot of just like compounding long-term benefit. I don't think it's meant as like immediate acute. But I do feel like if I— if I— I don't know, these days I just have it every day. But if I like don't have it for a few days because I like forgot at home, I'm traveling, um, when I get back to it, I do feel a lot better. Yeah.

What about sleep? You seem like a good person to ask about sleep.

Yeah, you got to sleep really well. Yeah.

Like, how long do you sleep on average? And then I'm curious if you use any of the like mouth tape, nose strips, air filters. I'm sure you got a routine.

I could see it.

Yeah, you got to do it. You gotta get your 8 hours in, definitely.

8 hours, non-negotiable.

Do you actually do that? Like, you're good about hitting your 8 hours?

Yeah, yeah. I do this, like, on my phone. I have, like, a red mode. Like, you can—

Oh, you triple tap?

Yeah, you triple tap and hit the red mode. So I'll put that on, like, a few hours before going to bed. Sometimes I'll leave it on in the morning, too. I find it's just generally good for, like, using your phone less. Do stuff with your phone, obviously, like mission-critical stuff, call an Uber, whatever, but you're not as like hooked in. It just like kind of looks like shit, like you're just not as drawn to it. And then yeah, putting that on like before bedtime, putting on— I definitely wear the BlueBlockers. Like, that's a big one. If I'm not— if I'm looking at just like straight, just raw dogging blue light, like it's going to take me an hour, hour and a half to ramp down from there.

Interesting.

And so I just know— I just like feel like if I— if I'm like go from like just work mode to like trying to lie in bed, I'm going to be like just spinning for an hour, hour and a half. So blue blockers and then like the little phone trick, that, that stuff definitely helps. So like, yeah, there's this whole like ramp down. Magnesium has been really helpful for me in going to sleep. Um, that's been a big one for me. I don't know, I partly because I just train a lot, I'm always just like running, sweating, that like electrolytes really helpful. But magnesium in particular I think is helpful for— I mean, just research on it is helpful for sleep. Um, that's been a game changer for me, I think. Yeah.

Are you on the AG1 train?

I like AG1. Yeah. Um, I don't— I think it's good. I think it's good in the sense of like, not— if you're not always good about having like your green vegetables every day, like it's good to make sure you're at least getting some. Um, yeah, I don't feel like a giant shift from it, but it like, it seems like it's good. Like drinking some green liquid, getting like just like a minimum amount of like plant material in your system.

Probably a good thing.

Probably a good thing.

I'm curious what other brands right now— they can be health and wellness brands or in other categories.

Yeah.

That are a bit on the younger side, like 2, 3, 4 years old, maybe that kind of grew at a similar pace as you guys. What are some specific brand or founders that you love the products or you just really respect?

In the, like, nutrition space in particular.

Maybe just like consumer health and wellness, or just like friends of yours.

Yeah, I mean, I— we were talking earlier about like Cadence, the new like electrolyte drink that Ross— big— I like what they're doing over there. Ross, a good friend. Um, so I was still thinking about mouth tape because you're asking about like sleep routine. Um, what—

Hostage Tape is that brand that's just blown up.

Yeah, there's Hostage Tape, and then I got I'm friends with Lauren at Skinny Confidential, and they also have mouth tape, but it's like mouth tape for girlies. So it's like pink and like has kind of like lip outline to it. And it's actually really interesting, dude. I think, I think it's real. I think just side note on biohacking world is like, I think a lot of women are like just hardcore biohackers, but they don't call it that. Like you talk to your average, talk, talk to the ladies, like the amount of science they do, especially when they hit like 30, like that they start doing on like their skincare and their like nutrition and their this or that. Like they're hardcore on the biohacking. And then like, I think a lot of, a lot of guys like, oh, I started taking colostrum once and then they're like a biohacker. And I just think it's interesting that a lot of women, partly because I think a lot of like the beauty wellness routines kind of bleed into like health world. And I think a lot of times just because of how in touch they are with like their hormones and like their, their monthly cycle. I think a lot of times women are low-key biohackers without calling themselves biohackers in a way like that. Um, I think a lot of men, if they were at that same level of body aware, they would definitely consider themselves like pretty, pretty biohacker. Um, mouth tape, really good. When breathing through your nose, for sure. Like that's for sure really helpful. For sure. Yeah, you increase nitric oxide production, which helps your body transport oxygen around. It activates parasympathetic system. So basically you're like rest and relax system. You're just like a way more calm human being when you nose breathe. Really helpful for sleep. I noticed a big difference. I— when I started, I did the nose tape or the mouth tape for a, a few weeks and then noticed I just didn't need it anymore. I feel that way about a lot of biohacks, like Um, you can like militantly measure your sleep for a few weeks and then you kind of learn most of the things and then you don't need to militantly measure your sleep every day for the rest of your life necessarily. I think a lot of biohacks, you can kind of like do it for some time. You can measure your blood glucose for a stretch, get the intuition around like, oh yeah, like this has— what has more sugar? What has less sugar? What do I feel good? Oh, when I feel like this kind of antsy jittery thing, it's because my blood sugar is really high. I don't like feeling that way. I feel that way because my blood sugar is high. Oh, it's because I just ate like XYZ with high sugar. Let me not do that anymore. I think a lot of biohacks, you can do it for a few weeks and it's not necessarily a forever thing. You kind of update the firmware of your own brain. Like you measure your sleep for a few weeks, you get you, okay, let me install blackout curtains. Oh wow, I see when I drink booze, I lose 20 points of sleep quality. Oh, when I have sugar before bedtime, that I lose 20 points of sleep quality, whatever. Like you see all the things, you develop all the intuition, and then you can like you just know those things. You don't have to necessarily do it every day for the rest of your life. I think there's a lot of biohacks that fall into that where you kind of like develop the muscle from having done it. So yeah, we were talking about mouth tape. Like, I think if you can survive for a few weeks with like mouth tape on, then like you can— you're— you can probably trust yourself to like keep your mouth shut at night and that if you shut your mouth when you go to sleep, it's going to stay shut till the morning, even without mouth tape.

It's like your philosophy on planning. What it was— plan— what is it? Planning is worthless but necessary.

Did I say that?

Yeah. That was a quote of yours.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Plans are worthless but absolutely necessary. But planning is— yeah, it's like an Eisenhower quote that I love. Yeah. Plan something like whatever. I was like, why are we talking about this?

The way that I was interpreting it was like you're talking about these different habits and it's like once you break through it, you're like, all right, we don't need it anymore. Like, I know what I need to do.

Yeah, yeah, that is like in the— like, I guess that quote's about like in the art of planning, you like think through all of the things and then like, yeah, you're— you kind of have this plan, but then it's the fact you've thought through it and then like once your plan confronts reality, it's— something's going to change. And then like you can't just be married to the plan anymore, but you got to be married to the— like the act of planning is what matters, not just like the specific plan. Yeah.

The other thing I wanted to talk about was like, obviously the podcast is called Turning Pro and it's double-clicking into the moments in your life where you feel like things kind of went to the next level. I feel like you've accomplished a lot so far with this business and what you've done in your career. I'm curious, looking back, is there one or two moments when you're like, that, that was the moment when I looked in the mirror, I was like, wow, things are like really starting to take off?

For me, I— it was only like halfway through the, the founder journey that I like started really making content and like really getting out there as this like content creator. And I think that was a big turning moment for me where like people really cared what I had to say. And that like when I started, I started showing up to events and people kind of knew me. That was, that was interesting. Like when people just— that feeling like someone knows you off the internet, like you haven't met them before in real life, but you have some reputation. And like it's, it's this interesting asymmetry where like they know you they know like this. I don't know, I've done like some silly shit, like, um, like I've worn like a giant blow-up inflatable Ketone IQ suit and like run a marathon in it. Like people just like know these things.

I've not seen that one.

I have not seen that. That's on your Instagram?

Yeah, yeah. So like people like know these things about me, and then I'm like, I'm always very curious to get to know them because I'm like, well, I want to know like, you know, all this stuff about me. Like, I want to get to know you now. And I think, I think that was a turning moment for me where I just like show up at like marathon expos and like just different industry, like whether like CPG events or different like metabolic health summit, things like that. And people knew me and I didn't know them yet. And that was a big— that's probably a big—

like, that is the best thing for people listening. I, I mean, I feel like I've been screaming this for so long and just like hit post. People care way too much. And I, I'm so guilty of this in certain instances, but like, posting content has changed my life. Like, the, the people that you meet, the opportunities that come from it, the increased surface area, whatever you're building or whatever you're working on, by putting something out into the world to let people who are meant to gravitate towards it have the opportunity to do so. Yeah, I think has been really life-changing. And I think a lot of people are so self-conscious about being judged for like for posting things online. And a lot of people don't do it because of that.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, talks about this really well is Zach Pogrobsky. Yeah, he's been on the pod, right?

Yeah.

Um, yeah, it's just like that amount of vulnerability. Like, yeah, what— why do you think everyone is so, I guess, shy about it? Like, you know, you know, as an entrepreneur, like something you really need to do, but it's like still hard to press the post button.

The fear of failure.

Failure.

Yeah, I think it's like the fear of failure. It's like your biggest fear is like you have your birthday party and no one shows up. It's like you post something on the internet and no one acknowledged it or no one likes it, and then there's people who you think are talking about you or judging you. But I— the way that I've gotten over that hump is the same way around building a company, is like everyone thinks you're crazy for this silly idea that you have until it's not crazy anymore, and then all of a sudden everyone's like, wow, that's so cool. I think it's the same with posting content. It's like You posted your first video at some point when you had very few followers.

Yeah.

And now you have an audience, and now when you post it, it seems more socially acceptable because like, oh, there's people paying attention or waiting for this. But it's not always like that. You got to get there.

You got to get there. I think the ultimate like dream state of where you want to be as a creator is that whatever you post, people care about. People literally just care about your voice. If you're like Kim Kardashian, like, or Taylor Swift, you can talk about anything and people will care because they just literally care like what you're doing.

Doing.

That's like the ultimate dream. I think it's very hard to do that on day one and just talk about what you had for lunch and have that go viral. Um, I think it's very unlikely. I think there's this growth curve to like— I think you got to start and like really get good at a niche, an area. Like, like for me, it's like a mix of like running, biohacking, entrepreneurship. Like, stay within a really tight zone of like where you're one of the best in the world, one of the most like interesting people in the world and like develop there. And I think that can be hard for a lot of entrepreneurs. It feels very constraining. It's like, well, I'm this whole person, like 360 degrees of this and that. It's like, yeah, but maybe you're like random weird memes. Like keep that for the group chat with the boys or not. I mean, if it were like makeup, if that's really where you're special, like make that your full, like, you know, full send on your public persona. But like generally, like you find an area or two that you're like really good at and you go really long on those. And then you can— then you start like branching out more broadly from there. But I always think about just like, you got to create as much value. I'm always like— they— when they say that, you know, you want to like punch through the target, I'm always not just trying to make the content, I'm trying to make a content that like someone's gonna share. Not just watch it and like it, but I'm really always thinking about like, what's something that someone's gonna share? Because if you— if you get the share, you get— you're gonna get the views and the likes and all the other things that that you're trying to get out of content. It's like, why believably is this thing that you're making— is someone gonna like share with someone else? So I'm always trying to like—

that's such a fascinating perspective. I mean, I know a lot of content creators. I've never heard one talk about optimizing for share versus comments and likes. But to your point, the likes and the comments are the byproduct of the share if it's going and it's good.

Yeah. And I'm not world expert on this. I like— I'm just like, I'm on my journey, you know. I'm just like figuring it out, like And I think that the— why do people share things? Usually because it's like educational or it's like very— it's like funny, relatable, like, haha, this happened to us, or like, haha, this is you, like, um, or just educational. It's like, wow, this is a really good tip, like, you should know this. Um, and so yeah, trying to like really deliver value. And then I think you gotta just like— I mean, it's— I see it as like pretty asymmetric upside where like if it's if you're saying like, oh, you make content, no one cares. Like, no one cares then. Like, no one actually saw that no one saw it. Very few people saw that that thing was a dud and it doesn't matter. You can just roll off of it. People are going to— everyone's going to see the thing that everyone sees, like the thing that goes viral, it gets a million views. Like, like, it's asymmetric in the sense that like the things that don't do well, no one cares, and things that do well do like phenomenally well. So it's not like you are— it's not like a coin flip where you're like, oh, heads I win $1,000, tails I win I lose $1,000. It's a coin flip, except it like, it's like heads you win $1,000 and tails like flip again tomorrow and you learn from it.

Yeah, you can get better at it. There's this great quote going viral on Twitter. I don't know if you guys saw it. Like, everything you want is on the other side of being cringe on the internet for 6 months.

I completely agree. Oh man, I, I mean, I'm still in my cringe mode.

I don't even know when you just made yourself cringe thinking about you say that quote.

No, it's like, like, I mean, it's so true, right? Like there's, there's so much that you got to be able to like— like what? I mean, what exactly happens there when like, do you stop being cringe or does like society just come to accept your cringe as like acceptable?

100% the latter. 100%. Like you're not like— because think about it, if you start making content and people grasp what you're doing, you're not going to stop doing the thing that got you to where you are. Yeah, you're just making more of it. You're making more people—

more people are—

more people are like acknowledging it. In participating in it.

Yeah, but you're— you may be like a little bit more polished, a little bit better at delivery, maybe better hooks, better— but I like— I agree, like you're basically the same person, but that like now people like your weird way of doing it. Like what's that guy Daniel Mac runs around like, oh, nice car, what'd you do for a living?

Yeah, and it's— that's still what he's doing.

That's still what he's doing. He's— yeah, he's maybe gotten a little bit better at it, but like there was probably super cringe at the start, right? Like he's probably like begging his friend with a G-Wagon to like roll up somewhere and so you can ask him like, oh, nice car, what do you do for a living? And then like, you know what I mean? It's like there's some like cringe to that, but, but now it's like it's seen as cool. Yeah, yeah.

When I see the video, my, my favorite content, you know, this is like, uh, is George Heaton from Represent, their videos, and now Ross's videos for Cadence. I think that's like the focus now in the podcast that he's doing. If you saw someone that I didn't know their face before and saw some of those videos because they're really kind of serious and intense and kind of like dark and black and white, I mean, my immediate reaction would be like, this is kind of cringe. But because I've watched a few and they just keep doing it, you kind of just accept it. Like, that's your voice and that's your style. And then now when I see it, I'm like, that's so cool. But if it was someone else, I'd be like, this is so weird. Like, I'm not going to watch this.

Yeah, it's so interesting. I think cringe is just like that feeling of like, oh, this is a little bit outside of the norm. But then that's exactly what you want to be if you're trying to develop your own voice.

That's how you make impact. Yeah, yeah, you go against the grain. This is awesome, man. I really appreciate you coming on. This is one of my favorite conversations we've had to date. Do you want to just look at the camera, let everyone know where they could find you, what you're working on?

Hey, I'm Michael Brandt. You can find me, um, @MichaelDBrant on social media, Instagram, Twitter. And my company is called Ketone IQ. You can check us out at ketone.com. And yeah, drop a line. Love hearing what you're up to. If you try the product or if you're an entrepreneur, health, wellness, biohacker type person, just, yeah, love hearing from people and what you're up to.

Awesome.

Thanks for coming on, man.

It's fun. Great.

Real good.