#039: How to Build Successful Brands: Emmett Shine Shares His Creative Process and Business Insights

You're never going to achieve perfection, but it's the pursuit of it that is where you really embrace the journey. But I was like, at the same time, you can't be hard on yourself, right? So I think it's always important to challenge yourself and go and try to be your best and aim more for excellence than I guess for perfection in some ways.

Emmett Shine is an innovative entrepreneur and designer known for his unique approach to brand building and creative direction. As the co-founder of Gin Lane, Pattern Brands, and Little Planes, he has transformed the landscape of digital and physical products through his exceptional vision and dedication. In this episode of Turning Pro, we explore Emmett's fascinating journey from the early days of Gin Lane to his latest ventures. Emmett shares insights on his creative process, the importance of surrounding yourself with talented individuals, and his relentless pursuit of excellence. We delve into how Emmett balances creativity with business acumen, his experiences working with high-profile clients, and the lessons he has learned along the way.

Welcome back to Turning Pro, Season 2, Episode 2. Today we have Emmett Shine, who is the co-founder of Gin Lane, Pattern Brands, and Little Planes. Thanks for joining us today, Emmett.

Yeah, rock and roll. What up, man?

You've accomplished a lot. It's actually— I'll be the first to say this, I think there's a lot of entrepreneurs who aspire to do what you've already accomplished in their entire career, which you've done in like a very condensed amount of time. I want to dig into your story, but I also just like want to understand where this curiosity and this bias for action comes from, because it's truly admirable from the outside looking in.

Yeah, I really appreciate it. I mean, I, I think I like definitely try to, you know, be humble every day. And I was talking to a friend yesterday for— we went to Balthazar for breakfast, and I was like, yo, this is kind of like we're like in a movie, you know? Like, it's just a very New York classic, and he has a number of successful restaurants and bars, and he was just like, dude, I still don't feel like I'm, you know, successful. And by all outside looking in metrics, he's quite successful. And I was like, look, it's really good. Like, uh, I like the phrase of— or the trademark or whatever from Lexus— like, the relentless, relentless pursuit of perfection. You're never gonna achieve perfection, but it's the pursuit of it that is where you really embrace the journey. But I was like, at the same time, you can't be hard on yourself, right? So I think it's always important to challenge yourself and go and try to be your best and aim more for excellence than, I guess, for perfection in some ways. So I think for myself, I've always been really curious, and then I never thought of myself as someone who was really good at anything until kind of doing Jin Lane stuff in my mid-20s. So I'm pretty calcified as adult, as a human, of not thinking I'm really good at anything. And then there was a perception years later that I was good at something that it just doesn't really stick. So I don't really think about it. I just try to more inwardly focus on doing my best on whatever it is that I'm trying to do.

Do you feel like you find fulfillment when you accomplish things, or is it really just— I mean, it's all perception of what other people deem to be an accomplishment maybe isn't as big of one in your eyes.

So you'll hear me talk, I'm kind of almost like Google, Google image search of like, uh, like guidance counselor quotes or something, you know.

But I keep them rolling.

Yeah, but I, I, and I—

everyone get your notebook out if you're listening.

I talk about the same stuff all the time, but I love the guy, passed away recently, his name is, is crazy but it's awesome, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. And he wrote Flow, like all about flow, flow states, etc. And athletes call it being in the zone, but he kind of coined the concept from like a almost scientific perspective. And a simple like rubric for it is like the top right quadrant is where the challenge and the skill are at the highest level meeting. So, and then if you read like Atomic Habits with, you know, James Clear or whatever, it's like you're not going to be good at some things. He talks about like Michael Phelps and this runner, you know, Michael Phelps shouldn't be like a marathon runner. His body naturally should be like a swimmer, right? So it's like you got to kind of find what like your nature-nurture makes you good at, which I think happens by like just trying and testing stuff. But if you find something that you're like, yo, I kind of enjoy this, it's kind of coming easy to me, that's where you double down and that's where you work really hard and that's where you try to hit that top quadrant of like fine-tuning your skills.

I want to talk about the decision to go from— because I know you're still involved with Pattern pretty intimately, um, and starting Little Planes Uni Studio, which I want to hear more about. But that decision sounds like a lot of what you're talking about, which is being honest with yourself about when you're in flow and what you really like to do. But walk us through that decision.

I guess I like doing these talks and stuff, and you were talking about how you learn a lot from conversations, right? So I always think if there's someone that's kind of listening that like could use a little spark of inspiration or whatever, I less am, you know, like, yo, I did this, and more like, hey, here are lessons I've kind of learned. And I think you bring up a good point, which is like listening to yourself. And it's— it's— I, I was saying yesterday at the breakfast with the guy, I was like, our worst critics are in us. It's not what someone thinks in our family or on Twitter or whatever. There's little voices we have, and some of the little voices are like, yo, do it, get this penthouse, do turning pro, start this business. And, and when you listen to them, it feels really good. But sometimes there's little voices which is like, yo, this isn't worth it, this isn't going well, don't do this. Like, and those are the ones I think that like you can't swat away, you got to have a conversation with. And I think from Jin Lane going into Pattern, that was a conversation with myself and with my partners of, hey, I think there's something more out there let's try it. And to the, the outside world, it seemed kind of crazy. Oh, we're this cool agency and then we just stopped it all and we're gonna go try to do something. And in some regards, me wanting a little bit of an expansion of what I was doing to start almost a Gin Lane 2.0 called Little Planes while Pattern is outside in doing really well, it's the same conversation of me just internally being like, I miss something. It doesn't mean that The work isn't great, the people aren't great. I just have to listen to that rubric of my— are my skills and the challenges really meeting every day? Because if they're not, then a piece of me doesn't feel totally fulfilled.

And what is that thing that you missed that you're trying to go back to find?

I really love the magician-ness of turning ethereal concepts into something. And I would more flatten that to be like launching or branding ideas and businesses. And Pattern has gotten to a place where we own and operate, you know, uh, over a half dozen home good D2C e-com brands. We built two, we've acquired like six, and there's a lot of steady state. How do you think about in 2024 post-COVID having a global decentralized asynchronous software-first creative and marketing team that's lean and cost effective so we can be profitable as an organization. Because anyone that does any business stuff knows you got to really be focusing on your bottom line the last few years. And that's what we've done. And we've done a really good job at it. And so I just don't think my rubric of the top right is being a world-class manager, a world-class operator. I'm just not world-class at it. I think I'm good at it. And I think my two partners are like, okay, I'm at like, you know, you're really good at a few things, but like, the game has changed. This is a lot more right now about operating and managing. And I'm like, okay, I'm a soldier, I'll, I'll strap up, let's, let's go do this. But on a daily basis, I think where I am world-class is someone says, hey, there's a— this is— there's this problem that only creativity can solve. And usually I find that happens in the way I like working, which is kind of fast and really conversationally direct, is like, I'm a startup, I have this idea, I think it's working. It's a product, it's a software solution. I need to launch it to the world. What do I call it? What does it look? How does it talk? How should it present itself? How does it communicate? Can you help figure that out? That's where I'm just naturally good at it. Like, I don't know why. I mean, it's a little bit of a nature-nurture, but I think 20 years of working on it has made me good at it, you know, or really good at it. And so that's what I really love doing on a daily basis. And that's what I'm doing right now. I'm just like, launching businesses left and right.

Yeah. I want to talk about agencies and services business for a second because over the past 2.5, 3 years I've been growing Verbatim, which is a content agency focused on like B2B specifically, and learned a lot from our early conversations about running one. And the one thing that I've started to experience is there's a lot of fulfilling parts of an agency, especially when you're working with early stage companies. There's so much beauty in creating. So for us, it's like a content function that didn't exist before. And you get to chop it up with early-stage founders who are incredibly optimistic and curious and ambitious. But we're also at the phase now where we're like 24, 25 people.

Yeah.

And I know you've gone through this at Gin Lane where agencies at scale have a certain drainage on your soul that is very, very unique. Yeah. And so I'm curious of, you went through that phase and you still found the part that you really love and the fulfilling part. And you want to do it again, also having the lessons of like, you've also seen that like stress and strainage at that level.

Yeah, I think, I think it's a really good point. I mean, for anything, it's, you know, all that glitters is not gold, and there's, um, there's levels to it, you know, there's levels to this shit. And so I think like, uh, I think they say in businesses or whatever, it's like, it's like every 3 times your, your headcount increases, it's like the whole system breaks or whatever. And I feel like for agencies, it's like on the, the small to medium size, it's like 12, 24, 36 are, are these numbers that are always like inflection moments or points. And then, you know, if you get to 50, 70 or whatever, then it's like 100, 125, somewhere in those ranges. And actually, Jin Lane, like, we kind of always hovered around like two dozen. Um, we got to maybe three dozen a few times when we had some bigger projects that necessitated more on the development side or whatever. And it is hard and it is, you know, it can be all-consuming and you have to— I think I haven't always been good in my life about it with like boundaries. I'm almost like a kibbutz kind of raised of a kid where it's just everything that is mine is yours and everything that's yours is mine with like my group of friends kind of growing up. And that's not how the world operates. So I think I have been taught boundaries from people close to me and my adult ages where like someone's like, yo, can I get money? I'm just like, here. Or someone's like, can I stay here? I'm like, here. But then at the same time, I'm like, I'll just text someone at like 11:30 at night, yo, what do you think of this? And in my mind, I'm just like excited, but you know, maybe they feel pressure to respond and they're with their significant other or whatever. On the agency tip, like it's nonstop and people don't have those boundaries. I think for, for Little Planes, I'm trying to keep it pretty tight and small and be more this post-COVID, we're talking about Miami and Austin. Not only are they like podcast centers, they're kind of like solopreneur centers, right? And I think that's a model of business that I really like, is like, how do I keep my overhead light? How do I keep the, the soul-crushing responsibilities when you wake up and you like check your iPhone like it's an old school BlackBerry and it's just like firing of stuff that's like wrong. It's really hard. And I think if you're at that 12, 24, 36, or whatever scale, what I've learned, and this is just for my brain, which is also knowing your strengths and your weaknesses. I am not— why I'm not a good manager or operator per se, I'm not a super organized person in a traditional sense. I'm very organized. Like I write checklists, but having project managers, having account managers, they're like your capos. You know, and they have to really protect you and the business, and they need to be protected. And if they can be best set up— that in the, the later stages of Gin Lane, one of our partners, Suze Dowling, who has a project management background, hired all these project managers that would just fight ferociously for us and our projects. And that would allow me and the creative team to be really protected. Um, but it is a lot of work for sure.

Was there a phase at Gin Lane maybe around the time that you were thinking about Pattern and doing something different, where there were just too many days in a row that you'd wake up and look at Slack on your phone and it was just fire, fire, fire?

Yeah, I don't know. I think, I think in some ways, like, I'm kind of good at that, but I don't know if that's totally healthy, right? That's like another weird thing is like sometimes things you're really good at, it's like, I think I have a high tolerance for conceptual pain, you know? So I'm kind of like, all right, all right, you know, like there's like peacetime CEOs and wartime CEOs as a metaphor kind of for life or whatever. I think I struggle more when stuff is really great. That's my like therapy issues to work through of my childhood is like, why do I feel uncomfortable when things are going well, you know? And I think when things are like gnarly, I'm just kind of like, all right, you know, like, yeah. And so I think now it's time to roll my sleeves up. Yeah. And so there's a part of that, definitely not like in my mind I'm like, yo, it's 300, or it's like, you know, and you're gonna like Sparta or whatever. But there is also like a toll that can come with that, that could have on yourself or your relationships. And that's where I think again boundaries are, are kind of important to have. And at the end of the day, like a lot of this stuff is not life or death, you know. So it's like, why do we— I think as humans, and I think also to some extent like as men, like you need problems to have and to solve. You just biologically you have to have some sort of purpose. And it's not like we need to go out and like find food or find these things that are more Maslow's hierarchy of needs at the base level. So we recreate that in this kind of like video game that's life, and you have to choose the problems that you have and keep them balanced and healthy.

I want to go back a couple years. You alluded to your childhood, and I, I did a little bit of reading previously. Would love for you to, to shed a little bit of light into what you think from your childhood had the biggest impact on shaping you into who you are on how you think about operating.

Yeah, I have, like everyone, two parents, and my mom is an artist and an illustrator. And I think only in my later years did I kind of realize how, like, cool and special that was. It's just, you just know what you know. You know, your dad's a plumber, a teacher, a carpenter, you know, an athlete, whatever. They just are what they are and that they're just your parents. But my mom is like really an artist in some ways, for better or worse. It's like, it's like a lifestyle, you know, like, and then my dad is just like a very blue-collar, Long Island, hard-working kind of guy. Um, and I think in early my childhood, there, in my recreation of stories, we all have our own ways we view things, like the elementary to middle school was a really positive, encouraging time for my sister and I to be really curious and creative and emphasize kind of that way of viewing the world, you know. And my dad's— that was more for my mom. My dad was just like, yo, like, don't fuck around at school, like, be a good guy, like, you're on your own of like being adult. And then they got, you know, like separated and divorced when I was in 8th grade going into 9th grade. And it was a little bit of kind of just like being dunked in cold water for myself and my sister of like, you're fully on your own, you know, like we got to figure our lives out, like you don't understand, kid, there's just bigger things we're dealing with. You'll be fine, go figure it out. And so I think that really kickstarted me from going from just like a curious kid whose head is in the clouds to, damn, I gotta get money to buy food at— for school for my sister and I, like overnight. So I think the entrepreneurial part in me was kickstarted out of necessity, not to be cool or something. I was just like, I have to make money. You know, from the age of 13. And, and so I think that instilled a little bit of like a sink or swim mentality for both my sister and I. I think as years went on and I got through— I call like my ages of 13 to 25 like my lost years or something, you know, where I'm just like, I don't know, you know, I'm like in high school, I'm like high the whole time, I'm just like, I don't know what's going on. Come to the city and I'm probably after that angry, you know. And then my mid-20s, I think I kind of like, you get through that like dangerous, tough phase as a young man. If you're not totally sure who you are, where you want to go, I was able to more reconnect with, I think, that younger self, the creative part, with this newfound like somewhat hardness of being able to like work and absorb, you know, pain and uncertainty. And so if you can combine, I think, the best of both parts, which is I can work really hard, I can deal with uncertainty, but I have a root basis that's a positive place in my psyche about being creative. That's a cool combination. And I think it's always like in life, like, you want to be weird or different versus just better. If there's 10 people doing this and you try to be better, it's harder than if you just are weird. And so I always thought like the Venn diagram I had of arts and arts appreciation with kind of hard work and somewhat later technology was an interesting overlap.

I think when you combine or maybe reclaim kind of your childlike sense of creativity with maybe an older understanding of business and launching companies, it's a really beautiful thing when it happens. I remember when I was a kid, or I'm sure when we were all kids, you walk around and you just see something. You're like, oh my God, this is amazing. And it's so funny because my mom's an artist and an art teacher, and my girlfriend works in fashion and is a great artist. My dad's a law professor and I run a company. And so when we go on walks, the four of us around Miami, my dad and I will be talking about business and money and growth and we'll look back. My mom and my girlfriend are just staring up at this tree. Yeah, like, this is so beautiful. My dad and I are like, come on. And then we're both like, wait, what are we doing? Let's go check it out.

Yeah.

So I don't know if you've ever— I don't know if that combination of those two is really natural for you or it just kind of happened over time.

Yeah, I like tension. I think tension is really healthy. And I think in relationships it's like opposites attract. Like if you're too similar, it, it can be hard sometimes. Um, and I think within all of ourselves, you know, it's easy to somewhat— like, of what I did of looking at two different parents and saying those are two different sides of me— but we all have our tensions within ourselves. And I think if you can both give them space, where maybe the side which is more legal-minded or whatever that you and your dad can share, that's really great for navigating modern society, right? But if you can look back at your mom and your your partner and they're literally stopping and smelling the roses, that's also good. You know, it's kind of like, I think all of us— and for me, again, like, I turned 40 and that was a big catalyst of like, what do I want to be doing? And I want to be more on the creative side. Like, Little Planes, the website I launched, my mom painted everything. You know, I'm doing a bunch of projects now with like high-flying cool businesses that my mom or other artists are like doing the paintings and stuff for. So that, that makes me really happy to have that ability to— it, it's an artist gaze or like a childlike gaze to apply that. But now I have like in my adultness rails of like knowing how to operate and be professional.

What I'm curious to know, like where do you draw your inspiration from? Like as a true creative, are you someone that's going out on walks with no technology? Are you someone that like is resorting to certain outlets for inspiration? I'm always curious because you've also done it at the highest levels.

Yeah, I think it's a good question. Um, I love bookstores. I love books. Like, I love art books. I love children's books. Um, you know, I just think kind of like wherever you can get information that helps you see things a little differently. Like, I find a lot of inspiration from social media. I know it's not like a sexy answer, but like, I'm always algorithmically trying to curve things where on Twitter it's like the cultural tutor or whatever. And there's always these threads. I love Twitter for the, the threads of stuff, you know. Um, and on Instagram, like, I just follow so many, like, anime accounts or, like, you know, weird things from history or stuff with animals. On TikTok, it's like short-form video of people, like, you know, showing weird parts of the world or whatever. I do go on a lot of walks. Um, I think What I think about for inspiration is whatever field you're in is get out of the field. And I think that's important. However you want to get your information, you know, so like if it's podcasting, there's a lot of infield inspiration you can get. Yo, look what these guys did. Look at these camera setups or whatever. That's kind of how you learn, right? But if you want to get like true inspiration, it helps you differentiate and be a little weird. You got to get that like you're watching a cricket match or something and you see on the side, the camera guys are doing something, they're interviewing somebody like, yo, that's interesting. Then you apply that weird thing to the base in field. That's how you have like something unique.

Yeah. I'm curious, over across, I guess when you're freelancing before Gin Lane, then Gin Lane, then Pattern, and now Little Planes, when you describe it now, especially your kind of decision-making matrix at the time of like, I was feeling this way, so we made this decision with my partners. I was feeling this way, so I communicated that. That sounds so— for someone listening to this, that sounds so simple and so healthy, and they're like, wow, Emmett just navigated and swam these waters so kind of seamlessly and naturally. But I'm sure internally that was building up, and maybe it was scary and it wasn't natural. And so maybe pull back the curtain a bit, and hopefully for people listening, like, maybe these weren't on the surface such easy decisions that you really kind of like went through and it was hard.

Yeah, that's a good point. They're definitely like super hard and like sometimes crying level like difficult. Um, but again, I think I'm always trying to like challenge myself to do the hard decisions that make me uncomfortable, um, and to like probably vocalize them to people around me that I know will hold me accountable. Um, so I have like a life coach now. That's like a luxury to some extent of like working hard for a long time. And I, you know, I got like a good therapist and a good life coach, you know. And so they kind of anchor my week so I can go like do Carl Jung kind of like psychic exploration, you know, on my Mondays. And then my Fridays, it's kind of like, yo, let's get pumped up, let's do this. And, and a lot of the coach I work with, you know, but it's the same when I didn't have that, I would do with like a best friend or my dad or my partner or whatever, is like, hey, I'm kind of thinking about this thing, you know, like, what do you think? And asking someone what they think is a great way for them to kind of hold you accountable of they know what you're thinking. You just need to hear it. And so I think each of those kind of like big inflection moments, those are professional ones. There's like, we all have our personal versions of it too. Maybe you need to get out of a relationship or recalibrate a relationship or move cities or whatever your expression of your identity or self are there. Everyone has their journeys. And I think it's important to try to ask for reflection and encouragement from people around you that you can trust. To hold you accountable for what everyone can see you want to be or what you want to do. And similarly, if you're a really good friend or partner or family member, there are gentle but like encouraging ways to help people listen to those little voices, which is like, yo, I really want to be this, I really want to do that. And I think if you can Atomic Habits, do a little bit of that each day, when the bigger moments come, it's not so cortisol level spiking, stress-inducing, overwhelming. You're like, okay, this is a really big mountain, but I can get through this.

Yeah.

How do you think about, um, how you like split up your calendar in terms of how you spend your time? Because I feel like you could easily be in the situation where it's just a bunch of people coming to you for shit because you are involved in a lot of things. But at the same time, it seems like you have a very good ability to like quiet those voices and like find that space for yourself to think creatively and like go back to doing the things that really give you that drive?

Yeah, I really struggle with it. I mean, like, I— my calendar to everyone in my life is just like crazy. It's just like a, like a, a rainbow Pez dispenser every day. Like, it's just, it's just non-stop, you know? But what I've tried to do, first of all, I think I, I know your strengths and know your weaknesses. Like, I've never, I've never really been good with like too much free time. It's like when I was a kid, that's how I always got in trouble. I'm like, oh, I don't have anything to do after school, you know. A few hours later, I'm like running from the police with like a friend and like, you know, on like bicycles. And I'm like, how did— and I'm on the bicycle sweating. I'm like, how did this even happen, you know? It's just like, because I had nowhere to go or nothing to do. So I always kind of need to keep myself busy, like That's just know thyself. Um, but I do need to also preserve pockets for, for me. And I think where I've gotten to kind of now— I was living in LA, that's where my wife is from, and Pattern was still East Coast based. And so it was kind of hard because I would have to— the days would just start, even if we were relatively asynchronous, they just start naturally where more of the team, especially the leadership team, is, which is East Coast. And I think moving back to New York and leaning more into little planes. I'm trying to like protect my mornings as much as possible. Like even this, which is being filmed at like a totally reasonable normal hour, I'm not doing most meetings or stuff till like 11 or noon each day. And then I try to finish by like 5:30, 6. So it's about like 11 or 12 to 5 or 6, which isn't a ton of amount of time, but in those hours, it's the there's no break. You know, maybe a meeting cancels or I try to have like a half an hour to like get food or use the bathroom, but they're really just stacking. But the mornings I have for myself, I can like work out, I can do a breathing exercise, I can journal, I can read my little books, I can spend time with my wife, I can go for a run or a walk, I can make the bed, I can, you know, check on an Amazon order or call my mom. Just the life, I used to put life as a backseat where I wake up and just start working. And I, I try to preserve my mornings for life and myself. And then after work is really for, you know, I'll touch up work hygienically, check emails, but then just be with my wife, you know. And I think that was another thing where I would just work till, you know, 11 o'clock at night and then go out and see my friends, you know, stay out till like 2 in the morning, wake up next day, just do it again. Just, it was just like eat, sleep, work. Um, in terms of the Pez Dispenser Core, I tried to, as much as possible, acknowledge every single thing that comes in because I know what it's like to like reach out to so many people and they just like don't respond or don't give a fuck. And then you see them on social or whatever and you're like, yo, I know you're not dead, you know, like write back to me, man. Like, I'm good, I'm cool, I swear. And they're like, whatever, man. Like they just for whatever reason don't think that you're at a level of acknowledgment, and that fucking sucks. So I try to acknowledge every single thing that comes in in one way, shape, or form. And for the stuff that I'd let get to like a phone call, my phone call time I treat as really precious. Like half an hour is a lot. Meeting someone in person in LA, I wouldn't meet anyone because I'm like, dude, it's, it's 2 hours.

I don't even know you, you know, like 2 hours just to commute to get to the meeting.

That's what I'm saying. So in New York, that's why like phone calls and stuff or video calls are a little bit better 'cause it can be truly 15 to 30 minutes. But even 30 minutes, you only have so much of those every day. So it does create a lot of emails or like, you know, social media or whatever. There's a lot of DMs. I try to like once a week just go through them. And even if I can't meet the person or whatever, just be like, I see you, I acknowledge you, here's what I think. And you know, over time, sometimes those relationships will evolve where, not only can I give them more time or whatever, but we may work together or stuff. So I think it is like being polite, acknowledging people, but also setting boundaries.

Was there a progression over time as Jin Lane became more well-known and pressures on your time became harder and harder, especially as your team grew and as you had more, especially like more higher-level clients? There's just a lot more vying for your attention. How did you still make sure to allow yourself the time to meet new people, to do podcasts like this. So to still say yes to some things but try to stay better at saying no.

The funny thing with Jin Lane is like, this is just the, the kind of narrative nature of humans. It's like, it's like, yo, who's the best rapper, you know? And it's like, well, like Notorious B.I.G. or Tupac would have been this or that, but they like died early, you know, versus, yo, is it J. Cole or is it Drake or Kendrick? Like, it's when you die young, you never do whack stuff. So it kind of always preserves, or like you're a sports athlete and you like retire, you know, versus you're like still on the field, you know, wobbling about. And I kind of always saw that for like, for Jalane, I didn't know where to go. We didn't know what to do. Like M&A kind of space at the time really wasn't like a viable route that looked awesome. And that's why we kind of were like, let's build this new business and just kill Jalane because we were doing our best work. And I kind of figured like, I don't know this multimillion dollar outcome that I'm gonna be psyched about for the team, but I think we can create a multimillion dollar story. And that, that was just killing it. And so I, I wasn't really doing any podcasts or anything at the time because we were alive. So it was kind of like, oh, Jin Lane, they're cool. And then the second we killed it to Pattern, that's when everyone was like, dude, Jin Lane was the best. I'm like, no one was saying we were the best when we were alive. You know, it's just the weird way that it kind of works. I think I'm definitely more busier kind of now of stuff. And in Jin Lane, project managers and SUs, etc., they, they were very protective of my time and the creative team's time in some ways that I definitely took it for granted, where I could show up and I'd been at the library for 2 hours just looking at books, you know. And then I get into a meeting, I'm like, do this, this, this, and this. Go next meeting, do this, this, and this. Have some new business things like go read, research, work with the team, and leave, you know. So I was— even though I kind of helped found it, I was very compartmentalized as a specialist.

But having people who let you do that is like— it's something I think we've talked about before, but like, I, I was a theater minor in college, and one of the things that our theater professor was talking about is how the way that the, the system, for lack of a better term, in terms of like go to school, go to college, get a job, whatever It's all built to trump creativity. Yeah, it's like you're giving up a bit of industrial revolution. 100%.

So like, it's like factory style.

The thought of you being able to be involved in this like really successful company where it's actually acceptable for you to go like get lost in a bookstore for a couple of hours. It's such a cool concept and something that I think a lot of people would admire, but not a lot of people would have the ability to know like that's what finds— that's where you find fulfillment. And so you do it at the expense of nothing and nobody. Knowing that there are people who acknowledge that and help protect that for you.

Yeah, and I think that was a harder transition for, for Pattern. It was stepping into, like, I'm very good at marketing from a brand perspective, but I didn't really know, like, paid marketing, growth marketing, lifecycle retention marketing. It's way more data-centric, you know, it moves at the speed of technology and there's a lot of specialization to it and I think I'm pretty humble, but like, I was just like, okay, now I'm accountable. I was executive creative director across all this stuff. I don't know any of this. And so there's people that are working underneath me that can just lap me in meetings, you know. And I think I'm an intuitive guy and I can get there, but it was, you know, and remained a hard process because there's just a very specific playbook for VC growth, you know, fast funnel commerce. You guys know one-on-one, right? So that was like a massive learning curve for me. And it was also just executive side, management, operating side. Every day there's 50 million things that are just absolutely like dumpsters down the river on inferno fire every day. And so I couldn't have that luxury anymore. By the time I'm in my mid to late 30s and I'd really built up this craft and kind of career specializing in one area, I don't really have that ability. That's gone down to 10% of my day. You know, now the other 90% is like, you know, this person quit, this broke, this isn't working, we're being sued, this, you know, like just 50 million things. That's a Tuesday by noon.

Chief Firefighter Officer.

You know, and so, and that's what you gotta do, right? Like you wanna get anything out of the sea turtle, little baby sea turtles are trying to get to the ocean, the seagulls are swooping down, it's all hands on deck. But it just didn't stop, you know. And I think that's like— COVID was crazy, and trying to evolve our business has been like so many kind of ups and downs and challenges that we persevered. But I think again, I wanted to go back to what I really love doing and what I think I'm great at, because I don't think I'm great at that stuff. I think I'm really good and I can work really hard, but I'm— I wouldn't be doing a podcast here for just management.

Was there a a specific moment in your life that allowed you to go like reframe and go back to this habit of like you said, after 5 or 6 o'clock, it's like that time is dedicated to your wife. Anything before 11, 12 o'clock is like you time. Uh, we talk about how that definitely wasn't what it was in like peak days of building Gym Lane.

Yeah.

But I think that speaks a lot to the concept of this podcast, Turning Pro, which is like those moments in your life where that switch goes off. You're like, all right, I'm making this change. What was that like inflection point for you that allowed you to go back to having that level of discipline or I guess freedom to be able to feel okay doing those things without feeling like you're letting other people down?

Yeah, I mean, I like the phrase and I think about it a lot, like work smart, not hard, you know? And like people I admire are not people that work like 18-hour days. They work not a ton of hours, but like they just know what needs to be done and they're very professional about doing it. And they also care about their, like, quality of life. And I, I think if you are gonna, like, you know, Jensen Huang of Nvidia or whatever, where he's just like, yo, I rip 7 days a week all day, like, sure, if you want to build like a $3 billion, $3 trillion kind of business, like, no doubt. I don't want to build a $3 trillion business, and that's okay. I have no aspirations to, like, try to do that, you know. I want to make money and I want to do cool stuff But I think at this stage of my career, I also have aspirations that are not just traditional work. I think in my 20s into my early 30s, I don't really think I was per se an efficient worker. I would definitely clock 10, 12, 14, 16-hour days like all the time because that's kind of all I knew how to do. I didn't really have like— I didn't even know how to like hold forks and knives. Like I had never traveled or I didn't give a fuck. Fuck. Like, I just was like animal style, I got to work. And I became really good at it. So I don't ever like hate on people that are all about working hard. It's the come up, you know. I don't like when people get to later stages. I'm at a later stage, so I'm like, yo, I chill, I'm done with like 5 o'clock, whatever. Like, I'm 40 and I've been doing this since I was like 15, so like I deserve that and I can get that. But coming up, you know, I had to work like a psychopath. But I didn't have mentors also. And I think if you have good mentors It is about that. Again, what I've learned later, and my wife has helped me, is boundaries. I never had boundaries, you know, so people could stay at my office and use everything, and I would just work and try to fulfill every request. But imposing boundaries— like, you talk to a lot of people, they get married or they have kids, they are more focused, right? That's the craziest thing. It's like, I have so much more stuff in my life, like, I'm not dicking around at work anymore. Like, I gotta get this done. And so I think that's a cool thing to think about if you are prior to these impositions of your parents need help, or, you know, you have a partner, or you have kids. How do you impose that discipline, right? I think that's, that's turning pro. It's how do you turn pro when life isn't imposing it on you. You're just doing it because you want to be the best.

I want to talk about boundaries for a second and deep cut for a second. The old Jin Lane website, I remember seeing, I think, a testimonial from Andrew at Hims.

Yeah.

Specifically talking about, again, I don't know if this was ghostwritten or something, but it was talking about how he was like, the Jin Lane team and the whole team was in the trenches with us when we were going live and they were just there every second of the day. And when I was building Verbatim, I really took that to heart because I was like, I wanna be that in the trenches. I wanna make them feel the same thing. And now that we're a couple years in and we're like 24, 25 people, it's kind of a source of tension sometimes because when I'm working with a team and we'll onboard new company that I'm friends with the founders and we're really excited and we can't wait to work with them. In my mind, it's still the early days. Like, there's no scope. I'm doing anything possible to help them win. But that doesn't work anymore because I can't force my team to work 14, 16-hour days. And so there's a lot of back and forth of like, this is out of scope. And I'm like, I don't care, we're helping them win. But at a certain scale of business, you can't do that. And so was that a learning curve for you over time?

Yeah, I mean, you know, shout out to Andrew, and, and he wrote that, you know, um, and it— but it was true. And, you know, like, uh, there's probably like 8 Gin Lane Pattern alumni that work full-time at Hims right now.

No, right?

Wow. So much of their creative design digital team, um, you know, led by a guy, uh, Dan Kenger, who was kind of like my right-hand man for like a decade at Gin Lane. He's, I think, executive design director there, but like there's probably like 8, you know, there's, uh, um, Dan Batten, Alaya, Patrick, Derek, a guy named Mike, guy named Elliot, of course Dan Kenger, um, few others, but they're just world-class rippers. And Andrew, I think he, you know, deserves a lot of credit. Like I learned a lot from working with him, I called— we had like an East Coast playbook for startups, which was like at the time, you know, it was like Gin Lane or Partners in Spade, who's now Mythology, Red Antler, you know, Darius, you know, a few— Doris Dev if it was a physical product. And you'd kind of go to everyone, you'd pick and choose, you know, this agency or whatever, Doberman or, you know, and you kind of build the brand and you get the PR and you make the product or the software or whatever. And you launch it, you know, it was a kind of a waterfall approach. And from Atomic, which incubated Hims as a concept, it was called Clubroom as a project. And they tested it out of just like search terms, what men were looking for. And they found, you know, oh, there's a lot of people that are looking for, you know, erectile dysfunction going up, for hair loss, for herpes, all these things that like no guy wanted to talk about in person. So it made a lot of sense to do it digitally. There was also this, at the same time, a patent cliff for, I think, like Cialis, Viagra, Propecia, Rogaine, all around the same time. So they built all the stuff, tested it out, then they came to the East Coast guys and said, we're gonna run a West Coast process, which was like prototyping, sprinting, and ripping. And they were like, okay, Julian, you're cool, but like, can you rock out? And me and Dan Kenger were like, yo, we can rock out. And they're like, all right, let's see. And it just moved 1,000 miles an hour to the point about like, we stayed with them after launch for almost a year or two as their in-house kind of creative team until we launched Pattern. That's why it's almost a natural progression for some of the guys to go back into Hims was Andrew and their team were always really good, what I would call like containers and content, right? Mm-hmm. And so like, I remember an, uh, an old drawing and it was talking about San Francisco and New York of like tech and media and stuff. And it was that like San Francisco creates the containers like Twitter and New York creates the content like The New Yorker. And so The New Yorker on Twitter, and in some ways I think they were great as a San Francisco-based team of setting containers. And they— we had never done a retainer. They were the only— the first and last client we'd ever did a retainer with. And the retainers were just fuck shit up and they would just drop briefs and say, we're going to take over New York City subways, we're going to do Times Square, we're going to do a TV spot, we're going to put stuff on urinals in, you know, a baseball stadium. We need 40 ads, whatever it was. And Suze and the project manager would manage and say, that's too much. We can do that. And then Dan and this little team and myself would just rip. And it would be kind of like— there's almost like, you know, when you see speed chess, you know? And it was like— and then, and then like the project manager would come in and hit it and be like, okay, you're done, pencils down, you know? And then we just turn over everything at the end of every like 2-week minor major sprint. Yeah, they'd take it, they'd run it, they'd come back and say, do more on this, hold on that, add this. And we did that for a year. So he was really good of like, I know you guys are world class, name the price, let's make it work, do as much as you can, and I'll respect that. That positive encouragement made us supersede probably the normal dollar amount, as if he was trying to like nickel and dime us.

Yeah. And did you get— was that kind of like a one-off situation where you really just loved the project and kept rolling with it?

What do you mean?

In terms of like the retainer with them, was that like a—

well, we launched them, we launched them, and so after launch we stayed on with them. We did hers, we did all of Hims' expansion. Like, we, we worked with them probably like 9 months before they launched. And then Andrew just had a vision and he's like such a hustler that like they did like a million ARR in the first week or something, right? And so it was, it was just on and popping from like day 5. So it couldn't be like, okay, we're an agency, we launched you, like, good luck. They're like, dude, all systems go, like, can you get back in and just keep on rocking? And so we really like working with him. We had some equity in it, you know, it was a great setup. And so we're like, okay, let's try this out versus here is the next scope of work for this deliverable. He's like, I don't care about that, can you just keep doing stuff?

And was that kind of one of the first moments when you realized you guys could just go do it for yourself, which is how Pattern was born? Like, this is cool and all, but instead of owning like a couple bips, we can own majority of it.

Yeah, I think that was definitely like a turning point of like, wow, I really— we work well in this model. Um, I think there was a lot of stuff that we were protected from. We didn't have to build the products and the software and all that, you know, like, or like the underlying software from like, like a legal and like, um, you know, telemedicine perspective. The consumer-facing stuff we built. But it was definitely like an impetus if we're gonna go start our own thing. Just as you said, we're getting, you know, some stuff. Why not try to own the whole enchilada? So I think ownership is key, you know. I mean, like, cash is king. The world revolves around cash. But I think if you— I like working with early stage businesses, and I think the value you can create sometimes supersedes a transactional cash amount.

What are you excited by right now?

I'm working, you know, I mean, I, I think it's— it has helped recalibrate my relationship with Nick and Sue's Pattern where I'm not like an unhappy diva or something, and I can more be, I think, a positive force and try to support the journey that they and Pattern are on. So I'm really happy about that recalibration. Um, we have some new products and stuff that are coming out. Anam, who's our like creative director, that we worked on that I'm really excited about. On Little Planes, like I was saying before, I'm over at like— started yesterday at Thrive, you know, they just set up this little studio. So I'm around all smart people, um, and just kind of ripping. Like, I, I, uh, you know, I'm always like talking shit to the, the ex-Gymleaners at him, you know. I'm like, yo, I'm coming for you, I'm coming for you. Like, I got the hot websites, but I really don't, you know, because I'm just like just kind of really getting started with it. So I'm like a little rusty, you know. I'm still— anyone I work with now, like, we're doing hot stuff, um, but I think by like next year, you know, I, I can be back of like, like X-Men, kind of like Gambit style, just like scorching shit. Um, and so that's where I'm really excited, is just like head down, you know, like I want to be the best, I want to compete, but in a way where you get on the court and you still exchange jerseys after the match, you know. When, when the clock's on, like, you're trying to rip their head off, and when it's over, it's like, hey, how's your wife, you want to go get dinner, you know. Um, so I'm really focused on like 2025 for the craftsmanship. I really want to do world-class work You know, Apple just launched their, a lot of their iOS 18 and stuff, and there's just this little moment or that. There's a bunch of externlaners and we're all in these little text threads where we're just like pouring over every single detail. You know, some of them are at Meta, some are at Hims, some are freelance on their own, some are at Apple, you know? So we're all like, uh, just comparing notes and everyone wants to be like the best at what they're doing.

Yeah. Tell me more about the through line, cuz I, I feel like something you keep mentioning is the importance of really smart people around you. It was even when I think we met years ago, like the Gin Lane office. Immediately I was like, whoa, these guys are killers. Or working with Andrew and the Hims team, different approach on the West Coast, but killers. And they move really fast. Or working out like the Thrive office. And that's really important to you. Or even just asynchronously. Yeah. On text and who you're talking to and who you're calling. Is that something you intentionally prioritize to make sure you're around those people, or does that just like naturally happen?

Well, it's like another one of those guidance counselor poster phrases or something, right? It's like, you are the sum of your, like, closest 5 relationships, right? So, you know, I have, like, some really great friends and family that I'm very inspired by, about how they live their lives and their character. And I think for work, I try to surround myself with people that are, like, humble hustlers, um, you know, whether it's Andrew, uh, you know, admiring him, or Dan Kenger, or Josh Kushner, or whatever. Like, they're all super humble people, and they're all really eager and curious to, to learn in their own ways. And they all surround themselves with other concentric circles of rippers, you know. So I think it's people that, like, don't have ego, work super hard, and, like, care about the craft, whatever it is. It could be financial, it could be theory, it could be design, you know, it could be business leadership. There's a craft to it. It's their, it's their flow, it's their top right, you know. And so it's smart in the sense, like, I'm not per se like book smart caring, you know. I think it's smart about people that are like intelligent and witty and challenge themselves and are curious and like have a drive for excellence. And I think that if you're around those people your day is already great, and there's nothing that you can replace that with, right?

Like, with—

you're the living example of that, is like, you built the successful business and you're like, all right, this was great and all, but like, I want to go back to being like the dude in the office that's just like trying to figure out shit. Because you are like— you, in a crazy way, the people who strive for excellence, you like lose fulfillment by almost making it because you care a lot more about the hunt than the actual kill.

Yeah, that's why it's like—

which is a disease, I think, but like in the best way possible.

Yeah, it's like Jiro Dreams of Sushi, or like the relentless pursuit of perfection, that Japanese notion, like, you're never going to achieve it, you're never going to achieve it, but you must pursue it. Yeah, you know, so, and I think that's the journey of being great at your craft, is just constantly pursuing the best version that you can be or you can do, and surrounding yourself with other people that have healthy balances of that. They don't lose sight of everything else, of like that little weird creature in Lord of the Rings, you know, like you're talking about Gollum. Gollum, yeah.

How do you find that can potentially affect your happiness, and it— or does it at all? Where like you, you kind of have this ideology of like this relentless pursuit of the unattainable, but if you can never actually attain the thing you're chasing, or do you actually have like real peace and happiness internally?

I think there's like— I don't think like humans are different, and I think you can kind of break down somewhat like a formula for like a happy life, you know, or like an enjoyed life, you know. It's, it's, it's conversations. It's like Blue Zone stuff, people that live to like 100, you know, like they chill and talk all the time with like close friends and family. And they like, you know, it's like, oh, the Mediterranean diet, you know, like they're always like work in the field or whatever. Like, yeah, you got to be active and move your body. We are biological you know, meat blobs. Like, we're not just like avatar-ed out, you know, like, as much as we maybe in the future, but right now we're blobs of meat. You gotta like move these things and lymphatic nose and get it moving. But a lot of them doing that gardening stuff is like, they're really passionate about their garden, you know. And so that's their craft, just like you guys are doing this, or agencies, or I'm doing that. It's no different, right? You have to have some external pursuit or passion or hobby or work that you love doing and tinkering on every single day. You gotta have people. It's really hard to be like a hermit, you know. It's really hard to have your relationships be digital or only digital. You got to be in person, and you probably need like love and vulnerability, right? Like, those three things are a pretty good formula.

I love it. I mean, that's a great, great place to wrap, man. Can you look into that camera on the left? I think tell people where they can find you and Little Planes.

Yeah, I'm Emmett, um, E-M-M-E-T-T, so @Emmett on Instagram, Emmett Shine on Twitter, and then littleplanes.co.

Oh yeah, thanks for coming on, man.

Yeah, thanks for having us, for making this happen.

Yeah, cool.