#040: From Basement to Boardroom: Eli Taylor-Lemire on how POSH raised $31M

How I think about the difference between what school is like and what running a business is like is just once there are real-world consequences to the decisions you're making, it just adds a different level of things being ingrained into your mind. Like with the hiring stuff, you make a poor hire and that can really, really like seriously fuck up the business for a while. And then when you got to part ways with people, like you're impacting someone's personal life and all that stuff. But with all that being said, I think like what's so crazy is when you get beat down that many times. I feel like the emotion gets taken out of a lot of things that I used to have a lot of emotion around, and now I'm just like, "Eh, it's another day being a startup founder." [MUSIC] Eli Taylor Lemire is the co-founder and chief product officer of Posh, a software product for live experiences that has raised $31 million in funding to date.

Eli's journey from college dropout to leading a successful company is both inspiring and insightful, showcasing his ventures in video production and coding, as well as his ability to navigate the challenges of scaling a startup during a pandemic. In this episode, we uncover the compelling story behind Posh's founding and growth, exploring how Eli navigated the challenges of early-stage startups. We delve into the key strategies and lessons in hiring and managing a talented team, and emphasize the crucial importance of solving our own problems in business to create meaningful and impactful solutions. Join us for an in-depth conversation filled with practical advice and inspiring anecdotes from Eli's entrepreneurial journey. Welcome back to Season 2, Episode 3 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Eli Taylor-Lemire, the founder of Posh. Thanks for joining us today, Eli.

Let's go. Happy to be here.

Eli's got an amazing story. College dropouts. You just gotta love those stories. Uh, you wanna give everyone a quick background on what you're working on and how you got here?

For sure. Yeah. So I was super into photo video production growing up. In high school, I started a music video business for rappers in the city. I lived right outside New York and I would take the train in on the weekends to film those videos and then ended up teaching myself how to code so that I would have a website to sell those services on. Had a startup in high school as well. And then I got into NYU for film where I met my co-founder, Avante. He was super talented DJ and also had a startup in high school, so we kind of clicked Right off the bat, we started throwing parties together for college professionals and we tried using Eventbrite and all these other ticketing softwares and were really dissatisfied with them. So we decided to build out our own tool that people could use. Well, actually just for us at the beginning. It went really well. The parties grew in size like crazy and then COVID hit, so we couldn't, do any more parties. We decided to build out the tools that anyone could use it to market and manage their events. And yeah, fast forward from COVID um, around like October 2020 when we came back, it started getting used a lot in Miami for the text blasting features and stuff like that. Um, and then over the past few years we've basically scaled out what we like to think of as the Shopify, um, for live events. And yeah, we just hit 2 million users. By the time this episode releases, we'll be announcing our Series A. So we've raised $31 million to date. And yeah, we're chugging along at this mission. That's kind of like more so the story of the company. But I guess where I'm at.

Yeah, but I love it because the best founding stories are those where you're solving your own problems.

Yeah, 100%. Is it more up against like a comp to Partiful or to Dice or something like that?

Yeah, that's a question we get a lot. We are really all about monetization and people being able to turn either their live experience business, um, monetizing that, or just having better experiential marketing. That's also in the green. Um, but yeah, we're very on the finance side. Like, Heartiful is purely e-vite. Um, and then I'd say the differentiator between us and Dice is that we are completely white label and it's all about your branding. Dice is more of a marketplace where it's— you can't really get your branding across as much.

It makes sense.

And then what about compared to like Eventbrite? I know you kind of alluded to that, but what are like the main distinct differences?

Yeah, Eventbrite is the same thing DICE where their branding is all over the site. Um, so it doesn't really let the users get their message across or, or build a community. Um, as well as our app, if you go on it, it's so much more oriented towards like that social media feel where it's kind of one event at a time and you really get a great idea of the experience you're potentially going to be going to. There's an interactive guest list. Eventbrite is kind of just like a boring list of local stuff, I guess. Yeah.

Yeah. I feel like there's a moment in almost every founder I know, especially on the younger side, like in their 20s or like late teens or something, that there is a specific moment where they made their first dollar online, usually through like an agency or service. Like, yeah, start with an agency. I know you did as well. Yeah, I'm running an agency now. And from that moment on, your life changes forever. So I'm curious from your lens. I'm guessing this was in high school. What was that first like dollar or $10 that you made online?

I would say the first time was in middle school, actually, with Roblox. You guys know that game? Yeah, I was like obsessed. I went through the Roblox phase and the Minecraft server phase. I ran a Minecraft server, um, but I wasn't making US dollars. I feel like it was— there was in-game economies, and that was the first time.

Roblox coins or something?

Yeah, Robux.

Yeah, Robux.

Um, but totally that like moment of obsession, I think. I think with Minecraft servers more so, like when I realized there was an in-game economy and you could like get a bunch of people around an idea and lead them was very mesmerizing.

100%. It's funny, I don't know if I've told you this story. In third grade, so I didn't make my first dollar online But in third grade, my buddy and I started this thing called the Ticket Store.

Okay.

Where the economy in the third grade classroom was like tickets. Like if you did something good or did your homework on time, you would get a few tickets.

Like the little red—

Yeah, the little red tickets. And, uh, at end of the year, you, you know, whatever tickets you had, you put your name on them and they'd get put into a raffle and you could win all these prizes. And so me and my buddy Adam, my mom was an art teacher, and so there's all this like extra art supplies and he'd always come over after school. And so we created these like cool funky pens and erasers that were like well-designed and we just like built them on the side. And then we came in and we asked our teacher, we're like, hey, can we sell these? And so we technically had no margin because my mom just had extra supplies. So 100% profit in terms of ticket sales.

Should have doubled down on the business.

Exactly. So great margins. My mom was hemorrhaging money. And so we'd bring them in every week and we added all these SKUs and we would just sell them to our friends. And at the end of the year, every— I think 99% of the tickets in the raffle were Adam or my name.

Damn.

I'm not kidding. And so there were like 20 different prizes and it was Adam. Adrian, Adam. And I came home with all this stuff and my mom was like, oh my God. So when I left third grade, I remember fourth grade I looked back and the school had taken over the ticket stores and now they had corporatized it and they were like, they were selling stuff, they controlled the supply because we took advantage of the fact that there was no little store going on. So I was not internet native, but that was like early days.

Yeah, yeah. I think, I think a lot of like entrepreneurs have that awakening moment as a kid, something like that.

Did you have one like that, or was it—

while you were talking, I was like thinking about it, and I, I don't remember. I don't remember having something at a super young age because I feel like all I did was play hockey, and that's like all I thought about and all I did. And then I think, um, when I got to high school, that was like my first leap into just like startups and entrepreneurship. Did I ever tell you— I don't even know if I told you— like, did I tell you the, the first thing that I like tried building in high school?

No.

So we did this thing, it was called senior projects at my prep school, where you could take the last 2 weeks of your senior year to pursue a passion of some sort. But you had to go through like a proposal process with administration, so you were essentially foregoing exams and like classes for the last couple weeks. Uh, I had this idea, uh, where I wanted to start an app that was essentially going to be event discovery meets dating. It was called Spark It. We made like a full MVP for it. The premise of the business was that the problem with Tinder at the time was that there was a very low success rate of offline interaction because what it was was like people were just mindlessly swiping. And also this concept of safety wasn't a real thing where it's like you meet this stranger on the internet.

It's like, it's crazy.

Yeah, it was just like, well, yeah, that, but also just the concept of dating apps. It's like you meet this girl, like, go meet me in this random place, and you're like, I don't know if that's safe. So the idea was that you could give them, number one, a common interest in terms of, um, declaring your attendance to the same event. So maybe you guys both like that artist The second piece of it was giving you a safe space to actually meet each other. So you're in like a crowd of people, not like in a back alleyway of just the two of you. And the third piece was convenience. It's like you're already going to the event regardless. So if you want to meet the person, you might as well. The whole premise of it was to increase the offline interaction percentage of meeting people on dating apps, which I think from a timing perspective, when we had this idea, it was actually a really good idea. I just had no understanding of how to like execute against something like of this magnitude while like trying to be a Division 1 athlete and whatever, for lack of whatever happened, it just didn't work. But I look back and I was like, we kind of timed that perfectly. And then like Tinder released features and then the dating space became, became crazy saturated. But that was like the first time that I really tried to actually build something. And we like presented the MVP and the demo to like 500 kids at school. It wasn't our first dollar that we made, but it was the first time I was like, kind of like this idea of building businesses.

I love that idea. I want to talk to you about hiring, especially with the Series A. And as you guys have scaled, how big is the team?

Uh, 25 now.

Okay, cool. And so from my experience hiring Phase 1 of Verbatim, which is the agency I run, we were like 4 people and it was me and I hired a couple of kids straight out of college and I was like the old one. I was like 25 at the time. Yeah. And so I was the quote unquote experienced one with like a couple of years of experience. And over the past year was a big focus on like hiring an executive team and people that are just better at this than me. And now I'm one of the younger folks on the team. Yeah. And so I'm curious from your lens, I'm sure you are one of the younger people on the team. Yeah, one of the youngest. How have you thought about interviewing folks way more experienced than you and not dealing with any imposter syndrome through the interview process and also just like managing and leading a team like that?

Yeah, great question. So many things that I would comment on there. I think, um, one is just like I've probably done 300 or 400 phone screens in the past year. And so like once you get to 100 or 200 in, I think you just, it becomes second nature and you know what to look for. Um, in terms of not having imposter syndrome and knowing what to look for when I'm not necessarily an expert in those verticals, um, Avanti and I have a bunch of advisors, which is really helpful. And I actually on one role we're hiring for, just finished like working on a rubric with the advisor. And they kind of craft some of the questions that I'm asking in the, in the earlier screens as well as like when we do the later stage technical challenges and stuff like that. I think having a rubric is really helpful because then multiple members of the team are all giving like a quantitative rating to the person. So there's no really going back and forth. Like it's just very simple when weighing candidates what they're score was. But yeah, in a more like macro sense, I think that how we thought about hiring— I forget who said this, it might have been Alex Hormozi— where he's thinking of it as like when you want to get to a few tens of thousands of dollars in revenue per month, you just need the founders grinding 24/7. When you want to get to $100,000 in revenue a month, you just hire a bunch of ICs that just add to your bandwidth. Then when you want to get to $1 million in revenue a month is when you need that like A+ talent. But I think what's interesting is when you're hiring the ICs at the stage where you're trying to get to like $100,000 a month, we did that. And some of those early ICs step up to the plate and get really fucking sick at what they do and you can keep them. Others will kind of fall off as you get to the later stages and bring on higher talent. Yeah, I guess another topic that, that's been really interesting recently that I've been learning about is like the whole concept of layering, like with those early ICs.

Some of the independent contributors. For people listening, yeah, I don't know what that means.

They're really freaked out about you bringing in higher talent. So both the person you're hiring and the existing team, you kind of have to weigh, like, if I bring an executive in over this pre-existing team, how will they behave? Are they the type of executive where they're going to make everyone feel like they now have to conform to their way of thinking, or do they come in and learn how the team's already been moving? Stuff like that. There's some— that was kind of a rant of a bunch of different topics.

But yeah, what do you do when someone is maybe an old IC as you guys have scaled up and now you're like 25 people? What do you do with the folks kind of in the middle of the pack that are doing their job, are doing pretty well, maybe like B+, A-? They're not the A+ player, but it's still— they've already been onboarded, incredibly valuable. They're not going to jump ship right away. What do you do with those folks? Are you trying to upskill them and then if they can't cut it, you, you know, are interviewing for separate people and then we'll replace them or just really trying to upskill to get to that A+ level?

Yeah, I mean, like you said, I'm super early on in my management career, so I'm still learning how to do that, I think. But the most important thing to me is career direction for them. They need to know what they need to attain, both from like a, a hard skill and soft skill perspective. To get to the next level in their career, not necessarily within the bounds of Posh. Like, if you are at a junior contributor level, what would make you a senior? I think giving them that direction is more meaningful than like, here's the work you have to do within the company to get to the next level or to be one of the A-players. And you need to bring in people that can be an example of that senior staff or management role that they can look up to. Um, so yeah, those are the biggest things I think is just giving them what, what is your trajectory, uh, not just within the company, but within the vertical that you're in.

Yeah. What about your experience?

Um, I mean, I think it's, we're going through this in real time right now because our team is essentially doubling over the course of like a month or two, which is a lot to like, it's like a lot to chew off at once. Uh, I think I've gotten really good at hiring cuz I feel like it's all I've been doing for the last couple months.

Yeah.

Um, but I think the biggest thing is level setting that when you're in a startup environment, you need to be able to be a self-starter and you need to be able to learn how to learn agency and solve problems because there's not enough time for people to hold your hand to do everything.

Yeah.

And yeah, you, you know, we're, we are, have our first middle management hire that's starting in a few weeks, which is like a really big step forward and scary step forward at the same time. Cuz that's when I feel like you start to have hierarchy and things slow down because people need approvals and whatever. But I've always been in the camp of like, have a bias for action. I'd rather you ship something even if it's not perfect in your mind, but like do it instead of waiting around for a couple of weeks, like waiting for someone else to say something to you. But ultimately, I think similar to you, like I'm learning along the way because I don't— you can talk to all the advisors you want and like read all the books you want, but there's no way to actually learn how to manage a massive team without managing a massive team. Yeah, because no two teams are the same. No two org structures are the same. You could use the same philosophies, but like we're all building different things, so we need different types of roles to fit into that puzzle to make it work.

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

So I just think it's really like, take all the inputs that you need and then be a critical thinker and make these decisions. Like, it doesn't matter if you're 23 or 33, like if you're building a company, like you need to problem solve for yourself. Everyone else will never know the business as good as you do.

Yeah.

I wanna talk about in the hiring process, backchanneling. Because maybe someone sees your application or you get a referral from someone. Let's say you're hiring a head of operations or something. And obviously, you'll do a first screen, just get a vibe check, see if they're a good fit. If they're interested and you're interested, maybe however you set it up, second, third round, fourth round, extended, meet the team. Ideally, they can do some work on the side or a 30-day sprint if they don't have a full-time job right away. And then obviously, they provide a handful of references, hopefully, that you talk to.

Right.

Is there a layer deeper than that? This is a question for both of you of backchanneling to folks that used to work with their former investors or former colleagues at previous companies. That is that final layer of not just talking to their references and, and trusting your own gut instinct, but digging in on the side.

You're saying backchanneling to get a reference?

Yeah. Not just taking the ones they give you.

Yeah. I mean, what we've done is like for the, uh, executive level, we try to get someone as an advisor or consultant and slowly scale them from like 10, 20 hours a week, 30 hours a week, and then a full-time offer. I'm not a huge fan of references, literally just because of what Ben just said, which is like each business is so incredibly different that, yeah, maybe I could get a reference on your soft skills, but I'm going to get those anyway out of the screening. And then in terms of how you work with my business, I'll see that in that slow ramp-up phase. And there's not a ton of commitment because they're only at like 10 or 20 hours a week as an advisor. It'd be easy to part ways and the team hasn't gotten attached to them and all that stuff. That's at the executive level though. And then at the IC level, I think it also maybe 1 or 2 references. But like if you have a really good pipeline, I feel like you'd suss out everything that you'd like to during that pipeline.

So you're not doing any reference?

I'm actually the opposite, really. I do at least 3 references for every single person. I don't do as much like backchanneling to people that they don't provide. But for me, it's a lot about taking every answer you get from a reference with a grain of salt, knowing that like they know this person. And being able to sift through like what's real, what's not. I think I've talked about this before, but my favorite question to ask a candidate— or sorry, a reference— is how many people have you worked with with comparable experience to the candidate, and then where would you rank them amongst that group? Top 1%, 10%, 50%? That's a cool question. If someone says like top 20%, really nice person, like that's a polite way of saying they're at the bottom of the barrel. Like our last couple hires have been— if I were to start a company, this would be my first call. Top 1%, one of the best people I've ever worked with. Had one founder who's been building his company for 8 years, said this was the best hire we ever made. And I'm sad that we lost him. We lost him because he wasn't intellectually stimulated enough. Like, I want to hire people where you like lose sleep because you're so excited that you got your guy, not like just good enough.

Yeah.

Um, the other thing you made a comment about that maybe we do differently is we actually do our technical challenge in the second step of our process.

Interesting.

I don't want to waste my time getting a role. Uh, every role we, we usually make some sort of challenge relative to what your day-to-day job would look like. Yeah, but I don't want to waste my time talking to your references, getting to know you if you suck at the job.

Right, right, right.

So we'll do like a 10 or 15 minute like behavioral, like, okay, you're not a dickhead. Uh, here's your technical challenge. It's pretty binary in our eyes of like, do you meet our quality or not? And if you do, then we'll go through the rest of the lengthy process. But I think some people wait too long in the process to do a technical challenge where they're kind of just spinning their wheels to get to know someone before they even know if they're good at the job or not.

100%. On the note of hiring, how have you gotten better at delegation?

Delegation? I struggle with that a lot because I'm like super—

He's a product guy.

Yeah. I mean, and I was doing coding, design, content creation, like everything for the first 2 years. So it's really hard giving it up. But I feel like when you get the high of of stuff is getting done way faster and more effectively when you finally do delegate, then you're like, all right, I see why this is so important.

Yeah. When there's like a beautifully delegated and elegant workflow and things get better done faster and better than you could have done, it's a really fulfilling moment.

Yeah.

And something that I've been impressed by is for the Turning Pro content.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I've probably been in content longer than you have, but when things go out across Ben's channels, way more consistently than mine about posts on LinkedIn or Twitter or Instagram or whatever it is. And I know he's just as slammed.

Yeah, Ben's a LinkedIn weapon.

But he has built in like as fast as possible, like this really beautiful, elegant workflow that is fully delegated for the most part. And I'm here like, I suck at delegation. This man like lapped me.

Yeah, but I think there, there's a couple of pieces to it. I think the first one most importantly is that being able to let go of things is the only way that you can level up. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think the second piece to that as well is like, you need to have that happy medium between like quality and quantity, whereby there's certain parts of the process that you have to be willing to let go of if volume is the game you're playing. But ultimately, like, especially when it comes to personal brand, like you wanna be in control of that as much as you can. I just think that I've put processes in place to be able to, uh, unlock time for myself in areas that I want to be doing certain things instead of others and building content into like a process and a business was very important for me because I knew that content was going to be core to everything that I was building. And it's not scalable if I was going to be doing everything by myself. Like, I think the podcast is the perfect example for you, right? Like when we first started, it was not what it is today by any stretch of the imagination. But we've been able to put people in place to help take certain parts of the process off our plate. One, from a mindshare perspective, but two, from like a quality perspective. Like, I'm not the best person to do a lot of the things that are required to go into this. Like, I, I joke with Griff all the time, who's our producer, like, I wouldn't know what to do with this camera if it hit me in the face. But I knew that I needed the cameras to be able to turn them on to record. And that's the extent of my knowledge there. And I don't want to spend more time doing that because it's just not the best use of my time.

Are there things on your plate right now that, you know, deep down you should be delegating or that you're not the best at?

Yeah.

All right, let's, let's live workshop this. What are those?

Send it to Avante after. I'll tell him, I'll send him an invoice for this therapy session.

Um, I mean, I'm still designing. I still go into the code base. Um, there's little tweaks, but at this— I don't know, at the same time I feel like I should know how— I never want to not be able to look at those things and understand what's going on. Um, I feel like a CPO or CTO that's super detached from the code or design would kind of suck at what they do. Um, but I— there's things that— minuscule things that I should probably just be throwing in linear and like letting our team get done. Yeah, I don't know. I'd have to do more reflecting on why don't I actually do actual to-do list?

Is that like a— is that— do you think that's a valid belief or is that like a self-limiting thing that you've just told yourself? Like a CPO should know what's going on.

No, I mean, I look up to someone like Elon who's on the factory floor a ton. I think that that is actually something that I look up to and like technical founders that they are constantly like visiting the quote unquote factory floor, the equivalent of that in software, and, and getting dirty with the engineers, understanding what's going on.

Yeah.

I'm curious, uh, we had another conversation about this. I'm curious where you stand on this. Granted, it is your first company, so I don't know if you have much of, um, the ability to like have a perspective, but looking at where you started, whereas like you and your co-founder kind of in like that basement vibe, just hustling versus like where you're at today.

Yeah.

Which environment do you think that you thrive in more? Which one do you enjoy more?

Hmm.

You could be diplomatic in answering this, but I think like there's probably a truth at your core.

It's a great question.

Yeah, it's a great question. I think both— this is kind of cop-out answer— both of them were so enjoyable for their own reasons. Um, I guess I miss the speed at which I could contribute in the basement days, like Avanti and I would come up with an idea and you just sit there for 3 hours and hack it out. And now there's a lot of processes that not get in the way. They're there for good reason, but you can't move that quickly anymore. But that being said, working with like really talented people that know what the fuck they're doing is sick because now those ideas are getting leveled up 5 times before they actually get built. And I'm learning so much about like in honestly every facet of the company because I also manage marketing in addition to product and engineering. And like, yeah, we just have a sick team that teaches me so much shit every day that I wouldn't have been learning when I was just doing it by myself. They're both equally as fun, I feel like, for their own reasons.

I think it's also— he's in a unique situation because he like dropped out of college. This is his first company. But I can't stop thinking about what Emmett said to us.

Yeah.

Emmett Shine, who came on a few weeks ago in terms of the episode, he built Gin Lane into this behemoth of an agency.

Yeah.

And it basically got so big and so successful, he's like, all right, like, I got to go back to day zero. And he's like, he started a new thing that he's tinkering on now. Yeah. But it was like he realized that he enjoys more being in the mud with like not all those resources and being able to ship things quick, that his business became too big for his own good in terms of where he found fulfillment. And so he is such a baller. He's like, all right, like, this is cool, but I'm going to go start over again.

I don't think I'll have that moment. I think I really like experiencing how each stage unlocks new resources and there's new processes and new people. Like, at least I think it'll be a while till I don't have the high of like, well, we're at a new level, this is dope.

He's been in it for 25 years, so like, it's a little bit different. That's why I'm saying it's not as relatable because this is your first rodeo. But I'm sure like whatever this outcome looks like for Posh, if you hypothetically started—

once I can ring the bell at the stock exchange.

Yeah, exactly.

And then maybe I'll come back to it. Being on the floor.

Yeah. So, I mean, if you start a new business one day, you might have a perspective of like, all right, looking back, which part was way more fun? Was it like the 200-person team of like running leadership meetings, or was it like me and my co-founder in the basement just shipping products?

Yeah.

Yeah.

The best analogy that I— I keep seeing this on like Twitter all the time is about startups compared to video games, or just like your life compared to video games, and different levels unlocks new character traits or different skins or different resources. As you mentioned, I like that framing. I know you played like Minecraft and Roblox and other video games growing up, but are those similarities very real as you're scaling the company? Hell yeah.

I think this one guy that we're big fans of was saying how there's 3 traits of an entrepreneur. One is that you're like kind of narcissistic and think you're super important, like you're the person that's got to do what you're doing and you're the only person that can do it. The second is overwhelming insecurity that you're never good enough at what you're doing. And I think that's what that is, is like in video games, you're like, I always need the next level. Nothing is ever good enough. And then when you get there, you're like, fuck, I need to go to the next thing. Um, and he was saying the third thing is like the ability to focus on something for a really long period of time.

Hormozy.

But yeah, Hormozy. Yeah, um, I'm a really big fan of him. But I think that the insecurity part of things is like, it's so important that like you're someone who is never satisfied with whatever level you're at in the video game. It's almost what I was just describing too with like not being bored with new heights.

I think I've referenced that exact quote on this podcast 5 to 10 times. See, Griff has even been like, yeah, talking about Hormozy's take on insecurity being one Commonalities of high performers. I heard it and it's never left my head. And they were—

totally. It's weird because I feel like if you're someone who has that trait, once you're cognizant of that, you would like handle it in a different way. But it hasn't really changed that feeling for me at all.

Yeah, because I feel like you'll lose your passion or your fulfillment if you try to go against it, because it's who you are and it's why you're doing what you're doing.

Yeah, I think where it gets unhealthy is when it trickles into areas of your personal life where you should be like happy with things, if that makes sense.

I think it's an inevitability in a lot of instances, and it's more about managing it versus blocking it. I think, I think you're lying to yourself. I think you're lying to yourself if you're an entrepreneur and you have that trait where you're like, I could just turn the switch off and in my personal life it's never going to be there. That's bullshit. It's not real. Yeah, because if that is the case, then I don't think you're actually embodying that insecurity in, in your entrepreneurial life. It's more about accepting who you are and what you are and just making the most of like what you have at disposal.

Yeah, totally.

A lot of my founder friends, a lot that have been on this podcast, talk about startups are like the best personal growth accelerant in the world. And so I'm curious, as I mean, even since we started this, I mean, we've known each other for like a year and a half, been running this for a year, like you've changed immensely as a person as well. Um, I think in a good way, but, uh, thanks, man. There we go. I'm curious from your lens, like, how has it, how has it changed you as a person? And, and, and how does that bleed through in your friendships with, with people you met before the company or how you treat your family or how you think about romantic relationships?

Yeah. Well, I mean, looking from the outside in, I think people tell me all the time, wow, you're so different from what you were in high school. That being said, though, I feel like the backbone is still there, like the overachiever shit and like always trying to be grinding on something like family is a big one. I mean, like, I think I was always the kid that was like arguing with my mom about some dumb shit or like not appreciating family time. Now that I barely have time to spend with family, like, I think I have a totally 360 view of it where it's like one of the most important things to me and I'm trying to see my parents more. And yeah, I definitely like the value of person, even like simple shit. I was just telling me and our new head of community just did a— we went to Atlanta for a dinner we were hosting and then we drove back up through North Carolina, D.C. to here. Even just seeing trees, I was like, I've been in the city so much, it's like in the office that like the simple things in life hit so different. But yeah, that was kind of a weird tangent. But I think personally, I feel, I feel like hopefully I've become more empathetic. I definitely used to look at management and leadership more as a like, I am driving everything. And now I look at it as more of like, how am I supporting everyone so that they can drive everything? Um, which is a really like hard flip to make. Uh, yeah, I would say, I would say like a lot of the personal growth has been related to like management and communication stuff. And like, I still suck at communication in some areas and that's the biggest thing that I'm focused on now. But I guess now that I'm cognizant of how important communication is, I approach it differently. If that—

do you know how old he is?

23.

Dude, are you listening to how he's talking? Like the, the answer to your question is like how wise he has been forced to become.

Yeah.

Because of his battle scars from starting bringing like a real business. Everyone aspires to start something in college. 99.9% of them don't even make it out of college. But to be able to have a real business, like the things he's saying, I'm listening to at 28, and I'm like, dude, at 23 years old, this is not how my brain was working. So I do think there's an element that he doesn't even recognize because he's the one who's living it. But from the outside looking in, as I've gotten to know him over the last couple months, I'm like, you have no understanding of how different you are than like 23-year-olds. Yeah, there's like not what they're doing for fun and this is not what they're thinking about. And he's talking about like how he can be improving as an individual and like management and leadership. Like, it blows my mind every day.

It is really fun though. I think that's a great— like, it's like, like you said, the ultimate challenge for self-growth and leadership and all those things and like an MBA at the same time almost.

I think that's the— I love that note about an MBA because so many of my friends are finishing up. I'm 28 and so a lot of my friends are just finished up MBA programs and now deciding what they want to do next. And it's so— it's still so wild to me that people will pay like a couple hundred K. Totally. To go to an MBA. And I'm like, you can just try to start a company. You don't even go work at one. Just try to start one for like a year. Just do an agency. It's like easier to start with services.

Yeah.

And you will learn way more about like cash flow and payroll and hiring and firing and delegation and processes in a year. And if it doesn't work, okay, then go get an MBA if you want to.

You guys are talking about MBA. You could go back a layer and just talk about undergrad.

Yeah, I'm—

there's levels to it, of course, because there's a lot of people who don't mature and grow up the way that you did, in the sense of like, you know what you want to do, you found your purpose, your why, whatever. But I mean, in today's economy, with resources available online and the internet to just like learn versus like spending a couple hundred K over 4 years to go to undergrad, I don't think it necessarily needs to be like a mandatory thing in today's world. But like, when I was younger, I came from a traditional family. My dad's a doctor, my mom's a nurse. It's like there was no other option other than to go to college.

100%. I'm curious, as you've, as you've kind of like evolved as a leader of your team, I feel like every— a lot of the founders that we've had on here, especially as you get older and have more experience, it goes from kind of like early confidence and then you've just gotten kicked down so many times and so many things have broken that it hits a point where it's— you're still confident, but after a few years it's a lot of humility. Um, has that happened to you?

Oh my God, yes. So relatable. I think like a— how I think about the difference between what school is like and what running a business is like is just once there are real-world consequences to the decisions you're making, it just adds a different level of things being ingrained into your mind. Like with the hiring stuff, you make a poor hire and like that can really, really like seriously fuck up the business for a while. You lose money because of it. And then when you got to part ways with people, like you're impacting someone's personal life and all that stuff. But with all that being said, I think like what's so crazy is when you get beat down that many times, what ends up happening is it just— I feel like the emotion gets taken out of a lot of things that I used to have a lot of emotion around. And now I'm just like, it's another day being a startup founder. Like, that's, that's how it is. But in the beginning, it's so hard, like when shit is going wrong, to just let it personally impact your emotions so much. And now I think Avanti and I have evolved to being a lot more just like, if you remind yourself when something really crazy happens to, to take 3 deep breaths, go think about it for an hour, and then approach it logically, it, it helps a lot.

It sounds like a Turning Pro moment to me.

Shout out Turning Pro. Nick, uh, Nick Huber from Twitter had— or not from Twitter, he's like this entrepreneur with like this big holding company.

I know him from Twitter, it's okay.

Okay. Yeah, um, he had this great line that I loved about like people that deal with high stress volume all day. It could be founders. It also could be like a head of ops or COO who also deal with the same levels. He was like, high achievers at that level or high performers sometimes can go through a day and like get in a minor car accident on the way back from work. Like no one's injured and then get home and like forget to tell their spouse about it because they have just been dealing with so much stuff all day and like little thing comes up, it just, you sort it. You handle it and you move on. And I don't know if he actually experienced this or maybe it was a friend in the story that he was telling, but he was mentioning that that had happened. And then the spouse found out a couple days later and was like, oh my God, are you okay? And they were like, yeah, it just happened.

Yeah, I hit my deadline. I got that proposal out. Like, no, I'm talking about the car accident. Oh, I forgot about that. But it's so real.

I think you're stressed out. Like Ben and I were sitting down before this and we both had our laptops open and I was just looking at your calendar and you were looking at mine. And there are some moments where you look at it and you're like, Jesus Christ, yeah, this is, this is day to day. And then you kind of zoom back in and that just becomes normal. But it is cool, kind of like speaking about video games, how as you level up and as you have your own turning pro moments, you just get used to that level of operating.

Yeah.

And it becomes normal. And then as you mentioned, you look to the next level, right?

But I thought I was thinking about this. I don't know if you guys felt this way, but like when I first started a company and like got into business when I was younger, I'd be pumped when we had a meeting. Like someone would be willing to meet and be like, I look at like a 5-day calendar, it's like 2 PM on Thursday, like 2 to 2:20, like one call. I'm like, that's dope. Yeah. And then, and then you get into it where like the default is like everyone wants to talk and you can have all the meetings.

Oh my God.

And it goes— yes, it goes the other way.

I fucking hate it.

It's the reverse. And I always, I always like kick myself.

Deep work.

Like, yes, I always like kick myself as the young entrepreneur who just wanted anyone to talk to me so I could tell them my idea. And now you actually get that validation where people want to talk to you, and then it's like you, like like you said, you flip upside down and now you're cutting meetings off your calendar.

100%. I'm curious for the next phase of your business and like your evolution as a leader. I know it's going to unlock, unlock even more resources. You're going to probably double in team size, new products, SKUs, I'm sure. And so looking to that next level, I'm sure it's kind of like in your sights right now. What are a handful of skill sets that you know you need to get better at? Not specifically around delegation, but what are the next things that you're like, I'm okay at this, like I need to get better here. And I know that next level requires it. Hmm.

Um, well, I think hiring is like one of the most important, if not the most important pillar for us as founders at this stage of the company to be incredible at. So I'm trying to absorb as much information from like advisors, articles, whatever, on like how to be really good at that. Because if we make incredible hires, I think it will alleviate all the other things that I need to be good at. Um, personally, if I was telling Ben, actually, I've just never been athletic. And like, I told myself when I moved apartments that now that I had a gym, I would get in the gym, and I didn't. Um, so that's like, it's honestly that simple. Like, I feel like the next unlock for myself personally is just being more physically active, to be honest. But it's like something where I know I'm not doing what I should be, but it's so difficult at the end of a stressful day Like, what always ends up happening is like I wake up in the morning and there's immediately shit that has to get done, and then I'm like, I'll do it at the end of the day, and then I get home at the end of the day and I'm fucking exhausted. And like, yeah, I got it. That's the next big barrier I think I need to get over is like working that into my routine.

If Mark Zuckerberg can get into the gym and fight people, then you can find 20 minutes.

That's what's interesting is like looking at Zuckerberg, how long it took though, because like he was still—

he made it already.

Like, yeah, a few years ago. I feel like almost—

I think people underestimate, uh, now I'm just gonna lecture you about this because I disagree. I disagree.

This is not a podcast.

I just strongly disagree with this mantra of like, then there's something that has to get done. There's always going to be things that need to get done, right? You, you are, you are running a business which is just an endless to-do list. There's always ways to improve. Of course there's levels to it in terms of figuring out like, what is mission critical? Like, if I don't do this now, the business is going to go backwards, versus like Yeah, this needs to get done, but it can wait 20 minutes.

Yeah.

I think people in your shoes also underestimate the value of a 15-minute workout.

Totally. No, I know it.

If you did, if you did like a 15-minute thing, it doesn't have to be a full hour and a half warmup, cool down, stretch, like sit in your apartment and do pushups and situps for 15 minutes. Like go run for a mile.

To my credit, I do have 2 weights out right now that are just on the floor that I pick up sometimes.

Great.

I don't hit 15 minutes, but I need to do it.

But it's better than zero though.

Yeah.

But I think I've always been someone operating in that extreme where it's like you're either doing the hardest thing ever and you're all in. Or you're doing nothing.

Yeah.

And it took me a long time to be like, you know what, if I just go do 20 minutes of exercise, like, am I gonna have 5% body fat from this? No. But like, I think mentally and physically it's going to be incrementally healthy.

Are you a morning guy?

Uh, I've actually been— I like go back and forth over the last year. I've had phases between both, which is really weird and interesting. Yeah. Um, I don't really know the reason for that. I think in terms of, uh, when I'm most productive, it has evolved Some days it's been morning, some it's been like afternoon. And I think a lot of that is around when people need things. The thing that I do know to be true that I've learned about myself is that I'm a more productive person when I can ease into my day in the morning. What I used to do is like time my day where I would wake up, work out, have enough time to like shower and get to my desk like 2 minutes before my first call. And you're just like rushing into your day and then you're in calls for 5 hours and I'm just like anxious and like hyper and stressed. Versus like now I'll wake up, I'll go sit on my roof, have a coffee for 15 minutes, do like nothing, just like chill and like slowly ease into it, whether I work out or whatever. But I'm now giving myself enough time to like sit down and go through things and not feel like I have to rush into my day. But it all comes back to boundaries. It's on you to set boundaries. I know you're going to say there's always things that need to be done, but like if you set these boundaries for yourself, you'll find a way to kind of fill in the gaps around that.

Yeah, no, it is deep how it's like more of a self-respect thing.

Yeah, I think the biggest— I think the most helpful reframe around like working out or nutrition or whatever kind of gives you that productivity boost is a reframe around energy unlock or like an energy multiplier. For a long time, I just thought of fitness as like, oh, I should be healthy on the side, like work and then I should work out. But I think especially once you have a business that at least is generating maybe like $10K a month or like something in the early stage, once you just have something that's working, maybe a little farther along than that, and you have a team to start executing on, it's less of a question of like the big questions, like what do I need to do in the business? It's more like I know what I need to do. Like you probably know what you need to do.

Totally.

You just need to do more of it. Maybe better hiring, better delegation, better product, whatever it is. Once you get to that point, then it's really just a question of like how much energy you have to allocate it in any given day. And once I started to reframe, it's not like work and then work out. It's like if working out and nutrition and sleep are energy multipliers to just allow me to do more of what I already know I need to do, then it's going to help the entire business. And so now it's not like a separate thing in my mind.

Another thing that I want to talk about that we haven't touched on yet— Eli did something that like so many people will go the rest of their life never being able to come close to doing. He made a music video with Bobby Shmurda.

Oh, you started telling me about that.

It's like the funniest thing in the world.

It's funny.

And what's even more— what's even more ironic about it is that like Bobby and I became homies.

Yeah.

completely independent and separate of his involvement with Eli or whatever. And, uh, Eli was at his office a few weeks ago and he's like, yo, you should come through. It was like in the evening or whatever. And I walked in and Bobby was sitting there. He's like, wait, how the fuck do you guys know each other? I was like, no, Bobby, how do you guys know each other?

How did that happen?

Um, so my friend, uh, my really good friend Rishi, um, who's in tech as well, works out of this office. And I guess, um, The guy that owns the office is really good friends with Bobby. Bobby is just an incredible networker and networks like crazy within tech specifically now. But yeah, we— he did a talk at NYU for Rishi, and then after the talk, we hung out, had a dinner, and Rishi and I were also working on the idea of like this boutique venture firm that we were toying with on the side. Bobby wanted to get into it. We started hanging out more, became homies. And yeah, in my free time I make a lot of music and I'd made— I was trying to coin this like new subgenre of music that would be venture rap.

Okay.

So it would be rap about—

Jesus, tell us more.

So I'd made some like super vulgar songs that like had, you know, like jokes about only terms that like a software engineer would know, but like in the context of like misogynistic shit and all that, just for fun. And yeah, I played Bobby a bunch of my tracks. Well, yeah, I played Bobby a bunch of my tracks and we were all hanging out and he was like, these are cool. But I think he thought they were really lame because I also like, I'll do like hip-hop shit, like talk about guns and shit like that, which I've also evolved from now. I'm making more music that I think is more authentic. But anyway, weeks went by and then it's like 1 a.m. I'm lying in bed. About to fall asleep and I get a call and it's him. He's like, yo, I want to get into the venture capital game. I've been talking to some people. I remember you make music about it. Let's get in the studio this week. So I'm like, bet. So my heart was like beating. I called my boy. I was like, yo, I got to get all my tracks together. So me and my boy Miles, shout out to Miles, like one of my best friends. It was like the night after a team dinner. I think it was like 10 or 11 p.m. Miles rolls up. The studio is deep in Jersey, so I'm like, all right, come with me, we'll go to the studio. Bobby sends us— well, I didn't realize he had sent us the wrong address. So we get 40 minutes into Jersey.

Come on, Bobby, be better.

Weird-ass warehouse in the middle of nowhere. Nobody's around. And I'm like, did this guy set me up? Like, what the fuck is going on?

Yeah, you're like looking over your shoulder.

So I FaceTime Bobby and he's like, ah, shit, I sent you the wrong place. Then we go another 20 minutes. So anyway, it's like 1 AM in the middle of Jersey by the time we get to this place. To the studio. Um, and yeah, I played him through a bunch of tracks. I had an open feature on the one that we ended up doing, um, and it's about VC. Uh, we like workshop some lyrics, like he references the 2 and 20 structure and some other stuff. Um, but yeah, I think what's dope about it is like it got, it got a Complex article and like a little bit of attention.

Um, I didn't know it got a Complex. Oh, that's dope. Congrats.

Um, and so like once the Series A press comes out, and I think also once people realize that Bobby is getting into venture capital, the song will kind of resurface and people will be like, oh wait, what the fuck, this is a crazy crossover between two types of verticals. Um, so yeah, that's the story.

But the best part, the best part about it was when we were at dinner the other week, we were talking about like, okay, like what's next, who's the next feature? And then we're sitting there talking about like, who are the other music people that are also like very deep into the venture scene? It's like the Chainsmokers are the— they're like one of the pinnacles between them and Palm Tree Crew with Kygo.

They have a great fund, Mantis.

No, I know, but I'm saying I'm like, dude, he's got to make a song with them next.

Yeah, facts.

That'd be dope. Yeah, we did a whole music video.

Um, it's sick. Dope. I like the, uh, you know, the like nature is healing meme.

What's that?

It's like, uh, when things go back to the way they were. And so it's with, uh, like when valuations are now like if you're raising a seed, you can get it at like $19, $20 post where like a year ago it was like had come all the way back down. This is like the phase of like celebrities and influencers starting to come back into tech. Yeah, I actually like— I think that like confluence of culture is really cool.

Totally.

A lot of people for the wrong reasons, but right, it's cool that it's nature's healing. Yeah, starting to happen a bit more.

No, I think that's what's so cool about Bobby is he's so authentic with what he wants to do. Like, I think he's genuinely in a phase of his life where he's like, he wants to be completely removed from being on the street and doing all the gangster type stuff. Um, and he's like, we'll sit for hours and he's just asking questions about like how VC works, who we should be talking to, all this shit. So it's like he has a really genuine interest in like getting into it, which is dope.

I love that.

We can get him on the pod.

Yeah, yeah, you totally should. That'd be sick.

Be quite an episode. Uh, I actually want to flip the script a little bit because it's something we talked about, but like the way that Eli and I became friends is he reached out to me and he's like, I love your podcast. I want to let him ask questions for a couple minutes.

Okay.

Because he actually mentioned this to me because I think he's just a genuinely curious person and it's so interesting when we're just like sitting here throwing questions at people.

Mm.

I'm putting them on the spot a little bit, but it was something that we had talked about a couple of weeks ago.

I would hit you with— in the last year, for each of you, what's the hardest decision you've had to make within your business?

You go first.

Letting go of our highest paid employee.

Mm.

Um, which is something that's actually pretty recent and fresh for us, but I think it was very challenging for a couple reasons. Um, the first one was like, we're human and we have empathy, and he was dealing with something on the personal side that was very challenging. Uh, but at the same time, from a business perspective, it just like very clearly wasn't working and culturally wasn't working, and it kind of became like this obvious thing that everyone could like sense and feel. But it was just like very challenging to ultimately rip the Band-Aid off and do it because there's just a lot of implications behind doing so. And then we had someone else on our team who had like a medical problem right at the same time that we were about to let him go, and then we couldn't let both of those things happen in the same week because then the whole business would implode. Yeah, so everything around that decision and conversation and process was very, very challenging for us, but I think it was like, you know, sometimes the right thing is also the hard thing.

I'm sure you learned a ton of lessons.

You got to turn pro.

Yeah, honestly, I would say that's my answer.

No regrets?

No, not at all.

Dope.

Zero.

What was the— usually when you make that, when you pull that trigger, and the day after you're like, that was the right call.

Actually, I'll tell you, I'll tell you what my only regret was— not doing it sooner.

Yeah.

Uh, and this is a Hormozy quote. He posted this on LinkedIn like a month ago, and he said that he had It was like he had like a billionaire mentor say to him one time that if you hire someone and they're not a superstar in their first week, they're not going to grow into becoming a superstar. Like, A-plus players—

one of the hardest realizations to make.

Yes, but A-plus players will make an impact on day zero. You might not know your product and know your business, but the way their mind works and their bias for action and like high quality of their output will stand out immediately if they are that person. So I think it was really accepting that, like, if someone's not what you think they are, very rarely do they evolve into this, like, you know, character you have in your head that you're hoping for them to be.

Can't agree more. I'll touch on mine in a second. But also shout out to Herman, our chief of staff at Turning Pro, a perfect example of this. He started a week and a half ago. Day 3, I think I Slack Ben and I was like, oh my God, this is, this is completely changing. That's our stress around it and just the level we're operating at.

And we knew within 3 or 3 days maybe I would say before when he did the technical challenge. But yeah, yeah, agreed.

I think the hardest thing, or maybe I'll reframe, is like the biggest learning is a lot of my job and I think your jobs is to show up every day to every interaction, like the Frank Slootman quote, and like ramp up the pace. I don't know if that's his exact quote. And that is really uncomfortable for myself and it's really uncomfortable for everyone on the team.

Having velocity. Yeah, it's uncomfortable.

You know what, I actually— a point that I want to make, because you have nothing to compare this to, I think it's much more challenging as a solo founder. And the reason I'll say that to you is because I'm, uh, I over-index on the side of like ridiculous in terms of how aggressive I am about wanting velocity to happen. And my co-founders are like, all right, Ben, we gotta like— yeah, we gotta like chat their way. Like, there's 3 of us, say one is on this end of the spectrum, I'm on this, and one's in the middle.

Yeah.

And it's very healthy and it works. But I've never wavered from being the one that's like, no, like it needs to be done yesterday.

Yeah.

And in certain moments I'll be like, all right, you need to like take a breath. But when you're by yourself in that regard, it's— I think it's way more challenging.

It's definitely hard. I mean, I have an exec team who's awesome and we talk about this a lot, but there is— there are obviously points of burnout, but I don't think most people actually get to that point. I think when people say they're burned out, either are using that terminology, it's because they're stressed about something.

Yeah.

And there are multiple types of stress. There's eustress, which is something that you grow from. Like we've all been through eustress of like going from 1 call a day to 20 and you just got to deal with it.

Yeah.

And then there's distress where like your, your, your body is like actually can't deal with stuff and can't cope with things. And so it's really uncomfortable to talk to people who think they're operating really well and to come with, quote, radical candor and just be really straight with them of this needs to go even faster, even though you think this is going really well. And those aren't fun conversations to have. But I think if you frame it from the lens of you get you both get on the same side of the table and you're saying, hey, you're operating here and you're crushing it. I think you can get to here and I'm here to help you get to that level. But we need to be up there. And when you're down to do that, then let's go.

When you're super stressed, it's like 4 a.m., you're ripping your hair out over something. Who's someone outside of your business that you call?

Outside of the business? I mean, my girlfriend, who we've been dating for 3 or 4 years. We talk about everything with. I think the beauty of New York is that there are so many folks that are like us three. We're both like, you're younger, but like, we're all in our 20s. This is our first go around at these companies. And after this, we're going to get dinner with a handful of folks also going through the same thing.

And thanks for the invite, guys.

I didn't plan it.

Yeah, but I think having those, like being able to— I don't drink too much, but being able to go to like a workout or quote unquote get a drink with someone or go to dinner with someone. I think the beauty of services on a last hype point about agencies is that like the— I say I've said this a few times, but like the client to homie pipeline is incredibly strong because I'm working with all these other like 28-year-old founders. Yeah, usually they have co-founders too and we just become really good friends because that's what we're doing. We're in a Slack channel together for a year and I'm helping grow their content and they're helping me give advice and everything. And so a lot of those people have become very, very good friends, like Prince from Factored that we're getting dinner with later. We've been working together for a long time. And a lot of the time my clients now who've just become friends are the people that I'll immediately ping like, hey, can we hop on a call? Like, I'm dealing with this thing and it's a really fulfilling and like beautiful moment when even though people like technically you're like a client, like employee relationship, but you can just hop on a call and like chop it up. Yeah. Even when things inside your own business aren't going super well.

Totally.

I think it's super contextual for whatever the problem is that you're facing. Yeah, right. Like, my therapist has been extremely helpful in a lot of instances. My best friends who aren't in entrepreneurship have been very helpful to give me like a third, you know, a third perspective on how to approach something and get out of like that entrepreneur founder mindset. Yeah. Or it's like, it's my co-founder that I need to call to like run an idea by. So I think for me it's, it's not like a one size fits all answer.

Yeah. Interesting.

I think finding someone also more tactically, like with a very specific business model that matches yours is incredibly helpful. Like when I, when I get particularly stressed about one thing that is niche to content agencies working with a niche ICP, I call Tommy like 2 or 3 times a week because half the time we work with the same clients. The other half, like they're also an early stage niche content agency. Yeah. And he's also a solo founder. And so if you want to get more tactical about it and like find people that you can talk through issues with, find the same business model with the same ICP.

Yeah.

And then yeah, we call each other every few days and that's really helpful.

Last question from my guest host session. What is your most embarrassing guilty pleasure? Oh my God, don't hold back.

I, I'll jump right into this.

I don't have an answer.

After a long week, like tonight, I may do this because this— I flew in on Monday night from Miami and I've just been ripping. Um, I can house a pint of ice cream in like a good 10 minutes.

Oh, that's lame. You gotta have a crazier one than that.

Oh. That is my guilty pleasure.

I think my girlfriend would have a better answer about me than what I'm able to come up with off the top of my head.

Okay, this is a little bit more embarrassing. I love those like silly Pixar movies that you watched as a kid. Those calm me down in ways that like— I, I love watching Toy Story, or I love watching like— I was— my girlfriend and I were gonna watch Surf's Up last night. Great movie, by the way. But those I think it just like touches a part of your childhood and I feel like super safe. I feel like I'm on my parents' couch. Those really calm me down after a long week.

I like smoking a joint and watching a docuseries.

All right.

And we're good. Let's—

is that— is that PC for me to say?

Yeah, it's legal here. That's fine.

Uh, yeah, there's very few— I think there's very few activity— like, I don't know, I definitely— eating a lot of different things is like a guilty pleasure, but I think like it's a really hard answer for me because I realize that I'm such an always-on person with like work because it's an obsession that I, I don't even like think about things that someone else would deem to be a guilty pleasure that I never actually looked at like that. Yeah, I don't know, that definitely counts.

What about you? I know you got one.

I was trying to think of mine right after I asked the question because I hadn't thought of one, but, um, uh, there's like certain like foods I like to eat sometimes, or like definitely, definitely going to like a really sick party. I feel like I just need to like crash out and go party every like 2 or 3 weeks, like maybe sometimes a little bit more than 4 AM. And nowadays, like a really like rager night where like I'm going to be like hurting the next day. Like I need to just get everything out and go.

But you embody that in the business you're building.

So it's usually a posh party.

So that's the way till you're 28 and then I'll probably be—

Yeah, let's revisit that when you're 28. I like that, dude.

Thank you so much for coming on. Can you talk to that camera and tell them where they can find you?

My name on all social media and go check out my new music video.

Hell yeah. You should plug it. We can put it in the description.

Super down.

No, go sign up for Posh and find incredible live experiences in your area.

What is it? Posh.

Posh. VIP. Or if you search Posh on the App Store, it's the top result right now. It should be.

Sick.

And if not, someone on the team is doing something wrong.

Thank you guys so much for having me on. This was dope. And yeah, it's sick because we met because I hit you up because this was— it was dope to finally be on it.

It's awesome.

I love it. Hell yeah.

Hell yeah, man. Good shit.

Let's go.

Good group.