#043: $4.8 Billion Sale: How Ryan Lewendon Closed the Coke Deal and What Happened Next

What we really do better than anybody else is we get involved, we become really a partner in the business, and we help entrepreneurs strategize and guide their company in a much more effective way. Just because we've got the experience and the line of sight to be like, hey, look, the people that come in after you, the people with experience, the people with more reps doing what you're gonna do, we know what they're gonna want and look for. We know how they're gonna attack. This piece. We know how they're going to try to take you down in valuation. So from getting involved early, we can help you shore those things up. We can help you build those things up so that you have less weaknesses and a lot more strengths by the time you go do the exit.

Ryan Lewenden, co-founder of Giannuzzi Lewenden LLP, is at the forefront of legal services for emerging consumer brands. Since establishing the firm with Nicholas Giannuzzi in 2011, he has played a pivotal role in guiding high-growth companies through complex legal landscapes. With a client list boasting household names like Vitaminwater and BodyArmor, Ryan's expertise has been instrumental in their rapid growth and successful exits. In this episode, we uncover the fascinating story behind the company's ascent to prominence. Ryan discusses the firm's entrepreneurial beginnings, the strategic moves that have cemented their reputation, and the dynamic relationships they've built with some of the most notable brands in the industry. Welcome back to Turning Pro Season 2, Episode 6. Today we have Ryan Lewenden, who is the founder of Giannuzzi and Lewenden. Thanks for joining us today, Ryan.

Hey guys, thanks for having me. I'm so pumped to be here.

So Adrian and I were talking about this before you showed up, but you have like had your hands in what seems like every single major consumer deal that has happened since I can remember, since I've been in this space. And I think I'm just so curious to understand like what you started with to get to where you are today in terms of like having the ability to be at the forefront of everything going on in this ecosystem.

Yeah. Like, you know, we've done a great job developing like a real specific niche, like in the legal field. I would say we are the go-to for consumer-facing businesses in the consumer products industry. And, you know, we started in there with like we got this great experience, but it was very much by happenstance. My partner Nick and I, we worked at a bigger firm. We were corporate lawyers. And, you know, the firm had a longtime real estate client whose son was an entrepreneur and who had started a bunch of projects that didn't work out, went through bankruptcy, came back around. And eventually the dad like kind of went to Nick and was like, hey, my son's starting another business. It's a water company. You got to watch over him because he keeps— he's He keeps going to bankruptcy, right? And, you know, the guy was Darius Bykov, and the company that was the water company ended up becoming Vitaminwater. And so, you know, Nick and I had this really amazing opportunity to get in really at the ground floor of a brand that became very transcendental in the CPG business, right? And we kind of did everything for that business, right? Like, you know, all the rounds of financing, built the distribution network, supply chain, all the celebrity partnerships like 50 Cent's deal with like Vitaminwater. We had like, you know, his equity in the brand and his own flavor and royalties on that product. Like was one of my first deals I worked at, at law school, you know, Jennifer Aniston's deal, which became like one of the longest running CPG partnerships of all time. I think it went like 10 years after the sale to Coke even. And we did everything through the sale. Right. We did the sale to Coke 2007, 2008, you know, $4.8 billion, you know, like a 13x off trailing revenues. And, you know, it accounted for this huge shift in wealth. Right. The cap table of Vitaminwater was just filled with almost every employee, you know, like the secretaries at Vitaminwater made like a million bucks each. Right.

Wow.

Yeah, I mean, you know, the sales folks were making $5, $10, $15 million each, right? And a lot of those people went back and got involved with the things they knew, right? So they went and got back involved in CPG, and we started getting phone calls, you know, from those folks, 'cause we were like the only lawyers that they knew. And we're like, oh, I'm starting a pretzel company, or, you know, I'm starting an energy company or whatnot. And we started to realize like, oh wow, maybe there's like, maybe there is something there, you know, in this industry to go represent more of these companies. And we went to our first expo, Expo East 2007, Boston. Nick and I took one of my friends from college who had started an organic soda company in New Orleans, and we took the train up Boston to go introduce him to Mike Repoli, who's the president of Vitaminwater, and like show him the soda and see what he thought. Right. And as part of doing that, we walked around and like, you know, we had like our little business cards and we were like, you know, hey, we're lawyers. Anybody need a lawyer? And people were like, well, like, I'm not getting sued right now, so I don't know, like, what you want. And be like, no, no, no, that's not what we help. We were like, Vitaminwater's lawyers and we help you like structure rounds of financing, build your infrastructure. We help make sure there's like parity between the founders and the investors as they come in. And we help you grow and help you sell. And people are like, oh, oh shit, yeah, I need you. Like, I had like 6 employees, now I have 68. But like, my lawyer is my uncle's friend's, like, you know, best friend who's a trust and estates lawyer. And they don't know what like a billback is and they don't know what a pallet is and they don't know, you know, who Big Geyser is. And I just I would love to have someone with some contextual experience so I don't need to educate them, you know, on, on the actual industry in order to sort of do the law. And we left that show with like Vita Coco and like Happy Baby organic baby food and Hint Water and Siggi's yogurt and Pirate's Booty and Pretzel Crisp, like all his new clients. Right. And they were all companies that were doing, you know, a couple million dollars in revenues about at the time. And those are all businesses that we subsequently helped, like scale and grow. And kind of repeat the playbook and help sell for hundreds of millions of dollars. So like Vitacoco's case, we helped them go public for like a billion. And we built our client base up to maybe like 30 businesses. And then we left in January of 2011. We left that firm, started this firm. We rented this space in the Meatpacking District, which was like ambient space above one of our few hospitality clients that we had, like right above their corporate office on 14th and 10th. And it was like me, Nick, and this guy Anthony that we brought. And then I, you know, we hired a office manager off Craigslist actually, this one Brianna who was like the absolute most important hire ever because she like was so cool and like she like worked in entertainment like UTA before. So like when clients came in, we're still building the office and it wasn't filled out, she was able to greet them and bring them to like the conference room. People like wouldn't notice that like things weren't built just 'cause she had such a great presence. But it was the 4 of us and, you know, we kind of grew it from there. And so today we've got, you know, 35 lawyers. We've got actually like 2 floors in that same place on 14th Street. And we've got an office in Santa Monica and we work with like, probably close to 2,500 companies in CPG across stage, from mid-market growth venture, kind of like a third, a third, a third. And then across categories from food and beverage, we've branched out from food and beverage to beauty, to spirits, to vitamins, mineral supplements, to baby, to pet, to some apparel. But it's all still very, very much it's all CPG, it's only the consumer-facing companies, and it is like Cycle Counsel. Like we, what we really do better than anybody else is we get involved, we become like really a partner in the business, and we help entrepreneurs strategize and guide their company in a much more effective way. Just because we've got the experience and the line of sight to be like, hey look, the people that come in after you, the people with experience, right? The people with like more reps doing what you're going to do. We know what they're going to want and look for. We know how they're going to attack this piece. We know how they're going to try to take you down in valuation. So from getting involved early, we can help you shore those things up. We can help you build those things up so that you have less weaknesses and a lot more strengths by the time you go do the exit. So it's a very rewarding practice. It's very tactile. It's long term. I don't have, which is unlike a lot of law firms, especially in M&A. I have like, I don't have very short-term relationships. I don't meet a company right when they're about to sell. Typically we've done it, but not typically. And like have like a 3-month relationship. I have like 5, 7, 10-year relationships with these clients. And it's a great way for me to practice law because it, it's much more rewarding, it's much more tactile, and you develop a much closer bond with with the businesses and the people that you're working with.

I talk about this a lot, actually, and especially on the podcast where it feels a lot easier to do business with people who feel like friends versus it's like a transaction with another business on the other side of the table because you actually genuinely feel like by the time you're really friends, you're helping each other and you're not like sitting there nickel and diming each other and it doesn't get like uncomfortable and weird.

I totally agree. Like, you know, Mike Rapoli always says success is best shared. Success is best when shared. And I wholeheartedly agree with that, right? And outside of like, you know, just like never having to work, I think like the best thing you can do is work only with the people that you like and respect and care about, right? And to be in that position today, I feel so absolutely lucky, you know, because look, when we were starting out, you know, we didn't know, we didn't know, we had no idea what Like when we started it, 2011, you know, we moved out, we had 30 clients, which was a lot. But like, are they gonna stay clients? Are they gonna move with us? Like they're not forced to pay us and we bill by the hour. So it's like, I don't know how much they'll use us or not. You kind of take anything that comes along because you have to. But to be in a spot where my day every day is really only filled with people that I really care about, respect, admire, and that, you know, who I want to enrich their lives. Like, I think that is— I just feel so lucky to be in that spot. I think that's the prime spot, like, you can be in a career.

I love that. I'm curious, I feel like in the early days, you know, you're running a startup. I've run a startup for a couple years now, and we both started in service-based. And so in the early days, it feels like you're pushing and pushing and pushing just to try to get someone to, like, come knock on your door. And you're lucky if anyone comes inbound. It's probably through customer referrals in the early days. And then there's a point, you guys have experienced it, Verbatim has experienced it, where all of a sudden something's flipped. And it's a combination of good work, talent, great marketing. It's a combination of a lot of things that all of a sudden you wake up and you don't even realize the transition, but people are knocking on your door. You have 10 sales calls a day and you're like, how did this happen? So I'm curious what, I'm sure there was a phase where you woke up one morning and you're like, turning pro. Things have, exactly. Things have changed. What was that moment for you?

For your context, that is the premise of this podcast. It's trying to understand those moments where you wake up and you're like, like, holy shit.

Yeah, yeah. I'd say, you know, I'd say when it really started to click that, you know, we were going to be able to kind of like pick and choose what we were doing, it was fairly early on when we started. I think it might have been 2013 or '14. And, you know, we'd— we'd— Happy Baby had been a long-term client, um, but we were working on a deal with M4 Denon, which went through. And then we were working on a deal with Blueprint to Hain Celestial kind of at the same time. And when those— and we got them both done kind of simultaneously. But once those things hit, law firms and service businesses are very much pinned against your successes. Um, people tend to not care about how many times you've struck out. They really care about how many home runs you've hit. Um, so from a marketing perspective, like once those things went through, um, just the inbox started to become a lot busier. Um, for, for us, just because we had such a, like, and still have it, an inch-wide, mile-deep niche, like the first couple years were a lot of customer referrals and everything like that. but it started to be like, you know, getting emails from people like, oh, I saw the press release, or like, oh, like, you know, I just read something about you guys. It started to move from like a direct customer referral who liked you and was like, you gotta use these guys, I've got a real affinity for them, to kind of like cold outreach. And, and honestly, you know, we were able to, and I would say we did this just by working very, very, very hard. Kind of like that first maybe 10 years of the firm, we were able to do it without a lot of real outreach, like without actively doing outreach. Like Nick and I went to the shows, we went to like kind of the top shows every year. And you know, that was a lot of outreach and a lot of, you know, top of mind and a lot of biz dev. But without doing like, you know, a ton more than that, we were able to build and scale the business to about like, maybe like 15 lawyers. And I think like once that started happening is when we really started to feel like, I like, you know, I was like renting a really bad studio on the Upper East Side, like when we first started, like with paper-thin walls. And I was like commuting, you know, kind of to the Meatpacking every day, which is like, there's no easy way to get there. I think it was like when that kind of started happening, I was like, all right, feel comfortable enough, I'm gonna go move to Chelsea. So it's like walking distance. You know, triple the rent type thing. But, um, yeah, that was definitely a kind of like the first turning point for us there.

What, looking back, what would you say are the most important aspects of relationship building as someone who, from what it sounds like, you've built a lot of, if not most, of your business off of being good at relationships?

Yeah, look, I think like maybe number 1, 2, and 3 is authenticity, you know. Um, I think that is the bedrock of relationship building. And I think, you know, a lot of times why people don't lead with that, especially when they're younger, is because they're concerned like, hey, being myself is going to exclude certain people from that funnel, right? Which is true. It always will, right? Like if you are a diehard, a Yankees fan, there's going to be a diehard Dodgers fan that doesn't want to work with you because you're diehard, right? So, but, you know, relationships that are built on sort of the authentic you are the strongest ones. And the ones that aren't, you know, are really just, just sort of superficial business relationships, which is okay. But, you know, like every relationship, things have their ups and downs. They have their difficult times, right? And when you're working with businesses that are fast-growing, scalable businesses, like having an authentic, real relationship is what keeps the client, right? Like there's a point when a company, you know, I've had businesses tell me, hey, look, we've staved off getting in-house counsel even though like probably economically that's the thing we should do. Because we wouldn't interface with you as much, you know. And, um, and that feels great. I never really push that. I never tell anybody not to get the in-house counsel. I think it's, you know, but like, that is a testament to sort of the bond we've developed with a lot of our clients, not just me, but like the other lawyers in the firm. Um, and, you know, like, but there is a point where, as any service provider, right, like, your, your client outgrows you. Like, at a certain point, you know, you become so big, like, all the biggest firms and all the biggest agents and all the biggest wealth managers, like, that's who they want to work with. They get to a certain size and everybody jumps on and will offer them the whole world, right? And in those instances, the only time you don't lose a client, and, and we rarely often do, is when they're like, well, no, I'm not leaving because of the relationship, because what we developed. And a lot of times it's because Hey, look, the entrepreneur feels that I understand them as well, right? And that's so important, like, for an advisor, right? Like, if you're advised— on the other side of things, if you're an entrepreneur and like you have advisors around you and they don't really understand you, how can they give you great advice? How can they actually help you? It's like your therapist. Like, if you lie to your therapist, you're not going to get— you're not going to get a good, good result, right? Like, if you're inauthentic with the advisors you put around yourself, you're just not gonna get the best advice. You're not gonna be the best part of you in there, 'cause they're just not, it's not gonna be because they're bad, it's because they've got imperfect info. Yeah, so authenticity.

[Speaker] I think when it comes to authenticity in business relationships specifically, like in the context of a sales cycle as an example, I think the coolest ones are when you're not even thinking about being authentic or like, do I like this person? Those are the best ones where all of a sudden you're working together and you didn't, that you didn't even realize. When Ben and I met, in 4 weeks we just, we'd put down, we'd already ordered equipment. The second time we met was at Best Buy, and the card was out and we were just paying for equipment.

[Speaker] True story.

[Speaker] There was no, do I like this person, does he fit with my values? You're kinda just doing something, and same with clients. A lot of the clients we work with, again, not everyone needs to be your best friend, but a lot of the ones that I have become friends with, there's no even discussion of contract. You're kind of just chopping it up.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, we've been working together for like 3 months.

Well, look, I think a lot of times the best business development occurs when you go into, you know, professional environment and you go in there without much of an agenda other than getting to know the person.

Yep.

Right? Because like, I see it like— and when I was younger, I used to do it. Like, you go to a work event and you're like, all right, I need to get XYZ123, right? And like, you can see the people, like, you can, like, you can feel the people when they're going and they're talking and they're doing stuff who are like, who don't really care what you're talking about. In the back of their mind, they're trying to get to some, some, some result, right? And like, that'll work, I don't know, 1 out of 10 times. But if you just go and get to know people, right, like Maybe it doesn't lead somewhere. Maybe you get to know someone and then they hire you in 5 years or 10 years or whatever it is. But like, I think it does have a higher rate of return in terms of good business, right? In terms of good business relationships. Because one, you get to know the person, you understand the person, but like most people, when you're talking about hiring someone or like buying their company or when you're selling to someone, Like, one of the most important things is like, do I want to be around this person? You know, do I want to talk to this person? Do they make my skin crawl, you know? Or, or, or do I enjoy it? Like, or do I, or do I get some benefit that maybe isn't even just directly through, through the sales part, right? Like, people come to our firm not just because of the amazing legal work we do. They come to our firm because, you know, we are so entrenched in this industry, like we offer so many things outside of that and so many insights and connections and introductions and, and just ability to connect dots. But that's totally non-legal, right? But, but it is, it is something that people like value so highly that sometimes the core part is just secondary to it.

How, how do you think about like how your firm has evolved compared to other traditional law firms where it's like, I, I think people know you as like a lawyer and a legal firm, but you're way more than that, as you just alluded to. But I don't think every law firm has had the ability to carve themselves out to— with that public persona?

Yeah. I mean, you know, from an— from a law firm standpoint, we have such a unique positioning in that, like, we're just such an inch wide, mile deep. Right. And that sort of begets a lot of other opportunities, just sort of becoming like industry known in the industry, experienced in the industry. Being educated in pieces of the industry, having relationships that are sort of, you know, non-client relationships, but like, you know, business relationships that are complementary in the industry. And then also doing one thing, right? Like we only do corporate M&A. Like if you get sued, you don't want me representing you 'cause I don't know what the hell I'm doing in a courtroom. Like it would go absolutely terribly, right? You know, but I've got a network of people I'll outsource it to outside the firm. And people are like, why don't you do litigation? Why don't you do trademark filings? I'm like, look, I love doing what we're the best at, and I have people I know that are the best at what they do. I'll give it to them. Just work with the best people, right? Most law firms, to grow, you got to add partners and people start to say, I've got to get broader and broader and broader. And eventually you're kind of so broad that you're kind of like, just like everybody else, right? My sort of ethos has been there's enough here to grow, you know, to 100 lawyers plus just doing what we're doing. But also because we're small and because, you know, we're boutique, um, you know, like 35 lawyers, you know, it's relatively still small. But like, it does allow us to get involved in businesses in a much deeper way. It's allowed us to, you know, invest in businesses. It's allowed us to you know, add other roles that are more sort of strategic, um, to sort of our service offerings that like a traditional law firm couldn't do, right? Once you add people that aren't sort of like doing exactly the same thing, it sort of starts to become a little too bureaucratic, especially look when you get a bunch of lawyers involved, right?

You know, how do you think about— you brought up an interesting point, which is the investment piece. Like, what is it? Do you have anyone on the team that is like investment focused? Is it just kind of you guys as lawyers knowing what you're looking for? And then I'd be curious to know how you think about an opportunity where you want to invest versus just be like a service provider.

Yeah, so, um, we don't have anyone on the team that's investment focused. Um, I will say that, you know, at least all the partners— and we've got 6 partners— um, are so specialized in CPG that like, and probably none of them can work a freaking spreadsheet, but like they're so specialized in CPG that like all the sort of indicators of success they can, they can see, right? Like, you know, if you're a beverage and like Big Geyser is taking you in New York, like that's an, that's an indicator of success, you know? If you're a beauty product and like Sephora is taking you on, like that's one of the indicators of success, right? And so from our line of sight, we're able to see a lot of those indicators. And, you know, I've got enough of financial wherewithal to like understand, hey, look, this is generally what people want. Do you have these things? Like, do you have a good margin? You know what I mean? Are you capital efficient? So we've got the skill set and, you know, and my partner Nick, like recently You know, he even transitioned from lawyering to, you know, just investing with the Humble Growth Company. Um, you know, I'm running the law firm these days, but, you know, Nick is— Nick is out running Humble Growth.

Um, which is investment arm. I don't think I'm familiar.

It's totally separate, totally separate company. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Humble Growth is totally separate, and Nick's a GP on that, and that's kind of where he spends like 98% of his time. Um, and that's really a testament to kind of our line of sight and our experience in this. You know, Humble Growth is doing CPG generally, but it's not doing tech or anything like that.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, but you know, in terms of like, in terms of looking at companies that, you know, you want to invest in, um, you know, like the rule of thumb is like you want to invest in the companies that you can't invest in, right? And the companies that people are begging to invest in, you generally probably don't. And the great thing about the position we're sitting in is because of the relationships and because people do see us as value-add, we get lots of opportunities to invest in businesses that nobody else can invest in. And so that's just a very binary rule of thumb for us. But then when you take that down a little bit more, let's say you're talking about something pre-revenue or you're talking about something really early on, You're kind of looking at the founder, the person, you're looking at the product, and you're looking at the timing. Is this the right person, product, and the right time? Because plenty of products have come out a little too early or a little too late that would've been just absolutely home run smashes if they hit the timing exactly right. But I think those things, those 3 things are the most important. And it kind of goes, I think it goes, person, timing, product in terms of like, especially early on, right? Like the founder is almost everything. Like, are they running through walls? Are they going to, like, how easily are they gonna give up? What is their ultimate desire? Do they have a track record with this, right? Like, I mean, second-time founders, can be hit or miss depending on what's the motivation, right? Like the founder that's got that burning fire that had the exit, but that can't stay at home and kind of needs to do it, like you bet on that person every time. The founder that could take it or leave it, second time, they just have some friends that need a little bit more money and they're kind of doing this. You see 'em, like they come and, they get funded and they don't take off. So much early success is just about that founder's force of will just pushing it out there.

[Speaker] Yep, I wanna talk about your mindset about not moving into adjacent verticals or different ICPs, because in theory, kind of standing where you guys are now, you've had a ton of success. It's easy to say looking back, oh, we stayed in this ICP and I was never tempted to go outside of it. I'm sure there have been moments where this really hip, well-funded B2B SaaS company within the CPG or supply chain ecosystem raised a ton of money and wants to go work with you and you're staring down a big money sign. Were there tempting moments or did you guys try it, realize it wasn't for you?

Look, we've done it like on rare occasion, and it's usually been because it's been a friend of the firm, a founder who moved over. But I tell them, I'm like, look, like If you're in CPG and you're starting a company, I think wholeheartedly there's nobody better than us to do it. If you're starting a tech company, like, I won't screw it up, but there's probably people— there's probably a lot of people just as good as me, and there's probably a couple people that are a lot better, right? And that add a lot more. And, you know, sometimes people are like, well, we want to use you anyways, you know, when that comes around.

I'm telling you, I'm telling you, I mean, everyone knows this, but it's like The sales where you don't give someone the time of day. Dude, we had my co-founder and I, like, we've just been hiring like crazy and we're understaffed because our growth has been better than we could have expected. And there was one particular prospect where, like, we just, like, dropped the ball between the two of us and communication of who was following up. And this guy said 3 follow-up emails, like a holding company of, like, 7 brands. He's like, I'm waiting for you guys. I'm waiting for you guys. And I was just, like, laughing to myself, like, okay, at some point You obviously got to, like, respond. And it was, it was a genuine mistake. But I was like, this guy is like craving what we can offer him more because it seems as though we were neglecting him, although it was an honest mistake. But he's like coming back and it's psychology. And I feel like that's a very simple sales thing that you learn. But it becomes funnier when, like, it's not even on purpose and it's just genuine. You're like, hey man, I'm a CPG lawyer. Like, I don't really specialize in tech. Like, we don't care. We still really want to use you because we've seen all these press releases of all the crazy things you've done.

Yeah. Yeah, um, yeah, and, and then look, I mean, from a, from a pure business standpoint, there's so many efficiencies like in what we do that I'm able to work— like a company that's just starting out, we can service that business same way we service a business that's doing a billion dollars in revenues right now. We're going to take our more junior lawyers But like, we've got the database of knowledge that like a founder just starting out, like the stuff they're doing, it's kind of like in the box, like the initial stuff. But then even the, like the first couple things that might have some industry specificity where like somebody doesn't know what they're doing is gonna have to like figure it out.

Like, is this right?

Is this wrong? Like, is this even okay to ask for? We've got, like, they're gonna deal with that party. I've done 100 deals with that party, and we're going to be able to go to our database and say, look, generally, for where you're situated, they might accept some of these things, right? Like, this is general— in the general— everything's, everything's bespoke, right? Like, every, every relationship's the same. Like, maybe they don't like you that much, who knows? But like, I can tell you with very, very good certainty that these are reasonable things and that this makes sense. It'll hit your market. And CPG, I can do that up and down the line. Right. And so you mean—

so not— sorry to cut you off. You have like a database of like clauses or behaviors that are like consistent with certain like investment firms or people that you can like look back on?

More or less.

That's a crazy concept as a business in and of itself.

Yeah, more or less. Right. And, and I've got, you know, multiple, multiple interactions with the different firms and the different— and the different acquirers. Right. So like, you know, we're able to make it efficient early on and later on we're able to make it really value-add, right? Because like, like, you know, in beverage, there's no other law firm, I think, that sold a business to Coke and has sold a business to Pepsi and has sold a business to KDP other than us. Right. And like, you know, KDP, I don't know, they've signed up like, I don't know, 5 outside brands or 10 or whatever. I think we've done like, I don't know, 4 to 6 deals with KDP for their national distribution, right? So like a lot of these, a lot of examples like that where, you know, anybody else walking in the situation is going to be starting from zero and they're going to have to figure all this out. You know, we, we move that line up a lot further. So, you know, you, I step outside that, I don't know, I don't know, you know, I could figure it out, but like I don't have all of that benefit, right? And that really allows us in where we work to add this really efficient, really sort of like strategy-based legal work that I think no one else can offer because of that experience set. And stepping outside that, you know, you just drop off cliff and we're like everybody else. So, you know, for me it's always made sense even when I started, like when I started out, when I was lawyering like before Vitaminwater, when I was doing corporate law, like in my mind I was like, look, the way the law world is, you need to be doing something where you can have a differentiation, right? And law is also like an old person's game, right? Which I'm now am, right? But like back then I was like, how do you get good at something quickly? And I looked at like, like what commercial real estate lawyers were doing in the city. And they were just getting slammed, right? Because like there's a dime a dozen. It's hard to differentiate yourself. All the, all the information's out there. It's just relationships, right? And so I was looking for something that I could get, could get into where not a lot of people were focusing. It was a growth, it was a growth area and become an expert in really quick. Like if I was, if I was like, you know, if I was coming out of law school now, I'd be going into AI law, right? Like, or if it was last year, it'd be, uh, Web3, or then it would be crypto, you know, but like, and then it'd be cannabis, like whatever, like whatever the new part is that's developing that, like, you know, there are no experts in AI, right?

They're lying to you if they tell you they are.

Or the expert in AI has been an expert for like 5 years, right? There's nobody with like probably 20 years. Maybe there is, if that person—

there's probably—

sorry, but like, yeah, yeah, but like it's so nascent that you can become an expert in it relatively quickly. So I was always looking for something like that. And like, you know, the Vitaminwater thing presented itself and it was— I was always into health and wellness. So like going deep into that always made sense to me because of that competitive moat that was, that was credible.

How do you think about longevity as a services business? Because when I was first starting Verbatim, I was talking to Chris Fenster over at Propeller, and he's always been like a friend and a mentor of mine. And when we were first talking, that was his first piece of advice. Advice. He like walked me— I think they've been in business 10+ years, probably similar length to you guys. And he was talking about how repeat founders, you know, would start coming in and coming in. And one of the things he really pointed out or made sure to stress to me was that someone you meet may be a customer in 6 years and you just need to stay in the game. And staying in the game is easy when things are flying and a ton of business is coming your way. But I'm curious for you, not only talking about longevity of the firm, But when things aren't going as fast as you want them to, how do you make sure to say to yourself, all right, it's okay, we can slow down, fix this, but we need to stay in the game?

Yeah, I think in service business, longevity is like the biggest benefit of a service business, right? Um, you know, it takes maybe 10 years working all the time to become really good at being a lawyer. Right? But like, once you've done that, it's like you could do it till you're 70, 80, 90 if you wanted, you know? Like being an athlete, right? Like you can be an athlete till you're like, I don't know, 28, you know? And, and then you— then it gets really, really hard. Like being a— working with your mind, being any service thing, it actually gets easier over time. Um, so That's the one— that's the benefit on longevity, right? Like, you gotta have patience. Um, but then taking a long-term view on things, like, you just— I think you have to go into a service business or, or, or like a mindshare business with a long-term view, right? Because it's an asset that doesn't depreciate that quickly and does appreciate over time. And like, you know, you have to say, if you're, if you're, if you're working at it, it's not hitting immediately like obviously always be thinking about what you're doing. We were always tinkering with our stuff. Like at one point we were like only taking clients that were like doing $3 million in revenue, right? We were just, we've always been trying. Now we won't do that. Now we, you know, now we'll take pre-rev if it's kind of the right combination of people, right? But we're always tinkering a little bit to make it work better and to get better offerings and to get better clients. But like, you gotta have patience and you, you gotta have— you have to know that, you know, any sort of mindshare business— and, you know, Chris is in that business too, Chris, a good friend— you know, you build it up over time. You build that sort of— you build your notoriety up over time. And, and you got to think of it as an investment. And look, like every other entrepreneur, so much of success is just not quitting. Just not quitting, you know. And, and it, it's— everybody goes, you know, through rough patches, and a lot of times the determination between success and failure is just who quits and who doesn't, you know, who finds an answer and who doesn't.

Weren't you going to be a doctor?

I was, yeah. I, uh, I was, uh, yeah, I was a molecular and cellular biology major. And I wanted to be a surgeon at first, and then I, uh, realized I don't like dissecting people, so that, uh, kind of took that off the table for me pretty quick. And then, um, you know, uh, Tulane— I went to school in New Orleans— and, uh, I, um, they had a great genetics program, so I was like, oh, maybe I'll work genetics. Like, genetics is kind of like, you know, this is like '99, 2000, like, this is like a hot word, maybe I'll go into that. Um, and then I worked in a, like, a genetic research laboratory in New Haven where I'm from over the summer. I was like 19, and, uh, like, it was just like, like so introverted and sterile of a place. I was like, I don't know I could do this. Like, I don't know that— like, I don't— like, everybody there was so introverted, and like, it was a— it was a lab, so like you had these halogen lights, it was like bright, stark. I was like, I don't know if this is for me. I want to do something I found out from that I wanted to do something that was a lot more interactive with people, um, but I was like deep down the road at that point. So, you know, I wasn't sure what to do. I, uh, ended up actually, um, working at and then running a bar in college called F&M's Patio Bar in New Orleans. If anybody goes to New Orleans, check this place out. It's great. It's phenomenal.

Is the boot still there?

The boot is still there. Boot's still there. The boot Boot was definitely number one for Tulane, but I think F&M's— and I'm probably a little biased— was, was definitely number two. And, and when I was working there, I started to sort of notice how people's, like, tastes were sort of moving. I would be doing ordering and like, I would be ordering less Miller Lite and like more Albedo Amber or like Dixie. And I was like, oh shoot, okay, people like just sunk in my mind, like, people want less mass-produced stuff and they want more artisanal stuff, right? And I kind of sat there and I finished college and then I actually just stayed in New Orleans and just ran a bar for a year. And it was awesome.

That's a great year.

That's awesome.

Yeah, wow.

It definitely set me up to work really hard in law school.

Uh, what part of the city was it in?

Uh, it was— so it was in Uptown. It was on Chapultepec. It was like right up Uptown from, uh, Tipitina's, which is like this famous music—

great spot.

Yeah, yeah.

I think people do underestimate how much you actually learned from that experience.

Absolutely.

Like, it definitely wasn't the thing you're gonna retire off of, but, but the tangible skills that you probably learned there that translated into what you've built today, it's like very relevant.

Oh dude, the, the interpersonal skills, right? And the, hey, like if you want to have a big night, when the first people come into the bar, like you have to talk to them. Like you have to have the music at a certain level. Like you have to create an environment where people come and stay. And then like, you know, like when the bachelorette party comes, like you have to like get the guys to buy them a drink so they start talking. So it creates an environment. Just developing that stuff is in business or in social stuff is so like useful, right? Um, but anyway, so, so I took a year and just did that. And then, uh, you know, I had an opportunity to like buy a bar with like two of my mentors there. And like, you know, I had enough money for it in like cash and like coffee cans like above my, above my kitchen, uh, sink or whatever. And Then the bar was under a lease, and the only leases I'd ever signed or dealt with were apartment leases. So I was like, oh, what happens in a year when it comes up? What do we do? And I just realized I didn't know enough about business to start a business, right? So I was like, all right, what am I gonna do? So my dad's a lawyer, and I was like, maybe I'll do law with, medicine or doctors or something like that. So I took the LSAT while I was doing that and went to law school and just wasn't totally sure what I was gonna do. But when I found this firm that Nick was working at in Vitaminwater, it all kind of came together, right? I was like, oh, here's an opportunity to do something that people want, 'cause people want, people are tired of Gatorade, they want something. And here's something where I can have a competitive moat. Here's something in health and wellness. Um, yeah, so just all like, just, I kind of, I didn't know what I want to do for a while exactly, but I knew like what I didn't want to do. I found what I didn't want to do by trying stuff, and like I just kept things in the back of my mind. I kept sort of my ears and my eyes open, and eventually they all kind of like conflue somewhere.

Yeah. Last question on my end before we wrap. Is around relationships. And I know you talked about, I mean, you seem like a really natural builder of relationships and specifically deepening relationships. But in business, when you do that for years and years and years, the benefit is that you meet all these great people who it's completely blurred lines. Like we're friends, we're partners, we do business together, we're clients. That's on one hand an incredibly beautiful and rare thing. On the other hand, how do you keep up with so many folks?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that's a great question. Um, I haven't had children yet, so that's one thing. Um, definitely has given me an advantage. Um, but, um, I will— look, it's just, I love it. I love people. I love being around people. Um, I'm an extrovert. Like, being in a crowd of people, it gives me energy. It doesn't take energy, right? So like, that's an advantage to me because Not everybody can say that, and some people naturally deplete on it. So I've got more of an affinity for it, but it's also just making the time to do it. Um, I will say that like even when I'm doing social stuff, like downtime stuff, they're very oftentimes with people that I also do business with, right? So like my, my personal life, my business life is very inextricably intertwined. Um, and it, it is good and bad, right? It allows me to keep up with people, But look, business is also business. So sometimes you have hard conversations that like you don't like to have. And most people don't like to have tough conversations when you have to have them with your friends. So you've got to be open to that, right? And you've got to be open to giving it and receiving it. But, but yeah, that's basically how I manage it.

I have one question because I'm sure there's a lot of brand people listening to this. You see everything. What would you say are the biggest trends that you're noticing in like the CPG consumer world today?

Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, one, one sort of thing, I think meat's back. Meat is back in food and bev, you know. You see, hell yeah, you know, everything was sort of plant-based, plant alternative, but like people have gone back to meat. Um, I think a macro trend is just like intelligent nutrition, personalized nutrition, personalized beauty, you know, just like taking data from you and either marketing or developing things directly to you. I think in like 10 years, if we're back here, like there's gonna be, you know, the science isn't really there yet to really get it, but I think 10 years it might kind of be there. I think 30 years, you know, brands might just be totally personalized. 50 years, I think they definitely will be. So I think like kind of the more you can touch on those things, especially if you're like in like a SaaS or a tech or anything that sort of touches on that, like food tech or whatever, getting into the personalization and like, you know, getting smart about people's individual biomes is probably the smartest thing you can do now.

Are there any specific brands that you're obsessed with right now?

Oh, I mean, a lot.

He's got to be diplomatic in this response.

Maybe to filter especially like younger brands that just came on the scene.

Yeah, younger brands that came on the scene.

The trailblazers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really like the guys from Halfday. I really like what they're doing with the teas. Um, uh, I really like Barcode, uh, the sports beverage. Um, I really like, um, uh, uh, Caldera Labs, like the beauty company, men's skincare, all over Instagram. I mean, I use it. I mean, I don't— I mean, don't blame me for this, but like, don't blame them for this, but like, it's a— it's great stuff. Um, yeah, and look, I mean You know, I'm going to Fancy Foods the next day. I'm hoping to meet a couple other brands that I haven't seen or heard of doing stuff. So awesome, man.

Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you coming on. You want to look at the camera, let everyone know where they can find you?

Yep. Uh, hey, I'm Ryan Lewenden. Uh, you can find me on Instagram at Ryan Lewenden. You can find me on LinkedIn at Ryan Lewenden. Um, and, uh, you can check the website out. It's www. Glaw.us. Oh yeah, thanks.

First lawyer on the pod.

Boom! Wrap.

There we go. Awesome.

That was great.