#045: How Sexologist Alexandra Fine Took $575k in Crowdfunding and Turned it into a Buzzing Dynasty

healthy sex is supposed to feel good. It can also feel bad, you know, like, but it should also like overall feel good in the moment, even if the pain is causing pleasure. There's nuance there. But also afterwards, you shouldn't think about it and feel regret or feel, oh no, it should continue to give you pleasure after. Sex is powerful. It can fill us with life and joy, and it can also like fill us with shame and trauma.

Alex Fine, CEO and co-founder of Dame Products, has been a transformative figure in the sexual wellness industry since the company's inception in 2014. Founded alongside Janet Lieberman, Dame emerged from a need to create better sexual wellness products designed specifically for women. Under her leadership, Dame aims to close the pleasure gap and destigmatize sexuality through thoughtful, innovative product design, empowering people to prioritize their sexual health. In this episode, we delve into the inspiring journey of Dame Products from its entrepreneurial beginnings to becoming a notable name in the industry. Alex shares the strategic decisions that have driven their success, the challenges of navigating the market, and the dynamic growth of their product line. Welcome back to Season 2, Episode 8 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Alex Fine, who is the founder and CEO of Dame, joining us. Thanks for joining today, Alex.

No problem. Happy to be here.

So I mentioned this before we started, but for whatever reason, when there's content online about the category of sex, I feel like the engagement is through the roof because people are so curious to hear about it. And I think it's still a topic that people feel uncomfortable talking about. So when you have trailblazers like yourself who are just open and honest about it everywhere, people want to listen. So I'm excited for this conversation.

Yeah, I definitely think it's a conversation people feel like they're not allowed to have and crave.

Yeah, 100%. I think it would be awesome if you want to just start by maybe giving a little bit of backstory on what you're working on.

Sure. I'll give backstory on myself. And like, so I wanted to be a sex therapist for a long time. I have my master's in clinical psychology, uh, from Columbia. And, uh, I want to be like the next Dr. Ruth, but I was really impatient. I'm also like not the best listener. Like, I like to get things done. I want to fix problems, which is actually probably like not the best attitude for a therapist, but it is a good attitude for an entrepreneur. I ended up working in consumer goods for a little bit I was like a 3-person shampoo company and I learned so much there. I'm so grateful for that experience. And while I was there, I realized I wanted to start my own business and I wanted to bring my passion, like bring my passion for entrepreneurship, for my passion for passion, and merge them together. And there was just a— seemed like a really obvious hole in the market that was beckoning to be penetrated.

We connect. We were talking right before this that we chatted like 4 years ago or something.

Yeah.

And I'm curious—

it was more. It was more because I think it was pre-pandemic.

Yes.

Wow.

This is really taking us back.

Welcome back to 2024. We're moving.

Blast from the past. And so I'm curious, over the— walk us through the distinct phases of the business and how you also evolved.

Yeah.

Well, can you explain— can you explain what Dame is first?

Yeah, you're right. I didn't even get there. Sorry. No. So Dame is a sexual wellness brand. Um, we make toys and tools for sexual pleasure, mostly centered on people with vulvas, like the experience of women and people with vulvas.

I want to ask one question before we jump into that. What is the best-selling product that you guys have?

Oh, it actually really varies. Like, our lube is actually our highest quantity moving product, but you know, it's, um, people add it to— it goes with a lot of the other products, so that's, that's a reason for that. I would say Eva and Pom are generally neck and neck. Eva is the product that we launched with, so we launched on crowdfunding. So I launched the— I launched the brand 10 years ago, which is really wild. Yeah, um, and I've been working on it now for almost 11 years, but in October of 2014, I launched an Indiegogo campaign for Eva. It's a hands-free vibrator that you can wear during penetrative intercourse, so it stays on top of the clitoris and doesn't block the vaginal opening. And about 70 to 80% of people with vulva need clitoral stimulation in order to have an orgasm. So being able to get that, uh, during sex seemed like a no-brainer. I had somebody in the industry tell me I invented the Holy Grail of vibrators, which I really, really, um—

Is that quote on the website somewhere?

No, it's got to be on the header.

Oh my God, I'm gonna make that happen. I know, I know, I know a guy.

You know, that's, uh, we do need to make that happen. That is a really good quote. Uh, it's funny how in like organic storytelling you realize the like good marketing copy and, you know, points. Anyway, so I started, so we, we made this product. I partnered with an engineer who went to MIT who was also just really interested and already working on this category. And like the universe just pushed us together. It was really awesome. Um, so we launched on Indiegogo, we raised $575,000 in 45 days on this product, which was a pretty wild experience. I like— that was incredibly validating, and I had already started experiencing both what, like, uh, some, some non-validating experiences in the world of VC. So it was really powerful to like go to the people and people really want the product and then be able to finance and get the business off the ground that way, um, is, you know, such a, such a priv— it's so amazing.

From a financing lens, ups and downs of your experience with venture capital, not only in CPG but specifically sexual wellness?

I mean, I would say like from a finance lens, like so much of it, like at the end of the day, the business an inventory CPG company predominantly. Actually, like, that's what it is. And inventory management is a whole beast of its own, you know, like the terms you have with your manufacturer, the lead times, the MOQs, those things can create such intense cash flow whiplash in, you know, your bank account, your model. Um, and I don't know, those were things that I got really excited or learned a lot about that wasn't related to sex, you know, from the beginning. I don't know if there's a sex metaphor there. I don't think there is. Inventory management's tough. But I remember reading Shoe Dog. Did you guys read Shoe Dog? It was And I just was like, oh, same, same. Like, so there's so much of that book that I can't relate to. We were like, they're mailing things to each other across the world. I mean, we are, but it takes a lot longer and now it takes no time at all. We have Zoom. It's insane. But then on the flip side, you know, he constantly had cash issues because of inventory.

Was it the Japanese credit facility that he kept going back to?

No, he had like the Japanese manufacturers where they were like shipping, like he's like talking about waiting for like product. And I've had that experience like waiting for like the first product that comes off the line or the prototypes. It's so exciting. You know, wait like so much longer than I would have to wait. And there wasn't VC at the time and it's like a very different, like financial system that we get to live in now. And then my ups and downs with VCs, you know, I think about it a lot. Like, I think I would definitely not be where— it's for the first 6 years of the business, we more or less bootstrapped. Some friends and family, definitely friends and family, like a good amount. But we really struggled to get institutional financing. And like, I feel like I talk about this moment all the time because I look at it And it was like a leveling down moment, if you will. The opposite of turning pro.

Turning down moments.

Or now I see it and I'm—

or now it's all perspective. It probably was a turning pro moment.

Or maybe like, I think a turning pro moment was realizing how, like, okay, so I remember crying because I had a really great call with a VC that I was really excited about and they ended up turning us down because we were doubling year over year, but we weren't tripling. And they really wanted to see us tripling. And they didn't care that at the time we were profitable, like we were doubling year over year profitably for the first 6 years of business. Like that was pretty much what we did. That's amazing.

Incredibly hard.

That's incredibly hard to do.

How's this VC doing today?

I think, you know, they've pivoted as a lot of the CPG VCs have. It's really hard to You know, I think people are trying to apply a model to tech brands, to these CPG brands, and some of these CPG brands were like, we're a tech company. It's like, you're not.

Casper, the technology company.

Uh, yeah, so it would definitely be one of them. And this VC— actually, I'm not sure. I don't know. Uh, but you know, they, they're— I think they're doing probably just fine.

But anyways, what was— so the moment happened where they turned you down.

They turned me down. I was so upset about it, and I felt like we were doing a bad job. I thought I was a bad CEO. Like, that's like— I internalized it in some way. And like, I look back on it now and I see it for what it was, and I see, um, that, you know, I think venture capital, especially at like the time that I started my business, like, which was like when Casper was heyday, like digital native vertical brand, um, like VC, like that was the headline. That was the— you were getting attention because you were raising capital, not because you were doing well. In fact, I know we talked. Yeah, exactly. Like, so, you know, it was just, you know, the water that I was swimming in didn't allow me to see myself clearly. And I wonder I don't know. I wonder if I had maybe better support or had let more people in. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But I know it now. Now I know. I— now I have a clearer, more internal definition of success.

I also can confirm that she has investors who love her because I coincidentally had coffee with one of your investors last week and we were talking about their portfolio. Like, yeah, we have this one company, Dame. Uh, they like acquired another business. I was like, wait, we're working with them? And he's like, actually? And I was like, yeah.

That's—

and then, and then I was like, wait, I think she's actually going to come on my podcast in a couple days. So I can confirm your investors do love you.

That's nice to hear. I do some— yeah, I want to be a good investment. It's a weird thing to say.

No, but I think more founders, founders listening should take what you just said and actually internalize that.

Yeah, I get, um, and I think that founders should also think of themselves as investors. And it's just at some point all of a sudden you kind of are too, and you realize like, oh, do I want more equity? Like, what do I want? And how are you truly valuing the company? I think we seem to be incent— like, we are incentivized to overvalue the business and then to sell it over— like, as right, like, not overvalued, but at the highest value that you can. But I think some businesses are hurting because they can't live up to the value.

I love that quote, by the way. I've actually never heard anyone say that, and I think that's an amazing quote of founders should think of themselves as investors. Because if you actually think about it at a fundamental level, what's happening is an investor is giving you money to invest. I think it's different because you're investing in people, you're investing in product, you're investing in time too.

Sometimes I wonder, okay, what if there was a VC firm out there that This is like Alex's next idea when she sells Dame. Yeah, this is like—

we can all start a new company.

I'm sorry, we all have a ton of free time. So we have so much free time, but I do still love just getting high and thinking of business ideas. Like, that's just one of my favorite activities. It's like my favorite activity. Uh, sounds great.

Uh, on brand for Greenpoint native right here.

Yeah, we probably would have needed some approvals to just like smoke a joint right now and talk about big ideas, but I'm, I'm all in on this activity.

But I think like, I almost like getting You know, there's a whole— it's really hard to raise capital. It's very— it's expensive. So you raise a lot at once. I almost wish, like, I like the idea of like, I'm going to do this project and I need X amount of dollars for this thing. We're going to see if it works. And then I wish that there was another version of me which is maybe an investor or something like each doling out small amounts of money for specific projects. I think I wish that that is how money had been given to us.

But how do you— what does little mean to you? Because I think that's all relative.

So relative.

Because like, you think of like Sequoia, or they're little to them, is like, oh, just throw like $10 million at this company and see what happens.

And they don't want to talk to you. Like, I think that was a big mistake I made too in my early days of trying to raise capital, which was not raise enough capital, because I think I was trying to bite off more bit more than I could chew, not a ton more. And I didn't— what I didn't really understand is that they're looking for 20% often. Like, you know, a lead investor wants like 15-20%. They want a specific amount, they want a specific amount of power. There's certain things that they're looking for. So if you're not raising— if you're not saying you need enough money for it to be 25-30% of your company, people weren't interested. Does that make sense? Like, that's my— that was my experience then. I think because it's the returns that they're looking for, it's a math equation. Yeah. That's a math equation.

And yeah, I wanna, I wanna jump into the topic of sex because I have so many questions and I'm so curious. So my first one is your hero product. Where, where did this idea come from, Eva? And how did you get into this world?

Yeah, so I wanted to be a sex therapist for a long time, and I think I had both a combination of like just, uh, statistical knowledge or science, like just about the importance of clitoral stimulation, um, and the, you know, the pleasure gap. People with vulvas are not having as much sexual pleasure as their partners, especially only when their partners have penises. Um, so that is so unnecessary. And I mean, like, for me, like, it definitely comes back— in a lot of ways, I liked being one of the boys growing up, um, which, you know, it has some issues, but I think I was really excited to— like, I was really curious about sex, um, and that was like the first time in my life where I really experienced like, oh, if I do the exact same thing that you do, we're gonna get different reactions from our peers. And like, that was really shitty. And that I think is kind of part of like why I'm particularly interested in this and feel like like Samantha from Sex and the City. You guys watch Sex and the City? You guys know what Sex and the City is? Seen a few episodes. Seen a few episodes. Okay, uh, like, you know, I just want her to, like, she's also has some issues, but like, I think I was being sold that there was like, she could exist, but there wasn't really a lot of space for her to exist. It's hard. Um, so I don't know how I got here, but that was definitely part of like what made me really interested in the topic. And there was a science. I knew that there, like, 90% of my friends own vibrators, but nobody was following a brand on Instagram. No, no brand on Instagram was having conversations around this category in a way that resonated with the way me and my friends were talking about it.

Why do you think that is?

I think it's because they were mostly owned and operated by men, um, in like the '50s and '60s especially, like the sex toy industry got really kind of pushed and categorized and married to the porn industry. Um, so like you would go and get a vibrator back in the day at like a place that had a peep show, like those XX DVD shops that like— those then all of a sudden became— when DVD sales plummeted, they, they became sex toy shops. They are not— they don't feel like safe spaces. Um, I think that the idea of what, you know, like there was a brand out there who would have like women in stiletto heels taking off like a satin slip dress being like, shh. But like, women, that's like not your real experience masturbating. Your real experience masturbating is like, like wearing your shitty PJs and like, do you know what I mean?

Like, no, it's true.

Your t-shirt, you're not like getting dressed up for the experience. Sometimes maybe But mostly it's like a little bit more mundane. And it's a valid part of your like health and well-being. Like it impacts your mood, it impacts your day. It also can be telling about where we are. You know, like you ever have a day where you just like can't stay present with your partner? Like you're just thinking, like you just work just keeps creeping in. Like that's informative. That tells us about our mental health and also it's an opportunity to, you know, I like to say that like masturbation is like our OG form of meditation. It is a really like great way of checking in with yourself.

Do you think there are forms of unhealthy masturbation though? And I'm— I want to dive into that topic. And then the obvious second piece of that is just porn in general.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. Like when I talk about sex, I think that we have a lot of fear around sex I mean, for a lot of, um, sex isn't good or bad. Sex is powerful, you know? Like, it's literally how we exist. It can fill us with life and joy, and it can also, like, fill us with shame and trauma. Like, there's definitely bad sex, and I think especially as a woman, you know that even more profoundly. Um, it's like connected to the shame. So, oh my God, why— I don't even know how I got there again. Anyway, keep going.

I love it.

Um, but is there bad? Of course there's bad. There's definitely bad sex. There's definitely unhealthy sexual habits. Um, I think that one way to— like, I think healthy sex is supposed to feel good. It can also feel bad, you know, like, but it should also like overall feel good in the moment, even if it's like even if the pain is causing pleasure. There's nuance there. But also afterwards, you shouldn't think about it and feel regret or feel, oh no, it should continue to give you pleasure after. So that to me is important. If you feel regret about what you did in some way, or if you feel— I don't know, just like icky, some, you know, that like that, those are valid and we should honor that and adjust because it's not ideal. It's not what we're looking for.

We were talking to, um, a CBG founder who runs a health and wellness, like an electrolyte and supplement brand, right before this. And one thing that he mentioned, we were asking him about other electrolyte brands on the market, and he said something that's actually been really helpful is that like he doesn't see them as competition. Like it, it, it like truly like a rising tide is raising everyone's sails or raising everyone's boats. Because specifically for new supplements, there's so much education that's needed and they can't take it all on themselves. And so it actually helps when everyone's talking about it. So I'm curious, you know, probably around when we started talking, even before that, there were, you know, yourself included, there are a handful of brands coming to market with a really strong voice and a really strong educational message. So how do you view competition in the space versus, hey, we're, we're all here to educate everyone, and if more people are educated, we're all going to do better.

Yeah, I think it's like another moment too where VC comes to mind. Um, you know, I've been told that they're passing because they've invested in Ro Health or Hims Hers or Lola, which makes tampons. They do now make a sex toy, actually. So does Hims.

Um, Hims makes Yeah, all roads lead to sex toys.

All roads lead to sex toys.

Yeah, but they didn't start off that way.

No, it's like not their main thing. I don't know if they still have it on their site, but there was definitely a moment.

It's just the quick upsell.

It's—

yeah, it's like, oh, you want to get a vibrator and a dildo also to add to your cart? You might as well.

I think the idea is if you're looking for more sexual fulfillment, these are all valid tools to get there. And I think when I think about like uh, the CEO of, of, of Ro Health. He's got such a really— he's got such a great founder story that was like personal to him. And I think sometimes like, oh, I have a similar journey, but I have a vagina. And instead of ED meds that were part of that solution, vibrators were a part of that solution. But we— the system and the perception of vibrators is way less valid It also has a way different LTV, which I'm aware of, um, than erectile dysfunction medication. Um, but it's just interesting, like, I think we both were seeking healthy sex lives.

I'm curious, before you got into this, you used to play with fire. I— we need to talk about that.

Why do you know that?

You gotta come prepared to your research on this podcast.

I still can play with fire. I mean, I still love to play with fire.

Um, Just go back to like why and when that started. I'm so fascinated.

Oh my God.

Okay, I feel like that's so fitting, by the way. Like, I started playing with fire and now I have a sex wellness brand. Like, I— for some reason you like to push the boundaries.

I do. I really love growing edges. I really like thinking like— I really like it, uh, pushing a thought to its outer limit. Um, I hate shoulds. I hate shoulds. Okay, there's no reason why things, you know, like, I don't know.

Regret hurts a lot more than failure. It's one of my favorite quotes.

Which one?

Regret hurts a lot more than failure.

Yeah, I definitely think it's, you know, the do things fast and break things, like, that kind of comes naturally. It's obviously not ideal too, like, the goal is to not break things too, but it's hard. Um, anyway, we're talking about fire. Um, I don't know, don't you just like wish you could just fling fire around all the time? All the time. So that's the interest. No, okay, I want— I was a dancer for a long time, which I also think is really healing. Um, and actually my very first job was a bat mitzvah dancer, like, it was like a hype girl, you know, which is a great gig, uh, for lots of reasons.

Guess what my bar mitzvah theme was?

What was your bar mitzvah theme?

ESP Ben.

Like ESPN?

Yeah, I feel like that was pretty—

why was I saying that?

There we go.

We're gonna clip— we're gonna—

Alex, don't worry, we're gonna clip that. That's gonna be a viral clip like ESPN.

I grew up playing sports, by the way.

Apparently not.

Did you— are you Jewish?

I am not Jewish.

Did you go to a lot of bar mitzvahs growing up? Because that was like classic. Yeah, yeah.

But ESPN Ben wasn't that classic.

Mine was like—

you're the top Ben countdown, like top Ben plays.

Oh, that's good.

Clever. My mom made all the centerpieces.

Or did my mom?

Did she make all the centerpieces? She went— I mean, you understand.

I understand. I handed out sweatpants that said 'so fine' on the butt.

I liked all the custom hoodies. Yeah, at bat mitzvah, my high school, there are a lot of— I grew up in Miami. A lot of—

oh, same, same.

A lot of Jews.

Yeah, yeah, we're there. Um, yeah, so you know. And anyway, I was the bat mitzvah dancer. We would play with glow sticks. So I learned a little bit of how to like spin glow sticks around on a stick while I was that age. And then I got older, I went to more music festivals, I did more drugs, I went to Thailand, and somehow throughout all of that I learned how to spin fire. It's called poi. It is so fun. It's definitely like a, uh, state of flow, like a really concentrated state. So it's really nice to be—

and there's no— I mean, I feel like the obvious question is like, where does your mind go in terms of danger? Or it doesn't even go there when you're in that flow state of like playing with fire?

Um, I think— no, it's definitely there. Like, you definitely feel it on the outside, which is like why you're concentrating. I definitely think it's helpful to know that, like, to burn yourself once or twice, what does that really feel like? And then like, it's not— it's not— you can— you could really hurt yourself if you got tangled up in, in the strings. But for the most part, like, you can bounce the fireballs off of your arms. Uh, they're not that hot. And so I think also, like, being more comfortable with, with burning yourself and getting burned. And like, because you're gonna— if you want to change things, you're going to get burned a little bit. So like, learning how to do that is part of it.

Something I want to talk about is, I think you said grow your edges, or like grow into your edges.

Yeah.

That's one of my favorite lines, I think, that we've had over the—

you guys are talking to enough, like, therapist-y hippies. That's what's happening.

I think that's probably—

no, but you know what, I, I promise you, and Griff can tell you, who's our producer, I think that's 2 times in this episode so far we've said these are some of our favorite lines. If you watch every episode we've done to date, I don't actually think I've said that to anyone.

I don't think I've said that yet.

I'm starting a podcast, guys.

You should.

You absolutely— it would crush it.

You would crush it.

I'm calling it Horny for Life with Al.

Oh. You don't want to go.

It sounds like you already have this whole— it sounds like you already have this planned out. You just haven't like hit record.

I'm— no, no, I have hit record. It's launching next week.

Oh, you weren't kidding.

No, I'm not fucking kidding.

I thought you were joking. You're like, I'm going to start a podcast. Oh, like you're actually starting a podcast.

She's dropping bars and I'm like, you are the most eloquent podcast speaker I've ever talked to.

So funny.

You can film it right in the slipper room.

Because I have such a Long Island accent, so like sometimes I hear myself speak and it's like, oh yeah, you know.

This is now my third favorite line on the podcast.

But that is not— there's no— that was just funny. There's no value in that line.

Okay, I do wanna talk about going to the edge.

Dr. Steve. Dr. Steve, yeah.

So my favorite friends and founders, and a lot of time there's a blend of the two, are people that are unapologetic about how weird they are and how they like hit the edges. One of my, he now runs a CPG brand for like, first of all, his brand is, it's called Doc. It's for like elderly, elderly dogs and pets that have trouble on floors.

Yeah.

And so they're not kitten mittens, like Always Sunny in Philadelphia, but I forget exactly what they're called, but it's so that elderly dogs and pets don't slip on floors. It's like the weirdest, most niche thing, and they're crushing it.

They're crushing it. That's beautiful, because have you ever seen an old dog when you're getting— it's so—

slipping around.

My parents have one. It's really sad.

Oh my God, my dog got like just afraid of all of the wood floors, and it's like really sad.

But not only is it like a very real problem, but it's like those weird little things toward the edges of your interests or passions that can turn into cool businesses. And I feel like also the friends that we have Like if you think about your, you know, 5, 10, 20 friends kind of within concentric circles, usually the first that comes to mind is my friend that is unapologetically weird and that has really explored those edges. Like one of the, one of the reasons that we've become friends and that I appreciate you as a friend is you are very unapologetic about like your niche interests and you're just proud of them. And I'm sure for you there's friends that come to mind. You love them all equally, but there's that one that's like, super weird, and you just love that they've leaned into their edges.

Yes, I think that's accurate. Her name's Alana.

Oh, she already do.

Immediately comes to mind.

No, I have a few of those, but I think that, uh, yeah, I, I think leaning into your edges, knowing what makes you you in some ways, um, and owning it, it's so powerful.

Throughout your journey as a founder, maybe raising capital or growing a team or whatever it is, Were there any moments that you felt like you had strayed a bit from your edges and kind of your authentic self and maybe became more focused on inventory or focused on this founder lifestyle?

Oh, that's like not even the ways I feel like when it's showed up for me. Yes. Like there have been moments where like the day-to-day job feels less aligned, but I actually really love— like, I love Excel. So that's not as much like what it is as much as it's been Like, um, I know I've definitely left VC meetings where I'm like, oh, I said I would do something that I don't really— I'm not really that interested in doing. Like, you know, I've definitely, um, I don't know, you just have— I'm trying to think. I, I think owning your power is, is so much harder than we think it is. And not just owning our power, but also owning power, like when you become a CEO, um, and a lot more people look at you. I think this is also happening on social media now too, and like the feeling of like a bunch of people thinking you made the wrong decision is really scary and shitty. And if you let that fear stop you from like, you have to just like really, it's okay to make those mistakes. If everybody says something and they don't like that you wanted to get rid of summer Fridays and give everybody a week off instead, which is a good idea. Or both. What?

Do both.

I think we are doing both this year. I was just like, yeah, because they asked again about summer Fridays. I was like, all right, everyone wants summer Fridays. I'm not gonna, you know, my business is about like pleasure, but I do. I— that is hard though. I want to— I— finding where do I have boundaries, ways I'm people pleasing. There's been so much I've learned about myself through, uh, running this business. There have definitely been moments where I feel in and out of alignment constantly, um, and yeah, I think it's just about checking in with yourself. And realizing the changes you need to make to get back into alignment.

I want to learn more about setting boundaries, both from yourself, but I want to start with Ben Sharf, because as a friend, this is probably what I've learned the most from you that I'm most impressed by. Anytime I'm talking to you about a business colleague or a relationship, the way that you have clearly set your boundaries in the sand about how you want to be treated as a friend or as a leader or as a colleague. Walk me through how you process that. Is that like something you were born with, or is that something you've gotten better at?

Yeah, I think I've never had a filter, for starters.

I think that—

no, I think it really does play into that because I don't necessarily do the best job of like being diplomatic about communication in certain instances. But I think beyond that, especially since I started a company, it's when you recognize that you only have so many hours in a day and so many minutes that you can allocate to, to different activities, whether it's personal, business, fitness, whatever, that as you get busier and as more things are on your plate, you— I mean, I think this is like a logical thing, but at least this is how my brain processes it. Is I get more rigorous around how I spend my time and who I spend my time with because I know I only have so much of it. And I've also recognized that like people change and your interests evolve. And so I, I don't know, I had a moment probably in time where I stopped trying to like fit into this mold that other people wanted for me. Or like, I think— I don't know if you can relate to this.

Hearing you talk about not taking it personally.

Yeah, 100%.

You're like super aware that other people are living their lives and it might not have anything to do with you too. So you give space for yourself to change your priorities and space for others. I don't know, that's what I was—

yeah, but the other piece of it, and I'd be curious to hear your take, like, I grew up in a very traditional Jewish household. My dad's a doctor, my mom's a nurse. It was like, go to college, get your degree, go to the corporate world, get your really good job. Like, I— my household was like this very— it's like, you know, find your wife, have your kids, live happily ever after. And like, for the longest time, I feel like I did fit into that mold of like, I had really good grades, like, I had a lot of friends, I was good at sports, and it like you get to a point where in your mind it's like, okay, wait a minute, like, am I doing this for me or am I doing this because someone else told me this is what I was supposed to be doing? And you kind of hit that point where you explore your other curiosities that are off the beaten path, if you will, that might cast judgment from some people, whether it's family, friends, whatever.

Because we're— when you decided to start the business, were your parents like—

I gave up my corporate job 12 hours before my first day.

Yeah.

And I—

yeah.

And so then I realized that, like, I think business was a catalyst, and then it spilled over into my personal life. And you get to a point where it's like, life's too short, you don't have that much time, you might as well spend it doing things you like to do with people you care about. And so it got to a point where I think I accepted that by making some drastic changes in my life, there were certain relationships that were gonna, you know, go away. And that's just like the circle of life. There's a lot of people that were not enemies, but we're just not like best friends anymore because we've gone different ways. And so I think to tie that all together, the number one thing that I realized, it's acceptance. Like, you can't fight it. Like, you have to accept that that is the reality. And I think a lot of people don't want to accept it, which is why they try to fight to maintain certain relationships that aren't meant to be there anymore. That's why they let certain people walk on them, because they don't want it— they don't want that person to have a bad perception of them, whatever. And so they end up in this point of friction. And I feel like I've gotten to a place where I can let go of that friction.

Yeah, I, I think that that's right. I feel like I need to accept that like time— like I'm getting better at accepting how limiting time is. Like you really only have— you can't manage time, you can manage your priorities. Like is what it is. Um, but yeah, I've definitely gotten really good at accepting too that like some emails I'm not going to get back to. That's been really hard for me. I have like a—

that's, that's an interesting one. I'm at that— I, I'm not very—

I think a lot of guys— yeah, I don't know where that comes from. I like— I've been really surprised by some of my people-pleasing tendencies. Like, I don't need to write back to you. Like, especially if it's like a sales email. Like, I don't, you know, and even, even beyond that, like, I think becoming a mom has then been like a next level time. And just like being okay with, like, not just okay, like really owning, like, it's my time. I get to decide how I'm gonna prioritize it. I know how best to prioritize it. And if that means that an investor has to wait an extra day or 2 days to get the information, then like, that's okay. That's what's gonna happen. I also am realizing too that my investors trust me, that I do do a good job. And, or like, if you have that trust, it makes it easier too.

I think a big part of that, especially around communication, around timelines and deadlines, which all of our businesses are built on for a good reason. I feel like a big part of it is that not everything does need to be tomorrow or Friday end of day.

The creation of urgency is, is like, I think both are really valuable thing to learn how to do. Yeah. It's real. Like time will kill deals for sure. It's also made up and can be the death of you, right? Like it is such being on time, you know, like there's, like, ah, it's not what's really, really, really, really important, you know? It's not the only thing. I totally agree with that. I hate making timelines. If we make timelines, we do our best to stick with them, but like, it's not worth our mental health to like try— like, if we can move the timeline, we can decide we're going to launch the product 2 weeks later. Yeah, it doesn't feel great. But we can decide that.

I think especially in— I run an agency, like a service-based business, and I do this. I'm trying to get better at it. I think it's like natural people pleaser tendencies. Sometimes I'll be talking to a client and I'm like, oh, I'll have this tomorrow, end of day, because I think that's what they want to hear. And sometimes I'll get it to them end of day and they don't respond for like a week because you're busy and you're busy and I'm busy. And I'm like, why did I kill myself and push my team so hard to do this? Yeah, they don't care if I told them end of day next Friday. It's all just about that communication.

You could literally just decide you're never going to say end of day today unless somebody else asks you to. That's the other thing for me with emails too, is like, I actually really don't want my emails— like, emails grab my attention. I have ADD too, so like, all of a sudden I'm working on something that you asked me for and I have to be like, wait, this is not my priority for this week at all. So I almost prefer to like not look at my emails. And I have somebody else kind of forward me things through my email if they're really important.

Do you have that set up?

I— yes and yes and no. I still look at my email all the fucking time.

So wait, wait, walk us through that. You have an assistant that will essentially like screen your inbox?

Yeah, yeah.

I have a whole labeling— I have a whole labeling system with my EA.

I've never used labels.

Oh, my, my whole inbox is labeled. It's, it's emails that he's going to respond to, it's emails that need review, there's emails that he knows only I can respond to. And then he archives all the ones he knows that are not worth my time to be looking at. And so it's made me a lot more efficient in where I need to allocate my time.

Yeah, depending on like, I think having like a— I used to have, I used to have part of the system where I'd have somebody draft all my email responses too, which sounds like you do, and you just go through it and you press send.

Some of them, some of them I don't even look at.

That's what I do now.

Yeah.

Ed is so good.

You need trust. That's the biggest thing. You don't trust your EA. It's like, why do you have this person?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, another thing I want to talk about is what you did with Subway ads.

Yes.

Because that was a— that's like a trailblazer.

That felt like you guys real— I remember. Yeah. Okay, so I'll tell the story. So, uh, New York City Subway system— well, first of all, let me, let me tell you more about my company and some of the fucking challenges that I have. Okay, curse. I cursed.

Yeah, I do. No, this is a— this is a therapy. It's turning pro therapy.

Protherapy. Um, so often my business cannot run advertisements on lots of platforms. I can't run ads on Meta, Twitter, TikTok, you name it. If it's really for sex toys specifically, you cannot run the ads. Literally, the clause in their policies are often like real close to the firearms policy. Sometimes it's like, we don't allow advertisers for like adult entertainment, sex, like paraphernalia, you know, guns. No guns, no vibrators. Um, so, you know, no, there's a lot, there's a lot of things. And I do think it makes sense to have advertising policies like that to some extent. Um, but I cleverly got around it. I still think that, I mean, I think sex toys should be allowed to be advertised. Um, on Meta, I started advertising myself like, like I'm Gary Vee or something. Yeah, I don't know, just like— but I would take like the New York Times article that wrote about Dame and be like, thank you so much, New York Times, for talking about me and my journey. And we would boost that post, and we were, we were crushing it. We had like a on-first-purchase like 4x, like 4 to 1.

Wow.

On our, on our CPA. Yeah, it was like on first purchase, we were— it was great. I think it was like the— a few months of both, you know, profitable and cash flow positive. Um, and then like Meta just decided that the New York Times article was inappropriate because the New York Times article talked about a sex toy company. So like, that was— so then they just started shutting off all these ads, and it really really, uh, that was a challenging moment to navigate through. Um, so we've had that experience before, or we've had challenges with advertising. The New York City subway system, um, pretty much said we could run ads, and then they said we could not run ads because we were a sex toy business when we had planned— they'd already said we could, so we made all these plans. Um, they were like, we don't run any ads for any sexually oriented businesses. Meanwhile, like, literally that day there was like a 6-foot flaccid cactus It's like, you know, oh, the old Hims, all the Hims. This was back in like 2019, so all the Hims advertisements are up. Ro was advertising. Museum of Sex, which I just saw, is currently advertising, was advertising. They sell our products. Um, the— I mean, it was also like OKCupid had their GTF campaign. Um, there was campaigns for a moving truck company that said we'll move 'Your kids' toys and your adults' toys too.' I liked that one. So it was interesting how, like, all of those things were okay, but what we were doing wasn't okay. I would also argue that our ads are not salacious and they don't encourage arousal. They're very factual. So, you know, I think that's really different than running ads like where people are actually making out or where the ads are designed to actually create um, and it's like an arousing experience for you on the subway. Like, I don't think we should be doing that.

Um, too many creatures down there.

Too many. I mean, I have definitely— I've been on— yeah, no. Um, but they wouldn't let us run the ads, and since they are a government organization, they legally have to deploy their policies fairly. And we brought a case against them saying that they were not doing that and eventually won the right to run advertisements on the subway in the middle of the pandemic. But it was still a win. Wow. Ish.

So you like hired a law firm, brought a case.

I hired a law firm. I lost some investors that were interested because they were like, Who, you're gonna take our money and start a lawsuit? And, but yeah, I remember just realizing how aligned it was with what we were trying to do at Dame and how those were the fights we needed to take on in order to break into mainstream more and more. And I think we need to continue to show people that we can have these conversations around these products in ways that are— I mean, literally take any erectile dysfunction medication ad that you've seen and it could just be about a vibrator. There's like no reason why it's inherently inappropriate. They serve a really similar function. Why should—

can you just take like a bunch of ED ads and just put like an X through it and put like 4 women and just put like a vibrator, but keep the ad exactly the same?

I've always wanted to do like, toys not for sex. This is definitely a stress-relieving toy. Like, you know, toys for stress, not for sex. Um, because like Facebook's ad policy is that you can run ads for sexual health, but they can't be about pleasure unless they're for ED. Unless— but you can run ED meds and you can run premature ejaculation ads, which is wild to me because these aren't things that men need in order to live. These are things that they, they desire because they help them feel alive. And that's exactly the same thing for vibrators. People don't— vibrators aren't— neither of these things are like— you're not dying. This is helping you live a more fulfilling life. Yeah, same, same.

Uh, we're coming up on time here, but I have a final question for you. What is the end goal with Dame? Like, you've been at this for a decade now. Like, what does success look like in your mind as it relates to this business?

Um, I think there's lots of possibilities. We did acquire another brand, and I think there's so many exciting things.

Emoji Baiter.

Emoji Baiter. I do my homework. Eggplant-shaped vibrator. We got you. Though I really—

DJ turned Emoji Baiter founder.

Yeah, Joe.

Joe. Joe Vela.

He's great. Um, But, you know, I'm really excited about where that can go. I'm excited to continue to innovate and expand on how Dame shows up in the sexual health space. So we started selling STI kits, um, so I'm really excited about that. And I don't know, when I imagine an acquisition or something, like, I would love to realize the value of the worth of the business to some extent. I'd love still continue to be a part of it. Um, but like, another thing I wish I had done but I never wanted to do when I was raising capital was do secondary. Do secondary. I don't know if you're like— whoever's listening, do a sec— do secondary. You deserve it. It will help you be a better founder because then not your 100% of your net worth won't be tied up in this one asset that then feels like the whole weight of the world on you, you'll be a better founder. But I always thought it would sound like I was selling out and not staying in or something, and that's so not true. And I wish I knew that then, but I would love— I would definitely interested in realizing some of the value of the business.

Love that. We— I'd be remiss to say I'm excited that we partnered with you guys.

That's— yeah, I'm excited too.

Tell us briefly more about the experience and what you liked about it.

It's not live yet.

We're not live yet.

Oh, I don't know, maybe by the time this episode— probably by the time this episode is live, it will be, I think.

Well then, right now we're manifesting. Everything is going so well. Our conversion rate has— let's go with triple.

Oh, I love that. I love that she's manifesting metrics, assuming that when this episode is live, the new site will be live.

And then I'll like stare at you if it's like not true. I can't wait. I can't wait.

I'm gonna literally message our team right when we get when we end this podcast and be like, you guys need to listen to this now, even though it's not going live for a couple weeks.

I think what you guys are doing makes a lot of sense, and I'm excited to see if it works for us. And like, the idea of— I mean, it's a collective, right? Like, you're developing for a group, so, that have similar needs. Um, so I'm excited.

Oh yeah. Last question on my end is You talked about specific moments. You talked about winning the case, right? Or that first crowdfunding campaign.

Yes.

What was a recent moment like in the past 6 months or in the past year where you went, whoa, this is incredible. This was a big one.

I have one that I can't share right now.

Okay.

Um, getting into Target was huge. That was a little bit over a year ago, um, and that was so exciting. That was like unbelievable to see my products in the Target, you know, landscape has been— it's unreal.

What did that feel like that day?

Um, it probably felt chaotic and like I didn't sit with it enough, and I'm sitting with it right now and it just feels like this was a goal. Like, you know, this was like one of the things I wrote down when I started the business of where I wanted Dame to show up and how I would know that I was fulfilling my purpose, or Dame's, you know, Dame's mission to help people re-approach this category. Um, and it feels tingly inside. It feels really nice.

It's a fair response. It was awesome having you on. Can you talk to that camera on the left? And tell them where they can— no smizing at the camera. Can you tell them?

She could do whatever. She's so cool.

I'm just smiling. I think it's smizing. I think you're supposed to stop smiling.

Before you say anything, this was fucking awesome.

This was great. And you dropped some great quotes.

So I do really appreciate you making time to come on today. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Thank you.

Seriously.

But now you can look and tell everyone where they can find you and what you're working on and where to sell secondaries.

You can find, uh, you can find Dame at dame.com. That's where all of our products are.

Flex URL.

Yeah, we, we— I love it. I'm happy we paid extra for it.

It's great.

Um, sometimes I don't like it. Anyway, dame.com. I'm a fine human on the Instagram, and my podcast is Horny for Life.

Plug the pod. Yeah, that's a wrap.

Put that in the description. That was great.

Thank you.

That was awesome.