#047: The $1 Billion Community: Inside Jay Wright’s Ecom Revolution

You can insert any product into that system, you know, looking at your numbers, having solid product-to-market fit, and you'll find the path, right? Some people will take 2 weeks, some people will take 2 years, but I think everyone can find that if they continually follow that process. And I think you, you have to create your vision so big that other people can fit their vision within it. When I start to kind of like come up with all these ideas and start really thinking about like, maybe I'll do something new, it's actually a trigger to me to go, what the hell am I trying— what am I avoiding in my business? Because there's usually a bottleneck there that you're like, I know I need to go and talk.

This is Founder Therapy 101 right here. This is That might be, that might be one of the most insightful things that we've ever had said on this podcast. Truly. Jay Wright, founder of eCommerce Equation, is a serial entrepreneur who has carved out a unique niche in the eCommerce world. With a background in finance and a talent for scaling businesses, Jay's journey began with co-founding Search Insights, Australia's leading eCommerce digital marketing agency. Today, he focuses on empowering eCommerce founders by helping them build in-house capabilities, navigating the complex landscape of online retail with with an emphasis on sustainable growth. In this episode, Jay shares insights from his entrepreneurial journey, from the highs of launching products that rapidly scaled to 7 figures to the challenges of transitioning from agency life to hands-on brand building. He discusses the critical importance of product-market fit, the evolving nature of digital marketing, and how his coaching program is reshaping the way e-commerce brands approach growth. Welcome back to the Turning Pro Podcast, Season 2, Episode 10. Today we have Jay Wright, who is the founder of Ecommerce Equation, joining us. Thanks for joining us today, Jay.

Thanks for having me. Stoked to be here.

He came across the world for this episode. That's what I'm telling people. He's in town from Australia. That's right. Which is absolutely epic.

Yeah, stoked to be here. Thanks for having me in your neighborhood.

Would love to maybe just start by you giving us a quick background on what you're up to, and then we can go from there.

Uh, yeah, so the, the short background is I had an early career in finance and timed it really poorly with the financial crisis. So graduated in '27 with a finance degree, which is not great timing. So did a short stint in 2012. I was sort of in London doing derivatives trading and it was still really hard. There was a double dip recession and it was kind of carnage and realized that finance wasn't really what I wanted to do. And I had a friend who was in SEO at the time reach out and he knew I kind of had some cash from finance and knew how to sell because essentially stockbroking and trading, you're kind of a glorified salesperson. Um, so kind of jumped in headfirst to marketing back in 2012 and started an agency with him. Uh, shortly after, I kind of bought him out when it was obvious our goals weren't completely aligned with what we wanted to do. He wanted a lifestyle business, I wanted to kind of make something. And, um, scaled that, sold it in 2017. Um, predominantly work with e-commerce clients, just serendipitously, like the first client I had was a big shoe company in Australia called Hype DC. And so we just attracted a lot of other e-commerce clients and just became known in e-commerce for doing SEO. And so in 2017, after I sold the agency, I jumped in and started a couple of my own brands. I took a profit share in a kids' book, A to Jay-Z. Then when Jay-Z sued us for using his name, we— I did another kids' book brand called Alphabet Legends. And then I did a novelty gifting product, Dad Cooler, and then also started a tapware brand called Yabby. So did sort of 4 brands in 5 years and had a real different experience from going from agency side to actually founder side and understanding what the founder journey was like, why they had such hesitation to scaling with paid media, and really kind of understood the full spectrum of not just demand generation, but the supply chain and how an e-commerce business works. And through that process, then I started consulting businesses. So that's sort of the genesis of eCommerce Equation, which I'm doing now. And that started in about 2019, 2020.

Can you walk us through the model of eCommerce Equation?

Yeah, so the big difference with eCommerce Equation is we're not an agency. We call it a group coaching mastermind, but essentially there's an element of coaching. So rather than doing a done-for-you service, essentially what we do is we look out across our member base, we see what's working, and my role and our business's role increasingly is about synthesizing what's working, creating material that people can implement into their business. So checklists, white files, templates, tools, resources, and then coach them to actually build in-house capabilities. And I think there's a really big demand for that right now. I think in COVID there was a huge e-commerce boom, obviously, and then that was followed by a huge agency boom where there was just a glut of service providers. and it was kind of easy in 2020, 2021 for people to get results. But with iOS 14, I think the tide really went out, and a lot of these agencies with their, you know, kind of cheap resourcing were really exposed for what they are. And I think it's just scorched earth right now where a lot of people have just been so burnt by agencies, particularly media buying agencies, that they're just, they're just keen to have that capability in-house. And that's really what we enable. So we're really trying to build, uh, in-house capability, reduce dependencies on third parties for e-commerce founders. And I think that's been incredibly well received by the market. So that's really the differentiator that we're doing now versus the agency back in the day.

So if you were to start a brand tomorrow, based on your experience on being both sides of it, for people listening, what would you say are the 3 most important things?

If I was to start a brand— so I think the number one thing would be trying to figure out product to market fit and iterate quickly. So if I was starting, the number one thing I'd be looking at is revenue per visit. So how much cash am I extracting from a visit, assuming that visit was from a quality source like a, you know, sales objective Facebook campaign? Uh, basically you should be extracting at least $2 per visit. And so the very first thing I'll be doing is making sure I'm bringing a product into the world people want, because that is like— no marketing can compensate for people just not wanting your product, right? So I think the number one thing is just actually doing something that's unique or differentiated or that people actually want. Um, the second thing I'll be doing is getting really clear on my numbers. So I'm a huge fan of the theory of constraints, and that's what we teach. So essentially, you know, we benchmark to thousands of brands. So understanding like what is the bottleneck is so pivotal because you can spend years working on the wrong problem, right? You can think you've got an ad problem and ads can't work, but then you know, it's really just a conversion problem, or you've got supply chain problems. Um, and so really I'd be benchmarking myself to understand what the constraint was, and I'd be trying to find that path to scale by continually working through those bottlenecks. So I think for me, you can insert any product into that system of, um, you know, looking at your numbers, having solid product-to-market fit, and just iterating through the issues and the problems using data, and you'll find the path, right? Some people will take 2 weeks, some people take 2 years, but I think everyone can find that if they continually follow that process.

I want to talk about agencies specifically because I feel like a lot of the agencies that you look up to or I look up to, a lot of the time they have lasting power, and that's almost part of the differentiator there, and that they don't just pop up for 2 years when media buying is sexy or easy to do, but they've been here. I mean, I have so much respect for agencies that have been around for like 10, 15 years, cuz as you know it's such a slog and it's such a grind. It's rewarding, but it's really difficult.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, what agencies do you look up to? It could be across industries too, not just necessarily e-com that have that lasting power and have been around for a while.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there's some incredible agencies out there. Some, some of the best talent in this, in, in the world is in agencies. And I think that the agency business model can work for certain brands. I think fundamentally the issue is that there are so many agencies. Like, there's 10,000 agencies in Australia and there's 130,000 Shopify stores. So there's almost like one agency for every 10 brands. And that's just agencies, not freelancers, not offshore agencies servicing Australia. And you gotta multiply those numbers by 20 to get the US stats. So I think that there are amazing agencies in there. There's just so many that they can't all be good. Right? And I think the good ones, the differentiating factor is that often they go upstream and they start to service the better clients. So when you have that lasting factor, what, what often happens is you find people that are successful and they do have a, a business that has unit economics that can afford to pay for better talent and better— a better agency. So what you see is that there's this just like vacuum where the best talent go to the best agencies and they service the best brands But how do you get to be a best brand when you don't have access to those agencies? So I think really what it is is the business model of an agency needs to, you know, it's a product at the end of the day and the product is hours. You're selling hours. So just like an e-commerce business is trying to procure their products for as cheap as they humanly can, like an agency is doing the same. They're trying to get talent for the least they can get away with, right? And they're trying to sell those hours for the most they can. That's the, that's the product. So the agencies that succeed find a higher-end customer, I think. And just like a luxury brand, they're charging almost a luxury premium so they have enough margin to be able to afford to retain better talent. And I think that's really what I see. And I have a huge amount of respect for those top agencies. I think they do an incredible job and I envy some of their clients, right? But there's a massive amount of the, of the e-commerce world that can't access them or wouldn't be taken on by a lot of the best agencies. And they're left to kind of pick through the rest to try to find something good or do it themselves.

What are your thoughts about the ethics of lots of agencies? I think we've talked about this, but to me, a big reason why Platter exists is because I think there's a lot of unethical agencies whereby they're trying to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money. They don't actually have the best interests of their client at heart, even though they might say that. And so I think in some instances the concept of agency gets a bad rap because you have some people out there that are doing bad work, but that's not necessarily all of them. Um, but I think to me, I really appreciate what you're doing where you're trying to empower people to be able to live without them, because in some way, like, an agency can also be a crutch if you can't ever grow past it, right?

Yeah, 100%. Look, I think like, like any business, the ethics are just— there's a wide range, right? There's some incredible people out there, but one of the reasons I sold my agency in 2017 was because every day I was faced with the choice of do I want to make money or do I want to service this client to the degree that it's going to take to get them success? And that's a contradiction, right? Because they have a mandated retainer, there's a certain amount of hours, you've got your profit baked in, but sometimes it's just not enough, right? So it was a pretty hard place to be for me as an agency owner. And what, what broke was me, because I would put myself into those situations to try and help and to try and get the result while also trying to put food on the table, essentially. So it's a very stressful place to be, and I can see for some people that don't have a really, uh, a mission outside of making money, um, that they would sort of compromise on the morals and just do whatever it took to get the dollar, make promises, hold people in contracts. And we all know what those experiences are like for people. Um, so yeah, but there's a wide spectrum. I think some people do amazing work and have a mission outside of just making cash. They really sincerely want to help brands, um, but it's a pretty big spectrum, I think, as everyone can relate who's used an agency.

How do you vet that genuine care for whatever customer you're serving, right? If we're— say, you know, we work with B2B companies. Yeah, it's like, how can you— like, if someone's meeting me, how can they tell that I genuinely care about, like, the founders or the head of contents we're serving? Or for a brand maybe talking to an agency, like a retention agency, how can they tell that that agency really cares about this ICP, isn't just in it for the money?

Like, the things that— the questions I would be asking are, like, any service provider should be keeping records of client, member, customer satisfaction, right? Like, if you're not, they probably don't care. Like, if they're not measuring it, they probably don't care. If they are measuring it, they should have those statistics available. So across hundreds of our members, we survey NPS, Net Promoter Score, which I think is probably one of the best metrics. Essentially, you ask the member, the client, how likely are you to recommend this service provider to a friend or family member? And they rank it 1 to 10. So 9 or 10 would be that they are a promoter. I think 7 and 8 is neutral. Less than 7 is they're a demoter or a detractor. And you get an average score. So we're at 90 for ecommerce equation, which means that across hundreds of brands, the average person would 9 out of 10 recommend us to a friend or family member. And I think if you can get that level of stats— that the challenge with agencies is that often you see the outlier. If you've got a scaled agency and you've got hundreds of clients, there's always going to be a couple people that win in spite of the agency's work, maybe despite the agency's work, because they just had a great product or they were savage. So you really need to understand the average experience of a client. Not the outlier, because if you don't have a unicorn product, if you don't have like the next hit, you're probably average. Like the odds are you're average, you're not the outlier. So you need to understand the average experience. And I think average client satisfaction metrics are probably the best way to understand that, as well as talking to existing clients.

That's such an interesting point because I'm just thinking about like every vendor, they show case studies of like outliers.

Of course.

Like what, what like company is going to put a case study on their website, be like, oh, this person hated me and we completely fucked their business. But like you need to know about them because they're on the other side of like what we've worked with.

100%.

So I guess my next question is like, what are your thoughts on the concept of case studies as a marketing function?

Case studies work because there's an element of social proof, right? So I think essentially what you're doing is you're peacocking, saying we've got this Lighthouse client and through, through social proof, these guys chose to work with us. So, so other people should. So I think it's good to attract people, and I understand why people do use case studies. But I think that if, if I was a brand, I would really try and go beyond the surface level case study. So I think like just the sheer volume of case studies is important as well, but also just trying to understand like what is the average experience, because you're probably average, right? And so you're probably going to get the average experience. And, um, and so yeah, I think case studies are prolific. I have a little bit an issue with them because I do think that they're, they're not always representative of the average experience. The other thing that I see that's prolific in agency marketing is like logo embellishment. So, you know, I've worked with some brands since 2019, right? I've had brands that I've consulted every week, twice a week for 5 years, and I've been at their office for every Black Friday launch every big event, and I intimately know that brand. Like, and they've gone from $2 million to like $100 million in 5 years. And I'll see their logo on an agency's website, and I'll go and ask the founder, like, have these guys worked with you? And they'll say, yeah, I think I did an email design for like $100, like 3 years ago. But their logo is like smack bang on their website, Pride Place. And the presupposition with that is that they've been instrumental in that growth, but essentially they're just trying to latch on to the coattails of that brand and signal that they are relevant. So I think there's a lot of like these presuppositions and positionings that aren't 100% truthful. And really, I think brands just really need to like talk to existing clients and understand what's going on beyond just the surface level marketing.

That's on the SaaS side too. I actually saw our logo— I think I mentioned something to him about it. I saw our logo on someone's website It's like I had a 15-minute conversation with them. I didn't even use this.

That's crazy. That's crazy.

Like a community thing.

And I was like, no, it's a software tool. And I'm, I'm gonna leave it at just that cuz I'm not trying to, you know, get myself in hot water here. But like, it was more so it's not worth— when you're in the earliest stages, I'm like, all right, whatever. Like my logo's there, not a big deal. And I didn't care enough to go say something, but I'm also like, what is your benchmark for just slapping logos on here? Because there is probably someone who's gonna get extremely pissed off by seeing this here.

Yeah, or like you're sort of complicit, right? If someone goes, wow, Platters using them, they must be good. Yeah. And so it's an implicit recommendation if you're on there. So yeah, I think there's an increasing awareness of these things from the market. And I think people are starting to ask deeper questions like, I want to talk to members, I want to see average performance metrics. And I think that's great. So I think the education is starting to come through a little bit in the market and people are seeing a little bit beyond these marketing tactics because often they have been lured in and burnt. And so I think people are a little bit more eyes wide open now.

I want to talk a little bit— this is a little bit off the beaten path, but I want to tap into your curiosity a little bit. I feel like you went from agency to like children's book brand to like homeware brand to like coaching business with brands.

Yeah.

What like drives your curiosity?

Uh, I think I just like building stuff. And it's been really hard. Like when I did the agency, I started the agency and then I invested in like a competitor to Alibaba and I started like a granny flat marketplace, which is like a second suite business. And then I had a friend at Google, so we started this like tracking app called the Shadow App and I did like 6 things and it really— none of them worked apart from the agency and I was so distracted. So I think like a lot of people that have the entrepreneurial itch love that genesis stage, like starting stuff, and it's so exciting and alluring. And I'm the same. Like, I have, I have a Slack channel to myself, which is just ideas, you know?

And, um, and he probably has auto reply on the Slack channel when he has an idea.

It says, stay focused.

Yes, stay focused. Don't do it.

Your family's like, who are you being?

Yeah. So now I think like focus is key. So like if I'd have just invested all that energy and funneled it into the agency, the agency would have been 10 times as big when I sold it. And I think like over the last 5 years, that discipline to focus in and try to find like opportunities internally to be entrepreneurial has been pivotal. So, you know, I'm here in the US and we're, we're building our US community now after, you know, really making great inroads in Australia. But that to me is like an entrepreneurial challenge, right? So I'm here and it's a different market. There's different ways of accessing people. There's different challenges, there's like different ways of scaling brands. Like there's Amazon, which isn't as prolific in Australia. So for me, I just get to express that entrepreneurial itch internally to build the main thing. But yeah, I think if you are kind of blessed or cursed with that entrepreneurial itch, I think you can get really— you see opportunity everywhere, you know, you see problems to solve.

It's a disease.

It's a disease. But I think it's, it's good because the world needs problem solved, right? And I think if you're the rare type that can see that and have the audacity to think you can fix these problems, like, you should be celebrating. You should go and do these things. But at a certain point, when you find a product-to-market fit, you find something that solves a real-world problem, at a certain point you need to focus in on that. Otherwise you're doing a disservice to that idea. And I think part of turning pro, part of like me maturing over the last 15 years in business, has been the ability to kind of say no and focus and find ways to satisfy that entrepreneurial itch internally with the main thing, which is eCommerce Equation for me.

Is your default response any time new opportunities come your way? And I'm sure over time the opportunities are getting better and better and more exciting with like really experienced partners.

Yeah.

Is the default always no, or is it I'll take a call and see what happens?

I'll always take a call. Like I'll always take a call. And because I think it's also how you stay across what's happening in the marketplace. Especially this current era, there's a lot of change. So I think I'll always take a call, but I haven't started anything for a very— like, for 5 years, right? So, um, and I haven't actually invested in anything. And, um, I took out like a bunch of secondary at the start of this year. So I've got like— the amount of people that have reached out to me for investment and that sort of thing is like 100x. Like, it's crazy. Um, so it's sort of in the media a little bit in January.

Do they all know that you took secondaries?

I think so, yeah. So like, you know, someone like you said Yeah, someone get them. Yeah, it was kind of in the media a little bit and stuff now, like Financial Review. So, um, so that's also hard because, you know, if you invest in something, you also want to sort of support it. And if I was to invest in something, I think I would invest in things that I could influence the outcome. Like, we have massive distribution in Australia, um, and, you know, I've got a fair degree of skills in, in scaling businesses. So that's also challenging. It's not even starting stuff anymore. Like, that's the hard enough to put in a, in a, in a cage and sort of suppress. But then you've also got all these other opportunities that other people have created, these awesome ideas that you can see how you would really influence. So it is, it's like it's, it's really, I think having to say, having to say no is one of the hardest things.

I want to push on this a little bit because Gary Vee is someone who I've seen talk about this a lot. He's like very much in the other camp of like saying yes to everything. Yeah, he's like, so anyone who told you that you can only work on one idea all the time is, you know, full of shit. Like, you should be able to do a lot of things. And so I'm curious also what your perspective is. I think my opinion on it is in some sense, like, I respect and admire Gary's perspective on this, but I think it's also a lot easier to, to say something like that to the world when you have an infrastructure and an operation that he has where like he can literally wake up with an idea that he had in his dream and have 5 people like building it full time by snapping his fingers and like he's not resource constrained in doing so. So versus like a first-time founder or maybe a second-time founder who had like an okay outcome but isn't like, you know, rolling in it where they can't just like throw money at everything. I feel like there's levels to it, but I do believe as you go upmarket, if you will, in your career, I think you could probably say yes to things at the— but knowing that it's more so like you come up with the idea and you put people in place to actually execute those ideas. So I'm curious if you think that actually holds any validity or you're still like, you got to be all in on one thing.

I think the calculation that I do in my head is the opportunity and the opportunity cost. So like, like you said, for, for Gary, there's probably no opportunity cost. You know, there's probably no, you know, if he hires 3 people, it doesn't work out. It's probably no opportunity cost. So for me, I just always do the mental calculation of like, all right, well, for this brand, for this idea to be meaningful like, what would it have to— what would I have to do, you know? And, and often where I get to is if I just grew my main thing by 5%, the EBIT on that would be more than my expectation of this idea after 5 years. And I think doing that actual calculation of, right, here's my main thing, I've got this going— it's so much easier to take something that's already going and increase it by 30, 50%, double it than it is to get something from a standing start. And I think what a lot of founders forget is that they actually create lightning in a bottle. Like, if you get product to market fit and you get to scale a million, 2 million, 10 million turnover, like, that's incredibly hard and incredibly rare. And I think people take for granted that they've actually done something that's kind of hard and unique, and they think that everything is going to pan out that way. So for me, it's like, at the scale that we're at, where it's every opportunity I just kind of boil back to if I was able to, you know, say replicate what we did in Australia and the US, what would that look like? And then you're kind of talking about 9-figure outcomes there. So any other, any other opportunity kind of pales in comparison. So I think it is an opportunity cost, and I think Gary's not wrong. It's just he doesn't have an opportunity cost because he's so far down the road. Like, there's no cost to him to take on these ideas.

I, I think actually you just like provoked a thought in my head that makes way more sense to me, is there's an inverse relationship in that The most exciting part of a business for entrepreneurs is the idea stage.

Totally.

But the— it's a lot easier to go from like $1 million to $5 million than $0 to $1 million. But it's like, why? Why as entrepreneurs are we obsessed with like the idea phase when it's actually easier, to your point, of like pouring fuel on something that already works? Yet like everyone is always gravitated to the, the hardest part of the journey, which is like getting it off the ground.

I think it's romanticized, you know, and I think it's a grind. Like when you're going from zero to five team, that's fun, you know. Everything's, everything's new, everything's fresh. When you're grinding and you're actually like kind of scaling departments and you're putting in place processes and systems and building out, you know, your software stack, and that stuff's like just not as fun. And it's, it's sort of the difference between— I don't know, I think for most of us that are entrepreneurial spirited, like, it's, it's fun and exciting and new and everything's greenfield and we, we thrive on that. And when you get to the actual, like, infrastructure piece, everything feels a little bit slower, it feels a little bit less exciting. And so I think— I also think we start to come across harder problems. And I think when you hit a hard problem, it's almost easier to kind of distract yourself with something new and green over here versus punching through the wall that you actually need to punch through. And I, I actually now know when I start to kind of like come up with all these ideas and start really thinking about like, maybe I'll do something new, it's actually a trigger to me to go, what the hell am I trying? What am I avoiding in my business? Because there's usually a bottleneck there that you're like, I know I need to go and talk.

This is Founder Therapy 101 right here. This is— that might be one of the most insightful things that we've ever had said on this podcast.

Truly.

So think about like, think about like personal therapy versus business therapy of like what is the thing I'm running away from?

Totally.

And it's like when I'm getting excited about a new idea, what is the problem I'm trying to solve in my business? That's crazy.

Yeah. And I think like I've got a real awareness of that now, and I think one of the things I've become really mindful of is it's a cue for me. I'll be like, what am I— what, like, why am I romanticizing leaving or distracting myself from the current thing? And usually there's a big problem there that's painful, and that's usually where you need to be.

I need to do some journaling after this.

Yeah, that is—

wow, man. I have a question on—

I'm in shock. I'm like, damn, Adrian and I are gonna be like sitting here talking to each other for an hour as we're both not working on our own business.

Yeah, agency-specific question. I feel like as— I mean, you also started an agency and then launched Platter. I feel like in the early days, I actually did pretty well about like saying no to other stuff because like this was only just starting to work and I was really just trying to focus on it. And then I didn't expect this, but as things got better and we signed more clients and we became well-known and like the team got bigger, the opportunities just got better and better and better. And I've gotten worse at saying no over time. Like it used to be a hard no to everything because I didn't have anything. And I was like, I just need to make something work. And now it's like, oh, that could be interesting. That may be an interesting idea. Even if, let's say, in real life I'm actually addressing all the problems in my business. I'm not, definitely avoiding some. But even in that case, I feel like, you know, the potential partners get more experienced and get more exciting to work with. Like sometimes with a new project, it's not just the idea. It's like, I just wanna work with this, like with you. It's like, let's just go build something together. I didn't think it would become this. And I feel like over time it's not just like the financial outcome of something. It's like, I just wanna go build something with this person.

Yeah.

Does that ever get tempting to you?

It does, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't. Like, I think I do— that the hard part is the investment piece, like, because that really excites me, like, to, to have upside while someone else is operating it. Like, that's really exciting to me. Um, I think what I've found is that through eCommerce Equation, as we've scaled, the caliber of people that I get to work with in the business is extremely exciting. Like, we've just hired a bit of a C-suite, so I've got a CFO, Chief of Staff, Chief Product Officer, and, um, and I actually didn't know that level of talent existed. So, you know, often when I would hire someone, I would hope that they would be better than me at their respective discipline, but now I'm hiring people where they're better than me at everything, you know. And it's just like, and when you see them operate at that level, it just actually changes your whole perspective of what talent is. And I think often what I get attracted to in, in, in investments or other businesses is what I'm like. I'm like, oh wow, you've got this great idea and you've got the same kind of energy. And as, as you know, as our business has grown and, um, like the people that are in the business now, they have a different energy, they have a different set of skills, and it's almost the skills that I want but don't possess. Like, it's real business building stuff. So for me, like, again, I just find an opportunity to express that desire within my main thing, which is now— now I get like my CFO, my chief of staff, I'm like just in awe of their business acumen. Like, they're 20, 30-year veterans of business and retail and, and finance. And, and so I think that it's a complementary skill set to mine, but I still get to express that, um, excitement to work with new people but internally. So I don't think it's that different than the idea phase either.

Okay, but here's the obvious question: why don't you have a fund inside of eCommerce Equation that is investing in these brands where you are the first person to actually see the trajectory that on.

Yeah, like 100%. Like, the seat I sit in, I get to see, you know, I, I can, I can tell when people— every week on a Wednesday we have a kickoff call and we'll welcome 10, 20, 30 new brands to our community every single week. And I get to look at their metrics and I can see, I can see the founder and I can see them, their product and their product-to-market fit, their metrics. And I, I reckon that I have a high degree of accuracy of knowing who's about to double, who's about to get to $1 million months. And it is very alluring to say, well, do I want to front run that growth? But I think a bit of that is selfishness to say I want to take some of their upside. I think that the e-commerce equation infrastructure that we've built really enables brands almost to the same degree as me personally being in that business as an investor. So I mean, it's a great idea, and it's 100% crossed my mind to say, well, we're going to create like the— an e-commerce fund. But I think a lot of the brands we scale, we scale profitably, like we empower them to scale profitably. Um, and even then, like, if you were to take a brand and, you know, scale it to 8 figures and they were to get, you know, like a 2 revenue multiple, and I was to have 10 or 20% of that brand, like that $1 or $2 million outcome um, isn't significant anymore, you know. So it still comes back to that equation, but it's 100% an idea that's crossed my mind. It crosses my mind daily, especially when I see brands and I'm like, you're gonna make it. I know you're gonna be a winner, you know.

All right, so here's, here's my next question then. So you've met, I mean, hundreds of founders at this point, like specifically on the brand side.

Yeah.

What would you say are the characteristics that separate the top 1% of those?

Yeah, great question. So we do live events in Australia and New Zealand And in March we went around Australia to all the capital cities. And in Sydney we had an event. And my favorite thing is to just hot seat people that are crushing it. And we had a panel and one of the founders on the panel, Sam, asked a question which was, how did you approach eCommerce Equation when you started? And what she said was very interesting. So she said she had a very significant brand, like it was stocked in Mecca and and she'd had 8 agencies over 2 years and had just completely plateaued. So she hadn't been able to break through a couple hundred grand a month. And, um, and she said she told her whole team, like, no one talked to me for 8 weeks. Like, this is the biggest problem in our business and I'm solving it, right? And so she— when she did our training and she went through the program, she was on every single coaching call. And we have like 2 to 3 coaching calls a day, and, and she was on every single one, like every day. Sam was there. Like, I never logged in and didn't see her, right? And she said she watched the training 15 times in that first month. So she really immersed herself. And I think that, like, volume and intensity is a characteristic that I think really defines brands, um, that are going to succeed. And after that hot seat, Sam had people coming up to her and saying, I never thought to, like, watch the videos again, you know, or I didn't, like, wow, I didn't, I didn't know I didn't even think that I should reinforce that learning. So I think volume and intensity is just such a characteristic of people that are gonna crush it. Like if I see people filling out their data daily, if I see them logging into the portal every day, consuming the training and really implementing it, and they're on every single coaching call, they're gonna make it. And the ones that sort of take a wait and see approach or they're not taking as much personal responsibility, like I'll see if this works out for me, I think they're the ones that may get success, but it's also probably less certain. So you can kind of tell there's people that rock up with that level of intensity and volume and discipline, and they're doing the stuff. Like, these are creative founders. Like, people bring a product into the world, they don't want to be marketing experts, but they know that, like, really there's two jobs: to bring a product into the world that people want and then to sell it. And so to abdicate responsibility for, like, half of the equation of an e-commerce business is madness, right? So the people that actually go, look, I don't— I like making products, I like creating stuff, but I know this is my responsibility to my brand and to my community as well. The people that show up and actually tackle that head-on, they're the ones that, you know, they're going to make it, you know. And I think, yeah, so volume, intensity, and kind of ownership.

I think there's a hell of an answer, man.

What's, uh, what, what brand are you most excited about right now?

There's so many brands, man. Like, yeah, we, we've just got I think that, like, I don't know what it's like here, but in Australia we're definitely— I think we're kind of at the bottom of the cycle. So we've had, um, you know, the 2021 craziness, and there was a little window there where a lot of people had just crazy outcomes, right? And I think that the, the market for e-commerce brands um, has been a little bit on the nose, and I think that's going to turn next year. Um, and I think that the people that are doing the hard work now and positioning themselves well are going to have some incredible outcomes in 1 to 2 years. So the brands that I, I really like are ones that have, um, you know, something unique about them, and they have like a repeat customer base. I'm— I kind of like fragrances right now. So this is like a new— the great thing about working with thousands of brands is is that you kind of see waves of genres coming through. So, you know, like there's always been a big kind of skin supplements, like fragrances I think is something new that we're seeing a fair bit of where previously it didn't sell well online, but I think people are disenfranchised with department store, you know, designer logo fragrances. And there's these new kind of startups that are taking a different approach and it's selling well online. Uh, but anything that kind of meets those characteristics, I'm kind of excited about. Um, but yeah, there's, there's tons, man. There's so many that come through that I think are just crazy ideas.

Jay, it's a diplomatic answer. I want one brand.

One brand.

Um, any US-based brand specifically?

Um, I think like, I don't know, like, do you think that US consumers like Australian brands? Like, do you think that they, they have Like in Australia, we look at European brands and we— they've got this like kind of appeal to them, like they're a little bit unique and sexy.

I think we have that too.

I don't know if with European brands, New Zealand, I would say European, but I don't know necessarily about Australia.

Yeah. Okay.

It's in the LSKD in Australia.

Yeah, they're in San Diego.

I like them a lot.

Yeah, right. So like, I think, um, I saw their logo on your site.

Was it not on there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been working with Jace for 5 years.

Yeah.

Um, uh, yeah, so, you know, like, I think there's a lot of brands in Australia that are tackling the US market, and for us, we're like, we're a really small nation, so it's exciting to kind of help people come to the US. Um, but, uh, yeah, I don't know, like, I get excited about a lot of brands. I don't, I don't like have favorites. I'm all thinking about like my net promoter score, the average experience. Like really what keeps me awake at night is the shape of our bell curve of performance. It's not the one or two outliers that I'm like, wow, like they crushed it. It's more like what's the average experience of people inside of eCommerce Equation? And like this, like last month in June, we helped 4 brands get to their first million dollar month. I think we helped close to 20 hit their first 6-figure month. So for me, that's like, that's more what drives me is like our impact goal and impact targets. And, um, And like, when I say that, like, it sounds cool, but like, when you know the actual founder behind that brand and when you know like their family and what that means for them and what their goals are, and you know that you've changed kind of the trajectory of their business and their life and their family and their community and their customers, like, I think that's really what excites me. And just kind of creating the tool to do that at scale is sort of far more exciting than like one brand crushing it, um, which used to be kind of really fun, but now it's more like this whole system that creates like dozens of success cases every kind of month.

Yeah, I want to talk a bit about the low points because right now we're talking about all the wins, all the acquisitions, everything that has gone well.

Yeah.

And this could be when you were building your first agency, this could be during the acquisition process of the last agency, this could be things that you're working on right now. Could be on the investing side of things. But were there any stretches of time— and I'm sure there were— when maybe you weren't down bad, but you were like, I don't know if this is going to work, and I'm not really sure what to do?

100%, man. Yeah. So like, after I sold the agency, it was 2017. So, um, uh, made low 7 figures. I was 29, uh, had 2 kids. So Um, well, how old were you when you had your first kid? 20— 20— 28, 29. Wow. And two kids really quick together. Don't recommend. Like that—

you gave me anxiety when you said that.

Um, so, um, so I was in Bali, and that's sort of when I started the consulting thing in sort of 2018, 2019.

Wait, so you were at Bali with two kids?

Yeah.

That is so cool.

Ecom consulting.

Wow. Yeah, you're a legend. You're a legend just for that statement.

But, um, in 2020, like, COVID hit, and I was doing well, but I wasn't really pushing. It was more of a lifestyle phase of like, I've got young kids, let's just go enjoy life a little bit. Like, I really, really, um, I kind of burnt myself out with the agency. So I sacrificed sort of 6 years of my life, 16-hour days. It was not healthy, um, but it was formative, you know. So I don't, I don't begrudge it, but it was, it was a phase that I really was happy to leave. But when COVID hit, I had a book of clients and, and that I was consulting as well as my own brands. And COVID hit, and in March 2020, um, we flew back to Australia. The Australian government said if you don't come home now, you're not going to be able to come home. And so we flew home, and in Australia you had to do quarantine. So we were in quarantine for 2 weeks, and I lost nearly all my clients, and I think I had 3 clients left. And I remember talking to my wife saying like, I don't— like, we've got this like nest egg, but like, I don't know if this is going to work. And I remember doing the maths and thinking like, how much money do we need to afford to like live without burning capital? And I really clearly remember like just those 2 weeks, I had like only 3 consulting calls a week, no like everyone left, and it was just, it was pretty brutal, you know. And at that point, I thought it was, I was like kind of like thinking about jobs and like what I would need to do, or like how am I gonna actually make this work, because no one knew. Like everyone thought the world had ended, right? And so it's kind of crazy because fast forward 2 months, like I had a completely full book because e-commerce just boomed. Um, but yeah, so I'm grateful for the people that stuck with me through that phase. But that COVID bit, like, it was a pretty interesting experience. Like, I think for anyone that lived through that February and March 2020, just like the degree of uncertainty there was just wild. So there's been heaps of moments, you know, where I think the other big one would be the transition from one-on-one to group. So I was just, you know, there was a, during COVID it just boomed, right? So I went from like no clients thinking I was gonna have to get a job packing shelves in Woolies to, to, you know, basically doing a million dollars as a consultant by myself. But that was— I would wake up, I'd have a call at 8, and I would be on Zoom calls every hour, no breaks, for like, for like 8 to 10 hours. And then at night I would have to do like invoicing and all the admin. And so in this, in the space of like 6 months, it went from like famine to feast. But that was also a very challenging period. It was almost like Golden Handcuffs, where I was so burnt out doing this one-on-one consulting that, um, I kind of wanted to give it up. And that's what led me to kind of this group model and starting to unpack the IP. But yeah, they're probably a couple of the low points, was, you know, one was pretty desperate, the other was sort of a victim of the success of the COVID e-commerce boom.

Can you speak a little bit to the impact of your relationship with your significant other, like watching you go like this Yeah, I mean, and like that, how that affected your journey, because like it's— I think it's easy for maybe someone on the outside looking in to be like, oh, you know, has 3 kids now, has money to be able to do things. But it's like, no, no, you weren't there with us in COVID and we're like sitting in the house and I'm trying to figure out like, what am I gonna do here?

Yeah, like Marnie's always backed me, you know, and she's always sort of just let me— she's always just trusted that it would work out. Don't know why exactly, um, and she's just superhuman. Like, the, the, anyone that's got 3 kids, um, like, my kids are 7, 5, and 1, um, and for me to like be here with them and be able to be on this podcast, like, there's a lot that goes on in the background, um, that no one sees. So really, she's the silent hero of everything I've ever done. But we met before I had anything, you know, we met when I was just getting going at the agency. And so she's kind of been with me through the whole thing, and I think she's just implicitly trusted that I'd make it work out. And I think like a huge part of motivation changes when you have a family. Like, it goes from this sort of self— selfish expression and a little bit of ego to really wanting to provide. And I think that's an incredible motivator. Like, one of the Probably one of the best things I ever did. I haven't told many people this was, um, uh, when we got back to Australia during COVID and before I'd really scaled, um, Ecommerce Equation into what it is, I bought a block of land with the cash from the agency essentially. And houses are really expensive in Australia, so I committed to building like my dream home. And I got a builder and I signed the contract to build like my family the home I really thought that they deserved. But I didn't get a loan for it. And it takes 18 months to build a house in Australia, so every month the building invoice would come due, right? So what that did for me was it created this existential motivation where I had to make enough money to pay the builder. And we're talking multiple million dollar build, right? So it was kind of very motivational to, um, and I think honestly, if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have pushed through and built ecommerce equation as fast and as far as I did, because every month I kind of had that existential motivation of like, I have to make this happen. And once you get to a certain scale in business, I think you kind of get comfortable. But that really helped me kind of push, push through that and wanting to do that for my significant other, Marnie, and for my family. So it's been awesome. Like, I think a family, um, you know, I think, you know, before you have a family, you think it's going to be a significant detractor from your ability to succeed. But I think what it brings, like this motivation, this this desire to provide and, you know, some other responsibilities that are beyond yourself that you need to provide for help you kind of build bigger and further, if that makes sense. That's a different kind of motivation.

More tactically, do you have a specific time of day that is your time, you're focused, whether it's email, deep work, whatever it is?

Um, like, the schedule question is so interesting. Like, I don't really have a schedule I've stuck to over a long period of time. Like, There's phases where I'll wake up super early. There's phases where I'll work till midnight. Um, I think like kids go through different cycles of like sleep stages, and, and so you kind of just need to be very adaptable. So really, um, like when I'm at home, I'll typically, you know, have— even days differ, right? Some days I'll do school drop-offs, I'll get to work at 10. Um, some days I'll go to work really early to do early calls with the US time zones. So every day is kind of different, but usually, you know, I'll try to, you know, mornings or, or after school with the kids, and then I'll try to do some work, um, you know, like 6 to 8 hours during the day. And then generally when they go to bed, I'll kind of do another 2 to 4 hours. Sometimes it's like actual work, sometimes it's just like research or emails and that sort of stuff. But I don't really have like a rigid schedule. It's kind of hard to have a rigid schedule. You just need to be really adaptable, and each day kind of looks different. If that makes sense.

I feel like you have to be reactive to your kids. I'd be like, no, you're going to sleep now. This is when you're waking up because I have a call.

That's right.

Dad has early 2 block hours in the morning.

Yeah.

So check my schedule.

You should have known. Um, go ahead.

I don't care.

I wanted to talk a little bit about, because Adrian is in this situation as well, but your experience as a solo founder. So I have co-founders.

Yep.

And I feel like building, looking back now what we've accomplished, I feel like building a business as a solo founder is like 100 times harder than building it with co-founders.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Like, you, um, yeah, I would 100% agree. I think one of the things that I did pretty early on that I think really helped overcome being a single founder was that I had mechanisms that aligned some really good people's interests with the business almost to the extent that a co-founder would have. So for me, I had 3 key people in sales, product development, and member success that I gave a pretty significant profit share to. Um, so it was sort of pseudo-equity in a way, um, where they benefited on the upside of the business. And I think for me that really helped overcome that kind of like lack of ownership, um, or that peer-level kind of debate, discussion kind of intent and alignment that you get from a co-founder. So it is different. Like you don't really have anyone that, you know, you can go to. So I kind of created that with this almost early stage senior leadership team through profit share functions.

I love that. It's— that's exactly what we did.

Like, interesting.

About 10 months ago or so.

How'd you find it?

So it was funny. It's 3 women, VP Ops, VP Content, and a Chief Revenue Officer. And 2 of them were former clients. And so they actually knew the business really well.

That's great.

Another was a referral from another agency who we've been friends with for a while, an SEO agency. And I think the business was a lot less fun before they all came on and they all came on kind of one by one and it started to get more fun. But we just had our offsite in Mexico City last week and there are a few moments that they came in a little earlier and we were doing more of like an exec team offsite. And it really did feel like co-founders because similarly we do like a pretty sizable revenue share with everyone.

Yeah.

And so on one hand, there are the more tactical use cases like, hey, this thing is wrong. You have someone to vent to, you have someone to build together.

Yeah.

But I think the biggest thing is just like the camaraderie. So you just have someone to enjoy it with, not just like when things are going wrong, but it's just fun when things are working.

Yeah, you're in the trenches with someone else. It's not like, you know, Yeah, and I think you need that alignment, that ownership sort of stakes on the table. So it was a big move at the time. Like, it was, it was like, like, it was pretty sizable. Um, it was pretty sizable percentage. But I also think like having that accountability to someone else, like, obviously their percentage profit share is going to be smaller than yours, so you really want to make that meaningful for them. And I think you do get a certain threshold where you almost reach the limit of what you need and what's comfortable for you. So when you can have some externality, like, I really want that person to win, and I've kind of promised them that this profit share will turn into something, it will grow, I think that's also helpful to keep pushing. And I think, like, what I found through scaling Ecommerce Equation, whether it was— there was very clear moments where there was stuff that I know I needed to do, and there were like phases of intensity to actually execute on what it took, whether it was building course material or building out teams rapidly And I don't know if it was just me benefiting from that, like, I would have done it. So I think creating these externalities through, um, you know, committing to the building or committing to people in the business who were going to benefit from that upside, and I really wanted to make that meaningful for them, really helped me push when I could have easily been comfortable.

Have you seen the MJ documentary?

No, I didn't watch it.

Have you seen it?

No.

There's a great episode. I'll send you guys the clips after, but there's a great episode where he was talking about winning like his first championship and that he would in practice, he would like push the team so hard. And Michael Jordan famously is like a terrible person to practice with because he'd like make people cry, get in fights because he's pushing them every single day. But he had this great line once they first won and he was saying like, I wanted to win, but I wanted them to win too. Yes, I wanted them to win their first championship too. And that's why I was kind of like, dictator in practice and on the court. And again, that can— you can talk about winning, but you can also talk about wealth generation. Like, you may want to get rich, you want your team to get rich too. And I think that goes the entire way across any, like, vertical of success or vertical of happiness or wealth or wealth or anything like that.

Agree. Yeah. And I think you, you have to create your vision so big that other people can fit their vision within it. And I think it really makes you expand, like, what is, you know, what, what are you trying to achieve? And we have several people making a million dollars a year from our business. You know, when you think about how hard it is to make a million dollars, but we have multiple people doing that. Like, I think you have to create that shell, that space, and that obviously expands your thing. But at a certain point, it has to be from— I mean, it doesn't have to be. I think some people are just like driven to make the number go up, but at a certain point, it doesn't mean anything more. So creating those opportunities for other people I think is key.

Dude, I gotta write that quote down on my wall.

That was the second one of the—

you have to make your vision so big that other people can fit their vision within yours. I feel like that is the epitome of a leader. Yeah.

Just dropping bars.

Wow.

We have some journaling to do after this.

Yeah, we have a lot of reflecting to do, Jay. This is unreal. Um, I'd be remiss to not nerd out for a second, given how many e-commerce brands you deal with every day. What would you say are the biggest mistakes you see brands making on their e-commerce websites right now?

Biggest mistake on site. I think that, all right, so there's some big trends, right? Like there's AI, like Facebook, Zuck bought 150,000 NVIDIA N100 chips. He's got 350,000 on order for this year. Advantage+ shopping campaigns are becoming prolific. It's the fastest growing product that Meta's ever released. We spend about $300 million, $350 million a year on Meta collectively as a group. Half of that go through Advantage+ shopping campaigns. So what is happening is that media buying is becoming homogenized, right? The actual skill— you know, when I first started teaching media buying, there was like 50 ad sets, $3 per ad set. You know, you'd find a winning— it was just micromanagement. And now you can't even, you know, really choose audiences anymore. So What's happening is contextually media buying is becoming homogenized. So the differentiating factors are creative and what you do with the click. So I think what we're seeing is that, you know, if the cost per click is kind of becoming homogenized and the differentiating factor is creative, firstly brands are becoming creators, right? And I think that's one thing. But to your question, the other side of that click is what happens with it. So what's the revenue per visit from the click? And I think increasingly the brands that win that game, how do I extract more cash from every click, are the ones that are going to disproportionately win the auction and be able to scale. So what we're seeing is a lot more like chatter, a lot more sharing of incremental gains. So things like shipping insurance or, you know, order editing with upsells or post-purchase upsell or gamification of the cart or gift with purchase, prize with purchase. Like, I think all of these techniques and tactics that happen on page after the click increasingly will be the differentiating factor between brands that win and brands that kind of start losing out.

That was the exact answer I was looking for. It's just reassurance that we're on the right track.

Before we wrap, is there anything coming up in Q3, Q4 that you really want to highlight specifically within your business?

Um, like, obviously Q4 is the making quarter, right? So we start planning now. Like we've actually got sessions on Black Friday in the community now. We have a huge event in Australia. It's our nationwide event. Everyone comes to my hometown of Newcastle, which is kind of a small town, but we're going to get 600 e-commerce brands there. And we do like a 2-day summit on literally Black Friday planning. I think it's going to make brands that attend half a million to a billion dollars. Like last year was a quarter of a billion. From brands that attended that summit. Um, so for Q4, uh, like, that's, that's— it's, it's such a focus, but the planning really starts this quarter for us. So I'm really excited to kind of share that with the community. Um, and, and really, I think that the challenge that I have with Q4 is that I get brands reaching out to me in, um, you know, October and November, and it's so hard because it's like, oh, like, we've actually been working on this for 6 months, and we do— we are able to kind of get people success with some quick wins, but the biggest results come from people that are in our world now and can go on that whole journey, be part of the August intensive and kind of, we have a 7-figure sales strategy. And so actually building that into their business and all the systems that work with it. So for me, that's my main focus right now. We have the event next month. So I was talking with my head of curriculum last night for hours, just kind of going through some of the material that we're going to be covering. Because we've been doing this for a couple years, I'm really excited. We've got some brands coming in that did the training last year. We've actually completely unpacked, um, their— how they deploy those strategies. And it's really validating to actually see you teach something and then have it come to life. So I think those case studies are going to be epic, like actually showing like what their offers were, how much profit they made day by day, the, you know, the revenue curves through the sale. Um, so I'm really excited. So that's what I'm working on right now. It's just real deep Black Friday planning.

Epic. I think one of the things that I'm most impressed by, as you're saying that, you're getting lit up about what you're excited about. There's so many, I feel like especially in founders that have maybe exited their first business or their second or it's scaled up, especially folks that are in like info product or community-focused or curriculum-based companies, is you get to a certain point and like you don't have that excitement. Like we've interviewed some folks that are kind of like recently exited or multi-time exit. And they're still excited about it, but they don't know, like, the nitty-gritty. They weren't talking to the head of curriculum last night and, like, riffing for hours about how to make sure you get it right. How have you made sure that you, like, you maintain that excitement? Were there any points that you were like, am I still excited about this? Or have you just been doing this for so long, you're like, this is my world, I love this?

I just think it's the mission of eCommerce Equation. Like, when I left the agency, I made a conscious decision. I wouldn't say that we were bad vibes, but we didn't exist for the clients. We existed, I think, for the staff, like the team. I had ping pong tables and it was like a very hedonistic environment. And that, like, we didn't do bad, but I don't think we like necessarily existed to, to, to help people. And I think the whole mission of eCommerce Equation is to help founders, right? And, um, and so that's what motivates me. Like, we have a like member win Slack channel and every day people post like wins from the members in there. And so like our whole culture is just orientated around helping people win. And I think that like, so there's a book called, um, uh, there's what— I'll come back to it. There's a, there's a, there's a certain point where you need to kind of get outside of yourself, I think. And so when, when I started making more money than I could comprehend it felt weird and I didn't know if, if I should. And so one thing I've consciously done is to just have the good vibes mantra, and I constantly want to be putting good stuff into the universe and helping people. So really, that's what motivates me. And I think money is secondary. Money will come, but I always want to be thinking about creating value, helping people, and just adding good vibes to the universe. And I think it all comes back tenfold. So for me, that's what motivates me. I want to go and help people. I want to see them like, you guys know how hard business is. So if you get the opportunity every day to go and help people have a breakthrough, avoid the pain of a business that isn't working, like, that's really the intrinsic motivation that I have. And it's the culture that we have in the business. So like, member obsessed, good vibes only, like, they're kind of our mantras. So for me, that's what it— like, that's what I live for. It's not so much stacking subscriptions or anything like that. Like, what we talk about is how many people got to $1 million this month, how many people got to $100,000 this month, and what are we going to do to support them in the future. And I think everything else is secondary. So for me, it's just like, it's really important to be doing good in the world and, and doing no harm, if that makes sense. So, and I think that helps you conceptualize the good. So much good can happen to you because you're doing good for others, if that makes sense, and you're just taking a small portion of that back from the universe. Sorry if that's spiritual, but no, it makes sense.

It's— that's amazing. Um, I think that's a great place then. Honestly, that was— that was a very good last thought. I think maybe you can just look at the camera, let everyone know where they can find you, what you're working on. And also, I think you should highlight like who you're working with, because obviously a big part of you coming to the US right now was to expand what you're doing over in Australia. And I think there's probably a couple brand founders listening to this.

Yeah, so Instagram, J. Wright Official, is probably the best place. Where I post the most. Um, our website's ecommerceequation.com.au. And yeah, if you're a founder with a brand and you've already got a product in market and you're trying to scale it, um, maybe you've not had success with agencies or you just want to build your internal capabilities, that's the core thing that we help. And I'd love to chat, so always open for a conversation. Just DM me and I can tell you more.

Awesome. Thanks for coming on today. This was epic.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much, guys. I'm grateful Thank you for the opportunity.