#061: How Shlomit Malka Went from Model to CEO of Happ

They really have no clue how to do it from start to end. It's a very fragmented process of like some of them work with a contract, someone send it to them. They don't know how to protect themselves. They don't know how to price themselves. They lose money because they don't remember who need to pay at what time, what are the milestones and there. But if it's just the fame and it's just your face and it's just like this hype, but you don't feel like you're connected to a service. I feel like it's kind of, you know how you put like magnifying glass on an ant with the sun and it gets burned? You have to reflect that light back, otherwise you get burned. It's—

Shlomi Malka, co-founder and CEO of Hap, transitioned from a decade-long career in modeling to launching a platform designed to empower creative freelancers. After experiencing the limitations of the creative industry firsthand, Shlomit and her team built Hap to streamline the business side of freelancing, helping creatives manage contracts, payments, and project milestones while staying in their creative flow. In this episode of Turning Pro, Shlomit shares her personal and professional transformation, including how the COVID-19 pandemic and her move to New York sparked a journey of self-discovery and entrepreneurship. She reflects on the importance of following intuition, the role of spiritual practices and staying grounded, and how her passion for supporting creatives shaped Hap into the innovative platform it is today.

Welcome back to Season 3, Episode 4 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Shlomit Malka, who is the co-founder and CEO of Hap. Thanks for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

So I'm going to start by just giving a little bit of background about how we met, because it's actually one of my favorite stories. Yeah, I started boxing about a year ago. One of the first times I was there, I box at Gotham in the West Village, and I'm standing there boxing and I look over to the right and there's this girl who's just boxing with this trainer. And I was mesmerized, like, what? This makes me feel so bad about myself. I'm like watching. And it was the most insane thing I've ever seen. So I walk up to her after, I go, I have to ask you, how long have you been boxing for? Well, sure enough, she's like, about a decade. I was like, okay, this makes me feel like a little bit better.

A decade.

A decade.

A decade of boxing.

Yeah. I mean, not every week, but like on and off a decade.

So anyway, so we start talking. I very quickly hear in the voice, I'm like, all right, she's, she's one of me. We're very similar. You're Israeli, aren't you? Yes. I'm like, oh, where do you live? She's like, I live in SoHo. I'm not going to say obviously where, but we found out that we live next door to each other. So it was just like we started at boxing and then we lived next door and we've been really good friends ever since. And now it's been amazing to just like watch her journey of, of building and transitioning from, I would say, an old life to a new life in some ways. Um, but maybe we can just start by you giving a quick background on what you're currently working on.

So our company is called Hap, and me and my co-founders, um, founded it about like 2 and a half years ago, and it's actually a long journey that comes from my previous life. Uh, in a nutshell, I was modeling, I did TV hosting, was a part of like branding, marketing, just basically working as a freelancer in the creative industry for over a decade.

She's really humble, just by the way. You're really humble. It was way more than that, but continue.

Well, I'm telling my inner experience on my life, perfect, which is, uh, I guess more interesting. And so what was always attractive for me in the creative industry, even though I was a model, which is mostly like the final product of a process, was mostly the creative process in the back end of like, wow, all these creative people had an idea, had a vision, and somehow they made it happen, right? That was— and I feel like my connecting point. So where was it? What was— made me passionate about going to work was talking to the photographer and the makeup artist and the producer and kind of like seeing, seeing something comes to life, something from an unseen abstract idea into like a tangible product or like something that you've created. And so having that as my inner kind of like passionate connecting point didn't really come to expression until later, like in my life. So the first, I guess, 5, 7 years I was modeling and it went pretty well. And pretty convenient in a sense that I kept receiving jobs and, and just being a— all I needed to do is come to the set, be myself, be the talent, right? And just participate in this thing. And slowly, I guess also as a self-evolutionary process, I started feeling a bit dissatisfied with just playing this part in this— in the creative industry. Felt like this kind of a, I don't know, a desire and urge to be more involved or to do something like more substantial, that brings my gift more into the, into the surface. And then COVID happens and everything changed, like everything stopped on the external world, meaning this life that I have created, this persona, this show that is going for so long, all of a sudden stopped and it's just me sitting at home. And then that brought back the emphasis onto my inner world and my inner experience. And all of a sudden it's like, who who am I or who have society decided that I am or what I'm good at or what I need to be doing. All of a sudden, what, what can I do? What do I like to do, right? What is, and I've always carried like a notebook with ideas that I wanted to develop, creative ideas. And when COVID started, I really just was immersing myself in my inner world and in my ideas and what I'm passionate about. And in my personal life, I was going through a huge transformation. I was married back then. I was in a relationship for 7 years and I was going through a divorce and everything was a big momentum of change and shift for me. Um, and then I moved to New York and coming here as a— I mean, I still have my modeling agency and I still have this job kind of going on, but I've already like switched my— I've already felt like I rebirth in this new version of me, but I don't know what it means yet. I moved to New York and just starting, um, going around and see, okay, Who am I in this new, in this new world, in this new version of myself? I'm not confined by, by my old identity or things that I used to do or by this old persona. And coming here, I think the main question that was interesting for me is what can I, how can I be of service? Like what do I have to give in this place? And naturally, because I'm a creative person and all my friends are like creative professionals, and so I started just hosting these Shabbat dinners and then bringing people together and creating these creative experiences that I was passionate about. And all of a sudden, all these new opportunities for work has opened up for me because I have this longtime experience and all these different skills that I can do. And people are offering me to participate in, in different activities, like, hey, help me do this branding for this, uh, brand that I'm creating, or like, help us produce this event or this popup. And all of a sudden, as I started opening myself up to more and more job opportunities, I noticed there's a huge gap in the opportunities that I'm being presented or what's available for me versus me being able to capitalize on these opportunities and making an opportunity an actual paid job. So really working in my passion of bringing my vision to life actually also demands a business aspect that up until now I didn't, I didn't know how to do. My agent was doing that. And so I started just asking my friends, how do you do that? Can you send me a price off for a kind of example, a contract, or how much do you take for that? And slowly I noticed a much bigger problem than just myself, that all of my creative freelancers actually are just winging it. They really have no clue how to do it from start to end. It's a very fragmented process of like some of them work with a contract, someone send it to them, they don't know how to protect themselves, they don't know how to price themselves. They lose money because they don't remember who need to pay at what time, what are the milestones, and they're managing these craziest Excel spreadsheets to manage like the contacts and the invoices and the payments and everything. And unlike a regular business person who is probably like effortless action to do, like you, right? For a creative person, it takes a huge amount of energy to go out of your flow and do these things. And so, um, one of the conversations that I had to try to find a solution, or like try to, um, bring it together, I called my co-founders, which were my team in the army. We're in the army together, the Israeli army. And we, funny enough, what we did in the army, we were project managers of all the creative productions of the army, basically. So like army boots and, and off-site events and army festivals, we were like the first meeting or encounter of the Army with students before they join the Army and generally with the outside world. And so when I talk to them, and they're also freelancers, but they open their own software house building websites and UX/UI and applications, they were like, listen, we've been dealing with this problem for years now and we've developed this internal system to help us kind of like go through the whole process, and we started working on it together to see if there was some synergy, and quickly enough we realized that we already have everything we need, we just need to make it accessible and simplified to this creative industry, like the people that we're approaching. Sorry, that's a long— eh.

No, that was great.

No, the context is important.

Yeah, there's a lot of kind of components of that story that we can dive into. The one I want to start with is the reason we called this Turning Pro. Yeah, so Steven Pressfield wrote Turning Pro and the War of Art, and the kind of gist of it is that you have a shadow career and then your true career or your real calling. And when you're in your shadow career you have kind of this like internal angst, like this gut feeling that on the surface it may be, you know, maybe this is agency life for modeling or working marketing and advertising. It may have the glitz and it may have the money, but you have this like gut instinct that there's friction there. It's not really what you're meant to be doing. So I'm curious, looking back now, you kind of walked us through that journey. It's much easier in hindsight. You're like, oh, I did this and then I wanted to be of service and then I started hosting dinners. But I'm curious to kind of get a sense of where your mind and where your body was at in that transition, making the decision to, okay, I don't want to pursue this maybe shadow career any longer, and I'm ready for this next phase. But in that process, I'm sure there's a lot of late nights, I'm sure there's a lot of angst, kind of uncertainty about the next move. Walk us through your headspace at that time.

Wow, that's a very good question. Um, I see it very similar. I don't know if you heard about this term of the hero's journey. Yeah, right. So Joseph Campbell put it together. He made a lot of like, uh, like hero stories, and there's a, there's a very similar pattern that the hero's journey is going through. So you start in the regular world doing your shadow or the shadow work or whatever it is, just the normal world, and you get a call. And what is this call? The call for the adventure, it's called. You get a call to go out of your regular normal life, out of your box, into this, um, unknown adventurous world. But this call is not necessarily like a fun call to get, right? This call might be this anxie or frustration or dissatisfaction of like all of a sudden something is off. Like my life is great, great material external success, everything is working well, but I'm waking up and I'm like, can I switch this body? Can I like leave it here, have it all great and go somewhere else? And this angst or like frustration is going for a long time. At least for me, it went like maybe a couple of years. Until I was finally able to confront it and, and treat it as a threshold, which is what the hero's journey is allowing you. So now in hindsight, and I think that's one of the, one of the character of a founder is noticing or recognizing these frustrating moments as a threshold, meaning there's already a more expanded version of myself that I have created. And now there is a gap between where I'm standing and where I'm holding myself versus this new version that's already there. and this gap is the tension that I'm feeling. But then to let go of where I'm standing now is in a sense to die because it's everything I know, right? But you have to die, meaning you have to let go of it. You have to create space. You have to allow something new to come in. So for me, it was— I was entangled in my persona, um, in a very, very high volume, being, uh, quite familiar in Israel, having a, a high-profile relationship. Having a successful career in my modeling, you know, everything was very too comfortable and like very set in its ways. And I think COVID for me was a great gift. I mean, when every— a lot of people around me like, oh my God, like, what do we do now? I was like, finally, yes.

That provides the space to kind of reset.

Yes. And I just needed this space to go back into my cocoon and let this fluid new me kind of find a way. And you're right, I mean, now I'm talking like all happy and I have a business and this is great, but for maybe 2 years or like 3, 4 years maybe, it's mostly planting yourself and you feel like you're underground.

Yeah.

You're like a seed underground and it's cold and it's like dark and you don't know what's gonna come out, but it's like you have to kind of, because I guess there's no other way. I mean, for me it came to a point where I must die. Into it. There's no looking back. There's no way to go back.

There's a great framework. This is like a Twitter analogy, but there's this great framework about what to do when you're not 100% happy with where you are. Maybe you're not unhappy, but maybe you're bored and you're starting to wake up late and you kind of feel that conflict. And it was, if you want to change things, there's kind of 3 main things you got to do. You got to change who you're around all day. It could be relationship, could be your friends, what you do all day, so work or hobbies, and then where you are. And I'm also impressed with folks that, A, it's hard to do any of those because those are all really big decisions— ending a relationship, moving cities. It seems like you did all three of those things at once. And so that's a huge change.

Yeah.

Did you have, did you have a framework like that to kind of think through these things, or were you like, I need a full reset, and unintentionally kind of changed where you are, what you're doing all day, who you're around?

It didn't come so drastically, so it came in a, in stages. First, I would say definitely my spiritual practices had helped me go through that. And I think a spiritual practice is important in a sense that it puts me back in touch with this— my experience in my inner world, which is the cause to all effects, right? Instead of living in the world of effects, which is lagging, or it's like old news, it's things that I have created with my previous mindset. Come back inside. Where am I coming from? What's happening in my inner world? And so that was really helpful throughout the stages. And then when I, when I broke out of my, of my relationship or my marriage, first I just needed to clear my head. And I came to New York because it was the second place in the world where I felt at home. Because I lived here before, 10 years ago after the Army, and I had friends here and I was spending a lot of time here. So I just came here and I didn't know at all where I'm going and what I'm going to do. I was just thinking, well, I'm going I was gonna go back to Israel and find myself a place and like whatever. And I came here and I think within like the third week I was just walking down the street and I, I got it, like just like inspiration. I got clarity of like, oh, I'm moving here. And literally at that point nothing to support me moving here, not like financially, not like work opportunity, like nothing. Just like a crazy, just like an intuition, intuition of like, yeah, I'm moving here. And Only from the moment of me like going with it, jumping and saying, yeah, I'm moving here. Within 2 weeks, everything, the stars aligned and all the opportunities came to support me. So I think so. Then moving here was one stage. I didn't know what I was going to do when I moved here. I mean, I have modeling, I have this thing, okay, but I had no idea of the rebirth that I was going to go through. And I think most of all, it's an emotional rebirth. It's like, you know, you come to New York and especially in the beginning when I come here, everybody seemed to ask, what do you do? What do you do? What do you do? Everything is about—

it's a common question here.

Yeah. And I mean, it's great when you are doing something that you already know what it is and you're confident about it and you're telling about. But I guess most people most of the time are figuring out who they are and what they're doing. And I think because I went through this rebirth, I already had this external, like, material success. I didn't really care about people validating what I do or like saying what I do. I kind of like already pierced through that veil of illusion. So I kind of happy I allowed myself to just be here and say, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing yet. I don't know. I'm figuring it out. I'm changing. Uh, and I think that's something very important to allow myself, allow ourselves the space to change and the space to become, you know, where has this evolution of your spirituality come from?

Like, have you always been like this or has it been something that's evolved? In terms of like, you're a very spiritual person, you're very in tune with your inner world and how you think about situations and problem solving. Have you always been like this, or were there like moments in your life or things that have happened that have forced you to kind of reframe your thinking?

I think it's both. I think I always, in my core essence, there was always this tendency of— I remember being very like, I remember myself being, being in touch with my inner I like what I see. Yeah, it's me.

I can't say I've ever had that experience.

No, but that's why I'm so intrigued.

And another thing that I've always had since I was a young— lucid dreams. And if I ever had lucid dreams, I assumed you—

if there was one person I knew that had lucid dreams, it was you. That makes sense.

A lucid dream is when you wake up in the dream and realize you're dreaming, and so then you're much more free in the dream to do other things. You're not confined by gravity, for example. I fly a lot in my dream. And so having that experience always brought this like, just like seed of a question. How do I know this isn't a dream? Oh, what if this is a dream? Would I have acted differently if I knew I am much more powerful in this dream than I knew? So I guess, so that's the core kind of tendency, but then definitely events in my life who shattered my external perception of my reality had brought me even deeper into exploring it, into finding the language or the structure to work through it. And that's something that I've collected throughout the years.

Any particular event that you would say was like the biggest turning point in that regard?

Yes. Yes. I think, I think my divorce was the hardest thing emotionally that I went through. Um, in a way of like, wow, I've— because my parents are divorced as well. And so having a home or creating a home, like, what is home was a major theme in my life. Because my parents didn't really get along, so it was like two parallel universes. And so it was always something that I was dealing with. And then finally finding and creating that in my life, and then having that kind of like fall apart brought me until I guess the core wound, like the core question that motivates me or made me make the choices that I went through. So that was— that pierced the hardest and was the greatest breakthrough, the greatest breakdown and the greatest breakthrough, I would say.

I think there's moments in your life when you're not entirely sure where your maybe new sources of self-worth are coming from, especially when you're doing a lot of things. Like when I met Ben, when we first met, what, a year and a half ago or something? You were like, I'm doing this YouTube thing and I'm running this agency and we're turning it into this tool. Like, I have a vision for it, but we don't even have a name. You guys didn't even have a logo. We didn't have this podcast. And you were always a confident guy. But now whenever I talk to you or whenever we hang out, it's— I mean, we got a logo, we got color palettes. It's— I run Platter, I run the Turning Pro podcast, and then maybe you can have other things on the side. But going from kind of like fuzzy self-worth and different things that you're working on to establish like, this is what I'm working on and this is why. Walk me through that process for you, especially going, you know, kind of turning Happn into what it is now.

Yeah. So I would go back into coming here and kind of, well, when I came here, that was a lot of exploration. So let me just go out into the world, see what skills do I have, what can I give, who do I meet, what I'm excited about or passionate about, and just follow that and had that lead me. And then once I got like, uh, I got a handle on this, wait, there's, there's an actual problem here that is interesting, that I'm passionate about. It really connects everything that I know and the people that I work with and kind of, um, and then when I, when I realized this is a real thing or a real business, then I needed to make a decision because I could not— in order to change, really, I needed to, uh, I can't stay in the same mindset or be the same person and then all of a sudden have a business, a new business, right? It did require a change. And for me, for at least the integrity of the inner process, the way I experience it, I had to rebirth in it. So my decision was to quit modeling. And so once I realized I want to build this business, I was like, okay, I am the founder, I'm the CEO. I need 1,000% of myself now to take it from zero to one, to make it an actual business. And making that leap or that choice was also a difficult choice because modeling has really provided me and allowed me financial freedom and to live the lifestyle that I lived. And I needed to make some strategic choices to be able to say no. And in a way, I felt— and I don't know if it's justified, but I needed to go through the process that, that way— that in order to be a CEO or to build my own thing, I cannot work for someone else right now. I cannot have someone else tell me what to say, what to wear, what to do. I need to be fully for at least like enough time to be the CEO that I'm inside, you know, like to become this thing. And I think that was a major turning point of turning pro, of saying like, I'm jumping. Even if no one else is jumping with me at this time, I'm jumping. And by me jumping, kind of like when I decided to move to New York, Just by you making the leap, the universe matches, you know, but we need to make the first leap. So that was—

I think there's moments you also sometimes those big choices you kind of build up in your head for so long and they seem so scary. You're like, well, what if I quit and this is going to happen and this is going to happen? Or if you shut down the side project, you're worried about what's going to happen. But I mean, even for you with Birthday Series, like I remember at a certain point Platter was just doing too well that you decided to kind of like at least pause it and you can come back to it. And I'm actually curious, what was your kind of decision-making there? Because that was— I know that brought you a lot of like joy and curiosity on the side.

I think it was just being honest with myself. Like, it's something that brought me a lot of fulfillment and passion, and I still am very— I still love the project and the concept of it. But I think knowing myself and knowing that I'm an all-in or all-out kind of person, that not being able to do that with something and still trying to do it knowing in your heart that you can't give it what you want to, I think actually ends up causing more frustration and resentment than it does fulfillment and excitement. So for me, I think when I started it, it was viable because, I mean, I joke, but like the business wasn't like a real business in terms of where we were at. There was only so much we could be doing in that moment that it still felt possible. And then as both things started to grow, I was like, all right, like I'm lying to myself. Like I'm, I'm not being honest with myself about it. I joke around about this till this day. Like, I will pick that back up one day. Like, I feel very passionate about it, but I think that there's a timing for everything. And I think you just have to, like, trust your intuition on what you should be doing and when, and ultimately being honest with yourself about it. So I think it took a little bit of time to come to terms with it, that it was the right decision. But I'm pretty confident that I made the right decision.

I think when it's built up in your head, it can get a little scary sometimes. Like, I— when I was investing full-time, I had, like, this newsletter It was called The Proof, and I'd interview people about health and wellness routines. And for the longest time, I kind of felt a similar thing. Verbatim started to really do well. I was still kind of like, get it going on the side. And in my mind I was like, oh my God, everyone's going to be frustrated. How can I do this? And then I just stopped doing them. And once in a while people would be like, do you still do that? But I just stopped. And it like freed up so much of my time and energy and I stopped having that like friction against it. But no one really cared. and then I could just move on. And I was like, I, I've been thinking about this decision for like 6 months. Why was it so scary in my head?

I've been taking all this burden onto the decision that wasn't even like valid, or like no one cared. Yeah, I like— I think it's something that I like that you said, that is a good connection between honesty and following your intuition, because they are connected. In order to really hear the voice of your intuition, you have to be fully honest with yourself, and you have to be honest of saying, wait, I'm feeling frustrated. Wait, this doesn't fit me anymore. Or like, and sometimes it's scary because I've already committed and other people are a part of it, and like, what if I break this, whatever? But once you're honest with yourself, then your intuition gives you the solution, right?

I think it's something that has taken me a long time to like get better at, because I was always a people pleaser. I never wanted to let anyone down. I would do things even though I knew at my core I shouldn't be doing it. I would do things even though it was causing frustration for me because you don't want to disappoint others. So I think the sooner that you can live your unapologetic, like, authentic self, I think it's a lot more liberating on a personal level. And I actually think you end up being more productive with whatever it is you're doing because you have a clear mind and you're actually invested in whatever the thing is, because you know if it's not the right thing for you to be doing, that you'll unapologetically course correct to stay honest with yourself at all times.

Right.

I wanna talk about Hap a bit more and kind of your transition into like full-time CEO, 1000% behind it. And the thing, when I think Ben connected us and we started talking about it, the thing that immediately stood out to me was not just like in service of these people, but you were one of your customers. You really, really cared about it. There's so many startups that it's like, you know, a couple Stanford B-School grads that see a great market and wanna go after it. They care about the people they're serving, but it's not like this customer obsession. They weren't one of them before. And you can always tell that gap when you're in a sales call with one of these folks. And so when you were describing the company at first, I was like, she's not only one of these people, but these are her friends. And that's kind of what fuels a lot of the drive behind it. But tell me more about that around obsession with kind of your early users.

Well, let me take you back onto like 10 years ago, onto a moment that I felt like planted a seed. Seed for this, for my passion and why I'm passionate about it and, and how it kind of set, paved my way. So 10 years ago, I, I just finished the Army. I was 20 years old, and I moved to New York. And I came here and I heard a bunch of my people talking about Burning Man, about this festival. But it was 10 years ago. There was like no electric bicycle, no Instagram. Like nobody really knew what it was about yet. Um, but I heard about it and I, I got lit on it. I was like so excited and I got a ticket and I decided to go on my own, right? This is me.

You went to Burning Man on your own at 20 years old?

Yeah.

You didn't know anything?

I'm an ex-soldier of the IDF.

I feel like I know a lot about you. I think that is actually like the number one coolest thing you've ever done.

I'll tell you more about my first experience at Burning Man.

Dude, going by yourself at 20 years old is one of the most iconic things I've ever heard.

Even now, I wouldn't— imagine if you just got a ticket and you're like, I'm going.

I don't know if I would do it today, but, but back then it seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Um, I think being naive is actually a reason you did it. Like, to your point, now you're like, I don't know if I do it today. That's because you know too much, right?

I'm like, where am I going to sleep? Do I have water? Do I have access?

I slept in a tent and I rode on a regular bicycle in my first Burning Man. Um, I ended up coming with a friend, so I got a ticket and I was like, I'm going on my own. I got everything, the flights and everything. And I had Facebook back then. And I remember right the day before I fly to Reno, I'm like, anyone else that I know is going to Burning Man? And this one guy that's my friend, that's a DJ, he's like, oh my God, I'm also on my way. I'm coming on my own. Should we like rent a car and coming together? I was like, amazing. So, so we meet in Reno and I don't know anything. Right. And I'm, we're trying to figure out like what to what to buy, to go to Walmart. And I tell him, you know what, I think I heard people like join camps or something, maybe we should find a camp. This is 2 days before Burning Man, right? Obviously all the camps are already fully booked, but I go online in my like naive, just trusting energy, and I look for camps, and there's this one camp that is still available and ready to host us. You know, I'm like, this is amazing, look, there's still like open seats in this camp. So we sign on to this camp. We're going— us the way and showing us around. And I'm like, looking, I'm like, okay, well, and I come to my friend and I'm like, listen, I heard they're gonna be some naked people at Burning Man, but I didn't think like everyone, or like most of them. Is it like, what's going on? And slowly I'm realizing that the camp that we signed on to is called Poly Paradise, and it's the only official camp of polyamors at Burning Man. Which is of course the first time I'm hearing this term in my life, right?

Oh my God.

Yeah. So straight, like completely out of my comfort zone. My first Burning Man experience. Obviously they're very happy that this young 20-year-old girl with a bikini and a unicorn has joined their camp. And I stayed. I stayed in the camp and it was one of the most enlightening experience in a way that It's the first time I'm meeting this kind of a lifestyle, right? And polyamory, if anyone doesn't know, are people who are married but have like multiple loving relationships. And each day they had a tea party at 5 o'clock and they had two, um, older kind of like a psychologist in the camp. And they would do like this, um, this gathering, like a group kind of session of people sharing their experiences. And what I took from it, I remember it was the first time ever that I saw this radical honesty between couples of people. I mean, that this lifestyle obviously required, but it was very inspiring because like, wow, you can actually have that radical honesty without the lifestyle. Like, this is just the quality that they had to develop to survive in the relationship, but it's something so beautiful about it in a way of them being like spiritual partners, like, I don't know, transcending like the body in a way. Um, and that was my camp experience, but the whole more general experience that blew my mind. I was, I was riding in the Playa and there's all these big art installations and art cars and like it's a really a celebration of creativity. And, uh, and all the people are building these things all year round. They spend all their resources, their money, their time, like everything they have to build these huge creative things that we're all getting inspired, but in a week it's all gone. So they're all doing it for just one week. This is mind-blowing. I was like, wow, this is also possible. Like, I want to be a part of that. Like, I want to support that. There's something that's so inspiring about people just devoting themselves to the craft and to the passion and for the celebration of creativity that I just— I'm in awe of. And I think this is— so this is like one seed that was planted of like, wow, I love this creative life. I love seeing these people who are really giving everything to bring something, and this is kind of their service to the world, right? And how so difficult, it's almost an impossible mission to create something out of nothing. And so moving forward into me moving here and hosting all my friends and just like being more immersed in their businesses and what they're doing and seeing them struggling, like there's such vibrant, beautiful, inspiring, creative people and they're being bogged down constantly by just like the day-to-day business needs, you know, either people talking to them in a language that they don't understand or they need to go and chase after money or they don't know how to budget their things and so they have all these amazing creative ideas that don't come to fruition or when they come to fruition, they're done, you know, they're already depleted. And so I feel like in a just a very genuine kind of in my heart, what I want to see is all my friends succeeding, is all my friends thriving, is my friends bringing their ideas and their vision to life that I think is a great service to the world in a way that is in simple and flow and fun. And as I know it can be.

That is a wild story. Something I want to touch on in relation to that is I think something I've always admired about you is how present you are in like everything that you do, from like talking to the homeless guy on the street to like talking to the waitress at the coffee shop, even conversations that we have. You would think as an outsider looking in, like, you have no stress in your life, right? Like, you're so present, you always have a smile on your face, everything is about being grateful and honest. And just like, what is the self-talk that you go through to actually allow yourself to do that? And the second piece of that question is especially because you live in an environment where it's like the opposite of New York City. New York is all about this like hustle culture and you're not doing enough and everyone's so distracted. And I'm very guilty of that. And I feel like you're one of my friends that will keep me honest. I think I remember there was a moment we were talking about something. I was like, oh, like I'll text you later. And you're like, what do you mean? It's Shabbat. Like, why are you texting me? Right. And I remember going home that day and I was thinking about it.

I was like, okay.

I always tell myself that I'm too busy, I have so much going on, but like, so does she, and she finds a way to just like be present and honest. Like, how— where— how does that come— where does that come from? I'm so like mesmerized by it.

Well, first of all, thank you. Beautiful reflection. Um, I actually started observing Shabbat, and I don't know, it's not a religious thing, so it's hard to say observing. Probably religious people won't call it I'm observing Shabbat, but I started to turn my phone off. So like being off the grid for Shabbat, which is Saturday. So Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. And I only started doing it since I moved to New York. And so imagine, I mean, first of all, the state of mind that I came moving here. I had just died in my inner world, right? I let go of everything. So I came here like a clean slate and I came very, very in tune with what I want to create and how do I want my inner world to feel. Because I was already disillusioned with this external success or external materialistic success or whatever. It just, it didn't matter anymore for me. And so first of all, that was, I guess, I was ready already to build my life around my inner experience and have that first of all be my foundation, and then not needing to explain and not needing to show and not needing, because I already went through that, you know. And I think For some people, you have to go through that. You have to first saturate it. You have to first see through that veil before you're ready to put your energy where it matters. And I came here 24/7. New York is insane. You know, there's always something to do. There's always somewhere to go. And I felt that if I'm gonna go 24/7, 7 days a week, I'm just, I forget myself or I'm going insane. And there's no time for me to reflect on, on my inner world. And so I was like, Shabbat is a genius idea, let me just start like doing Shabbat, right? And the moment I did it, I knew this was like the right decision, right? So every— this today, this is like my, uh, the highest point of my week is coming to Friday afternoon and creating that sacred space. Because for me it's all about— I mean, life is not going to provide that for you. Life is going to run you over, and especially in New York like deep waters, like very stormy waters, you know, if you don't align yourself, if you don't push away and create that space and create that presence, it's not going to happen. And so I think making conscious choices, and I am practicing in it, what you see as kind of effortless is, is, uh, years of practice, years of like routines and habits that I put into place that will help me in the right moment to stay in my center.

What are some of those routines and habits outside of Shabbat that you feel like have helped mold you into that person you are today?

Um, definitely my morning routine.

Walk us through it.

I will walk you through it. Uh, I wake up in the morning, I start with it.

What time?

Usually between 7 and 8.

Okay.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I stopped using an alarm.

No alarm, team.

No alarm.

Wow.

Because I, I am leaning more into trusting my body and it's working unless I'm coming back 3 AM, you know, and there's something like I need to wake up early. But usually I don't create that scenario. I know when I go to sleep, I tell my body when I want to wake up and I just wake up at the time.

I do the same thing. And then this morning, I think for the first time in 5 years, I told my body 6, 6:30, you got work to do. I woke up this morning at like 8:30. Yeah, I was like, oh no. That's the first time it's happened in a long time.

But maybe you can trust that your body knows what it needs.

I, I guess my body overrided its like intel the night before with like, I need sleep, it's more important.

Yeah. So, um, and I actually have a ritual before I go to sleep, but the morning is more important because I feel like starting the morning on your terms, uh, it really changes everything because obviously you can kind of create that space later in the day, but it's harder. So when I wake up in the morning, I don't sleep with my phone next to my bed. Usually there's exceptions, but I wake up, I start with a prayer, a gratitude prayer, and then I take a shower and I meditate. And I don't touch my phone, I guess, for the first 45 minutes, maybe an hour, before I align myself. And aligning myself is waking up and saying, okay, where am I? Who am I today? How am I feeling? How is my body feeling? Like, before all of the thoughts and stuff of yesterday, of Maura kind of kick in being like, where do I want to be? And create that presence. And I think once I started creating that presence in the morning, it really was much easier to tap into it during the day. Because the idea that that space is already there inside you is just that the accessibility of how to tap into it when you need is the hard part, right? And the practice just creates more and more windows. It just makes it more accessible, this master key that whenever I need or when I'm actually stress, I have access to this place.

Okay, so you do the morning prayer.

Yeah.

And then you shower. No. Yeah.

And then meditate.

And meditate.

Grab my phone. I take Bono for a walk and get coffee. We go to the park, or usually where Bono wants. It's Bono's walk. So every day is a different direction. I actually like to let him kind of go and see where he wants to go and what's out there. Usually like cute little adventures along the way. And then I, in the morning, this is my time with my team, um, because they're 7 hours like later. So we have a few hours of like working together and kind of aligning. And then, um, every day is different. Uh, I have usually my work is like meetings with either creators or partners, like people that we work with, um, and more networking and kind of bringing the pieces together. I really like to have a flexible, um, Lifestyle and a flexible schedule. I'm not a person who likes to put things on the schedule so much. I like it to be fluid, you know, because I have to stay in my flow.

This was the one thing I was like, no, we have to put this on the schedule.

Yeah, and I did. No, sometimes you have to, but most of the time— and this goes back to me creating this life that allows me to stay in my flow— I'm like, my flow and let's call it alignment with my true self is the number one priority for me in my life. And so creating a schedule that allows me to be in my flow and also brings me much more productive, much more present, much more efficient to everything that I do.

How has that affected your management style as a CEO? Because I'm thinking about how I'm quite literally the opposite in that regard. The opposite, like polar opposite. So I'm curious, like, how would your team members describe you and like, what are maybe some of the routines or principles that you've instilled in, in the way your business operates?

It's a great question. I think my team really balances me out, and we were like that in the army as well because we were actually sitting in the same office in the army, and we have amazing synergy. But I'm always late everywhere.

Just something that you know about yourself?

Yeah, well, I say I'm always in divine timing, but other people say— someone says I'm late, but I'm not.

It's divine timing.

I think I'm always in perfect timing. But I just don't really, I haven't really aligned my inner sense of timing with the earth external time schedule. So a lot of times it does work in my favor because there's, if there is a secret door somewhere that you need to sneak in or something needs to happen unexpectedly, then I'm the person for the mission, you know, because that door is probably open for me. Um, but if it's more like a structural thing and kind of like we need to create like a roadmap or whatever, At least my co-founders are like much more organized and like it because she's like, let's go for a walk, the roadmap will come to us.

And they're like, no, we gotta write it down.

And both of us are right. Yeah, yeah, we— you do need a plan, but also you do need the person to recognize, especially when things go unexpected, which is most of the time, to find new ways. So I think I'm more as an entrepreneur, more like the vision side of creative side. I'm very comfortable in going out into the unknown and come back with something. You know, like I thrive on the adventure where other people need much more structure than kind of planning. And so I think we have a really good balance. I did learn to become much more accurate in my timing, in my budgets, in just like putting things in the right place, obviously, because when you build a business you have to. But I think because it was a part of my vision, I was inspired inspired to learn it and to put these habits into place, where I guess in my old life it always felt like an external authority kind of like making me come on time. Now it's more like, no, I want to execute this plan in the best possible way. So this is exciting.

What about, um, can you speak a little bit about the filter that you have in terms of relationships you have in your life? Like, obviously you've— you had a very successful previous career before you reinvented yourself, and I'm sure there's probably people who figure that out and like might be disingenuous in what they're looking for and in building relationships with you because you're such a kind-hearted person. Like I said, she knows the full life story of the homeless guy who's on our corner every day, right? Like, there's— not everyone is like that. And so I think because you're so kind-hearted, I, I wonder if there's moments where you feel like there's people that you can just suss out that are like, are not in it for the right reasons. What is your filter for figuring out what relationships in your life are meant to be there versus ones that are not?

Well, I think what I learned, and it definitely makes it easier, um, creating a life and a foundation where I'm mostly in my inner world, or like very in touch with my inner world. Now I just trust my intuition and I don't need more data. So my barometer is when I spend some time with someone, how do I feel after? Do I feel depleted? Do I feel excited? Do I feel inspired? Do I feel Do I feel like constricted? And that's just my barometer because I feel when there is a genuine connection, you do feel that openness and that expansiveness and that sense of trust. And it's good enough information to trust versus you need to ask about the person or try to analyze their behavior, whatever that— it doesn't really matter. Does it feel good or does it not feel good?

Dude, this is last night for me.

What?

Oh, from our—

I mean, I'm going to keep it— I'm going to keep it anonymous, but like I met someone last night, uh, through a friend of mine and was just like— I happened to just kind of walk into a conversation. It was just like saying hi, and I removed myself in like 10 minutes. And I was like, all my like red flags and all the sirens are going off in my head of just like, this is not— this is not a person that you want to align yourself with. And I kind of just like stepped out of the situation. And, and granted I don't want to be quick to judge someone because you don't know everyone's story, and there's, there's context sometimes that you're lacking. And I called another mutual friend and I was like, hey, do you know this person, X, Y, and Z? And they told me exactly what I thought, and it was after like 10 minutes, and I removed myself and I was like, oh my God, I know my intuition is telling me like run the other way. And it was just like a very— it was a very weird moment for me because I think over the last couple years I've gotten way better at like trusting my intuition and living with decisions I make based on my gut feeling. But I think oftentimes in the past I used to go against the grain because you're nervous, right? Like, you always want— for me, it was like I always wanted data. I always wanted like a fact, like a reason that I, I can— like, if it didn't go well, I could look back at like a number and be like, well, I knew I made this decision because of this, versus just like this open-ended, if you know, you know. And it happened yesterday, and it was just a wild experience for you to talk about that because the intuition piece is so important to me. Like, if I don't align with someone qualitatively after meeting them, like, I just know it's not— they're not meant to be in my life. And I think the old version of me was a people pleaser and wanted to be friends with everyone and do everything. And now I'm just like so okay with— with meeting someone, I'm like, you know what, if it's not meant to be, like, we'll, we'll go our separate ways, and that's okay.

I think New York really is a boot camp for that because it's such a jungle. Oh yeah, you meet so many people who have so many different desires and pulling you so many different directions. If you if you're not sharp and your instincts don't come out at the right moment, you just spend like your time and your energy on like things that don't matter to you. So I think this is something that you learn to be very on point with, you know? And I feel like, I guess as an intelligent or curious person in general, it's a very easy slippery slope to fall into. I need more data, just more, a little bit more data so I can get the right conclusion. And that kind of become, makes you even further away from the inner feeling. And I think trusting your intuition is just trusting that there's a bigger data mechanism that's already making all these, uh, um, uh, conclusions for you without you needing to control it. And once you surrender that control and just trust it, it just takes you faster to where you wanna go.

I think there's people that you, like the people that you meet and immediately just start laughing within like the first 2 minutes, like cracking jokes. That's always the best barometer, right? And I definitely have fallen into the trap of when you're kind of unsure, maybe you don't get red flags like in your example right away, but the ones where you kind of get along, you're kind of dancing around the edges and you're like, they seem great on paper. We have all this overlap. I should try again. And then you do a second time and a third time and you still don't crack that versus the people that you meet right away. Like when we met right away, it's like, okay, cool. Let's, let's not only like build businesses together, but like, let's go into business together. And those you don't even think about. It's not even, I should do this again just to confirm. And those are the ones I feel like that's the beauty of New York as well, that you'll meet people not even in the same industry that you just start cracking jokes with immediately and you're on that friend level. And that's such a beautiful thing when that happens.

It's amazing. I think, first of all, that's what I love about New York is the people who come here and then what's possible because everything is people eventually. Every business that you're creating is people for people, right? So it's everything. And I think something that I learned here, and maybe it's because I jumped into like a new industry of the tech business, so like this business world that I didn't know before. And there I got this trap again where now I'm meeting all these people and all of these are potential opportunities for either collaboration or investors or whatever. And I felt like I need to now tell about my business or share my idea, like, with everyone and kind of like waste my energy because there might be— because maybe I don't understand or I don't really know. And kind of, it took me some time to— and I guess when I got more comfortable in this like new arena, to again go back and trusting my intuition. And now I feel like not everyone that comes to me and asks me about my business, I feel inspired to share. And I think it's also a more accurate kind of point of view that I came in that is more aligning with myself and my character that I don't want to sell the business to anyone and that's not my approach at all. Actually, the way I see it is that I'm sharing this vision and finding other people who are also aligned with this vision and finding synergy and kind of like passion in working together towards that vision. And that's a whole different premise and like a whole different approach that really, I guess, freed up a lot of energy to do find the right people. People and not needing to validate my, um, what I'm doing, like, or how I'm doing with, like, people who don't really matter.

I think it takes a level of maturity and trust to be able to do that, because, uh, I think there's some instances where you might lose, like, that serendipitous conversation where that one person you didn't tell your business about might have been the person that changed everything. But, like, that's not a sustainable mindset to then feel like you have to tell everyone. So having the ability again to trust your intuition to know that when you make decisions, it is the right decision and you can live with the outcome of that decision. I don't think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs really possess, even though they want to say they do. I'm curious if you feel like some of the experiences you had in your early modeling career have had like this qualitative impact on your life as an entrepreneur.

Absolutely. I think mostly is facing rejection. Facing rejection, um, having a or like being comfortable with this gap of meeting people who only see the external part of like whatever it is that's being shown and then being comfortable with, being comfortable in having that gap and then maybe even being playful with it. Like it's fun to surprise someone who didn't really expect, right? So I think dealing with rejection, meaning I'm gonna tell my idea to so many people, some of them might think this is, either nuts or not important or whatever it is, I'm not going to get the feedback that I want. And maybe just 1 or 2 people are going to be like, oh my God, this is an amazing idea. And I guess you have to enjoy the ride because if you don't enjoy the ride, there's money or whatever, success is not a big enough motivation to go through it. I think it's more so the passion and the adventure and the people you meet along the way and the experience that you're cultivating. If anything, I'm trying to think if I learned anything else from modeling that applies to that. Accept the rejection part. Um, maybe also seeing through it, the illusion of how things are being presented, because in modeling everything is an illusion, right? You're presenting something, it's not at all what it looks like in real life, um, to some degree.

I wanna, I wanna go deeper on that though, because I think you're 100% right. Yeah, you've been someone who's been on both sides of the coin of being the like famous person with all the social media followers, and there's a ton of people who see that from the outside and aspire to be that, right? Like, I think there's a lot of people who don't actually understand what it means to like live that life, and they see the commercials you do and the followers you have on Instagram and the deals you're doing in this, you know, picture-perfect marriage that you were perceived to be in at one point in your life. And then there's the other side of it where like, you're, you know, you're one of us also. Like, you're building a company, you'll talk to the stranger on the street. Like, you're not this like foreign object that someone can't talk to because you're like this big famous person. Can you speak a little bit to like the pros and cons of being in that life? Because I think there's a lot of young people who are actually very delusional and don't really understand the implications, both positive and negative, that they long for this thing that odds are if they got it, I'm not actually sure if they'd want to keep it.

They definitely wouldn't want to keep it. Um, well, I think it really depends where you're coming from. I think one major confusion that I recognize, or the way I see it with younger people who wants to be famous or whatever it is. I think underneath it, they just want to be seen for who they are, and they kind of projected, or they believe that if many people will see them and like them and follow them, they will feel seen. But actually the opposite is true, because they— if you go through this path and you're trying to get something externally that you not really recognize your real needs, you end up being looked at by a lot of people, but feeling even less seen for your true self. And so I think, well, fame is a weird experience to have, I guess, in any kind of a scale, because what's weird about it is like, well, think, um, in a smaller scale, you have your family and you have the, the city where you grew up in, where everybody knows you and, and everybody knows your persona a certain way. And then you go, you go to New York, you reinvent yourself, you create a new life, and you're already a new person and you come back home to your family and they're like, no, where's Ben? This is not the Ben we know. Right. And not even intentionally or consciously, but these people know you in a certain way. And so they immediately put you in this pattern unconsciously. Right. And so it takes a larger amount of energy to change in front of the people who already know you and your former self. So now turn that volume on to like the whole country. Or like the whole city where you're from, right? And then everywhere you go, you feel like you're confined by this persona. You have this extra burden of like you're also a public person. And so that creates a huge distortion between your— or a bigger gap between my inner experience and then the external appearance of me or how it's been perceived externally. And I think this gap is bearable or can be harmonious as long as you're doing something out of service. If you are really sharing your true gifts and you're an artist and the side effect of your success is having people recognize you, but then they get— you do feel like you share your gift. It's not about you. It's not something like connected to your persona. But if it's just the fame and it's just your face and it's just like this hype, but you don't feel like you're connected to a service, I feel like it's kind of, you know how you put like a magnifying glass on an ant with the sun and it gets burned? You have to reflect that light back, otherwise you get burned. It's, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. It's like a black hole. And so yeah, I feel people don't think about the price. Everything comes with a price in life, right? So the price of fame is your freedom in a sense. So you're privacy, and that's a big price to pay. Um, sometimes it's worth it, and I guess most of the time if it's not coming from the right place, it's definitely not.

Were any of those the driving forces or part of it for you to want to like move to New York and reinvent yourself?

Definitely. I think the major word that I had, a need that I needed, was freedom. Um, and I only now can say how much I was right that, um, for my personality, the, the foundation or the nurturing that I needed to thrive and to blossom was just freedom. And freedom means I can go out with Bono and decide who I am today and let Bono— exactly.

I think I've ever heard— I let my dog take me for walks in the morning.

Just go to a corner and say, where do you want to go next?

Yeah, if Bono goes left, where— if Bono goes left, we're going left.

Yeah, that is your description of what you went through was one of the most like clarifying and thorough descriptions that I think I've ever heard of, because I feel like we've definitely seen interviews of like actors or famous people or creators talk about that experience. I don't think anyone has described it as succinctly as that. And I think the closest to it is— did you read, or either of you read Matthew McConaughey's book Greenlights?

I haven't yet, but I did not.

He— beautiful, surprisingly well-written book. But he talks about basically he didn't have work for like 2 to 3 years. When he stopped doing— he made a conscious decision of like, I don't want to be the rom-com guy anymore. You know, shirtless on the beach surfing in like every rom-com movie for like 8 years. And he was at the top of the game. He was like number one. And he just kept turning them down until they stopped coming in and kept applying to serious roles. And he said he literally didn't have work for like 2 or 3 years at the top of his game. And then got Dallas Buyers Club and then got True Detective and is now like, at least in my eyes, I don't know him as the rom-com guy. I know him as like one of the most adaptable actors in his genre and like a really serious actor. But that like 2 to 3 year gap, he describes it very similarly.

Mm-hmm. You have to make that sacrifice. You have to let a part of you die to really create space for a new part to be born. And you, I, I guess the crux of it is that you don't have control. You wanna say, okay, I'll let it go once I have this solid thing there. But it doesn't work like that because what's coming next has nothing to do or doesn't look like at all like what came before, like a butterfly, right?

What does life look like outside of work for you? Like, what do you— what are your hobbies?

I think my— what's cool is that today my work life and my personal life is really aligning. There's not much of a difference. Like, I am the same person here and there, and I do the things that I'm passionate about here and there. Because when I'm not at work, I am— I love hosting people. That's my number one thing. There's— I love nurturing and, and creating a space where people feel comfortable to bring their true selves and, and be creative and innovative. I love cooking, which is a part of kind of the same. You haven't been to my Shabbat dinner yet.

Not yet. And you haven't been to—

has she got an invite?

And she hasn't. And she hasn't been to one of the Founder Cold Plunge Hangouts either.

Very fair.

Okay, we have some reconciling to do here.

We have more future adventures together. Um, I love, uh, I love simple things. I love to take a walk outside and see flowers and look at the sky and be with my dog and cat and my friends and, or read something I'm interested about, play some music. Like, I guess very simple, very simple things. I think I would say it's just, how do you say, growing more moments of presence in my life because essentially it's not really what I do, it's more the question. Quality of presence that I bring to what I do that brings the fulfillment and the enjoyment. And every week is something different, you know.

And it's very obvious. I, I think you're, you're very genuine when you say that. Um, another question I have— I, I don't want this to become a political discussion, but I think like culturally it's very important to me. Obviously what's going on in the world right now, I think it's something that we both feel deeply affected by for different reasons, but like a lot of similarities. I'm curious from your perspective What has it been like adapting in your life over the last couple months as someone who like moved away from Israel to like kind of reinvent yourself, start this company, and now you're kind of just like here looking back, watching, reading, talking to friends, whatever? It's undeniably had a big impact on all of us, but I'm curious what your experience has been like over the last couple months.

Wow, I can take it to so many different directions. Um, first of all, everything's changed. For me and everyone I know in Israel since October 7th. I was here for at least the first 6 months and there was something really, really terrible and hard about being far away, even though on one end, like, wow, I did move on time and, you know, and like I'm here, but on the other end, like I had nothing to do, you know, it's my family, it's my friends that are actually in danger. And I feel maybe it's the first time in my life where I felt this visceral reaction in my, literally in the molecular DNA level of like, wow, if someone would now come into my village and threaten my family, I would fight. Like I felt that, I felt that, yeah, just that visceral reaction. And I felt very, very identified with my Jewish identity, I think more than I ever before. And it was very, It was very disruptive in many ways. First of all, I knew— I know a lot of friends who passed away, were killed unfortunately in this period of time. And having my family in kind of like an insecure, constant state brought back, I guess, maybe first of all, emphasis on priority and what's essential and what matters, and I guess going even more deeper onto— I, I don't have time and I don't want to spend my energy on things that are not really important in my life. So the family and my people, my tribe, the people that I love that are surrounding me is where I want to put most of my energy. Then there was this whole, I guess, um, being Jewish in the world, of being not just Jewish, being Israeli in the world, building something and then having that backlash, having this whole political idea in the background. And I think maybe the first time I was confronting it, because until then I didn't really have any— I mean, I don't really watch the news or watch politics or anything, but— and I didn't have to confront it, but now I feel like everyone had to confront it one way or another. I don't know, it was difficult. I see a lot of silver lining, especially when I went to Israel now. And I guess when you see it from here, it always look much more scary and frightening, and you only see the negative also. And when you go there, you're surprised to see how much healing energy and light and support and actually cooperation you see from all people, all genders, all religion, all kind of, from the whole tapestry of Israel. Working together. And I think for me, ideally, or what I see from the inside of Israel, is that Israel can be the most beautiful example of coexistence and of peace and harmony and people cooperating and living together. And maybe because of that, we need to go through this deep healing process to allow that. Because I feel like if we can do it there, anyone in the world can do it. But it's so, um, yeah, it's so, so, uh, it's such a deep prehistorical wound.

Why— you said something there that I wanna, I wanna highlight, which is it— moments like that force you to think about what your priorities are, like what really matters. Why do you think it is a thing where usually people need like some sort of traumatic event, in a lot of instances, to really check in with themselves and be present about like, wait, what matters, right? Because We get lost in this startup world of like, I gotta send this proposal to this client and this was late and this didn't work. And then you see things like this happen and you're like, wait, my family's there. Like, my business is trivial. Like, I could wake up tomorrow and this could all be gone and it's still not the most important thing. But I always wondered, why is that? Because I'm very guilty of this too, where I get caught up in things and I get fixated on things and you really lose sight of like really what's important, like why we exist. I'm curious if you have any insight or perspective on like why you think that is the way that it is.

Well, it's kind of like what I described before of being in these deep waters of existence or experience, and you keep being washed over by all these other experiences and life that happens around you. And if you don't create that space, you lose it. And then what trauma does, it creates that space. It first shatters your, your older perception, and then it creates this void or this space where you finally can look at your life from the inside. And I guess you— we can voluntarily do that every day or create that space, um, or we can wait until we get slapped in the face. Like, you were just telling me today, for the first time. Yeah, yeah, you got punched in the face and it was nothing like the practice, right?

No, not at all. Feel like I've sat here in a couple moments just like stared out of the window. I'm like, wow, I can't believe I did that.

Ben's doing a lot of reflection today with the shattered space.

Yeah, when you have a headache, it forces you to.

No, I think the one thing that I would say, um, that I do want to put the emphasis on, and that my Israeli friends right now, and especially I think being, um, in the— an entrepreneur, like building or creating things, is whenever there's a huge destructive energy, there's also a huge potential for creative energy. Every breakdown is a breakthrough. And I think What we need to do, what we can do with the gifts that we have is finding the solutions and the opportunities and seeing like a brighter, like a vision of a brighter future where most people that are hurting and that are in trauma right now cannot do.

Imagine what, how much better of a world we'd live in if everyone had this level of optimism.

Not optimism, but I think also clarity of like processing a lot of this stuff and at least having some like mental frameworks to think through it with. There are very few people that I know that have those kind of minute you shoot a question their way, it's immediate kind of like mental framework built around it.

I— that was a perfect place for me to stop. I feel like that was the, the last thing I wanted to end on.

That was a great pod.

Yeah, thanks for coming on today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Can you talk to the middle camera in the middle this time? This is such CEO boss energy. So you're the, you're the second person, and I think this is episode 53. The second person in 53 episodes to sit in the middle chair.

I asked to sit in the middle.

For context, for context, Prince episode 1 and you.

Yeah, so, um, hi, thank you for watching. Thank you for letting me sit in the middle. I hope you enjoyed.

Let them know where they can find you and what you're working on.

Well, you can find us on happ.network, H-A-P-P dot network, and pre-register We're gonna start our pilot season soon in November in New York City. Um, we'll be happy to have you on board.

Amazing.

Thanks for coming on. This was great. Thank you.

Thank you.