#064: How Michael Chernow Went From Rock Bottom to $4M in 12 Months

Like, if I was sitting next to me, you would never ever believe, ever believe the biggest betting man in the country would never put money on this guy turning into this guy. That like, I live a sober life, I face every single situation head-on. When I want something, I fucking get it because I attack it because I've got nothing standing in my way. And when it gets really, really hard, I get really, really powerful and strong. If I had to sacrifice my fitness and my health and my wellness tomorrow, shut her down. If I had to sacrifice my family, not even a— not even a question.

Michael Chernow is the entrepreneurial force behind Creatures of Habit and the Meatball Shop. Growing up in the heart of New York City, Michael faced early challenges including a turbulent family life and the allure of nightlife, leading to a struggle with substance abuse. Following a near-fatal overdose, he committed to sobriety with the help of a mentor who introduced him to Muay Thai kickboxing. In this episode, Michael opens up about how martial arts and a regimented lifestyle set him up on the path to becoming a successful restaurateur and founder of a wellness brand that embodies his passion for fitness, nutrition, and disciplined daily habits. He also discusses the rigorous structure he's built into his days to maintain peak performance and balance from early morning workouts to family time. Welcome back to Season 3, Episode 7 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Michael Chernow, the founder of Creatures of Habit and a serial entrepreneur. Thanks for joining us today.

What's up, man?

So we started going down a rabbit hole and I was like, whoa, wait, you gotta stop. We gotta hit record first because I think these are actually the conversations that the people listening to this are gonna want to get into. So to jump right into it, I was explaining to you how martial arts has been something that I've picked up over the last year, and it's really like changed my life in a lot of different ways. And I know going back to the— I mean, fast forward, go backwards 20 years now, tomorrow it changed your life as well.

I mean, so tomorrow— I don't know when this podcast will air.

It'll, it'll be a couple months.

Okay. Yeah, so tomorrow is, is my 20-year anniversary of sobriety. And right as soon as I got sober, I got very lucky, and I met two guys that kind of swooped in and introduced me to Muay Thai kickboxing. So these dudes were sober at that point when I had made the decision. I was kind of like— I was obviously— I was done. I was depleted. I was, I was beyond depressed and miserable, um, but I was also totally terrified because I had been living my life a certain way for the last 10, 11 years. Which was not good. But these guys came in, and I thought that like getting sober was basically going to mean like I was going to live this boring life. I met these dudes, they were tough guys covered in tattoos, and they basically like became my older brothers quick and introduced me to Muay Thai. And you know, I kind of laugh about it because like when I was a kid, I always wanted to be a ninja. There was a, there was a movie, uh, that came out before I was born, but I remember, like, I was born in the '80s, and there was this movie called The Last Dragon, and it took place in New York City, and it was like a modern, for that time, spoof on Bruce Lee's, you know, kung fu movies. And this dude Bruce Leroy, this guy Taimak, played this kid Bruce Leroy, and he was just like my idol. And when I was a kid, I would go to Canal Street and like go into the stores and like go into the back, and there'd be like ninja stars. And anyway, when I got sober, these guys introduced me to Muay Thai, And I just became— I don't know how, I don't know, like, like, it was— it had to have been just like the right timing, but I just became obsessed. And I, I put my, my heart into this, into this sport. And, and along with, you know, the sober community, these two dudes that kind of really came to my rescue. And I felt like at that time— and I, and I also, you know, we were also talking about the correlation between— before we started rolling martial arts and entrepreneurship, right? And I think that there's just a lot of correlation in just sport in general and entrepreneurship. But for me, I think martial art really, like, began to— I began to see this blueprint. And at that time, I wanted someone to pat me on the back, like, I wanted someone to, to make proud. And these two guys were, like, there at the right time because I was so I, I had zero self-confidence, zero self-esteem, even though I had a big ego. I did. Like, I was, you know, I worked at a very, very popular, busy restaurant for years. Like, everybody knew Mikey in this, in the city. Um, I was, I was dying inside, and I was— and, uh, and so these guys came in and, and they brought me into, into a martial arts academy right around the corner on, uh, Broadway and Canal. And I just sunk in and, uh, I got my ass kicked daily, you know. But what it taught me and what I use today in business and as a husband and as a father is this idea that like the only thing I have to do right, the only thing I have to do well, the only thing I have to do almost perfectly is get back up. Like, that is it. Everything else is open, is fair game. Get your ass kicked, show up tomorrow. Fail on it, you know, show up later on. You know, it's just like, as long as I get back up, you know, I didn't go to college, I didn't go to business school, I didn't do any of that shit. I didn't come from a family of, you know, successful entrepreneurs. I literally learned what I know today from the years of working in restaurants, but also from a martial art, which was get back up no matter what. Just, just, just get back up.

And you made a comment before we started which was something along the lines of, all it takes is one shot.

Yeah. And, and then again, right, like sometimes you can— you could be, you could be the, the best guy at the gym and you're in the ring with someone young and fresh and you let your guard down a little bit and then boom, that one dude just gives you that, like, found the right, found the timing, found the spot and got you. And, you know, sometimes in business, right, like you hear about these like pivotal moments, these, these turning points where maybe it's a piece of content, maybe it's a, maybe it's a product.

Turning pro.

There it is, right? Like you hear about these, these, you hear these stories about a business that was like, you know, doing well, and then all of a sudden they had this inflection point and it was based on something, you know, not extraordinary, you know what I mean? And then flies off the handle. So I think, you know, there's that— that too in martial art is like something that, you know, is very possible.

I want to rewind to before you discovered martial arts, so You actually spoke to Ryan for 2 seconds when he walked upstairs. One of my best friends in the world, 11 years sober, was one of the best soccer players in his age class, went down the path of getting into drugs and, you know, his life took a left-hand turn, if you will. And so I think I got very educated about it just from like, you know, living with him for 2 years and really trying to understand this. And so I want to— I want to get a better understanding of like what your childhood was like. What was that moment in time where you're like, I need to say something, and if I don't, what are the alternatives? Right. I want you to walk me through that journey.

Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up right here in Manhattan. I grew up in Manhattan, you know, and there's an unbelievable wealth of exposure you get here in the city, specifically growing up here, because, you know, now I don't live in the city. And when I walk outside of my house, I don't see anyone at all. I, I mean, I could walk 5 miles, and I do, and I'll take a jog. Maybe I'll see somebody on a bike, or maybe I see rarely somebody else running. But, you know, I live in rural New York, man. Like, there's cars, but like, I'm not, I'm not seeing what they're wearing, their gestures, their body language, like, none of it. You walk outside of your apartment right here where you live, and you're hit with like 1,000 people within a minute.

You gotta keep your head up.

Yeah, like, you're— it's just— so, I grew up like that. I grew up in the sort of epicenter of modern-day culture here in New York, and I wouldn't change it for the world. But I was also exposed to a lot of the bad news as well, you know? And so I started working in restaurants and all that stuff. I had a pretty rough-and-tumble childhood. My dad was very, very tough. He was an abusive guy, aggressive guy, mentally ill, and we lived in tight quarters. And he was on permanent disability, so he was just angry, you know. He was an electrician, had to stop working, and, you know, when he was relatively young. And then my mom was a secretary trying to float the fam, and so she was working, he was not. It was rough. I ended up becoming incredibly rebellious at a young age. And I, you know, I was a great kid when I was young. As I hit that like 11, 12, 13, I wouldn't wish me on like any parent ever. And so I got a job in a restaurant when I was 12, and I kind of like, I was like, this is it. Like, I found my spot, you know? Like, I was working at night, my parents had no control over me, and I was able to be whoever I wanted to be in this restaurant. And so I continued working in restaurants all through high school. I moved out of my parents' house when I was 15. And I moved to— first I moved to 60— at first I moved to Alumni Hall, which is like an NYU dorm that I was like crashing at. And then I moved to 68th Street, and then I moved down to 9th Street. And I lived on— I lived downtown on 9th Street from probably like 17 till, you know, 19, 20. And, you know, I got deeply, deeply addicted to alcohol and substances, and everybody around me for the most part was doing the same thing. And that's because I was working in the nightlife, and I hung out with a lot of the wrong people. And I was always a good person, but I ended up doing, you know, not the greatest things. And, uh, finally it got to a point where I was— I was like, heroin became a part of that story, and I overdosed. And I, you know, I knew that that was kind of like, uh I couldn't— I could— when I— when that happened and I died and then came back to life, I had made a, like, a promise because I'd known for years, like, literally since I'm like 15, 16, I had known that, like, I have a severe problem and the only person that's going to be able to help me is me. But I just wasn't ready. And, and that's something, you know, anybody who's struggling with that or going through that, you know, I have absolute empathy and compassion for because typically there's a reason. Some people are predisposed. I think I had some predisposition to addiction, but really, you know, the trauma or the experiences that you have in life will help motivate those decisions on a regular basis. And once you find the— once you find the drugs and the alcohol are able to sort of manage your emotions and manage your mood, then it becomes a real crutch, and it's almost impossible to convince yourself to not want to do it when you, when you are consistently in control of being able to numb yourself out. I knew that, like, I had a real issue, and, and I knew that if I didn't stop, I was going to die. And then ultimately I died, and it was lucky, you know. And I swore, leaving that apartment on 13th Street like this was it, done, I can't do this. Like everybody's telling me I'm dying. My friends, I burned bridges. I mean, I was 86'd from every single bar south of Houston, north of Delancey, east of Allen, and west of Essex. Like legit, like people wouldn't let me in anymore because I was just such a nuisance. And I just kept like saying that out loud, you know, 20 years ago today I was in the worst of the worst. Like this was it. Today, 20 years ago, August 1st, 2004, I was like, if I was sitting next to me, you would never ever believe, ever believe the biggest betting man in the country would never put money on this guy turning into this guy. So I remember saying to myself, hey, this is it. Like, I can't— this is— I, I'm, I'm, I've just died. The fact that I'm walking right now is insane. And I found myself like 4 hours later back at it, you know? And so I couldn't figure out how to stop. And then one day, 2 weeks later, I had slept through work 'cause I was still working in a restaurant. And my boss was like, dude, I love you. I'm watching you die and I can't do it anymore, man. It's just everybody, It would be terrible if you died here. And it would be terrible if you died. But I would never be able to live with myself if I had anything to do with this. So I have to let you go. And he loved me. He was kind of like my surrogate dad. And he was always trying to tell me. But we partied together, too. But he was always like, dude, you just push it way too far. Anyway, I begged him. I begged him for my job. He said, look, dude, if you show up here at 8 o'clock in the morning and clean the restaurant with the porters, I'll pay you hourly for the next 30 days and commit to getting sober. I'll give you a chance. I'm not gonna let you work in the restaurant as a bartender, but I'll give you a shot, you know, to try. Because I told him, I was like, I was crying. I was like, Frank, man, it's the only thing tethering me to like life. You know, my job. Please. And I said, I swear I'll get sober. And then that was that, man. I haven't had a drink or a drug since then. And he let me eventually work back in the restaurant. And I met those two guys that kind of came in and taught me this life. And what these guys did for me was I knew a girl who I was a barback at a nightclub on Bleecker Street when I was like 16, 17. This woman, Karen, was a bartender and like, like goddess beautiful, right? I had such a big crush on her when I was like 16, 17, and she thought I was the cutest kid ever. So she was always like flirty and, you know, having a good time with me. But she was kind of like this like older sister vibe. And whenever I was down and out, I'd call her and she'd like take me in. She'd let me crash on her couch. Anyway, I knew that she had gotten sober and I called her up And I was like, hey, I'm ready. Like, I'm in a bad way. I'm ready. I need help. And that was, you know, yeah, that phone call changed my life. She said, hey, I'm going to send over my boyfriend, who was one of those two guys. And he told me to go to this meeting. I went to the meeting. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. And then he came to meet me and he sat with me and I was like, dude, this guy is cool. Like, I can't believe— like, they're like, wait, I could probably— I could do that. I could do what he's doing, you know, because he talked my language. He looked my— he looked my, you know, he looked the vibe that I was like, okay, I could— this guy's not some fucking— you're not going to lecture me about like what I've been doing wrong, you know. He's going to listen to what I have to say. And he did listen to me for hours and, uh, and he wrote this plan for me. And the plan was basically Simple, kind of how I live my life today. But he was like, look, this is what I want you to do. I want you to wake up as early as you can in the morning. As soon as you wake up, I want you to roll out of bed, and I want you to drop on your knees and ask God for help. He's like, I don't give a shit if you know about God, you care about God, you believe in God, you don't believe in God. I don't care about any of that. You need to know that help is what you need, and starting your day by asking for it from something that you don't know is going to be powerful for you. You need help, kid, and this is the way you're gonna start asking for it. And then right after you ask God for help, you're gonna stand up, you're gonna make your bed, you're gonna walk into the bathroom, you're gonna brush your teeth, wash your face, take a piss, put on your contacts, and then you're gonna put on some sneakers, and you're immediately going to get outside, and you're gonna either walk around the block, run around the block, run 10 miles, I don't give a fuck what you do, "but I want you to move your body first thing in the morning. And then as soon as you get back, you're gonna have a big bowl of oatmeal. You can add whatever you want to it, but oatmeal is the easiest, healthiest, most satiating, and accessible thing that you can start your day with, getting into this new lifestyle. And then once you eat your oatmeal, you're gonna go to this meeting, 10 o'clock." Told me exactly where it was. And he's like, "You're gonna raise your hand, you're gonna say who you are and where you're from, and who you are and why you're there." And then right when that's done, you're gonna book it down to the gym, and I'm gonna teach you a martial art. And it's gonna hurt, but you're gonna love it. And then once you're done training with me, or just training in general, you're gonna have chicken and broccoli, you're gonna take a nap, you're gonna go to work, you're gonna have chicken and broccoli, and you're gonna go to bed as early as you can. Right before you go to bed, you're gonna drop on your knees, you're gonna thank God for the day, and pass out. And that's your life. Rinse and repeat. I'll be there with you. I'll do it with you every day. And I was like, I was like, wow, you know, like, honest to God, man, that's how I live my life today. I've been doing basically everything he said to me 20 years ago today. And I just put the right foot in front of the left. And what I'll say about, you know, look, do I— I think I have a real— I think I have leverage in my life because I'm sober. I really believe that. You know, I'm gonna be 44 in a few months. I feel like I'm fucking 25. And I bang with the best of them. And I know, you know, people will ask me, "Oh, like, what is it?" You know, like, "What are you doing for— What are you eating? What are you training?" Really what I want to say is I don't drink or do drugs, man, ever. I just don't. And most people, whether it's casual or not, and I pass no judgment. Everybody I know drinks. I have a sober community, but my wife drinks. Most of my friends where I live drink. I got no issue with it. But I will say that I live a sober life. I face— every single situation head-on. When I want something, I fucking get it because I attack it, because I've got nothing standing in my way. And when it gets really, really hard, I get really, really powerful and strong because I just know the only thing I have to do is get back up, period. Like, it doesn't matter if I fail. It doesn't matter. And, and I also know, because now I've been doing this for a long time I'm gonna create no matter what. So like, if I try something and it doesn't work, I don't cry over spilled milk. I'm like, I'm putting the gloves on. I'm like, all right, let's go, who's next? And I think that I have the ability to do that because I've been able to commit to not drinking and doing drugs. And then commit to fitness and nutrition, and then commit to mindset eventually, and then that built confidence in me. And then the only thing that I can say builds absolute courage is the path of commitment to confidence, because confidence is what is needed for courage. And, you know, they write books about courageous people. And so I'm not saying people are going to write books about me.

You'll have a book one day.

But I am saying that, you know, I believe that the 3 C's— commitment, confidence, and courage— are— I think anybody can do it. And I think that there's typically a turning point where it happens for someone. And like anything and everything great takes courage. So like, what's the path? You know?

What was the self-talk like in the early days of that journey when you had this mentor, if you will, that was telling you, here's the regiment you're going to follow? There's obviously moments of doubt that creeped into your mind. I'm sure there's moments where you're just not sure what to do next. Like, how did you— what was that self-talk like to continue on that journey knowing that it's what you needed to be doing?

I mean, I'll say that like And I really do believe that I was very lucky, 'cause I found someone very early on that I really respected and I really wanted respect from. And from the sober people that I met early on and the Muay Thai people I met early on, I had like two very committed communities of people that supported the shit out of me. Everybody at the Muay Thai gym knew my situation because Marcus was like not afraid to tell them where I was at. Because when they— when he brought me in there, they were like, what the fuck are you doing? This dude? Um, and he told them, and they all were just like, we're gonna work with this guy, you know? And so I think I remember in September that year. It's like one of the most fond memories I have. There's a couple of memories that I can point to. It was obviously hard, right? Like I had given up my, I'd taken off the blanket in sub-zero weather, right? Like that blanket kept me warm all the time, even though it was killing me, you know? But I just ripped it off. And so I was fucking cold. And I was like a raw nerve, you know? But I did have the support systems. I remember in September, towards the end of September, I was sober, you know, almost 2 months at that point, and I was in my apartment on 5th Street and 2nd Avenue, and it was hot as fuck in the city. And for years, I like didn't have an air conditioner, you know what I mean? There was no AC. It was like, lived in this old tenement in this funky-ass apartment. And I never like bought, went out and bought an AC. Like I just didn't give a shit. I would just like, I barely slept and when I did it was just like, it was like blackout, you know? So I remember buying myself an air conditioner and I was on the floor of my living room in the apartment and I was like, I wasn't like curled up in a ball like crying, but I was like lying on the floor kind of like just like there. And I was like, oh my God. I'm fucking free. I'm free. I am not held back by this thing anymore. Like, I'm— my body's changing, my mind is changing, my confidence is changing. I am free for real. I could do whatever I want. Like, I've got nothing in my way. I could really do whatever I want. And that was just sort of a moment. And then another moment that I remember, because with Muay Thai I ultimately ended up, you know, and also Marcus, you know, told me that he wanted me to get out and start running in the morning. It began, it started with walking, obviously. I wasn't running in those days, but like eventually I started to run. And I remember I used to do this run eventually called the, I coined it the triple bypass. One thing to know, like, if you're an addict or an alcoholic, you know what it means to be loyal. You understand commitment and dedication to the drugs and the alcohol, like, enormous, right? Like, you will do anything it takes to get high or drunk. Anything, if you're truly an alcoholic or an addict. Doesn't matter what it is. And so you strip away the drugs and the alcohol, that ability to commit, dedicate yourself, and be loyal is still there. Yeah, you know it, it's there, right? You've, you've been, you've been committed, you've been committed for the last 10 years. So once, once he told me to start doing these things, I, I was just like, okay, like I did. And so I, I started running, and running became a big part of my story in the early days. And I remember It was like a beautiful day in the fall, like perfect weather, like 60 degrees, New York City. And I used to run from Second Avenue, Fifth Street down to Delancey over the Williamsburg Bridge and back. And I remember coming back over the Williamsburg Bridge and they had kind of just finished, like the— they just finished some construction on the bridge and It was like a bluebird day, and I was like running, and I was like, oh my God, dude, you're taking this for granted, man. Like, you're fucking running over the bridge. Like, look up. Like, you're running over the bridge. Dude, are you kidding me right now? Like, is this really you? Is this your life? And so yes, there were definitely moments of Doubt and fear, of course. Fucking scared. But the stars really aligned for me when I was ready to take the plunge into a different life. And I found these communities that really were down to support me. And I listened and I did what they told me to do, you know what I mean? And then I just began to build my life, which is my life today. You know, dude, I'm like, I've built 3 businesses, exited 2 successfully, run multiple marathons, competed in Muay Thai, became a pro bodybuilder, married the woman of my dreams, have 2 unbelievable sons that love me, and I love them more than anything on the planet. I'm living a— I'm living a wild dream life.

What's your why?

What's my why? Uh, I am I am a hunter, like a born hunter, I think. I am driven by connecting with human beings, and I have found for me, like, peel back the onion all the way, other people are what get me going, just connecting with people. I am truly a human. You ask me my superpower, I say, you put me in Watts, California at 3 o'clock in the morning or the White House, I am going to make friends and I'm going to make them fast. And that's what I do. And that's what drives me. So really my why is connecting with humans at scale. I love people. I love people. I love connecting with people. I could talk to anyone. My wife hates it. Hates it, um, because I literally will like spark up a conversation with the, the clerk at the grocery store, and like we're talking about shit, and John is like, can you please just like, please, you know, I just do this on your own time, bro. Oh my God. But yeah, you know, my why is connecting with humans, man. I, I'm, I'm, uh, I love, I love that. That makes me so happy.

Yeah, the, uh, I'm just like sitting here listening and it's in a strange way like the level of— because you obviously don't know that much about me, like we just got connected, just met, but like The level of similarity is— and we, you know, we're like 65 episodes into this thing, and the level of similarity is like on another level from my lens, knowing myself and learning about you in terms of like my why, the things that I do. Like, I'm not sober and didn't have the same, same stories you in that regard, but like stopped drinking 2 years ago. Um, I know you also have a podcast. Like, the, the fitness, wellness, connecting with people, like, that is my, my aura as well, right? Like you saw on the roof We have a sauna, cold plunge. What I don't think I told you is we have this community called Founder Wellness where we host cold plunge and coffee hangouts like 3 to 4 times a week. We've had like 200 founders come over in the last month and a half.

Sick.

Um, because I also get energized by people around me, and I think the biggest thing is in a lot of ways when you find this vision and this path of the things that you want to do relentlessly and the things that matter to you, you can feel like a misfit in certain crowds if there's people that just don't understand and don't get like your why, like what you do or why you do. The thing is, you start to become more successful and you start to become more laser focused on the things that are important to you. I, I think there— it becomes more challenging to find people who can connect with you on as deep of a level. You could, you could go talk to anyone on the street and find conversation and make conversation, but to meet someone who understands at your core, like, why are you still building more businesses if you, if you've exited two? Like, why are you still fighting people when you've already done the marathons, you've already done this competitively. Like, I think a lot of people are like, dude, don't you want to just kind of chill and hang out? Like, you've made it. But when you meet people who share that same passion with you of just like, it's all about the chase, it's not about the destination, and it's about challenging yourself to be better all the time, you just find like such a beauty in that. So I think one of the, one of the questions I have for you is like, what do you think about momentum and habit stacking? As you, as you think about, like, obviously it's a huge part of your life. I think there's people listening would love to hear that. But like, you're someone, from my understanding, who have just— you've just taken this concept of momentum and habit stacking from like the day that you got sober to like fast forward 20 years, and you have this like aura and energy about you where it does not seem like you're slowing down anytime soon.

Well, uh, my life is defined by the decisions I make. Every day. Everyone's life is, right? Life is essentially a string of choices, and, you know, like, some are totally non-intentional, right? Like, if my wife wouldn't have walked into the restaurant that I was working at the day that I— that she did, like, my life would have been very, very different. If the guys that she was with chose not to leave early and, you know, all left together, like, I wouldn't have met my wife, right? And I wouldn't have kids, you know. Habit stacking. So habits have dictated my life. They almost killed me because I had some really bad ones. And when I was able to replace the bad ones with good ones, they've made me the guy I am today. I believe every single day, and I still believe this every single day, we get a shot. We get a shot to put real numbers on the board. Yesterday is fucking history, man. There is not a single human being on the planet that has ever been able to go back and change a decision they made yesterday. Tomorrow isn't guaranteed, right? Like, who the fuck knows, you know? Like, today is the day, and how you start typically paints a picture of what the rest of the day is going to look like and how you finish. You know, like if you're— the Olympics are on, you know, like somebody gets a bad start off the line, very, very small chance they're going to finish that race in first, second, or third place. Very small chance, right? They get a hot start off that line, they got a shot. And I look at my day like that, you know, like I believe in pouring foundation every single morning and You know, back in the day, years and years, hundreds of years ago, like, there wasn't cement. They weren't like pouring these, like, bedrock, you know, these rock-hard foundations. They were building on dirt. You know, I have a house from those days. I have a house where half of the house is built on dirt. And eventually, we had to— we found one of the posts was about a foot and a half sunk into the ground. And had we not found that, the house could have fallen on us, right? I pour foundation every morning, man. I have a pretty— I've actually taken a little break from my super intense morning routine just to take a break from it. But I believe in wins, and we're wired to want to win. I don't mean want to win the race. I don't mean want to win the money, although that's part of it, right? I mean, just win, feel good, right? Like, when we win, we feel good. That's the truth. And when we lose, we typically learn, and a lot of us, like, don't like that. Um, I've actually learned to really appreciate it, and I kind of thrive in the lost days. But I have used habits in the morning as a way for me to just stack fucking tons of wins before I get out. By 6:30 in the morning, typically, when I'm like in my ideal situation at home, um, not traveling, you know, by 6:30 in the morning, man, I've won like 15 times.

All right, I'm intrigued. You're waking up— what time are you waking up, and what does a day in the life look like?

So I'll, I'll give you— I'll give you the, like, my ideal scenario, which is what I do probably 75% of the time. And then I'll give you the non-negotiables. I'll start with the non-negotiables. So for me, non-negotiable is I typically wake up at 5:15 every morning. The first thing I do every single morning is smile. And I know that sounds cheesy and corny, and it's actually really uncomfortable but super effective. So I smile for like 30 seconds, and I go right into gratitude. I'm grateful for the wife sleeping next to me. I'm grateful for my kids sleeping down the hall. I'm grateful for my dogs. I'm grateful for this house. I'm grateful for the sun. I'm I'm grateful for the fucking cold plunge. I'm grateful for all these shit. I just go through a list real quick, boom. Get my day started with positivity, and I get up with intention. And I throw my feet down on the ground, and I very quietly sneak out of my bedroom because my wife is sleeping, and I make my way downstairs. I go into the bathroom, I take a piss, I wash my face, I brush my teeth. I floss now, I added flossing to that. Wow.

Big disruption.

You know, believe it or not, not a lot of people are doing that. And then I pray, and I have a real prayer practice. It's gone way beyond asking God for help for me. I have a thing that I do. And I'm not a religious dude. I don't subscribe to any sort of secular thing. And I've got no problem with it, but it's just not my thing. And I pray, and then I go right into push-ups. And I do 50 push-ups, and then I go right into— stretching. So I'll do down dog, up dog for, you know, 2 to 3 minutes, and then I do cat-cow for 2 to 3 minutes. And, uh, on— and that's my non-negotiable. That's, that's, that's like, no matter where I am in the world, I am doing that. And then I'll drink a bunch of water. I typically throw an element into it. I got a few other things that I throw into it just if when I'm home. And, um, and then I kind of like get my day going, you know what I mean? And that's sort of like my, hey, this this is like, you gotta get this done. By the way, at the end of that, I feel like I've accomplished a lot of shit already, you know? The ideal situation is wake up, smile, sneak out of the room, make my way down to the bathroom, take a piss, brush my teeth. I don't wash my face in this one. I splash water on my face, and then I go right into the guest bedroom where I've got a red light panel. And I sit and I do my red light and I meditate for 20 minutes. When I'm done with my meditation, then I do my prayers, my push-ups, and I call it my poses, the P— the 3 Ps: prayers, push-ups, poses, where I do my stretching. And after I'm done with that, I go into the kitchen and I make my little 30-ounce of water concoction, and I head into the infrared sauna, and I sit in there and I read for 30 minutes, and then I hang over my legs for 3 minutes to get a long, good hamstring stretch, because I got super tight hamstrings. And then I walk across to the cold plunge, which is right across from my infrared sauna. And I sit in the cold plunge for anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes. And then on my way out, I stop in the mirror, give myself a little look in the mirror, and say, "You're a good dude, Mike. Today's the day. Go get 'em." And then I walk out into the kitchen. At that point, my wife and kids are just getting up. And I feel unstoppable. And I'm just all dad, all husband from 6:30 to like 8:00 when either I take my kids to school or my wife takes them to school. Once I'm done taking the kids to school, I'll probably get like about an hour and a half to 2 hours of work done. That's like my first little tranche of work in the morning where I'm just like plowing and making sure that I'm being proactive, not just fucking responding to emails. And then I train. And so I train typically from like 9:30, 10:00 to 11:30, 12:00. And then at 12:00, I eat. And I typically have my meal 1 either before I'm training if I'm going to do a heavy lift, which is my company, or I'll have it post-training if I'm doing a lighter lift. And then I have another 3-hour block of work where I'm giving my team the ability to just schedule whatever calls or meetings we want between 12:00 and 3:00. If I don't have anything, which is rare, I'm just like getting after emails, trying to catch up. I mean, the email Slack game is, as you know, it's fucking heavy. And it's like I could sit and I could do it for 24 hours straight and just not stop. So I give myself that time block. It's very important for me to have sections of my day carved out. At 4 o'clock, so that's from like 12 to 3 or 4, at 4 o'clock I walk. And I typically do a ruck, and that's when I am taking in some content that I want to appreciate. I am totally happy to take work calls on those rucks. So, you know, we got— we all got caught in this, like, has to be a Zoom, has to be a Google Meet, uh, thing. And I was like, nah, like, before the Zooms and the Google Meets, there was calls, only calls.

Yeah, I love that, I love that.

So I was like, hey, like, you You know, if I don't— if you don't absolutely need to see my face, like, I'm— I have my camera on most of the time, especially in that 12 to 3, 4 arena. But, uh, you know, in that 4 to 5, I'm just taking phone calls. Or if there's no phone calls, I'm just listening to some good content. And then from 5 to 5:30, 5:45, I do my finishing touches. And then boom, I'm in the— in the car back home. I don't take any work calls. I'm not fucking— I'm just listening to some good music and getting myself prepped to transition from like intense work dude to husband dad. And typically I get— I pull into my driveway at around 5:55, takes me about 20 minutes to get home. And I actually do this little breathwork transition because I— about 2 years, 2 and a half years ago, um, I was coming into the house and I had my phone in my hand and my older son, who was 7 at the time, he's 9 now, was like, Dad. And I just got into the house and I'm, I'm like trying to finish up an email or a text or something. And he's like, Dad, Dad, Dad. And I was like, don't you see I'm doing something? And then I was like, oh my God, like, there's only one thing that kid wants in life. One, only one thing. He doesn't give a shit about my business. He doesn't give a shit about my job. He doesn't give a shit about a house, a car, a fucking bank account, stocks, fucking shares, equity, nothing. He doesn't care about money. He doesn't care about anything. He only cares about his dad's and mom's attention. He wants my attention. When he calls my name, he wants me to respond to him. And I just fucking didn't. And I caught myself there, and I was like, oh my God, Mike, how many times has that happened, dude? That's it, done. So at 5:55, pull into the driveway, turn the car off halfway up the driveway, sit, close my eyes. I do this double inhale, long exhale breathwork thing for 5 or 10 rounds. Really get back to baseline, it really works. I learned it on Huberman. And then I'm like almost like in a, I'm like in like a kind of like a very like almost like tranquil state. And I calmly and peacefully turn my phone into airplane mode and walk into my house, put my phone face down, don't look at it for 3 hours until the kids go down. And typically dinner's on the table at 6, my wife is super punctual. We eat, we chill, we play games, we talk, we do rosebud, thorn, and seed, which is like something that we've been doing even though as they're getting older, they're starting to think it's a little corny. But we do that, rosebud, thorn, and seed. We go around the table. And then I put the boys down. We go back and forth every other night. Talking through that day, it's like I'm so lucky and blessed. I really am, man. You know, I used to think that it was so important for me to work 14 hours a day. I know we're on a podcast about entrepreneurship and doing hard things in, in a bunch of different ways, and I really used to wear it on my sleeve when I founded the Meatball Shop. Like, man, if I wasn't putting in at least 12 hours, like, that was like baseline. If I wasn't doing that, I'd walk out of, out of work feeling guilty. And I used to think that I need to work at least 7 days a week you know, just because I'm the fucking founder and I need to fucking wear that weight. I work like 7 hours a day, sometimes less, sometimes more. And I get such efficiency in my life through doing that. I've got an amazing team that do that too. I don't expect them to answer an email if I send it at 8:30 at night. I don't expect them to answer it at 8:40. I do expect them to answer it at 9:00 the next morning, but I've lived, I've learned to truly have a balance in my life and understand that, man, if there's a fire, you better believe that I'm the first one in. But if there's no fire, it can get done tomorrow because I just know. Like, if I don't draw a boundary in my life, I can kiss my family life goodbye. And my family is everything for me. I'll fucking put a match to any business right now if I had to— if I had to sacrifice my fitness and my health and my wellness, tomorrow, shut her down. If I had to sacrifice my family, not even a— not even a question, you know. 2 years into Meatball Shop, Um, I, I honestly, maybe I had one day off, and my days were insanely long. I would get to the restaurant at like 8:30 in the morning, and I wouldn't leave the restaurant until sometimes 4:30 in the morning. And I was getting very little sleep, and I was married already. I got married in 2007, I opened up Meatball Shop in 2010, and after 2 years of that, my wife she was so supportive. But she took me aside and she was like, Mike, I love you, man. I love you so much, but this isn't sustainable. Like, I can't do this. This is too much. I don't even know you. I haven't seen you. I haven't had a dinner with you outside of me coming to the restaurant. It's like, this can't happen. Like, and I needed that kick in the ass. And I said to my business partner, hey man, I'm gonna lose my marriage. I'm sorry, like, I'm not working on the weekends anymore. I'm not, I'm not doing it. I don't know how you want to deal with that, you know. I don't know if that's something that you want to fight me over, but I'm just telling you that, like, I'm married, you're not, and it's way more important to me than this. And this is absolutely important to me, so I'm asking for your support, you know. And he supported that. And then, uh, we actually— we rented a house upstate, and we— and I said to her, because I was very transparent, and I was like, you know how much I love you and how important you are to me. I want to live the rest of my life with you, but I'm gonna be honest. Like, if we are in New York City on the weekends, the busiest part of my life for work, it's going to be ungodly— it's going to be unbelievably impossible for me to either not be in there or thinking about it all the time. And if I'm thinking about it all the time, I might as well not be here. So we got to get the hell out of Dodge, like, we got to leave the city. And so we rented a house upstate, we went every weekend, and that was kind of like the beginning of me sort of understanding that, like, you can be sharp in business, sharp in fitness, sharp in family if you draw hard and fast boundaries.

So there's, there's two things I want to delve into out of what you just said, and the first one is this topic of having boundaries, right? Like, I admittedly, I don't. I work around the clock all the time. It's definitely an issue. I'm curious for you, was there a moment in time where you made this switch, and would you credit like the pre— prior success you had to allowing yourself to make that switch? Because I think there's, in my opinion, there's levels to this, right? Like, are you already successful and then you're adding boundaries? It's like, how many tech entrepreneurs do we see who are all about fitness and wellness, like, after they destroyed their body for a decade and made a billion dollars? Yeah, right. So like, I, as you know, I'm 28 years old. This is my, my first company. We're 2 and a half years into it. I'm grinding, like, I'm working hard, and I love it and I enjoy it, but I've always told myself, like, live the next few years of your life like most people won't, so you can live the rest of your life like most people can't. And so I'm curious, when you look back at your 28-year-old self, like, do you regret the, you know, that effort that you put into the things you're doing? Or would you say that a lot of that you exerted is actually the reason that you can have boundaries in your life you do today with the family?

And 1,000%, like, I needed to do that. It was, it was necessary to do that. And I had a supportive wife that like was like, okay, go for it. Like, I know what you got to do. And but, and but, um, there is a limit, right? Like, I'm just here to tell you, no one is performing unless you're a fucking Navy SEAL trained specifically to look to to fight without sleep. No one is performing at 100 when they're working 15 hours a day, 6, 7 days a week. They're not. I'm— I don't care who you are, I just— you're just not. Now sometimes it's just required, you got to do it, so you're going to just have to, you know, succumb to the 75% of you, right? Like, this is what it is, it's needed right now. And I would argue to say that like You know, chances are, had I not done that, I wouldn't be sitting here. That's the truth. So yes, do I think you gotta— you, you've got to put in time like that? Um, 100%. I do. But I also think that, like, you should— maybe someone that's sitting here listening to this podcast right now thinking, damn, like, the only seed that I want to plant is be intentional and be cognizant of it. No, like, all right, I'm going for this. I'm taking the leap. I got 3 years in front of me where I am going to bleed. I'm gonna fucking bleed, and I'm gonna let everyone around me know that just because I'm a bloody mess doesn't mean I'm dying, you know? Like, I'm gonna— I'm gunning for this. Support me. Don't hate me. Uh, but if you continue to, to feel like you're pushing a 1,000-pound boulder up Mount Everest, that's why I say just be cognizant of what you're doing, because sometimes, like, that storm is never going to end, you know. And so I'm not saying give up, I'm not saying throw in the towel, I'm just saying be intentional and be cognizant of the decisions that you're making. I know a lot of people in the world of foundership that, um, just hold on tight and don't want to let go for the wrong reasons, you know. And like, I, I had a conversation with a guy yesterday who I coach, who's an amazing dude, and he's also in the restaurant biz. I have like this very— I, I like take on a couple of guys in the beginning of the year to coach for 3 to 4 months. And, um, you know, the way I have conducted— and sometimes I've been steamrolled, but the most of the time it's actually worked out for me— I do my diligence when I bring people into the team. I take my time in hiring, and I fucking have made mistakes, there's no doubt. But I really do put in the time to bet the right people. And once they're in, I give them my absolute trust, 100%. You have got it all. Like, I am— I'm going— I, I didn't hire you to do your job. I have no interest in doing your job. Zero. Like, I want you to come in here, be a part of this thing, fucking make decisions, ask for forgiveness, or high-five when you win. I give you my trust in your specific arena, department. It's your job to hold on to it, right? But I also know a lot of other people that are, you know, in, in an entrepreneurial role that don't do that, that hire people and then make them earn their trust. And that's— it's an awful way to live because an awful way, in my opinion, to conduct because you're constantly micromanaging. That person never feels like they're getting their feet settled into the sand. They're always on their toes. They're not performing. I'd much rather give somebody all my trust and have them lose it than have them earn it and never perform out the gate. And so I give them all my trust. I say, you've got autonomy, you can make these decisions. I do not want to hold your hand. I do— I am a bad micromanager, so you don't want me micromanaging you. And if I feel like I have to start micromanaging you, you should just know. So what I do always in the hiring process, and I know I'm kind of going off on a tangent here, but maybe it's valuable for someone. Whenever I hire somebody, I do a 30, 60, 90, and we meet 30 days in, 60 days in, 90 days in. If you've got a few dings on 30 days, you can plan to pack a bag. Like if there's a few dings on deliverables that you've agreed to, in a scope of work, whether you're a contractor or an employee, if you've got a few dings in that first 30 days, I've given you full trust, all the tools. It's, it's not going to work most likely, but I give you 30 days to get to 60. If you turn it around at 60, you got a shot. Um, but if you don't, you don't, you know, and I feel like that has been so helpful, right? Like somebody that on the day they get hired, 30 days from that day, they get a review. 60 days from that, 30 days they get a review, and then 90 days they get a review. And, um, it's just like, I just like lay it out and I'm like, hey— and I'm very upfront too. As soon as they get hired, I'm like, hey, you got 30 days, let's go. You know, like, I'm gonna let you do you. I'm not gonna say shit. I'm gonna let you do you. You show up to our team, team meetings and our stand-ups with what you got. I'm not gonna ask you for shit. I'm not gonna check on you all the time. And if you don't, we're a startup. No one, no one's coming for you. No one's going to give it to you.

I have the same exact philosophy, and we've actually talked about it a lot on this podcast, of this idea of giving trust on day zero and making them give you a reason to not trust them, or to just let the default be like, we have this trust, keep going.

Totally.

Um, the other thing I want to talk about with you, because you alluded to this, but the importance of the environment that you put yourself in every day to be successful. So you talk about how you left New York because you couldn't fathom being here on the weekends because it would distract you with your work. How has this move that you've made into the countryside, is the way you described it to me before we hit record, how has that affected your, your day-to-day life? And I think the second piece of that question is, how has that impacted you still feeling like you're, you're in it, although it's kind of an illusion because you're really not? Physically?

Great question. So I— we started going upstate in 2012. That's when we like rented a little house up there, but I didn't move upstate until 2020. So we rented a house in 2012 and we used it like most weekends. And I said to Donna, I was like, this is the best decision we've ever made to get out of the city on the weekends. Like, let's go buy a house now. Because I said you know, if we, like, if we go buy a house and we don't use it, that, that would suck. Let's rent, see if we use it, and then think about buying something. Anyway, we bought a house in 2013, and, um, we, you know, we've been— we, we use it on the weekends. And then, you know, the, the global crisis hit in 2020. My kids were super young. We were living in Brooklyn. And there's— there, one was 2, one was 4. Their schools shut down and they went to like virtual, and they started in September that next year. We didn't— we, we, we, we basically spent the whole summer upstate, and we weren't planning on staying there. We were, you know, we were kind of playing it by ear, but then we got note that in September it was going to be all virtual. And I'm like, you can't put a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old in virtual school, like, you know what I mean? Like, A, I'm trying like not to have these kids stare at screens all day, but B, like, they don't— no one's engaging on a fucking—

they're gonna have no social skills.

I'm like, so for us, a mile down the road was a Waldorf school, so I could literally ride my kids to like, take like, ride bikes to school in the morning. And the whole entire 2021, 2022, when most schools in New York were like plexiglassed out, these kids were out in the woods building fucking fires and, you know, platforms and structures. And, and, and, you know, my sons just became these like outdoorsmen, and the whole entire school was outside all winter long, all the whole year. It was like they had pods in the woods.

Yeah, I've never heard of this before.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's amazing. And so, and, and the community was, was awesome. I mean, it was definitely like a whimsical kind of vibe for kids. Like, you know, I had to like You know, I, I've got two sons. Like, I want nothing more for those two to be savage athletes, you know what I mean? But like, I also know, like, hey, everybody's got their own thing. Both of my sons happen to be like more passionate about creativity right now, um, and so I'm like, cool, whatever. Um, but you know, we sent him to this school, it was amazing. How has it affected my, you know, my life? I, I will, I will never live in New York City again. Ever until maybe I'm like, maybe when I'm old, you know, when I'm like, I want the convenience of the great restaurants in walking distance, you know. Community here is, in my opinion, for, for like the years that I, I mean, I spent my whole life here, it's kind of, um, it's a little fake. People, you hang out with people because they're there. There's not an enormous amount of fabric to the relationships and substance. Where I live now, we invite people over for dinner every weekend. People are coming into my house, I'm cooking dinner for them, we're having awesome conversations, we're building real friendships and real relationships. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen here. I don't want to, you know, I'm not trying to like paint this bad picture of New York City and culture and community, but it's just different there for me. And I feel like I've really settled in, and I didn't know that that would be possible. I'm a New York City kid through and through. I wore that shit on my sleeve. I believe New York gave me the grit that I have. I always said that I was going to raise my kids in the city because I wanted them to have a similar grit. Now living in upstate New York, you know, 2 and a half hours— 2 and a half hours out of the city, like I can be here in a blink of an eye. I can get the energy shot that I need. I come down every couple weeks, so I stay typically 2 to 3 days. Like, on that second day, I'm like, get me out of here. I want— I want— I wake up every morning, I'm like, I've got space, man. I've got space. I mean, I got very lucky when I bought my house. I bought my house, you know, whatever it was, 12 years ago. And I have 55 acres. I've got like a compound. Oh, I've got like barrel saunas and cold plunges and pool and ponds and, you know, dirt bike paths. And, you know, like, it's crazy, you know. I like— I would never— I would never live back here. I mean, you'd have to, you know, like, unless, you know, when I sell Creatures of Habit, um, you know, maybe we buy something, you know, back in the city just to have a spot. But man, no, like, I, I don't need to. I've spent— I spent years in the mix here, you know. I was in the restaurant biz for a long time in a successful way, developed amazing relationships. And whenever I come back, I can always hop into those relationships. But most of the time, I honestly come down in the city, take care of business You know, I have a hotel that I stay at in Williamsburg. Like, I get my stuff done. Maybe I have dinner with a couple of close friends and then I'm out, you know? Like, I really do feel like I'm living my best life there. And I have a real— like, I feel it feels right.

You know, the comment you made that's really interesting to me about how, like, relationships I would say, to paraphrase it, it's harder to find real relationships in New York City. They do exist, but there is definitely a lot of like transactional fake bullshit going on in this city for sure. And like, people who get here for the first time who don't understand that usually learn the hard way. I would tell you that for me, the number one filter that has allowed that to change or to be more aware of it was when I stopped drinking, right? So like, I dropped— not even dropped, I just drifted from so many people when I stopped drinking because I realized that a relationship was grounded in like, what bar are we going to, or like, where going out.

Totally.

It was like, you don't actually know much about me, and I don't really know that much about you. But it took me to stop drinking to actually realize that we don't really know that much about each other. And then the second thing, which I think we have in common, is I've used different activities that I like, like cold plunge and sauna, as a means to community. Because odds are, if there are people who are showing up to do these things, that's a commonality that we have that I probably had with the people who liked to drink. When I would meet someone at 3 AM at a bar instead of at 10 AM on a Saturday with a coffee in my hand sitting in a cold plunge. Right. With that being said, I 100% agree that I don't want to raise a family in New York. I think, you know, I'm in my late 20s. I'm in my build phase right now. I'm having fun. I think it's a good place to be for this. But I, I do really admire like the way that you've gone about that progression in your life. Um, look, I know we're coming up on time. I want to give you a chance to at least explain your business. I think to me, when it takes a full episode, before you even get to talk about the business, to me is usually like a sign of probably a good conversation. But I'd be remiss to not let you use this platform to talk about what you're doing because you're up to some amazing things.

Yeah. So I'll just give you like the quick sort of like the quick and dirty on the, on my business life. So I, you know, got sober, ended up going, going to culinary school. I actually knocked on Frank's door, who was my boss at the time. That really was the catalyst or one of the, one of the key components for me making the decision to get sober. And I was 25 years old, and I had— at that point, I'd been sober almost 2 years, and I knew, like, I was going to open my own spot. I just knew that that was going to be the case. And so I said, hey dude, can you sit down and have a cup of coffee with me? And he was like, yeah, yeah, come over. So I sat down with him and I was like, Frank, I really want to— I really want to open my own restaurant. I'd been working for him for almost 5 years at that point. And he's like, ooh, Mikey. And I was like, I'm just coming to tell you, man, I really want to do that, you know. He's like, man, I just don't know if you have it in you, you know. He's like, you're newly— so like, you're newly into this new life. Like, I just— just be easy, you know. I just don't know if it's— if it's the right thing for you. And that lit a fire under my ass like no one else, man. And I was like, all right, okay. And, you know, we talked for a little bit, and then as I was leaving, and he was like, but 'If it was something that you really wanted to take seriously, you should go to culinary school.' And I was like, done. I got home, fucking researched culinary school. Couldn't afford the Culinary Institute of America, also didn't want to leave the city for 4 years. But the French Culinary Institute was in the city, and I can get the culinary degree in 2 years. And I was like, let me, let me see what the deal is. So figured it out, applied for financial aid, got it, went to culinary school. About 14 months in, uh, found out that Cornell was partnering with the FCI on a truncated version of their hotel hospitality program, which is the best in the country. And I was like, oh my God, I'm here, like, I gotta do that, you know? And that was like a year-long process, or maybe 15 months. I was like, I gotta apply for that. So Apply for that, got the scholarship, finished that, and I was like 27 when I was done. 20, almost 20, yeah, 27. And I spent 6 months writing a business plan for Meatball Shop. And I'd been working at this restaurant now for 7 years, something like that. And it was a real regular spot. These guys have watched me get hired as a kid, like 20 years old, be a complete fucking maniac, but they loved that maniac. Get sober, get— find a wife, get married, go to culinary school. They'd be like— these guys literally watched my life, you know. And I wrote a business plan and I dropped it in front of all the regulars, and they wrote me— 14 of them wrote me a $25,000 check each.

Wow.

Yeah. And so with that money, I, you know— and I, I put— I had like $20,000 saved up. My partner Dan had $20,000 saved up. And we raised just under $400 grand, opened up the meatball shop in the Lower East Side, smashed it. Didn't know what was— had literally no idea, but like crushed. And that first year, you know, we had, we had, uh, projected $1.2 million in sales and we did $4. We paid our investors back in 6 months. One of those investors was, you know, a really sort of smart, wealthy guy, and he was like, look, You get gold. I want more. Here's $3.5 million. Like, let's go scale this thing. And so we opened up 5 more restaurants in that. But, but, you know, over the first 18 months, I mean, we were on Good Morning America, The Today Show multiple times, cooking meatballs with Jay Leno on his show, Jimmy Fallon, Chelsea Handler. Like, it was nuts, man. We were all over the place. They made a fucking TV show about us. Like, it was crazy. And, um, about 4 years in, Dan and I were butting heads. We couldn't see eye to eye. There was a lot of money involved. And, you know, I just knew that, like, if we kept on going down this path, it was just gonna affect everything else at Meatball Shop. And I really felt like I had what it took to open up a second concept, and I wanted to see if I, if I was like a one-trick pony or if I was a serial entrepreneur. And so I said, guys, I'm gonna sell you some equity. Let's find somebody to take my seat, and, uh, I'll take a seat on the board, I'll advise, whatever. But like, Dan and I are going to kill each other. It's not going to work out well, and I'm happy to like do this. And that was after I could not convince them to— we had, we had a real hard offer for the business at like, uh, obscene multiple, obscene multiple, like a 30x multiple.

And they said no.

I could— I, I, I— Daniel, we had 2 stores that were like in development, and we had 5 stores at the time, 2 stores in development, and these guys offered us $45 million. And I was like, dude, you and I literally started this business with $20,000, 20 G's. It's, it's been 3 and a half years. These guys want to buy 60% of the company. You and I will still own a large percentage of the business, and they're going to throw a ton of money on the balance sheet to scale it. Like, what? How could you not think this is the deal? And he's like, because there's 2 stores in development in 12 months. If they think it's worth $45 now, it'll be worth $55 in, in a year. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, but like, tomorrow doesn't exist, dude. Like, today's the day. Let's go. And I just couldn't convince him. And the board was made up of his brother his brother's best friend, his brother's best friend's best friend. So lesson to anybody listening, if you are going to designate a board, make sure it's not a biased board. Now, those guys I love, we're all still very good friends, all of them, the board, everyone. But it was devastating to me because we had life-changing opportunity, right? And I was 31, 31, 32. Anyway, that was enough for me to say, okay, like I'm gonna try to cash my chips. So a year later, I sold equity, nowhere near that valuation. I got— no, I didn't get hosed, but it was like not even close because I sold it to the partners. And then I took some of that cash and I launched Seymour's, which is my second restaurant concept. Did it without a partner, crushed it in the— in year one. Really similar story to Meatball Shop. Ultimately, the guy who was running Le Pain Quotidien at the time was a mentor of mine. He had opened up 1,200 Le Pain Quotidiens over the last 12 years, 10 years. and I always use him as a soundboard for me. And I said, hey dude, he, he, he came to opening night a week later, wrote me an email, said, I want to help you scale this. I want to leave LePanko to the end. I love this brand. I know I can do it. Like, let me help you scale this. And I was like, dude, you're, you're 15 years my senior. You've opened up 1,100 and, you know, fucking 95 more restaurants than I have, and there's no way I can be your boss. And I'm not ready to have a boss, you know. So like, let me get a little breathing space here. I just got out of a tough relationship. Like, let me just do this. And he was like, cool. 6 months later, he was like, I raised a bunch of money. I really want to do this with you. I think you should consider. And I was like, look, if you want to take this from 6 restaurants to 60 and if we can get this thing to $25-ish million in revenue by the 6th store, and you're— you commit now to buying a chunk of my equity so that I can go create another brand again in 4 or 5 years, I'm open to having the conversation with you. And he was like, that's my plan. And I was like, okay. And so we, we did it, you know, we raised money, we opened up 5 stores together. 2019, I sold him a bunch of my equity, and I began the process for building what what I'm currently running now, which is Creatures of Habit. And, uh, you know, Creatures of Habit ties into my journey in a real way. So I, you know, wellness, nutrition, um, fitness has been the foundation, the cornerstone of my happiness and success in life. I owe everything I have today to my sobriety and my commitment to fitness and nutrition. Um, everything else came after that— my wife, my kids, business. And I just knew that the next thing for me had to be like totally aligned with my lifestyle, and that is of fitness, nutrition, and, and mindset stuff, um, living better based on the decisions that you make. And so I came up with the name Creatures of Habit. It was originally going to be a restaurant that I was going to use as an incubator for a line of consumer packaged goods because I knew that if I wanted to live, you know, if I wanted to align with this wellness lifestyle, I couldn't be working in restaurants all night. So I like wanted to find a way out of that, but I still thought that I needed the restaurant as sort of a springboard. And I created this whole concept and I raised money for it, and the pandemic hit. And so the whole thing kind of like came crashing down, like everybody, right, at that time. And so I— we moved upstate, I hired an executive coach, and I was like, help me help me see me in a different life, like in a different business. And she was like, you're, you're a creative entrepreneur, man. You don't need a restaurant. She's like, find another medium, you know what I mean? Like, you're gonna do it. And so that's when I just went, fuck it, I'm going straight to CPG. And I was on a run. I knew the name was Creatures of Habit. I'm like, how am I going to launch a compelling product that has like— that's, that's organic, that has like authenticity to me. Like, I can't just like develop something out of nowhere. Like, in the restaurant it would have been easy. We're making sauces, we're making, we're making breads, we're making, you know, things like that. Like, like just out of nowhere, like, I know how to build a restaurant concept. I just didn't know how to build a consumer packaged good. And I was on a run and I was like, oh my God, It's right in front of me, man. I've been eating this fucking oatmeal every single day for 20 years. At that point, it was 16 years. And every day I make the same oatmeal. It's, you know, it's oats with 30 grams of plant protein and chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, pink Himalayan salt. And then every single day on the side of my oats, I would have omega-3 fatty acids, my fish oil. I would have a probiotic, digestive enzymes, and vitamin D3.

So I'm on the right track. Those are what I do.

Yeah, those— well, that— dude, those are the bomb. Those are the essentials right now. Creatine, of course, is a big one too. But like, that was my morning routine. That's what I had every single morning. It took me 20 minutes to make. I loved it every day. And in the summertime, I would make it overnight. So I would do the same thing, but I would just do it overnight. So I wasn't eating a hot bowl of oatmeal in the morning. I was on this run and I'm like This is it. I am gonna freaking figure out how to make my oatmeal concoction that I've been fueling myself with every single day through business ventures, through sport competition, through challenges just in general. Like, this is what I rely on. I don't think about it. I don't waste my fucking time worrying about it. Like, I know exactly what I'm gonna have every single day as my first meal of the day. and that healthy meal is going to— and it's delicious— is going to paint the picture of the, the nutritional journey for the rest of the day, also fuel me and satiate me. I'm like, man, if I can figure out how to get that to more people, not only will I be able to package this, this habit that I've been doing that stand the test of time for a guy like me for 16 years, but I'll be able to tell my story like I'm doing right here with you right now. I wasn't able to tell this story when I was in the restaurant business. You know, it like, it didn't make sense to tell my sobriety story, you know. And so I got home from that run, I told my wife what I was gonna do. She was like, you, you really are, you really have lost it. Like, I know you're crazy, but now you've really, you've really jumped off the edge.

That's when you knew you were on the right track.

She was like, you, you, you own 13 restaurants in New York City. She's like, you're gonna start making oatmeal. Like, that's what you're gonna do? And I was like, yeah, watch me. Yeah, I was like, that's what, that's what I'm gonna do. Like, I just, I have a feeling, you know, it's, it's, it's authentic. It's— there's a story, there's substance, there's a brand that I can build around this thing that I've been doing for so long. I could tell the story, I can inspire people that change is possible. You never know where the catalyst will be. For me, oatmeal was a big part of that. I needed something to sink my teeth into, positive. Every day, daily use, and that's it. I put $250 grand into a bank account. I didn't ask for any help out for like raising money. I just said, I'm gonna go ahead and fund this thing to kick it off. I spent a year, I called everybody I knew in CPG and I said, please help, please help, please help. I have no idea what I'm doing. Like, I remember being on these like early day calls and there was like CAC and AOV, and I'm just like on Google like, fucking shit, like, aren't I supposed to know this stuff? Like, finally I said, hey guys, I don't know what you're talking about. Like, you've been talking for the last hour, I haven't said anything for the last month. The truth is I don't, I don't know any, I don't know any of these acronyms. Like, just, just talk like a normal person for a little bit just so I can get good at this, you know? And, uh, and everybody was super patient with me. And man, we did it, you know. I, I came up for that first year I was in development, came up with a product. I called up Gary Vee and I was like, dude, I'm, I'm making an oatmeal business that has a cool line of apparel attached to it. Like, here it is, here's the brand, what do you think? And he was like, dude, this is Kith meets Quaker, let's fucking go. Wrote me the first check, brought in a bunch of other guys, raised some cash, launched it. Just under 3 years ago. And, you know, we've been slinging a lot of oatmeal. We launched a second product. So, so basically it's a, it's a high protein overnight oatmeal. That's our hero product called Meal One. Brand is called Creatures of Habit with a K. Um, it's gluten and glyphosate free oats. It's 30 grams of plant-based protein, chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, pink Himalayan salt. It's got D3 in it. Uh, the omegas are coming from the seeds. It's got probiotic, strong, beautiful probiotic. And digestive enzymes. Super easy to digest. It's got great gut health benefits. It is like a full— it's like a, like a legit satiating, incredibly healthy meal, perfectly balanced in macros. And man, like, you know, I'm not in the oatmeal business. I'm in the Better Habit business. You know, like, I'm really out here trying to fucking pitch better decision making, and I'm doing it through this brand. Because I know how it changed my life. And literally, we started the podcast where I was like, hey, every day we get a shot. Every day we get a shot. It doesn't matter what happened yesterday, you know, all we got to do is get back up. Like, I believe that to my core, and that is how I'm screaming from the hilltops through this brand. And, you know, we're doing really well, and we're going to drop a few more. You know, we have a sleep support hot chocolate called the Nightcap, and we'll be dropping a few more SKUs over the next 3, 4 years. I have no interest in like being like a spray and pray, you know, CPG product business. It's just going to be a very curated, select, you know, SKU profiled portfolio that's like intentional for certain touch points throughout the day. And man, I'm like living my dream, you know. I'm paying myself nowhere near what I was making in the world of restaurants. Took a massive pay cut. And I'm cool with it because I believe really in what I'm doing. And, um, yeah, so thank you for letting me share that because that's, you know, like, I'm deep in it now. I'm like, I am sleeves up, you know. But I've built a really smart, great team of people around me that support what I do well, which is connect with humans at scale. And so they're like, dude, go out and do that. Let us handle a lot of the stuff that like you suck at. And I'm like, my gosh, that's music to my ears. You know, I've got a partner, co-founder who I brought on about 2 years in who was consulting with me from the beginning, who is just— his name is John Yarmy. She's like, I've never worked with a better guy in my life. Legitimately ever, who has an ungodly amount of respect for what I do, and I have the utmost respect for what he does. I trust him with— I would— I trust him with everything in my life. And, um, you know, he is a spreadsheet assassin. He genuinely loves it, like loves— like, we were just— we just had a 48-hour offsite at my house And like, like looking at him when he— when we were building out the next 2 years, like watching him, he was like salivating, figuring it out. And I'm just like, oh my God, I am so lucky to have this guy on my side, in my corner, telling me to go out and do what I do best. Like, so yeah, man, that's what I'm doing.

I mean, that is a great place to wrap. That was absolutely epic. I appreciate you coming on today.

Dude, thank you so much for having me.

You want to look at the camera on the left? Let everyone know where they could find you, what you're working on.

Boom. Thank you guys for listening. You can follow me @MichaelChernow. That's like my personal journey where I throw a lot of my business shit into. And then of course, Creatures of Habit @CreaturesOfHabit. Creatures of Habit with a K. And then you can go check out what we're doing on our website at creaturesofhabit.com. Creatures with a K of habit dot com. Make those decisions. The choice is yours, y'all.