#073: How Brian Von Ancken Built a Thriving Wellness Growth Network—While Prioritizing Fatherhood

I did a silent retreat, a 7-day silent retreat, after never meditating for more than 10 minutes. So that was—

Wow.

I would not recommend it. It was really intense, but I went for it. Tim Ferriss podcast, Tim Ferriss was like, hopefully this, maybe this can inspire some person who's going through a tough time, but you know, just inspired me to go for it, and I think that experience was a nice initial step for me to Ultimately, the way I look at silent retreats or any sort of inner work is like, I think of it as like a, you know, those, like our, we don't know, we all have AirPods now, but like the old headphones that are all tangled. And you're just like, if I were to try to untangle this, I really would need to like take time. And I think we all just by living life have a lot of internal tangles that just exist and we just deal with it. And it's not a big deal, but like, it's kind of maybe not, we don't feel as rested, we don't feel as connected, as whole, whatever it might be. By taking some time to be silent or even taking time to reflect— doesn't have to be a 7-day silent retreat— I think our bodies naturally have the ability to start to like untangle those wires.

Welcome back to Season 3, Episode 16 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Brian Von Anken, who is the founder of Wellness Growth Mastermind. Thanks for joining us today, Brian.

Psyche to be here.

I'm excited for this episode because we were nerding out the other week on just like all the wellness things that, uh, are very important to both of our lives.

Yeah.

Um, I'm a software founder by trade, but despite that, I love doing all wellness things. I have a sauna and a cold plunge on my roof, which I think speaks volumes to that. So I want to just start because it seems like you've been in and around every single company in this space, and I'm curious to get your lens on like how it has evolved over the last decade.

Yeah, well, first of all, I think you're a wellness founder in waiting. I wouldn't be surprised if a future company that you found is in the wellness space, given how much you care about it. And yeah, I mean, it's so interesting, man. Like wellness is something that has meant so many different things over the last 10 years. I mean, I know when I first started my career at Tough Mudder, it was like all about how do you optimize how tough you are? How do you virtue signal how much how long you can run, how much weight you can lift, and it's like very much about exuding strength and not so much about your own personal journey. And now it's like, it's been amazing to witness the 180 in like just a short amount of time whereby, you know, now if that's what you're going for, it's kinda like, whoa, are you okay? Like, why are you just going for that? And why aren't you thinking about all these other aspects of health and wellness? And I think, One thing I've just learned in the 15 years I've been doing this is that the wellness industry is fickle. Like, it's kind of like, you know, it kind of is— goes in trends, and you kind of, um, you need to be ready to pivot on a dime. You need to be ready to, um, be open to what's new, what's hot, so that you can not just, you know, fall behind very quickly, which can happen.

How has your relationship with it evolved, like, from a personal level and a professional level, right? Because I think Professionally, you've obviously been in it for a long time, and then when you go off on your own to start something, it has a much deeper meaning, I believe, on a personal level as well. So I'm curious how you compare and contrast your relationship with health and wellness, uh, in those two buckets.

Yeah, so I, uh, I played college football, and, uh, I remember when I played college football, it was like I hated working out because it was like I had to, and it was like, oh, this begrudging thing. And then, you know, after I left, I came to have a different relationship with it, and I found like group fitness classes, which I loved, and the Tough Mudders, which I loved. But as I started to like work in the industry and build my own company in this space, I even built a workout company, which maybe we'll get to. And it's kind of like, yeah, I started to have a different relationship with it at times where you're like, okay, is this a chore? Is this like making me think about work? But as I've grown in my understanding of wellness, I really, it is every moment of our life is wellness to some degree, right? I mean, we are all having thoughts that are based on patterns that are, influencing how we're going to do the things we're gonna do in this world. And so if we're not always just thinking about it holistically, we're doing ourselves a disservice.

I wanna talk about your own journey through wellness, especially having a kid now, and kind of the contrast of running a company, but also being interested in wellness. I know, I'm sure you've gone through this. For context, I mean, you know, I used to run like the Proof newsletter and I loved, I was so into my health and wellness routines. Yeah. But for context, I was doing that for free. I wasn't making money. And I had a very cushy, like, full-time VC job, right? And so I could work like 10 to 5, especially over the pandemic. We weren't really investing. It was 10 to 4, super casual for 2 years. And I was just so interested in my wellness routines. And then the reason I had to stop doing The Proof and all those interviews was because once I actually started a company that I started like 2 and a half years ago, all those routines flew out the window and I don't even have kids yet.

Totally.

And so it's so funny that contrast, like people still think of me, oh, you're that wellness guy. I'm like, I have some of the worst routines you've ever seen. 'Cause I'm working 24/7.

Yeah.

Brian was like, yeah, starting a company's hard, having a baby's hard, I'm gonna do 'em at the same time. Yeah, man.

Wait, why not challenge yourself? We only got one life, right? No, that's, it's funny, man. I remember reading your, I remember reading some of your posts and being like, damn, that's a good, like, you had a great routine going. Like, you would journal and whatever. And like, I am so guilty of that. Like, I've had many phases of my life where my morning routine was hours and it involved, you know, morning pages and stretching and getting some cardio and then making sure that I like met it like so, so long. And I think I actually believe that there's no one right answer. It all depends on like where you are in your journey, right? So I think if you're new to this sort of stuff, giving yourself permission to dive headfirst, giving yourself permission to like take a chunk of time if you have the time and space to do it, you know, can actually be a really great way to then pair back, right? You can be like, okay, well now that I have more responsibility or whatever, I know what I— you probably at this point, you know, like this is what I really need to do in order to make sure I have enough energy to run my business well, right?

I stretch and then take a coffee and start working.

Great.

But all, as long as I get that little thing in.

And you, but like that, you know, took you a long time to get there, right?

Like I was such a sucker for it until I heard Alex Hormozy. Uh, I saw like a clip one time where he is like, You don't need to wake up and sauna, cold plunge, meditate, red light, journal. You can also just like wake up and start working. Like it's, it's true.

Yeah.

And I was like, fuck. So you're telling me there's people who can be successful not doing all this? Yeah. I remember, cause I had like a very short phase where I would do the full 2, 3 hour thing and I was like exhausted by the end of it. And I'm, I feel like I was trying to force a routine into me instead of figuring out like, what is the routine that works best for me?

Yeah.

And just like let that be my reality.

Yeah, I mean, so one of the things that I really care about is the concept of should. I think a lot of us are living from a place of should as opposed to true desire, and I think some of that founder wellness stuff ends up being shoulds, right? We feel like in order for us to be successful, we should do the sauna cold plunge, we should— and that's not to say that you can't do that, but if it's coming from a place of authentic, like, I know what I really want, I know what's good for me, You know, that's exactly what's gonna end up leading to long-term results because when you're doing things for other people, whether it's your job or whether it's who you're gonna be with, like there's so many things, shoulds in our lives, you know, it's exhausting. That ends up taking a toll on you and it's not authentic.

So walk me through a day in the life. What time are you waking up and what is your, what's your present day?

All right, so, uh, just imagine. All right, so it's 5:30 and you're like, Oh, what's that noise? Oh, it's a baby crying. And there's a baby in my house. So little Luca is 6 months old and he's sleeping through the night, which is way better than it used to be. But he's still getting up around 5, 5:30. And so it's very much, it's dad time at that time. 'Cause I really try to make sure I'm spending time most of the days, like having a full day of work. And so I try to, you know, bond with Luca for a while. And you know what that looks like is probably, letting my wife sleep in and kind of playing with him. But also like, I do like the hacky things where like, I'll lift him some, like, all right, we'll do 10 lifts or like, you know, like kind of use the baby as a little—

That is the most wellness founder dad I've ever known.

No, no, I mean like, I'm not intense about it, but—

10 bicep curls, right arm, left arm, goblet squats.

It's all about chest and bicep. No, so no, mostly it's being with him in the morning and then trying to get outside and getting for a walk with my wife by like 7 to get some sunlight. We walk and get coffee and like, I'll then, I have some like overnight oats that I'll eat and I'll try to get to work by around 7:45, 8:00, and I take 5 minutes, literally just 5 minutes. I have an affirmation that I listen to and I like really try to center myself. I like remind myself of the big to-dos and then I do deep work right in the morning. So it's very much like deep, deep work in the morning. No meetings, no meetings before 11:00 if I can help it. And then the whole rest of the day is just meetings for the most part. And then hopefully turning off by, 5— he goes to bed at 6:15, so 5:35, uh, and then I'll get back to it later at night if I can. But, you know, I'll mix in probably, uh, 2 boot camp workouts, uh, a week, and then 1 yoga is, is the— and then maybe a Pilates, which I don't know if you guys have tried it, but I'm a big— I also play basketball once a week, Wednesday nights. So I guess I do a lot, but not as much as I used to.

Did you strip away a lot of these, like, little things we were talking about, like the red light and the sauna and the meditation and the journal and any of those that have stuck?

I mean, I think that, um, I trust— I, I have— the way that I live a lot is like trust. So it's kind of like if a new member of my community comes in, like for example, um, I think it's called Mindful Mornings, and there's an app that they've got like a ton of downloads, and they just join and they're like, hey, try the app. I'm like, cool, I'll do that for a week and then see if that sticks. Or You know, there's somebody who sends me like these overnight oats. Is somebody in the group? And I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll try that.

Which brand?

Holos. Really good actually.

I don't know.

I've heard of it, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Super like easy and tastes really good. But no, honestly, it really just comes down to, I make sure that once a week I do a reflection. So I have this whole like Notion document, which is like, what are my goals? What are my quarterly goals? And then I ask myself 3 questions every week. Is this helpful? Is this interesting, by the way?

Yeah, yeah.

This is deep stuff.

I don't know if this is like the right—

I listened to one of your previous podcasts. Really technical on like marketing stuff, which I—

no, no, no. Okay, we're, we're, we're drunk driver when it comes to like the conversation.

You're drunk driving. That's—

dude, I'll tell you this honestly, like the, the premise of this podcast is for Adrian and I to have conversations with people we're curious about.

Cool.

And topics that we're curious about. And I think the cameras and the mics are just like a byproduct of that.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's kind of like, I never— we found out the analytics of this podcast for the first time after like 60 episodes. I never looked.

That's great, man.

So I was like, I'm doing this for me and if it grows, like, that's awesome. But like, we've had conversations, we had a founder on who I actually think the episode's going live this week. He like grew up with, his dad's a pastor, like grew up in a very religious household. We like went down a rabbit hole about religion for like 30 minutes. And then we've also talked to like super technical founders about like go-to market, like the episode we just did, like go-to market strategy.

Right.

So I, I'm, I'm all over, I love this. Keep going.

Okay, good. Yeah, because, and I love that by the way, the fact that you guys are just following, I call it following the fun. You know, you just trust it and you're like following the fun and good things will happen. But no, so I have this Notion document and I've got, you know, my 10-year goals and I take a quick peek at them. And then I've got my quarterly goals, like 3 deliverables. And then I ask myself 3 questions every week. One is like, how do I feel about the business? How do I feel about my relationship? Like, and then how do I, what am I proud of? What am I proud of from the past week? And I try to— I've like had so many iterations of this system, but this is the one right now where it just feels like efficient. And I, and I basically— my, my Sunday routine, it used to be I would take a bath. It's not really happening as much anymore, but like a place to reflect for 5 minutes. I fill this out, look at my to-dos for the week, and then I just upload a little— Apple has this new journaling app, and so I upload 4 photos of Luca, I write a little blurb, and it's cool. Every week of his life I kind of have something there. So I try to My two mantras for this quarter is I can, like I can energy. This like, I can do it. And then I'm a great dad. And just like leaning into those and letting that permeate my subconscious and being the things that are almost affecting every decision I make.

Talk to me about affirmations specifically. I've been told by a number of people like you should try 'em at some point. There's no downside. Just like try it for a few weeks.

Yeah.

But what does that process look like? Do you kind of decide what to do, record them, listen to it?

Oh dude, it's so, it's not, It's weird and it's not easy because I think there's so much out there that sounds so preposterous. And so I can— there's definitely like a lot of like the whole manifesting world is like really interesting, but also like can, can I think be really standoffish. But I think like at the end of the day, it's an inputs outputs type thing, right? So think about your own business, like the things that you input every single day are going to ultimately be the things that end up affecting what happens at the end. And What you can do is, I believe, we're, we're, we're two beings at the same time. We're these super conscious, smart, you know, humans, and then we're like dumb animals. And our dumb animals are run by our subconscious, and our subconscious is a bunch of beliefs that happen typically when we were younger that affect how we like look at other people or how we deal with situations or whatever it might be. And like, we have the ability to like alter those or change or add new ones. I just watched the movie Inside Out 2 with my little kid and my parents, and it was like, it's similar. Like, you make these new core beliefs of yourself, and affirmations is one of those things you can do it. So the way that I do it is cheapest, quickest way, I go on Insight Timer, or I ask some friends of like, what are some like 2-minute, I listen to a 2-minute affirmation, and it's just saying things that are the types of things that I want to believe deeply in my core. That maybe I do, but it's always nice to have like a little bit of like nudge. Like I think there's a really great quote in mine that I like where it's called, because faith and fear require you, each require you to believe in something you cannot see. So you might as well choose faith. And that doesn't mean like spiritual faith, but it's like, you know what I mean? Like we can live our lives out of fear in such a way. And I grew up like being anxious and like worried about stuff all the time. And it's not to say I don't, But I think that having daily reminders of that is useful, but I'm not like, I did a, I did a stint where I would go into the closet and like record my affirmations and then listen to myself. And I, it, that never stuck. Like what sticks for me is I just found this one 2-minute one that like is just very useful.

Was there anything like any moment in your life that like forced you to be more conscious about doing this deep self-work? Cause I would, I would argue on the spectrum of people that we've talked to on this podcast, like not many have gone the length that you have to just like figure out what works for you and like what's important to you and how to actually embody that and live it every day.

Yeah, I mean, uh, I wish— it's funny, man, it's one of those things that I wish that there wasn't a moment, but, uh, because I think everybody can really benefit from this sort of stuff. But as you know, living life, like, it's all nice to haves and not need to have. Like, a lot of us probably wish we could go really deep and spend the time, but life happens and you're busy and it's tough to, like, find the headspace, but Yeah, what happened with me is I, so was a Tough Mudder, had a great job, went to a great school, married my college sweetheart, and then went through miscarriages and divorce. And I basically, it broke my brain. I was like, I'd lived the should life for this long time. Like what was expected of me, what was expected of me? And then for this to happen, I was kind of just like, wait, what? And I had these buddies of mine who were like, would take a bullet for me, but I didn't know how to tell them that I wasn't okay. Like I had never been taught that growing up.

Up.

And so it just became this like moment where I was like, okay, am I gonna make lemonade out of this situation or am I gonna go to a dark place? And don't get me wrong, I still did the early divorce guy thing where I like went surfing and I went to Bali, like I did stuff. But, but I also just spent a lot of time getting to know myself and understanding the other modalities of wellness that I wasn't particularly, um, familiar with. And there's a whole rabbit hole story of stuff I've tried, which— okay, we're here. I'll share. I did a silent retreat, a 7-day silent retreat, uh, after never meditating for more than 10 minutes. So that was— wow, I would not recommend it. It was really intense, uh, but I went for it. Uh, Tim Ferriss podcast. Tim Ferriss was like— hopefully this— maybe this can inspire, uh, some person who's going through a tough time. But, you know, just, just inspired me to go for it. And I think that experience was a nice initial step for me to Ultimately, the way I look at silent retreats or any sort of inner work is like, I think of it as like a, you know, those like our— we don't have— we all have AirPods now, but like the old headphones that are all tangled, and you're just like, if I were to try to untangle this, I really would need to like take time. And I think we all just by living life have a lot of internal tangles that just exist, and we just deal with it, and it's not a big deal, but like it's kind of maybe not we don't feel as rested, we don't feel as connected, as whole, whatever it might be. And so by taking some time to be silent, or even taking time to reflect— it doesn't have to be a 7-day silent retreat— I think our bodies naturally have the ability to start to, like, untangle those wires. And so that was one of many things, including yoga retreats and men's work and psychedelics and all sorts of different things.

I'm fascinated about this idea. I don't know if you've heard about it, like, before the fall and after the fall. And some people you can just tell right away that they've had a fall before or multiple falls. You can see it in their eyes. You can see in how they just— the way you're talking. You can see that even before you've told me that, you can see that that has happened. Yeah, I think it's a very good thing. And a lot of investors use this kind of like psychological framework when investing in people because usually you don't want to invest in like green founders that things have only gone perfectly for them.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm curious to get your experience here because I'm sure you've had versions of that before. But I distinctly remember in college I'd like— I had a perfect childhood. My parents are still together, very happy. Everyone's healthy. Went to a good school. And senior year finally fell into like a bout of depression. That was the first time I'd ever had that before. Yeah, I just specifically remember before and after of when I finally got through it. I remember sitting down with a buddy at a table and I could tell immediately that he'd been through the same thing. And you just have this like empathetic conversation where you can talk about things very openly. Versus before I'd lead with a completely different tactic in a conversation of—

Totally.

I don't know if it was ego or arrogance or whatever it was, but you get so tangled up in yourself. And then when you've been through that, you're just such a different person. People can tell right away.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, was that kind of the primary one for you? Were there versions of that?

Yeah, I mean, it's all— there's so many mini examples, but I'd say that For me, that was big. I also, I was a green founder who failed. You know, that was another big moment for me. I started a company. So I went through this whole meditation retreat and I was like, I really, really wanna build a company that brings these modalities to people in an accessible way. And so, 'cause I was thinking about people like us, right? Who need it, but are kind of like, ah, I don't have time or whatever. So what I did is I created a workout called Anchor where it was a bootcamp-style workout, but we incorporated meditation, breathwork, and vulnerable group sharing. And it was like a 50-minute experience. You got your total health workout in, and people came through it, and it was like, whoa, like, like, I feel a runner's high and like, like connected. And it was like people were having these deep experiences. But I think what I learned was I was ultimately— I was solo founder, I bootstrapped it, I burned myself out. I wasn't practicing when I was preaching, and COVID hit. That was really the big thing. And I think I just like, you know, that was another low moment where you're just like, okay, what does this mean? Am I a failure? And I think, you know, there's always gonna be multiple moments of that for everybody, and they don't need to be so drastic as divorce and like stopping a company. But I think you're right that it's all about your reaction to that sort of stuff. And if you're able to take that and turn it into something good, which is, I mean, just think of so many successful people in this world. A lot of their blueprint. It's like something went wrong and this is like what I was able to do with it.

Yeah, it's not— what you see on the outside is very rarely what the reality is on the inside.

Yeah.

Um, oh, I'm curious to hear a little bit more about the new, the new venture, the new journey that you're on.

Yeah, so I mean, basically when Anchor failed, I, uh, I realized that it was because I really didn't know a lot about growth and marketing, and it was, it was a blind spot for me. I was good at operations. I'm also a lawyer, by the way, so I got my law degree, and, and like, I was like good at all that sort of stuff, but But I didn't know a lot about that. And so I decided, I was like, you know what, I'm gonna lean into my weaknesses as opposed to my strength in what I do next. And I convinced Robbie to give me a job as head of partnerships at Othership, which, you know, at the time was just like not a lot of people. And through that experience, I think I was able to just meet a ton of interesting people in the health and wellness space who were doing great things and had great knowledge bases. And what I realized is what I love to do as a human is bring people together. So I was like, wait a minute, this head of growth at HVMN, like, you really would have a lot in common with the AI journaling app that I just met, or whatever. And like, I just started this monthly group meeting called the Wellness Growth Mastermind where we would bring together health and wellness leaders and talk about topics, like talk about different ways we were trying to grow our businesses, what was working, what wasn't working, but also just like bringing people together who care about the same sort of thing and like realizing that we're all in this together. 'Cause like, I don't know about you guys, like you guys do this podcast and I think that probably changes it, but you're probably, a lot of us are in our bubbles. Like I'm just in my bubble and I don't get to interact with too much outside. And there's such value if you're able to expand your network and if you're able to not have to reinvent the wheel every time you're doing something new. And so, yeah, I've been building this for the last 2 years on the side. And then, you know, I had the opportunity once my son was born to get back into the entrepreneurial seat and didn't feel as green. And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go for this. And it's been beautiful because the number of health and wellness companies has like quadrupled in the last, whatever, 3 to 4 years. And, you know, the definition of wellness is expanding. And what I really believe is that it's an all boats rise industry. If somebody starts working out more, they're more likely to take care of their mental health or their nutrition. And so bringing those people together felt like a no-brainer. And if you look at the current landscape, there's quite a lot of communities for fitness founders, and there's quite a lot of community communities for growth leaders. And, you know, they're either too niche or too broad. And I think there's a lot of desire and need based on the people in my group and who talk to me that they want to get together in these spaces. And, you know, now it's both virtual and in person to— you know, what we're doing is we're helping each other grow our businesses because at the end of the day, that's what we need. But, uh, it's also being a part of something bigger than yourself.

What keeps you up at night?

What keeps me up at night is Am I, 'cause I don't want this to be like thousands and thousands of people, but I want this to be like 200, 300 people. And the question is, is can I maintain my level of connection and quality to really service these people's needs as that number gets bigger? But I mean, I think what also really keeps me up at night is like, you know, I could see myself building another venture-backed company, or like, you know, like going that route. Am I shooting too small potentially for this? This is going to be a lifestyle business as I want. I'm not taking investors, and, and I think that's beautiful because I want to build a life that's intentional and built around my son, built around my family. But, um, yeah, we'll, we'll see how it plays out. But I, I mean, I'm just taking it one step at a time for now.

When you think about the priorities in your life, stack ranked, what are they?

Family, work, self-care, friends.

Work over self-care, slash health.

Right now, yeah, yeah. And it, to me, that's a temporary, it wasn't like that. But the way I'm working is nourishing, if that makes sense. Like I'm not burning the candle at both ends. Prioritizing work. I just took off the whole Labor Day weekend and like, I'm aware of my business and I'm checking, but I'm not putting in the time because I know that family is, is number one and I want to be with my family. But, um, I'd be— what are your guys' ranks right now?

I mean, obviously you're different life stages, so I would assume, uh, work probably is number one right now for me.

Yeah.

Um, I would say probably relationship and then health and wellness. Relationship being like family, friends, significant other.

Yeah.

And then health and wellness, I think.

Yeah.

But I would say that I am very intentional about trying to combine them into one.

Yeah. Yeah, I know.

Right. Like, I'd rather do a workout as a meeting than like go get a drink and like order a seltzer water. I'd rather like get a workout in at the same time. But I'm also very aware of the fact that we're in different life stages. Like, I think I would I want to get to a point where I'm financially able to make like family.

Yeah.

You know, if and when I have kids or whatever, to like make that the number one priority.

Totally.

I would say one of my operating principles is live the next few years of your life like most people won't, so you can live the rest of your life like most people can't.

Mm. Love that.

I love that. Yeah. I think that's great.

Will it work? I don't know.

I'll let you know in 5 years.

I would say mine right now, Relationship and family, number one. Work, number two. Health, number three. But I will say, kind of similar to you and like stacking a lot of these things, I think something— I don't know if I've told you this, but the— I was in your room taking meetings and you have like that board of you and Julie's workouts and that you'll do some of them together. I don't know if you do all of them together, but at least some of them together every week. And I think when you're able to merge those things, like working out with your partner, working out with your parents, and just like combine, save time, and then do more for whether it's work or health or other things. My girlfriend and I, she is going to school next year, but over the summer she started doing some work with Verbatim, my company, and we're launching like a pilot podcast where we're interviewing some like head of marketings and we're doing like a 5 or 6 episode sprint to see if it works. And she kind of just like came in and helped kind of structure that and did all the video editing. And that's so fun because now like I'll be taking calls during the day, she'll be doing her thing, and then end of the day we can like work out and sync up about like how this is going. And she's learning a lot about my business. And when you're working separate jobs, I think there's so many partners out there that know like the basics of what their partner does, but actually don't know what the fuck they're doing all day.

Totally.

And I think that's like a cool thing when you actually know.

I think people probably have differing preferences. In terms of like how much they want them to know. Um, I actually think because my life is so consumed by work that I appreciate that the most intimate relationship to me is with someone who, like, if you ask, if you ask Julia, like, oh, what does Platter do? She'll tell you, like, they optimize websites. Which, like, I kind of appreciate that because my girlfriend's in the medical field.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that if I dated someone that was like doing the same, it might actually hit the point of like information overload where it's like literally 24 hours of your day is consumed by it. So having the ability, not even the ability, it's almost like she pushes me to explore different things with her. Like in terms, she's very curious. I'm also very curious, but I think she's actually forced me to find other hobbies away from work and trying to make our life separate from it because so much of it is consumed. I work. Like, she jokes with me. She's like, oh, like, would you hire me? And I was like, no, I wouldn't actually.

I think full-time hiring, like, Dan and Create, and that overlap is so incredible.

I respect it. It's, it's, it's the epitome of like all in or all out.

Yeah.

I've heard— I mean, you listen to what Alex told us.

Yeah.

Uh, the founder of the Five Minute Journal was on the podcast.

Oh, nice.

Uh, and his first business with— was with his now like divorced wife. Yeah. And he experienced that. And not every outcome is like always the extreme of like it didn't end well. But I think there's something about that that's like a little bit scary to me where I feel like you need to have some sacred space. At least that's my preference.

Yeah. Pivoting a bit, I want to talk about, so I did my first Tough Mudder. Nice. With my buddy Andrew in Austin for the first time. Sweet. A lot of, we're kind of at the tail end of Tough Mudders being at peak.

Yeah, yeah, we are.

But it was still packed.

Now it's HYROX.

Yeah, now it's High Rocks.

And something that, that day I was listening to podcasts like this past week and they were talking about— I was trying to get better sleep. I've been having a hard time falling asleep and someone was giving advice about if the best advice that we have, it could be work, workout, whatever it is, but every day you have 100% in the tank. And if you get down to like sub 5%, you're going to get great sleep. Just like empty the tank every single day. Yeah, it could be working all day, whatever it is. But really be present, try to empty that tank. And I was doing some journaling on it and I was like, well, what are the days that I slept like a baby? And I wrote down one of them was Tough Mudder because physically you emptied the tank.

Oh yeah.

And there were also days where I was writing down, it was like, wow, I worked like 6 to midnight and I was proud of myself and I emptied the tank and I slept like a baby that night. And so I'm curious from your perspective, like how have you think, how have you thought about like emptying your own tank every day?

Yeah, I mean, it's funny 'cause first of all, when I was at Tough Mudder, one of my jobs there was to go undercover and run the races with a mask on in order to write a report on whether the event was like good or not. So I would try to, you know, sneak in without signing a waiver, steal from the merchandise tent, like skip obstacles and all this. And it was like, so I've done a lot of 'em and the electric shock, first of all, never, gets easier, but I've had a lot of really great night sleeps from those. And I think, you know, these days it's another way that I find I'm emptying my tank is just spending time with my son. Like there's really nowhere I can go other than being right there. And it is a weirdly physical experience, right? Whether you're like, the creativity I've come up with is insane. Like the songs I'm singing or like the ways I'm trying to like get him to laugh. And it's just like, you're so there and you're doing it and it's very physical because you're picking him up, you're moving him around, you're always trying to play. And I think, you know, that is extremely tiring, not to mention not getting as much sleep. But I think, yeah, to me, when I have my workouts, I'm going super hard. When I have— a lot of times when I have calls, like, I just, like, I'm just in my call window. Like, I don't know how many calls you guys— I can average quite a lot of calls per day and that, that really stacks up. And so I mean, my big thing is basketball. I played basketball and I have the best night's sleep when I play basketball. And it's the same sort of thing. And I think it's— but it's— you think it's the physical, but I think it's also the social. Or think about when you've gone to a conference, like, you're tired after that or whatever. Like, there's, there's an element to social interaction which is tiring in a good way. And it's, it's— your body's like, oh yeah, I've, I've scratched that itch and now I can rest. I'm not like awake because I still need social connection or whatever it might be.

What about you?

Um, I think it, it ebbs and flows for me in terms of like where I'm spending most of my like mental bandwidth. Um, right. Like days where it's maybe not a lot of calls, but you're very intensely like thinking about very impactful, impactful things for the business. Or like days like today when you're filming a ton of podcast episodes and it's very intellectually draining and stimulating at the same time.

The tank will be empty today.

Uh, yeah. Or it's days when you're doing like crazy physical feats. I think I've— sleep is not something that I've struggled with for long periods of time. I think probably being an athlete is a big reason that I've been able to be very in tune with my body and like know what works. Um, but with that being said, whenever it's struggled for even a minute, I'm like super hyper-focused. Like I put this back on like a month ago because of that.

Yeah.

Uh, and I, I like, things are fine now and I kind of just have left it on. Um, but ultimately I think for me, something I like about the life that I live is that no two days are the same. So I think I actually get drained more by following my curiosities.

Yeah, in a good way.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Another quick point on that is, uh, I'm also in a men's group, which is a group that gets together once a week and, uh, connects and tries to give space for whatever might be getting in the way of like us living the lives we wanna live and just like help us like kind of get rid of it. And I just, I think that that's something that it hasn't been as doable now that I'm a dad, but like looking back, that was a really helpful, and I don't think it needs to be as formal, but having good friends, having good connections where you can let that go, drain the tank, you know, be able to, to me it's also physically releasing. Like, you know, if you're angry about something, like letting that go. If you're sad about something, let it— crying, like, like being open to trusting the emotions that your body are bringing up and then treating them like a sneeze instead of being like, like, oh, this is a bodily function. I need, I need to feel this. I'm gonna feel it. We're gonna let it go, and that is just gonna allow me to like get better sleep or like move on.

That's a really good point. I think one of the challenges that probably a lot of entrepreneurs face is you always have to put on this face for like your employees and your investors and your team, and so they struggle to find like an environment where it feels comfortable to be vulnerable.

Yeah.

Um, and I think that's a lot of why I've, you know, subconsciously or consciously have like done a lot of community stuff similarly to you with like bringing founders together. Uh, I have a therapist, like I like to be in these environments to be able to just like be my authentic self. Um, because I recognize that you can't always be that way in certain environments for better or for worse, like when you're in build mode.

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why the, the communities you mentioned, or the community I'm like, it is important because you got to have that, that spot that you got to play your part when you're in your business, but there is space for you to be the vulnerable self that you need to be because otherwise you think you're tricking yourself, but you're not.

How has your, um, perception on like relationships evolved over the years as your self journey has evolved?

Yeah, so I met my now wife when I was traveling. So like part of the other part of when I got divorced is I traveled a lot and I spent a couple months in Tobago, like the island of Tobago. And I was literally like quit life, big beard, one-handed pushups, like swimming every day. I was jacked, but I was like, you know, I was just like really reading a lot, journaling a lot, and then, It was this random fishing village, and my wife, uh, happened to be at this one eco lodge with her mom, and we were on the same beach. It started to rain. We went in this, this shack to avoid the rain, and like, we just started to talk, and like, we were reading similar books. She was like living in Brooklyn, which is where I was from. We had like similar family connections. And like, anyway, it was this beautiful moment of like meeting her, but, but I think what I needed to do in order to get to that point was I was like literally etching away at the self-beliefs of myself so that I could actually be true to what I needed to feel content in myself, and then I could go out. And then now that you're, you know, once you get in the relationships, I mean, my biggest thing is I've got a couple. I feel like I have a thing for everybody, but my thing for relationships is like, you know, speak the unspeakables, right? I think there's a lot of ways in which we can have these things in our head and we just can't say them because we don't wanna hurt the other person. But if you find some space where you both feel calm, you both feel ready, and you can speak the unspeakables, there's just like a lot of ways like, okay, I can like move on, I can like move past this. And that's like really, really helpful. We also like, I mean, clear is kind, it's Brené Brown, but like covered contracts, there's so many relationships where you're like, there's this unspoken thing that like, I expect you to do this, but I haven't said anything. And if you don't do it, I'm gonna feel hurt. And you're like, well, none of us are mind readers. And I think that we have this misconception in relationships that's like, if somebody doesn't know what I want, then they don't know me well, right? You don't know me. Like, it's like, no, we're just like, we're two different people. That's impossible. So, you know, just letting go of that need and that attachment and maybe just being able to be as open and honest about needs as you can. And then like, I don't know, I feel like my big thing is following the fun, like I said, just like finding opportunities and like bringing laughter in as much as possible and bringing playfulness. And then, you know, using that as like the ability to work through hard things. I've got a lot of relationship stuff.

I'm curious also beyond intimate relationship and just like personal and professional.

Sorry, was that what you meant?

Yeah, but it's okay. That works too.

This was a good direction.

I like it.

I was more so curious, just like as you've gone on this self-journey, both with your personal traumas and then like your journey professionally, how that's affected the way that you just like treat relationships?

Yeah, I mean, uh, it, it becomes super simple at the end of the day. I mean, it's, it's give first and it's being useful and it's just like, uh, really being curious. And, and I don't know, my, my big thing when it comes to people that I meet is How do I really try to know them on a deeper level? How do I like get to know them and then, you know, show up for them, right? I actually think there's a cool concept. I don't know where I heard it, but it's like, I have my like core group of people that I'm always gonna be in touch with. And then I probably got like a couple roster spots that are open. And I think I kind of rotate it based on need. Like sometimes you got a friend who just went through a breakup or dealt, dealt with a death. And it's like being there for those people at those times, like end up meaning quite a lot over time. And so I try to, be like, have a finger on a pulse for ways that I can help. And I mean, my biggest thing is I just, I do believe in the ability for introducing people and making connections. It just happens very naturally for me. And I try to do that as much as I can with everybody that I meet and not in a pushy way, just like, hey, like I heard you talk about this. I know this person and they're really good. And I think if you tend to be a magnet, like you're a magnet for however you present yourself online or like be in the world, like you become a magnet and you end up attracting the types of people that are aligned with who you are. You do enough of that over time, you're able to kind of connect people and make connections accordingly.

I like your note on, uh, speaking the unspeakable. Have you heard about the, like, notion of making the, like, one call?

No.

What's that? I think this is Andrew Wilkinson from Tiny. He's a big investor. I think he was on a podcast talking about this and said, if I go to you right now and I say, like, what's the one call that you're avoiding, almost everyone, at least one comes to mind. I assume when I said that, you're like, there's probably like I should, this friend, or like I should do this thing at work, or like I'm not talking about this in my relationship. And when he said that, I was like, oh yeah, there's two I've been avoiding for a year. And I think everyone has those. And there's always gonna be more. There's like big ones that you've been avoiding and then little ones. And I have a note to myself like every month, like a recurring calendar invite, like the one call.

I love that.

And I see that and I'm just like, ah, yeah, fuck. 'Cause it hits you right away.

You all know.

I'm like, I should be like giving like more honest feedback to like this team member that I like not liking what I'm seeing. Yep. I'm not talking to my parent this way. I need to pull them in.

Yep.

I'm curious, as a wellness junkie myself, given how deep you are in the ecosystem, like, what, what are you seeing is like the, the latest and greatest trends right now?

Yeah, so, um, obviously like sauna cold plunge I feel like has had its moment, and I think it's pretty saturated. And but I do think it has more staying power than some of these other trends. I think it's just obviously so science-backed, there's such an immediate feedback loop that I could I mean, obviously, and there's cultures all around the world where like they do it all the time. So I feel like that's something that I could see continuing on. You know, one thing that I see a lot of is gut health. I don't know, I think gut health is something that's like nascent but growing. And I see, you know, these at-home testing kits now that you can start to do because they just, there's so much correlation to what's going on in your gut with how you're doing. Different sorts of— like, I went to this conference recently and this woman was an expert on gut health and she's like, everybody needs to be drinking baby formula or like breast milk. Like there's something in breast milk which is like the best thing for your gut. And I was like, I have so much of that in my fridge right now, but I'm not— I'm not going— like there's, there's limits for all of us. And if you want to go that route, I think that's awesome. But I think there's— to me, that's something that's interesting. I could make a weird prediction. There's a weird prediction I have, which is—

give us all the hot takes—

um, spirituality. I could see kind of making a comeback a bit, like, which is a weird— but it's like, so I think everybody is optimizing their health and there's so many different angles that we're taking it at, but at the end of the day, if you're able to have some sort of connection to religion or spirituality or to a higher power, um, there's something that happens and there can be like a change there. And so I've just seen a couple like data points in the, like, I don't know if, was it Danny Miranda? Like he started to really talk about that a lot.

And then there's— Oh yeah, he went like all in.

And I think there's like, I've seen a couple other data points and I wouldn't be surprised if there's like a New York Times article in 2 years that's like, maybe 3 years, like, you know, the new spirituality, not necessarily embracing older modalities of that, but new places where you're able to connect to a higher power or something that might be because You know, at the end of the day, uh, so if you were to— if somebody were to tell you like, hey, there's a pill out there that makes you live longer, healthier, and less likelihood of divorce, you'd probably be like, yeah, I'd do that. But the answer is like spirituality and religion. Like, like, if you look at that, you know, people who have maintained in those cultures, like, there is just longer life expectancy, healthier. I mean, not all, like, but as a general trend, there— that can be applied to those. And so it's like, it's interesting to think about if that will be embraced. 'Cause I think, you know, the desecularization of our culture is something that has been happening for a while. And I think like everything, it's kind of like a tail, like an ebb and a flow. And I could see that flow kind of going back.

I have an investor friend, Will McKelvey. Do you know him?

No.

He's basically been working on a thesis for like the last year about how like the concept of religion is like the next big business opportunity.

Hilarious.

And you know who I connected him to was Zak Pogrob.

Really?

Uh, do you know Zach? He's big. Really? I'm shocked. Maybe he writes about obsession. He's a big fitness guy. He's got like a million and a half on Instagram or something.

Probably then.

But he's basically— his life's mission is to turn obsession into like a religion. The whole premise behind it is just like, yeah, yeah, all the greats go like all in, burn the boats, whether it's like Arnold Schwarzenegger, Elon Musk, whoever it is. Um, and my friend Will is like, he, he thinks that is like the next wave of these businesses. So I don't think you're actually You're not the only person who has this belief. I don't think there's many, but you're— I think there's other people who are seeing what you're seeing around this concept of just feeling some greater tie to some sort of spirituality or community-driven thing that I think, I think, uh, this might be a hot take, but I think that the concept of community, uh, can be interchangeable with religion for people who don't— who aren't religious, but they feel like a community is their tie to like something bigger than themselves.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's been very interesting to see what has taken the place of religion in our culture as religion has declined. I would argue sports fandom has like taken that and it's a—

Oh dude, I'm from Buffalo.

But it's a poor substitute. It's beautiful and I love it. But for that to be like an ethos of like, it's a lot to ask of a sporting franchise.

Because it ends in sadness 99.9% of the time.

Yeah, well, if you're a Jets fan, it's even more, it's even higher likelihood.

105%.

It ruins your weekend.

Yes.

Don't even get me started. But no, I think, so for me, I completely agree with you. And if you talk to Robbie, the founder of Othership, I mean, that's kind of what he's doing to some degree. I mean, there was a—

Objectively, I don't even think he's beating around the bush.

No, I mean, the article in like the Toronto Vogue or something recently was like the cult of wellness. And I think that's kind of, you can throw those words around and I think there's, it can be abused and there's bad ways to do it. But I think if you're coming at it, especially from Robbie's perspective, he's really coming at it from a great place and he's trying to, you know, cure loneliness. And he's, he's willing to build these like really meccas of, of places where people feel very connected, included, open. Um, we're gonna hopefully see more of that as, as the next couple years.

The first, the first, uh, experience I had at, um, Othership, I literally thought it was like Burning Man vibe.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like I was in a sauna with 90 people that were like sharing traumatic experiences in their life. And I was like, the fact that he's been able to make an environment where like strangers feel comfortable the first time they come here to just start bawling, sharing these traumas in their life, like clearly that's powerful.

Yeah.

I think a big part of that is like having like the in-person mecca, right? I'm a diehard Arsenal fan.

Yeah.

And whenever I go to the stadium in London once in a while, I'm like, these are like my brothers and sisters. Like there's that feeling. Same way you go to like a Buffalo game. And I think what's interesting about Othership, they've only been in New York a few months or something.

Yeah.

And whenever friends will say, hey, do you want to like go to Barry's or something or do you want to hit the gym? It's not like a convening place. It's just like, let's go get a workout.

Yeah.

Where Othership is so interesting because like you mentioned you go to an event, you mentioned you're throwing an event and a bunch of friends have said either they're throwing events or having things there. And it's not to go get a workout, even though that's the same thing you would do at a gym. It's to go like convene at a mecca, which is really interesting. And even of all like the in-person, you know, Barry's type workouts of the world, I've never gotten that feeling from any of them, let alone a gym as well, which is kind of like that in a way.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's ultimately what, where the world is going. And also if you're brand, if you're a brand who's not in the physical wellness space, I think, you know, this is, there's opportunities to, activate and connect to people through these events. And there's so many micro-communities like yours that are popping up, and there's so many opportunities to get yourself in front of people in authentic ways. And I think, you know, there's just— I don't know, man, the— if you're just like pay-to-play, it's, it's— you can get a long way, but it's— you can get a lot shorter than you used to. And so you really have to be creative. And, and I just, I, I think you're right that there's these physical connections are just going to keep on ramping up. And the question is, is can we, uh, will we be able to, will there be a winner take all or will it just be like kind of everybody will just find their own little mecca?

What do you think?

I think that, um, just like streaming television and just like Instagram, it's like, I don't think there'll be a winner take all. I think there's just enough distribution for specialization that there will be specialization.

Yeah. It's like, why does someone watch Instagram Reels instead of TikToks instead of YouTube Shorts?

Yes.

I meet someone who tells me which platform is their platform and I'm like, why? Yeah. Like there's no necessarily rhyme or reason. I think the reason that this is even a conversation worth debating is because having too many choices becomes fatiguing for people.

Yeah.

Right. So then when you think about longevity, if you're, if your community loses because all your people were fatigued by way too many options and then they kind of just pull back from everything, there's gonna be someone standing.

Yeah.

Or does it just become micro niche where like you're looking for something that's very hyper-targeted at what you care about and that's where you end up and then many can coexist.

Yeah, I'm with you. The way that I look at it is like, it's funny you mentioned longevity. Like, it'll be interesting to see how much brands in the wellness space are able to integrate with the existing healthcare system, right? Because I think ultimately, brand, you know, you can take off if you're covered by insurance. And the question is, when will that happen? And when will there be the traditional ways that people can go to the doctor and take care of it? I just am seeing a lot of erosion of trust in the traditional medical care system for particular things. I think that if you're sick, that's what they do and they can take care of you, but the prevention side of it, I don't know if you guys go to the doctor, sometimes you go to the doctor and they're like, well, you're not dying, so. See you later. And so, you know, everyone's taking it upon themselves to just, you know, go do Parsley Health or go do, you know, some other longevity solution and try to like, hey, how do I actually be proactive about this? Because I'm not interested in hitting a certain age, hitting a certain switch and getting X, Y, or Z.

It's well said. The healthcare system is very reactive.

Yeah.

And then you have all these like new age ways to take care of yourself. Those are more proactive.

Right.

And then the question is like when the rubber meets the road, does the healthcare system actually let them live on? Or does, you know, politics and Big Pharma come in and say, no, this isn't gonna happen?

Is this a political podcast? No, no, we're part two.

Don't—

yeah, yeah, we'll just get right into that. No, but I— yes, I think you're right. What's really cool is there's one company I will shout out that I think is, uh, you know, TrueMed. Have you guys heard of TrueMed? So I think, I think what they're doing is actually a great little—

but Justin Mayer's—

yes, Justin. So what they do, you know, they allow people to use pre-tax FSA or HSA dollars to pay for health and wellness services, and they're basically like They're writing a doctor's note, kind of like, um, you know, when people used to bring their service dogs on all airplanes and just like— so they're kind of doing that. Hey, there's nothing wrong with it, but, but, you know, she needed a note to do so. And, you know, these people are trying to bridge that gap because it's not fair that, you know, you can use your pre-tax dollars on sunscreen or you can use it on like some random device that's medical-oriented, but it's not on things that can help you prevent it. So I think companies like TrueMed and what they're doing are, are that nice bridge that I think is going to start to happen, and it's just going to get bridged closer. And we'll see what ends up happening.

Looking back at your journey, what would you say is the biggest turning pro moment you've had?

Yeah, I mean, so, uh, I mean, winning the, uh, winning the indoor 4x400 meter relay in high school, uh, in the New England was pretty cool. That was, that was like, I was, I was the anchor leg. Anyway, we just watched the Olympics. I was thinking of that. No, but, uh, no, I think that for me, the turning pro moment is, is starting my own business and, and you know, taking that leap. And even though that didn't work out the way I wanted it to, it was the full ownership moment and the putting myself out there. And it was so hard to hit send on that, like, initial post to everybody. And I think that that was just the start of a long journey in fear and stepping into fear and stepping into fear and stepping into fear. So I think whatever my first step was stepping into fear is, and I think that's probably it.

Hell of a place to wrap. This is great, man.

I really enjoyed talking to you guys. This is so fun.

Thank you for coming on.

Of course.

Can you talk to the camera on the left to tell people where they can find you on socials and your website?

Yeah, so you can find me at joinwgm.com, or you can find me on LinkedIn, Brian Von Anken. Maybe the spelling is right here or somewhere else, but yeah, LinkedIn or joinwgm.com, especially if you're a wellness founder or work in growth in the health and wellness space, I'd love to just connect. I love talking to new people.

Oh yeah, thank you, man.

No, thanks guys, this is great.

A wrap.