#077: How Ben Buaron Bootstrapped Windmill Growth from Side Hustle to 7 Figures

So I'm like, I said, okay, I got to start working on myself. And it become into more of a like a habits of self-care. This is the thing that changed the way I see and changed the way I treat my business because I was very stressed. Everything related to business made me very stressed. I was like never satisfied, never happy, felt always depressed if something didn't work well. So I said like, okay, how do I start working on myself? So I started doing a lot of meditation. Every single day. I'm journaling, I'm writing every single day. I'm working out almost every single, like, 5 times a week. And I'm taking care about the small stuff in my life and letting myself and my emotion be more vulnerable, open, and be part of, like, more present, I want to say. I was more focused in my actual day-to-day job. I spent less time on being freaked out or depressed or whatever. And then suddenly, like, in the Like, after a few months, I realized that, okay, like, my business is growing in like 70% in, in, in 2 months since I like, I care less, but not actually care less, and stress less.

Season 3, episode 20 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Ben Barone, the founder and CEO of Windmill Growth. Thanks for joining today, Ben.

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited, actually.

So for those of you listening, you probably don't know this, but Ben is my roommate.

Yeah. And here he didn't invite me.

Actually, Ben has been living here for the last 6 months or so.

Yeah, correct. 6 months.

And I wanted you to come on today because I've had a chance to intimately watch your journey. And I think it's a journey that a lot of other people would be interested to hear about and learn from. Honestly, you're supposed to be a lawyer in Israel.

I am.

You go to the IDF, become a lawyer, live the standard life, get married, have kids, stable income, and you gave that up and booked a one-way ticket across the world. Let's go back into that journey.

Yeah, so my dad always wanted me to be a lawyer, actually. I think that's like something that he always aimed for me to be a lawyer because he wanted to be one and he didn't get get a chance to be one because of like things that he's been through when he was a child. So he was always aiming me to be a lawyer, and I was pretty much like, sure, okay, I'm going to be a lawyer because that's what my parents wanted me to do. Um, so I signed up to like the university in Israel, like Reichman University, signed up, was like ready to roll. Um, 2 months before, uh, like the actual year started, I flew to Panama and Costa Rica for like 2 months just to clear my head. I had a lot of time thinking, like I had a lot of time like understanding exactly what I want to do. And I got to understand that it's just not for me at all. Like that's not something that I want to do. I was a nerd. I grew up as a nerd. I like software engineering since I was like 12 years old or something, building pages and web pages and every platform existed back then. So I like, told my dad, told my family, I'm canceling it. I'm not going to the, like, I'm not going to the university. And I got back to software engineering. They didn't get it, like, nicely at the beginning, but I think I made the right choice looking backward.

What was the moment like for you where you finally were ready to commit to giving up the path of going to law school? Because I know you also lost a lot of money in the process.

I did. I did lost a lot of money. I think the moment was when I got back from Panama. I've been 2 months, as I said, in Panama, Costa Rica. I got back, was still quarantined and like COVID and stuff. I got back, stayed at home for like 2 weeks of quarantine. And I just like sat there and I said, that's 100% not what I'm going to do right now. Like, that's not where I'm heading. And I started to understand exactly like, how do I get back into software engineering and like finding a real job? So I was like sitting in my room. I remember like this specific time I spoke with my cousin who just like, she was, she might even don't know it, but like she was my inspiration to do the shift. But she was a lawyer and she told me like, by the way, I just like found a new role as a software engineer and like I'm not a lawyer anymore. And I was like, why? And she said, just like not for me anymore. I was like, I don't want to be in this point like 6, 7 years from now. I don't want to, I don't want to wait to be a lawyer to understand that's not for me if I'm already feeling it right now. So I said, okay, I'm like, I'm getting off this train now because if I'll get off later, it'd just be a longer way back. So I just did it and I called the university, told them I'm not doing it. Called my dad. He was like devastated. My mom actually pretty took it like easily. She was like, go fuck around and find out. I trust you. But yeah, it was a wild ride back then, actually.

Well, I want to go back one step before that. You grew up in Israel. For those of you listening, that means you have to go to the IDF.

Correct.

I want to hear a little bit about that experience because I grew up with an Israeli father who also went into the IDF, who wanted me to go into the IDF. And my mom, my mom wasn't interested in that happening.

Yeah, my mom wasn't either.

So I've, yeah, but you have no choice when you're born and raised there. That's right. But I think there's probably a lot of stories from that experience that people would love to, to learn about, because I know I've talked to you about it and all my cousins have gone through it. And I feel like Israelis are forced to grow up so much faster.

Yeah.

And you become so much more independent so much faster because you have to go through this experience whether you like it or not.

Yeah. I think we spoke about it when I just like came here to the States. There was like a period of time whenever every like 16 to 18 years old in Israel. Like, here, probably when you're 16 to 18, you're like just applying colleges, right? Try to understand where you're going to study, where are you going to study, try to get like the best school, the best thing that you can do. So in Israel, it's like you're doing the same thing but for the army. Like, you're preparing for the army. You're just trying to get to the best unit you can, do the best like training a lot to the army. I was like a very chubby kid when I was younger. I was like a fat kid, um, still working on it. But yeah, I was like training a lot to the army because I knew that I wanted to be like combat something. I want to like, uh, lead people and I want to have my own community. So I trained a lot before, um, and then I got to the army. I was a combat engineer. Pretty quickly went to like officer's course. And like manage a platoon of 40 combat engineers. And I think that's like one of the things that I think the army, of course, 100% changed me and like lead me to the point that I am today. And I wouldn't be the same person without the army. Like, I'm giving it a lot of credibility and a lot to my commanders back then because I think there is something and I will talk about it more. I want us to talk about it more because that's like the thing that I can help other people to like understand. And I'm relating, I'm like connecting it to founder and entrepreneurship and everything we are doing in our day-to-day, it's habits. You know, all the army is built on habits, and we spoke about it several times, but like the way that you wake up at the same time every single day, do the same things in the morning, like in the same exact order. You have like, you wake up at 6 AM, 6:05 your bed is already clean and set up, 6:10 you already brush your teeth, 6:15 you're already on your, on your uniform, 6:20 you're already outside waiting in the same row, in the same spot, in the same, like every single day. Um, and the reason you're doing it is because you need to learn how to build habits. Like, we can spoke a lot about habits, uh, but like, that's the way you learn how to build your habits. And while you build your habits, it's easier for you to like obey commands and actually do what you need to do with like less thinking while you need to do it, you know. Because in the army there is a lot, you know, there's a lot of difference between the army and entrepreneurship because they're like really day to day under like you know, risk or something I can say, more risk. So you need to know how to act without thinking. That's, that's how I see habits. That's how I see like building habits, act without thinking about it.

But what about building habits when they're habits that you choose to build versus habits that in some ways are forced upon you?

I think there is like, of course there is a difference. But once you treat a habit as something that you're like, okay, this is something that I want to do, like this is something that I want to like make sure it's a good habit of mine and like I'm taking care of it. It doesn't matter, like, if somebody is being forced or not, because you're treating it like you against yourself.

Yeah, but take the army, for example. I guess my example for you would be if you told yourself when you're living on your own, I'm gonna wake up at 6 AM every day, I'm gonna make my bed at 6:05, I'm gonna shower at 6:10, I'll be ready out the door at 6:20. In the army, if you weren't out there at 6:20, you probably have repercussions. If you're still sleeping at 6:30 in your normal life, like there's not really going to be like—

nothing happened besides that you're letting yourself down.

Yeah. So I'm saying how— what's your philosophy or thought on what it's like to build habits when you have like an external pressure of an accountability layer where you know you have to do it or you have repercussions external versus breaking habits that might have like internal repercussions?

So I think there is like the repercussions that everything you're mentioning is like really short-term solution. Also in the army, because like you can once not wake up at 6:30, so you will get like, I don't know, you will go home like one day after everyone. You'll like stay another day in the army, okay? Like this is something that can be punished for. And like you will learn it, and the second time you'll do it, you'll get like, like worse thing and worse and worse. But eventually like someone will figure out a solution, or you will be like just someone will throw you away from like your unit or whatever. But like It's a short-term solution, not something that like holds for long-term solutions. So if we're talking about long-term solution, it's a lot about the commanders in the army that they need to build purpose. They need to build a purpose for their soldiers. Okay. That's how army and like in general, this type of thing works. You need to build purpose at your people. So if we're talking about things like being forced on me or things that I'm building on myself, again, it's purpose. So if my purpose is to be like, I don't know, we were talking about waking up at 6 a.m. and going to the gym every single day. So if my purpose I want to have, like, as part of the thing that I want to, uh, uh, as I see myself, or as I like, I know that is like part of me is, is like someone who works out, take care of his body, want to make sure that I'm like in my best shape in everything I'm doing, like doing my best, absolute best in everything, then this is my purpose and that's what I'm taking on to myself. So like, as I said, if it's something that being forced at the beginning, like the very short time at the beginning, it could be like I can be afraid of being punished or everything related to it, but like, if I'm taking it to the long term, it's all about the purpose. And it's also against like something I'm doing it for myself. It's about my purpose. So yeah, I won't stay another day in the army, but I will let myself down and I won't serve my purpose. Yeah.

And you feel like you went through the army and then thought that someone else was telling you what your purpose was supposed to be in life, like going to law school, and that was kind of the moment you realized you had a greater purpose in this world?

Um, you know, greater, it's like subjective, so like everyone can, can, can treat it by their own. But I think like my— the, the point that I realized, it was after the army. That was like the most life-changing point in my life, actually. I was working with my dad after I got released from the army. My dad has a gym, so I was working with my dad for like 8 months, uh, at the gym. I was like managing it like client communication, everything like we're doing today in like SMB type of stuff. And then I got to the point I was like thinking I was always depressed back then. Like I was depressed. I was not happy. Did the same thing over and over again, but something that doesn't serve my purpose. I was like, okay, I'm like doing it, but it's not something I want to do. So why? I got like, I started to think about myself, like, why am I doing what I'm doing? What's the purpose? Again, I think that purpose is one of the most important things in life. And so I got to a point when I was like, okay, I'm living a life right now that it's not something that I want to do. And by the end of the day, if I want to live— like, I'm the only person who's responsible for my result, like, for my outcome, for the way I want to live my life. Like, if I don't want to be a lawyer, if I don't want to do something and my dad wanted me to do it, like, I will live my life with it. And my dad can be happy or not with it, but that's my life. So when I, when I worked with my dad and I was, I wasn't happy about it, like I just did it because I wanted to make him happy, to make him satisfied, because that's something that he always wanted. Um, and I got to the point I was like, okay, just like fuck it, I'm, I'm leaving everything. I'm going to like 2 months in Panama and Costa Rica. I want to reevaluate my life. I want to think what I want to do. And then when I got back, everything got started. But like this was the moment, and my dad was, he's They didn't like it at all. Like, to be honest, he didn't like the fact that I'm just leaving him and going and flying for like a few months.

Oh, I know what it's like to tell an Israeli father that you're not going to your corporate job.

I've been there. Corporate job or based on his dream or like based the way that they think about it. So this was the point when I realized that I'm the only one who is responsible for my life. I'm the only one who is responsible for my results, for my outcomes, for the thing that I'm going to achieve or not achieve in my life. I'm the only one who is responsible for it. So this like was a life-changing moment for me when I was like, I'm not— and I used to be a very like, I used to be a satisfying person. I tried to satisfy everyone around me instead of like looking at myself. And this one was one of the most like the first points in my life that I said like, I'm prioritizing myself here and I'm, I need this like traveling and whatever. And so I'm going to do it. And yeah.

How did your appetite for risk change when you realized that you were going to start living a life for yourself versus one for others?

No, I was, I'm an addict. Like, I'm addicted to risk regardless. When I knew what I'm going to be, a lawyer, it was like, still, I'm going to be a lawyer, and right after the bar, I'm going to open my own firm. So like, that's not— I'm not going to be like— I knew it that I'm going to be like entrepreneur and founder regardless of something. But just law, it just feel less for me. So I don't think like— I always liked risk. I always like to like risk everything I have, do whatever I have with the cards I've been dealt with. So I don't think it's like changed it that much, to be honest.

And I want you to tell the people listening how you ended up in New York City and at this apartment, because I think it's a pretty— it's a pretty crazy story.

It is. I know Ben, 3 years now, almost 3 years now. So I've been in a— I've been— I worked as a software engineer in Tel Aviv in a startup. And we had clients from Jersey. So I really pushed us to like go to the— we worked for like 10 months on the project, like huge project. And I really pushed us to go to here, like come here to New York to do the deployment, like to go to production, to go live. So whenever I— we decided to— I came here to New York, did a production, worked for like 2 weeks and then stayed for another 2 weeks of like a vacation sort of. And one of my colleagues, he's actually your cousin, Aviv. And we— I told him, like, I want to meet Ben. Like, I don't know why, but that's what I said. I said— I told him, like, I want to meet Ben. Let's sit down for dinner. And then he texted you and we were like, meeting, sat for dinner. And actually, it was a great dinner. It was like communicative. And I was just before like moving to Europe. If you remember, I was just like before moving to Europe. And I told her, listen, like, I like it here. I kind of want to be here. So let's stay in touch and see like how it's going. But like, I like it here and I like New York and I want to build in New York and I want to work in New York. Back then I was just, I was a software engineer. I didn't have like my startup or something, but I knew that I want to come to New York. So like we kept in touch. We stayed in touch for like 2 years, really like, you know, story or something, Instagram story or whatever. And then randomly, I was like, a bit bored, was a bit bored in my job in Cyprus. And I was like, okay, I'm going to build a startup. Like, that's what I'm going to do right now. So things led to another. I'm sure that we'll speak about it, but like, things led to another. I got like back in touch with you. We spoke more. I told you that I'm coming to New York. And like, you know, the rest is history.

Yeah, I mean, I think the second part of this story is crazy. And I also think it's the epitome of entrepreneurship. To me. Um, the, the backstory of it is in the midst of building Platter, I had zero marketing budget and was trying to figure out ways to growth hack distribution on LinkedIn because LinkedIn is our strongest acquisition channel. Um, like everyone, like everyone.

Yeah.

And so I had this idea for a marketing hack which is basically like a done-for-you engagement pod, I guess the easiest way to describe it. And So I started talking to Elliot, my head of growth, about this. Like, I have this idea. And as I was thinking about it, I was like, wait a minute, this, this isn't just like a marketing strategy for Platter. Like, I think this is actually a company.

Yeah.

So when I started talking to Ben, I was like, Ben, look, I know you want to be a startup. I know you want to be in New York City. I know you're eager to find something, start your own idea, join a startup, whatever it is. I have this idea. I don't have time to run it, but I think it has legs. Like, you can take it and run with it if you want. So Ben would work every single night while he was in Cyprus on what started as just like this simple little idea. And one thing led to the next, quit his job, booked a one-way ticket to New York City, was couch surfing for a couple months. The stars aligned. My previous roommate had to move out for personal reasons. Ben moved in and the rest is history.

And now you're describing it like super quick. And it was like, it was a, You know, it was a tough process, of course. Obviously we can talk more about it, but I just sort of like when we spoke, when you spoke about it right now, I just remember the first sale I've done back then. It was like, I think it was May or something, May last year. And I was like, that's insane that someone actually paid dollar, like was a bit more than a dollar, but like paid a dollar for my services or for what I'm doing. And there is legs here. Like I can build something here. It was like the first one was like, I think we did like $1,500. Second month, like $9K. Third, like $14K. $20K the fourth or fifth month. Like, I don't remember exactly, but it was like exponential at the beginning. And I was like, I'm going all in. There is no way that I'm not going all in. And then everything led to what you said.

Yeah, I want to talk about that journey because I also think, and I've laughed about this, for a while now because you're a first-time founder. I don't think you had a clue about the success that you had, as if, like, it's not normal is basically what I'm trying to say. Like, you are—

That's normal to me right now. That's—

By the time this episode goes live, you'll probably have passed a million, whatever. Yeah, $2 million. A million dollars in annual recurring revenue in under 12 months. Bootstrapped. And I remember every single day you would be disappointed because you weren't closing enough deals, you weren't making enough revenue. And I was like, you need to be patient for like a few days.

Yeah.

And trust yourself. And now you look back and you're like, holy shit, I've done something that a lot of people will never have a chance to do.

I'm not looking— I'm not looking at it like this still. Like, you know, I'm— we're right now, we're doing like I think $950,000 or something, almost to $1 million.

I mean, can you explain for those listening what the business actually is?

Yeah, sure. So Windmill basically help founder build their personal brand, grow their startup, grow their— like improve their go-to-market through LinkedIn and basically growth hack their engagement and their profile activity through content engagement data. And now we're doing also ads. So we're like adding a lot of services. We're building a lot of tech and SaaS tool behind the scenes to like optimize our internal. And soon to release a lot of external tools for other users. But that's basically what Windmill does. That's how it started. That's how we started and like developed throughout the months. So what was the question before? Sorry.

I was just talking about you being like naive to what it takes to build a startup, given it was your first time. And then you didn't realize that what you were doing is like very not normal and you always wanted more.

I think I'm still naive and I still always want more, you know, like I'm getting this like your vibe, like the way you see it. And it's like, this is— but like, that's for me normal right now, right? This is like what I did so far. It's normal. I still always want more. That's like— and that's, I think that's something that represents all the founders, you know? That's something that we all have. We always want more clients, better clients, bigger clients, more sales, better operation. Like, if we wouldn't have it, we wouldn't be able to like scale ourselves. We wouldn't be able to like grow the company as we do it and like wake up every single morning with a purpose to keep doing it. Because otherwise it was like, okay, I'm making $1 million a year right now. The company makes $1 million. We're like, I'm getting my salary right. By the end of the year, I'll probably make like, like a couple hundred in like profit and I will decide what I want to do with it. But like, if that was my mindset, I wouldn't like— I would never be able to like scale it to like $5 million, $10 million in the next few years. Like, I'm always trying to push it more. And yeah, maybe it's not— it's maybe naive because, like, of the time that it happens, but I'm trying, you know, our biggest— my biggest enemy is like comparing myself to others because that also gives me drive, also set me back. Like, I can compare myself to my friends who make like $4 million in 2 years or something like this, and then I was like, okay, I'm lame. Or I can compare myself to other people that are like doing less, and then I feel a bit better about it. But I'm trying to avoid it as much as I can because my journey and my path is different than your journey and your path and other people's journey and path. Um, yeah, so I want to talk about your personal journey a little bit. Okay.

Because I think the business journey is one thing, but I had the opportunity to watch you go through a roller coaster of emotions at a personal level.

Definitely.

Um, and I think there were elements of time, which is natural, where like your personal well-being was correlated with how your business was doing, but I also think there was a moment in time where you realized that you had to make a personal commitment to yourself, uh, irrespective of the success of the business. And I think in spirit of the podcast being called Turning Pro, just thinking about like the moments in your life where you feel like you took things to the next level. From my perspective as your friend and roommate, I feel like your growth on a personal level is maybe more impressive to me than what you've done in the business. But I want you, I want to talk about that a little bit in terms of like, what was the moment you realized that you're turning pro moment? Yeah, you're turning pro moment at a personal level because I've noticed a big change in how you live your life.

Oh, first of all, I'm happy to hear it because I feel a bit like major change in the way I live my life. So I'm happy to hear it. Um, I think as I said, there is like two turning pro moments in my life. The first one was the point that I told to my dad that I like, I'm going to Panama and Costa Rica and I'm not going to like law school. That was the first turning pro moment in my life because I prioritized myself and not other people's satisfaction. And the second one was when I got to the point that I realized that my happiness and my, like, mental state, my joy, happiness, or everything I'm doing is really depending on the business. And this is something that, like, every founder should avoid. And what do I mean by that? Like, in the last few months, I'm hearing everywhere, every single— in every single, like, podcast, interview, ads, or something, every founder is speaking Speaking about the obsession, right? Everyone like, I'm obsessed to my business. I want to be obsessed. I want to be obsessed. Like, and being obsessed is important. Being obsessed is important. It's smart because you want to always improve and you always want to be better. But there is something in obsession, and I'm obsessed to everything I'm doing. Like, everything I do, I'm obsessed with because that's something that like really represents me. But there is something of like a person— of not a person, actually, like when all my life was my business, I would, I would like, I was never happy because there's always issues in your business. There's always issues with like with clients, with employees. You need, you always need more. You always like having some churn from time to time or like something doesn't work for you or, or like, I don't know, you're having a bad day with yourself or with your one of your employees and it reflects to your whole life. And then you're getting into this roller coaster that you spoke about. And in the beginning of startups, like, that's like nature of business. The roller coaster are faster. You have like higher highs and like lower lows. That's usually how it goes for me, for at least. So I got to the point, I was like, okay, like, I love the business, I care about the business, but I cannot live only by the business. So I got to a point where I said like, okay, fuck it, I'm focusing also on myself. And I'm—

what was there? Sorry to cut you off. Is there a moment in time where something happened that prompted you to make that decision?

Um, yeah, I think it was when I was in Mexico actually, a few months ago.

Shout out to the Founders Club, Aaron Spivak, Chris Meads. Yeah, you guys changed Ben's life.

Yeah, I think it was like a bit before I was starting to think of like, okay, I'm not experiencing— like, I thought to myself, I'm not experiencing like regular life. Like, no way that everyone lives with this roller coaster of life. Like, there is no way that it's like sustainable because I'm like, 2 days I'm the most— the happiest person on earth, and the other 2 days I'm like fucking depressed in my room. And what the fuck do I do? Um, so I was like, I started to understand more and like listening to more podcasts, understanding that I'm not alone in this situation. There was a lot of people who were experiencing it. Um, then I went to Mexico, to Tulum, to the Founders Club retreat. And they spoke a lot there about like working on yourself, understanding like your circle, building your circle, detachment from your business, setting up your personal goals before your business goals. And then you get to a point of like, okay, my life is built from multiple pieces. It's not only business, right? And if I'm treating my life as my business and that's the only thing I'm doing, as we all know, like founders, that that's the only thing they do, right? And it's great because in the short term, it always serve the business goals and like you're getting more money or more revenue and everything related to it. But we all also heard about the stories when the founder sold this company for like 9 figures and then he's depressed and doesn't know what to do with this money. So that's my biggest nightmare. Like, that's, this is something that I'm avoiding and adding at any cost. I'm not going to be there. Um, so I'm like, I said, okay, I gotta start working on myself. And it, it become into more of a like a habits of self-care. This is the thing that changed, man. Change the way I see, to change the way I treat my business. Because I was very stressed. Everything related to business made me very stressed. I was like never satisfied, never happy, felt always depressed if something didn't work well. So I said like, okay, how do I, how do I start working on myself? How do I start work on myself? So I started doing a lot of meditation. Every single day I'm journaling, I'm writing every single day. I'm working out almost every single, like 5 times a week. And I'm taking care about this small stuff in my life and letting myself and my emotion be more like vulnerable, open, uh, and be part of like more present, I want to say. And once I got to the point that like I care about how I feel and I care about my emotions and I, and I understand more in depth why do I feel how I feel, just detached me from the business a bit, just like pushed it a bit, but in a good way. Because I think if you push too much something, it just like you push it too much and then it's just not for the— not for the— like, it doesn't serve you for the right— for the best, best side.

Yeah, for the right reasons.

For the right reasons.

We're working on Ben's English.

Yeah, and put on my French. Um, so wait, yeah, so whenever you're pushing something too hard, you're just like— you're making yourself basically— you're, you're— how do I say it? Like, Whenever you're trying to overpush something, you're just pushing it away and just doesn't serve your purpose. That's something, that's what I want to say. So I understood it like, okay, maybe I need to like a bit be less stressed and like more of a focus on myself. And I will like, of course the business is like the most important part of my life and like I'm doing it and that's, it wouldn't affect the business, but like I should just be less stressed. Like I should not care less, but just freak out less, spend less time on freaking out, spend less time of being depressed, spend less time because this time I'm going to use it to work on myself. And it got to the point I was like, I feel more— I was more like, was more sure about the business. I was more focused in my actual day-to-day job. I spent less time on being freaked out or depressed or whatever. And then suddenly, like in the— like after a few months, I realized that, okay, like my business is growing in like 70% in 2 months since I like, I care less, but not actually care less. I stress less. And this was like a major channel. I was like, okay, this is exactly what people are talking about when they're saying detaching from your business.

Have there been moments of self-talk where like, at least in the beginning of this process where you would get anxious or worried that you're not giving enough to the business because that's what you were so accustomed to doing for so long. And then all of a sudden I realized that my roommate has a 2.5-hour morning routine. Like, you never had one moment during that where you're like, I probably should start working right now?

Um, probably every single day. It probably happens every single day. Uh, when I was like, do I do enough? Do I— does— like, is it enough, or should I like do more? But then I always like— my— you said like my morning routine is like 3 hours.

You know what's crazy is because it's a hot topic, this whole topic of like morning routine. I know like Alex Hormozy talks about this all the time.

He said like, he's like, you could just wake up and work.

Like, you don't need to cold plunge, meditate, red light, journal, blah blah, blah, blah. Um, you like, you actually do like a lot of these things every single morning consistently. And it blows my mind because I've tried, I, I've done like versions of it. I think there's certain habits that I've maintained. It ebbs and flows. I can never stick with all of it. And I think the best thing I realized in the process of it is ultimately just like find what works for you.

Exactly. That's—

and I think that's really underrated because I think a lot of times certain narratives get pushed on people where then it's perceived as like, if you don't do this, you're doing it wrong, and if you are doing this, you're doing it right. But the truth is you can find someone who built a massive business who drinks Diet Coke every day and doesn't exercise, and you can find someone who meditates and journals for 3 hours every morning and eats healthy and built a big business.

Yeah.

So there's not like a right or wrong answer. Oh, hey, welcome.

This is my dog. Uh, yeah.

If you're not watching on YouTube, we have a cocker spaniel who's our third roommate.

Yeah.

Um, do you want to say something?

No. Okay.

Um, no. What I was saying though is that I think I'm interested to know, number one, like what that path was like getting to a place where you don't, you feel comfortable doing it every day. And then the second piece of it is when it becomes so rigid, like how do you think about moments where you're forced to change your morning because something comes up and do you feel like you're all outta sorts now? Cause you didn't get a chance to like meditate?

Yeah. Cute, but no. So I think first of all, you said it in like the best way possible. You should just find what works for you. Okay. If my morning routine would include drinking that Coke and start working and that would serve my purpose and I feel good with myself, that's what I would do. But it's not. It doesn't help me. It doesn't fit my problem. It doesn't solve my problem. So I'm not doing it. So first of all, got to find what works for you. Uh, and the second thing that I want to talk about is habits. As we— as I said before, like, when I was in the army, I was built on habits. That's how I trained, that's how I grew up, that's the thing that I've done. Um, and I was like, I, I am— I'm a true believer that your morning sets up your whole day. Like, the way you treat in your morning, the way you like to do your bed, the way that you're like waking up, talk to yourself, meditate, pray, do whatever you want in the morning, that will definitely set up your whole day to success if you're doing it right.

How do you feel about people who don't make their bed in the morning?

Give me the ick, but you know, same. Uh, I don't know, I'm just— that's the first thing I'm doing. And, and, and I didn't do it before the army, to be honest. Like, the army actually, like, you have very specific way that you fix, like, do your bed in the morning. Um, so it's like, for me, it's very important, like, as a person. And, and, and it's habits that you build, right? It's habits that you build, and you're like, you're improving them, and you're adjusting them based on what works for you. So my morning, I like, I wake up at 7, go for 30 minutes walk with Bono after I finished everything, come back home, drink my coffee with the same breakfast, go to gym, go like working out, getting back, praying, showering, meditating, journaling.

And then we're like, Bono, Bono, it's okay.

Hey, come here.

We're filming a podcast, stop barking.

So it was like, it's 3, between 3 to 3.5 hours depending on like how long the workout is. But just sets me up to like, sets me up to success because I'm like calmer. I can work more focused. I can have my own like, I know that I did what I want to do in this day. Like I checked my boxes. There is like very smart, there is like, it's very important to check your boxes every single day. Like this is habits. That's what habits is built on. You gotta understand, okay, what do I want to achieve in this specific day and every other day? And like check your boxes to make sure that you're following a habit. So if you have a day, for example, you remember like a week ago, week and a half ago, I went skiing for one day and we were like, I was up 5 AM. All of my morning routine was changed because I didn't pray, I didn't meditate, didn't journal, didn't do anything. But I like, okay, this day is different than others. Right? There is like, there's something that I'm always doing is like, understand that there is some days that life will change. Life will change. I wouldn't, I won't wake up in my bed. Something will happen. I will wake up earlier, later, whatever. So something will happen that I will have to adjust myself, but I have to make sure that the day after I'm getting back to routine. So like I have the 2 days, 2 days rule that you cannot skip something 2 days in a row. Okay. You understand? That's something that really helped me. And I read it through Atomic Habits. Habits. Actually, this book I read it like 3 years ago, completely changed my life. It's basically help you build better habits. And like on all the information and knowledge that I have from the army, I was aligned to like build my habits in the right way I want. So like I have the 2 days rule. I'm never skipping something 2 days in a row because if I skip 2 days in a row, I will probably never get back to it. I'm very like, I'm very total. Like if I'm doing something, it's all in. And if I'm not doing it, it's also all in.

What are your thoughts on moderation?

Like trying to like it?

Like it doesn't have to always be all or nothing because I talk to my therapist about this all the time because I'm the same.

I think it's depending, depending on like what type of person you are.

I think it's very common for entrepreneurs.

Yeah.

I don't really know many founders who don't have like an all or none mentality because at one point in your life you're like, I'm going to jump in and do this thing.

And because it's easier for me to like go make, I don't know, like $250K in like a software engineer or product manager role right now. Like live my life in between. But I don't want to do it. I want to do all in. I want to do everything I have. I want to put everything I have right now to make sure that I will reach my goal and serve my purpose. So like, I think it's very entrepreneurial and very founder vibe to do like all in or nothing. But I don't think it's like the, like the best way of living. Like, I don't think for a long term it's like the best way of us to live. We will suffer it from in the future, and I'm sure about it.

There's one thing, uh, I want to touch on, which is that you pray every morning.

Yeah, I do.

You rap to fill in?

It's new. It's new.

How much does it cost to rap to fill in?

$0. Thank you. Shout out Aaron Spivak again. Um, yeah, I, I started like, I'm not a religious guy at all. Like, I don't— my family was religious when I was younger, but like last 20 years I'm not religious at all. I'm like not celebrating all holidays. Like, I'm Jewish, but I don't know why, I just got to the point, this was in the same part of understanding myself, turning pro moment and everything that I've been through. I was like, I feel that I'm having a lot in my life and a lot is going on, but I never say thank you. I'm never like gratitude about what I'm having. Always like, okay, what's next step? And again, this is something that's very like, it's very like described by entrepreneurs, right? Because it was always like, what's next? What we should improve? What we should do? But we never stop and say thank you about what we were doing. Uh, and of course all of us like, uh, sharing posts on LinkedIn and like, grateful for my team or grateful for everything, but it's not actual gratefulness. It's not something that you like actually practice. So like one habit that I'm doing every single morning in my meditation, I'm saying what I'm grateful for. Like I'm actually saying it. Uh, and when I'm praying, I have like, you have the normal prayer that you have to, uh, say and like under the fill-in-the-gap, but afterwards I have like usually 2 to 5 minutes that I'm like First of all, saying thank you for everything I'm having, like in a way, in a very free speech, saying thank you for everything I'm having, for the challenges that I've been through, for the like ups and downs that God or higher purpose, you name it, like makes you go through. But whenever you treat as like the downsides or the bad times or like your issues in life or everything you're going through, like a practice of, okay, thank you, you know, I'm thankful for it. That's what will make me better tomorrow morning. And you really believe in it, everything is like easier because you set yourself up to success whenever all the odds against you. And whenever you change this mindset of like being thankful for the hardest parts. And like I always tell you, whenever the business is good and whenever like we're crushing it and I'm making like a lot of money and like closing new deals, I'm focusing on fulfilling and building operation. But whenever the business is not crushing it, or like we're having churn, or we're having issues with client acquisition, or the sales calls and the close rate isn't good enough, we're focusing on improving the business. So you can, you can treat it both ways. But like, if you will stick only on fulfilling and operation, you will never grow your business to the point that you want to have. So you got to have these hard times and like the tougher, tough times to build your business better and improve it. So that's how I see life as well.

I want to actually talk about something specific around the challenges building your business. Which is moving to the States and trying to sell something.

That was insane.

Trying to sell something with an accent. I think it's a very underrated challenge that foreigners deal with. Um, because I joke that I grew up with an Israeli father who speaks broken English the way that you do. So I understand everything that you're trying to say, but that's not always the case when you get on sales calls. So I actually want to like understand that a little bit in terms of like your challenges with just getting accustomed to like the culture here, uh, as you were trying to sell for your own business?

So at the beginning, I was struggle— I was struggling to sell for like, you know, $300 a month ticket, like sales ticket. Now I'm selling $8K, $9K, $10K a month deals. And like, it's easier for me to sell like the $300 back then. But the reason it's easier for me, it's not because I improved my English and I worked on my English. The reason it's easier for me is because I worked on myself. You know, that's, that's the difference. When I was in the Founders Club retreat, we spoke about limiting beliefs. That's like part of the thing that we've done. We spoke about limiting belief. And I'm always sharing and I'm very like open with other people. So Aaron back then asked who wants to share his limiting belief. And my limiting belief was that I'm sure that my English blocked my business growth. That was like my limiting belief. And then I was like starting to get a lot of like weird faces from everyone. Like people look at me weirdly, like, what the fuck are you talking about? And I was like, yeah, that's how I feel. I feel like my English blocks my business growth. And then Aaron went me through like some practice that he's asking me questions and I'm responding and like we're going through it and like if someone else would say it, would you believe him or whatever? And then, and then we got to the point that I was like some people just voluntarily stand up when I said it, and they were like, I just want to tell you that everything you said right now makes no sense for me. And I'm hearing you talking for the last few days, and your English is great, and you talk with confidence. And like, I would buy everything you sell because the way you talk and the way you act, and not because you're English. And then there was a lot of like small talks and conversation that I spoke with other people, and I understood like my English accent, everything I'm going through, that's my, that's my specialty. Like, that's my, that's my, my difference, and I should use it in like in the best way. But I should believe it, and I should use it in the best way possible. And like, I should work on, on my English and everything I'm doing to improve it, because it's harder to like communicate all day in English, you know. It's not easy when it's not your, um, first language. But whenever you're understanding that this is your Yeah, like you're also your game changer. Your thing that you can like improve and work on, it's a completely different game. Like you're feeling about it differently and then it's not blocks you anymore, just serves you. It more serves you.

What would be your advice to someone listening who's in denial about the fact that they have limiting beliefs that are preventing them from getting to where they want to go?

I think until you will be at the point, I think you should hit a rock bottom before you can like actual work on your limiting beliefs, in my opinion. I think you should like a bit suffer, and then you're understanding, okay, I'm limiting myself, what's going on? And then you should have like someone who can help you go through it. Like I did it with Aaron, I did like, and everyone can go into YouTube and like say and search like how to work on your limiting beliefs. It's pretty easy to like understand it. But there is a lot of stuff that we're going through and we just don't know it. That it's like limits us. Exactly like my English. I was like, sure, yeah, people will hear my accent, will ask for a discount. And it makes sense. But like the amount of people who ask discount because in general was like half a percent of like the people that I spoke with. So it's probably not that, right? Probably because of other stuff that happened that I didn't succeed selling at the beginning. So I think it's like, again, my English is not perfect and I'm working on it because I care and I want to be better in English. But I'm not thinking that it blocks my, my business growth anymore. That, that was a major change for me.

I want to go back to talking about the army because I, I think there's more that I want to unpack there. I don't know what you're actually allowed to say on record versus what you're not, um, but there's definitely a couple stories that you've told me where I was like, what the fuck? Uh, are any of those allowed to be shared publicly?

It is, but I think like I'm trying to understand, like, in what way do you want to, like, to what way, what direction you want to take it, you know? Because we can talk about, like, I think that, like, being obeyed and, like, making sure that other people answer you or, like, do what you ask them because of your, uh, uh, um, ranking or something. I was an officer, so I had a lot of, a lot of authority. So I can, I can use this power to make people listen to me, but again, it's short-term solution. But if you're making people understand your purpose and what you— why, why they're doing what they're doing, it's easier for all of you guys. So like, what direction do you want to take this?

Well, so there's two, there's two pieces that I'm thinking about. The first one is just touching on like the experience there that you've brought over into running your own business, because I made the comment to you how I, I feel like your employees just like love building your business more than like most of my other founder friends. And I'm like, was trying to understand like where that feeling comes from. And I think a lot of it comes from like this feeling of empowering others in the army, like making you believe in yourself, uh, like some, giving belief to someone if they don't believe in themselves and a lot of the cultural things that you took from the army. So that's the first one. Uh, the second piece is understanding from your perspective why Israeli founders are just like the most badass type of founders building companies. And then the third one is I want to talk about the Mossad to the extent that we can, because you told me some things that I just, feel like there's curious people listening who would be shocked.

Yeah, I think I hope someone won't like, you know, I hope I wouldn't make issues for me in the future, but I'm not working in the Mossad, so I care less. So the first thing was that we want to, it was about my employees that care about everything. So I think I just, I'm going to share about it. So I'm like, One of my recent hires jumped on a call. She's like offshore talent, and we jump on a call. And the first call that I met her, and she was like, hey boss, I'm super nervous. I'm afraid, like, I'm intimidated by our conversation. I was like, that's not how I want to run my business, right? So in the army, you're learning that you're working with people and like, it feels they're soldiers because we all wear uniforms and like, we do the same things over and over again. And like, they have to do what you're saying. And like, I want to say, like, the worst officers or the worst commanders treat their soldiers as soldiers and not as humans. So I think I'm taking a lot to my business management because I really care about every single employee I have, even if it's like offshore EA or VA that I'm like working with for a week, a month. I really care about them and I really go in depth with them. So I know about what they're doing, their personal status, if they need any help with something, if someone has like a marriage or something like this, I really care about it. And I show them that I care and I'm asking them questions to make sure they understand that they are valuable. Because whenever someone feels valuable and appreciated, he cares more about what he does. He or she, of course. So I think like one of the most important stuff that I'm doing in my business right now is developing the ownership. And the way that my employees feel that they're appreciated with what they're doing. So nothing, I'm not taking anything for granted. I'm not like working or like expecting them to do stuff that I wasn't communicating and then getting mad at them. There's like a very common founder thing to like expect everyone to understand it without communicating it correctly, right? We all do it. Like I'm trying to avoid this type of stuff. I'm trying to be very clear in my communication and that's why I expect for them. And whenever, whenever you work with people in a very humanized level, a very human level, you can fix the, um, in a very human, humanized level, just easier for them to care more and like be more part of the process. Um, so yeah, now I'm at the point, and thanks, you know, gratitude for that as well. I'm grateful for it now. But I'm at the point that my employees really care And like, we're 10 months, 11 months almost in the building. Touch wood.

Touch wood. I love that. Knock on wood.

Knock on wood. Knock on wood. Yeah. Like, you have zero churn in employees. Like, every employee wants to stay more. We fired someone who didn't, like, you know, kept up, keep up. But like, all the employees we had stayed and we're working with all of them still. And like, they want to work more and they want to grow more because we grow. Whenever I grow, I grow the people with me. That's one of the things that I learned. Throughout my career. So yeah.

And then the second part of my question was, why are Israeli founders built different?

I think because we used to, like, in the army part, you're just living in— you just grew up in a very, like, uh, um, different environment than here. Okay. I hear a lot of Israelis come here, and whenever they're coming to the US, and like, everyone here is soft, everyone here is like, they're not going through— because we grew up And again, there is like a lot of savages, like American founders and like, there's a lot of people, it's really depending on like how you grow up. But I think we just grew up in a way of like, you have to do it. You know, you have to go to the army, you have to do it. Like there is no other way, you build and you grow up in a way that like, there is a lot of like extreme stuff and extreme situation like wars and things that you're going through whenever you grow up. So it's easier for you to be adjusted to edge case scenarios. It's easier for you to behave and act in unknown situations. So if it reflects to our business, in general, in business management, we usually operate and work without knowing if this is the right thing to do right now or not. But I feel that I'm more comfortable than others to act under, how would you say it? Pressure. Pressure, for sure. Pressure. Under— if I don't know if that's the right thing to do right now, I have more like, uh, I'm more secure about my decision.

Conviction in your decision.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Because I have more like, I know that I will figure it out and I'll fuck around and find out. And that's like, that's like, that's life for me right now. So it's not always about being 100% sure that everything will be fine. I just trust myself that I will fuck around and find out. Um, but it's something that's like, you know, developed in my personality since I was a child because I had some you know, I saw some wars, I've been in wars. So like, just changed the way I see life.

Yeah. And I think, um, one of the really cool parts about our relationship, for better or for worse, was like the amount of time we spent together in the midst of the war that just happened. That's still going on. But October 7th, uh, obviously a very important moment in history and also something that's very meaningful to both of us.

Bring them home as soon as possible.

Yeah, 100%. I agree. I think one of the mo— one of the conversations that we had that I think really opened up my eyes that I think people listening would be fascinated by is the correlation between how long you're in war and then how you become like a stronger army the longer you're in war because of the technological advancements that happen in the midst of all this.

Yeah.

So I wanted to touch on that a little bit because I think it's such a fascinating concept that I was very unaware of. But can you shed light a little bit on like why that is the way that it is.

Like, why when you— like, why when you operate more, you're like—

we had that conversation on the roof one time about how when you're in war for so long, like, you're so dialed in and you're forced to evolve versus like when you're sitting on the sidelines not actively in war, it's like you're just waiting and like you can make up like fake scenarios to be ready for it. Yeah, but it would— the, the anecdote we talked about was like the pilots in the Air Force, right? Like we have the Israelis. Yeah.

Yeah. I think it's very much like business actually, when I'm thinking about it in that way. It's like very much like whenever you're training, like there is no way for you right now, if I'll like work with you and like I'll be your mentor right now or whatever, or you'll be mine, you'll try to simulate me, let's say like a client relationship or a sales call or something like this, right? You'll try to simulate me. You're trying to understand, stimulate, like make me understand what I'm going to go through. Through. But the moment you will actually learn is whenever you will hear nos and whenever things will fucked up and you wouldn't like, you will fail and you will learn from your success and your failures and like actually go through the stuff in your hands and like walk the walk. So I think this is like something that is like really, right now that's what gives, that's like the change between actual doing something to just training for something. And I see it a lot correlation with business management and startup words. Um, but yeah, I think like once you actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk, that's like a major, uh, change in your life. And in the army, of course, it's the same. Um, whenever you're like operating more and whenever like you're actually like doing the things behind the scenes, like actually having the war, you're, you're well more prepared for the future. Um, yeah, I think like it's very— for me it's very obvious. Maybe it's not, but like—

no, it's not, it's not at all. I think that analogy that I used for myself after talking to you about it was like, if it's the playoffs for any sporting event, would you rather bet on the team that's been playing all season or the team that's been in the offseason just like hanging out at the beach, like working out for an hour a day? But you don't really think about it in the lens of like war because you also— it's hard to rationalize the fact that you make so much progress when in other ways you're going backwards.

Yeah.

Right? Because you're like under attack, for example.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like, it might not, might not be very obvious, but I don't know, like recently everything correlates to business for me right now. So like, even, even when you're like losing a client or I'm losing a client, right? You're like going backwards, basically. You're losing money, you're losing revenue, you're like feeling bad or whatever, but you're actually, it's like you're moving forward because you're learning how to like not lose the next client. You know, everything is like in life. I don't see failure as an option. It's like, or I won and I gained something, or I just learned something. So that's— you can take an army because you're under attack, right? You're under attack. You're at war. Things are not going maybe in the right way, but you're always learning. And for the next operation, for the next thing you're doing, you'll be smarter, you'll learn more, and you'll be more prepared. So I think it's very like correlated to business as well.

When you were 14 years old, you told your grandfather that you were going to have a yacht by the time you were 26.

Yeah, I'm 26 and I don't have a yacht. Yet, but yeah, there's something that was funny. I was like, I'm 26 now.

Is that still the goal?

No. On this post on LinkedIn, I also said about how to set up the right goals for yourself. But I just had a goal. One of my goals and one of my whys in life is just like, I come from a middle-class family. Everything is fine. Dad worked 24/7, mom worked as well, raised us. So I wanted, like, my why is to be able to be the provider and like change the, the, like, the, the, the way of my family. I want to say like, I want, I want to do something big. I want to be big. I want to be big in terms of like success, personal development, not only money but also money, but like personal development, the way I see life, the way I help and inspire the people around me. Um, so like, I— when I was 14, you know, it's very non-common thing to say that you want to have a yacht by 26, but I said it because I knew that I want to be like bigger than my environment. I want to have something bigger than my environment. And the yacht is like very, you know, it's, it's a, it's a variable, but like, just, I just want to have something that someone else doesn't have because he didn't work hard enough. Um, so that's how I see it when I was like 14.

But as time has evolved, like, fast forward to today, if you think about when you leave this earth, like, what do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to be remembered for?

Hmm. Interesting question. Like, I want to have a lot of money, if that's— if that's the question. But that's not all I want. Like, I want to have an amazing family. You know, in the next few years, I want to build a family. I want to have— it's very also Israeli thing, like, A lot of— we want to build families, want to have like very warm families and like loving ones.

You need a big table at Shabbat.

Yes, correct. Not like this one, but I want to have a good big family. I want to feel good with myself. Like this is something that I'm prioritizing for myself right now. Like there's a lot of important stuff in life, but there is not a lot of important stuff like you're— like there is not a lot of important things like yourself. Like this is the most important thing that you have. That's your best asset. And whenever you treat yourself this way and you also felt that during your 75 Hard, like you treat your body like a temple. And you did things that actually help you, like if it's reading, meditation, whatever, because you treat your body like a temple. And I'm not yet, like I'm working on it. But whenever you do it and whenever you're getting to a point, like this is the most important part, to make sure that you feel good and like everything is like your business and everything around it is like under the purpose of serving it, just makes, makes you feel better. And it's like one of my biggest goals in life. And my legacy, want to be like helping other people to get to this point. I want to help other people, help other men, help other people in my environment to understand that like business is important, money is important, having fun is important, but taking care of yourself is the most important part. And I'm not talking like physically and not mentally and not something like in specific. I'm talking, I'm saying in general. For me, it's meditating, journaling, understanding myself. Talking with people, uh, um, understanding like exactly where I want to be, like, like have clearer mind. That's for me taking care of myself. For you, it can be completely something like something completely different. But as long as we're both doing it for ourselves, we'll just have better, uh, future, in my opinion. That's how I see it. Um, yeah, so I'm not like— I want to have the money piece of it just for more, for like more of a secure and freedom piece. But it's not that I want to be like It's not that my goal will be like having like supercars or whatever. That's not the way I see it. It's nice and it's fun, but like, I'm getting bored of everything pretty quickly. So I need something that is like more in-depth in it.

Amazing. Benjamin, I appreciate you coming on the pod today.

I appreciate it.

Can you look at the camera, let everyone know where they could find you and what you're working on?

So I'm working right now on Windmill, of course, as I said, Windmill Growth. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, everything you want. Like, I can also, if someone want to talk more, like understand better about my story, I would love to chat and like help you guys go through it as much as I can. I'm also in the process of like building another app that is going to be live soon. And as I said, helping other people, helping other men work on themselves. It's something that's like really in the beginning, but something that I really care about because I know what big of a shift it made to my life. So I want to help others. So if it's something that's like relevant for you guys, so personal development, self-development, feel free to talk. I always love to talk about this stuff. It's my passion. Um, yeah, always available for everything.

This is the last episode of season 3. I have never said this before, and I think this is episode 75, but if you made it to the last minute of the last episode of season 3 and you haven't subscribed to this podcast, I would really appreciate it. I've never asked someone to subscribe before. It feels uncomfortable saying it, but I'm asking you to do so because if you made it to the end of this episode, you probably enjoy these conversations. That's all I got.

So I'm honored to be the last episode of Season 3. Thank you very much.

On to Season 4.