#085: How Sydney Karmes-Wainer Turned Instagram Recipes into a Cult Snack Brand

One more thing I wanted to say on this, 'cause it's been top of mind the last few days. Um, and I, I actually just was about to post about this. Very few people get into health and wellness out of a positive place. Like few people say like, I just wanna eat healthier. Like it comes from pain. Like I was asking someone how he, you know, got onto his health journey. It usually comes from a dark place. You wanna change something about your health and wellness. Like you, you got blood work done that scared you. You are unhappy with the way your body looks and/or feels. You have brain fog, you can't think clearly. Like Americans are struggling, you know? So like why is this like top of mind for people today? Like why is it such a big topic? It all comes from pain.

Welcome back to Season 4, Episode 8 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Sydney Karmas-Wainer, the founder of French Squirrel, joining us. Thanks for joining today.

Thank you, Ben. Thanks for having me.

So I think we're going to start by talking about your little celeb moment that you had on your way over here. I had like a plan on the direction of this conversation, and then you walked in and you're like, two people, two different people recognized me at Happier Grocer. Because I'm the founder of Friend Squirrel.

Yeah, no, I— and I usually like, that was just top of mind, so I came in here, uh, thinking about that because I was like, hmm, that's interesting. That means that my content is obviously reaching people because they didn't know who I was. They're like, oh, we see your— I see your Instagram Reels all the time and love following your story. I was like, oh wow, thanks.

Do you feel like you— do you ever like pat yourself on the back or take a second and you're like, holy shit, like a lot of people know who I am? Or you always feel like you're still this big.

And exactly, no, like, I— yeah, I don't, I don't ever think that because I, it's not my thing. I'm just kind of like, I, I feel like I'm, you know, in my own bubble in a way. And I don't ever think— actually, I know this sounds weird, but when I do post things on social media, sometimes I don't even think about the, the people, like everybody that's watching it, because I'm posting it for a specific, like, niche community. But when you put it publicly, anybody can watch it. Like even the people that work at Happier Grocery probably maybe have seen those videos. Like, you don't know who's watching your stuff.

Yeah. And I think the other piece, at least that I've talked about with content, is all it takes is one person to see it to potentially like change the trajectory of your life or something you're working on.

Yeah.

Like the surface area that you can cover with like a viral video, for example, I think is super underestimated. But I really wanted to have this conversation because for those listening, we sat on a panel together last week. And Sydney is the most, like, unapologetic, authentic person that I've sat on a panel with in, like, the most positive way. We're like, I think to your point about the content, you're like, I don't really think about it when I post it, but I feel like that's because you're just living in your true self and you, you just don't think about all the judgment or all the edits that I need to make or whatever. Like, this is just my raw, authentic perspective or whatever it is, and you just ship it.

Okay, thank you. You phrased that well because when you first asked that question, I was like I— it's gonna sound bad that I'm saying I don't think about other people when I'm posting it, like, because that, that sounds wrong because I do care about the audience. But, but I actually don't.

I don't think it sounds right.

Like, I just am so focused on what I'm doing that I don't really care.

I don't think it's wrong though because I actually think in, in a positive way, people are attracted to you and your content. Yeah, because you don't give a shit. Yeah, because that— because you not giving a shit means authenticity. If you're a creator and all you're doing is trying to just tell the exact narrative that you think people want to hear. I mean, there are definitely creators who do that and it works well for them.

Right.

But I don't feel like that's a sustainable lifestyle to live in a version that isn't your true self.

Right.

Just to appease your audience.

Yeah. No, no, no. Exactly. And I— and also controversial. People ask me, like on the panel, they were saying, what's the strategy? I don't have one. I wake up in the morning and I when I'm walking on the treadmill or I'm on my coffee walk in the morning, I just think like, what do I wanna post today? And I tried it where it was planned out, scheduled out, and there was so much resistance. And then I do get comments from like family, friends that will like swipe up on something and be like, your, your hair was blocking your face in this video. Or like, oh, uh, I mean, you know, you had something in your teeth, which I hope I don't, but like, I don't. I'm not paying attention to a lot of the things, you know.

Why do you think you've found success as an outlier? Because I feel like, I feel like most brands or creators tend to follow like the trends or the best practices, I get, you know. Yeah, I think if I remember correctly on the panel, someone asked you about your pricing strategy.

Yeah.

And I feel like I don't remember exactly verbatim what your answer was, but it was something along the lines of like, I needed to hit a certain margin profile, and despite the fact that the the retailer told me selling a product above $10 was going to be terrible for my brand. You're like, I didn't give a shit anyways, and it like works.

Is it—

wasn't that the answer? Something to that degree.

Um, and hold on, and by the way, I won't post something if there's something in my teeth. I don't know why that was my example.

That's your— that's your like— that's your one ache that you give yourself.

Yeah, I don't know why I even said that as an example. Like, I obviously wouldn't post something if there was something in my But I'm saying I just don't care to that like degree. Um, and I think, but I think to an extent all entrepreneurs have that thing and I don't know what the word is necessarily. It's like when everyone tells you no, you say yes. Right.

And it's this, it's that it factor.

You have to be crazy. You have to be a little off to be going against the grain and doing what most people aren't doing, which is starting your own thing. And trusting your gut, following your intuition. And so, yeah, I was talking about the psychology of pricing because so many founders don't start because they're sitting behind a computer thinking about, oh, well, you know, what price should I price it at? And, you know, statistically, people don't buy the product at XYZ price because of the way our brains work. And I remember that conversation about someone telling me, you do not put it over $10, over $9.99. Then people won't buy it. And I was like, no, but I have to. Yeah. And then it ended up working because of pattern disruption is what I was saying. Like if everything on the shelf, like if all the refrigerated chocolate desserts are $3.99, $4.99, $5.99, then you see $10.99, you're like, what's so special about French Squirrel stuffed dates that I have to buy that? Why is it $10.99?

I was excited to jump into the conversation. Maybe we should take a step back and you just tell everyone quickly what French Squirrel is.

Yes. So, um, we've been in business for almost 5 years. French Squirrels, all healthier sweet snacks. So everything from stuffed dates with peanut butter coated in dark chocolate. We do protein bites, clusters coated in chocolate and peanut butter and date sugar, and then a date peanut butter, which is just 4 ingredients and it's fantastic. And I would've brought it if we weren't sold out, but organic peanuts, organic Medjool dates, cinnamon and sea salt, and it's amazing.

Do you remember the day that you went from posting recipes to becoming a founder?

Mm. I remember that day. I remember it was scary when I like launched the business on my Instagram.

Just like that. But that moment for you when you realized that it was, it was something bigger than just like posting recipes online.

Yeah. I mean, I actually, I still don't believe it. It goes back to what you were saying in the beginning about the happier grocery. Interactions, like I don't, I don't think about that because I'm just so focused on my mission and my purpose. And I know it sounds cliché, but I know that my purpose on this earth, there are many purposes on this earth, but one of them is to help other women. And I spoke about this on the panel too. And so because of that, whether it's through this packaging physically or whether it's just me posting recipes, Hopefully I'm reaching the right audience, um, and helping people. But yeah, it's that moment. This allows me to get my mission to more people, you know? Like, this is just an extension of me, this thing.

What is your mission?

My mission is to help other women be more confident in their bodies, honestly. And with all the diet culture noise It's so important to have positive influence and positive figures in women's lives. Also, men deal with it too, let's be honest. But yeah, like to be happy and healthy, and the two are interchangeable. You can't be one without the other.

Was there a moment in your journey where like a light bulb went off where you realized this was like the mission that you wanted to put your life's purpose against? Like where did this come from?

Honestly, I think it was from other people messaging me. I've gotten so many, it's amazing. I should, I need to save them about how much me posting about my journey has impacted them. Or I was in LA a couple weeks ago and someone came up to me in person, like this girl saying that I have no idea how much my content has helped her with her relationship with food. And I was like, what? Like, that's— I'm so glad. That, that makes me want to do it more.

Yeah, you, you definitely need to save those moments.

Yeah, I do. I got to take—

and you need to— I think you need to post those as well. Like, you can anonymize them, but I think like— oh, you're right, there's nothing wrong with like reaffirming that what you're doing is actually working, because there's probably people out there also who see content who doubt it Like, who is this helping? What is the point of this?

Right.

But it's like, hey, look at this one human being who basically claims I changed their life or helped them for whatever reason because I was able to like provide them with the inspiration or content that they needed.

That was— that's great. I should do that. And it was in— this reminds me of a, of a story that I just posted on my Instagram, which to your point, I'm sure most people thought was stupid. Okay, like I only have one personal account, my Sydney underscore KW Instagram account is all of me. Like, guys follow it, girls, family, friends, whatever. It's everybody, okay? It's like, this is me, okay? And I posted something about how I posted my lunch or like something like that, and it wasn't enough. I was still hungry after my lunch. I— doesn't even matter. I went to the gym that day. I was extra hungry. Women's hormones fluctuate during the times of the month and they're hungry or whatever. And I went back to the kitchen, I made myself a second omelet, okay, because I was hungry. And I just posted that saying like, don't— like, to all the women who look at other women online and what they're eating with all these what I eat in a days and da da da, like, don't— this is just a highlight reel. I just said I literally had a second plate and you wouldn't have known if I didn't take a second plate. So don't judge your portions off of what you see online. Do you know how much engagement I got on that story?

I mean, I—

crazy.

Just hearing you say that, I've never, I've never seen someone post like that before. Yeah, like that concept is so novel. Yeah, like a female being like, wait, I ate more because I was still hungry.

Exactly. Like, God forbid a woman says that, you know?

That's actually shocking. Yeah, I'm not surprised you got crazy engagement. But I also know when you posted that, you weren't thinking like, oh, are people going to engage with this?

No, that's not what I was thinking about. I was thinking like I needed to hear that when I was in a negative headspace. Like, I'm totally out of that now. And I have to remind myself that also a lot of my community is in that space. So like, even I was talking to my friend Anna as well. She was just in the South. And sometimes I feel like when I post content and I think maybe you relate, I feel like I'm maybe saying the same thing. Do people even— Like, do people know that turmeric is anti-inflammatory already? Yeah, everybody knows that. Do people know that turmeric is activated by black pepper? Everybody knows that. It's not true. We're living in a bubble. And Anna was saying, my friend, she was in the South, it is not there. We need to keep pushing our message for health in this country because we are in a bubble. It's not prominent everywhere.

Not only that, but the other piece of it is that the amount of touch points that a consumer needs with some concept on social media is so many more than you think is the person posting it.

Yeah, right.

So like, to your point, getting self-conscious that you're posting the same thing over and over.

Yes.

Like, I have a friend who texted me, he was giving me shit. He's like, dude, no one even knows you have a podcast. Like, why do I see you just like— you post one new episode a week and like you maybe post one reel and that's it. He's like, don't feel like you're spamming people. If they don't like your content, they'll unfollow you. Yeah, like the turmeric thing. Yes, I actually do. I, I actually knew that, but the only reason I knew that is I had a friend who played hockey, who had really, really bad inflammation issues, missed the whole season, and that was the ingredient that actually helped him.

It's amazing. People think it's capsules.

So random. I actually— I happen to know that.

Okay.

But people don't know. People don't know.

And sometimes I'm like, do I say this? I feel like this is common knowledge. It's not common knowledge.

I talked about this on a previous podcast episode. One of the best pieces of advice that I got from another founder friend of mine: people are 10 times less logical than you think they are. When you are stuck, when you are stuck inside of your own little bubble with your knowledge base, you assume that the things you know are so trivial and obvious to everyone else around you that you almost feel insecure or weird about saying it because it's almost like you're going to offend someone because you think they're going to be like, no shit, turmeric's good for anti-inflammatory. Like, that's what you—

that sentence alone is crazy.

Yeah, but that's what you're thinking in your head.

That's what I'm thinking.

But it's so not true. And like, the moment I was able to— I, I shouldn't even say the moment I broke out of this because I still like think about it, but yeah, the The biggest challenge I faced as a founder was assuming that all because someone had a big title, it was working at a big company, that they had everything figured out.

Yeah.

So like for my— look, my company Platter, fundamentally, if you simplify it, what do we do? We build websites. Yeah, right. Like there's a lot more nuance in like what we do and how we do, but that's not a— the concept of building a website is not a novel concept, right? So in my head I'm like, okay, well, if I'm talking to like a VP at a Fortune 500 who's been in this industry for 20 years, I pitch him that we're building websites. And here's why you should do X, Y, and Z, he's gonna be like, no shit, like, I've been doing this my whole career.

Yeah.

And then when you realize that's not true, and like, I can get on the phone with a Fortune 500 company that has like a 9-figure brand and point out like what are very obvious like mistakes to me in terms of like how they structure their website. Old Ben would have been insecure to point that out because you feel like you're offending someone, right? New Ben was like, no, this is wrong, I'm the subject matter expert. Like, I've been in my bubble for the last couple years.

Yeah.

And then you start to realize that people are way less logical than you think they are and you give them credit for. When you start to tell yourself that, everything will change and you'll go online and post about turmeric 10 times a day.

Okay, well, thank you for that. That's really, that's really inspiring. I love that people are 10 times less logical than you think they are. Um, also, I love the name of your business. It's awesome. And I love what you said on the panel, and it really resonated with me actually. Um, which you probably have said a million times and you didn't even think that maybe it would resonate, but, uh, making it as simple as possible, like as few clicks possible. And I went home that night and I was like, how many clicks does it take to get to purchase my product? Like, that was amazing. And I, and I went through it as you said, and it was too many. Like, why do I, why do I have to, I, and then the popups and the thing, I'm like, do I need this? It's annoying.

So did you make changes?

I, no. Yeah. I, I, I didn't implement them yet. I need to go back. But I did the exercise of like trying to count how many clicks, which I'm sure you've said a million times to people. And your, your advice also validated for me that like, it's okay that I have a simple website. I think before I would, you know, graphic designers are always emailing me and telling me, oh, I can fix your website and maybe we should add, make it more this and more that. There is a time where I'll do it. It's not the focus for me exactly right now, but it's okay that it's simple. Maybe it's better that it's simple.

Simplicity also can be used in multiple different, like, contexts, right? So there's an element of simplicity in terms of the actual aesthetic, right? There's an element of simplicity in terms of the actual functionality. And then there's an element of simplicity in terms of, like, your product suite and what you are trying to get people to buy. Right. For example, if you're a brand that is a 90% subscription business, everything, even if you have like— so actually a great example is, um, do you have the brand Veracity? It's a, it's a women's like metabolic, like hormonal supplement brand, but they're a very large subscription brand. They have a lot of SKUs, but like the bulk of their business is from like their hero products. In the form of subscription.

Okay.

So because of that, like, despite the fact that they have a large catalog, like the decisions they need to make in terms of like how they're architecting their website needs to be around like, how do we guide people towards getting to buy as a subscriber?

Right, right.

So it's to go back to that, like the first one is simplicity in the aesthetic. I always joke you can tell the difference between a website that was built by a branding agency and a conversion-focused shop, right? Is it just like, oh, look at like this— imagine like a flying squirrel, literally a flying squirrel on the top of a piece of chocolate across the page. Someone might be like, oh, that's so cool, but it probably won't convert because it's like people are like, what's going on? I'm trying to just buy a product.

Agency that would have done a branding.

Someone who cares about beautiful. Got it. They just want someone to look at the website and be like, wow, that's gorgeous. It's like, well, do you know what my conversion rate is? And then you tell them and you're like, holy shit, right? So yeah, simplicity in the aesthetic is like, don't add so many bells and whistles that it's hard to understand, like, what are you actually selling? And like, right, what do you want me to do when I come? The second one is the actual functionality on the website, which goes back to the concept around clicks.

Yes.

Right. Like other anecdotal examples, if like you have a low price point and you need like a minimum threshold in terms of how much they spend, you need to add certain levers of like building a bundle or like, right, you know, buy 2 for the price of 1, whatever it might be.

Yeah.

So you can get so nuanced and go down a rabbit hole about that. But I say that because I've, you know, looked at thousands and thousands of sites. It's like all I do every day is that.

Yeah.

So when I saw yours, I'm like, if step one is just simplicity, making sure that people can go on and buy like you're doing, you're doing a good thing. When you hit a new threshold of like growth and product catalog and requirements, inevitably it's going to evolve.

And that's where I am right now. Like, I need to change it eventually, and then like the next couple of months, like, that's where I am. Like, and specifically push certain products, you know? Like, I'm not— now I'm focused on that because we were having inventory issues and, uh, like production because I, I just was under, under-projecting, which is—

hell yeah.

No, like, it's my own limiting— thank you— but it's like my own limiting belief, and it goes back to the— your, your comment, like Do I— like, I am hard on myself, you know. Uh, I don't ever take a step back and be like, look at, look at what I've done, you know. Like, it's hard for me to do that, which I need to do it more. Um, but yeah, that was living in like, you know, uh, fire— what is it— like putting out fires mode. And now I'm like, okay, once I have the inventory and everything's smooth, how am I going to scale this and change the website to benefit sales.

I know a guy. So, okay, well, yeah, um, you're talking about your limiting beliefs, but over the weekend you had an opportunity that I would argue is something that is like objectively amazing.

Thank you.

So it's like you could sit here and be like, oh, I don't know if this business is working, I don't know if people like my product, and then you find yourself standing talking to Andrew David Haberman. For those of you who don't know who that is, it's like one of the— he's one of the north stars of health and wellness in terms of individuals and knowledge.

Yeah.

Talk to me about that experience.

Thank you. And in moments like that, as cliché as it sounds, really do remind me that I'm on the right path. Like that, you know. So I was at SunLife's grand opening, SunLife Organics. I'm an LA native, so they started out there. and they just opened in SoHo, just right near here, um, and they said, hey Sydney, uh, could you provide us with some French Squirrel Bisous, our cereal clusters, for their goodie bags for the New York opening? And I was like, yeah, sure, but I'm actually in New York. Why don't I come? You know, like, I don't usually do that, but I offered myself to go.

That's the best way to do it, to be there in person.

Uh, I brought over 100-something samples. It was all gone in 47 minutes. I was supposed to be there for like 3 hours, okay? There were so many people. There were— it was a line out the door with like velvet ropes. Like, there were just so many people. I, I didn't know if they had this cult following like this. Crazy. Um, and I also think it's because, in my opinion, they're bringing newness. Like, there's Juice Press, Juice Generation, you know. This is something fresh and new and It's exciting. Um, and I see Andrew Huberman walk right through the door and I was like, I was speechless. Okay. And one of my good friends, Sean, lives here in New York and he was there and I wasn't gonna do it cuz I was scared. Not scared. I was nervous. Like I didn't know and I didn't wanna be, I didn't wanna be that person. Like, you know, there's a, there's a fine line between like cringe. And shooting your shot. So I was just treading lightly and he's like, just, just do it, just go. And he pushed me and he's like, I'll record the whole thing. You got it. Just like make your way in. And I had to make my way in. There were so many people and I just went up there and I shook his hand and I was like, I'm a huge fan. Here's my product. And he was so nice, stoic, grounded, level-headed. And it was very inspiring because there was so much chaos going around, going on around him, yet he was like fully like eye contact calm. And he asked me about the story of French Squirrel, like where the name came from. He didn't ask me about the ingredients, about if it's gluten-free or refined sugar-free or vegan or whatever. He didn't, he didn't ask me anything. He's just like, I love the name. Where'd the name come from? I was like, oh, that's so nice.

Where did the name come from?

My late French grandmother, who pronounced the word squirrel weird, and she was a hidden child during the Holocaust, actually. So, yeah, and it was just her birthday a couple days ago. And so she means a lot to me. And it was so nice that he asked that. Not that he would have known, but—

So I have two— there's a lot to unpack there.

Yes.

I have 3 comments to make. The first one, like, I didn't know they had such a cult following. I have a friend who lives in Austin who texts me, he's like, I'm in town for the SunLife opening. Granted, he's also very deep in the health and wellness. Uh, have you heard of Meat Mafia?

Yes, I have.

So my friend Harry— okay, he's one of the like hosts of Meat Mafia, like founder, co-host, whatever. Uh, and he's like— I was like, wait, you're in town for an opening of a grocery store? But I was like, okay, fine, I'm sure there's more to it. But apparently people love that place.

Yes, people flew in, which is what you just said. I talked to people, they're like, yeah, we're originally from Austin. I don't know if that— I was— who I was talking to, but it was, it was a mom and daughter and they flew in. And I was like, what?

That's crazy. The second point I was gonna make is, and you know this, but closed mouths don't get fed, right? It's like, how often are you standing in front of someone like that? It's like, what's the worst that happens? You try to say something and it doesn't go well? It's like, okay, well, regret hurts a lot more than failure. You might as well just like try it.

100%.

And then the third piece I'll say is that You can't— you have to understand that someone like that, this is the millionth time that he's been in this exact situation where it's like you're surrounded by a bunch of people in health and wellness and everyone's like, oh my God, there's Andrew Huberman. Yeah. If he got freaked out and chaotic in those moments, I don't think he would continue to do what he's doing.

Right.

He's probably so unfazed by it that he just—

that's the word.

Yeah.

He's unfazed.

Yeah. Because he's just like, okay, well, you're a human. You also have a business. Like, let's just talk. I want to learn about what you're doing or who you are. Um, so I think that's super fascinating. And the other thing I was thinking about, because you mentioned like of all things he could have asked you, his first question was, uh, the— where the name came from. There's a book that I'm only like 40 pages into right now, but reading, called Super Communicators.

Oh, love.

And it talks about how there's like 3 different types of conversations, okay, when you're communicating with other people. And super communicators are those who can read like what wavelength, if you will, the person you're talking to is on to be able to like— it's really about building a connection.

Yes.

Right. So in that instance, he probably recognizes it's a stressful environment. It's chaotic.

Yeah.

So I guess the first thing I'm going to do, like quiz her on like every single ingredient in her product. Probably not.

Yeah. Yeah. And you can probably tell I'm like Little Miss Bubbly. I'm like, oh my God, you know? Yeah. He's like, there probably has to be a story behind that. Craziness. Yeah.

Did he try the product or were you out of samples?

He gave it to his, uh, his assistant or whoever was there, the production guy who's recording. Who knows whether he posted or not. Uh, he, he engaged with my stories and, you know, I even— my, my best friend that was with me, Sean, went to Stanford and so did he. He's a Stanford professor.

Yeah.

Um, and so they were talking Again, another limiting belief, another thing was like I was trying to end this conversation earlier with him because I felt bad. I felt like I was bothering him because I'm sure he's been in this scenario with fans coming up to him. I kept trying to end the conversation and he kept continuing.

Think about yourself and Happier Grocer.

Yeah, I know.

It's a limiting belief. You're on the other side of the coin. There's probably people who came up to you who are like, oh, I'm going to stop the conversation. She's the founder of French Squirrel. I don't want to bother her.

I know, but I love it. I don't care. And it's the same way. I'm sure he loves— I know.

Well, now you're getting somewhere, right? I'm sure he loves it and he doesn't care either.

Yeah, like, what is that? It's my own shit. I got to deal with that. Like, I feel like I'm a bother sometimes.

There's your next piece of content that you can talk about.

Or my next therapy session.

Or your next therapy session. Yeah, I feel like they become interchangeable to some degree if you're authentic on social media.

Yes.

For better or for worse.

This?

Uh, I mean, it's not on the camera, so you can leave it there.

Great.

Um, I want to shift gears here and talk a little bit, get more into the nerdy science around the hormonal health aspect of things because I'm very curious.

Okay.

Um, so I have a couple questions for you. First one being, top 3 food habits for women managing hormone health.

Oh, love, I just did this yesterday. Wow, with my mini mic that I bought, and it's the second time I bought a mini mic. I'm not sure if it's me. I'm toying with the idea of it. I've recorded some content with them in EMI, like 3.

You don't know if it's your vibe?

Yeah. And then my whole vibe is that I'm authentic to myself, like too authentic. But I was like, I don't know if this feels right.

You know what I think is you? Are you ready for this?

I'm ready.

I think you need to get a headset that has like a yoga or like a SoulCycle instructor. I think you would crush that.

That would be—

that feels more like you, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does. Maybe— it's so funny because someone was wearing that the other day and I commented on it that I liked it. Makes you look like a, like, professional.

I think that's more you than like holding a mic in your hand.

Okay.

I mean, what do I know? That's just—

no, no, no, it's okay. I mean, you're reading energy. Um, I would say, okay, so when I was dealing with my own hormonal, hormonal issues, and obviously I'm not a doctor, so So take this with a grain of salt for anyone listening, but I used to be vegan. And while that works for many people, for women specifically, women need red meat. At least I did. And especially during certain times of the month with iron, I thrive off of animal protein. That's just how I am. My whole life changed when I started to prioritize more protein. I know, again, people hear it all the time, but it's true. Um, I love salmon, steak, ground beef. Like, I like totally on the animal-based wave now. I eat everything in moderation. But when I was at my lowest energy, lowest weight, lowest health, whatever that is, uh, with all these hormone imbalances, I was vegan. And once I switched my diet and also went to more low-impact exercise instead of killing myself on the treadmill every day, like running, a lot changed. Yeah. Um, and then I would say when it comes to refined sugar, again, this is what I'm saying, people, you, you hear this, but not everyone hears this. Um, lowering the refined sugar, huge game changer. Um, sugar is addicting, we all know that. Uh, I also am really into gut health and the impact of like sugar and gut health and brain health and hormones. And it's amazing, um, which I also spoke about on our panel, how I have that separate gut health TikTok. And dates, fun fact, are really amazing for women who are going into labor. It's known that when you're pregnant, about 3 weeks before you go into labor, you should be eating 6 dates a day. Okay. And it's ease, it eases labor. To make you— yeah, what? Give birth?

Really?

Yeah, it's amazing.

What?

I know that you—

I need more.

I know it's— well, it's gonna— I don't want to get graphic.

No, go.

Okay, well, it doesn't mean that—

like, this is a very unfiltered conversation.

And it doesn't mean that, like, you know, when people say—

what's the science about that?

It loosens up, like, the cervix to allow you to give birth easier.

But why dates?

I think the fiber and also the whatever it is in terms of like the glucose and the nutrient and the, and also magnesium. They're super high in magnesium, which helps with pain management. So when you're giving birth, which I don't have experience with, it's supposed to ease labor and ease pain and all these things. So I, yeah, dates are super high in magnesium too. Potassium.

That's really interesting.

But again, it's the same thing. It's like if guys eat tofu doesn't mean like you're gonna like grow boobs, you know what I mean? Like, it's not— that's— I mean, I don't know.

What would you say is a healthy myth that you feel like you had to unlearn to build French Squirrel?

Like, food-wise?

Yeah.

Oh, I got it easy. Um, when it comes to sugar, I was deep in this, like, orthorexic, like, health mindset when I first started French Squirrel. Where I thought that like, okay, yes, 100% dates are better than certain sugars, maple sugar, maple syrup, coconut sugar. Obviously the, the fewer refined sugar ingredients you have in your diet, the better. But we all process sugar the same. So whether it's organic, I mean, it's the same thing with whether you eat organic cane sugar or organic coconut sugar. The glycemic index is a little bit lower on coconut sugar and on maple syrup and on honey and on dates, but it's still sugar, okay? And I made some changes to our ingredients at French Squirrel over the years. The chocolate market I spoke about, horrible. I had to change our chocolate to a 60 to 70% dark chocolate on our dates, and before we had 100% cacao. And I was toying around with, do I do organic coconut sugar or organic cane sugar? For the business to survive, I had to change it to organic cane sugar. And not— I was toying around with organic coconut sugar. I didn't know. And I was like, you know what, what is more sustainable? Organic cane sugar. It's more accessible, it's a better price point, and, uh, it's absorbed by the body in this— in the same way. It's still sugar. Hot take.

Is that—

yeah, okay.

Well, I feel like, I feel like you're— most founders have to be misunderstood in some way. Like, you need to be able to, to live and die in a hell.

And sugar is sugar.

Would you say that's like the most misunderstood concept about hormones?

Oh no, like in terms of ingredients? And of course, no, not the sugar.

Sorry, the sugar intake I'm referring to.

Possibly, possibly. I think people Also, when it comes to sugar alcohols, I think that like, I'm not really for stevia and monk fruit and erythritol and xylitol. I don't want to, you know, I don't judge anyone with their food choices. They're just incredibly gut disrupting. Like, it actually is a 42-step process to go from the stevia plant to stevia that's in your food products. I don't know if you knew that. 42 steps. So it's natural, it's from a plant, but why do you want that in your body? You're better off having less refined sugar. So that's what I'm saying. It's like sugar is sugar, but it's not. Like when it comes to organic cane sugar versus coconut sugar, your body interprets it the same way. But sugar alcohols, I'm very passionate about this as you can tell, 'cause I'm rambling.

No, I'm here, I'm here.

It tricks your mind, it tricks your brain. Like we all have a problem in this country thinking that like, these, these sugar alternatives are better for you. If you taste something sweet, because I've read this a lot, I read into this, when you taste something sweet, your sugar receptors go on, light on, on your brain, in your brain. When you don't actually absorb sugar, because these zero-calorie sweeteners are zero calories, you know, it confuses and messes up your metabolism. No wonder why people have trouble losing weight when they're on all these diets and the Splenda and the sodas with all these BS sugar alcohols?

I, I think it's actually another topic that goes back to the same point we made before, which is like the assumption around how logical these things sound or feel. I think I was an athlete in my past life, so like health and wellness is a huge part of my life, always has been. Yeah, I think if I were to give advice to someone who's struggling with everything and they're trying all these like weird obscure habits and diets, whatever. Eat whole foods. Yeah, that is like— that to me is like step one.

Step one.

Like, if it's a whole food, it's probably a fair place to start. And then of course everyone has their own sensitivities and you can go a little bit deeper. But I think there's people who are like, I don't understand, like, why am I feeling this way? Or why aren't I getting better? And it's like, well, you're eating like a better-for-you bag of Doritos every hour. Like, you just like eat— just eat like a vegetable.

Yeah, you're better off making your own fries at home also. Like, You wanna eat potatoes or chips. And then my third thing, healthy fats. When it comes to food, you asked me, with diet culture and over the last few years, like in the '90s and all that stuff, like everyone was pushing fat-free. And again, back to your whole food comment, like I always wanna eat food now in like the most purest form possible. Like even when it comes to dairy, like, whole milk? Like, what did the— what did the yogurt have to go through to go from whole milk to fat-free? Like, I always think about that.

Like, oh, that's an interesting question.

Yes. Like, what did the—

because there was fat and then there wasn't?

Yes. Like, what did the lentil— the lentil chips are technically lentils. I know, like, these, these chips, like, processed, but what did the lentil have to endure to get to be a chip? A lot of processing on a machine. So anyways, sorry, that's that. But healthy fats, so like specifically for women— men need them too, obviously, cognitive function, brain function, energy. Women specifically need it for energy, fertility. Like, women are supposed to have fat on their bodies to produce a period, and if they don't have enough fat on their bodies, then they're not fertile.

What do you— what are your go-tos?

Obviously peanut butter, obviously, but avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, coconut in general. Um, and I put peanut butter on everything, honestly. I eat it every single day, my peanut butter.

Well, so that was going to be my next question. Yeah, it's like, what is your— what's your perspective on just the peanut butter, like, options? Because I feel like there's so many.

Okay, I'm gonna nerd out now.

I, I'm ready.

Okay, I—

this is like a selfish personal question.

Okay, no, I'm gonna nerd out because we need more education on peanut butter. Actually, a lot of holistic practitioners will tell you to avoid peanuts because it's known to be high in mold. Okay. And on my whole gut health journey that I went on, it's like they tell you not to eat peanuts because it's high in mold. I— we test every single batch of French Coral date peanut butter for mold. We use organic blanched peanuts, so it means the skins are removed, so easier to digest. And, um, because of the types of peanuts we use, and also we don't have seed oils in the peanut butter. And another weird thought that you may not have thought about— these big brands that I'm not going to call out, like Jif. Yeah, Skippy. So maybe I'll call them out. Yeah, I grew up on that, by the way.

Yeah, but so did everyone.

Do you know how long ago those peanut butters were produced?

Probably 5 years.

Yeah, it's crazy.

How long?

No, years.

Yeah. Okay. I, I—

1 to 2 years, I would say.

Okay.

Yeah. I don't know about 5.

No, I just threw out a number.

Definitely years plural because peanuts have a shelf life of around of a year to year and a half. And by the time you're probably, when you're picking up one of those peanut butters, you're picking up something that was produced a long time ago. We still produce our peanut butter in small batches. And I have friends who have texted me, which again, I should post this also now that I'm saying it out loud, that they used to not eat peanut butter because of acne and they can eat my peanut butter and they have no problem and their skin is fine. Why? It's fresh. There's no seed oils in it. We're using blanched peanuts. It's easier to digest, which means you can absorb it better. I don't know. I think my skin is fine and I eat it every day.

Wow. So I'm loving this. Yeah, this is like an edu— it's like an education class for me.

Yeah, because you go, you go to the store and you think to yourself, like, when, when do you think that was made? A really long time ago.

I've never asked myself that question. I've also never asked how does whole milk go to fat-free, right?

And I still don't know the answer. I mean, I'm sure it's like the skin.

Yeah, but it's like, but, but the point being is if there's pro— if there's multiple steps in it, yes. Yeah, I can't imagine adding these steps makes it healthier. No, that's like what the logical brain would assume.

And that's why with stevia, everyone's like, oh, the stevia plant. I'm like, do you know that the stevia that you're putting in your coffee took 40, 42 steps to get to that? How is that? That's not even stevia at that point.

So my frustration, my frustration with this is I feel like in the last couple of years, the education around health and wellness has definitely like skyrocketed.

Right.

But the problem is the disparity between like cost and marketing leverage and reality, right? So for example, let's talk about peanut butter. We can sit here and bitch all we want that like the mass market peanut butters aren't healthy. Yeah, but we live in a capitalistic society where like big tech or big companies, their profit margins are really the priority. Like there's no world that they can make the best product, the better for you version that they can sell at this scale at the price point that they do it at. And the challenge is that you also have like a big percentage of society who can't afford to buy like the premium end products across all these categories. So it's like, do you ever think there's actually going to be this like combustion, I guess is the best word I can think of, where like the mainstream norm actually becomes a healthy product?

I love this question and I still— it's hard for me to grapple with because I know that like when I'm pushing this messaging, I know that the average American consumer can't afford it most likely. I think though, by, there is light at the end of the tunnel. Like if you support small businesses, which you just, you phrased that so beautifully. If you support small businesses, they'll get to the point where they can drop their price to be able to compete with those brands. Maybe not like exactly, maybe by being a dollar off or $2 off, but I think the gap will get smaller, once you support smaller businesses, to be able to compete with Jif and Skip.

But I, but I think like the price, the price war is only step one. Step two is like the unspoken monopoly they have on retail, right?

Right.

Like, and you know, you, you walk into whatever retailer it is.

Yeah.

And they might make a little bit of space for you because you have a unique product and there's like certain, like, you know, the Happier Groceries of the world.

Yeah.

But it's like, how does your product become the mainstream product in the Walmarts of the world where like the masses are shopping? And like I think the truth is that it's not gonna happen. Wasn't there a thing— I forgot what, um, what was the cereal? Wasn't there a couple cereals where there's this huge petition? Or yeah, I think Gushers was in it, and it was like Lucky Charms, and right, they were talking about like it getting taken off shelves because of some ingredient that was in them. Um, I'm Red 40.

I don't know.

Do you know what it is? I don't know.

Yeah, no, look it up. But, but, uh, there's something there. It's a very scientific word, I'm not remembering it, but I think it's this certain chemical that's found in those cereals that are known to actually disrupt fertility. Isn't that crazy? And, and the government is— the FDA is allowing that ingredient in the cereal.

So that's what I'm saying though, is like, you have— I'm looking right now, let's see, something like HBA, something like that.

I can't remember.

Red 40, yellow 5 and 6, and blue 1. Artificial food dyes.

Yeah, well, now that's what RFK is doing. Yeah, yeah, it's—

and there's So I guess my question is, do you actually think there's a reality a decade, two decades from now where there's actually a precedent set to like eliminate these products? And like, I just don't think it's going to happen. But it's just, I guess the irony in it for me is you have all these companies popping up that are all around like wellness and longevity and biohacking.

Yeah.

Yet to me, the real problem is just like the actual basics that people are exposed to.

Right.

But again, it's, it's like a, it's a the rich get richer thing. Like all these biohacking things. Yeah, only wealthy people really have like the disposable income to like invest in every supplement that most people never knew existed and all the other things to like increase their own lifespan.

Yeah, no, no, and I hear like even when I'm listening to podcasts, I think about that too. It's like people are making health and wellness so complicated now and so expensive.

And that is a very good way to say it though.

Just real food, just eat Real food. But you know what, in my opinion, it's like if you can't afford organic peanut butter, then try to go one level below, which is like any, do anything, any small step, even if that means transitioning to a peanut butter that's just peanuts and sea salt. Maybe it is conventional peanuts, maybe it is sprayed with pesticides, but, but you know, but at least it's just peanuts and salt and not hydrogenated vegetable oil and stuff like that. So. That's— I think the gap will get smaller, but there— I, I agree with you, there might— there inevitably will still be a gap.

But you just— you made a comment there that stuck with me, which is that health and wellness has gotten so complicated.

Way too complicated.

Why, why do you think that is?

Is social media part of it? People coming up and saying that with no, uh, no certification, no license, just saying like, this is how blah blah, this is how I did So much messaging, so much content. Um, maybe that's why. Why do you think it's gotten so complicated?

I think it's a topic that people are very curious about. So because of that, everyone forms their own opinions. And then when your job as a consumer is to filter opinions, to figure out what's real, what's not, what do I subscribe to, what do I not subscribe to? All of a sudden you feel like you're solving a calculus equation.

Right, right.

Because you can listen to 10 different people who— there's probably 10 people out there who would tell you why you should never eat peanut butter. It's the worst. I mean, thousands of people, not 10. And then you listen to someone who's like, you should eat it. And then you listen to someone who's promoting an ad for Jif and like, right? So all of a sudden you have so many different thought trees. Yeah, decision trees, I should say, of like, what is right, what is wrong, who do I listen to? And all of a sudden The thing that everyone knows to be true, which is like eat whole foods, like less processed, probably better for you. That gets lost immediately. Yeah. Now it's just about like the nuance, like every little inch you can gain, which then just creates complication to me.

And it makes it almost difficult to achieve. Like people feel like they're not doing enough. It's like it makes it too— what's the word? It's like hard to— they feel like it's too hard to attain. So they don't do anything.

It's just that, that is social media, what you just said. It's the unattainable, right? It's like you look at an Instagram model who filtered her hips and all of a sudden you're like, I want to be like that, but you actually can't because it doesn't exist. Yeah, I think that holds true in a lot of different categories.

One more thing I wanted to say on this because it's been top of mind the last few days, um, and I, I actually just was about to post about this. Very few people get into health and wellness out of a positive place. Like few people say like, I just wanna eat healthier. Like it comes from pain. Like I was asking someone how he, you know, got onto his health journey. It usually comes from a dark place. You wanna change something about your health and wellness. Like you, you got blood work done that scared you. You are unhappy with the way your body looks and or feels. You have brain fog. You can't think clearly. Like, Americans are struggling, you know, it's like, why is this like top of mind for people today? Like, why is such a big topic? It all comes from pain. Like, I don't meet people who just say, yeah, I just wanted to start eating healthier because it's like, why?

Health is real. Health— that I think that actually you bring this to a big insight in my opinion is that the big shift I'm seeing in health and wellness right now is it's for the first time becoming a proactive thing versus a reactive thing.

Yes, like that.

Like, you— I don't know if you've seen, like, the company Superpower. They're building, like, an AI doctor, essentially. Okay, the whole concept of it. Yes, yes, I'm a huge, huge fan.

Um, wasn't that what they did the event with Shanti House?

Was that, uh, no, they might have. I mean, they're, they're all over the place. Uh, they just announced, like, a $30 million Series A. They're backed by, like, some of the biggest names in the industry.

Wow.

But one of the founders, like, the healthcare system failed him. He was like on his deathbed, walked away from the hospital with like a $2 million bill, and they didn't even solve whatever the problem was.

Oh my God.

So their whole thing was like, okay, well, clearly the system's broken, but now it's about being proactive. Like, you know, get your biomarkers done, like draw your blood, like understand where you have issues, not because you're feeling pain, but so you never have to get to the point where you are feeling pain.

100%.

And I think that is a huge cultural shift that I'm seeing. So all of a sudden, because the proactivity is is top of mind. People are now starting to obsess over health and wellness, which then bleeds into the complication piece, I think, to like tie it full circle.

Love that. You make a video on that? That's really good.

What's that?

You should make a video on that.

At which part?

That whole thing.

That whole thing.

That was great.

Done. I'll do that. Um, another question I have for you, which is a little bit of a left turn, but I'm curious, what are— what is like a behind-the-scenes struggle that you have in building your business that people maybe wouldn't expect?

Mm. Uh, that no matter how much support I have, even when it comes to like everyone that makes it possible, which I'm so grateful for, cuz I could not do this obviously alone. Like my, my partners in manufacturing and my partners in packaging and ingredients like that, they make— it's a whole ecosystem. What people don't see is that I still feel alone. Like, it just still feels like me. And it's even in like the small, like the micro moments of like schlepping a box up the stairs, okay? And I'm like going to an event, and even though I have employees and I have all these amazing people supporting me, whatever, I'm like, and I'm like, and I don't— it's like even in that small moment of I, I am having trouble bringing the box up. I'm like, I'm, I feel alone. I mean, it's vulnerable to admit, but like, you know, as a founder entrepreneur, like you have to self-motivate and no one is yelling at me to get up at a certain time. No one's telling me to be at work at a certain time. I could technically take the whole day off if I wanted to. And because of that, it all comes like, it's all internal. So I guess like nobody sees that. Um, and I talk about that on social media too. Like at the end of the day, it feels lonely. I don't know if you relate, but I, I 100% relate.

And it's ironic because I have two partners and, you know, we have investors and we have employees and my family and my girlfriend and my friends, like everyone's supportive. But I think in some ways, like entrepreneurship is a thing of being misunderstood. Yes. So when there's certain— you're, you're feeling a certain way where someone like feels like you're crazy for feeling that way.

Yes, right?

Like, I'll give you a great example. It's like, look, from the outside looking in, it's like, I live in this beautiful apartment, I have this great business, I have like people around me. But when I'm like stressing myself out to the nth degree because something doesn't feel right in the business, where like there needs to be a change made or something, people are like, you're being dramatic, there's no way you're stressed about that, there's no way you feel alone. But it's like when you feel like you're on an island because you that no one else can understand. It's, it's a real feeling.

Yes. And yeah, nobody else can understand it, like, but people close to you can. Like, if people— I do have close friends that like get, or like, you know, my, my parents, if they get what I'm doing. But yeah, it's a lonely feeling.

I naturally gravitate towards spending my time with other founders, not because I'm like— it's not because I discriminate against people who aren't. Like, my childhood best friends, not most of them aren't entrepreneurs, and like, that's great and that's fine.

Yeah.

And it's amazing when I'm with them because it's like a break for me.

Yes.

But it's also great to have those friends because we can like vent to each other about the same shit because they actually understand like the things that you're going through.

Right, right.

Um, but what's funny about it is you made the comment in the middle of saying that is like, I know it's vulnerable to admit, but yeah, I don't even see it as vulnerable to admit because like if someone can relate to it, like other founders, like it's actually— I feel like in a lot of ways it'd be weird if you didn't say that.

Yeah. No, no, it's a struggle. Maybe I'll— no, maybe I'll start to incorporate that more too.

But again, it's the— it goes back to the underlying, I think, message of this entire conversation around the topic of logic, right? Like, it feels obvious to me, but there are plenty of people who probably follow your journey who do not assume that that is obvious.

No, no, you're right. Yeah, you're right. And then even like other founders, they all say the same thing, how it's lonely. So, and that's why, yeah, there are all these group chats and founder meetups because like you, you, it's, it's important to have someone to relate to you, you know. Um, what is it I read something the other day? So me, a pop, a popular loner.

A popular loner.

Yeah, like somebody who has a lot of friends, which I do, but I also spend a lot of time with myself. And I also like think, again, like I, like I think that I'm bothering people with like the loner thing. Yeah, that So that, that's me in a nutshell.

Me too. That resonates so deeply.

Popular.

I tell people I'm an extroverted introvert and that my social life is an illusion. Yeah, because like online I look like the person that's everywhere all the time, but like I actually very much spend a lot of time like alone and I'm a homebody. And yes, part of it is just like comes with the territory of having to, right?

No, same.

Um, wow, that's really interesting.

Yeah.

I want to know, so the concept of this podcast, Turning Pro, obviously it's talking about your growth journey through building this business, but looking back on your journey, what would you say is the biggest turning pro moment that you've had so far?

Um, definitely getting off the seesaw of like, is this working or is it not? Is it working? Is it not? There were so many times in the beginning of building this business where I wasn't sure if it was working. And I still am not positive that it's working, but I decided that it's working. So the second that I switched my whole mindset to saying like, this is working, everything changed. Sales increased. I started to hire people, uh, introduce new products. That's like, again, a limiting belief. Like, I was like, why am I on this seesaw of like— it's like it was a hot— the highs and the lows, and that was what was like bad for my own like mental sanity. But turning pro means like deciding that you're gonna win. So I didn't even give myself any other choice. I was like, this is gonna be the company that I sell to like Mondelēz, Nestlé, or whatever that is. I don't need to keep going back and forth. Is it or is it not? It just, it is.

I actually just got chills listening to you say that.

Thank you.

I don't know if I've ever gotten chills from listening to someone tell me their turning pro moment. And this is like episode 80.

Oh, wow. Okay, good one.

That was powerful.

Thank you. I don't know if I, it was the first time I articulated that out loud.

Great. There's another clip for you to post online. Okay. If French Squirrel disappeared tomorrow, what would you want people to remember it for?

Um, the message that I said in the beginning about like fueling our body with good food that makes you happy and healthy, and the same, the same message to women about like feeling comfortable in their bodies and fueling it, fueling their bodies with good food. Um, and that happy is healthy and healthy is happy.

Yeah, that's all I got for you, Sydney. Yeah, I, uh, appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Do you want to look at that camera and let everyone know where they could find you, what you're working on?

Yeah, I didn't even know where I was supposed to look the whole time, but I was like, it's okay.

You're supposed to just have a— just, just authentic conversation.

Okay, um, you can find me personally, Sydney_KW, on Instagram, also on TikTok, and then FrenchSquirrel.com for our products online. We're also on Amazon and TikTok Shop, etc. And then FrenchSquirrel.co on all socials. Yes. And LinkedIn, obviously.

And LinkedIn.

Yes. Thank you.

That's it.

That was awesome. Thank you so much.