#089: How He Used Organic Content to Build a Brand from Scratch

How do you think about building something that's more or less going against cultural trends?

Right.

Like in a way you're kind of like the anti when you think about like Gen Z, everyone's online, the world's digital. And you guys, you guys are like, wait, slow down for a second. Like turn your phone off.

Yeah. It's always easier to build a brand when there's like a clear enemy. And so interesting.

I'm going to clip that.

Yeah. So maybe like, maybe we're like anti, like the mainstream trend, but. It's pretty easy to make like phone addiction an enemy or social media an enemy or like big tech, like looking down and spying on you, an enemy. So I actually think it's easier when, when you're kind of going against the grain.

Welcome back to Season 4, Episode 12 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have London Glorfield, who's the co-founder and CEO of Kickpack. Thanks for joining today, London.

Of course, man. Of course, dude.

I feel like you've been on quite a journey over the last couple weeks, uh, with a lot of macroeconomic things happening, which we can talk about. And I also wanted you to come on the pod because I feel like you've lived like 3 different lives in your short lifespan thus far, which is pretty cool. Like child pop star— rock star, I should say— and then sold the, sold the company. Now you're building another one. So I think there's a lot of wisdom to be shared here, but maybe just start by giving a quick 2 seconds on what Kickback does.

Yeah, Kickback is a consumer electronic brand. We mostly sell retro tech. Um, our whole goal is to like make products that, you know, do their job perfectly and then leave you alone. I'm kind of sick of just being like glued to my iPhone 24/7, so I wanted to create the antidote. That's what, that's what Kickback is.

I wanted to— I mean, let's just start right at the top. It's like you guys probably got hit harder than most brands by the tariff war that's happening. Um, I think this is, for better or for worse, you're kind of just like the man in the target, but it's like a perfect opportunity to talk about a situation where you see, listening to a founder tell their story, that it's not all perfect all the time. In fact, it's like some of the hardest moments that you will ever endure. Um, I want you to just, just walk through like how you guys have been impacted by the situation and like how you're thinking about it.

Yeah, so I mean, let me preface by saying, you know, we agreed to this pod, I think, like right before the tariff news was announced. And when it was announced, it like hit us like a brick. And I was like, I don't, I don't even know if I should be like talking about Kickback right now because, you know, the horizon feels less clear than it did even a month ago. Um, but then I, then I was like, it's called Turning Pro, it's not pro, and we're very much in the turning moment.

Um, I think you always are, there's just levels to the game. It depends, it depends who you ask.

So I actually think it's like a perfect moment to talk about it because yeah, like you said, we're in the, we're in the absolute thick of it right now. I mean, you know, I think there, there are a couple like macro things that make this moment uniquely challenging. Like one is our products right now. And like by the time this pod comes out, this could be completely different. That's one of the challenges. But in this moment, you know, everything that we import, which is everything, the, the electronics manufacturing world in China is just, you know, very advanced, especially for consumer tech. And, you know, everything costs 140%, 145% more than it did before, like, Liberation Day. Um, we, we'd actually been baking in, like, tariff costs month over month, like, the last 6 months, because we expected something. But we were like, maximum 50% tariffs. We, we never could have imagined 145%. So, you know, it's, it's forced kind of every assumption we had about our business, every price structure that we created. We're, you know, getting ready to go into retail, everything that we'd set up with retail partners. It just, it, you know, it 2.5x'd that cost structure in a day. So we're still figuring that out, that like, just candidly, it's, it's like the answers are still unclear. Um, you know, and I think the, the other kind of prong is the macro environment has just kind of like become a bit more scared. So like, for example, we were about to close a small round of funding to kind of like do this big retail rollout, and rightfully so. Investors are, you know, always a little bit scared about hardware because it's it's hard, like notoriously, but especially scared right now. They're like, why, you know, we could invest in all these different things. Why would we invest in this company that has such direct headwinds? And, you know, straight up, I think they're right. Like, if I were in their shoes, I don't know if I'd invest in this in this moment either, because it is like we're having a— you know, starting a company is hard regardless. And then you throw a trade war on top of that that like very directly affects us. And it's like, wow, like I mean, it's definitely the biggest literal challenge I've ever faced in my career. So yeah, it's interesting. I think we're taking it one day at a time on the one end, figuring out, OK, how do we survive the here and now? And then two, what changes do we need to make to the overarching business to become more resilient and actually get out of this not just alive, but stronger? That's still very much a work in progress.

But I feel like if anyone is in a position to be able to take this challenge head-on, you're, you're probably at the top of my list of people that I would bet on.

Appreciate that.

Um, excuse the dog barking. Um, I, I think it's interesting you speak to this concept of resilience, but like, you also had a crazy career before this.

Totally.

Uh, where you've had to endure different types of challenges, but like, I think What's unique is you're early in your career, relatively speaking, but your wisdom and depth is definitely not as early as maybe your age would suggest. Uh, would love to take a step back and talk about this music career.

Yeah, no, I think, I think you're right. I mean, it's definitely a different kind of resilience, like, but man, like the emotional resilience you have as an artist is, is, is unlike anything else I've done because, you know, you're, you're basically like, You're wearing your heart on your sleeve. You're like selling your music, which is like, you know, a version of you and people are either loving it or hating it depending on the song and depending on the time. So definitely like, you know, I, I can take punches all day long and like, that's fine. Uh, but yeah, anyways, I digress. I started making music when I was like 7 years old. I was in a punk band with my best friend Jake and you know, long story made super short, we just became, head over heels obsessed with music. It's all I did basically in middle school, high school. Ended up kind of building a fan base online towards the end of high school. Signed a record deal, signed to RCA Records when I was like 17 or 18 and ended up touring the country and the world for years thereafter. We built up like a cult following in the US. We would do great shows out here and great tours. Our, our bread and butter was in Asia. We had like a big fan base out in Asia, which was kind of random, kind of funny. But, um, yeah, man, it was, it was, you know, it was like the experience of a lifetime. And, you know, I, I did it for more than half of my life at the time, and I got to a point where I was enjoying the business sides of, of my music career more than actually making music. And that's when I knew it was, it was time to make a change.

Interesting. What were like moments that you can recall if you look back now and you're like, holy shit, I can't believe that I was able to do this. Whether it was like someone that you shared a stage with or a venue that you played at or an audience that you were in front of. Like, were there moments where even now you're still like, pinch myself?

Yeah. I mean, there's like a million of those moments. A few that I guess come to mind right now is there's a venue in New York. It's not huge. I think it's like 3,000 people called Terminal 5. Um, And we did 2 nights there. It was like basically at the very end of our last tour, right before COVID hit. And I flew my whole family out and to like have, you know, my little brother and sister, my mom and like family friends and stuff. And the crowd was sold out. New York audience was like definitely a cool moment. Wow.

So I got chills. Yeah. Hearing you say that.

So that was tight, especially cuz my, my mom was always like so in my corner and there for me through the, the the ups and downs. Um, and then one that was like less, I guess, like emotionally like validating but just like cool was when we were having these hits in Asia. Like, I'd be doing radio interviews with Asian radio stations like all across Southeast Asia, and your songs are like, you know, charting in the top 5 on pop radio there. And like, these are places I'd never been, and I just think that's like That woke me up to, wow, like, the internet's so crazy. Like, still, I've never been to a lot of countries that my songs have impacted, like, hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of people. And that's, that's just cool, you know? It feels like less, like, close to my heart, but it's like, damn, it's still an artifact. Yeah, it's tight. Yeah. Um, so those are a few.

And then I guess, how, how did your relationship change with just, like, social media Yeah, I suppose, because you kind of grew up where it's like you, you had to do it whether you wanted to or not, right? Especially if you wanted to see that music career beyond. It's like, that is the way you communicate with people. And then I think there's an irony in the fact that like you went from a career where it's all about that to kind of like the— not the anti, but it's like the— it's the anti in the sense of like, we're well aware of how bad technology is for you. So while we know you need it and we need to be using it, like, we also want to give you a way to get away from permit.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's like an irony, or it's a subsequent factor of the fact that I was glued to social media for so many years. Um, I think social media is super two-sided. Like, personally, I really dislike it. I, I don't like, you know, spending so much time on social media. And especially when I was making music, I— it became like digital heroin to me. Like, I was, you know, you just constantly validated. And then when that doesn't happen, or like you put out a song that people aren't having a crazy response to, I would, I would like literally get depressed, which It's just not like the best way to live. Um, so, so on a personal level, like just really not a fan. On a career level, social media has been the backbone of what I built my music career on, what I built my creative direction stuff on, and what Kickback's been built on. So it can be hugely beneficial and powerful. It's cool that you can reach anybody on the planet with, with effectively nothing. Like gatekeepers kind of don't exist anymore. And I think that's really exciting. And that's like in its purest form, the beauty of social media, but like on a personal level, I also kind of think it's like just made life for young people worse in some like really real ways. So I think there's a balance there.

I also think we're at an interesting intersection right now in terms of generational perspectives on it, right? Like my parents, like my dad has Instagram, which is like hilarious to me. He's addicted to his phone at this point. Like, he's probably listening to this. So if he hears this, I still love you. But, uh, it was like not something he grew up with, right? And then you have like our generation where we kind of grew into it. And then I'd say the younger kids never knew a world without it.

Totally.

Um, but the irony of that to me as well is that I think there's a huge population of, of kids younger than us that are like aware of this.

Yeah, almost more so. Yeah.

Like, I have a couple stats in front of me. It's like 69% of Gen Z have unplugged from tech voluntarily. 46% actively are trying to reduce screen time. Uh, and those to me are like crazy metrics when technology is literally built for addiction.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, those, those exact insights are like why we started Kickback. I mean, I mean, literally it's insane. You know, we're simultaneously like glued to these things 24/7, but so aware of it as you would be if you were addicted to a drug. That we're all actively trying to do better and change, but that's kind of— there's not like a whole lot of infrastructure for that. And we're like, okay, what could that look like? But yeah, I mean, I think people are— I think people have become quite like aware of the fact of the negatives and downsides of just being glued to this like comparison engine 24/7.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's also personally, it's in its infancy. I think as technology continues to take over, people are going to be more intentional about how do I disconnect. Aren't there like rehab centers for, uh, no, I think it's like, uh, yeah, you should look at unplugging, kind of like it's, it's like addiction to like, I think it, it's probably relative to like a dopamine thing more than anything, but I'm pretty sure there is. And if not, I think it will become something.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, something I've been like interested in thinking a lot about is like, I think there's a huge opportunity for, uh, you know, like super elevated hotels and stuff that are just phone free. Like, I think, I mean, I would personally—

or like just a retreat.

Yeah, that's a—

yeah, like a one-week retreat, 100%. It's like, here, all your kickback supplies.

When you see these things like on the fringe, like for, for, you know, I grew up in Northern California, like, yeah, like hippies have been on that wave, like my parents and their friends, but like in the mainstream it's like not a thing quite yet. And I, and I, I expect there's always an inverse reaction to you know, something so intense at like, like our phone addictions. And as that's just become the absolute status quo, it's exciting to think about what those antidotes can look like.

What about your perspective on the relationship between technology and creativity?

Yeah. So, so with that, like, you know, I actually think technology is like incredible for, for creativity. I think it's amazing, you know, like Um, I, I, I, I'm very much like a, a technologist in that way. Like, I've always used technology to make me a better creative. When I made music, you know, like, like, we made entire albums, like, quite literally in my bedroom on my computer. Like, that is cool as hell. Yeah. With, with Kickback, we design products, like, in 3D render systems on my computer, and then we're able to work with a factory across the world to make that that real. I think that's like— I think it's a huge net positive. I think, um, you know, it's different for everyone. For me, I also like unplugging just to like really get in the flow of things. But I think those two things coexist. Technology is awesome for creativity.

You made a comment to me earlier about a topic that you want to discuss on the podcast, which was that, uh, in regards to like making creativity into like your life's work. Yeah, like people will tell you you're stupid for doing it, there's no money in it. Uh, so I want to go into that, but I want to— I'll give you one anecdote before we talk about that. So I was a theater minor in school, and I think one of the things I realized is that you're at your most creative state when you're a little kid because you don't know anything else. And then society is built in a way to literally trump creativity and put like all these boundaries in place. Right? What's right? What's wrong? It's like seen as almost like this weird unknown thing that most people can't understand.

Yep.

Um, and so you kind of have to fight this uphill battle where you really don't give a fuck about all the people who are telling you you're an idiot for doing it until you can be in your shoes. Like, I actually made my entire career in life out of like following my creativity.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean completely agree with what you just said. I think when I refine down what my life goal is right now, it's just to not lose sight of my childlike imagination. And I think— I think that's powerful. I think the people who I admire most in my personal life, famous creatives, whatever, that's a theme that kind of exists amongst them. Like this, this ability to like not just have that— the ability to not lose like your imagination or, you know, like desire to like dream of things being better or whatever. I think that's like, it's something that creatives that I look up to, to hold on to. And it's hard because through middle school, through high school, you're told that is not a viable thing to do. And I have a huge problem with that. Like, I think that's fucking bullshit. And, you know, honestly, dude, like, one day in my life, who knows, like, I would love to even start like school or some shit. It's like, because I hated school because they told me I couldn't, like, it just wasn't possible to be this way. And the few teachers who did tell me it was possible, like, those people changed my life. So I think it's like, yeah, it's odd that society tells us we can and can't be certain things. Um, I do think that's changing some with the internet and like social media. I actually think people see the possibilities.

Well, because they're seeing people who are creative that are making way more money and having way more success than people who aren't pursuing that. I'll tell you my personal perspective on what I think it is. I think that school is built around this concept of binary outcomes and grades.

Yep.

For the most part, I think creativity is subjective. Right. Like something you make, I might not find to be creative, but someone else might find it to be creative. And obviously it's just on you to find all the people who do think it is.

Yeah.

Whereas in school it's like, take this math test. You either objectively got the question right or wrong. And thus at the end of this, we're going to tell you, like, are you the smartest kid in the class? Are you not? But I think with the concept of creativity, it's way— it's more of like a sliding scale. It's elusive. Yeah, exactly. So I think because you can't put a finger on it, the easiest thing to do is to like box you into this corner of like, this is wrong, you shouldn't do this, it doesn't make sense, so on and so forth. But I do agree with you that over the last like couple years, you're starting to see a shift where it's becoming more table stakes.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think like a mis— this just came in my head, so I don't think it's something I've ever talked about like in an interview with Music or whatever, but like, I, I think something that's misunderstood about like people who make creative endeavors of all forms, their career, is like those are also the most disciplined people I've ever met. I think people, people like connect creativity and sort of like laziness or like dreaminess. And, and I think, you know, the reality is it'd be great to have just more examples of this. Like, you know, the best creatives are so goddamn disciplined and the most focused motherfuckers like that I know, the hardest workers. And I, I wish that— and this is like a, just like a loose end sort of like thought, not really even a question or a comment— but it's like, I wish society made like creativity, you know, a more okay thing to pursue. But also with the caveat that like, yeah, like to be a great— to be great at anything you do, that's especially outside of the norms, there's not a single way to do it. Like, by default, you have to be obsessed and, and so disciplined in that. And I think a lot of, like, younger creatives I know, or a lot of friends of mine growing up who were, like, creative, thought it was just about being creative. And that's, that's something I don't buy. Like, I think if you're just, like, creative but, like, not, you know, obsessively disciplined about refining your creativity, then you're just, like, talking about doing shit and not doing it. And I have like zero respect for that.

Interesting. So what does that mean to you in practice, uh, in terms of like refining your creativity to maintain your status or acumen as like, I guess, a good creative?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's multi-pronged, but the main thing is like the time you put in equates to how good you are. And it's like very simple, you know. I, growing up when I was doing music, like I probably made music 12 to 14 hours a day for like 7 years straight with no validation until all of a sudden I started to get— it compounded. I got a lot better and it's crazy and I got a lot of validation, dude. I was— this is an antidote. I was so goddamn bad at music that in middle school, like I think it was in 6th grade, we had like music class and I was literally held back at school, like at recess to practice because I was like worse than everyone in my class at music, which I think speaks volumes. Like, you know, that's just like, I was, I just loved this thing and I was disciplined about it. Um, so I think, I think creativity, like you gotta like have self-awareness about the things you care about, but if you care a lot about something, I think in many ways it can be learned.

Okay, so that was my next point is like, what do you, what do you think is the fine line between like born with talent versus like, no, if you care enough, like you can, like, do you think someone who, I don't know, I guess the easiest way to say this without stereotyping too hard is like walk into an investment bank and just find like, you know, the dude who fits the bill for every single thing you'd expect out of, you know, yeah, goes to Harvard, gets the MBA, goes to Goldman, blah blah blah.

Yeah.

Like that person you think could just become creative if you're like—

I mean, I think it's hard to like unlearn what you know. So could somebody who's gone to undergrad and then gotten their MBA and then worked at Goldman for 6 years like unlearn everything and like pursue something entirely creative? Like, in theory, yes. I think it's a lot harder. But I think when you're young and like you're— there's still so much space for your kind of like brain to evolve and you don't have that much learned experience. I think, you know, I think there is natural talent. I don't want to like be here saying anyone can do anything. Like, like LeBron James is always going to be a better athlete than me, point blank period. Like, that's like— he's born with some gifts, but also he's probably the most disciplined motherfucker out there, you know? And I think like same with music, entrepreneurship. Like there's some, you know, a lot of my friends who are tech founders are like definitely without question have higher IQs than I do. Like, like they're very smart in that way, you know. I'm never gonna be able to code as well as they— as well as they do, but it doesn't mean you can't get crafty and figure out your angle. So can everybody be like, you know, a touring rock star or whatever? Like, probably not. But if you— if you immerse yourself in your creative curiosity and— and your discipline about it, will end up somewhere great. I do believe so.

How do you strike the balance between, like, pursuing your creativity or creative curiosities and also just like the fundamental business aspect of like capitalism, right? Yeah. So I think there's some creators or creatives who actually just do very well, but they really don't think about or care about like the money aspect of the monetization. It's more a byproduct of like the work that they do.

Yeah. That's a great question. And I'm trying to think how, like, it's hard to answer outside of like my lived experience. Like, you know, I think there are some creators who are just, you know, purely do it because they just love it. Like, and that is the only reason they do it. And they do it, you know, for 10 years straight and then begin to kind of get successful. Like, that's not me. So I can't really speak to that. Um, for me, I, I always looked at like my creativity as my vessel for the best outcome I could have on like a success and money level. Like that, I was like, this is the shit I'm good at, like I'm gonna double and triple down on this. So it's not that I don't like love creativity and like my creative curiosity, but like I always approach this like it was a path to something. Like, you know, I, I, it was never like an elusive thing. I'm just making music to make music. Like I I love making music, but I, I don't think I would have done it if I didn't think that like there was a path. I believed I could make it a thing. Yeah.

And I, but I don't, I don't think every creative operates that way. No, but that's what I think is your unique angle is like, you almost have this ability to like step in and out of that like zone of genius per se.

Uh, way too nice.

No, but like, no, but it's like you can go into being—

Zone of mediocre talent.

Zone of mediocrity. You can step into the zone of being like pure creative, like leave me alone, I'm, you know, I'm just doing my thing, versus like, all right, I understand the business side of this. Like, where is the marriage between these two things and what does that actually look like?

Yeah, and I think that's what's hard about creativity is there's not like, again, there's not a way to like make it work or do it. And, you know, for me, exactly kind of how you just explained it, like that's what works for me. But I have friends of mine who are extraordinarily successful in music and don't give a shit about the money. So it's like, it's just hard to say, you know. I think, I think in entrepreneurship and like, you know, anything that's like business adjacent or where it's like, you know, being a musician and like singing for audiences, like that's a very, very particular version of creativity. But like being a creative entrepreneur or whatever, I mean, I think you have to also you know, not only care about the business, but like be willing to do all of the things that are not creative at all and just grunt work. Like with Kickback right now, dude, last 6 months, it's— I mean, to a point where it's actually been a little bit hard for me personally. Like, like it hasn't really been creative last 6 months. It's been just dealing with like logistics and that's part of it, you know. So it's definitely not all like roses. Like, I mean, I would argue doing stuff you care about and have a creative investment in— the flip side is like you care a lot more, so the outcomes or the challenges feel personal even when they're not. Yeah, yeah.

What is it like building a business with your sibling?

Yeah, um, It's interesting. I think, you know, my family is very tight-knit, like we're thick as thieves, so it works. But it's hard. Like, I'll be honest. Like, you know, when you have so much love and care for somebody on like a personal level— my little sister, you know, works with Kickback. It's just a different vibe. Like when I was when I've been involved in other projects, I have no problem just separating like business from relationship. Like, that's like totally something like that's not an issue for me. But with like the family dynamic, it— that becomes harder. So I would say like that is the challenge. The positive is like, you know, you're, you're you can hit that person up at any point in the 24-hour day, no matter what day, no matter when, and talk for 3 hours because it's family. And you know there's nothing weird about that because you've known this person forever, and there's just an unspoken understanding. That's cool. Um, so we'll see. I guess the outcome of Kickback will be the—

I mean, I also— I think it's interesting too because it's like you're going through really tough times building something with someone you care about, you know, it's like, I feel like those raw emotions and real stresses that are life, like, bring out the best or worst in people. Yeah, for better or for worse.

Totally agree.

Um, I want to speak a little bit about, like, just your overall general thesis of, like, Gen Z and your insight into why you're building what you're building alongside your sister.

Yep.

Um, I think you're very in tune with, like, the cultural element of this. Like, my favorite part about it is how you guys find a way to just always strike cool, but you also, like, recognize what this audience is asking for.

Yeah.

Right? So like, there's this bold bet that like these people want a way to disconnect in a world of people who only use technology. I feel like it's contrarian to some degree, uh, although I agree with it. Yeah. So I'm curious to hear a little bit more about like the rabbit hole you went down to get to what is now Kickback.

Yeah, so Kickback is not a company like you would start by just thinking about starting a company.

No, not at all.

At all. Like, I did not really intentionally start Kickback. We, uh, you know, I guess this was like summer 2023 or like fall 2023. Um, I was just throwing a bunch of ideas at the wall. I started like 6 different like little projects within like the span of a month with my siblings because we were all, uh, hanging in the same home for like a month. We're all in like these transitional periods. Um, so we were at our mom's house for like a month, this like special little moment, and we were just like, you know, shooting the shit, like talking about different ideas and I had one idea that I thought was just going to be viral, which was like if people could submit a Spotify playlist to a website, that playlist was turned into a cassette tape, that would like go crazy. I was just like, that would go insane online.

Oh, that's a brilliant idea.

So we made a TikTok. We had no— I'd never done like, you know, any physical good brand. Like I'd only done like music and software. I'd never done like a product.

Yeah.

So we literally just like mocked up some renders of like a cassette player, this cassette tape, and like made this website. I had no idea where we were gonna get the supplies from, if it was even possible. I got— I, I didn't grow up with cassette tapes. I didn't know if it was possible to like put a playlist onto them. But we like made this TikTok and it got like a million views in an hour. Like we literally posted one TikTok, it went crazy. Mistakenly, probably we had like an order link, so we got like 2,000 orders within the first couple of days of this TikTok being live. And we're like, oh shit, how do we do this? So I'm not gonna bore you with how we figure it out. Also, we may or may not want this in the podcast, but this is illegal. Like, we were selling music. Like, we were selling copyrighted music, which as a musician I thought should have like thought about, but it just didn't even cross my mind.

So we I'm like sitting here enthralled in this story. I'm like, fuck, I didn't think about that either.

I never thought about it until like, until everyone was like, this is illegal, dude. But we were running this like illegal business out of our New York City apartment.

What's the, um, platform that everyone used to buy their songs off?

Like Napster? Or like, what do you like? Yeah, yeah, Napster was like the legal one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, that's what it like reminds me of.

Yeah, basically. So horrible business, like across the board, like super viral, but like the worst business in practice. Like, A, illegal, so not a good starting point. B, super manual. Like, we were literally ordering like thousands of blank cassette tapes, and in our apartment in New York City, which is like a small-ass New York City apartment, we had like 12 tape recorders running at once, like simultaneously. My sister would just be in there recording different playlists on sets, like, all day every day for like 2 months straight to fulfill these like thousands of orders. It was like an awful like business. It just like was so time intensive that like probably our, you know, we were probably being paid like a dollar an hour, like all said and done. It was terrible. Fulfilled these orders. But anyways, long story made short, that was like the genesis for Kickback. I started talking to like a bunch of the people who were ordering and Just notice a couple of themes. Like one, there's a very clear like kind of customer. Like it was basically like, you know, women under like 25, like we're like almost entirely. And then two, I would just ask them like, why are you into this? And they were like, there were two answers we consistently get. One was like, all these like tech product brands are like super dude-coded. We were like, oh yeah, that's definitely facts. You just look at like anything from, you know, Apple to like Android and Samsung. Like, I mean, they're— Apple's obviously beautiful, but there's just like a, a guy-ness to it.

100. It's a really good point.

So there's that. And then two, they were like, I just love the idea of, you know, again, this was the cassettes at the time, but taking like a cassette on a road trip or something and like leaving my phone behind. I was like, that's probably not realistically gonna happen, but like, that's a really interesting thought, and I wonder if we can use that like emotional tailwind to build something cool that's about, you know, celebrating like your real life and less so about like living online.

And then what were the first couple— I know, I mean, some of the products you put out are amazing, but like what are some of the first couple that were inspired beyond like obviously the cassette? That was the illegal, the illegal, the illegal idea.

Illegal apartment.

Uh, yeah, so I mean, and then I guess my second question to piggyback off that is like, what is the creative process that goes into deciding like what's viable and what should we give to these people?

Yeah, so, you know, we, we've really started with like audio tech, speakers, headphones, record player, because, you know, music and like listening to music is to me like the epitome of a kickback at my house in high school. Like if I had a kickback all my homies were over, music was always playing. So we're like, let's just like create the products for that. It's like step one. Um, the creative process— sorry, just kicked the dog.

Oh good, she's chilling. Okay.

Um, the creative process is, you know, myself and our designer Nicholas just like, you know, creating the broad picture goal. So we want to make this kind of product, we want to make a record player, like What, what would the flyest, most fun kind of cool record player look like? And we'll start, you know, messing with different material ideas, seeing what's like logistically like not possible, but like doable, I guess, for like a small company. That's been a big thesis on like the business side is using commoditized technology as much as possible and focusing on design. I think a lot of hardware brands are like dead upon arrival because they try reinventing the wheel and that's insanely expensive.

Yeah, but you guys are taking the nostalgia angle, so it's like take something that already exists and make it cool.

Yeah, so we take, we take existing technologies and make it cool and make it accessible. Um, and even with like more modern technologies, like if we were to make a phone one day, it's like all those like parts and components exist. Like you don't need to reinvent that wheel, it works really well. So it's like, where can we differentiate? And for us right now, at least that's a design, you know, brand and sort of like the cult community we've built around it.

Where do you draw your inspiration from in terms of like maybe brands that you look up to that you think have like done it very well, uh, that inspire your creative direction? And it could be tech or not tech.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I was going to say like, we definitely, like, we definitely look at like clothing brands more than we do tech brands. Um, interesting. Just because I think they do a much better job like tapping into the culture.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's valid. What are a couple that are top of mind for you right now?

Yeah, so I mean, you know, my favorite brand personally is Acne Studios out of Stockholm, and they just like tap in in a really cool way. Um, where's my, uh, I don't know where the logo is.

These pants are—

oh really? Yeah, yeah.

So damn, I'm doing well.

Hell yeah. Um, but then like, you know, I personally don't like buy Supreme or anything, but you look at like what they built and it's just like incredible.

Um, the line is around the corner. Yeah, every day still.

It's—

there's one down Spring.

It's insane. Um, so I think there's like a lot of cool culture built around, you know, same as like run clubs. It's cool to see like the brand, like, uh, what's that, the Bandit Running Company?

Yeah, Bandit Running.

Yeah, like what they've built is super cool. I think like that really inspires us just more from a cultural angle. Um, and then like OG, like Apple and Sony is like so fly. Like to me, when you look at like, not like, like late '90s, early 2000s, like Apple, I mean like the first iPod type shit, iPod, but not even because it's like retro, just like the cultural relevance that shit had. Like you probably remember, you know, you and I were, were like babies back then, but like the, the four-color, like, Apple posters with, like, the headphones. Like, it's just like iconic. And I think unfortunately, just because they've become such a commodity at this point, Apple products, you know, it's hard to keep that cultural coolness to the same degree. Same as Sony, the colorful Walkman, uh, cassette players in the '80s, I guess. Like, we love that. But yeah, as far as, like, new brands definitely more like clothing, beauty companies do a great job. Like Hailey Bieber's company is something we look to a lot, is like they've created amazing, you know, cultural like relevance. Same as like, um, Alo Yoga even is like a brand that I'm like super inspired by.

How do you think about building something that's more or less going against cultural trends, right? Like in a way you're kind of like the anti when you think about like Gen Z, everyone's online, the world's digital, and you guys, you guys are like, wait, it's slow down for a second, like turn your phone off.

Yeah, it's always easier to build a brand when there's like a clear enemy. And so interesting, I'm gonna clip that. Yeah, so maybe like, maybe we're like anti like the mainstream trend, but it's pretty easy to make like phone addiction an enemy, or social media an enemy, or like big tech like looking down and spying on you an enemy. Um, so I actually think it's easier when, when you're kind of going against the grain.

But do you think there's like a resource element to that? Think about like how many touch points consciously or subconsciously that happen from these like mega tech giants, like an Apple for example, right? It's like how many Apple products are literally just like sitting in this room right now? Like how many ads are you going to see everywhere you go, every place you are? It's like for every maybe one Kickback touchpoint, there's probably thousands of Apple touchpoints.

Yeah.

And there's a sheer like volume basis.

Yeah.

So is the approach more that like if you do something contrarian, you can slowly build like a— it might be a smaller audience, but like one that's like maniacal and obsessed with whatever your mission is.

I mean, I think any like massive company usually starts with a more maniacal niche that's like cultish and like cares a lot about something very specific, and I think that can compound in a really like massive way over a long period of time. Like, like all these companies you just mentioned, like Apple being a prime example, like they were very much going against the grain when they started. Now it's the status quo. I mean, to stand out, like everything, dude, everything, fucking everything is commoditized. Everything's saturated. Like you work with a bunch of brands. Like a successful beauty brand isn't successful because they're a beauty brand. No, you know, not at all. And so I think it's like people subscribe to stories. Yeah, people subscribe to stories. I think it's easier to at least kickstart that when your story is like a fuck you to the status quo.

I mean, what time— what time horizon do you see yourself building Kickback over? Is this something— because you make the comment like, you know, it takes decades, so on and so forth. Like, is this something you can see yourself doing for—

yeah, I mean, I, I think Kickback's going to evolve. I think we're in this moment right now with kind of like the macro reality, tariffs, um, specifically, that it's gonna force some evolutions. But I think some form of Kickback is like my next decade of work. Like, I care a lot about this. Like, I I also, dude, I'm competitive. Like, the idea of like fucking up these incumbents is so fun to me. Like, it's so fun. It's so, it's so like playful. You can just like fuck around.

You have nothing to lose.

You have nothing to lose. And I think so, so I don't know, you know, if we do this, this podcast in 10 years from now, I'm sure Kickback will be something different than it is right now. Like, this is, this company's existed for a year. It's very new. But the core thesis and vibe around it, I think, is something I care enough about to really sink my teeth into.

On the last episode that I filmed for this podcast, something we were talking about was the concept of founder market fit.

Yeah.

Right? It's like you can meet someone who's maybe pursuing an idea because I think it's a good idea, or you can meet someone who's pursuing something because it's their life's work and they've been personally affected by it. I feel like you very much fall into that second bucket, which is a positive signal.

I think, see, I— this kind of goes back to like the creative like conversation we're having. I actually think it's just so much harder to build something that you're not like personally involved in and like personally care about.

I just don't really think it's that viable.

Yeah, I mean, I, I can't say because I've never done it. Yeah, but like starting a company is like just baseline hard. So if you don't like really care, you're like, uh, whatever, like, you know, I could create like, I don't know, like some SaaS company. Like, I would be bored. I could not do that as well as somebody who maybe understands a market or industry. Like, in the same way that person couldn't do what I'm doing as probably as well as I am.

What would you say are the biggest surprises or biggest learnings from trying to build a hardware company? Yeah, so I actually have been— I've been sitting here thinking about it. You might be the I'm trying to think. You might— you're one of— if you're one of, if not the first, like, hardware founder.

Yeah, that's been on the pod, man. Every founder should like try doing it because it's like a really fast learning.

I don't even— I, I know my first step. I don't know my second. My first step would be call London, and the second one I'm not sure.

Yeah, like literally it's, it's, it's super challenging. I mean, so hardware is uniquely complicated because there are so many, uh, component touch points in, in one device. So like, if you're making a speaker, it's not like just a speaker. There's like 10 or 15 different like little pieces that come from different manufacturers. I'm not like really a details person, so that has been personally like super challenging for me. It's been, I would say, the most frustrating part of this business. Um, You know, hardware is also just like, it's just challenging in every way. It is literally challenging in every way, um, which is why I think we're curious about how can we like build on what we've started, you know, and, and kind of like evolve the brand and the business model some. Because hardware, like, on its face too, just like, I think something that I was naive to is how expensive it is. Like, even with our approach, which is like I would argue probably the lightest approach you possibly could take. How so? Well, because we're, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel on anything. It's all, you know, utilizing commoditized components as much as possible. So like what's inside our speakers, this is the same thing that's in like a Bose speaker or something. We're not reinventing that. Um, keeps a lot the R&D cheaper. But it's still just a fortune, dude. Like, if you're selling a product for, you know, hardware product for $400 or something, it's like the cogs on that are probably at least $200, $250. And it's like we're selling thousands and thousands of units. So fronting that money as a new business is just very challenging. And, uh, you know, it's, it's just, it just comes with some built-in complexities that I, I didn't think about until I was like in the driver's seat, which is kind of the best way to learn, but also creates a, a very high degree of stress, I would say.

Yeah, but I think there's certain things that you can't— like, you can't predict every aspect of it. Like, yeah, you can expedite your learning curve by talking to people who've like done it before, but every business has their own unique spin or take on like how you're doing something. So when you really get into the nuances of it, it's never going to be one for one compared to what someone else has done.

Totally. Yeah. And then shit happens. Like, you know, the beauty of software companies is it's like, of course they're, they're affected by external factors, but I think not as much in like a literal way. Whereas like, you know, tariffs come along and it's like it changes our whole business overnight. And that's something that is just like mentally a shift for me from other things I've done, like music or software. It's like you can do it from wherever, external factors just don't affect the businesses as much as they do when you're working with different countries to produce these hard goods.

Yeah, it's actually a fair point. How much thought went into the external pieces of this that are completely out of your control before you started the company?

Dude, zero. Zero. I just didn't think about it. It's just something I had zero lived experience doing. So like, I didn't even know to think about it, you know? I thought about all the shit that I've had a bunch of experience in, like marketing and blowing something up online. I was like, yeah, like, you know, cool-ass looking hardware, that's gonna be relatively easy to like blow up online, which has proven to be totally true. But I didn't even think about— I thought it was just like you know, going to a factory and telling them what you wanted, and then they give it to you, then they give it to you and you sell it and you make money.

Exactly. What I guess for people listening, like, what would, what would your takeaway be from this situation? Whether it's like next time you start a business, sit there and think about all the reasons this thing fails, or it's like you follow your passions and you fuck around and find out?

Yeah, I think you got to just jump in. Like, I wouldn't probably done anything different. Like, this is gonna lead to something exceptionally cool. I just don't know exactly what that thing's gonna end up being like in the long run. But I think people spend far too much time generally, like, thinking about doing something instead of just, like, doing it. And it's like, you're gonna— your learning curve is gonna be so vertical if you just jump in. And you're gonna look like a fucking fool sometimes. Like, and that's okay, I think. Like, I mean, obviously it depends on your risk tolerance, but like, if you're risk tolerant, just jump in, man. Like, what do you— especially if you're like, you know, our age, it's like, what do you have to lose? At the very end of the day, you know, I went through this experience and I got— I, I don't want to get deep into this, but like, my dad got super sick and ended up passing away a couple of years ago, and it really put shit in perspective where I was like most things are just not that, like, tough. Like, entrepreneurs love to talk about how, how stressed they are and how, like, overwhelming it is. It's like, bro, it's not that fucking deep. Like, honestly, it's not that deep. Like, very worst case right now is, like, this company fails, which, like, I really don't want to happen. I don't believe it's going to happen. But, like, what's the worst case scenario? I don't have kids. Like, I don't have anyone to take care of.

It's, um, it's a really interesting and timely anecdote. I had like a very close family friend pass away a few weeks ago in a car accident. She's 6 years old. Uh, and it's okay. It's not, not intended to make this a morbid conversation. It was more just that like, cause I'm, I'm fully guilty of this notion you just referenced of like, you talk about how stressed you are and I have so much shit. And then it's like when a real life event happens, you all of a sudden forget, like, everything that you thought was important.

Totally.

And it's about, like, figuring out how do you calibrate yourself or remember that in moments where you don't need— you shouldn't have to wait for some tragedy to occur for you to, like, zoom out and be like, wait, it's not that serious. It's like how sometimes, unfortunately, that's what it takes for certain people to, like, realize that, you know, like, I had a— I have a very good friend of mine who went through Y Combinator, was like this venture-backed founder building this crazy thing. Uh, got sick while doing it. He was literally like beating himself up grinding and then had like this light, you know, flash before his eyes about his own life and like left the company, moved home, is now making music actually. Oh really? Um, and was like, life's too short. I need to like pursue my passions. Why did I fall into this vicious cycle of what everyone else told me I was supposed to be doing? Uh, which again, it's to the point of like, for better or for worse, had this big eye-opening thing happen that changed his course. But I appreciate you mentioning that because I'm very much someone who like struggles from like, I think amplifying some of the challenges that I face because it's almost like a way of processing it in times where you don't know what else to do. But it's just not that. It's not that deep. Yeah, it's like we get, we get to make those our stressors or challenges because it could always be worse.

And like, listen, dude, like building a company, like it is stressful. Like I don't want to be like, oh yeah, it's like easy or something like this shit. Like there are definitely easier career paths, but it's just like you got to be able to separate yourself from that, like from the career a little bit sometimes, which is a bit anecdotal to everything— or not anecdotal, bit like, bit inverse to everything I just said about creativity. Like, it's very personal, but it's a, it's a superpower if you can learn to separate yourself even from the things you care so much about sometimes. And especially with building a company. I mean, I literally said, like, I think it was an investor update or something. I was like, I think this, the secret to like what Kickback has done well so far is that it's just not that deep. We're not trying to like be high-minded about what we're doing. We're just like kind of fucking around and having fun. And I think, you know, our target audience, which is like young people, that's how they approach life. Um, so it's like, yeah, it's not that deep.

How do you put that into practice in your day-to-day?

I think so. Like, 5 years ago, like, this moment we're in right now with Kickback would have been like— I wouldn't have been doing this interview. I would have been like stressing the fuck out, like, about like the tariffs and the unknowns. I think now, I mean, how I put in practice is I viciously focus on the things that are within my control and just don't pay that much attention to the things that aren't. So I find action is, for me, the antidote to freaking out. And I can't really take action directly to change the tariff situation. That's just not within my power. But I can take action to be super upfront with all of the different retailers that we're partnering with about our situation so my cards are on the table, so they know what's up, so I don't feel like I'm lying to people. I can take action to introduce potentially new revenue streams to Kickback or new product lines that are more tariff resilient. There are a million things within my control. So it's like either I'm gonna be a victim to this larger situation or like just not almost pay that— I mean, of course you got to be aware of what's happening, but not pay that much, you know, energy to that and, and focus on the things that like I can do.

It's ironic because I, as you know, I always ask everyone like what is their biggest turning pro moment.

Yeah.

And I feel like you gave me the answer like before I actually asked the question.

Yeah, I mean, if this will be for sure, I mean, dude like, yeah, this is a, this is a challenge that, yeah, I just don't have the answers to, and they, and they're not coming like immediately. So it's like, it— assuming I survive this, which I think I will, um, I'll come out of this with a lot more information than I, than I had.

Coming out on the other side of this, fast forward 10 years, what do you want Kickback to be remembered for?

Yeah, I think, I think the big thing is we, we just want to bring like fun and coolness into like the electronic space. I think that's really missing. So on like a culture level, I just want to be, I want to be associated with like, like music and youth culture in a way that I think other, other tech brands are not, uh, generally. And then, you know, I think More personally, I want Kickback to be a home for the smartest creatives on the planet. So like, I want to be able to hire and bring in the coolest motherfuckers with the coolest ideas, the most creative approaches to life and a business. And I, you know, when I close my eyes and like dream about like what that looks like, I'm at a picture like a physical place full of just wonderfully talented people. Um, That's the shit that like turns me on, that gets me so excited, being surrounded by those people. And I would love if Kickback can be like a launch pad for that, um, in some form factor.

Do you have one person who's like your dream collab or like artist that you would love to build something with in Kickback?

I mean, honestly, not really. Like, it's, it's not like—

it's not that deep.

It's not that deep. It's not like about like idols. It's more just like, I like the idea of bringing in like like young people who are like super dope but maybe like kind of not, not discovered yet. I think that, that would be amazing. I mean, I would love to collaborate with like all my favorite artists and do like limited drops and stuff, but that's more like because I think that would be super beneficial to the business. When I'm speaking like from my heart level, it's like I want this to be just a emporium of like creativity. I think that'd be super tight.

London, I appreciate you coming on the pod today, dude.

Of course, bro. Thank you for having me.

You want to look at the camera and let everyone know where they could find you and what you're working on?

Yes, uh, you can find us at kickback.myc on Instagram or kickback.world on the interwebs.

Awesome.

Hell yeah. Later.

Boom.

Cool.

What do you think?

Hello.