#091: Meet the guy that built a 7-fig business with memes

What was like the stupidest meme that actually became like the most impactful? Like one where you're like, this makes no sense, but actually drove like— so you get what I'm trying to say.

I can say this now. So I saw this, somebody posts the ramp, you know, the Ramp logo.

Yeah.

And it's a ramp. So this is a B2B SaaS company and somebody edited it into a penis. And so I tweeted that and I ended up with a very large deal with their competitor. Because of that.

No way.

Yeah.

Welcome back to Season 4, Episode 14 of the Turning Pro Podcast. Today we have Jason Levin, who's the founder of Memelord Technologies.

Yes sir, now memelord.com.

Did you get memelord.com?

Let's just say it was more than friend.com, my friend.

Well, so I'm just gonna— the reason I just like jumped into the intro is because I feel like we were already having a conversation that should have been like part of the official recording. Uh, so I was like, all right, I'll say what your name is and then we can pick up where we left off. The comment that I was gonna make to you was that my friend Milad made a comment to me one time about how he started content because it felt like a digital diary for himself that he could look at years in advance. And I was like, damn, like when you think about making content, if it all fails in the sense that you don't monetize it, you don't build an audience, like 40-year-old me to be able to look back and be like 'Yo Jason, remember when we were having this conversation about memelord.com and you were like trolling people with memes and no one believed you that like you actually can make a billion dollar business out of it?' Yeah, exactly. And ideally by the time I decide to sit down and watch it, it already like happens.

Dude, it's a beautiful feeling. I look back at my tweets. So I've been tweeting since I was like 13, 14, uh, just in, you know, middle school, high school. And I look back and I see me tweeting about Chipotle, girls, all the stuff at school. I look back tweeting, there's literally a tweet from like 2011, 2012 where it's like, this is me like being in high school, being like, if you don't work on your dream, you're going to work for somebody else's. That was me in high school, like manifesting this shit, you know? And so even, you know, I use that as motivation. And the same way, like looking back at my Facebook profile pictures, like years before I was doing silly Photoshop with edits of literally like the same thing I do now, you know, my face, silly graphics, like just making memes, like Yeah, whatever you do, whether, whether you're monetizing or not, like as a diary for yourself, like it's a beautiful thing. Like it's, uh, you know, some people are against that. They don't want to overshare, but like you don't have to share the super stuff, but it's nice to share that stuff. It's nice to share it and look back and like see how much you've grown, you know, and see your dreams literally manifest in real time, like from, from your thoughts, you know? Yeah.

I mean, I think the beauty of content also, I mean, unless you just go completely in the deep end, like you have control over what is on camera and what's not.

Yeah, right.

So as long as there's some amount of your life or dream that you feel comfortable sharing, like, you just should.

100%, dude. There's really the only downside of it, uh, is, uh, like, there's the, the, the risk is asymmetric where the upside is so much higher, especially as a young person. The amount of people that I've met from just sharing my random thoughts, my, my memes, my goofy stuff, the amount of people, the doors that has opened. I'm a dropout. You know, meeting fucking billionaires and talking to people and, and famous people and whatever. And it's like, you know, I got a text earlier, hey, forwarding this email to Ashton Kutcher, right? Like, what? Like, like my dreams of being 15 watching That '70s Show, like, this shit is coming true because I shared my weird thoughts on the internet and was just being, being who I was and being consistent and sharing that. Like, the risk, okay, fine. Like, yeah, 'Yeah, some fucking kids from high school think I'm an idiot,' or like, 'Think I'm a loser,' or 'Cringe.' Like, who the fuck cares? Like, I'm happy as fuck, you know?

Yeah, but what's crazy though is that thing you just said is the reason that so many people will go through their whole life like never actually posting on the internet.

Yeah, I just don't give a shit, man. Like, cringe is, uh, it's not— not cringe is not trying. Cringe is being too afraid to try, you know? Also, like, I love this line of like, 'Cringe is in the eye of the colder, right? It's in the eye of the cringer, right? And like, I have these photos that I wrote— this piece is called Cringe is the New Cool, you Google it— and, uh, there's these photos of Travis Scott, right? He is, uh, performing in Houston when he's, you know, just coming up, right, in the rap scene. There's like 12 kids at his show, right? Like, nowadays, if some, some friend of yours was rapping and just his friends were there, right, like, oh, that, that kid, that guy's cringe as Oh, that's cringe. I was like, Travis Scott throws concerts so big people die. Like, everybody starts cringe until you're rich, and then you're a fucking genius, right? And it's like, just got to get through that cringe valley, you know, and then people realize eventually.

I think one of the unique parts about it though, and you definitely hold true to what I'm about to say, is like, you started posting content on the internet, uh, not because you had any fucking clue of what it could become. It was just like your form of expression.

Dude, I got a Windows laptop for my 10th birthday and just immediately started playing around on Movie Maker. I always loved, you know, movies like growing up, you know, my dad is a big movie guy and like I just loved making silly stuff. So like there's videos still in my private YouTube of like, you know, all the goofy stuff of like me and my friends rip sticking and I would like put these rainbow effects on and then like my little dog, my dog when I was a kid, like I made this video called Buddy. In his natural habitat. It's just my dog running around and me following him, you know. Uh, like when I was 12, I went to a video editing summer camp and like made all these like video edits and shit like that and learned how to do green screens and stuff like that. Like, yeah, I mean, for me it was just always self-expression. I didn't know what it was becoming. It was still early days of YouTube when you think about it. Like, sure, there were some, some big ones, but like, uh, I didn't really know that like all this, all this could work. And like tweeting. It was just like making my friends laugh. Like, honestly, like, I smoked a lot of weed in high school and just like had a lot of weird thoughts. It's just like tweeting out at night, like flirting with girls.

Such a good quote, you know.

Like, that was just— that was what I did. And like, um, I don't know, it's just a way to like share my thoughts. I have like a very weird inner monologue and like I just want to share shit.

You made it an external monologue.

Yeah, exactly. You know, it's— you kind of go crazy if you, if you just keep it to yourself all the time, you know.

I feel like you actually are the blueprint of this podcast.

I appreciate it, man.

You know, like the concept of turning pro, like even from when we met to now, like watching— I think were you, you were working at Product Hunt?

Yeah, I had a W-9 or a full-time or whatever. What is it, W-2?

W-2.

I can't keep it straight.

That's how, that's how, that's how much, that's how much you know that you were not meant to do it is because you didn't even, you You did it. You just don't know the name of the form.

I still don't know, man. I mean, I was freelancing on the side, so I still had all these forms. I can't keep it straight. But like, yeah, I always growing up, I grew up in like suburbs, Pennsylvania, didn't have any like connections to startups, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, nothing. Right. And I always dreamed of like being a comedian or making like silly stuff and getting paid for it. Right. And it took a long time of doing it and compounding like. Uh, everything starts like very, very slow. And I, if I could give one piece of advice to people out there is like, even during those slow days, just like focus on like making yourself laugh, like impressing yourself, right? Surprising yourself. Like I've written my newsletter 186 Sundays straight, right? Like I just try to impress myself every week, you know?

Like I— That's wild.

Yeah. It's consistency, dude, of just like doing it again and again. I turned pro, so I read you know, Steven Pressfield about like 2, 3 years ago. And, uh, wrote, he wrote this great line about how like he wants to be the friend when people ask him, uh, hey, you want to go golf? And he's like, nah, I'm too busy writing. Like I need to get my words in. Right. And I read that and it was like, I need to go pro.

Right.

Like that's the only way is like you treat your art like somebody treats a, you know, an athlete treats a sport, you know, like, like Kobe. But yeah, man, it's like, It took a while. It pays off, you know. It's, uh, I don't know if you've ever listened to like Russ or something like that. Uh, Rabbri's got, you know, a great line that I listened to 78 years ago of like, you know, 10 years making beats, patience tastes bitter, but the aftertaste is so sweet, right? Like, takes a while, but like, that aftertaste is pretty sweet, you know.

It's, um, it's a very important topic. I think it's something that most people who see it don't actually want to accept, that it's just the reality of it. Yeah, everybody's like, someone, someone will go on your Twitter and be like, oh, this guy just like tweets and has a lot of followers. Like, motherfucker, this guy's been doing this for a decade. Yeah, like he deserves— what, decade plus? Like, he deserves to have the ability to like get into rooms and open doors and do things. Um, and what's interesting about it actually is that I like— dude, my identity was a hockey player for the first 24 years of my life. Yeah, like I didn't do much outside of that. Yeah, sure, I was in high school and college, I was like a curious entrepreneurial kid, so I would like— yeah, I was talking about this with JT. I had like a campus coat check business. I tried to launch an app when I was in high school. Like I did side hustles like in college, so like I, I knew that that was like inside of me, but for all intents and purposes, like my identity was playing hockey.

Did you want to go pro for hockey?

Uh, yeah, I had the— I actually had the opportunity to play professionally, uh, and then COVID flipped my my world upside down. You never heard this story?

No, no, I've never heard this story.

Yeah, I mean, not— I don't— I think people listening to this probably have, but I'll give you like the SparkNotes version of it. It's basically, I moved away from home when I was 15 years old. I went to a boarding school for hockey. I then lived in—

you're one of those kids? Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. I've heard about those kids.

I was one of those kids. So I did—

you were like—

I made it till I did sophomore year of public high school in Buffalo, which is where I was from. Then I moved away to Connecticut, did 3 years of high school there. Then I went and lived in Canada for a year. So I lived in Fort McMurray, Alberta, which, you know where that is?

It sounds like bum—

pull out, pull out, pull out your phone, pull out your phone and go on Google Maps and type in Fort McMurray, Alberta.

Is it North Canada?

Just, just go look. I'll let you—

Fort McMurray.

Fort McMurray, Alberta.

Dude, Google Maps can't even find it.

That's the best way to describe it. Google Maps can't even find it.

Big.

Yeah. Oh yeah, it's huge.

It's up here.

So I lived in, I lived in Fort McMurray. It got to like -40. But anyways, I was there. Yeah, I was there for a year. Then I went to Colgate. Um, okay, Colgate. This is the part that's like cool and gut-wrenching at the same time. I went into Colgate, I played 8 games my freshman year. I was like, all right, well, it looks like I'm just like the GPA booster on this team and I'm here for a good time. And like, I got into a school that I shouldn't have gotten into because I was good at hockey. And you know what, it is what it is. Like, the thing that people don't know about this is like, when you're one of the guys that doesn't play that many games, like any sport, a guy who had ever gone through that, you earn respect for those others because you don't— that doesn't mean you get to work less hard. You actually have to work harder, right? Because like, when you're not playing that weekend, you're the guy that has to stay on the ice and like always be ready. Like, you never know. So Sounds cliché, but it's real. So I played 8 games freshman year. After my freshman year, this actually is a story I'm about to tell you I don't think I've ever shared on the podcast. Uh, and honestly, I have no shame in sharing it, but you'll understand why once you hear it. I, after my freshman year, I got an internship in New York City because at that point I was like, all right, like hockey is going to end. I need to prioritize some other things in my life, like intellectually. So I had an internship in New York freshman year summer. I was at my best friend's house. I remember exactly where I was sitting on his couch in his apartment. And I got— because mind you, my friends were all graduated for 2 years already because I was a little bit delayed because of hockey. I'm sitting on his couch and my assistant coach from Colgate calls me. It's like, hey Ben, like, just want to check in, see like, you know, how the year went, like how your thoughts were with it. He's like, I'm curious what your thoughts are. I was like, well, I only played 8 games. Would love to get some feedback from you to understand, like, going into next year, how can I set myself up for success? To be clear, you play like 35 games in the season. So I was in the stands a lot. And he goes, do you want my honest opinion? In my mind, I'm like, as opposed to what? Like, yeah. He goes, well, my honest opinion for you is you're not big enough, you're not strong enough, your shot's not hard enough, you're not fast enough, and you have a bad attitude. So my advice would be to look long and hard in the mirror and decide what kind of person you want to be when you come back to school next year.

Sheesh.

Imagine, imagine a coach saying that to a freshman. I hung up the phone and called my mom. I was like, I want to quit hockey.

I'd fucking cry, bro.

I was like, why? I was like, why am I doing this? Like, I, I've dedicated my entire life, I sacrificed so much, and I'm just getting told that I'm ever the opposite of everything I'm supposed to be. Like, okay, well, I guess I have two options. It's either like I can bite my tongue and go back to school and just like work hard, or I could be like, fuck this, and join a frat. Ended up deciding to stay on the team, went back sophomore year, uh, ended up playing like 33 of 37 games or something like that. Was like a fourth line guy, so still didn't really play much. Fast forward to junior year, played every game, was still like a third or fourth line guy, but like earned my spot in the locker room. Like, as I was one of the upperclassmen, like, I kind of knew where I fit in this puzzle, per se. Uh, fast forward to senior year. At this point, I'd already gotten a job in M&A consulting after my junior year. Like, I was fully like, okay, I have one more year to just have fun with my best friends, live out my dream, and you know, the year's gonna end and time to move on. We started the— we started senior year 1-4, uh, so we were not doing well at this point. I'm a senior, like, established my place in the locker room, established my voice on the team. Like, people respected me. I didn't play— like, I was still a depth guy, but like the younger guys respected me. I went up to my coach after practice. It was like Monday morning practice after the weekend where we just lost 2 more games. We're 1-4 at the time. My best friend from college and my roommate was the best player on our team. He's actually now playing on the Toronto Maple Leafs in the NHL playoffs. I went up to my coach and I was like, Coach, respectfully, I have nothing to lose by saying this to you, but you should probably put me on a line with Bob. And he looked at me with 10 heads because I was always like the fourth line guy. This was a superstar player. I was like, no, you don't understand. I know him better than anyone else on the team. We lived together. We majored in the same thing, minored in the same thing. We were roommates on the road. Like, I know how this guy operates. Our team isn't doing well. Like, what do you have to lose? Oh, we're going to lose another game. Like, so, so what? Yeah, he looks at me with 10 heads like, let me think about it. I was like, all right, sounds good. Come back in the locker room next day. You see the colors of your jerseys hanging in your lockers. And I was on a line with him and I was like, wow, all right, well, here's my chance. We ended up playing that Friday, Saturday. I never spent another shift away from him for the rest of my senior year. I ended up tying him for the lead in points. Yeah, I ended up leading the team in points, tied with him my senior year. I signed with an agent, started talking to teams. So what started as like 8 games freshman year, now there was actually a potential opportunity to play professionally. We beat Brown in overtime in the first round of playoffs. 2 days later, the AD walked in the locker room and said, your season's over because of global pandemic. And I never played another game of hockey.

Damn. So what I love about that is putting your fucking, uh, risking it all, dude. Putting, putting just the balls on the table, man. Who the fuck cares? Like, you just gotta put it all on the line. And whether it's sports, whether it's, you know, content, whatever, like, just gotta— I don't know, I always used to say this line when I was talking about girls back in high school: you gotta risk it for the biscuit, you know?

Like, I mean, the way, the way that I look at it is like, you have one— you have two options, right? It's either you act as your authentic self or you act as your inauthentic self. If you act as your inauthentic self and it doesn't go well, you're going to regret not being yourself. If you act as yourself and it doesn't go well, you know that it wasn't the right person.

100%, dude. And like, that's, that's why I knew, like, he's, he's a dog. And like, I'll just be myself, be a dog. Like, I don't need to hide. Like, also, at a point, you know, in the business, we're like If they don't say okay, it's fine. Like, all right, there's more people out there. Uh, it's a good thing for dating too. It's like there's always more fish in the sea. There's more people. Uh, just because one person doesn't say yes to your business, there's— the internet's really big.

Sales 101 is you got to chase your nose to get to your yeses.

The internet's really big. Like, it's so big. I think people don't realize that. Like, some people might not like your content. Some people might call you cringe. Some people might think you're a jerk or stupid. Like, But for, for every person that like, that, that thinks that, there's a lot of people that like you and like your stuff. And like, posting content is just a way to find the people that, that are like you. You know, uh, Zach Pograb is an example, right? A lot of people think the whole obsession thing is fucking weird, right? A lot of people think fucking psycho, right?

To be clear, he is weird. He is weird. He is a psycho.

But he attracts the psychos like us who are like, yo, that's dope. Yeah, right, right. But like, who cares? Like, if you're just doing you, whether it's, you know, memes make millions, me screaming that, or reading funny books on the subway, or dressing up like a girl in fucking video, you know, goofy videos. Like, there are people who love that, right? You know, some people, I'm too unprofessional, you know, or I'm a brand risk or whatever. But then there are some brands that are like, we need to be a little riskier, right? Like, I'm sponsored in all these videos. It's like, how are you sponsored? It's like, dude, I just got, you know, $5,000 to film a video from an AI company where we were pretending their voice AI is, you know, a god telling me to quit my job in tech and do ayahuasca. Like, there are a lot of goofy people out there. There's a lot of people who, when you're yourself, your authentic self, you find those people that will like you for being you, right? When you're hiding, when you're hiding that self, it's like you're not going to find the real people who like you and I see a lot with people where, where, um, uh, you know, people who— what I love about Turning Pro too is it crosses brands or crosses niches. Like, you've had people on who are comedians or meme lords like me. You've had, uh, you know, very serious other stuff on, right? It crosses niches. Whereas like, when you just base your brand around one thing, like, let's say, like, I saw this a lot during the AI craze, the crypto craze, whatever, they just based around that, like, Well, then what? Nobody cares about you. And then when AI is no longer hot, right, who cares? When you're just you, you could find the people who like you.

And I also think the other thing, the other thing about the podcast, and this is actually something that, uh, JT and I were talking about as well, is that the origin story of the podcast was actually very selfish. Like, this, this for me was my outlet to talk to people that I'm curious about, uh, and I learn by conversation. I think my ADHD, it makes it hard sometimes for me to like sit and read a book for an extended period of time or to like listen to a podcast.

Internet kids, man.

Yeah, so like sitting and just like talking, it's like, okay, well, if I'm finding fulfillment and enjoy the enjoyment from this and the byproduct is, oh, by the way, there is someone else out there listening to this that is impacted in a positive way, like that's just the cherry on top for me. But that's the reason that I've had like legit comedian, like the MC of the Comedy Cellar, John Laster. I don't know if you know, like he was on the other the other week, and then you have tech founders, investors, creators. Like, it's really just, are you interesting? Are you someone that I want to have a conversation with? Well, if we're going to have a conversation, we might as well hit record and let everyone else listen to it also.

That's the only— the best reason to start— the only reason to start a podcast is to talk to interesting people. And like, yes, not like, dude, I have 1,000 subscribers.

Like, I'm not— this is not, uh, it's not paying my bills.

It's not about being the next Joe Rogan. It's just about talking to people that you like and like Honestly, as well, I tweeted this a while ago, like, it's kind of just an excuse to catch up with busy friends. Like, my friends are really busy, but it's like, hey, you want to just like hang out, film a podcast? Like, we're all founders, we're all hustling. Like, well, like, it's just a nice way.

And like, it's a nice way to hang out, and you can also potentially get benefit from it, right? Like, the episode will come out, we'll post— I'll post about it 100%, let people know that it happened, and it's like we got to catch up, and people might want to listen to the guy.

That's what's crazy about a podcast is is like it opens doors even if you don't have an audience. If you just start a podcast, it could be from, you don't need a studio. Like I started with just Zooms and I was able to get some pretty big people on with hundreds of thousands, even millions of followers because they, you know, it, I was, I was like, hey, you know, I'm gonna post a video after. I didn't even have that big of an audience, but everybody's hungry for content. Everybody wants more content of themselves. Like you don't need a giant distribution. Like I've seen people who barely even have a podcast, they've gotten like Naval Ravikant on or whoever just because like Hey, I'm gonna film it. This is video. I'm offering you something. Whereas when you ask somebody, this is towards young people, 18, 19, hey, can I pick your brain? Can I pick your brain? Why don't, dude, asking somebody to be on a podcast is, can I pick your brain? But here's the content of you that you could go post. Like it's that, okay, sure. Anybody who understands content for the most part, if they have some free time, sure, why not? Like, yeah.

You know that I've only had one guest out of 80 on this podcast that was like a cold message. I haven't actually messaged any. I haven't, dude. I need to start doing it.

It's fun. It's— I mean, I've gotten, you know, talked to some really, really cool people around it. It's like, I mean, it's just an excuse to just yap, you know, get a yap sesh. Like, you know, even 10 minutes ago, I was on the phone with somebody, you know, big investors. Like, he read my, you know, he read my book from a while ago, Memes Make Millions. And it's like, you talk to people, you could talk to people way above your pay grade. You know, for me, when I was— I started my podcast when I was living in New Jersey. Broke-ass kid talking to people that I should have never been able to talk to, right?

Yeah, it's a pretty magical thing where I guess this is now just like a masterclass for me or curiosity.

When you think about cold DMs, like, oh yeah, I made a whole guide, bro.

Is it Twitter?

You, you— I prefer— okay, so cold emails have never worked for me. Cold DMs, I've talked to billionaires, famous people. The Chainsmokers followed me because of my memes. We were just yapping. Like, dude, cold DMs are the way, uh, cold emails are, I think, are gone, uh, but because of AI especially, but cold DMs because somebody can immediately click your profile and see all of your thoughts in a Gmail. In Gmail, you think about it, it's like 2 degrees away from seeing your shit, but on Followers, you could see your mutual friends. You could see, uh, you could see all your thoughts, your ideas. Uh, I mean, on Instagram, they could see what you look like, which is, which is good for, uh, for, uh, for some people, uh, bad for others, I guess. But, you know, it's, uh, dude, it's the cold email, I think, is just, it's just dead.

But cold, cold DM can mean a couple different platforms.

Yeah, it can mean anything.

Like, what? No, but how do you, like, what? I guess if you're, if you're giving me advice, and hopefully people listening could also take something from this, I'm like, okay, like, I've done, uh, almost 100 episodes of the podcast. I haven't actually gone on offense and, like, DM'd people.

I would just find anybody that you look, that seems interesting, and just say, hey, want to come on my podcast? Like, keep it Simple, short. Like, I— like, not overthinking.

I say this, you don't think you need to say something unique?

No, no. I mean, it helps if you see—

like, if I message— and I mean, you said Naval, so I'm just gonna use that example. Yeah, I'm just like, hey Naval, wanna come on my podcast?

Next time you're in New York, uh, wanna come on your— my podcast? Who knows if he says yes. I mean, it's the same thing as sales, right? Like, of course, I, uh— the best sales tactic that I've ever taught my team is stop with your fucking 5 you know, sentencing. Just say, hey, check this out, you get, you get a chance to check out our meme software. Like, hey, you get a chance to check this out. Hey, whatever. Like, keep it short, keep it simple, keep it very anti-AI, very obvious that it's not ChatGPT or a VA in the Philippines doing it. And you stand out because you're human. That's been my number one is keep it as casual as possible when it comes to podcasts. You know, I, I just say, you know, it's harder when it's in person for New York, I think, because now that my podcast is in person as well, it's definitely been harder to coordinate. But, uh, but it's, hey, next time you're in New York, you know, or when are you in New York, let's, uh, you know, would love to kick it, you know. It's, it's like, I don't know, I think, uh, I think it's easier to get people on, you know, maybe.

Uh, I mean, I think the, the one point that I do agree with is that people love talking about themselves, dude. People love— so if you give them a platform to do that That was like the one insight I had. I'm not, I'm not, I don't have enough knowledge yet about like the impact of like your vanity metrics of like, do they care how many subscribers you get or views you get or listens you get or whatever? Uh, but I know for a fact that if you offer someone a platform to talk about themselves, more often than not, unless they're just too busy or they don't do that in general, they're gonna be open to the idea.

Yeah, yeah, 100%, man. Um, it's, uh, people like yapping about themselves. It's the same thing with like, uh, interviews for if you're a writer. Uh, you know, I wrote my book Memes Make Millions, and I was able to get all these interviews with people.

I want to talk about that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt you because I actually want to go back. We got so deep into conversation, I didn't even explain to anyone, or you didn't explain like what it is that you do. All right, uh, and how mysterious sources of income. Yeah, mysterious sources of income. But like the fact that you turn the concept of a meme into your life, I think like you need to just give a little bit of color and And as part of that, we can get into the fact that you wrote a book.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the book— so I'm the founder of memelord.com. I've been making silly content since I was a little kid. Been, been, you know, marketing like crazy since I was a kid, selling— when I was in high school, sold Grateful Dead stickers that I designed on Photoshop, made like $50 grand doing that, just getting stoned and, and making stickers. And in college, I started a music blog. So it's always been this combination of, of, of art and tech. In business and marketing. And, and, you know, 2 years ago, 3 years ago, I wrote a book called Memes Make Millions because I was honestly similar to you, just curious. I was curious, like, who are the weirdos behind these meme pages? You know, who are these people? And I was just curious.

There's a human somewhere.

There's a human. There are people. And it turns out they're mostly just normal people. There's some weirdos. But, you know, I wrote this book just interviewing them, finding out how they did it because I thought it'd be fun. Like, I want to make money and I want— I want to make a good living. Being funny. You know, that's always been my dream since I was a little kid. And so writing that book, Memes Make Millions, I did that and learned their tactics and then was able to grow my own stuff. And while writing that book, I realized there was a problem, which was there was no modern meme marketing software, right? So all these brands, all these meme pages, creators, whoever are making memes, but they're not— they're using old software, they're using crap. And so I learned how to build software myself and built it. And so I drank a lot of Red Bull. I'm Celsius and coffee deep right now. I drink a lot of caffeine. And, uh, I built my own software for it. Uh, so that's memelord.com. And so, uh, you know, we, we just, uh, raised a significant amount of money and, uh, people are starting to take memes seriously. And so there's, there's, uh, you know, anything in life, if you take it seriously, you know, something, something my dad said, which I think is perfect for turning pro, is like, as long as you, uh, take it seriously, the, the best at anything can make money, right? Like the top, the best poet Think about like some of the best poets, right? They make millions, right? The best author, J.K. Rowling or whoever it might be, right? They make billions, you know, best at anything. If you take it fucking serious, like they do, they do well. And so, um, yeah, I, uh, I take my silliness very seriously and, uh, yeah, that's, that's a meme lord way.

Was there, what was the moment in your life? I honestly, I, I think this is probably one of the turning pro moments for you, at least from my perspective. What was the moment in your life when you're like, wait, this concept of like memes and comedy can become like a real viable financial like vehicle?

Yeah. So I was ghostwriting for founders for a while, and when ChatGPT was coming out and it was just the start of that, people started using a lot of boring shit. And so more and more to stand out, people were asking me for funny stuff. And so like, I remember the first time I got paid like $800 just for making like 10 memes and You know, it's just a small amount, right? It was whatever. And then, you know, another company paid me to make like a silly ad for like one of their billboards. It was just like something stupid, something goofy. And then, you know, these big accounts started paying me to make memes for them. And then I started running brand accounts and getting paid, you know, $5,000, $10,000 a month just for running brand accounts and being silly because that's what got them attention. And on the internet, attention's, you know, everything. And so that's when it started, started clicking that there's a lot of money in you know, in this and it could be a viable thing. And really, as I was building the software and growing that, like, now the software pays my rent and much more, right? And it's like, you know, there's a lot of money being silly, man. I think, and writing this book, you know, like fucking Seinfeld and Larry David, they're both billionaires, you know, like, you know, fucking, there's, there's a lot of money in being a goofball.

So what, I mean, what was that process like writing a book?

It was fun. It was, it's very tiring. It was a sprint for sure. I think it was, it was about 5, 6 months, 7 months of research and then compiling the interviews and writing essays. And then I would say like 4 weeks of editing. My wife and I, we flew to, flew to England and Paris and I just, I just locked the fuck in. She had a terrible time because I was locked in the whole time.

Why did you end up there?

She worked at Burberry at the time. And so like we got a free trip to England and I was like, oh, like let's just go to Paris too. It's like so close, dude. Europe's crazy. Like everything's just a train ride away in Europe. And so like, we're like, ah, like might as well. And, uh, I needed to get the book done. So we just like, I just sat and just wrote. Uh, and writing in Paris is something special. Always like, I mean, writing in Paris is like fucking cool. Um, but, uh, yeah, it was, it was fun.

So I'm gonna tell you my book idea and you could tell me that I'm crazy. I wanna take 100 episodes of this podcast and basically synthesize that into like the turning pro moments, if you will, of like I don't think that's crazy.

I think that's a great idea. I mean, that's literally what Steven Pressfield's book is sort of about. And he sold, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. Yeah.

But people knew who Steven Pressfield was. It was more, it's more of, uh, the same notion that we talked about of like the digital diary of like, I love it.

I, it's very similar. I had an idea around, uh, uh, basically like, uh, showing like the compound of like different people's careers and all like the failures. You know, cause like I saw, uh, I was working in Ben's room earlier and, uh, Tools of Titans, right? It's a similar idea, but it's deeper and it shows the failures and it shows the moment they decided to go pro. Uh, I think it's a cool idea. Just dude, I think it's a great idea. Just put it right here. Turning Pro. I'd, I'll preorder a copy.

Do you think, you think that it's worth doing that when you have no distribution? That's the whole thing.

What do you mean? You have some distribution and then you build it, dude. And it's book one, you know? I think, uh, I don't know. I think it's always a good idea, you know. It's all— I mean, it's a matter of time as well. It's like, you know, you run a software company, uh, it's a little higher margin business than books.

Yeah, totally.

Just a little bit. Yeah. So I, I mean, I have another couple books in the works, but like, I gotta focus on the software because that's where the moolah is.

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Like, I think, uh, I don't remember. I'm not going to say the numbers because it was— I think in the deck it was something like, I make X amount of dollars per year, and now I'm like raising money because I think it's worth a lot more. So I'm just curious, like, so I guess for people listening, just to like bring this full circle, Jason gets paid a shitload of money to make memes and troll people on the internet, and it has turned into like a real viable marketing tactic for a lot of big businesses. And so now it was like kind of a joke. We'll probably always stay a joke because that's what makes it like beautiful, but a joke that could potentially be worth billions of dollars one day. So what does that look like in practice?

Make a million bucks a year this year across the software, across my show, across the agency and my newsletter. And so it's this whole empire where somebody signs up to my newsletter, they get hit with the software. Somebody signs up and, you know, subscribes to our show, they see our software. Somebody signs up for the software, they could even watch the show in there. Somebody signs up for the software, the API sends them to the newsletter, right? It's all just one fucking funnel, dude. And so I built this Memelord empire, you know, similar to Rome. It wasn't built overnight. This has been 4 years of nonstop grinding and 15 years before that of just making shit and figuring stuff out. We'll see how it goes. But, you know, right now it's focused on building software, growing this thing to like be all over the place and also just like have fun doing it, man. Like, I hope that like, can can, uh, inspire. Like, if there's any, like, goofy people out there watching, right, comedians, whoever, like, you have to treat your comedy like, like deadly serious, you know, fucking deadly serious. Like, treat it like Kobe, you know. You think about Seinfeld out here, like, fucking, you know, taking, uh, writing down his reps every single day. It's, uh, shit's not easy. Like, even, even filming funny viral stunts and all that stuff, like, it's just a matter of reps, you know. It's a matter of reps and intensity over time.

Yeah, what, um, in your eyes— I mean, I'm not as deep as you in this world of like memes, but what would you say is like the unique insight that you had with what you're building versus what's out there? Like, what do you find is lacking in the market?

Uh, so the number one feature that, that people love about us is we are constantly adding new memes all the time. And so we, we figured out a way to basically use AI to track trending memes, so ones that are getting posted a lot. So, uh, basically there's figured out, you know, kind of a way to find overlaps and see what people are posting across the internet and scraping. And so that's the number one thing people love is what I call meme alerts. And so literally all throughout the day, I'm getting text messages before anybody else. So I don't have to scroll. I just get a text message with my meme. And, you know, right here, Donald Trump— What do you mean with my meme? Donald Trump and Larry Fink in Saudi, right? So here's a template that I literally just got texted. And now it's like, oh, let me just put this to my niche. It's like, oh, me and Elon, right? Or whatever, you know? So like, you know, here's one earlier and I went viral, right?

I saw that one.

Yeah. You know, I sent this to David who I was telling you about earlier. It's like, no memes, memes don't make millions. They make billions, right? It's like I get texted all these throughout the day. And so like I get them before everybody else. And so that's how I'm first. So I built this for myself really to like hack into it.

That is so fucking baller.

It's pretty fun. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty fun to be early on it.

What, um, what would you say? What's a moment where like maybe there was a meme that went viral? Like, I'm trying to figure out how to articulate this. What was like the stupidest meme that actually became like the most impactful? Like one where you're like, this makes no sense, but actually drove— like, so you get what I'm trying to say.

I could say this now. So I, uh, saw this— somebody post the ramp, you know, the Ramp logo.

Yeah.

And it's a ramp. So this is a B2B SaaS company and somebody edited it into a penis. And so I tweeted that and I ended up with a very large deal with their competitor because of that.

No way.

Yeah. Yeah.

What was like the basis for— was the brand deal just like, well, you're anti them because of—

I was, I was goofing around making fun of it. And then one of their, the competitors you know, BD people follows me. And so I DM him like, hey, you guys want this for Brex? He's like, oh fuck, I said it. But hey, you guys want— yeah, I was like, hey, you guys want this?

I can clip it. But also like most people know at this point who Ramp's biggest competitor is.

Yeah. I was like, hey, you guys want this for your company? I was like, I don't really want— I was like, hey, you guys want this for your company? He's like, uh, he's like, you want to turn our logo into a penis? I was like, yeah, for a price, of course. And then I sent him a case study on Ramp. Of how they grew that I had already written. I wrote it like just for SEO reasons a few weeks before, and then—

wait, did you do this with Ramp or you just did it to try?

I just wrote it. No, no, I wasn't trolling them with the case study. I think the case study was good.

Was, was the case study just the awareness from the moment that happened? Not be—

no, no, it's before that. It's before that. So I wrote a case study about how Ramp used memes to grow, uh, really just— I wrote it for, uh, for a friend's blog, uh, because he has a giant audience and It led to some signups and, and then I made the penis logo of the ramp after that. Like, I, I don't mind Ramp. I don't really give a shit.

They, they crush it.

Who cares? You know, they're, they're whatever. And so I just sent it to their competitor and was like, hey, you guys should start posting memes. And I end up with a, you know, solid, solid deal. Solid, solid big deal. That's from a penis meme. Yeah.

What, what would you say are— what's the number one thing that most brands get wrong about trying to be funny online?

Oh, I got this. So number one thing most brands get wrong is they try to put themselves everywhere inside of it. Nobody cares about your fucking brand. You're not Apple, okay? People care about the problems that they feel. So think about if you are, say you're Shopify, right? Shopify is big, but say you're a little startup and you're working for, you know, you make products for founders, right? Nobody knows your brand's name yet, but they do know the problems of a founder and your niche, right? And so make memes about the people that you are, your customers, and then plug your product underneath. Eventually you get so big, like a Ramp, right? Or a Shopify where you can make memes about your brand. But at first nobody gives a shit, dude. All these founders, like they're deep in it. They think because they care, everybody knows about it and that's the way to get the word out. It's like you want to just get as viral as possible with your niche and your, your people, your founders, your customers. Whatever it might be, and then you just, you hit them with it, right? Once, once people care. Um, I see this again and again where people just, they want— there's, there's— you think about it, right? So say you're, um, say, say Platter, right? Uh, it's for Shopify.

Yeah, by the way, I'm, uh, Twitter and I are not friends. All right, and so no, no, no, I'm saying that to preface that where I think I'm gonna try the meme strategy for like one month.

Just make memes about Shopify, don't make them about Platter. And then underneath, what about the pro—

what about memes about the problems that my customers—

fine, fine, feel? Yeah, yeah, any, any— make memes about the problems that Shopify owners feel, right? Shopify store—

I already have my first one.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, it's very easy to think of shit, right? And so then underneath it, because there's a lot more people that know about Shopify than Platter, right?

Of course.

Exactly. For me, there's a lot more people that are marketers than know about Memelord. .com, right? There's a lot more people that are CFOs than know about Ramp. Well, you know, whatever, you get the point. And so making memes about the problem, uh, lets you hit a higher TAM, right? And then you introduce them to your solution, right? Which is your company. So, um, I see that again and again where, where brands try to like push themselves so much into it when they're like, dude, nobody knows about you guys yet. Focus on the problem, focus on the customers and what they're feeling. Uh, if you're close with your customers, uh, and if, if you get their, their, their issues, it's very easy to make memes about it. Yeah, very easy to like goof around about it.

So I think, uh, something I'm curious to ask you about, uh, which is in line with just culture in general with your business, because I— you're building like, it's a very serious software company, but it's also like a very playful vibe. What is your interview process for hiring?

I've never, I've never interviewed.

Uh, how do you think about hiring, I guess, is a better question.

I, my hiring pipeline is extremely mysterious. So everybody who I hire finds me because of my memes, like dead serious. My Instagram guy, he found me because I did a collab on my friend's fridge meme page. And I found this guy. Another guy, he's in Taiwan and found him because of my memes. Another one, the same thing. My new engineer, my founding engineer, I tweeted, uh, I tweeted, I'm hiring an engineer who could talk to women. Like, that's my only qualification. I had 7 Calendly appointments within an hour. It was insane, dude. Like, I've never used LinkedIn Recruiting. I'm never paying a recruiter ever in my life. Like, I just tweet something funny and then like, hey guys, by the way, I'm hiring. Or like, people just DM me because like they want to make memes for a living or they want to be in this kind of business and like Um, it's, it's, uh, I mean, there may come a time where that's a problem where I don't have a, a formalized hiring process, uh, but right now when, when early startups are all about building cults—

but why though? Like, I think you're— because you have a preconceived notion of what, what big businesses do. Yeah, but it's like you're paving the way for a new way of operating. So like, who's to say that— so what, all because you start to get big you're going to succumb to like what big companies do?

No, I just think like there comes a time where where maybe I just need to have a more formalized product. I don't know, maybe, maybe you're right. Maybe, maybe there never is that time. But like, important thing where small companies, whatever, you know, you want people who are in on your cult, like diversified skill sets, but like same mindset, right? Like I have an engineer, I have a meme lord. They both just love being unhinged and making money and being goofballs on the internet. Different skill sets, same.

You have a meme lord?

Many meme lords. I have so many meme lords on my team.

Full, full-time?

Oh yeah.

And all they do is what, make and curate memes all day?

Oh yeah, many, many.

Wow, you are, you are building—

I've got a mafia, bro. Meme lord mafia. Yeah, I've got, I've got meme lords on a payroll like crazy, dude.

This is so— it's just like hard, it's hard to wrap my head around, but like I'm so here for it.

Yeah, it's pretty fun, man. It's a good time. Um, the, the Memelord Empire is growing. Um, and, uh, yeah, I hope people, people watching this, uh, you can make money doing whatever, uh, if you, if you find your people, you know. Uh, the internet's really big. Um, and, uh, whatever you do, like, there's enough people out there who will fuck with it, you know.

Jason, I appreciate you coming on the podcast today, dude.

Thank you, man.

Just look at the camera there and let everyone know where they can find you and where you want them to buy your memes.

You can find me at memelord.com and sign up. Our software is, you know, there's a free trial. Make some dank memes, share them, tag me at @iamjasonlevin everywhere, and I'll make sure to like them and probably insult you. That was great. Wow. Aah!