You Don't Need More Marketing, You Need More Visibility – Leverage LinkedIn to Get It with Ben Buaron

Early-stage founders think that slow growth means that they need more funnels, more content, more ads. But what they tend to forget is that people don't buy from perfect branding. They buy from people they trust. So the argument is you don't need, you don't need more marketing, you need more visibility. Our guest today has helped dozens of founders to stop hiding behind logos and start showing up where real trust is built on LinkedIn. Today we are unpacking why visibility beats marketing and how to get, uh, how to make LinkedIn work for yourself, even if you're just getting started. Hey, what's going on everyone? I'm Mike Sirius and this is Mastering Tech Growth. Every week we chat with industry leaders to bring you no-fluff tips on how to grow. If you enjoy the show, please do me a favor, hit that subscribe button and do send me your biggest growth questions at masteringtechgrowth.com. I'd love to know what you're working on and what's getting in your way. Today I'm joined by Ben Boron, founder of Windmill Growth. They help early-stage founder, uh, early-stage startups turn, turn their LinkedIn into their number one growth channel. No hacks, no influencer playbooks, just real sustainable visibility that brings in leads, builds credibility, and opens doors. He's been a founder himself, bootstrapped his business in public, and now teaches others how to build trust by showing up consistently online. Ben, excited to have you.

Thank you very much for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

Well, Ben, we'd love to kick off the show with this question. When I say masteringtechgrowth.com, what comes to mind?

I think it's more about like no fluff thing. That's what I think about. I think they are very direct, very like, let's do it the way that we should do it without going around stuff and not wasting time on things that aren't actually working. And that's how I see growth. That's how I see growth in my company. That's how I see growth in other companies. And I think there is like a specific specific way, uh, there are specific ways that people are not talking about enough, um, or like gatekeeping or trying to keep it closed. Um, but there is a way to grow companies without spending tons of money, without spending tons of money of media buying, as you said. So that's, that's what comes up.

Okay, I actually love you calling out the no-fluff situation. I do myself believe that there's a lot of content online on, on how to actually do the growth, but A lot of really, you know, not tactical in the way, or it sort of leaves you alone to extract tactical information from content you're given. And if you don't know how to really apply it, it just becomes sort of like, you know, information you know, but it doesn't really yield, you know, good results. So I love you calling that one out. So you guys been basically helping people to just go on LinkedIn and make LinkedIn their number one channel for growth, and this is happening organically, right? That there's no ads buying.

No, our focus is mostly content, really good content with a lot of strategy behind it and a lot of engagement strategy behind it. Because by the end of the day, what we do is we help, as you said, we help founders build their go-to-market channel, their growth channel on LinkedIn to be their number one channel. And we believe that founder-led marketing is the next big thing. Up to 2020, in the next 5 years, okay? 2025 up to 2030 at least. We're talking about, we think that is the biggest thing and the biggest like changing factor in founders. So we help founders become the face of their startup, the face of their companies, and help them generate more, as you said, as you mentioned, generate more revenue, brand awareness, top of funnel, and help them basically have a better presence of themself and their company online. That's what we feel.

Okay. So is this a new phenomenon? Like when I think about content creation in general, I mean, there were always where people who were quite big online and, you know, we call them influencers, right? Because they have a lot of eyes on them so they can influence opinions. But now we're saying a founder-led content. So effectively we're saying if you have a startup, and you're a founder of that startup, you want to position yourself to be a thought leader. Is that like a right saying to sort of share a content with how your business solves a problem and then being seen as a credible person to sort of solve that problem and that will help your business grow? Is that like good assessment?

Exactly. Exactly. The way we see it is just a numbers game, right? So if I'm not posting on LinkedIn, I'm not exposing myself, I'm not exposing my company, and I'm not letting other people know what I'm doing, right? What I'm focusing at, what I'm struggling with, what's the thing that I'm succeeding with, what I'm really good at, what my clients are doing really good. So if I'm not posting all of it, I'm missing, let's say I generated 1.5 million views on my organic content on LinkedIn in 2024. Okay, 1.5 million. I have clients generated 30 million views on LinkedIn in 2024. Before. So like we're talking about numbers of relevant people, hyper-focused relevant people that is just exposed to your content and they might change the whole trajectory of your business, right? I got inbound from LinkedIn that generated me $12K in MRR in a single month just because I was putting myself out there. I was putting my content out there. I was putting case studies. I was putting everything that my company is going through and building in public. It's really helped me grow my business. So whenever we're talking about funnel-led marketing, think about it as a numbers game is is there is more likelihood of someone to reach out to you or refer you someone or being able to, uh, uh, uh, uh, work with you if he knows you, if he trusts you, if he saw you anywhere online. And we're not reinventing any game here, right? The ads are on the same concept as top of funnel, building top of funnel, where we're talking about the organic traditional ads, uh, uh, billboards. It's the same thing. You're putting your story out there, more of your company story out there, but you putting the story out there. Uh, if we're talking about Meta ads or, or Twitter, or we're doing the same thing, we have the rule, the marketing rule of 7. You need to be touched in 7 points before someone decides to buy. So we're trying to increase the likelihood of someone buying from you by pushing the founder's face out there because the most unique way to do it in 2025.

Okay. And as well, I would say it's a most cost-effective way as well because you're not really burning any cash. It just becomes— well, okay, well, let me change that. You do burn some cash, especially if you're, you know, hiring a company to do that for you. But compared to an ads, it's a lot more cost-effective way, isn't it?

Yeah. So think about it. I'll just— I'll give one time the numbers that, uh, uh, let's say a couple of examples from my clients. Okay. For example, and then we can talk about in general, how do we compare to ads? So two of my clients, for example, let's go with one of my clients. He spent $9K for two months with us and he generated $180K. So in this two-month period based on inbounds, and again, I'm not trying to go with our success and emphasize. I'm trying to say you don't have to put a lot of money as much as you need to put it on ads and you don't need to put any money. You can start by your own. You can start by your own. Exactly. Yeah. You can try by yourself. Completely solely at home trying. And especially this AI area that like, it's really easy to start understand exactly your tone of voice and talk with AI and like do brainstorming. Obviously it's not good enough yet. And I don't think AI is good enough yet to create content completely in a full strategy for the founders. And there is a lot of companies that are trying to do it and eventually we will get there. I kind of afraid of this day, not from my company perspective, more from like personal perspective, like a social media perspective. I prefer to talk with people and not to talk only with AI. So like I'm kind of still thinking about how the way it's going to be there. But by the end of the day, to start posting on LinkedIn, you don't need anything but 10 minutes. That's the only thing you need, right? You can use a lot of AI profile optimizer tools that are online. You can use a lot of like things that are going really well in other platform. You can repurpose content, you can do whatever you want. You just need to spend some time and give and increase the, priority of it in your, in your day, let's say. Just put some time in it.

Okay, so, so you mentioned $9K, uh, spending, which you guys making $180K. I mean, that, that's a great return on investment as well. You mentioned you can start for free, which is absolutely true. I mean, I don't, I, I don't pay anyone. I use couple of tools to, to get me started, but effectively you can definitely go ahead and share content and your point of, point of view. And I want to ask this, I mean, the founder-led content, um, it does feel to be, as you mentioned, what works right now, like 2025, maybe it was on the table back a year. Is this somehow related to the, you know, the Gen Z generation and how they build trust and how they perceive information? Or is that just something which just appeared with social media and AI or something like that? Like what's driving that that actually works?

That's a great question. I think there is a combination of everything you mentioned. I think there is a combination of everything you mentioned and more. Gen Z is definitely supporting it. We're seeing a lot of companies on Twitter, on LinkedIn that goes exponentially and like goes vertical the moment the founder has distribution, right? We can, I don't wanna like name drop some companies, but by short scrolling of 10 minutes on LinkedIn or 10 minutes on Twitter, you can know exactly what company has distribution and what company can raise $20 million in a week because of their distribution. So like in this area of AI, this era of AI, that let's be honest, nothing is defensible, right?

Okay.

People can build like people, I not like people can build things that took 5 years, can build in like 6 months now with a really good team that is really trained and know how to elevate and use AI. So things can be replicated really easily. The things that are not replicated very easily in my thesis is my branding because that's my name and my distribution, right? And I'm saying mine and everyone should speak by his own. But whenever you have a distribution, we have— wherever you have the ability to reach to X amount of people, and as long as this X is bigger than the average person, your likelihood to succeed is better. From there, it's really depending on your product, on your service, on what you're doing. But if you have the starting point of— think about it, you have an audience of like 25,000 people that you just send them a newsletter, right?

Yeah.

From this 25 1,000 people, if you wanna get 1,000 clients, it's possible if you'll do it over time, but you have the distribution challenge. It'll be easier for you to get to 1,000 instead of someone who just starts by his own, you understand? So numbers game again, and it goes into the distribution channel that we are helping our founders build, and everyone should build by his own, to his own LinkedIn channel and his own company.

That's how it is again. Okay, so here's a question on a more tactical way. What's the fastest way to figure out what actually resonates with your audience when, when, when you're just getting started. And that really comes from my own perspective as well. So, uh, you know, I share as much as I can. I don't think I have a good consistency, but at the same time, I don't really know, uh, you know, like exactly what to share. So I'm just sort of like, you know, uh, spraying and praying type of situation. And I'm just trying to figure out what actually sticks, right?

That's the most common mistake. No, the most common mistake is not posting at all. But the second mistake is spraying and praying.

Okay, so I'm doing the most common second mistake there. So, so tell me, how can I then— is it niche down, or is it more like filter down to what works? Is this— I'm just looking at impressions as signals or comments, or is it more something that, you know, like, it's not about LinkedIn, it's more about like, um, understanding really the space you want to attack or something like that?

Exactly. So the way You should treat it as a traditional marketing, right? You should treat it as like funnel. You should understand exactly your funnel. What's your top of funnel of your content? What's your middle funnel of the content? What's the bottom funnel of your content, right? You should create this funnel as your LinkedIn content system, right? So for myself, the top funnel can be like thought leadership and, and, and, and brand awareness posts and like let people bring, connect people to my story and like personal stories and things that will make, bring, grow my audience. Make people know about it. We're doing a lot of events, for example, so sharing about this event is my top of funnel, right? Getting to people— I just want as much as people possible, uh, uh, to know about Windmill, to know the name Windmill Growth. I just— okay, I just, I just read a tweet, uh, from a well-known, uh, uh, founder, uh, who is like a Gen Z founder, very, uh, controversial, and he said, I prefer to have 1 billion people say this guy built it than have $1 billion. Because of the power of 1 billion people says this person built this company. You understand what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So you should treat it as a funnel and you should build a strategy behind it. I wouldn't say that spraying and praying is a good method. It's a really good method at the beginning. Okay, I would start with spraying and praying in the first 2-3 months. I will start spraying and praying and then from there I will take it and summarize everything, understand the data behind it. I'm a software engineer, so that's our thing in the company. We're really back, We're really like leaning into the data. So understanding the data, see what's worked, what generated for me leads, what didn't, what generated the most amount of followers, when did I grow up the most, what was the post that led to the most effect to my business? And then from there I would build a funnel with content pillars. We have a full brand book that we're doing for each one of our clients to actually help him build his brand, right? And this brand, whenever it's designed correctly, you can even use it to generate content with AI. But the most important thing is to understand what you're going to speak about, how you're going to speak about it in your funnel, top, middle, bottom, and then down as much as possible. And then eventually you will get more and more traction from the right people. Because if you have 70K followers, and there's a lot of cases like this on LinkedIn, 70K followers from irrelevant people that are like barely engaging, barely active on LinkedIn, or just like randomly commenting weird comments, it doesn't worth anything.

Okay.

So you have like, sorry, go ahead.

So it does go as well about, you know, the quality of followers and people in your network you have and the alignment to the content you wanna share. If you're gonna share something as, you know, baking recipes and you have AI engineers in your network, I mean, you're gonna get no engagement whatsoever.

Exactly. You should treat it also as like as a traditional marketing, as I said, and an influencer marketing as well. Like you're your influencer marketer, right? As a founder, that's the way I see it. You're like the face of your company. So let's think about a woman in her 30s who is more about fashion and wellness and appearance, and that's her content. And she has 250 thousand followers on TikTok, right? NVIDIA, the cheap, cheap, the AI chip company, will reach out to her and say, let's make an influencer marketing deal. They'll probably get nothing. It won't be relevant because her audience is not interested in seeing this type of content.

Yeah.

So you really need to understand how do you target your audience. And there is a lot of tools and a lot of ways to do it properly. But like, how do you target your audience and keep sub-niching as much as possible?

Okay. So effectively we're saying that the LinkedIn itself is a funnel, right? So it's not that—

That's how I see it, yeah.

Okay, so it sits at the top of the funnel, but the whole funnel is getting realized by LinkedIn. So you're sharing a content, right? So that's your top of the funnel. So you're just getting impressions, people are seeing. Whatever is your middle is something like going into DMs of people who commented with your posts. So you're sort of pulling them down and then potentially you pop them out into like a website or a meeting call and that's sort of like your bottom of the funnel where you just consider it as a—

When I'm saying building the funnel, it's even like you're creating content filler for each one of the sections. So like you're creating content filler for the top, for the middle, and for the bottom of the funnel. Okay? So like the top will be more brand awareness, personal stories. Either one can be lead magnets and, sort of like case studies. And, and the, the bottom one should be testimonials and, and, and things that you do, like how I helped company X do Y. These things will make people like take the leap and eventually reach out to you or do an inbound through your website.

Okay, that's excellent. I love that. So you make— so you have a, a, a post type, let's call it like this, which targets the different areas of your funnel. Is there any, um formula of how much of which type of post you're making?

We are focusing around 50% top of funnel, 25, 25 middle to bottom. That's why. You can do 40, 40, 20, 30, 30, but I would focus on top of funnel.

Okay. So 50, 50.

If you're trying to do too much bottom of funnel, if you're trying to sell too much aggressively, it just doesn't work.

People get tired out of it. Yeah. I've seen this post. Someone had like a 5 to 1, somewhere I've seen, I think it was Justin Welsh. He's quite big with LinkedIn. I think he's formalized something like 5 to 1, like 5 posts to 1 salesy or asky type of post. I mean, everybody I guess has their own flavor, right? So other question, Ben, is, so when I post and I assume everybody has the same situation, especially if you're using AI. You get into this, you know, flavor of post which doesn't really feel real, if that makes sense. You know, it doesn't feel like—

feels fluff.

Yeah, like it's not human written, and you can see this miles away, right? And I've seen people countering this now by actually writing stuff like by hand on paper and taking a picture.

There is a lot of trends right now.

Yeah. So it's like, like, what's your take? Is like, when you guys help to produce content, it's like, you know, like, how do you make sure that, you know, it feels real and, and sort of like authentic to the person, uh, you're trying to, you know, help promote?

So it really leans into the story itself. That's, that's my, my focus of it. It's not even the, the writing itself, it's the story, right? So like, if I will go to ChatGPT and tell him create for me a full personal branding marketing strategy or like a full content calendar for the next months.

Yeah.

No matter what would be written there, 90% will feel AI. Okay.

Yeah.

So what I'm emphasizing is how much important, how important the strategy is. The strategy behind the post itself, the strategy behind the profile. Okay. So I'll go to ChatGPT right now and I'll tell them like, listen, that's my company. That's what I'm trying to achieve. That's my focus.

Yep.

Create me a content calendar. Most of the content calendars that I will get there are fluff, are things that I can, uh, I can find on Google, I can find like a simple search, I can find like ChatGPT, right? It will be like, your, your company is related to marketing, so we will talk about the difference between, um, and let's, let's take an example, okay? Let's take an example and I'll show you on live how can I make it more interesting and more relevant. Um, so let's say we're talking about the difference between cold outreach without posting into cold outreach with posting. Okay, I wanna show, I wanna emphasize how cold outreach results are getting better whenever you have really good content behind it. Okay, on LinkedIn specifically. So I can start the post in saying, I can start a post in a very like regular logical way of this is how you can increase your conversion rate on your cold outbound by doing these 3 simple steps. I can do it, right? I can do it. It will feel a bit of AI. I can search on Google. I can search on ChatGPT. But if I'm writing something that is very, like, especially hook, I think the hook is the most important piece of it. But like, if I'm starting with something who is super personal from my experience, from the thing that people cannot read on Google, cannot read on ChatGPT, that's the game-changing piece of it. If I will start with, I generated $85,000 in June just from making really good content and combining outreach. That's how I did it.

Mm-hmm.

It make people more interested, make people more involved in it. You can agree or disagree with it.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, whenever you're using your story and the thing that you cannot read online, that's the way when you are like not AI anymore, because AI cannot have all the context. So what we do, we focus heavily on the strategy. We focus heavily on the story. We focus heavily on the person itself. And not on the output of the content. The output of the content can be rewritten by AI. Like, there's a lot of time that I'm taking my content and just like sending it to ChatGPT after I wrote it, and I said like improve, because English also is not my first language. So, uh, I'm going to AI and to ChatGPT, and I'm like improve clarity and check grammar. I see that it fits my tone of voice, and I'm shipping it. Yeah, but I wrote the first version of it. I gave my story, I gave my tone, I gave the thing behind the scenes that you cannot find on Google, on ChatGPT, on Claude, because it's only with me. It's only mine, right? Yeah. So that's the, that's the biggest difference in my opinion. Okay.

I love that. So that effectively means you can't really bullshit your way around that. Like you actually need to talk from experience. So if we, and I feel like I've, I've seen that a lot. I've seen where people, effectively reusing other people's stories to drive as their own posts. Or their own stories, right? So we effectively saying if it's not your story, it doesn't land that well. Like you actually, you have to—

It lands as long as you give from your own inputs and you give from your own experience and knowledge. Like I can elevate other person's story. I can elevate another great influencer or great founder or great trend that is going through the wild, but I have to give and I have to emphasize my side of it. I have to emphasize my thing. Of it. Because if people want to read, they want to read what you're saying, not in general. I'm not a news page. I'm not a Google, uh, I'm not a Google Marketing 101, uh, lesson. You know, I'm a founder and I'm sharing my company and I'm sharing my story.

So they want your point of view on things and they want your experience. Effectively, you're making the walk, so now you're making the talk, and that is effectively your story.

Yeah.

Okay.

I love that. You can use other people trends. You can use other people ideas, other people opinion. You can talk about trends. Like I posted a post that went viral that I spoke about some Samsung versus Apple, like sort of not beef, but like something that happened a few months ago when a lot of big influencers on TikTok tried to like compare between Apple and Samsung and they realized that Samsung is really good. Although they were like Apple advocates.

Yeah.

So it was like a beef, TikTok beef between a couple of influencers, like in a nice way and respectful way, of course. So I spoke about it and I gave my take on the marketing side of it. So it was for a lot of people. People would just say, yeah, there is a beef on TikTok. It probably won't matter and won't be interesting for anyone. But I gave my expertise and my knowledge about it.

So what were you saying then, Ben, that the point of view, which is yours, whatever that is, is basically critical to actually building a personal brand. You can't be, uh, polite— well, not polite, you can't be political basically, right? You can't be in a no man's land.

Like, you, like, you have to have a point of view, otherwise you're not interesting.

Yeah, just become like—

yeah, you have to have your— you have to be controversial. You have to have your own points. You have to earn your own thoughts. That's the only way to do it. Like my favorite, my most viral post was about that. I hired and fired someone in 2 weeks. That was like my— I hired someone and fired him in 2 weeks later. It was my first business hire and I fired him because he was a mis-company culture fit.

Okay.

Like we just didn't— it wasn't working good and that's fine. and I got attacked by millions of people on, on the comments. But that's fine. That's, that's what— that's who am I, that's what I'm doing, that's what I'm believing in. Um, you got to be, you got to be controversial, you've got to share your story, you gotta— you don't— you cannot— you cannot afraid, uh, uh, to like sharing your story. You cannot afraid sharing your opinion. If you're doing it, you're just like going into no man's land, exactly as you say, and you will be stagnant. You will never grow.

Yeah, is this why polit— you know, political people and speeches are so boring? Because they, you know, they're afraid of everything, to say wrong things, and it's just always like, like they say something, you listen and go like, like, if, if you try to dig into their speeches, nothing is getting said.

It's just, it's just, it's like, yeah, yeah, that's marketing. Yeah, for sure. I think that's, that's, that's what makes the difference. That's what cut through the noise. Okay, because there's a lot of noise in the last few months. We're going through a lot of, uh, like LinkedIn, LinkedIn algorithm is changing, okay? And it's changing because of the fact the demand and supplies are changing dramatically, like drastically, okay? So the demand of content is increasing, but the supply is, is increasing in a higher pace. So more people want to start posting on LinkedIn, more people want to be thought leader, and more people want to have this distribution channel. So that's why the algorithm is changing right now. It's demand and supply, it's a basic economy, uh, um, thing. So whenever we have more people posting, we have more noise, and then it's harder to cut through the noise. That's why I always tell people, start posting yesterday, don't wait for tomorrow, because it will be easier for you. It's always easier to get the next follower, right? So the next follower is always easier than the previous one because because you already have your audience. So try to get as much followers, as much distribution, and as much people listening and engaging with your content, so you'll be able to just grow your company.

Okay, let's talk a little bit about this because I noticed that as well. I really believe that I got some type of shadow ban or something like that because my impressions just went from thousands into hundreds, basically like 10x down. And, you know, I did some Google and I've seen that everyone is sort of suffering from this. And the best explanation I found, Ben, is that LinkedIn is changing the algorithm and they sort of promoting only the best content producers and everything else is just basically being kept for ads because they need to make money. I don't know what's your point of view on like the algo changing. You're saying that Everybody wants to post the content, so supply is big, but LinkedIn doesn't care about everyone. They care about the best. So they're promoting the best, and as a result, everybody else is getting less impressions.

I'm not agreeing with it. I think there is a lot of room to grow on LinkedIn. The algorithm is changing, and there will be times that the algorithm will favor you against others, and it's like ups and downs. It's part of the game, and it's totally normal. That's how social media works. Works, um, in general. So like, I think the most important piece is staying consistent.

Okay.

And keep, keep showing up. So it's not only about, uh, uh, data and metrics, it's keep posting and listening to your audience and trying to understand. Um, and like, I don't think they're saving to the top performers, but definitely it's easier for top, uh, uh, influencers and founders, the right economy, to, to grow more and more, but there is a lot of room to grow there. I don't think it's only the top performers. So the algorithm is changing, but if you're cutting through the noise, you're cutting through the noise. I guarantee you that if you write something super controversial, super, super controversial, it will go viral, right? Good social media. So just like the understanding how you fit in within, how you're not staying in this no man's land.

Okay. I love that. And I can do, I mean, my best post, which is nowhere viral, but I sort of wrote this, which comes from pure experience of when ChatGPT came up. I wrote this post, which basically, when ChatGPT is a waste of time, and that was just like opening sentence. And then I went into why I believe there's many, many cases where you don't need to use that and you can just code up things yourself. Again, I'm like technical person, just like you. And yeah, and people sort of went like, yeah, yeah, you know, I've been like using back and forth, back and forth. I'm not getting what I need. It's annoying. And it just felt like resonated with many people and it went to the sizes of impressions, which I never seen that before with my account, which was my first sort of like realization that, you know, what actually means getting a locally viral post.

but think about it on a way of like why this post, whenever a post went viral, we're always like doing research. We're always like taking it back, taking to the backend and understanding why it went viral to learn for the future. So the reason it went viral, this, your post, and just from like hearing about it is because you hit a specific motion with the readers, right? And this time whenever ChatGPT launched, everyone was like, wow, I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my job. I'm afraid, like I'm a software engineer. I probably won't have a job in the next few years. Like, what am I going to do? So whenever they're like scrolling through LinkedIn, wanna catch up with AI, someone is saying, it's a waste of time, don't deal with it. And they're like, oh, okay, good. I feel good. So you triggered an emotion. And being controversial and being controversial and triggering emotion, that's the basic level of it. And that's how you should treat it. I'm always encouraging my copywriters and encouraging myself. To understand what emotion am I trying to trigger in this specific post. Like, what do I try? What, what my goals are? My goals is to get more followers. My goal is to get more deals. My goals— what my goals? How do I elevate the, the reader emotion? Like, doing it, let's say, um, it can be an emotion of jealous, it can be emotion of proud, it can be emotion of sadness, it can be a lot of emotions that you want to trigger. But that's what will make the reader keep reading and engage with it.

Okay, is, is the emotion necessary for the audience to start developing trust towards us, or are there some emotions which are more or better to build trust with audience?

Um, I think like anger is the easiest to build. I'm not saying to build trust, I'm saying to build audience. Anger is the easiest whenever you're you're making people angry, it's the easiest for you to go viral because that's how people engage with content. Whenever they're angry or whenever they feel it's too controversial, it's too out there, too much, you're hitting the spot so they will like, comment, engage. I'm not saying you should do only this type of post, but hope is a really good emotion to trigger within people that I highly recommend using in your content. Proud, like being part of a journey, making people understand that you will also appreciate them. Yeah, let's say jealousy is even a great emotion. Being jealous, like let's all this announcement posts of company X that raised like $25 million Series A. Like everyone is applauding, but everyone was like, oh damn.

Yeah, I would want to be in that space.

I wish I could have shared these posts. Yeah, yeah. It's a jealousy thing, you know, but everything is in motion. Everything is, it's a social media, right? If you scroll through TikTok and you're scrolling through TikTok, the best thing about TikTok is that you can know if your emotion is triggered in like 0.2 seconds, like really fast by the beginning of the video, right? From text, from everything that's like going on there. So whenever I'm scrolling through TikTok, you can go ahead.

No, no, no, continue, Ben.

I'm saying, so whenever you're scrolling through TikTok, you're like, you're seeing something that said like, let's say, I don't know, uh, um, some influencer girl that says POV, uh, you're dressing for your brother's wedding, let's say, for example. Okay, it connects me emotionally with this story because my sister would get married. I want to feel the emotions that she felt the same day, that like something that is relevant to this. So it's, it's easier to do it on TikTok and like video, uh, um, thing that we can also talk about LinkedIn videos because it's definitely a game changer recently. But it's definitely something that triggers emotion and helps you go more viral.

So if I want to build trust though, Ben, so when I think about, you know, people buy from people they trust, like we know that, right? You first need to get seen as trustworthy for people to sort of start looking into your services or product, right? So if I'm triggering anger, I mean, would they trust me with solving their problems? Potentially, maybe not.

Not necessarily. I'm saying building, like, using anger is more for audience building. Okay. Trust building.

And what works best for trust then?

Um, hope.

Okay.

Um, yes. Um, proud, pride, like this type of emotion.

These ones. Okay.

Again, whenever other people are talking about you, uh, highly, this really works good. And like, if you're able to get testimonial from other people that are like posting about you, that That's amazing because they're like, their trust, that's the emotion that you're like, you're letting them trust you through other people. If you wanna like grow your business and service.

That's excellent. Right, so.

The one thing I wanna mention is that I saw a lot of case studies and a lot of things that I saw live that people build audience with anger and then pretty easily converted it into trust.

Right.

So you can build the audience, you can build the right audience and then convert it into trust and then convert it into being this trustworthy person. You understand what I'm saying?

Bait and switch.

Yeah. I'm not saying, I'm not doing it a lot. I'm not this type of person. There's a specific type of people that love doing it and it's going well and it's like, that's their thing. I'm not necessarily doing it because that's not my style in business. But again, all the tools are in front of you. Okay, it's important to talk about everything.

Why does it take so long? Um, is it algorithms or is it just the nature of the beast to actually, you know, build, uh, up to the certain point where you can leverage that? And where I'm coming this from is, you know, is myself. I wouldn't say that I'm consistent or anything like that, but It's a very slow burn, you know, like a podcasting industry, YouTube content creation, you know, LinkedIn as well. It just takes time, right? And I think a lot of founders really underappreciate the journey they sort of entering to and they maybe have this, you know—

Expectation.

Expectations like, boom, I'm gonna, you know, commit for 3 months and after that, you know, millions are flying in or something like that. And it becomes like a year's journey and even more, right? So it's like, what's your point of view? Is like, why, why does it take, you know, like, like time, right?

Like, why, why does it need to give you the best answer that is relevant to anything? If it was easy, everyone would do it.

I love that. If it would be easy, everyone would do it. Everyone would be influencer.

And yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's the thing. But if you're willing to commit, like, let's say you don't want to spend a lot of time and you want to use an agency like us, if you're willing to commit $50,000, $60,000 a year and push yourself out there and make yourself uncomfortable, you will succeed. I guarantee you, you'll succeed. But if you're expecting that in 2 months you'll go mega viral and you'll get tons of audience, that's what will solve your company P&L, that's not what you should do. That's definitely not what you should do. So again, and I appreciate a lot of people who does a lot of like podcasts and something because it's very, very hard to stay consistent. It's very hard to like keep it going because you're not always seeing the dopamine hit that you want to get, right? Always seeing it, but you got to keep pushing because most of the founders and most of the people that we know and most of the stories that we hear are not from, are not coming from, it's not like a one night success. It's never like— it's, it's very— it's like 0.01%. It's like a one-night success of from one post that went viral, right? If you're talking about even MrBeast, he spent since he was like 7 shooting videos on his, on his room. And like, that's, that's— he was obsessed about it and he was like, since he was a child, he was working and grinding and learning and improving and being obsessed about it so he'll be able to get to the point that he's at today. But he worked his ass off to get to this point. So it's not something that you're like, oh, I spent 3 months, I'm not seeing any ROI. Yeah, I guess this is not our channel. And it's related to— and it's also in a lot of things in life. If it would be easier, if it would be easy, everyone would do it.

Yeah. Okay. I love that answer. I mean, puts my mind at ease a little bit because sometimes I do lose patience. I'm going to be honest. I think you very rightfully put it in the sense of you're not getting this gratification, you know, that dopamine hit. You're not seeing these results at scale coming in. And, you know, it's like you just need to sort of grind and just continue, right?

And then still— Would you start a business with expectation to be rich in 3 months? Probably not.

I think everybody— well, not 3 months, but I think everybody starts a business with expectations to be wealthy to some extent, and I think they highly underestimate the time.

Would you give up after 3 months if you're not rich yet? Nah. Exactly. So this is like, it's, it's like the same mentality that you need to go into.

Okay. You know, is there timing averages which you can share, Ben? It's like, what's, you know, like, let's say I'm starting from scratch and let's say I'm not learning, uh, by doing. I'm just like hiring, uh, you know, people like yourself who will help me with everything. What's realistic expectations to hit the point where, you know, I'm getting a decent pipeline of leads?

It's really depending on the person and it's really depending on the company and also how much are you being— are you able to be like out there. And, and it all comes down to the goals, like what your goals are. If your goal is to be viral and go viral, okay, we'll encourage you to be more controversial We'll encourage you to take more things that like help others. We'll share lead magnets. We'll show a lot of stuff that makes things go viral. So then after 3, 4 months, you could expect to like another 5,000 followers or something. We have clients that in 3 months got 12,000 followers and that's incredible, right? Because that's their goal. If your goals are more lead gen and pipeline and things like that, I would say like if you're using a company that know what what they're doing, I would say like 4, 5, 6 months is a decent amount of time to understand, know exactly where we're heading and start seeing some traction and build out the systems around it to be able to support your growth. As I said, I have clients who closed like 3 deals that generated $180,000 in inbound in the first 2 months so that we have another 2 years of actually generating revenue with a net positive ROI. Or I have clients who after 6 months got their first one or not at all and they'll get it on the 8th or Kinds. So it's also on the company itself, you know. If you're selling something that is like no-brainer for, for 85% of, uh, uh, uh, founders, then yeah, it makes sense for you, uh, you'll get more traction soon. But if it's something that is like more niche, you need to sub-niche into this sub-niche as much as possible and then generate, uh, this pipeline that you're talking about.

Okay, I love that. So, uh, let's talk about, you know, consistency and, uh, healthy consistency or a healthy rhythm for someone who's a busy founder. And I want to emphasize this healthy rhythm because ultimately we're saying there is a necessity of time commitment and that for you to be winning in this space, you need to have that consistency for a fairly good amount of time. We just mentioned like 6 to 9 months, maybe a year, maybe 2. So you probably want to take consistency which you can stick with for a you know, for a year or so, right? So that would be like a healthy rhythm. Does it really matter if, you know, like if it's not enough? Like, you know, like, oh hey, I can do like one post every two weeks. Would you come in and say like, no, no, no, that's not enough. Like you have to do at least like two a week or something like that. Like in general, like what's the, you know, what's the science behind consistency?

So LinkedIn also favorite posts that's already posted like a week and 2 weeks ago sometimes. So like you can, it can be the LinkedIn post cycle is larger than TikTok, let's say. Okay. Lifecycle of a post. It's larger than the average social media. So I would say like, I would recommend a healthy cadence will be between 2 posts to 5 posts a week. That's like a healthy cadence.

Yeah, a week. Okay.

That's what I would recommend posting and focusing because you want to stay— your whole goal is to stay top of funnel. Your whole goal is to be in people's head, in people's mind. You want people to remember you. So I would say 2 to 5 posts a week. That's a decent posting and that's what we offer to our clients as well. There is a lot of people who still doing great with posting once a month. Twice a month, once in two months, but that's definitely not their, uh, biggest growth channel. They have different growth channels. Okay, you think I want LinkedIn to be my growth channel, you have to stay in between the 2 to 5 times a week.

Okay, and we effectively, um, when we're posting, right, so we, we talked about the types of posts that the, the top, the middle, and all these funnels. So we're pushing the content. So I want to talk a little bit what happens after people engage with the content? And when we say engagement, it's not just likes. Maybe it is likes, you know. Do you go after people who actually engage with the post by likes? And when I say go after, I mean, you know, go into DM and either connect with them or send them a message. Someone leaves a comment, you know, you start conversations. Like, like, what's the, you know, that second, um, level?

There's a lot of way of doing so, um That's not how the way I do stuff.

Okay.

I'm more of like, I let people come and then whenever they're coming, whenever they're asking questions, I'm capturing their mind. I think if you try to oversell, eventually people will get tired of it. And it's including like, if someone just reacted to your content, did a like, and you immediately popped into their DMs and you're like, hey, that's what we do. We're like personal branding agency. We help founders grow their personal like he'll, he will never do like again. Yeah, he will never finish your content. He doesn't, he won't care about your content anymore.

What if you go in and something like, you know, general curiosity about, hey, you know, I've seen you like my post, you know, what did resonate with you here, you know, something like that, like just to open conversation.

So it's fine, but I'm saying don't do it too often and too fast. Like let things go through it. I found a lot of great partnerships and a lot of great friendships through LinkedIn because I just let it be and I post it and I let it be. And eventually when it's coming to a place of like soft selling, it's just easier for me to close it.

You understand what I'm saying?

Yeah. And there's a lot of people who will sell either otherwise, there's a lot of people who say like the minute they engage with your content, they're interested, go pitch them. That's fine. I respect that. That's just not, I just don't think it represents the founders that I work with. And if someone really want to do it, we're doing it. But that just don't represent like the person-to-person selling thing and like branding, I want to say, because people buy from people and you don't want to like flood their DMs and like, you know, send millions of DMs and hope that something, you know.

So, okay, so we're sharing content which is valuable. people engage and then effectively they will come to us and they, as in they will DM us, they will reach out to us and that leads to opportunities.

They will maybe go to your website and close a demo.

Yeah.

There you go.

So that's a warm lead effectively. Yeah.

Yeah. That 95% of my intros, not of my like website leads are, you have like a, how'd you hear about us? LinkedIn. 95%.

Okay. So what about commenting on other people's posts in your industry? Like, we have been given, um, you know, some tips from other, uh, you know, LinkedIn, uh, just for context, uh, we have a handful of LinkedIn experts on the show because it is such an important growth channel. And one of the advice for the B2B relationships were actually go into comments or either your competitor or industry or other industry experts and start leaving comments which add value to the post and does get seen by others, as in almost like, you know, fish eyeballs from your competition to yourself by providing a valuable comment. Is that something you guys explore or do?

So this is the part that we're doing the sales. Like, this is, this is this after content. This is the most important piece. Okay. And the fact, the way that we're doing it is we learn our ICP, the ICP of every one of our clients. We love it. We have like a forum, we go into it. We're using LinkedIn Sales Navigator or any other tool that help us understand exactly who the person is. We're adding them to the network. So another like growth hack that I'm sharing here for free with everyone, whenever someone approves you, he see your content for the next 48 hours on top of their homepage. Page. So like, if you add someone, let's say I added you, you will see my content for the next 48 hours, like more often than you'll see it in the future. So whenever you add someone, try to add it like whenever you have a good post coming up, because they will see it most, uh, uh, more likely they will see the content. And next step after you add them is that you go and engage with their content. You engage with your ICP's content and your competitors' content and everyone in your space Connect. So you want your face to be visible in the most of like as many places as possible. So this is like the outbound of it is something that people, a lot of people, like you said, spraying and praying. It's also related to all the outbound engagement and not outbound messaging, outbound engagement specifically of like understanding your ICP and go and engage with them. Make the thoughtful intro, make the thoughtful connection, make the thoughtful like, comment, or everything you're doing, because that's what will lead the soft selling you're trying to get out of LinkedIn and not necessarily the message of like, hey, I saw you engage with my content. Okay. So whenever I'm getting, and think about it otherwise, like whenever I'm getting a really good comment from someone, I immediately wanna see who the person is. Like, it's interesting.

Yeah.

It's interesting to see who the person is. And then I'm learning about his company, whether I want it or not, but I'm going and checking it. Right. So this is another thing that we're like, that we highly going into as part of our services.

Okay.

I see.

I actually love that. So in theory, you could do this strategy based just on the fact that they will see your content at the top of the feed after the connection where you can build, you know, build ICP bundle of people, prepare content for those people, then go connect and then do the, you you know, the content at the same time. So you sort of fill your— Yep.

It's a full strategy. Yeah.

Yep. Okay. That's actually excellent. I didn't know, by the way, that— Thanks for sharing that, Ben, that after connection you're going to see people's— they will see your content at the top of the feed. Makes sense.

I've heard about it a lot of times on my LinkedIn.

Yeah. Okay.

Right.

So I want to ask about friends liking your posts or engagement pods. So, uh, so I've seen that being done a couple of times, you know, where people have their friends or maybe their colleagues or what, you know, whatever, very close family type of level connections. And then, you know, they post and, and these people always like, you know, here's my like, here's my like, here's my like, right? Which leads to sort of a very similar, uh, engagement pod situation where, where people, uh, sit in WhatsApp group, let's say, you know, it's like 100 or whatever, they like, here's my post, everybody goes in and just likes, likes, or leave some random comments, something like that. It's like, what's your point of view on that one? Is that like, does that still work? You know, would you advise against it and why? And just your point of view.

I think as long as it's done thoughtfully, it works, it helps. As long as it's done thoughtfully and relevantly. Like, this is a service that we're also offering as an engagement service. Definitely helpful. A lot of clients getting much structure and more like 3 times growth, um, than what they got before. It just helps you get into the algorithm faster. Um, but if your content is not good enough, that's what I'm telling everyone of my clients, if your content is not good enough, it doesn't make sense. Like, it won't work. Eventually you will just be tired and nobody will care.

So we're saying, of course, content, good content post, and then when we post, the engagement pods gives, gives us that The kick, the good start, like the kickstart, which effectively tells, uh, tells LinkedIn that, hey, uh, there's something going on here.

Just, just like, because LinkedIn is built different than other social media platforms. LinkedIn is built on a way of, of, uh, LinkedIn is a user-saturated platform compared to Instagram, for example, is a content-saturated platform, right? Let's say I'm scrolling, I think I follow like 1,000 people on Instagram. And I never see all the stories in a day. Like I'm never able to get to all of my stories and like finish all of the stories of people that I follow with because there is a lot of content that is going there, right? So I miss a lot of stuff.

Yeah.

On LinkedIn, the opposite. They're trying to find you the right content for you. Because there is more users than, there's more users, lurkers, people who just scroll than people who post, then they're trying to find you the right content. Whenever I like and engage with your content, my followers list, some percentage of my followers list will see that I liked it. Like, and we can represent it by scrolling. You can do it by yourself, like scrolling like a minute and a half on LinkedIn. I'll scroll it, I'll scroll it right while we speak. And I'm scrolling, I'm seeing it like, for example, this person, I know that I'm not sharing my screen, but like this person commented on this post and then, oh, Okay, so this post is being seen to me, although I'm not connected to this person. And so it's like a chain of people that bring people, but the content has to be good enough to go into the third and fourth chain to actually go viral.

Yeah, it needs to be seen as valuable. So these, these heavy posts, by the way, just very quickly on the type of posts, not on the funnel targeting, but on like, hey, I just written this text post. And then, hey, I've written this text post, but it's getting shipped with some type of image. And then the same post, less text, but it's carousels. The same information, but, you know, done as a video, as a short. And then maybe the same information expressed in the questions, like a poll or something like that. So basically all these different types of content of LinkedIn is, are we saying there's a best for certain types, or we should just reshuffle the same content with various types and see what works with our networks? Like, how do you choose what sticks, if that makes sense?

Can you repeat your question, please? Sorry, I wasn't— I needed— yeah, just repeat it.

Yeah, so you get the post, right? So you get— you're posting about something, so you can just write this down as a text post. You can write the same down and then attach an image to that, You can convert the same into carousel, and you can do the same as shooting yourself as a video and posting as a short. And then, you know, you would just do the same, uh, content with all of them and just see what works.

Uh, I wouldn't post about the same thing over and over again. I would just try with different types, different posts, and, and, and we'll try to see what works. But obviously you should combine all of them in your strategy. You should have all of them. You should have carousels, you should have videos, you should have photos, you should have text only, you should have everything. And what works best for you, that's what you should double down on. I have clients when their graphic posts are getting mega viral, more than 200,000 views with photos and videos are going nothing. And I have the exact opposite. So it's really also depending on your audience, what they like to consume. I would definitely include all of it in my strategy and then narrow down to what works better.

Okay, excellent. I love that. Right, so let's go into rapid questions, Ben. Just quick ones, 30, 60-second answers, just hopefully to give our listeners more tactical things around LinkedIn. What's one common LinkedIn tip you think is overrated and why?

A tip that I think that is overrated?

Yeah.

It's a good question. I think like I'm really into optimizing profile. I'm really into like optimize your profile and like making sure that it's like looks good and feels good, but it can be done really, really easily with just a really good banner and a profile picture. That's all you need and not like optimizing all your about section and bio and everything Like the most important piece is your profile picture and your banner. That's it. Don't overcomplicate it. Don't spend your time on creating content.

What do you put in the banner? Is that like your—

Something that makes me understand what you're doing in 2 seconds.

In 2 seconds.

I want to go like, yeah, we call this 2 seconds test. I want to go to your profile and like my banner is like the simplest ever. And it's like, let me even read it to you. And there is like, if you're a premium, you have the option to do like a scrolling banner that is like 2 photos even.

Yeah.

But my banner is, we turn your content into revenue.

That's awesome. I love that. I mean, my banner is shit. It's like an image or something.

I need to go. You can use our profile optimizer. Our profile optimizer basically tell you how to improve your banner, your photo, your everything, and it's free. But yeah, for example, if I'm going to your banner, what I'm seeing is Mastering Tag Growth. So I'm seeing a microphone and I'm seeing a controller, like an Xbox or something.

Yeah.

Controller.

Yeah, that's what I mean, the shit.

Then it's like your headline, I help founder grow tech startups, like, which is great. Maybe I would add just like a founder and CEO at your company. But I love, I think banners with one-liners are usually doing better because like straight out of the bat, that's what I do. And then make, if people are interested, they will go and read more. So that's why I don't think like you shouldn't go too deeply into the about section. The buy, like, focus on the, on the profile picture in the, on the, in the banner.

Okay, save the other time for to actually do some content. All right, do hashtags still matter and are they just, you know, just clutter effectively?

No, don't do it. Don't, don't even use it.

Do they actually cause, uh, do they cause harm? Like, do you—

in this, in this AI area? Yeah, because people feel like it's AI.

Right. So when people see hashtags, they go like, noise or something like that.

Yeah. That's it. And again, I'm not saying, but I learned it from LinkedIn itself. Like the LinkedIn team told us.

Why do they have it as a feature then? It's like, why do you?

Every company has it. Every social media has it as a feature. It's like a standard, but they're not promoting it in any chance, in any way. So I wouldn't lean into it.

All right. Is it better to post in the morning, afternoon, or the timing is just not something you should be worrying?

It should, and you should understand it based on, you should test it and see what's working for you. Usually I would recommend Monday to Friday, 9:00 AM to 3:00 PM Eastern if your audience is on the East Coast. If your audience is on the West Coast, then take it to the West Coast hours. If your audience is in Europe, then Spanish spend it like the morning, but like, LinkedIn is more like a business thing. It's more like a workflow. So mornings usually works better. Morning, noon. That's where I would focus.

Okay. So we're basically saying understand your network and what time zone they are in and target their time zones morning. Yeah.

And understand your ICP time zone, not only your current network. Okay.

ICP time zone. Right. And we're saying—

if we say the overrated tip is profile optimization, the underrated tip is LinkedIn videos. Like, that's— go all in on it.

Why?

Because they're trying to promote it. They're trying to boost it. They're trying to make it like it's easier to go viral with video because of the new feature of the LinkedIn videos on mobile. They're doing like a scroll, like TikTok videos. So do a lot of videos.

So you want to do like a short setup type of videos like TikTok, YouTube Shorts, same for LinkedIn.

Exactly. They're doing it. It's working.

Okay. Do you need to ship it with the content as well? Is it just like video and couple of words? Like your approach basically the same as TikTok?

No, it should, the content should be really good as well because people will see it on page and will engage with it and will want to read more about it. But again, videos are the way to succeed in 2024. 5 as well.

Okay, I love that. I got a plenty of videos, man. I need to go back, think about my strategy, right? So how do you spot the difference between someone building a real brand versus someone chasing attention?

I think it's related to how much value they're providing. If they're providing value to the readers, if they're providing providing value to their audience and like actually trying to support and teach from their experience, then I would say it's a real brand. If it's just like clout and trolling and trying to get attention, then that's the opposite way.

Is there any point to chase attention on LinkedIn? Just purely on LinkedIn. I mean, we talked about anger and controversial takes to just get the followers up, but when it comes to LinkedIn, you know, when it comes to B2B, building trust and then looking at closing deals, do you even want to chase attention?

Um, yeah, because there is no bad marketing. Okay, no bad marketing. Also on LinkedIn, um, marketing is always good.

So if people talk about you, then we happy, effectively, good or bad. If people say something, always—

you can always use it for the better.

But okay, uh, what's the most effective type of post structure if there is one in your point of view?

A really good hook, short hook that includes the word I or we. That's like, that's a game changer.

That's the first sentence, right?

Yeah, I or we, because that's related to what I said at the beginning, like connected with your own story. Have like a good chunk of content that is like the main take of the content. And then if you want like a call to action that connects to the comments.

Yeah, so when we talk about the main chunk, um, is it, is it like, uh, you know, do you play this intent game? As in, you know, here's one problem which I know people are searching, so you sort of almost like do, uh, search engine optimization. You look at some keywords, you look at some problems, and you take that and your content is actually how you solve that.

I would focus more on the storytelling. Of it. Is it more?

Okay, I get it.

Yeah, tell the story.

All right. Is it okay to repeat yourself on LinkedIn or should every post be new?

Um, people are, people are repurposing content. I repurposed content twice. I did it like 2 posts and, and because a lot of people think that everyone will remember everything they said, but that's definitely not true and nobody cares about a post that you posted 8 months ago. Yeah. So a lot of people repurpose content. A lot of people reuse it, change a bit of the wording and like—

So effectively we're saying it's fine. Just if you have a post which did well 3 months back, take it, repost it literally the same, or are we saying take it—

It's your call. It's your call. You can do it, you cannot do it. It's your call. But like I wouldn't create my strategy based on it. You know, I wouldn't like focus on, just repurposing. If it's like something that you're willing to do and like you're out of content ideas after a couple of months, you can start doing it slowly but surely. Don't heavily depend on it.

Okay, what's your success metric when it comes to LinkedIn? Follower counts or comments you get, impressions, deals you close? Like, what do you look at, you know, data perspective, and you go like, this account is great?

Profile visits.

Profile what?

Profile visits.

Profile visits. So people coming into your profile.

Yeah, I'm getting way more inbounds when I'm getting more and more profile visits.

Okay, I love that.

Yeah, that makes that your content is good, that people engage with your content, that is like just goes viral as much as possible.

And with the premium, you actually see people visit. With the premium, you see who actually visited your profile, right?

So you can Not 100%, but like you're seeing some intense about it. You're not seeing everyone, but you're seeing some of them.

Okay. What's one tiny mindset shift that makes showing up on LinkedIn feel easier?

Understanding that nobody gives a fuck about what you're doing. You're not important.

I love that. That piece of really overthinking and overcaring what you're about to share. That stopped me so many times, man.

It's general about content, it's just not only LinkedIn, it's TikTok, it's Instagram, it's everywhere. Yeah, like nobody cares, nobody cares. People will laugh until you will succeed. So yeah, it's better to start as soon as possible and then succeed.

And then, so, so we're saying basically if you, if you don't know, still start, still spray and pray is still better than doing nothing, as you have mentioned. But then Once you start, you want to, you know, become more professional about this or more targeted or more strategic about this. But the idea is that if you have something to say, just go ahead and say it. No one really cares. Exactly. Okay. Well, I love that. All right. So where can people learn more about the services you guys provide and the other details you want to share with the listeners? Because I'm sure they got value from the show and they're thinking, okay, how do I get in touch with Ben now?

So you can go to my LinkedIn based on my name, Ben Waron, as well. You can go to my LinkedIn, you can go find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, or at ben@windmillgrowth.com. Our website is windmillgrowth.com. You can see everywhere it is going there. We're actually launching a 7-day free trial to one of our services soon.

Nice.

So you can go there and maybe even try one of our services to see if you like it. Yeah, we have all the information there. We're explaining about the services. We have tons of free value on our website. Website. So like we have a 7-day free course guide to just like opt in and learn about how to write content on LinkedIn, how to convert, how to do everything. We have an AI profile optimizer that you can go to our website, submit your profile, and after 2 minutes, 2, 3 minutes, we're sending you a full profile audit on your profile and how to optimize it, how to do it better based on our experience. So everything, and just feel free to reach out and talk. And if you're here and you saw any fun value of it, I would love you to send me a message, uh, uh, so I'll know. But yeah, that's, that, that's it.

That's awesome. Uh, for the guys not listening live, which is majority of our listeners, scroll down to the show notes, all the links with there. And thanks Ben for sharing all of that for free, especially, you know, the Profile Optimizer and, and, and all, all the other tools. I wouldn't— I would encourage everybody to go ahead and try that. I'll do that myself. I really need that Profile Optimizer, Ben, so I'll do that myself. I'll give you feedback after that. I'll tell you what worked, what didn't. To our listeners, if you found value in the show right now and you know someone who tries to leverage LinkedIn for growth, do share this episode with them. Do share the links of Ben with him or her. Help them to grow on LinkedIn. And for every— everybody else, thank you for tuning in. Stay safe and see you online.