Episode 23: Leading Sales Teams During Difficult Economic Times, with Mark Stouse - Part 2

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Right where you need to be. Welcome back to Stronger Sales Teams, the place where we deliver real world and practical advice to help you develop your super powered B2B sales teams. So last week we had a great discussion with Mark Stuss from Proof analytics, all about what's changing in the world of go to market optimization. And we started to really dive into adversity. Well, Mark's back with us again today and we're going to talk more about how sales leaders can improve their performance, their team's performance and their business performance, and deliver great outcomes to customers, particularly in times of adversity. So, Mark, thanks very much for joining us again and welcome back.

Hey, thanks so much, Ben. It's great to be back.

So how about yourself? What are your top learning avenues or learning hacks that you employ on a day to day basis?

So I don't think I've ever said this before. Okay. But there are many. But one of them is being on podcasts like this one. It's kind of like, you know, in Parliament. Right. Question hour. Right.

Or question day, when they extend out.

Yeah, Right. So the PM and his staff, other ministers, have to stand and deliver, right. They have to endure the questions of not only their friendly right, but also the loyal opposition, which those questions are never pleasant, but they always make you better. And so I put myself in that place a lot because it keeps the synapses firing.

Right.

And there's kind of like, for me anyway, there's two different aspects of learning. There is learning something new that I didn't know before. And then there's also the assembly of all of these things that I've learned into a cohesive whole that sort of represents a net new learning.

Right.

And a lot of times when I'm doing podcasts or press interviews or whatever and responding to customer questions and sales calls and you Know, in talking to investors, right, Pieces suddenly fit. They fit together, they congeal together in a way that perhaps I hadn't thought of before and I don't usually talk about it right then, you know, it's not like, you know, the thought happens and two seconds later it's coming out of my mouth. That's, that's always a dangerous proposition, right, to do that.

Freestyling salespeople, One of the most dangerous propositions in the world.

Yeah, the sudden idea, Right. It's not a typically a safe place, Right.

Well, particularly when you've got a captive audience, they're waiting to hear it. That's right.

So when I have one of those epiphanies, right, I will keep turning it over in my mind and usually I will start to use it pretty soon thereafter. I mean, for a lot of people, you know, like the classic is, hey, I'm standing in the shower and all of a sudden it all came together in my head. Has that happened to me? Sure. But the way that it normally happens today is in a conversation like this one.

So what you're actually talking about is practice. But you're talking about practice in match simulations. In fact, even in real matches, right, where you're not necessarily in the shower, you're not doing case studies in a really safe environment. You're putting yourself out there where you need to be sharp in your thinking and agile in how you communicate. So the result from this is that by putting yourself into game like situations as often as you possibly can, you're allowing yourself the practice to be able to consolidate your thoughts. But I think what's also happening, and right now, for example, you're listening to me, that you're able to find yourself in a position where you can consolidate your thoughts. So as leaders, if we are putting ourselves front and center, that might be with customers, that might be with our team, that might be with leaders, that might be with stakeholders or influencers in our industry. We can expect to learn at a really rapid rate. I really like that. How about from a tech point of view or more formal learning, are there any resources or any types of modalities that you tend to go to to learn yourself?

Yeah, I mean, my kids joke all the time that dad doesn't read books, he eats them. Right. Because I read excessively. Right. And all kinds of stuff. Actually, this is a great example because it will illustrate something in a broader sense as well. So when I'm not doing, you know, proof or my family or whatever. Right. One of the things that I'm really into and have been into for a long time from a very scholarly perspective is the study of innovation in pre Renaissance Italy and Germany. And the reason why I do Italy and Germany is they were both hotbeds of innovation pre Renaissance. By pre Renaissance I mean like the 50 years or so leading up to the formal beginning of the Renaissance, they were hotbeds, but they both did it very, very differently. They thought about it differently, they executed differently.

Right.

So it's. There's a real compare and contrast opportunity from a scholar's perspective. So what happens to most historians, if they're really dedicated with it, is that sooner or later every historian becomes a futurist. And it's because history does repeat. It's not that it repeats exactly, far from it. Right. In fact, everything is different except for one key factor, and that is human nature. So if you pay attention to all this, particularly let's call them the ripple effects of history, in this case the ripple effects of innovation, you already have some idea, for example, of what AI is going to mean for our society. It's not that you can somehow prophesy exactly what it's going to be, but, but you certainly know directionally and kind of in a. From a point of intensity how to think about that. Like for example, one of the things that we learn in history, right, Again and again and again, is that if you want to understand the future power of a technology, the speed with which it is militarized tells you everything you need to know.

Those that are multitasking, now's the time to come back to me. We talk regularly about the importance of your baseline. So the bigger your base, the higher the peaks. And what Mark's saying is that he may go out and learn and read and listen and build new skills about something completely unrelated to what he does in his job right now. That to be said, the Italians and Germans, that trade was quite important there, right? So they're very early proponents of sales and marketing teams. But by having the largest perspective that he possibly can, Mark is then able to apply it to a real world situation. So the big the base, the higher the peaks. Super, super important as a sales leader, if you can continue to grow on that, then you're going to be able to put yourself into positions where you are agile enough to find a solution. So Mark, before we finish up, because we do have to let you go shortly, you've spoken about alignment a couple of times. An example of a time when you've had a team member out of alignment and what you did about that to bring them back into line.

So I'm going to give you kind of a controversial answer, but I think it's true. I think it's almost always true. Positional power dictates alignment. When someone is out of alignment, it is almost always, unless we're talking about malfeasance, bad behavior, bad conscious choices, right, Things like that, that would be a clear exception. But otherwise, when someone is out of alignment, it is always their superior's problem. It's their superior's failing. One of my key jobs is to maintain alignment, right. And how do I do that? I clearly enunciate expectations. I don't do that unilaterally and I don't do that as some sort of, you know, minor potentate. Right. Like one of the best ways that I ever saw this done was for a long time I had another business in the defense sector that meant that I was in the field with militaries around the world. And one of the things you see a lot in a lot of elite units, right, in particular, but even more broadly is that the squad or the platoon will sit down with their lieutenant or their sergeant and they will discuss very openly and non hierarchically the problem, the mission, what needs to happen. And it's very egalitarian for about 10 or 15 minutes. And then having taken all the input on board, a decision is made and everybody lines up behind that decision. And now authority matters. So when I'm defining alignment, I go out everywhere, and not just within proof. I talk to a lot of peers outside and other companies about the issue, whatever it's going on. Right? But once we determine what alignment needs to look like and how we're going to understand it and how we're going to measure it and all this, what the expectations are, then if it persists, if the lack of alignment persists, it's almost always my failure to enunciate clearly what's expected because most people really want to do a good job, right.

A really interesting way to look at it. So when you have an employee out of alignment, you're looking in at yourself rather than outwards at them.

Yeah. And here's the other thing. Let's just say that the reality is, is that the person is incompetent in the role. Whose fault is that? Right, that's my fault.

It's our job as leaders. We need to either bring them up to speed or exit them from the business. So let's not confuse here, team positional power being telling people what to do, what we're Saying here, and what Mark's saying is that positional power means that it's your responsibility to get it right. So yeah, it's accountability. Yeah, I love it. And that is a really good way to end today because for me, that saying if it's to be, it's up to me. It is in everything that I do. So when things are not going right, when you're facing times of adversity, when your skill set needs to sharpen, when you have team members that are out of alignment, or even above all of that, when you need to get your messaging out to the customer, it's in your control to be able to make sure that you can influence that in the way that works for your customer, your team and your business.

Can I say one more thing about that?

Yeah, absolutely. Let's go for it.

This really applies to tough times. Leaders in the middle of tough times can never underscore bold face, put it in neon lights, never be too hard on themselves.

We don't get it right every time, do we?

Right. I mean, the thing that drives me crazy as a leader is when I know I've screwed up. If it involves another person. Right. Or other people, and it usually does.

Right.

I will go to them and acknowledge it. This, by the way, is not like, it's not like a moral or ethical failing. It's a decision making failing. Right. You know, and I will not only apologize, but more robustly I will say, hey, this is what I have learned from this. Please hold me accountable and please forgive me.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

And I think that is so important. Right. Because again, your team wants to know that there is one set of rules and that you're never going to hold yourself to those rules more loosely than the way you hold them to those goals.

Yeah. So you're creating that safe place to fail, but the open environment that acknowledges when things don't go right. So I thought we had a good place to end a few minutes ago, but I think that's even better. Leaders, give yourself a break. Give your team a break, but make sure you're continuously improving and driving. So, Mark, thank you very much for your time today. Myself listeners, very, very grateful. If you want to know more about Mark, for me, best place is proof analytics. That's proof P R O F A N A L Y T I C S Great way to find Mark and what he does out there.

Mark, where else can our LinkedIn for sure, right? I mean, I'm very, very active on LinkedIn. You can either PM me or just weigh in in a thread and tag me. Right. And I will always respond and I will never pursue you or chase you. Right. That's not why I'm on LinkedIn.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you Mark. That wraps up today our podcast with Mark Stuss, MD, founder of Proof Analytics. Been a great chat. Really, really grateful for though. Until next time, keep living in a world of possibility and you'll be amazed by what you can achieve.

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