Episode 94: Nailing The Buyers Process to Monetise More Sales, with Matthew Whyatt

Hi everyone, I'm Ben Wright, successful entrepreneur, corporate leader and expert sales coach to some of the most talented people our amazing planet has to offer. You're listening to the Stronger Sales Team podcast where we bring together and simplify the complex world of B2B sales management to help the millions of sales managers worldwide build, motivate and keep together highly effective sales teams. Teams who grow revenue and make their businesses actual profits. Along the journey. We also provide great insights and actionable steps to managing your personal health. A happy and productive year is not only better for your teams, but everyone around you. So if you're an ambitious sales leader who wants to build the highest performing and engaged teams, stronger sales teams is right where you need to be. Welcome back to Stronger Sales Teams, the place where we provide real world and practical advice to help you develop super powered sales teams. Today we have gone local. How local? Well within four hours or so of where I am right now is sitting Matthew White. And in Australia, I think that's pretty local, particularly up north. Matthew White, sitting down on the Gold coast in Australia and he is our special guest today on the Strongest Sales Teams podcast. Welcome Matthew. We're going to throw to you in a moment, but before I do, I'd just like to give a quick introduction about you. Matthew's one of those guys that has a really varied background that for me was quite attractive because I think it really broadens perspectives around what is a pretty serious landscape in sales. He's owned companies with sales in excess of $100 million. These have been in areas such as IT, software consultancy, real estate, health, business licensing, and even the dreaded the doom loop of franchising. So plenty of broad experience there. He's very much about the science of buyer centric selling, which we're going to jump into today and empowering people to make the right decision based on the best choices. So he's not that guy that likes to come in with those really heavy, overbearing sales techniques that are focused more on getting a client to say yes rather than getting a successful outcome for them. So I really like that and that resonated with me when I was reading Matthew's bio. He previously was CEO of Velocity sales training. So he's got not only sales experience but also sales training experience in his blood and he worked with Bob Urachuk, you can correct me if I've got that wrong in a minute. Matthew, who was one of the top 10 sales gurus over many years. But more importantly, that company worked with Fortune 500 businesses, government departments, and quite a few others along the journey. So again, some real breadth and experience there. Since that time though, Matthew had that itch to forge his own path again if you like, and started what was now called Tech Talk Systems. So that provides strategic sales consultancy, sales and sales management training, mentoring, coaching, and there's some marketing work in there as well. So, Matthew, welcome to the Strongest Sales Teams podcast. Lovely to have you today.

Great to be here. Thank you very much, Ben. That's a great intro. Feel really very pumped up now. Maybe I should just. That should be the end of the podcast, right?

My pleasure. Yeah. The recording done? Well, it is December. Everyone's pretty busy, so. So we'll see. But look, for me, the thing I'd really like to do here is for you to describe a little bit more about yourself to the listeners before we get into today's topic.

Okay. So always been a salesperson. As I was saying earlier, my dad was head of sales for a public listed company. I've been known sales since I was very, very young, 12 or 13. First sales job out of school was selling vacuum cleaners door to door, which was ridiculous to think that you could sell a $3,000 vacuum cleaner and 1993, but you could. And we did. And then from there we just went from different, you know, obviously it grew over time. And then started my first technology business when I was 22, so in 1999. So it's did that. And since then I've always led from the front of the sales room. As I was saying earlier in our conversation, is that my best days, even though we grew the business very successfully, we had 70 people dotted around Australia, New Zealand and multiple offices. But my best days, my most productive days, my happiest days was when I took a sales desk in the sales room next to the, well, not next to the sales manager, but you know, a couple of desks away from the sales manager and I would compete in that sales room, speaking to leads on the same lead rotation as the salespeople and just quietly still being the top salesperson, even though we had the guy. We had seven guys in there and girls in that sales room, all of them heavy hitters. But I really enjoyed that sales piece. I even got to a point where we hired a CEO and a management team just so I could spend my time being the lead singer of the band, being the salesperson in the business, which I absolutely loved. So that's my little bit of background about me.

Excellent. And I love a leader. I don't mind whether you're At C suite level, sales level, or any other level. I love a leader who's prepared to carry the bag and continues to draw those customer relationships along the journey with them. Because I just think it keeps you relevant. And those who know me will know that I'm very consistent here around sales leaders and leaders of business is making sure you've got a direct line to your customers. Otherwise, you simply cannot learn. You simply cannot hear and listen and see all those opportunities without that. So love that background.

Yeah. I would start, you know, today, you would call it a town hall, but we just called it a meeting, you know, because we, you know, back in the day. And I would say, I would start a lot of those meetings with saying, ladies and gentlemen, just a reminder, this is a sales and marketing organization. We have software, we do finance. We have a whole bunch of delivery mechanisms inside the business. But we are a sales marketing organization. And everything lines up behind sales and marketing, which, of course, the people who wrote the software and service the software and did finance and administration. I just needed to have the whole business understand what the point of the entire company was, which was to make sales.

Yeah. And if you can align everyone in the business to feel that level of responsibility, to serve customers, to look after them, to look for their best interest, fundamentally, your business is better off. Well, let's talk about customers for a moment. And I think the area we're gonna focus on today is around, more broadly speaking, the presentation phase of businesses. And we call that the quoting phase. We can call it whatever you like. There's lots of different words. But the area I'd really like to start off on is that buyer's process. Can you talk me through your broad thoughts? It's always dangerous when you're asked such a broad question, but can you talk me through those broad thoughts around the buyer's process and what it means to you?

Yeah, look. So all of the people who are listening are going to be professional salespeople. Let's. Let's say that. And we'll all have a sales process and hopefully have a sales process. A lot of organizations that I go into don't necessarily have a sales process. They wait for the phone to ring, or they follow up a lead and they hope for the best and make a few emails. But let's say that these people are professional salespeople who are listening to this or want to get better anyway at sales. The thing that most businesses don't realize, most people don't realize that buyers have a process and buyer's process is A four step process. And first of all, it's fly to the salesperson. And it sounds like, no thanks, just looking, we've already got one, I don't need it, whatever it might be. And so, you know, this is the sort of thing that we've got to overcome when trying to introduce our ideas to the marketplace is getting over that first step of no thanks, just looking. And I'm not here to tell people scripting, that's a whole other conversation about scripting. But getting past that first part and if we recognize that no thanks, just looking is going to be the answer, we need to come up with a strong opening statement. We need to create a structure inside that first piece that enables the person to come step forward. For example, Christmas is coming up. You're going to go into a bunch of retail shops. I know I'm going to. And the shop assistant is going to say, can I help you? And it's going to be no thanks, just looking and can I help you? Is possibly the worst question you get asked because it's fairly binary. It's yes, no, it's go away. And honestly, you see it in this, in the sales assistant's eyes, they don't really want to help anyway. They just want to get back to TikTok. So we want to make sure that we're asking open ended questions. So retail situation it might be, have you been to our store before? Creates a conversation and they go, yes, great. Well, you'll know that the underwear is down there and the fishing gear is over here. If they say no, well, great, you'd know that the underwear is down there, fishing gear's over there, and therefore it allows you to ask, so what are you looking for? And it starts creating that exchange of conversation. And creating a conversation is the most important part of sales. So first of all, we've got to get over the no thanks, just looking. The second thing, and we call that lie to the salesperson because they just want to get in first. Enough people have had enough exposure to salespeople and I am a salesperson through and through enough people had enough exposure to salespeople to know they've just got to get in front of it and say no. A preemptive no. I actually got a message the other day from somebody I connected with on LinkedIn and he said, before you do anything, Matthew, I'm not interested. I connected with him on LinkedIn and he preempted the pitch. Not that I actually do pitches on LinkedIn, but people are now at a point where they're so ready to say no that it's front of mind. So the first thing we've got to do is have a strong opening. The second part is a section where a lot of salespeople think they've got a hot lead on their hands, but they completely lose control of the whole deal. And that second part I call free consulting. The customer says, tell me everything about it. Does it come in blue? Where do you store it? Is it stored on Amazon or is it stored on aws? How does it work? How often does it work? Who else uses it? And what happens is the salesperson falls into a situation where they're answering all these questions. I think they got a live one on their hands.

And.

And often questions are there once again to try to eliminate the deal. Because doing nothing is a legitimate result of a sales engagement. And doing nothing kills so many deals. And doing nothing is certainly in the businesses my clients sell to, which are often large organizations, corporates, and government organizations, doing nothing is the preferred method of engagement, because doing nothing means they're going to get in no trouble, the status quo is maintained, and their job is not under threat, and there's no risk to doing nothing. So we've got to get over that point. So we've got to find a way to take those questions and learn more. Because your job as a salesperson is to learn more about the business and diagnose the situation and prescribe a solution. And if you start prescribing a solution without understanding anything about the business, it's malpractice. So therefore, to turn those questions around, you need to be able to question the question, and you need to be able to do it elegantly without seeming like just another salesperson. So if a person's asking about cloud storage, you know, do you guys use aws? The answer's not yes or no. The answer is, well, Mr. Prospect, we've got a number of ways of dealing with cloud storage. Do you have a particular preference? And what that does is starts getting you to understand the business. And then if they say, well, our preference is aws, okay, well, you must have a good reason for saying that. Would you mind sharing it with me? You're learning more about the business. And then if they say, and then I would always back up that question with the third question, which is, look, if we find in our initial engagement that other online providers are better suited to your organization, would you be open to change? And you're learning so much about that, Prospect, because if they say no, well, first of all, you're not going to recommend anything other than what they've said they need to have. And second of all, you know, they're going to be belt and braces, they're going to be very narrow and you need to excel into that channel, sell into that narrowness strongly. So that's how we get around that free consulting piece. Because if you're the one answering questions, you're out of control. If you're the one asking questions, you're in control.

Yeah, absolutely. Keeping control of the football, any type of ball, doesn't matter what it is, if you've got that control, it's really powerful. It's funny. And we'll let you continue in a moment. Spoiler alert. I've pre recorded the Christmas episode because that's not going live on Christmas Day. That's my normal scheduled day, Wednesday morning. So we still are going to have one go live for those that are really keen. But one of the pieces that I spoke in there about is three Christmas wishes for sales leaders. And one of those is around a dependable pipeline and there is without doubt strong relationships between the quality of that needs analysis, which is what you're talking about. You can call it free consulting, we can call it asking questions, whatever you like. The more time you can spend in those early stages of building a relationship, the stronger the outcome is going to be at the other end and the more likely you're going to have a positive outcome from that experience. I really, really like that and absolutely without doubt concur with the building relationships. As early as you can, you ask a yes, no question, right. We call it a week offer. You're going to get a weak response. Absolutely. Yeah. Fantastic. Keep going, Matthew. Love this.

So the first part is lie to the salesperson. Second part is, you know, get away from providing free consulting. And the third part is once again lie to the salesperson. And what does that look like at the bottom end of the sale? Well, that looks. So what does that sound like when you're communicating with people? That sounds like, send me a proposal. I've got to talk to the directors, I've got to check with my astrologist, got to pat my dog, whatever it might be. All through the process there, you've now got this blocker and a lot businesses I work with B2B technology businesses and I work with most of them or all of them are software that often will have to go and talk with other unseen people in the, in the, in the process. So of course in that discovery part, you need to understand who they are other than yourself, is anyone else involved in decisions like these, that type of thing? You know, I'm sure every salesperson has in their kit bag, they should have it in their mind, they should be able to woken up at 3am and ask that question. So how we get around that, how we manage that is yes, you might need to send a proposal, you might need to send some paperwork. So therefore we need to create some jobs for the client. Because the time in which you lose complete control of the sale is when you say, okay, I'll send this to you and I'll follow you up next week. So you lose complete control. What happens is that email goes in, the client now receives 10 other emails, that gets buried and now you've got. And then the phone rings, they go, oh geez, it's been, haven't done that, haven't looked at that email yet. Deny. And immediately that creates this very small sedimentary layer of I guess, anguish and stress and anxiety. And also if you start following up enthusiastically because you're a professional salesperson, they start making you wrong for following up. They start making the salesperson wrong. They go, well, I've got emails and now they're phoning me, you know, I'll get to it when I get to it, I'll buy when I'm ready. So how we shortcut that is by giving the customer a job because. And this is how you do it. You know, Mr. Wright, I'm going to go ahead and send you this proposal. I'm going to get that to you by close the business today just so I can make sure that we're on the same page. When do you think you'll have a chance to read through that and come back to me with any questions, thoughts or comments? And they're going to say Wednesday, Thursday, whatever it is. Okay, cool. So do you want to put something in the calendar for them? So give them a job to read it?

Yeah, you're booking your next meeting, so.

Always book a meeting from a meeting and if they go, oh well, I'll come back to you, or you know, whatever the version of their unseriousness comes to, the light comes out because they will start to squirm, they will start to deflect at that point and then you start realizing how motivated they are. Because in that discovery process you need to make sure that you're covering off. And there's a thousand different ways to put this, but I always think of the qualification is the main game M A I n money, authority, interest, need and if you've got money, authority, interest, need, and they won't book a message, book a meeting in the future, that means that they might be missing out on interest or money or need or authority. You might be talking to somebody too low and you're not able to actually create that sales momentum. So give the customer a job. When would it be reasonable for me to hear back from you and then from their answer, you then book a meeting and then follow them up and continue that conversation. So that's how we get around that, the never ending hellish loop of follow up. And the fourth part is in the sales cycle in how buyers buy is hide, don't answer calls, don't answer emails, that type of stuff. So that happens to me. Obviously, if you've set it up properly by asking them questions and answering fewer questions, then they're going to be able to fill in their gaps for themselves. If you've given them a job and you've booked in the next meeting, there's a very good chance you're going to have that meeting and then so hide. So the presentation part or the next part is less stressful. Now if you've sent a couple of emails, if you've made a few attempted phone calls, it's time to break up. I reckon I get a 30% uplift in response rate just from that breakup email. And if anybody is listening, go Google breakup email. HubSpot's got a list of them. I say I like to use the one about giving up. Nobody likes to give up. Nobody wants to have their ego hurt or their feelings hurt. You say, hey Ben, sorry I've missed you a couple of times. I'm going to assume from not hearing you, you've probably given up on the project. Hope to hear from you soon. If you let me know in the future if I can be any help, send.

Yeah, it's that walk away position where you're not afraid to say, my time's valuable, your time's valuable, let's go and look at something else. We speak very similar languages in regards to this, Matthew. And you walk away. It's amazing how often someone will come back and say, do you know what? Actually I actually am interested and for this reason, whatever it may be, I haven't been able to get back to you. So yeah, if you've built that level of relationship, to be able to ask that question without fear of upsetting someone, very powerful. I like that. And particularly the hiding place. I wanted to comment as you're going along once that first no on the phone call comes through, there's that little habit that starts to build around. It's okay to knock back this person's calls. And it only takes one or two. Of course, I'd never do that to my wife or family. If anyone's listening, I never, ever block those calls. But certainly if you start those habits, they build and build and build and it can be really difficult to break from there. So I love that. Can you go through those four again? Matthew, would you mind?

Yeah. So the framework is, first of all, lie to the salesperson. No thanks, just looking. Don't get caught in the free consulting trap. Tell me everything about the product and how it works. Third part is lie to the salesperson again. Send me a proposal. Got to run it up the chain. Talk to my dog. Probably not talk to the dog, but. And the fourth part is hide from the salesperson again. And each one of those, if you know that that's how buyers buy most of the time, I'm speaking in generalities here and you've got strategies to go. Well, I need a strong opening. I need to ask questions, not answer them. I need to make sure I give the client a job. And then after a couple of attempts, I need to break up with them. Send them something, you know, not terse, but certainly break up with them because your time is valuable. As valuable as theirs. The good thing is, in my sales jobs, I've always had the thinnest back book. I'm old enough to remember literally having a back book of a lever arch file with paper in there. That's how old I am. And I would have the thinnest version of those because if somebody said no, and I genuinely thought that was a no, I'd get rid of it. There'd be so many salespeople in the team who were weaker, salespeople who had this giant backbone who would make hundreds of calls a day. But I was always at the top of the sales board simply because I asked the question. And when I got an honest answer, I moved them along. That's the end of it.

Yeah, well, the modern day version of that is they go on to an automated nurturing program. Right. Where if they become interested down the track, they can do that. But certainly there is merit. If you can get the real yes or the real no. There's merit in being able to move freely from those. Okay, I love it. Really like that framework. There's going to be some transcript notes for today because you've moved pretty quickly through some of those, but certainly very powerful so put yourself in the shoes if you can. Now you're a sales leader, you're coming back from a brilliant Christmas and New year break into let's, let's forward schedule you into 2025 and you're wanting to know how to turn the growth tap on for your team over the next 12 months. How are you going to really grow? Where would you start?

Are we assuming there are enough leads?

Let's give you full canvas on here, but let's assume it's an established business that's ticking along, but they want to rev that engine to be able to really grow and accelerate lots of areas of that sales team.

Got it. I would be spending most of my time with the salespeople understanding their attitudes towards themselves, the business and the product. I would be resetting that. I would be creating, creating an understanding of whether or not they really love being here, they want to be part of it and they genuinely believe by deploying their greatest selves, their greatest version themselves on every single call, their customers are actually going to be better off by buying it.

Yeah. Wow.

Because if you have that genuine deep belief in the customer will be better off by owning this product, then you will do what it takes to actually make that sale.

Yeah.

If you're not genuinely committed to the customer being better off, genuinely better off to owning that product, owning that service product, software, whatever it might be, then you're just going to go through the motions. You're not really going to spend the time reading over the Christmas break. You're not going to make the effort to make that extra call, have that uncomfortable sales conversation with the, with, with your prospect. You're not going to ask the hard questions. And once we establish and define that you are genuinely committed to the organization, then we can talk about the tactical execution of how you do that with scripting, with process, with takeover. Let's say you've got some weaker salespeople or newer salespeople. Well, let's map the sales process so we actually have a chop off points where the salesperson hands over to a leader and that person is set up to close deals if they're a lower than salesperson. But it all comes back to belief in the company, the products and themselves. That's where I'd be starting.

Perfect. I have asked that question at least 30 times over the last 18 months. Gee, I'd be close to having 30 different answers. And I love it because they all have slightly different perspectives and I don't think I've had anyone, anyone. Now we're Stretching now. Right. We're up to 18 months, I don't think. In fact, I'm going to do a podcast that is a summary of all of those questions. I'm just, we're going to cut it out so you can watch that one coming. Fantastic. Matthew, thank you very much for joining us today. Matthew Wyatt from Tech Talk Systems. Can you talk us through how people can get in contact with you if they'd like to interact with you further? Sure.

Okay. So obviously Tech Talk T E C-H-T-O-R q u e.com au is the website. So the best clients that work with me are the ones that have got a great piece of software. They know how to deliver it amazingly and now it's time to put the foot down on the marketing and sales front end of the business. So I only work with software and technology businesses and those businesses who it's time to scale up. I don't spend a lot of time with businesses in that early stage startup phase. My job is to and I find it more difficult to steer a stationary ship. My job is to really put some rocket fuel into the sales and marketing of the organization. So that's the type of business that works best with me and I work best with them. So techtalk.com you'll find me on LinkedIn. I've got a few thousand or 13,000 connections there, so find me on LinkedIn. I do monthly webinars and so there's plenty of content out there. Also, I host the CEO and the Salesman podcast where I interview CEOs of larger technology organizations, ask and understand how they got to where they got to.

Yeah. Awesome. Love it. Fantastic. Thank you Matthew. Really appreciate your time today. For everyone listening, please keep living in a world of possibility and you'll be amazed by what you can achieve. Bye for now.

Thanks very much. Bye for now.

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