#36: How Design Can Help (and Hurt!) Your Revenue

Hey, everybody. April Sunshine here. And before we start today's episode, we've got some big news. Marketing Made simple is officially part of the HubSpot Podcast Network. We're now part of a family of shows designed to help professionals like you listen, learn and grow by providing access to the world's leading B2B podcasts like Gold Digger with Jenna Kutcher, the Martech Podcast with Benjamin Shapiro, and us. You can check out all these shows and more@HubSpot.com podcastnetwork.

Hero Makers, you know that we certify the best marketers in the world to become storybrand guides. But did you know that we also certify full suite marketing agencies? That's right. If you own a marketing agency and you need your entire team to understand the StoryBrand framework, apply to become a certified agency at StoryBrand.

Most agency owners we talk to feel like they're carrying the burden of creating great marketing all by themselves and it's really costing them because they're burning themselves out, they're becoming a bottleneck for their team, and they're wasting time trying to train new team members or their current team members instead of focusing on growing their business. So when you become a Story Brand certified agency, you get on site training on the Story Brand framework for your entire team. We actually send somebody to you virtually to do the training for you. You get an exclusive license for your team to use the StoryBrand framework with all of your clients so that everybody can use the same proven framework to get results for your clients. You also get access to our amazing, unbelievable community of guides and other certified agencies and so much more. As a Storybrand certified agency, you'll feel confident that your entire team knows how to create marketing that works. Apply today at StoryBR.

When it comes to creating a great logo or design or look for your company and your website, so many companies feel like they have to sacrifice design for a clear message or have to sacrifice a clear message for design. But today we are going to talk to Kyle Reed, who is the Vice president of Design and development at storybrand and Business Made Simple. By the end of this episode, you are going to see that you do not have to sacrifice one for the other. You can actually have a clear message and a beautiful design for all of your marketing that invites customers into a beautiful story to do business with you.

Hello Hero makers. Welcome to the Marketing Made simple podcast, powered by StoryBrand and brought to you by the HubSpot network, where we believe your marketing should be easy and it should work. I am your host Dr. J.J. peterson. And I am joined by my co host, April Sunshine Hawkins. Hi, April.

Hey, hey, hero makers.

April, I just did something that is. Well, it's actually very like me, but.

Okay, I'm intrigued.

I was going to say it's not like me at all, but you'll see why I say both of those statements. So somebody reached out to me on Instagram and they really just wanted to say thank you for how the story brand framework had helped them launch their Kickstarter for a new product they had developed.

Oh, I love it. I love that.

Yeah. So it's just kind of this very simple thank you. Nothing else. It was just, hey, thank you. And so then, of course, I did a little digging into their profile and what it was, and I went to the Kickstarter and spoiler. I'm just going to tell you right now, before I even describe this, that I am now a backer for this product.

Okay.

And I purchased it. It's a company called Drankful.

Oh, I love the name already.

So Drankful. So thankful.

Because I'm always trying to get you to drink water.

You are always.

I mean, I assume that this is a water thing, not like a other drinking.

No, no, no. That would be funny if it was, but no. You are always saying, I need more hydration. You bring me water all the time. And I'm grateful. I'm actually incredibly grateful because it's just. It's not that I don water. I forget to drink water because it's not with me all the time, which is exactly what this product does.

So, yes, good job, drinkful.

I know.

So what they do is they really have redesigned the way that a water pack works. Like a water carrier, works like hydration pack. Yeah. Like when you're hiking or biking or all the things that, you know, I do all the time.

It's the things that Brent and I do all the time.

Things that you guys do all the time. And I thought about getting it for you for Christmas, but it wasn't going to be ready in time. And so I got you nothing but what?

Thank you.

So instead of getting your drink full pack, I got you nothing. You're welcome. And so. Because it wasn't going to be here in time, but I got one for me. Because when I went to this site, all of the images that they used were people who I kind of wanted to be like. Like, I want to be like you and Brent secretly, like inside. Like, I want to be on trails. I want to be in nature a little bit more. That is Something that I want to prioritize and seeing people on this website out there doing it. And that is really key because so many products and services that are out there, when you're promoting it in your marketing, they think we have to make the product itself be the star. And when we talk about on this podcast of how you need to not be the hero of your story, that's the mistake a lot of companies are making is they try to make the product itself the most beautiful and the most luxurious. Now in the luxury space, sometimes that works. We know that, like if you're doing a very high end car, a very high end watch, a very high end diamond, they can be the star a little bit. There's some nuance to it, but yes, but really, for the most part, companies make the mistake of making their product or their business the hero when really they need to be making the customer the hero.

So hero makers, it's really important what JJ is saying with Drankful, he was drawn in by people who look like him. So let's think about the story brand framework. We have the character, aspirational identity, who do they want to become more of? How can you show that in your images? Then what is it that they want? You've got to also feature that. Then how are they experiencing the problem in their life? Maybe it's a water bottle that they are not interested in carrying around anymore. And then you, of course are the guide who then provides a plan, calls them to action and paints failure and success. Choosing your images to match the framework is a great thing to do.

It really is. And that's actually what we're going to be talking about on today's episode.

Oh, you're going to talk to our very own. Yes, Kyle Reed.

I just started laughing when I was thinking of his name. I love him so much. We adore this man. But even more than just adoring him as a human being. Kyle Reed is the vice president of development and design for Business Made simple and Story brand. Which means that if you have seen any logo, any font, any color, any pictures, any imagery, any website that you've been to, that came from Kyle, even the podcast cover art was designed by Mr. Kyle Reed. And he gives some really practical tips that even if you are not a full time designer or do not have a full time designer on your team, one, he gives you some tips that you can do immediately to start beginning to think through the process of creating things and the images specifically you're using on your website. But also the tips are going to be really applicable for you when you start working with a designer, because you are now going to be able to not have to waste time or money on designs that don't sell. So this is a great conversation today with Kyle Reed, the vice president of design and development at Business Made simple and Story Brand.

Kyle Reed, I mentioned in the intro that you are one of my favorite people in the entire world.

I am so happy to have you on the podcast. The truth is, every single thing that comes out from Story Brand and Business Made simple has been designed by you. Or at least now with that, you have a team, has had your eyes on it. Right? I mean, and. And how far back does that go?

Gosh, let's see. I've been working alongside Don for about nine years now. Yeah, it's been a bit. It's been a. It's been a minute. By the way, mom and dad, if you're listening, did you hear all Those nice things J.J. said about me?

Really, everything you design, I absolutely love. And it's not just because it looks great, which it absolutely does. Like, the stuff that you put out looks fantastic. It's attractive. Whenever it comes out, it is cutting edge. You're always kind of aware of what are the new trends in design. But beyond that, I think the part that I really respect the most, and this is why we wanted to have you on the podcast, is you really work hard to invite customers into a story with your design.

Yeah, well, that's great, jj. I think that a lot of companies either lean into one of those two things, and most of them actually just hire a designer to focus on creating something that looks good, and that's honestly just a small percentage of what we need to be focusing on. And through my time working with storybrand, I think that listening to Don and listening to you talk about clarity and all of the principles in storybrand, and it really translates really well into design. And so one of the things that's most important for me when I think about designing in the context of, let's say, a sales page or a homepage or whatever, it's really positioning your customer as the hero in all of your images. I think if I. If I were to say one thing on this podcast that is the most impactful thing you can do for yourself as a business owner or a designer, it's to make sure your customer's position is the hero in all of your images. A lot of companies position themselves as the hero in those images or position their product as the hero in those images. And it's really not compelling for visitors to the website. It's not inviting them into a story to be a part of identity transformation that their product can help them achieve. Right. And so most companies that. That's what they do and they're losing out on a lot of revenue. And you really want to use imagery to paint a picture of who your customer will become when they buy your product.

I think that's so key. That idea of when it comes to design on your homepage or PDF or anything, any marketing material you're putting out there is. What kind of aspirational identity are you calling your customer to? I think that's so key. If they can see themselves in the story, then they are more likely to purchase the product. So give me kind of just give me an example of. Of that, how that works. Just kind of really practically.

It reminds me of we bought, my wife and I, we bought a Peloton, which I absolutely love. Peloton. You know, if you want to throw some. Some size 13s my way, I'm into it.

I actually did like almost 200 workouts last year, which is crazy to think about. Yeah. But when we were deciding on. Oh, yeah, totally, you and me were working. But when we were deciding on which product we wanted to buy, we wanted. We knew we wanted to get a bike. And we were looking at whether we should get like a Peloton or an order track or one of these other competitor. And so I was thinking about that the other day we decided to go with Peloton. And I think there's some stuff that was happening psychologically for me when I went to their website and started comparing them and I put both of them up the other day just to go back and go, why did I choose Peloton over a Nordic Trek? And I looked at them both and it was very clear to me night and day, what they're doing on their websites through their videos and their photos. Peloton is showing a video of somebody like me working out, working hard. And at the end of the video, something really special happens. They get so happy and they look satisfied and fulfilled with what they just did. And I saw that and I said, I want to be like that person. I want to feel that way. And that's why we chose Peloton.

I love that tip because just for everybody listening, it's so practical. I don't care if you are a graphic designer or not, if you have no idea how to create logos and colors and anything. If you can just look at your website and go, are the images on my website, customer centric, do they highlight the aspirational identity of a customer? What a customer will feel and look like after they've used my product or service? That is so huge. That is huge. I think for everybody listening, if you can just do that, start there, then you're going to be miles ahead of your competition. But you have some other like just kind of things that really guide how you create design.

Yeah. I think that the one of the other most important things you can do as a designer is don't make your customers think, don't make them burn calories. You guys, you have to create products and design products, design websites, design so that your customers don't have to burn calories in order to buy your product. Make it really easy because we always say clarity wins the day, right?

Yeah. And every time that people have to think or make a decision, they are burning calories. When we say don't make people burn calories, that's what we're saying is you actually have to burn calories to process information. And our brain only has actually in any given time a limited number of decision making slash thinking calories. We actually run out of those. Which is why when you're in a meeting for a full day, you're exhausted and cannot think. Well, that's a physical, that's not like just an emotional kind of thing. That's actually a physical reaction. Your brain stops working. Literally your brain stops working. And so what we always say when you're creating copy for a website is the idea that you cannot be confusing because if you confuse people, you will lose. Right? You will lose that sale if you confuse people. And it's true in copy, but it's also true in design.

So true. And you know, there's a, there's a little process that I follow. It's really three steps here. And the first step of it is to get, to get everything clear to, to design. Clearly you follow these three steps. It's remember who you're designing for. Your hero needs to be at top of mind when you're designing anything. You know, it's all about that Persona of your customer. Are they, are they 65 or are they 25? The experience you're going to design for those two people just with those two data points is going to be very different. So keep your hero in mind when you're designing and then as you start working on the product, as you start building, invite a trusted voice into that process, someone you can bounce your design off of and say, do you know What I want the customer to do here, do you know how to buy the product? And you know what? This is a big level up for a designer to remove your ego from that process and allow somebody like, you know, I have this guy, I don't know if you guys have heard of him, J.J. peterson, who comes into my workflow and has a chance to give me constructive feedback. And I tell you what, I haven't always been that way, but the second that I was able to kind of detach my identity from that design and get that feedback, our products got so much better. So bringing that person into the process is huge. And then finally you're going to launch it and it's not going to be perfect, but what you're going to do then is you're going to listen to your customers and you're going to take action on their feedback.

I love that so much because I think especially when you're designing any product, whether it's like writing something, something or designing something, it's. It's so hard to take our ego out of it. Right?

Yeah, because it really is.

You know, somebody is either going to say, oh my gosh, that's amazing, or like, you know, if they're your friend, they might go, oh, wow. Oh, that's cute that you did that.

Exactly.

But.

But you know, the thing to remember too, jj, is like, what's the goal? Is it to impress your friend or is it to sell a product? And so I think what really anchors design decisions for myself is staying focused on accomplishing the goal, which is to sell a product. At the end of the day, we have to grow the business. A great example of what we're talking about here is we came out with this product called my business Report. We launched it to a smaller group of our certified community, and they gave us some feedback. One of the pieces of it was, hey, the thing is with, it has so much black within the design that my printer is going to have trouble printing out this product every single time. I want to get my report printed out and sit down with my customers or my clients. And I thought, well, it's supposed to be on the screen. Why would you want to print it out? You know, and, and you know, that's where the ego check has to happen. So that, you know, we went back and we designed a version that was printer friendly. And I think that what that does is it not only makes it for, it makes a better product, it also shows your customers that you're listening and then they're going to come back and they're going to be a part of your ecosystem. They're going to be evangelists for your brand again and again.

Everybody has those awkward years, you know, where you thought frosted tips were a great idea. You were going through awkward growth spurts. I mean, I bleached my hair twice. We've all been there. Businesses go through the same thing. From the morning you bring your brainchild out of your spare bedroom to the night of your IPO, a HubSpot CRM platform helps your business grow better through everything. Awkward braces and bleached hair and all. Automated marketing tools allow you to create consistent, multi channel campaigns for clear, concise communication with less mixed messages. You can even use email marketing tools to send, test and optimize your emails for different devices and inboxes. And HubSpot's reporting dashboard. Dashboard gives you a bird's eye view over your marketing, sales and customer service performance so you can get ahead of any issues before they even happen. Whether you're at an enterprise level or just Getting started, a HubSpot CRM platform is easy to implement and ready to scale with you. Learn more about how a HubSpot CRM platform can help your business grow better@HubSpot.com.

And now back to the show. Well, give me one more tip we can offer our listeners on how to approach kind of story based design.

Absolutely. Well, we've kind of been dancing around this a little bit throughout this conversation, but the best designs get people to buy. Yeah, you can make it look pretty, you can do all the bells and whistles, but really what it comes down to is we have to stay focused on the goal which is the best designs get people to buy. You know, sometimes we have to sacrifice some of our design decisions in order to get people to buy. And you see that all over the Internet. You see, you see extremes. There's a little controversy in this conversation right now. You see some extremes on the Internet. Some people are so heavily focused on trying to get their people to buy that they lose sight of the brand. They lose sight of the experience that you want to provide to somebody that is a really good quality experience and a good relationship with your brand. On the other end of things, they lose sight of getting people to buy and their companies fold. So I think there's this beautiful middle ground that I try to live in this space it's hard to get to and I'm still working on it and still trying to figure it out. But it's marrying that, getting, focusing on getting people to buy with beautiful design. If you can bring those two things together and live in that like Venn diagram, overlap that right there's the sweet spot. And that's kind of helped our company grow and helped me grow in my career too, is just how do I continue to get there.

And that's still so important in what we call story based selling. Right. Like the story brand framework. Because here's why that's important. It's still about the customer. Because we know when the customer buys, their problems are sol. Right. If your product actually solves people's problems, then the way that the hero wins is by buying your product. So, yes, this will help you sell more product, but you have to still think about it in terms of. This is the climactic scene for the hero. When they buy this product, they move further in their journey of solving their problems. And so when you hide the call to action button, you know, the buy now button on your screen. I have worked with companies who have this beautiful homepage and I say, you have no, you have no call to action on your homepage. You have no buy now, shop now call now button. And it's costing you money. And they're like, but if we put it up there, it kind of ruins the image. It's like, oh, yeah. Oh, my dear friends. Oh, my dear friends.

Yes. It's a puzzle. It's a puzzle for your customers. Right?

Yeah. You're causing them to think too hard and work too hard. And it's, it's like, no, no, no. You need to help your customer see very easily and quickly how to buy your product. That is what the design should do. The design of any product, the design of any marketing is to lead to a sale.

Yeah. And this is another good opportunity to invite that trusted voice into the process. It's, you know, jj, we talk about doing the grunt test. Don talks about the grunt test. You talk about the grunt test list. It's all about bringing somebody in front of your website and saying, in five seconds or less, do you know how to buy my product? And if they can't succinctly tell you how to do that, you have a problem and you need to fix that. So that's, that's kind of like the gut check test that I like to do before we hit launch.

You know, Kyle, I love this conversation so much and I know it's going to be so helpful for all of our listeners. I think if they can just begin the process of doing those three things of looking at their imagery that they have in any marketing and saying, is this customer centric? Is it about the customer story? And then second in the process of getting it out there, remembering that it all is about the ease of use for the customer and getting feedback from them so that you know you're on the right track. And then lastly really focusing in and making sure that the call to action is clear. The Buy now buttons anywhere are clear. Even if it means, and I know again, controversial, even if it means you have to sacrifice a little bit of design. Kyle, this has been amazing. Amazing. And I see this in everything you create and you are a master of all of this and so I'm so glad that our listeners got to hear from you and get their own tips today.

Well, thank you for having me on. It only took nine years to get on the podcast, so actually, you know, I know Marketing Made simple is relatively newer. You know, I'd love to take credit for all of what we do, J.J. but it's not just me. I have a great team at storybrand too. Emily Pastina. I've got Colin Smith and Zach Rusinski. Those guys have been a part of basically almost everything that you experience when it comes to storybrand and Business Made simple and all of that stuff. So. So shout out to my homies. They are amazing and I couldn't do it without them for sure.

Golly, I love that guy. Kyle, thank you so much for that conversation and really showing us how many ways we have to think of the customer first in our design and really be willing to put aside our ego for the sake of helping them win. And if you are stuck trying to figure out how to apply the Story Brand framework to your design, to your website, to your logos, to your marketing, then you can't hire Kyle. I mean, I'm just going to be honest. You cannot hire Kyle, but you can hire a Story Brand certified guide to design your website and your marketing. They know how to take the Story Brand framework and use it to invite customers into a beautiful story where they are the hero and you are their guide. Just go to marketingmadesimple.com to hire a guide that will show you how to clarify your message. Create amazing design and marketing that works well. Hero Makers, it's time to apply everything you learned with this week's actionable step. A practical step from today's conversation you can immediately use to shape your marketing and clarify your message. Today's practical step is very easy. I want you to go to your website and look at the images that you are using to promote your product and service. Are they images that focus on the aspirational identity of your customer. And when we say aspirational identity, we mean what is the person that your customer wants to aspire to be? How would you describe them? Are they adventurous? Are they outdoorsy? Are they a hiker like me? Are they somebody who wants to be organized? Are they excited? Are they a great mom? What are the words that you would use to describe your customer after they have used your product or service? And then I want those types of images, images that represent that type of customer on your website. Who do they want to be after using your product or service? And if the images on your website really are just focusing on the beauty or sleekness of your product, I want you to incorporate images using smiley, happy people after they have used your product or using your product. That is going to help people identify with the story you're telling and want to engage. Now the way that you can actually create that beautiful story and call people to an aspirational identity and understand what their aspirational identity is is by using the story brand framework. And we want to give you a tool, a free tool that you can use to create a beautiful story. Go to mystorybrand.com and@mystorybrand.com you have an online brand script. And a brand script is just a tool that we use to keep all your marketing and messaging the story you're telling in one place. And you will see on there that there are different elements of the story brand framework that you need to create. April talked about this in the beginning, understanding what your customer wants, their problems, the guide, the plan, the call to action. But there is a section in the bottom right hand corner, aspirational identity. And I want you to identify how is your customer feeling about themselves? Now before they've used your product, what words would they use to describe themselves now? And then what words do they want to use after they've used your product or service? That's called an identity transformation. And companies that can participate in the transformation of their customers are going to win. So use the story brand brand scri to identify what your customer transformation looks like. How would they describe themselves now? So they might be tired or overwhelmed or scared. And then how would they describe themselves after they use your product or service? So they're energized, they're alive, they're brave, right? When you can identify that that identity transformation, now you have the words that will inform the images that you choose for your website and your marketing. This is all about giving value to your customer. Solving their problems and making them the hero. That's why we call you Hero Makers. Another great episode of Marketing Made Simple. Thanks so much, Kyle. And thank you for listening and believing like us, that your marketing should be easy and it should work. That's all for this week's episode of Marketing Made Simple. Thank you so much for listening and believing, like us, that your marketing should be easy and it should work. Follow Marketing Made simple wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review the show, letting us know how these tips are clarifying your message and growing your business. We'll see you next week.