010: What If Your Weaknesses Are Strengths?

Hello and welcome to the Scaling Up Business podcast. Today we're talking to Dave Rendell about your freak factor. Getting your freak factor on. So for the last at least 15 years, Dave Rendell has been talking to audiences all over the flippin planet. I talked to Dave and see Dave via Facebook on a very regular basis and his pace blows me away. And as some of you know, I do a little bit of travel myself. So he's worked with governments and big companies and small companies and like that. And then on the side he runs ultra marathons and Ironman triathlons. Dave's got a background in as a professor in business and as a standup comedian. So I don't know, that's just like. Oh, and there's our train. Did you hear that? I did.

I thought that might be one of the sound effects.

Good morning. We're in the morning show. Lots of sound effects.

I don't know if you got like a quirky theme.

Yeah, my quirky theme is that I live in an old or I work in an old brick warehouse next to the train line. So we get that coming through pretty frequently. Sometimes you can also hear the BART train going by, the screeching, and then lots of trucks where I work. So welcome to the show, Dave.

Thanks, Bill. I'm excited to be here.

Nice. All right, so tell us a little bit about this freak factor. How did you get started in this? What's this all about?

Yeah, I mean, it really just is my personal story. I realized that I'd spent my whole life getting in trouble because I couldn't sit still and be quiet and do what I was told. And not just a little bit of trouble. I mean, I was in trouble at school and I get in trouble at home. My parents called me motor mouth. Everybody was concerned that I was going to be sort of a loser. And I was concerned I was going to be a loser. I mean, George Eliot says, we begin to believe what the world believes about us. And so I thought that my flaws were sort of irredeemable and that they were comprehensive and that they were destructive. And that if I couldn't learn to get myself under control, that's how the problem was framed, as a problem of self control, self discipline, that I was never going to make anything of my life. And I really believed that for a long time.

Rein it in. That's what you're supposed to do.

Yeah, rein it in, tie it down, get yourself under control, straighten up, all those kinds of things. And somewhere around age 30 or so, I realized that I was getting rewarded for standing up, not for sitting down. I was getting rewarded for talking, not for being quiet. I was getting rewarded for taking control, not doing what other people ask me to do. And I just sort of had an insight one day I was listening to an audiobook, and I'd been reading a different book and just kind of reflecting on some things, and I just realized, hey, what if my biggest weakness was also a strength? And that was the initial concept. That was the initial idea. And I just wondered that for myself and started seeing that that was true not just with one weakness, but every weakness seemed to be also a strength. And that it didn't just seem to be true for me, it seemed to be true for other people as well. So I designed the assess, started speaking about it, wrote the book, started blogging about it, and discovered that it's not only true for me, it's true for a lot of other people as well. In fact, seems to be true for most people in that once I started looking for evidence that it was true, it sort of seemed to be everywhere. And pretty much every day. Like you said, you and I are connected on Facebook at least once a week. But sometimes just as much as once a day, people send me a message on Facebook. You know, hey, Dave, here's an example of the freak factor. Here's somebody whose weaknesses were strengths. Here's somebody with an obvious downside that's an upside and obvious disadvantage. That's an advantage. And, yeah, it's just become a thing.

That's beautiful. And I love that. So I'm a big proponent of Gallup StrengthsFinder and discovering your strength, leveraging your strengths. And I note that there's a downside to every strength. Right. So I've got activator in command, but sometimes when you take charge, that's disempowering and upsetting. And as you know, know, I have a teenage daughter, and if I try to be a drill sergeant around her, it's. It's, you know, it's soul crushing for my. Yeah, yeah, so same too.

I've activator in command in my top five as well.

Yeah, you know, there's a great time for that. Right. There's a brilliant moment for that kind of thing. And then there's other times where you need to reign that in. Yeah, yeah. So tell us all about. Share a little bit more about how do we discover our own freak factor? How do we leverage it? What does it mean?

Well, because everybody's busy. I mean, it's not hard to discover that's the beauty of it, because everybody's telling you what's wrong with you all the time. Once you recognize that weaknesses are strengths, you can start to see the upside. So there's an assessment in the book that shows the connection between strengths and weaknesses. You just gave that example. Being in charge is a great thing, except when it's not time to be in charge or except when the other person wants to be in charge. And so the first step is awareness to know what our strengths and weaknesses are and to clearly see the connection. And then the next step is acceptance to not be busy trying to change those things or rein them in or fix them, but to see, this is who I am, and there's a natural upside for every downside, and I don't need to change this. This isn't bad. And that's sort of the next step, which is appreciation. To see once we clearly see that upside that goes with the downside, the strength that goes with the weakness, then it becomes this strengths development process. How do I capitalize on the upside instead of how do I rein in the downside? The example I give is, you know, side effects. Every medicine has side effects. And the only way to eliminate the side effect of a medicine is to reduce the dosage, to reduce the benefit of the medicine. And so in the process of trying to fix our weaknesses, we actually end up damaging our strengths. And so we need to not just be aware. We need to appreciate, and then we need to accept and then appreciate those strengths. And then as far as capitalizing it, the first part of that is amplification. We need to look for chances to turn up the volume. So we're being told to rein it in. When what we need to be doing is looking for a way to let it out, looking for a way to maximize it, looking for a way to turn it up, turn up the volume instead of moderating it. So an example for me is I got in trouble for talking too much. And now my title is a speaker. And that's literally all I do. And I was hyperactive in school, and now I'm doing Ironmans. And in my adult life, nobody says, dave, you need to stop being so active. And Dave, you need to shut up. People say, wow, in fact, I just. I'm speaking in a couple months, and I just got message from somebody that says, hey, someone's speaking after you. And they're a little nervous about it. Can you talk to them? I'm really good at what I do, and nobody complains about it. In fact, it leads To a lot of praise and admiration. And it's led to a lot of success. And so we need to be looking for opportunities to crank up the volume. But when we live in a world that focuses on our weaknesses, they're constantly telling us to reign those things in and to fix those things and to clean them up. And I think that leads to the next part, which is where you were bringing up, you know, okay, well, you got a teenage daughter and command doesn't always work so great. So the next part of that is alignment. You know, if we can find the right match between who we are and where we are, between our strengths and the situations that put a spotlight on those strengths, that's when we really have success. And there's always situations that are going to put the spotlight on the downside, on the weakness. And when we find ourselves in those situations, the question isn't how do I change myself? The question is oftentimes, how do I mitigate this situation or avoid this situation in the future and maximize the extent to which I can spend time in a situation that rewards me for my strengths?

Yeah, I think what you, to underscore what you said from my own experience, then to map it back, I see that while being activated in command with my daughter is not so helpful, it's helpful as her advocate and partner. So if she's got an issue with a school or some other group stepping in and providing that is appreciated. And then my creativity is of interest. And then in her world As a 51 year old dad, my musical tastes are way more broad. And so I'm way more open to hearing her music and appreciating what's cool about it than say my wife is.

Yeah, no, it's a great, it's a great example. And so even that's a great example that I hadn't thought of even in a relationship asking what parts of this relationship allow me to draw out the best in me and what parts don't and how can I look for opportunities to connect based on my strengths instead of trying to feel like I'm constantly trying to stifle my weaknesses when I'm around this other person? And again, and then that's one of the other pieces of it, which is affiliation. We need to partner with people who are strong where we're weak. So when you encounter a situation, maybe that's where you hand that off to your wife and you're like, look, I know these aren't the kinds of situations where I tend to excel. So if you could talk to her about this, or if you could take her to this, or if you could get involved in this particular activity, that would be good. Because it seems like when I try to have these discussions or when I try to do these things, it's just not, you know, it's not. It doesn't end up well.

Yeah.

And so those are, you know, that's a huge piece of it, that we don't have to be everything and that we can look for relationships and people, and sometimes they can even be outside of the family. Right. I mean, kids need friends, and sometimes there's an aunt or a family friend who can be that person who doesn't have a dog in the fight, who can step in and be an adult and be a voice of reason and. And share some wisdom, but in a way that the child just can't hear from a dad or a mom. And so looking to build those relationships and foster those relationships can oftentimes be a much more productive thing than trying to change who we are as a human being. And I think that's part of the process, too, is not only do we need awareness of our strengths and weaknesses, we need to help other people have that awareness as well. And we need, into a sense, communicate the reality that it isn't going to change. Right. I don't think it's wrong to tell your kids, you know, this is who I am. My wife, for example, is always late, and I've come to accept that and because it's part of what I teach. And I also realize that we've been married for 21 years and she hasn't been on time yet. So I'm not under the illusion that it's going to change. And so once I accepted that, it changed things. But my daughter likes to be 15 minutes early to everything. And she was complaining about it. And at some point I told her, I said, look, you've got two options. One is to acknowledge your mom's going to be late. She's been late for the last 42 years of her life, and it's going to continue. Or you can keep getting upset about it. But in neither one of these scenarios is your mom going to stop being late. With the other side of that is recognizing the upside. My wife has a friend who's also always late, and she posted on Facebook one time, it's better to show up late than to show up ugly.

What I realized was that people who.

Are late and some people just can't handle this, and they can't accept it. They can't appreciate It. But the reality is people who are late are usually doing something else and the other thing that they're doing, they've chosen to prioritize higher than being late. And I like to be on time. And what I realize is I oftentimes have to prioritize being on time more than other things. So we cut off conversations that matter. We maybe don't take that shower that we really need, or we don't take time to iron that shirt, or we speed a little bit on the road, or we do things in order to be on time because that's valuable. But we also devalue other things in order to do that. And so I not only accept that my wife's that way, but I acknowledge the fact that my wife prioritizes other things over being on time and that she's good in other ways. Timeliness just isn't one of those things. And so I think communicating to people, especially as they get old enough to understand that we are who we are, that we're not going to change that much, at least in a fundamental sense. And that, for example, you like to be in charge and you like to get things going and push and that's what's made you successful. And that what you'd like to do is serve that role in her life. And although she's not always going to appreciate that, and although that's sometimes going to be frustrating, that is who you are. And long term, you'd like her to sort of see it in those terms. And even though that may not always work on the first conversation, it does have an impact over time when we can tell people, look, this is who I am, and look, I know I'm willing to accept certain things about the way you are, and it becomes a mutual sort of thing.

Yeah, there's a time and a place for everything and every role. Everybody's got a place to shine. And I think we think about that when we think about who works in our companies and the people that aren't winning in our companies. And you could go with the notion that some people suck, or you could go that you don't have an environment or a role for them to thrive. And the longer you keep somebody who isn't an A player in your team, if you can't move them into something that is, then you're depriving them from an opportunity of being an A player somewhere and of course, having an impact on your business.

No, you're exactly right. We need to help people find the right spot. And if someone is failing it often isn't who they are, it's where they are. And we need to as employers, that's really. And even as parents and even with ourselves, the key in life is to match who we are to where we are. And when things aren't working, the go to for most of us is, well, I need to change who I am. And that's not really very productive and it really isn't to some extent even very possible. And a better solution is to look for chances to change where we are and to find that connection and to look for that alignment. And if we can do that for ourselves and do that for other people, I think that leads to a lot more happiness but also engagement and productivity and sort of meaning for everybody involved.

Well, in our conversation earlier you talked about with me about what was weird or different about me and then how to stop suppressing that and how to just find the right outlets for it, how to figure out the places where that was welcome. And I think about places and oh, people object, oh, I'm irreverent or I talk too much or whatever. Right. So finding the opportunities where somebody appreciates the irreverence and the verbal nature and the take charge thing, that's the key thing rather than and then knowing there are certain times, okay, this is not a place or a time for me.

I should go and how can I spend less and less of my time in those situations instead of how can I learn to not be myself in those situations. But I also think there's another key element to this and that is that it takes a lot of. Part of the reason we shouldn't be fixing weaknesses is it sucks the life out of us. I mean it literally saps our energy. Really, really difficult and it's really, really sort of painful. If not physically, then emotionally and psychologically. And so if you think of self control as a limited resource and you recognize that you only have so much of it, then the more time we spend in activities that require us to be someone else, the less and less self discipline and self control that we'll have. Meaning that when we encounter situations that we a can't avoid or that we can't adjust or modify and that don't fit us, we're really going to be depleted and we're really going to struggle. And the reverse is that if we can maximize the alignment for most of the time, the work that we do, the relationships that we have, that when we do encounter situations that simply don't allow us to be ourselves, but we need to put on a face and be something else for a short period of time for whatever reason. And sometimes family is that you don't fire your kids. And so sometimes family is that we have to give other people what they need instead of what we have. And we have to sort of, sort of adapt and adjust. But that should be the minority of the time. If most of the time we have alignment, we'll be filling up those reserves of energy and self control to the point that we can pull that off when it's necessary. But if our work sucks the life out of us and we come home after a long day and our family needs us to be someone else, after we've had to be someone else all day, everything starts to break down and fall apart because we just have nothing left. So we need to look for that alignment and spend 80 to 90% of our lives in those situations. So that that 10% of the time when some things are just simply unavoidable. What I think most of us do is the reverse. 10% is alignment and 90% is adjustment and adaptation. And that's not sustainable over time, and it just leads to all sorts of consequences.

So what folks listening to the podcast can't tell is that you're a freakishly tall guy who wears pink a lot.

Right.

So tell us about what it's like to be you traveling around the world and some of the characters you meet and what you've learned from that.

Yeah, well, you know, the pink comes from. I have three daughters and I've been married for 21 years to my wife. And I live in a house of all women. Even the dog's a girl.

It's a lot of estrogen in that house.

Yeah. And so I joke about, I tell a series of funny stories in my talks about how they're turning me into a woman. And that's where the pink started. It started with a pink shirt, and it started then with some pink shoes and then some pink socks. And then I finally found some pink pants. And recently I found a pink jacket. And the reason I did that was because it tied in with my message, but also because it's an example of being different. And I wanted to practice what I preach about sort of standing out and being yourself and being unashamed. The subtitle is Discovering Uniqueness by Flaunting Weakness and Flaunt means to Parade without Shame. And I wanted to do something that was sort of the opposite of people's expectations. Men can wear pink shirts. They can even wear pink shorts. I rarely, rarely, rarely see Men wearing pink shoes, but the pink pants, Once I started doing that, I think three or four times, maybe in four years of non stop travel, have I seen a guy wearing pink pants. It really messes with people's expectations and leads to a lot of interesting conversations. And what I've learned, interestingly enough, traveling around the world, sometimes people say, you know, Dave, that's a nice concept, but it only works in developed countries. Dave, you have a nice concept, but you can only find the right fit when you're in a first world economy or when the economy's going well. And what I found is I was in nine countries in the last 45 days speaking all over the world. Pakistan, the Middle East, Amsterdam, Australia, speaking in Canada. Is people all over the world are interested in this message and they see, just like you did, how it can apply to their marriage, how it applies to their business. I mean, the guy who introduced me in Pakistan talked about how he took this home and saw how he was calm but emotionless, and it frustrated his wife, but his wife was passionate but angry. And once they saw each other's strengths and weaknesses and started to be aware and accept and appreciate, it improved their marriage. And then he talked about how it helped him at work and helped him in the way he led people. And then he talked about how it helped him in the way that he made decisions in his own career, in his own work. And so what I found is, as much as I encourage difference, is that when I travel, it seems like the message is that people are far more similar in our goals and our expectations. The media tends to demonize people from certain places and certain cultures and certain religions and certain backgrounds. And, you know, the number one thing that people told me on Facebook when I went to Pakistan was be safe. You know, and what I discovered when I was there is that, you know, if you didn't know you were there, you'd think you were anywhere else. You know, the people that I met and the goals that they had and the things they were trying to accomplish were very, very similar. And so I found the message really resonates without much adjustment, really all over the world. And that's really encouraging that people are looking for this new perspective, and they're looking and they're excited about the idea that there's something better in themselves and others than they thought.

That's a great message. And I had similar experience in speaking and working in Pakistan as you did, that it's a surprising place that doesn't fit the popular or the prevailing image that we have in the United States in any event. At the same time, though, I also discovered that my own style of courageous authenticity and, and sort of powerful interactions and intimate connections in a very public way didn't work so well in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, they were like, oh, don't go there, dude.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's too public.

Yeah, no, and that's a great example. There's places where we don't get to be ourselves as much and where they don't value that and where in some senses the freedoms don't exist. And that's certainly true. And then that goes back to alignment. You know, you and I, for example, are probably not going to start Saudi Arabian divisions of what we do. But somebody, for example, who had a very professional, conservative, straightforward, sort of efficient business management approach could do very, very well there. But the sort of, the entertaining, like you said, irreverent, unconventional sort of approach that you and I have, I think certainly would resonate with a lot of people from Saudi Arabia, but is very difficult to execute in those situations because of some of the restrictions that are.

In place in the public setting in a private conversation.

That's exactly right. Yep, yep.

What's acceptable in each environment is totally different. That's beautiful. Well, so we got a picture of it and then so what from here, what do folks do? How do we apply this? What's the excess?

Yeah. So on my website, a simple thing is I have my TedX presentation on there. It's a good 20 minute sort of overview of the concept. It's a great way for people to share it or learn a little bit more about it, hear a little bit more about the difficulties I have in the airplane bathrooms. I think that the next step, if people really want to take it further, is to get the book. Because the key part of the book is the assessment that shows them the connections between their strengths and weaknesses. And also the new version of the book, I just updated it last year and it has a chapter at the end on marriage. It has a chapter at the end on parenting. It has a chapter on managing people. It has a chapter on being an entrepreneur. It has a chapter on managing your own career. It has a chapter on company strategy. So it takes the concept and as I learned over the year, it applies over the years. It applies to so many different things. After writing the book five or six years ago that I wanted to give people some specifics on how to apply that. I also wrote a book called the Freak Factor for Kids because so many people see the application Sort of for kids and for parenting and for, hey, my kid's got adhd, my kid's got dyslexia. And so I wrote a book, an illustrated children's book to help kids see that what makes them weird makes them wonderful. And what makes them weak also makes them strong. And that the things they're getting in trouble for and the things they're getting teased for and the things they wish they could change about themselves are probably, probably going to be the things as adults that turn out to be the best things about them. And by changing that perspective at a young age, I think we're giving them a better chance to sort of have real success and real happiness. And that's also a. I, I wanted that to be shared as much as absolutely possible. And so I actually turned the books on Amazon. Both of my books are on Amazon and on Kindle and things. But I also turned the kids book into a YouTube video that's free. If you just Google Freak factor for kids, it'll pop up. And I had somebody read it and do the illustrations and everything. So you can just watch the book right there on YouTube.

Hey, what ages is that good for? I haven't seen that yet.

Yeah, yeah, that's good for, I mean, pretty much anybody you'd read a book to up until when kids are getting, you know, once. Once kids get out of the books that have pictures in them, that's sort of the age at which it stops. So, you know, somewhere around 8, 9, 10, depending on the kid, and all the way down to, you know, you can read it to a 3, 4, 5 year old. I mean, even really little kids get that stuff at a level that, you know, you wouldn't expect. I mean, little kids make fun of other kids for being fat and for being short and for wearing glasses and for having curly hair and for having red hair and for having different color skin and for all sorts of things, and for not being athletic or being clumsy or not being good at reading. I mean, little kids, you know, learn real early that they'll get made fun of for being odd and that they should or will make fun of other kids for being strange. And so I wrote that book to kind of give kids a different perspective on their own uniqueness and hopefully have them accept other people as well.

I think it's brilliant what you say. This is a business podcast about scaling up your business and so on. And yet time and again, while the focus is on growing cash and growing and profit and even the top line in companies, who does that? Is people. And the hardest thing most often that CEOs and entrepreneurs cite is their people. They're like, God, I love my business. It's just the people that's tough, right? And yet if you don't get good at working with people, then. And it's where we all. It all starts with who. So if you want to do anything significant, anything substantial, it's if you've got a big, hairy, audacious goal that you're working on, inspired by, you're going to have to use some people. You can't do anything substantial. And so you've got to get good at people and figure out where your differences can become, strengths in that area, what you're not good at, what you are good at, and what the access to, developing your own appreciation for yourself and for the people around you. And it applies to. To every area of your life, which is fabulous, because our work doesn't stop when we go home. It still impacts us whether we think about it actively or not. And our home life doesn't stop when we go to work. We're still thinking about that. We're still engaged in grappling with that and dealing with it emotionally and so on. And every age there's something you say, it can start even at three. And I'm reminded of that I've been involved in leadership development work for at least 15 years, and it's remarkable to me when my kids say stuff to me just unconsciously. Well, that's just the blah, blah, blah, dad. And I'm like, oh, Jesus, I didn't even intend for them to get something like that. But they got that. And then of course, they flip it back on me.

I think there's two just at the end here. I think there's really quick. There's two real big applications for your audience, and one is in the own work, in our own work as business owners, we need to look for that affiliation, right? If you're not the people manager, if you are the numbers guy or the sales guy, or you just, you're the innovation guy or whatever it happens to be, there's. There's a point at which you, you bring other people in, right? You get other people involved, you bring in partners, you get a COO who manages the details. If you're the big picture person, you bring somebody in to do the innovation. If you're the detail and application person, if you're the lady who really likes to get out there and connect with people and build relationships, but you need someone to do more of the Back office sort of stuff, you need to partner with somebody. And the other part that we haven't talked about yet is sort of the strategic part that oftentimes we think, but.

You know what, hold the strategic thing. So that's really, really valuable for people to get. There's this notion that we'll just try a little harder, we'll do a better job, we'll be a better person next time. And yet time and again we don't. And everybody who comes in to interview with us, especially early in their careers, is communicating, self starting, team player, creative solution. And their only weakness is they just care too much and it's all nonsense. And then you get to be maybe our age and you start to say, actually, you know what, I'm a terrible operator and every time I've not had a good operations partner, my businesses have sucked. And yet when I recognize that and say, you know what, you wouldn't want to hire me to come in and run your business, but I can coach your team and get some things done that would blow your mind so that, like, stop trying so hard to be who you aren't and never will be.

Yeah, and that's a part of scaling up too. I think sometimes people do scale up their business and it gets so big that it requires them now to be someone they weren't at the beginning and they think it's time to grow up, be a professional, do more Excel spreadsheets, have more meetings, put on a suit, and that's not who they are. And yet they think I will be or I need to be or it's every year's New Year's resolution and at some point it's not. Sell it, partner with somebody, hire a professional manager, get yourself a coo, start over and do another startup and just be the, you know, just be the visionary board chairman of the venture that you started first. We don't have to be the person for every level of our business. And thinking that we have to oftentimes destroys the best things about us and leads us to a lot of ineffectiveness as well, because sometimes there's someone better who can run that business than we can. Like you said, they're an operator and we're not. We're an innovator, we're a developer. We're a person who creates something out of nothing, but doesn't enjoy, you know, working for 4% change quarter over quarter. That's just not our, not our thing.

Then I think you were going also to the strategic piece to wrap it around from the individual to the whole organization and talk about what makes our companies weird.

Yeah, because you're not going to be for every customer, you're not going to be for every industry. You're not going to be a solution for every problem. And your thing isn't perfect. It costs too much or it, it's too complex or whatever it has to be. But there's somebody out there who thinks you get what you pay for and they want to pay more. There's a person who understands that their problem is complex and they're looking for a complex solution. You know, I give all sorts of examples in the book about companies who really play on weaknesses and see that there's an upside. You know, the classic triangle in building is if you want something, you can either have something that's, that's fast, you can have something that's high quality, or you can have something that's inexpensive. But you don't get all three. Right. You can always pick two out of three. There's always going to be trade offs and we have to get comfortable about in our business. What are those trade offs? What are the things we don't do for people so that we can do other things for people? We're not the cheapest or we're not the fastest or we're not the highest quality, but we're not the highest quality because we're the cheapest or because we're the fastest and we stop apologizing for that and we actually brag about it. It's not the best, but it'll be there tomorrow. Or it's not the cheapest, but that's because it's the best or whatever it happens to be. Those are simple examples. But I show in the book how there's a number of very, very successful companies who've used that. And too often we're busy trying to sort of adjust to every customer and apologize for every issue. I mean, when you tell Walmart you had a bad service experience, when you hang up the phone after complaining to them, they high five each other. They're not trying to give you good service, they're trying to lower their costs. And the fact that you stayed and still bought the stuff and the fact that you even went into a Walmart proves that you value saving money over your psychological and emotional well being. They're not trying to be, you know, target and Target isn't trying to give you the lowest prices and they never pretend that they are. And so we need to be more like that in our businesses. We need to be comfortable. And even I use an example of all hotels in Canada. Their whole slogan is we do less. And they brag about the things they don't do and who they don't serve. And people. It's really refreshing to have a company say, you know, in a sense this is not for you or this is exactly for you, but it isn't perfect. We do just this and we don't do this and we won't do this for you and we, we can't do this for you. And it's so honest and so refreshing that it gets people's attention and it drives our businesses forward. So yeah, the concept of weakness being strength works in business as well. And if we can be aware of our businesses strengths and weaknesses and accept and appreciate them and amplify them, we can have greater success as well.

Well as in ourselves. So in our companies that awareness and personal discovery and organizational discovery is an access to find the things that we do really well. So figure out your freak factor, get your freak on and we'll have loads of all the links and things like that in the show notes. Dave, it's been a pleasure to have you on, on the show today and thanks so much.

Thanks a lot, Bill.

See you around.

Sa.